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Edited 7 months, 22 days ago

Poll: Comic Vine Battle of the Week VOTING: Black Widow vs. Talon (323 votes)

Black Widow 37%
Talon 59%
Too close to call 5%

To celebrate Black Widow's new series (by Nathan Edmondson and Phil Noto), we thought it would be really fun to give the Avenger a real challenge. This week, she's facing off against Bane's latest ally in ARKHAM WAR: the Talon named William Cobb. Will the Marvel hero overcome or will the DC villain claim the victory? Well, it turns out that'll be up to you. Yeah, you. We know that's a lot of pressure, so don't feel rushed to vote if you're not sure how this fight would go down. The poll will be open until Friday morning (ET), so that should give you plenty of time to research both characters and then cast your vote/speak your mind in the debate.

Comic Vine Battle of the Week Rules

  • Random encounter (aka no prep).
  • In character.
  • Standard gear.
  • Knockout, incapacitation or death all count as elimination. Making a tactical retreat counts as a loss, too.
  • They're fighting in a generic downtown city setting. It's unpopulated, at night and all standard city lights remain on. They start roughly 20 feet apart and visible. There's a lot of cover between them (a variety of idle vehicles, bus stops, dumpster bins, benches, etc.). The entire city region is on limits (rooftops, inside buildings, alleyways, sewers, etc.).
  • It's not mandatory, but if you take time to vote, elaborating as well would be extra awesome. Keep things informative and your post could be the next Viner Argument of the Week!

Again, it would be extra cool if you could get your elaboration on as well. If you vote for a side, be sure to tell us why. Oh, and do try to remember this is just a conversation about fictional characters fighting, so keep things informative and not personal.

Viners, you have the week to research, debate and vote! This means there's no reason to vote right away if you don't have all of the info you need to make an educated decision. Check the homepage Friday for an updated article with the following:

  • Thoughts from the CV staff.
  • A Viner Argument in favor of the poll's winner (can't include scans and must be in the poll thread).
  • If we're lucky, blurbs from industry talent.

Feel free to make future match suggestions in the comments below or via Gregg's Twitter page.

#1 Posted by dondave (37404 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n In regards to things like healing factors, can showings from other Talons be used?

#2 Edited by djliem (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Since knockout is considered as elimination then healing and regeneration dont matter i think.

#3 Edited by fandango (2 posts) - - Show Bio

Talon for the win

#4 Posted by Dstick88 (122 posts) - - Show Bio

Talons are near unkillable, widow has more stories to go by, but id put my money on Talon

#5 Edited by k4tzm4n (43911 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@k4tzm4n In regards to things like healing factors, can showings from other Talons be used?

If you think they're applicable, go for it and explain why.

@djliem said:

Since knockout is considered as elimination then healing and regeneration dont matter i think.

Yes, it means she has the ability to defeat him, but it'll still make him tough to put down and help him endure quite a bit of damage. I'd say it matters -- it doesn't render him undefeatable -- but it matters.

Staff Online
#6 Posted by Jonez120 (4324 posts) - - Show Bio

Talon, one was beating the sh!t out of Batman (before Batman turned the tide)

#7 Edited by Jonny_Anonymous (33377 posts) - - Show Bio

Aw I thought this was going to be Calvin Rose :- (

#8 Posted by clemj (817 posts) - - Show Bio

since batman>black widow and bats with no knowledge<talon

this is a random encounter

#9 Edited by kidman560 (7577 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Posted by patrat18 (9761 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonez120 said:

Talon, one was beating the sh!t out of Batman (before Batman turned the tide)

Batman was druged. Batman beat the piss out o him while falling out of a tower, without his suit.

#11 Edited by k4tzm4n (43911 posts) - - Show Bio

@clemj said:

since batman>black widow and bats with no knowledge<talon

this is a random encounter

That's not accurate, though. Batman -- unarmed and drugged/weakened -- knocked out Talon. Prior to that, he even commented that he had to hold back while fighting Talon in his civvies, and even then he did fine.

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#12 Posted by asjmooney (149 posts) - - Show Bio

Widow's tech will give her the edge over this. Talon's strong but only deals in melee weapons. He'd have to get close to her and Widow is too smart to let that happen. Talon's are hard to kill but could be immobilized easy enough by Widow.

#13 Posted by patrat18 (9761 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@clemj said:

since batman>black widow and bats with no knowledge<talon

this is a random encounter

That's not accurate, though. Batman -- unarmed and drugged/weakened -- knocked out Talon. Prior to that, he even commented that he had to hold back while fighting Talon in his civvies, and even then he did fine.

Batman holding back would beat Widow on her best day in h2h. Just saying.

#14 Edited by asjmooney (149 posts) - - Show Bio

If these two can take on two Talons (specifically Catwoman with only a whip and some cleavage) then Widow definitely wouldn't have a problem.

#15 Edited by micah (1373 posts) - - Show Bio

@asjmooney: it should be noted that some talons are better than others, if I'm correct. Cobb is the deadliest Talon

#16 Posted by k4tzm4n (43911 posts) - - Show Bio

@patrat18 said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@clemj said:

since batman>black widow and bats with no knowledge<talon

this is a random encounter

That's not accurate, though. Batman -- unarmed and drugged/weakened -- knocked out Talon. Prior to that, he even commented that he had to hold back while fighting Talon in his civvies, and even then he did fine.

Batman holding back would beat Widow on her best day in h2h. Just saying.

Of course and no one should dispute that. However, the point was to correct "Talon > Batman in a random encounter."

Staff Online
#17 Posted by patrat18 (9761 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@patrat18 said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@clemj said:

since batman>black widow and bats with no knowledge<talon

this is a random encounter

That's not accurate, though. Batman -- unarmed and drugged/weakened -- knocked out Talon. Prior to that, he even commented that he had to hold back while fighting Talon in his civvies, and even then he did fine.

Batman holding back would beat Widow on her best day in h2h. Just saying.

Of course and no one should dispute that. However, the point was to correct "Talon > Batman in a random encounter."

Agreed!

#18 Posted by patrat18 (9761 posts) - - Show Bio

@micah said:

@asjmooney: it should be noted that some talons are better than others, if I'm correct. Cobb is the deadliest Talon

He is.

#19 Posted by Owie (3736 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't read the Talon series, or the appearances of the various Talons in other non-Batman comics. So I am looking to be educated there. But my impression from the main Batman series was that they're superhumanly strong, fast, and have a decent healing factor, and are fairly skilled. Seeing the scan above of Catwoman and Batgirl makes me think that they may not all be quite so tough as the one(s) Batman faced. And I assume the rest of the Bat family like Tim, Dick, and Jason all managed to overcome Talons at one time or another? If that's the case, then Natasha, who does have some peak-human-ish enhancement due to the SSS, and skill that's probably somewhere in the Robin range, as well as her Bite, should be able to deal with one on at least even levels. I'll be interested to see what feats people can post for this Talon.

#20 Posted by worldFlash (43 posts) - - Show Bio

I would say Talon would win. Yeah, she has more books, so we have more information to go on, but from what I know on Talon is that he is nearly unkillable and is only susceptible to low temperatures. Since there is no prep time for Natasha she would have a hard time. First she would fire some guns, which wont do anything as we saw in Batman and Robin #9 - Robin Hears a Hoo and Red Hood and the Outlaws #9 - Who are You? -- Hoo Hoo?. She then would use her firsts and top of the line martial arts abilities, but the Talons all have those and Cobb is known as the greatest of all Talons and his counterparts were able to fight against many other great martial artists as well and came close to beating them. IAlthough Cobb was shown losing to Batman after he was exhausted to the point of death, which I didn't like because it was unrealistic and proof that Scott Snyder should stick to Fantasy; although he is a great writer, this was Batman, and Natasha I would say couldn't beat Nightwing or the recent Robin in hand to hand combat. So in my opinion the major turning point would be the fact that Natasha's methods wont work on Cobb because he can't be killed and since there is no prep time she couldn't know about his one weakness Cobb would also play smart and stay farther away from her with his throwing knives, which is his specialty as a Talon and would win majorly due to the range difference.

#21 Edited by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

Cobb has a bad track record against Batman, but then I don't really see Widow doing any better in the same situation. Beatdown in the Court of Owls' maze notwithstanding, Widow's options should essentially only be limited to gunplay, because I have a hard time seeing her fists and feet do much of consequence to someone who regenerated a half dozen broken bones in a few seconds during his fight with Nightwing.

And that's actually a pretty mild healing feat for the Talons --- others have survived having their necks snapped all the way around, shrugged off getting electrocuted and freaks like Felix Harmon have ripped out their own eyes, dug around the insides of their skull through the eye sockets, and then grown everything back without issue.

And with that, the shots Widow takes will basically have to blow Cobb's head off, because anything else will be gone in two seconds. In contrast, Cobb's got a lot more options than she does, and he throws those knives pretty damn fast. Any injuries he sustains won't weigh him down, while the ones Widow sustains will. He had a pretty good showing against various Arkham metas recently too, which I found most notable for him taking out Sumo by using an unconscious Firefly as a weapon. He's not averse to thinking on his feet either.

Moderator
#22 Edited by Saren (25674 posts) - - Show Bio

@patrat18 said:

@micah said:

@asjmooney: it should be noted that some talons are better than others, if I'm correct. Cobb is the deadliest Talon

He is.

He's not. Felix Harmon is by far the deadliest.

Moderator
#23 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12176 posts) - - Show Bio

Natasha can take a Cobb....her recent fight with Iron Scorpion should be proof enough.

#24 Posted by patrat18 (9761 posts) - - Show Bio

@saren said:

@patrat18 said:

@micah said:

@asjmooney: it should be noted that some talons are better than others, if I'm correct. Cobb is the deadliest Talon

He is.

He's not. Felix Harmon is by far the deadliest.

I thought he meant as in skill.

#25 Posted by asjmooney (149 posts) - - Show Bio

@micah: yeah I agree with that but Natasha is pretty deadly herself plus she will go for the kill blow if the opportunity arises (even if they are incredibly hard to kill) where the bat family would avoid that at all costs.

#26 Posted by Darkseid_Prime (171 posts) - - Show Bio

I was gonna write a paragraph to try to explain my answer, but it's too much work. Talon wins because skill. This is a fight, not a recon mission.

#27 Edited by Jayc1324 (12212 posts) - - Show Bio

Talon 9/10 too skilled strong and powerful

#28 Posted by mikep12 (4142 posts) - - Show Bio

Talon takes this after a good fight

#29 Edited by micah (1373 posts) - - Show Bio

@asjmooney: so will Cobb both will probably go for kill shots right off the bat, where I think Cobb takes it is his healing factor and skill with melee weapons if this fight gets close range

#30 Edited by dondave (37404 posts) - - Show Bio

@asjmooney said:

If these two can take on two Talons (specifically Catwoman with only a whip and some cleavage) then Widow definitely wouldn't have a problem.

Your scan is out of context, the Talons were able to defeat Batgirl and Catwoman.

#31 Edited by butters911 (262 posts) - - Show Bio

So she's fighting a Batman related character? On no, I wonder how the voting will turn out.

#32 Posted by RulerOfThisUniverse (6332 posts) - - Show Bio

Talon.

#33 Posted by Dark_Guyver (2315 posts) - - Show Bio

Talon

#34 Posted by laabitres (409 posts) - - Show Bio

talon hands down he dont play

#35 Posted by MisterWhisper (1914 posts) - - Show Bio

Debating here is kind of pointless.

We all know who is going to win here no matter what, you have a Batman villain vs. a long standing but honestly third tier marvel character.

#36 Posted by jashro44 (21645 posts) - - Show Bio

Debating here is kind of pointless.

We all know who is going to win here no matter what, you have a Batman villain vs. a long standing but honestly third tier marvel character.

From what I have seen you do a lot of complaining about how pointless it is to debate here it kind of make me wonder why you post here? Not trying to be mean but I am legitimately curious.

#37 Edited by lantian1 (161 posts) - - Show Bio

Are explosives a part of Black Widow's standard gear?

Also does Talon possess a weapon that can get through Widow's armor?

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#38 Posted by patrat18 (9761 posts) - - Show Bio

So she's fighting a Batman related character? On no, I wonder how the voting will turn out.

Typical. Can't come up with a decent reason why Widow would win, so you blame the votes on the BAT name.

#39 Edited by k4tzm4n (43911 posts) - - Show Bio

@butters911 said:

So she's fighting a Batman related character? On no, I wonder how the voting will turn out.

@misterwhisper said:

Debating here is kind of pointless.

We all know who is going to win here no matter what, you have a Batman villain vs. a long standing but honestly third tier marvel character.

Yeah, it's not like a good post has the potential to sway votes, earn the respect of your peers or get highlighted in Friday's article. Complaining is easy... doing something about it isn't. Go ahead and challenge yourself instead of taking the easy road.

Staff Online
#40 Edited by reaverlation (15842 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll wait this out and look forward to seeing how dangerous the talons are.

#41 Posted by Lvenger (19888 posts) - - Show Bio

Kudos to you for making such an interesting and unique match up this week Gregg. I'll enjoy being swayed by the arguments from both sides. My initial thoughts though are that the Talons vary in skill and performance so using some low showings or high showings for the Talons might not be wholly justified. Cobb is probably one Talon who has the most feats aside from Calvin Rose so this shouldn't be too necessary.

#42 Edited by NukeA6 (474 posts) - - Show Bio

The best Black Widow could do is give him a fight and I doubt it will be long. A Talon is not only superhuman but they also have a healing factor and are virtually unstoppable to any street-level character without a cryogenic weapon or anything that's at least a building-buster.

#43 Posted by Oy_the_Billy_Bumbler (820 posts) - - Show Bio

I voted for Talon, but I personally think it's a very close fight. Everyone who says this is an easy win for Talon should really do some research first. Here's a respect thread for BW from @fetts:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/black-widow-1553/a-black-widow-respect-thread-1458179/

The thread is mostly just funny, but @antigonist has a comment with a lot of great feats that would match or exceed anything Talon has done.

#44 Posted by k4tzm4n (43911 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Kudos to you for making such an interesting and unique match up this week Gregg. I'll enjoy being swayed by the arguments from both sides. My initial thoughts though are that the Talons vary in skill and performance so using some low showings or high showings for the Talons might not be wholly justified. Cobb is probably one Talon who has the most feats aside from Calvin Rose so this shouldn't be too necessary.

Thank you.

Staff Online
#45 Posted by LordoftheNorth (1365 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn you should have waited Talons are going to be enhanced with Venom next Arkham War so this fight would have been even more one sided

#46 Posted by micah (1373 posts) - - Show Bio

@lantian1: katanas, throwing knives and daggers, but Widow isn't that armored to begin with it shouldn't take much to get through

#47 Edited by Rainja (359 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a pretty balanced fight.

Here is my take:

Strength: DRAW: Black widow is enhanced Via Russian Super serum and can lift about 500 pounds naturally....That's hell of a strong for a woman. Cobb would have some form of strength but it has never been stated and I haven't seen him do anything to say he is greater than widows so I'll just leave them at a draw.

speed: I haven't really seen talon do anything to say he is faster than widow and based on her overall history I would say she is faster and more agile in combat.

endurance: Cobb isn't normal and we have seen him survive blows that would normally kill a human being, may it be by being stuck in vital areas or falling to his death and then recovering...He like all talons can take punishment. Due to their healing factor. widow has no such thing.

Stealth: I think this might be a draw. widow has been around for like ever and it's her profession to be stealthy and infiltrate places she also have the history to back it up. Cobb for the few little moments we have seen especially in his premise has been extremely efficient when it comes to stealth. If it's one thing Cobb might excel in initiative due to his stealth. The first time he rolled up on Bruce,Bruce would have died if he didn't act quickly and the second time he rolled up on Bruce down in the sewers let's face it, if it wasn't for plot purposes Bruce would have been dead. He took down Bruce which is a feat for him because it's very hard to sneak up on batman PERIOD if you are street level.

Hand 2 hand: I'm gonna go with Black widow. Simply put I think they are even skilled and trained however, black widow has the history to show that she has the instinct to use her skills effectively and a range of enemies she has demonstrated this against. In my opinion, Cobb is obviously formidable as he was the best Talon in recent history and if you follow the owls history! Talons are chosen from young, and trained to be killers and as a final test Kill the current Talon as there ultimate test . the defeated Talon will then be reanimated at the Courts whim into a relentless assassin. That's the hype at least, now let's look at the facts. The first time, Bruce while holding back was able to eventually "kill" him by throwing him out of the window in his civilian identity as Bruce Wayne. The third time when they bucked(After Cobb stealthy rolled up on bats and put him down in the sewer) a deranged,starved and malnourished batman with no skill other than Crazy, Kicked the owl shit out of him and killed him. That's horrible, LOL batman was being starved for weeks and was drinking water which made him hallucinate and had no mental stability to use the over 100 fighting styles that he has mastered and kicked the crap out of Cobb viciously to the point he died. Even the courts were disappointed and didn't even want to revive him for the shame. it looks Bad for Cobb here he could theoretically just tank the hits due to his damage resistance from him being a reanimation just to deliver a vicious slash or blow.

Gear:Widows suit grants her resistance to damage from small arms fire and allows her to climb walls which could give her a terrain advantage. he gauntlets allow her to use the widows bite(an eclectic shock up to 30,000 volts, ouch), an aerosol that can knock out a victim,explosives and tear gas.

Cobb suit does nothing but allow him to glide on air currents. And he has throwing knives. I say Natasha beats him here.

Combat tactics: Cobb goes straight for the kill and is a stealth fighter. He is very arrogant and uses Fear through intimidating words and his apprent invulnerability to damage. He is relentless.

Natasha will go for the kill only through deduction and analysis, she is the more arguably tactical fighter here and will Do w/e it takes to get the job done.

My verdict, Due to knockout, Natasha will win after a very hard battle. after Cobb is down and Natasha relaxes Cobb come back and stealthy murders Natasha. I say too close to call... it could go either way.

#48 Edited by patrickborkland (218 posts) - - Show Bio

This is an extremely close call to say the least, but there are a few reasons why I voted the way I did. Talon is an impressive assasian without a doubt. Black Widow is as well, obviously. At first, I was thinking this was too close to call. However, I voted Black Widow. One of the main reasons was because of her track record. Yes, Cobb is an impressive fighter and assassin, however, he was trained to be the best to go after targets that have no history of martial art experience, up until Batman. His targets would include politicians and other important figures in Gotham city that the court of owls saw as a threat to their authority. And once he faced off against Batman, as experienced and as tough as batman is as a fighter, Batman was without food for days at a time and trapped inside a Labyrinth until his strength was nearly depleted, and Cobb still couldn't beat him. Yes of course, that's Batman we're talking about, but I strongly believe Widow to be close to Batman's skill in fighting capabilities, especially a weakened Batman. Now Widow has quite a record of fighting along side AND against characters who are obviously far beyond any politician that Cobb had come against and beyond her own ability, and she can still keep up and beat. She can dodge any of Talon's knife throws, for she has dodged Katana's throws, and her fighting skills have kept up with Cap. America more times than once. The biggest thing to remember is that a weakened and tired Batman AND Nightwing we're able to defeat Cobb after a long battle, and Widow could do the same at her strongest 6/10.

#49 Posted by RedX17 (75 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm... Black Widow is one of the top 20 most dangerous and skilled characters in marvel universe. However, I gotta give the advantage to cobb. He is one of the best Talon's in the courts history, and only batman and Nightwing has defeated him. His skill coupled with his healing factor, I must give the edge to Cobb. Still, I'm going with tie.

#50 Edited by AllStarSuperman (21850 posts) - - Show Bio

This will be a good arguement in my opinion.

Aw I thought this was going to be Calvin Rose :- (

@jonny_anonymous: it needed to be Calvin Rose... he's cooler

just how cool is he, i think his series was canceled, but Amazon has 2 trades that collect the whole thing, so would you recommend it?