Take place in Washington D.C.
Win by killed
No civilians
Colossus wasn't physically immune to damage like Cain was. And Colossus is vastly slower than Supes in combat speed. It's arguable Clark beats him unconscious with those two things in mind.
didn't know that, the only time i remember seeing colossus hurt when through some "loophole" with the rulk. hmm, do think clark could kill him?
@mrvalance: He was hurt by Rulk as is when he stabbed him in the eyes with heated up fingers. He only ended up wanting to lose was when he went 2nd form and almost crushed Utopia. Otherwise, he was hurt by Kuurth and Unit took him out too IIRC.
Colossus wasn't physically immune to damage like Cain was. And Colossus is vastly slower than Supes in combat speed. It's arguable Clark beats him unconscious with those two things in mind.
Seconded. Colossus was much less durable than Cain and I don't remember that impenetrable forcefield coming into play often. Even if Colossus amped himself like he did against Rulk, I doubt that will help him beat Clark here.
@lvenger: He never used the force field ability. He had a decent healing factor, though. And his 2nd form never showed any damage. Rulk was nailing him and he wasn't even slowing down. Maybe that replaced the force field but that form only had like 3 and very brief appearances.
@god_spawn: I'm curious as to why Colossus lacked the forcefield ability that Cain had. I'd have thought Cyttorak would keep The Juggernaut's abilities consistent in their incarnations. Also do you think the second form would do better against Superman?
@lvenger: Idk why he lacked it. Cyttorak said Colossus was his favorite avatar. Maybe it had something to do with Colossus not being open to evil like Cain was. When Cain went good, Cyttorak hindered him pretty bad. I think the form would do better. Like I said, he wasn't shown being injured and Rulk couldn't budge him at all in that form. Rulk is no Superman, but he isn't a lightweight among Marvel powerhouses. Colossonaut has the strength and durability to fight Superman, but speed is another issue entirely. Plus, Cyttorak is magical in nature.
@god_spawn: But didn't Cytorrak agree to allow Colossus to be his Avatar because he caused more destruction as a hero than Cain did as a villain? There'd be no reason to limit Colossonaut's power when he wants to see more destruction caused by him. But I guess you're right that Cyttorak limited Cain's power when he went good so Colossus may not have been as powerful as he could be. In regards to the magical point, the problem I always have with it is that it isn't always clear whether magically powered beings are using magic in their physical attacks. Captain Marvel is powered by magic yet has almost no obvious magical attacks he uses in combat. The same could apply to Colossonaut too.
@lvenger: I'm just throwing things out there. I just know between his strength and durability in 2nd form, he can hurt him. I'm not saying the magic is a definitive factor, but the possibility is there. I'm not saying he's invulnerable in that form, but he's highly durable if Rulk's hits aren't even budging him. A lot of what ifs and a lot of wasted potential with the idea.
@lvenger: I'm just throwing things out there. I just know between his strength and durability in 2nd form, he can hurt him. I'm not saying the magic is a definitive factor, but the possibility is there. I'm not saying he's invulnerable in that form, but he's highly durable if Rulk's hits aren't even budging him. A lot of what ifs and a lot of wasted potential with the idea.
Agreed, there are a lot of hypotheses to consider if Colossus were to go to his second form that he might be capable of hurting Superman. And when I was searching for Rulk feats for a Rulk vs Hercules CAV (which is now annoyingly on standby due to my opponent not being online for two weeks) his best striking feat equates to a Magnitude 8-10 Earthquake on a seismic scale. So Rulk failing to budge Colossonaut is even more impressive considering those striking feats.
@lvenger: I'm just throwing things out there. I just know between his strength and durability in 2nd form, he can hurt him. I'm not saying the magic is a definitive factor, but the possibility is there. I'm not saying he's invulnerable in that form, but he's highly durable if Rulk's hits aren't even budging him. A lot of what ifs and a lot of wasted potential with the idea.
Agreed, there are a lot of hypotheses to consider if Colossus were to go to his second form that he might be capable of hurting Superman. And when I was searching for Rulk feats for a Rulk vs Hercules CAV (which is now annoyingly on standby due to my opponent not being online for two weeks) his best striking feat equates to a Magnitude 8-10 Earthquake on a seismic scale. So Rulk failing to budge Colossonaut is even more impressive considering those striking feats.
A Mag. 8 to 10 EQ sounds under Supes level to be 100% frank
@easternwind: Probably but it's nothing to be scoffed at in terms of raw striking power.
@easternwind: Probably but it's nothing to be scoffed at in terms of raw striking power.
Yeah, I guess the fact that ColoNau didnt even BUDGE is damn impressive, but Superman would be hitting harder than that.
Well, actually, if supes is morals on I am not so sure.
But Supes is damn strong Nu52 Supes Shook the earth and benched the earth, and has writters saying he could Planet Bust, and Pre 52 Supes has his own feats
@easternwind: Probably but it's nothing to be scoffed at in terms of raw striking power.
Yeah, I guess the fact that ColoNau didnt even BUDGE is damn impressive, but Superman would be hitting harder than that.
Well, actually, if supes is morals on I am not so sure.
But Supes is damn strong Nu52 Supes Shook the earth and benched the earth, and has writters saying he could Planet Bust, and Pre 52 Supes has his own feats
I still don't believe that he can planet bust. Well logically he should be able to like Gladiator did but until he gets the feats to prove otherwise, Pre New 52 Superman is still a casual moon buster in striking power. New 52 Superman is still below him IMO even with the Earth shaking feat.
Supes would BFR him as soon as the battle begins. I'm sure he wouldn't want the White House or Washington Monument getting damaged.
@easternwind: Probably but it's nothing to be scoffed at in terms of raw striking power.
Yeah, I guess the fact that ColoNau didnt even BUDGE is damn impressive, but Superman would be hitting harder than that.
Well, actually, if supes is morals on I am not so sure.
But Supes is damn strong Nu52 Supes Shook the earth and benched the earth, and has writters saying he could Planet Bust, and Pre 52 Supes has his own feats
I still don't believe that he can planet bust. Well logically he should be able to like Gladiator did but until he gets the feats to prove otherwise, Pre New 52 Superman is still a casual moon buster in striking power. New 52 Superman is still below him IMO even with the Earth shaking feat.
Pre 52 was a bit inconsistent, sometimes he would have trouble moon busting, sometimes he would damage people with planetary durability and the like. The Planet busting statement was for Nu52 I believe, though there may be a similar one for Pre 52.
You know alot about Supes, But when was it that they said his strikes where doing more then they expected from the calcs of him benching the earth? Was that the shaking the earth feat? I remember a lot of people said that Benching earth feat meant he could Planet bust, but it is hard to correlate striking and lifting , and when the comics themselves do connect them, like this instance, he doesnt bust a planet , but they still say its past what they expected.
I wish I knew the math for Moonbust vs Earth Shake lol
Seconded. Colossus was much less durable than Cain and I don't remember that impenetrable forcefield coming into play often. Even if Colossus amped himself like he did against Rulk, I doubt that will help him beat Clark here.
Based on what, may I ask?
Rulk, Thing and other Class 100s were capable of hurting or fazing Colossus even as Cyttorak's Avatar. And though he stalemated Kuurth, he didn't do so easily. Plus a big part of Cain's durability is the impenetrable forcefield, a feature Colossus lacked. People were capable of hurting his exterior durability because there was no magical forcefield protecting him. That's why Colossus seems to be obviously less durable than Cain even as Colossonaut.
Pre 52 was a bit inconsistent, sometimes he would have trouble moon busting, sometimes he would damage people with planetary durability and the like. The Planet busting statement was for Nu52 I believe, though there may be a similar one for Pre 52.
You know alot about Supes, But when was it that they said his strikes where doing more then they expected from the calcs of him benching the earth? Was that the shaking the earth feat? I remember a lot of people said that Benching earth feat meant he could Planet bust, but it is hard to correlate striking and lifting , and when the comics themselves do connect them, like this instance, he doesnt bust a planet , but they still say its past what they expected.
I wish I knew the math for Moonbust vs Earth Shake lol
There was also a planet busting statement Pre New 52
Oh and this is also the pertinent scan to your question. Dr Veritas stated that Superman's power levels whilst making the Earth shaking punch were higher than what he was exerting when he was lifting the Earth's weight for 5 days.
Me too, that would help a lot.
@lvenger: Thanks for the scans, thats a statement from supes tho, Not a writer, I was referring to Pak...I think?. Saying he could do it.
On the second scan, yeah thats what I meant she links the two feats.
I tried to figure out the math, but its quite hard. Mostly for the earth shaking end of things.
@easternwind: Yeah Pak did but it's a subjective statement, not a comment on something he wrote like Superman moving War World.
@lvenger: Moving Warworld? Sorry I am not super up on my Supes knowledge but what does that have to do with writer statements?
Rulk, Thing and other Class 100s were capable of hurting or fazing Colossus even as Cyttorak's Avatar. And though he stalemated Kuurth, he didn't do so easily. Plus a big part of Cain's durability is the impenetrable forcefield, a feature Colossus lacked. People were capable of hurting his exterior durability because there was no magical forcefield protecting him. That's why Colossus seems to be obviously less durable than Cain even as Colossonaut.
This forcefield of Cain, I don't even remember the last time when I saw it. The point is, of course if I didn't miss something, it's not really being used these days. And Marko was hurt by many other characters that supposedly shouldn't hurt him, so his true level of invulnerability was always performed differently by writers, whenever they wanted to either downplay or amp him up. Same with Colossus pretty much, the Demonic form is stated to be the most powerful form, that Marko wasn't even able to tap into, at the same time Colossus wasn't destructive enough as a person to fully unleash his potential, like he almost did with Rulk. We all know he could've ripped him in half in that state, the only reason he didn't is a plot device and his morality. Thing only broke his helmet (and was one-shotted right afterwards), even Human Torch did the same to a Classic Juggernaut.
Something we also must remember, as Juggernaut, Colossus only taps into this force WHENEVER he pleases, so most of the time he was hurt, the second he Juggered-out he was also auto-healed immediately.
As much as I like Gillen as a writer (the same one that established Juggerlossus) his PIS/CIS/WIS battle-wise were just terrible.
@lvenger: Moving Warworld? Sorry I am not super up on my Supes knowledge but what does that have to do with writer statements?
Sorry I should have clarified. What I meant to say was if a writer makes a ruling on something he wrote, we fans have to accept that's what happened. For example, when Thor threw his hammer at the Phoenix Force and sent it onto the planet below, Hickman elaborated that Thor had actually managed to KO the Phoenix Force. Even though that's a bit much, Hickman's ruling can't be argued with because he wrote it except if you think it's PIS. The Warworld point is the same because although it's unclear whether Superman moved Warworld, Pak says he did so that's what happened.
@lvenger: Ahhh Ok , I thought thats what you meant but I wasnt sure
Collosonaut
He was only ever effected by physical harm when he took of his helmet and wanted to be beaten badly.
@darkseid1006: Agreed
Colosanaut, he was humiliating Rulk, before Rulk strategically found out how to best him.
If Superman has lost to Foomsday through physical damage, then Colosanaut is definetly IMO able to achomplish the same.
@darkseid1006: Agreed
Colosanaut, he was humiliating Rulk, before Rulk strategically found out how to best him.
If Superman has lost to Foomsday through physical damage, then Colosanaut is definetly IMO able to achomplish the same.
Superman hits harder than Rulk, is faster than Rulk, is more versatile than Rulk, more tactical than Rulk and is more powerful than Rulk. Remind me again how Colossonaut is going to inflict this so called 'physical damage' to him when he lacks Cain's forcefield, let alone his durability.
@lvenger: The same way he did to a Serpend empowered Juggernaut, through inflicting a lot of damage.
He could actually hit Kuurth though as Cain didn't have hypersonic+ combat speed and reactions that see the world in slow motion if he wants to. Plus there's no forcefield or durability dampener to prevent Superman putting Colossonaut down.
@darkseid1006: Agreed
Colosanaut, he was humiliating Rulk, before Rulk strategically found out how to best him.
If Superman has lost to Foomsday through physical damage, then Colosanaut is definetly IMO able to achomplish the same.
You're going to compare Colossusnaut to someone who practically annihilated the a portion League that consisted of a few Superman lvl characters on his own? I bet you think Colossusnaut has super speed like Doomsday, strength like Superman and durability to match his. Since he doesn't, there goes your post. Colossusnaut can't do what DD did.
@lvenger: I also wanted to tell you that Rulk was capable of dodging 2nd stage Colossonaut when he charged in for a punch, and Colossus himself said Kuurth had the speed advantage on him. The only reason he won was because he couldn't stop him. So I'm just bringing it up to point out that the speed gap here is ridiculously large. It was to begin with, but I forgot those feats happened.
@god_spawn: Oh well that makes the speed gap even more ridiculous now. With Cain, his forcefield and durability make Superman's speed advantage basically moot. Given what you've said here about Kuurth being faster than Colossonaut, that just makes Superman's speed all the more prevalent lol. Thanks for the extra info, much appreciated. That clarifies this battle up a lot now.
Demonic Juggerlossus > Cain, until shown otherwise.
And I don't really get why Kuuth is even brought to the picture, he was the most overpowered Worthy that wasn't affected by anything besides the unstoppable momentum.
Superman hits harder than Rulk, is faster than Rulk, is more versatile than Rulk, more tactical than Rulk and is more powerful than Rulk. Remind me again how Colossonaut is going to inflict this so called 'physical damage' to him when he lacks Cain's forcefield, let alone his durability.
Really?
Again, you didn't answer me before for some reason, why does he even need a force-field when he was shown to be auto-healed from every injury the second he went Juggernaut.
@lvenger: Idk why he lacked it. Cyttorak said Colossus was his favorite avatar. Maybe it had something to do with Colossus not being open to evil like Cain was. When Cain went good, Cyttorak hindered him pretty bad. I think the form would do better. Like I said, he wasn't shown being injured and Rulk couldn't budge him at all in that form. Rulk is no Superman, but he isn't a lightweight among Marvel powerhouses. Colossonaut has the strength and durability to fight Superman, but speed is another issue entirely. Plus, Cyttorak is magical in nature.
Because he was holding back. Whole story with Magik there was about it. Colossus could tap into demonic form any time, even when he was Phoenix Force amped, but he was afraid of himself. Almost every current story with Juggernaut shows him holding back and being vulnerable to physical attacks, like when he fought King Hyperion.
I don't see Colos winning it, even while I belive demon-Colos was supposed to be Ghost Rider on steroids.
@adamtrmm: Show me proof that he auto healed from every attack. I'm not buying it so far and the burden is on you to show me that evidence. And Superman is more than able to inflict damage on Colossus in this form. Kuurth did so, Rulk could stick his fingers in his eyes and Thing brawled with him for a bit. All feats indicating that Colossonaut is drastically below Cain in physicals and durability. You haven't proven he can withstand Superman's assault whereas Cain could due to his magical impenetrable forcefield thus forcing the match into a stalemate.
And really Demon Colossonaut>Cain? He had one showing against Rulk. One good showing but not enough to indicate he was impervious to harm nor that he was above Cain's power level. That's gross speculation on your part I'm afraid and not enough evidence to indicate he could survive against Superman's overall advantages.
Show me proof that he auto healed from every attack. I'm not buying it so far and the burden is on you to show me that evidence.
Gladly.
They were attacked by the "Celestial drones" (lol) which also shows how good Colossus' durability even without Juggernaut.
And Superman is more than able to inflict damage on Colossus in this form. Kuurth did so
Do we really compare Kuurth to Superman? Kuurth wasn't even bothered by a team that would annihilate Supes, people on here debated Kuurth vs. Thanos, he is on another level.
Rulk could stick his fingers in his eyes and Thing brawled with him for a bit
He is holding back, you know that, I know that, so what's the point?
All feats indicating that Colossonaut is drastically below Cain in physicals and durability. You haven't proven he can withstand Superman's assault whereas Cain could due to his magical impenetrable forcefield thus forcing the match into a stalemate.
What we've seen is him taking on Rulk effortlessly in his Demonic form, only to be stopped by his own morals, the second time he went into this mode he was already stripped out of these powers, but we have Cyttorak's statement on how Colossus is his favorite avatar and he gives him more power than he had for Cain:
And really Demon Colossonaut>Cain? He had one showing against Rulk. One good showing but not enough to indicate he was impervious to harm nor that he was above Cain's power level. That's gross speculation on your part I'm afraid and not enough evidence to indicate he could survive against Superman's overall advantages.
Partially this is true, but as I said I base my statement not just on thin air, but generally yes, he has very few showings at all, yet physically they were all impressive, more than Marko's were in years for sure.
Gladly.
They were attacked by the "Celestial drones" (lol) which also shows how good Colossus' durability even without Juggernaut.
OK but that doesn't prove he can heal whilst in the Juggernaut form. Nor does it prove he can heal from the blunt force trauma damage Superman would deal him.
He is holding back, you know that, I know that, so what's the point?
Doesn't change the fact that Thing took him on whilst brawling. And Superman is not only much stronger than the Thing, he's overall more powerful and faster too.
What we've seen is him taking on Rulk effortlessly in his Demonic form, only to be stopped by his own morals, the second time he went into this mode he was already stripped out of these powers, but we have Cyttorak's statement on how Colossus is his favorite avatar and he gives him more power than he had for Cain:
Your scans only show that Cyttorak prefers Colossus as an Avatar. There's no proof he's offering him more power than Cain. Where does he specify that he gives Colossus more power than Cain? If that were so, Colossus would have the impenetrable forcefield Cain has yet that isn't the case.
Partially this is true, but as I said I base my statement not just on thin air, but generally yes, he has very few showings at all, yet physically they were all impressive, more than Marko's were in years for sure.
I can already think of two recent feats that trump Colossonaut's Demonic Form; Cain stalemating World War Hulk, the most powerful Hulk incarnation to date and having an advantage over Skaar, a Class 100 member of the Hulk Family with a connection to The Old Power (For the record, Skaar pulled off a 100 trillion ton punch by focusing enough Old Power in his fist.) And that's without any amps like 8th Day or anything like that.
OK but that doesn't prove he can heal whilst in the Juggernaut form. Nor does it prove he can heal from the blunt force trauma damage Superman would deal him.
He did it once, why won't he be able to perform this again? There no evidence of the contrary as well.
What difference does it make "how" he has received the damage?
Doesn't change the fact that Thing took him on whilst brawling. And Superman is not only much stronger than the Thing, he's overall more powerful and faster too.
You're talking like Thing is a Spider-Man level character, and it is a well-known fact he fights out of his league constantly, it's not like Colossus was ever damaged by him or taken out, they brawled a little, Thing made him angry and got one-shotted right afterwards, nothing else happened.
Your scans only show that Cyttorak prefers Colossus as an Avatar. There's no proof he's offering him more power than Cain. Where does he specify that he gives Colossus more power than Cain? If that were so, Colossus would have the impenetrable forcefield Cain has yet that isn't the case.
It is on the scan, "why do you think I've given you so much?", if not for power, then what does this statement stand for?
The Demonic form, nothing else differs him from Marko's Juggernaut. Maybe he didn't want to use the FF, or let's talk straight to the facts, maybe writers don't want this force-field to exist anymore? It happens to some powersets of the overpowered characters in Marvel all the time.
I can already think of two recent feats that trump Colossonaut's Demonic Form; Cain stalemating World War Hulk, the most powerful Hulk incarnation to date and having an advantage over Skaar, a Class 100 member of the Hulk Family with a connection to The Old Power (For the record, Skaar pulled off a 100 trillion ton punch by focusing enough Old Power in his fist.) And that's without any amps like 8th Day or anything like that.
I say, Demonic form > WWH, and this incarnation is still not WBH which is the most powerful one, as for the second time, I don't remember any statement of how much power did Skaar use, but Cain was kicked into orbit, so I wasn't really impressed as well.
Damn those PIS AVX sh!t battles! Juggerlossus vs. the real Hulk could be so much better! :(
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