Comic Vine Battle of the Week VOTING: Black Widow vs. Talon

An how does that happen from 20ft apart? She'd have to lose him and snipe him from from his blindspot....which is impossible given that, as long has he protects his head, nothing she does will stop him for anything even close to a decent length of time for her to create that sort of defense.

Not to mention that Cobb has the (blitzing) speed advantage and stealth.

I didn't say it happens right when the match starts. Heck, I didn't even say I believe it's probable or not. I pointed out the option exists and it does because she obviously has firearms in the match. It's up to the debaters to prove whether or not she can accomplish that. I don't offer my verdict until Friday.

How is he blitzing? If Batman can outmatch him while he's out of his suit and trying to not fight him to the fullest extent of his abilities and after he's been run ragged without proper nourishment and sleep for a period of a few days, then I seriously doubt his stated abilities are as you've described.

@vmole: You think Black Widow can do any better against Wayne?

Are we talking about dealing with him under the circumstances that Cobb attempted to engage Batman? Against a malnourished and obviously mentally and physically battered Bruce Wayne, I wouldn't put it past her to just shoot him and be done with it rather than trying to psychologically and physically torture him. The instance in the labyrinth was jarringly poor and underwhelming as far as Cobb's performance went considering that he was up against a Batman that was physically and mentally bottomed out to the point where he was cracking like an egg, and the fact that he couldn't even take him while they were freefalling and Bruce wasn't even in his suit or even trying his best can also be counted as a strike against him.

I mean we can continue debating on how this fight can somehow end up in a hand-to-hand engagement, but I also believe that this fight can end with a bullet in Cobb's head and him spending a lot of time recuperating from it.

@vmole: True, but Cobbs pretty agile and incredibly fast, also given his recent showings I would say it would devolve into h2h pretty fast, and your right Widow could just shoot Wayne, don't know why it didn't occur to me

Talon.

I voted for neither. Cobb is suppose to be awesome, but all arguments for him is abc logic of what other talons did. BW has all these showings, but no one ca. Post any feats for her to prove why she can win. Both equally suck here.

Talon, aside from his pretty fast regeneration, and extreme durability and Sub-Par Immortality, i say he has this, it wont be easy, but i don't think she will fair any better than Dick did

@cadencev2 said:

I can't disagree with you about Talon (even though I voted for him, lol), but here's some stuff for Black Widow.

In Black Widow #3, Natasha fights Elektra to a standstill despite undergoing major surgery a few days before:

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Black Widow: Homecoming #1— Natasha cripples some dude for fun, I guess, you can see how fast she's moving by the cup dropping from her hand.

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Marvel Two-in-One #10— Natasha fights off 100 armed men, alone.

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Punisher/Black Widow OGN: Natasha accurately judges & deflects Frank's bullet, then uses the distraction to sneak up on him.

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Wolverine #125: Natasha knocks out the Phoenix with one kick, easily handles Psylocke, Viper, Jessica Drew and such.

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Daredevil #368-369: Natasha shoots Daredevil. This isn't so much about beating Daredevil, but Natasha's aim is good enough that she can deliberately ricochet a bullet off his rib cage, causing him minimal harm despite shooting him in the chest.

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One time she singlehandedly defeated X-Force, I guess:

There's also various feats that show Natasha's perception and her cunning. Two that come to mind are that Natasha was the one Avenger to suspect something was wrong with Jessica Drew before Secret Invasion:

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And Natasha was also the first (and only) person to discover the Thunderbolts were really the Masters of Evil.

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@oy_the_billy_bumbler said:

@cadencev2 said:

I voted for neither. Cobb is suppose to be awesome, but all arguments for him is abc logic of what other talons did. BW has all these showings, but no one ca. Post any feats for her to prove why she can win. Both equally suck here.

I can't disagree with you about Talon (even though I voted for him, lol), but here's some stuff for Black Widow.

In Black Widow #3, Natasha fights Elektra to a standstill despite undergoing major surgery a few days before:

Gallery

Black Widow: Homecoming #1— Natasha cripples some dude for fun, I guess, you can see how fast she's moving by the cup dropping from her hand.

Gallery

Marvel Two-in-One #10— Natasha fights off 100 armed men, alone.

Gallery

Punisher/Black Widow OGN: Natasha accurately judges & deflects Frank's bullet, then uses the distraction to sneak up on him.

Gallery

Wolverine #125: Natasha knocks out the Phoenix with one kick, easily handles Psylocke, Viper, Jessica Drew and such.

Gallery

Daredevil #368-369: Natasha shoots Daredevil. This isn't so much about beating Daredevil, but Natasha's aim is good enough that she can deliberately ricochet a bullet off his rib cage, causing him minimal harm despite shooting him in the chest.

Gallery

Gallery

One time she singlehandedly defeated X-Force, I guess:

There's also various feats that show Natasha's perception and her cunning. Two that come to mind are that Natasha was the one Avenger to suspect something was wrong with Jessica Drew before Secret Invasion:

Gallery

And Natasha was also the first (and only) person to discover the Thunderbolts were really the Masters of Evil.

Gallery

What you mean he lacks feats, dafuq, first i will explain then i will show, Talon put up a good fight against Batman, he survived getting Impaled in the Chest, a Baton Chucked in his Eye, Neck Being Snapped All the Way Around, Heals Quickly after her falls out of the building, and before that he was toying with Nightwing, but still winning, she wont be able to put him down, he heals almost like Wolverine

Even generic talons can dent steel doors. So I'd say Cobb has the strength edge.

Otherwise, I'll have to think on this some more.

lol, do people hate Black Widow or something? Seems like absolutely no one gives her any respect on this site. I'm no expert on the character, but I'm sure she has enough feats that wouldn't make people say things like, "Batman could hold back on Black Widow and still beat her on her best day". Is she really thatbad?

@rainja:

Amazing write-up. You r right, widow can KO Talon... that's enough for a victory. My vote is going to widow

i guess people don't find her engaging enough to care

Relative lack of knowledge of Widow in general with a pinch of fanboyism for Batman. I mean I've acknowledged Black Widow's presence for a really long time but I still know next to crap about what she is really capable of, but I don't write her off as a pushover due to my own lack of knowledge.

I'm glad it's not just me that thinks this. I'm not saying that Widow would beat Batman, I'm just sick of seeing comments like that without an explanation as to why. I just wanna know what she's done for people to place her so low in their ranks.

@oy_the_billy_bumbler said:

@cadencev2 said:

I voted for neither. Cobb is suppose to be awesome, but all arguments for him is abc logic of what other talons did. BW has all these showings, but no one ca. Post any feats for her to prove why she can win. Both equally suck here.

I can't disagree with you about Talon (even though I voted for him, lol), but here's some stuff for Black Widow.

In Black Widow #3, Natasha fights Elektra to a standstill despite undergoing major surgery a few days before:

Gallery

Black Widow: Homecoming #1— Natasha cripples some dude for fun, I guess, you can see how fast she's moving by the cup dropping from her hand.

Gallery

Marvel Two-in-One #10— Natasha fights off 100 armed men, alone.

Gallery

Punisher/Black Widow OGN: Natasha accurately judges & deflects Frank's bullet, then uses the distraction to sneak up on him.

Gallery

Wolverine #125: Natasha knocks out the Phoenix with one kick, easily handles Psylocke, Viper, Jessica Drew and such.

Gallery

Daredevil #368-369: Natasha shoots Daredevil. This isn't so much about beating Daredevil, but Natasha's aim is good enough that she can deliberately ricochet a bullet off his rib cage, causing him minimal harm despite shooting him in the chest.

Gallery

Gallery

One time she singlehandedly defeated X-Force, I guess:

There's also various feats that show Natasha's perception and her cunning. Two that come to mind are that Natasha was the one Avenger to suspect something was wrong with Jessica Drew before Secret Invasion:

Gallery

And Natasha was also the first (and only) person to discover the Thunderbolts were really the Masters of Evil.

Gallery

Winning. I already caste too close to call, but now I would lean to BW.

From what little I've seen of Cobb's performance from the scans provided from here and other sources in his more notorious fights against Batman, he really doesn't seem to be living up to the hype that the general consensus on this thread seems to impose. He couldn't finish off a drugged, disheveled, and nearly broken Batman in the maze, and he couldn't even reliably kill him when Batman wasn't even geared up and fighting under optimal conditions at the tower.

What would Cobb's more recent showings imply that he has gotten better since then? Because the initial impression of Cobb's own abilities is pretty weak to me personally.

Cobb handily,Batman and Bane are the only 2 characters that have managed to manhandle Talons(and they'llmanhandle Widow as well),every other street level character such as Nightwing,Jason Todd,Catwoman,Batwing,the Birds of Prey etc have struggled against these guys immensely,and could only beat them through deus ex machina.

Cobb is agile, strong, feel no pain and has a healing factor. Though he never did take out Bruce in a forward confrontation, and a half-dead Bruce H2H stomped Cobb hard. So H2H can go either way if BW goes fast and hard on him and break his neck, she maybe able to take him out that way... but with Cobb's stats the odds of a quick victory is highly unlikely.

In addition, Cobb caught the Dark Knight off-guard in more than 5 different situations, with three occasions being prepped ahead, while one of the other two occasion has Cobb sneaked up on Bruce and steal his belt, and the other one has Cobb sneaked up on Bruce and straight up stabbed him. If Cobb can sneak up on Bruce, he CAN sneak up on BW. Then again, Bruce had to refrain himself from killing Cobb before he discovered that Cobb has a healing factor, which I think that's part of the reason why Bruce was subdued in the first place. If it was BW in that situation, she would just turn around and swiftly slice Cobb's throat.

Also, the Talons' glaring weakness are, surprisingly, ... bullets! The likes of Penguin and a dying Lincoln March were able to take out two Talons with shots to the head. BW's standard equipments do include guns, and she's excellent with them.

Bottomline, the Talons are great fighters and predators, but they're mostly instinctive and generally mindless. So I think if Cobb was to go against BW, sneaking or straight up H2H, he would be greeted by a lifetime of fighting experiences, followed by a bullet to the face.

KO with a bullet to the face, Black Widow wins. Then she cuts off Cobb's head and hang it as trophy.

@k4anarky: Just to clear up some things the Talons arnt mindless they have shown multipy times they can clearly think they just follow orders to a fualt and Widow is what around 30 years old Cobb is well over a hundard so he has her beat in experiance and while one shot can KO a Talon but that dosnt mean she can hit him remember this is Cobb the best Talon so he isnt going to get taken out as easily as those other Talons

@owie: Tim and never faced talon to my knowledge. Just to clear that up for you. The rest of the stuff you said about talons skill was correct though.

They are also extremely durable too. One fell from a thirty story window and got up minutes later and killed the paramedic taking him to the hospital. Bruce also put over 100 pounds of force on his windpipe and he was completely unphased.

You cant compare those guys with Cobb,all Talons have shown different levels of healing abilities,the Talon that faced Damian Wayne walked straight in to gunfire and came out unscathed and not just any gunfire but high caliber rifle round being fired by dozens of soldiers.

Agreed. All Talons are different,Cobb has the best skill.

this is extremely well thought out and while there are some points i disagree with here or there I still think this is a, overall, good post... @k4tzm4n possible Viner argument of the week? i wouldnt count it out

I agree. I'm not at all sure Natasha would win this, but she is constantly put down on this site, not just in this thread but all the time. It is true that her in-universe reputation as one of the very best assassins isn't totally supported by her on-panel feats. But that doesn't excuse the way people talk about her. I see the same thing with Elektra. I don't think it's straight-up misogyny, but I think it's tied in there.

I've updated the BW respect thread a bit. I think it's fair to say she has a fair amount of pain tolerance and durability herself..and that's not counting the absurd fight towards the end of Infinity where she and Shang Chi and someone else who I forget take on a whole army of aliens, including Black Dwarf. She gets hit by Dwarf pretty solid and gets right back up and fights some more. It was bad writing, honestly, but a solid showing.

@owie: It was extremely out of character, she took a hit from a dude who was able to down and draw blood from Gladiator after one hit

Yes, it was bad writing. Black Dwarf's power levels went up and down significantly throughout the series.

@owie: yeah, at one point Black Panther (not discounting his improved power levels) managed to beat him and apparently break his arm

Talon. But from what I hear on BW it should be a close fight.

@micah: Batman is the only exception, He was the only real challenge he must have had because from what I have seen the courts doing! they only kill off political or sociably powerful people. And from have been shown, NONE of the courts Targets besides Bruce Wayne who we all know as batman was the only exception.

@admiral_ironbeast: Thanks....the sad part is I actually like Cobb as a Talon and prefer him over widow but facts or facts.

@lordofthenorth: Cobb didn't really fight Bruce, it was just a sequence of ambushes and attacks before Cobb got his butt kicked by a half-dead Bruce in front of the Court.

Natasha is 30-something, and she was trained to kill as a kid. And that means possibly 25 - 30 years of fighting experiences. Cobb was trained as a circus juggler, and he only officially trained as a Talon when he was 20 before he was put on ice by the Court. So technically he has less experiences than BW.

BW still has the edge on Cobb with superior skill and more fighting experiences, as well as already having the right equipment for the right target.

@k4anarky: so what that dosnt change anything i said before besides half-dead Batman would stomp Widow as well so they are even

@lordofthenorth said:

The comment system went bonkers on me. My counter argument is above.

Natasha Romanova is not 30 something. She's closer to 90 and most of that life was spent as a super master assassin . As a teenager she met Captain America and Wolverine during WWII. She started her training as Black Widow shortly after the war. This process included instruction from top combatants like the Winter Soldier and infusions of Soviet Super Soldier Serum. So Black Widow is almost as old as Talon, but probably much more experienced. As all of the time he spent circus juggling or being dead she spent kicking ass.

Also, why is anybody listing off regeneration feats for Talon as if they were points in his favor? If your main argument is "Look what he can get back up from!" he's already lost. It doesn't matter if Cobb can or can not get back up after being shot through the head or tossed off a building or whatever sort of super master assassin crap Black Widow can throw at him. If he doesn't heal from it instantly (he doesn't) then it counts as win for Natasha in this scenario.

Personally, I'm still not 100% convinced Black Widow wins this a majority of the time. But that's due to being really impressed with Cobb's strength and speed rather than criminally underestimating his opponent.

I think I'm going to vote too close to call. Unless somebody can show me Black Widow successfully shooting or overpowering somebody with similar enhanced abilities like Cap or Deadpool or somebody. Or really sell me on William Cobb. Something other than that one speed burst through two extras or "Look what he can get back up from!" please.

@gaztacular: Keep in mind Cobb is a relatively new character, and all that can be said and inferred about him has already been said in the previous comments, i suggest you look back through those and if you still think Widow can't take him or not sold on Cobb then I would vote too close to call. Also Talons have been trained (I think) from birth in the art of assassination and with the whole cryo sleep thing, have lived and gathered experience for decades, so in terms of skill I think they would be even and Cobb was also a recruit from Haleys Circus, so i'm pretty sure he can dodge widows bullets

OK, I'm going to post a few scans here from the comics ledger respect thread, plus a few I had put on her Vine thread recently. (BTW, all of a sudden I can't open any thumbnails, using any browser [thus the spoiler blocks]--anyone else having that problem?)

The emphasis I want to make her is that she is fast, agile and capable of dodging well, that she is durable and pain-resistant, and that she even tanks attacks in order to get in her own strike.

Dodging machine gun and laser fire (note in one of them she's disguised with blonde hair):

Oh yeah, a few more acrobatically dodging machine gun scans:

Pain tolerance and hard-coreness. Ignores a bullet wound to her stomach, intentionally lets herself get stabbed in the shoulder to avoid getting hit in the torso. Then in the last two, she has been drugged so she can't talk. She wakes up to find herself in major abdominal surgery. She knows she can't move, or the surgeons might kill her by accident. So even though she can feel everything they do to her, she keeps herself totally still.

In this next one, she mixes speed, agility, pain tolerance and durability. First, she is at point blank range for an ex-SHIELD sniper guy. Knowing this is too close to totally dodge (because this is being presented in a more realistic manner), she runs up, intentionally lets him shoot her in the shoulder and kicks him. Later, she falls off the multi-story building and survives. Then she jumps across an alley, after having been shot and falling off the building. I skipped some pages in the middle, these are the important pages.

Stealth/speed: Drugs Lady Deathstrike without her knowing it.

A few fights: she fights some drugged out zombie general guy, dodging effortlessly and with great agility before taking him out. She beats Imus, a clearly strong, highly skilled guy (supposedly a master of all martial arts) who has taken on the Avengers before (when he used tech). She easily beats a crazed Mockingbird. She beats Alexi (Red Guardian/Ronin) her ex-husband and the USSR version of Captain America.

She takes on Iron Ivan. She dodges the hail of laser hire, gets up close, and takes him out with the Widow's Bite. This is essentially how I think it will go down in her battle with Talon, although obviously Talon is more agile than Iron Ivan. I'll expand on this idea in my next post.

I'd also like to point out that she carries armored gloves capable of stopping a blade even when a civilian, which would come in handy when fighting a guy with bladed weapons.

That wrap up the scans. Next, my argument.

I've been thinking about this thread for a couple days now. My immediate reaction was that Talon crushes Natasha due to his stats, record against Batman, and healing factor. She has the skill edge, but that was all, in my mind. But I had forgotten that Natasha's stats are also enhanced to a degree. And that the Bat family second-stringers didn't get killed immediately, and that Batman, for instance, was able to survive fighting a whole horde of them on his own for quite some time before he had to get into his Bat-armor. And the more I thought about her edge in weapons, the more I moved over to her winning.

Here's how I see it.

They start 20 feet apart. From this distance, either could attack with ranged weapons. Natasha could shoot with guns or her Widow's Bite, and Talon could throw knives at her. While Natasha is a cold-blooded assassin, I kind of doubt she is going to just shoot him right off the bat. She would usually go for a submission against an opponent unless she knew the guy deserved to die. It's possible she'd shoot, but I don't think so. Cobb may throw some knives at her, but she's extremely agile and I have no doubt she'll dodge those.

So they'll close. Up close, I think Talon would ultimately overwhelm her. She has the skill edge, but his physicals are still above hers by some degree and he is pretty skilled on his own. But Natasha is a smart fighter. Once she gets in there and realizes what he's like, she's going to put her emphasis on dodging, and I think she is capable of doing this reasonably effectively against him, at least for a time. Even if he hits her with a blade, she is durable and able to resist pain, and can tough it out. Then she is going to go for her Bite. 30,000 volts from both arms at point blank range is not going to miss, and while he may survive it, he is going to be KOed long enough for it to count as a win.

Basically it comes down to this. Talon is skilled and strong and regenerative enough to kill her in a long hand-to-hand session. But he is not good enough to kill her immediately, even with bladed weapons. And since she has a game-ending weapon, and is good enough to survive long enough to use it, that's what she's going to do.

Damn @Owie's post has convinced me that Widow is definitely under-respected on here. I think that's convinced me to vote for her in this week's battle article.

I don't understand why people are using feats from other Talons. It's like me trying to use feats from other Avengers to explain why Widow wins.

....Erik?

Yes?

How are you back?

WTF?

I needed time to regenerate is all. :p

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: why is it such a shock to see him here what happened to him?

Well hopefully you get to stay man.

He was banned about a year ago.