He won with Hercules who later recreated all damage done by CK, which means that his power was greater than just 98% of Multiverse.
Hercules didn't recreate everything, he restored the multiverse out of the pieces of creation that were left behind after Mikaboshi got BFR'd into the continuum. A 5D imp's power extends to the multiverse, and the AM beat Spectre while he was drawing on Thunderbolt's power.
Spectre didn't make any feat close to this one, so COIE AM can't win it.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
IMO it is a stalemate, since both did pretty much the same thing - absorbed almost whole Multiverse and CK was never trully defeated.
Still doesn't explain what Mikaboshi can do if the AM just manipulates time to kill him before he devoured the pantheons. The Anti-Monitor didn't absorb universes, he outright destroyed them.
1.He affected whole Multiverse - he was Multiversal at that moment. 2.CW Herc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that Spectre 3.Using time manipulation can't affect beings that are above time itself and Mikaboshi was above that since he grew more powerfull than Infinity. Was it ever a good tacitc against Multiversal level being?
He won with Hercules who later recreated all damage done by CK, which means that his power was greater than just 98% of Multiverse.
Hercules didn't recreate everything, he restored the multiverse out of the pieces of creation that were left behind after Mikaboshi got BFR'd into the continuum. A 5D imp's power extends to the multiverse, and the AM beat Spectre while he was drawing on Thunderbolt's power.
Spectre didn't make any feat close to this one, so COIE AM can't win it.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
IMO it is a stalemate, since both did pretty much the same thing - absorbed almost whole Multiverse and CK was never trully defeated.
Still doesn't explain what Mikaboshi can do if the AM just manipulates time to kill him before he devoured the pantheons. The Anti-Monitor didn't absorb universes, he outright destroyed them.
1.He affected whole Multiverse - he was Multiversal at that moment. 2.CW Herc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that Spectre 3.Using time manipulation can't affect beings that are above time itself and Mikaboshi was above that since he grew more powerfull than Infinity. Was it ever a good tacitc against Multiversal level being?
So? Right before fighting the Spectre, the Anti-Monitor drained the energy of all the heroes of all the remaining universes in the multiverse into himself. Thusly, he was multiversal. And him being multiversal shouldn't even be in question at any rate. My point is that he didn't recreate anything, he rebuilt it from the pieces that were lying around.
Not really. A weaker version of the Spectre recreated the DCU from nothing in Zero Hour after Parallax was defeated. He has Hercules' one major feat and then dozens more.
What? Why wouldn't it? By that logic, Mikaboshi was above space itself as well and was still BFR'd. I see absolutely no reason why something like this is not possible. If you're asking for an example of this tactic, this is not from Marvel, but the Authority beat Jenny Fractal by going back in time and killing her as a child. And Fractal was multiversal, she was shredding the multiverse just by getting angry.
1.He affected whole Multiverse - he was Multiversal at that moment. 2.CW Herc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that Spectre 3.Using time manipulation can't affect beings that are above time itself and Mikaboshi was above that since he grew more powerfull than Infinity. Was it ever a good tacitc against Multiversal level being?
So? Right before fighting the Spectre, the Anti-Monitor drained the energy of all the heroes of all the remaining universes in the multiverse into himself. Thusly, he was multiversal. And him being multiversal shouldn't even be in question at any rate. My point is that he didn't recreate anything, he rebuilt it from the pieces that were lying around.
Not really. A weaker version of the Spectre recreated the DCU from nothing in Zero Hour after Parallax was defeated. He has Hercules' one major feat and then dozens more.
What? Why wouldn't it? By that logic, Mikaboshi was above space itself as well and was still BFR'd. I see absolutely no reason why something like this is not possible. If you're asking for an example of this tactic, this is not from Marvel, but the Authority beat Jenny Fractal by going back in time and killing her as a child. And Fractal was multiversal, she was shredding the multiverse just by getting angry.
1.I never said that AM isn't multiversal - this is my point, both are and both have the same goal and powers. I don't see how one can defeat another. Herc had to create that matter, because Chaos King still had 98% ofM in himself. 2.Universal level feat, not multiversal one. 3.He was above that - that is why he was able to access to whole Multiverse at the same time. That is why they BFR'd him out of Multiverse and since he wasn't above multiversal power level, he couldn't (and he didn't want to) sense that something is wrong. Strange. When Akhenaten was in possesion of even a fragment of HotU he couldn't be destroyed in that way. The same with IGennis-V and Shuma Gorath. Besides, even if this depends on each person, Mikaboshi was affecting other points in time, since he was destroying other universes that are already in further point in time, since their current point is further in time than 616. I simply don't see it, if beings above universal existance can create and recreate universe in any point of time.
1.He affected whole Multiverse - he was Multiversal at that moment. 2.CW Herc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that Spectre 3.Using time manipulation can't affect beings that are above time itself and Mikaboshi was above that since he grew more powerfull than Infinity. Was it ever a good tacitc against Multiversal level being?
So? Right before fighting the Spectre, the Anti-Monitor drained the energy of all the heroes of all the remaining universes in the multiverse into himself. Thusly, he was multiversal. And him being multiversal shouldn't even be in question at any rate. My point is that he didn't recreate anything, he rebuilt it from the pieces that were lying around.
Not really. A weaker version of the Spectre recreated the DCU from nothing in Zero Hour after Parallax was defeated. He has Hercules' one major feat and then dozens more.
What? Why wouldn't it? By that logic, Mikaboshi was above space itself as well and was still BFR'd. I see absolutely no reason why something like this is not possible. If you're asking for an example of this tactic, this is not from Marvel, but the Authority beat Jenny Fractal by going back in time and killing her as a child. And Fractal was multiversal, she was shredding the multiverse just by getting angry.
1.I never said that AM isn't multiversal - this is my point, both are and both have the same goal and powers. I don't see how one can defeat another. Herc had to create that matter, because Chaos King still had 98% ofM in himself. 2.Universal level feat, not multiversal one. 3.He was above that - that is why he was able to access to whole Multiverse at the same time. That is why they BFR'd him out of Multiverse and since he wasn't above multiversal power level, he couldn't (and he didn't want to) sense that something is wrong. Strange. When Akhenaten was in possesion of even a fragment of HotU he couldn't be destroyed in that way. The same with IGennis-V and Shuma Gorath. Besides, even if this depends on each person, Mikaboshi was affecting other points in time, since he was destroying other universes that are already in further point in time, since their current point is further in time than 616. I simply don't see it, if beings above universal existance can create and recreate universe in any point of time.
Spectre recreating the DCU was multiversal, because he was the only one who was aware of the existing alternate universes before Infinite Crisis. In his own ongoing, he showed that he had an aspect of himself in every universe, even though there was only supposed to be one universe -- because to him, they still existed. And they couldn't exist/have his aspects unless Jim Corrigan had recreated them.
He was not able to access the multiverse all at the same time. Mikaboshi's powers never worked like that. He could absorb matter by coming into contact with it, and so he gradually absorbed more and more matter until he had finally absorbed 98% of the multiverse. He never even absorbed a universe at once. And your statement was wrong at any rate, Mikaboshi would need to be above Eternity to be above time itself, not Infinity. He was not above Eternity by the former's statement, thus there is no reason time manipulation would not work on him. Mikaboshi never created or recreated any universes, nor did he demonstrate the capacity to do so. He was simply oblivion, not creation.
Marvel: The End is not canon, and that's a bad example at any rate considering that Akhenaten already knew that Doom was conspiring against him before he traveled back in time. LOL, why are you bringing up Genis as an example? He himself said (to Rick, I think) that if he killed the past Legacy version of himself, it would be suicide for his present self as well. Haven't read the Shuma incident. Imperiex was also defeated via time manipulation.
1.I never said that AM isn't multiversal - this is my point, both are and both have the same goal and powers. I don't see how one can defeat another. Herc had to create that matter, because Chaos King still had 98% ofM in himself. 2.Universal level feat, not multiversal one. 3.He was above that - that is why he was able to access to whole Multiverse at the same time. That is why they BFR'd him out of Multiverse and since he wasn't above multiversal power level, he couldn't (and he didn't want to) sense that something is wrong. Strange. When Akhenaten was in possesion of even a fragment of HotU he couldn't be destroyed in that way. The same with IGennis-V and Shuma Gorath. Besides, even if this depends on each person, Mikaboshi was affecting other points in time, since he was destroying other universes that are already in further point in time, since their current point is further in time than 616. I simply don't see it, if beings above universal existance can create and recreate universe in any point of time.
Spectre recreating the DCU was multiversal, because he was the only one who was aware of the existing alternate universes before Infinite Crisis. In his own ongoing, he showed that he had an aspect of himself in every universe, even though there was only supposed to be one universe -- because to him, they still existed. And they couldn't exist/have his aspects unless Jim Corrigan had recreated them.
He was not able to access the multiverse all at the same time. Mikaboshi's powers never worked like that. He could absorb matter by coming into contact with it, and so he gradually absorbed more and more matter until he had finally absorbed 98% of the multiverse. He never even absorbed a universe at once. And your statement was wrong at any rate, Mikaboshi would need to be above Eternity to be above time itself, not Infinity. He was not above Eternity by the former's statement, thus there is no reason time manipulation would not work on him. Mikaboshi never created or recreated any universes, nor did he demonstrate the capacity to do so. He was simply oblivion, not creation.
Marvel: The End is not canon, and that's a bad example at any rate considering that Akhenaten already knew that Doom was conspiring against him before he traveled back in time. LOL, why are you bringing up Genis as an example? He himself said (to Rick, I think) that if he killed the past Legacy version of himself, it would be suicide for his present self as well. Haven't read the Shuma incident. Imperiex was also defeated via time manipulation.
2.How that proves that it was Multiversal? Going by Your words, Spectre recreated main DCU not everything. 3. A)It is not the point. He had access to whole Multiverse, because it was a part of him. According to YOu, he didn't have access to himself. B)Mikaboshi was later much more powerfull than Eternity. Eternity stated that they are two sides of the same coin in the begginning of CW, not in the end. C)Marvel: The End is canon. Thanos even talked about it in Thanos Imperative or Annihilation. And he remembered that in his mini Thanos (1-12). D)It wouldn't be, because it can't be. IGV would just create new timeline.
1.I never said that AM isn't multiversal - this is my point, both are and both have the same goal and powers. I don't see how one can defeat another. Herc had to create that matter, because Chaos King still had 98% ofM in himself. 2.Universal level feat, not multiversal one. 3.He was above that - that is why he was able to access to whole Multiverse at the same time. That is why they BFR'd him out of Multiverse and since he wasn't above multiversal power level, he couldn't (and he didn't want to) sense that something is wrong. Strange. When Akhenaten was in possesion of even a fragment of HotU he couldn't be destroyed in that way. The same with IGennis-V and Shuma Gorath. Besides, even if this depends on each person, Mikaboshi was affecting other points in time, since he was destroying other universes that are already in further point in time, since their current point is further in time than 616. I simply don't see it, if beings above universal existance can create and recreate universe in any point of time.
Spectre recreating the DCU was multiversal, because he was the only one who was aware of the existing alternate universes before Infinite Crisis. In his own ongoing, he showed that he had an aspect of himself in every universe, even though there was only supposed to be one universe -- because to him, they still existed. And they couldn't exist/have his aspects unless Jim Corrigan had recreated them.
He was not able to access the multiverse all at the same time. Mikaboshi's powers never worked like that. He could absorb matter by coming into contact with it, and so he gradually absorbed more and more matter until he had finally absorbed 98% of the multiverse. He never even absorbed a universe at once. And your statement was wrong at any rate, Mikaboshi would need to be above Eternity to be above time itself, not Infinity. He was not above Eternity by the former's statement, thus there is no reason time manipulation would not work on him. Mikaboshi never created or recreated any universes, nor did he demonstrate the capacity to do so. He was simply oblivion, not creation.
Marvel: The End is not canon, and that's a bad example at any rate considering that Akhenaten already knew that Doom was conspiring against him before he traveled back in time. LOL, why are you bringing up Genis as an example? He himself said (to Rick, I think) that if he killed the past Legacy version of himself, it would be suicide for his present self as well. Haven't read the Shuma incident. Imperiex was also defeated via time manipulation.
2.How that proves that it was Multiversal? Going by Your words, Spectre recreated main DCU not everything. 3. A)It is not the point. He had access to whole Multiverse, because it was a part of him. According to YOu, he didn't have access to himself. B)Mikaboshi was later much more powerfull than Eternity. Eternity stated that they are two sides of the same coin in the begginning of CW, not in the end.C)Marvel: The End is canon. Thanos even talked about it in Thanos Imperative or Annihilation. And he remembered that in his mini Thanos (1-12). D)It wouldn't be, because it can't be. IGV would just create new timeline.
How does it not? You're leaning on semantics. I said the DCU, that means everything in DC. Just like when people say "the MU", they don't mean just 616.
I see.
Based on what? Exactly what did he do? He sent things to oblivion even at the peak of his power.......which is exactly what Eternity does.
Marvel: The End is not canon. It was canon before the Thanos Imperative since it was mentioned in the Thanos sourcebook, but after that there was a Q&A session on Tom Brevoort's formspring account where he stated that it was no longer canon. Here:
And he was/is Marvel's main editor. So as of this moment in time, The End is not canon.
Says who? IGV himself said killing his past would kill his future. I see no reason to doubt his word, especially given the scale of his cosmic awareness.
2.How that proves that it was Multiversal? Going by Your words, Spectre recreated main DCU not everything. 3. A)It is not the point. He had access to whole Multiverse, because it was a part of him. According to YOu, he didn't have access to himself. B)Mikaboshi was later much more powerfull than Eternity. Eternity stated that they are two sides of the same coin in the begginning of CW, not in the end.C)Marvel: The End is canon. Thanos even talked about it in Thanos Imperative or Annihilation. And he remembered that in his mini Thanos (1-12). D)It wouldn't be, because it can't be. IGV would just create new timeline.
How does it not? You're leaning on semantics. I said the DCU, that means everything in DC. Just like when people say "the MU", they don't mean just 616.
I see.
Based on what? Exactly what did he do? He sent things to oblivion even at the peak of his power.......which is exactly what Eternity does.
Marvel: The End is not canon. It was canon before the Thanos Imperative since it was mentioned in the Thanos sourcebook, but after that there was a Q&A session on Tom Brevoort's formspring account where he stated that it was no longer canon. Here:
And he was/is Marvel's main editor. So as of this moment in time, The End is not canon.
Says who? IGV himself said killing his past would kill his future. I see no reason to doubt his word, especially given the scale of his cosmic awareness.
1.I am not. Can You post scans that proves that Spectre recreates whole Multiverse. 2.If we're talking about Mikaboshi's powers, it only matters how powerfull he is. He wasn't powerfull enough in the beginnig to take beings like Marduk Kurios, but after he absorbed enough many people he grew more and more powerfull - finally to be more powerfull than Eternity. 3.It is canon. To be clear - I don't care what artists says in interviews. The same about Hulk: Let The Battle Begin. If someone is making a comic that doesn't fit in current universe, it is about different one, until it is explained in comic why it shouldn't be. Brevoort can say what he want, until someone wil lwrite a comic that somehow will take it off from canon comics, it is still canon. 4.And point that he was insane? We all know that if You're travelling back in time, You're just making new universe, nothing else.
2.How that proves that it was Multiversal? Going by Your words, Spectre recreated main DCU not everything. 3. A)It is not the point. He had access to whole Multiverse, because it was a part of him. According to YOu, he didn't have access to himself. B)Mikaboshi was later much more powerfull than Eternity. Eternity stated that they are two sides of the same coin in the begginning of CW, not in the end.C)Marvel: The End is canon. Thanos even talked about it in Thanos Imperative or Annihilation. And he remembered that in his mini Thanos (1-12). D)It wouldn't be, because it can't be. IGV would just create new timeline.
How does it not? You're leaning on semantics. I said the DCU, that means everything in DC. Just like when people say "the MU", they don't mean just 616.
I see.
Based on what? Exactly what did he do? He sent things to oblivion even at the peak of his power.......which is exactly what Eternity does.
Marvel: The End is not canon. It was canon before the Thanos Imperative since it was mentioned in the Thanos sourcebook, but after that there was a Q&A session on Tom Brevoort's formspring account where he stated that it was no longer canon. Here:
And he was/is Marvel's main editor. So as of this moment in time, The End is not canon.
Says who? IGV himself said killing his past would kill his future. I see no reason to doubt his word, especially given the scale of his cosmic awareness.
1.I am not. Can You post scans that proves that Spectre recreates whole Multiverse. 2.If we're talking about Mikaboshi's powers, it only matters how powerfull he is. He wasn't powerfull enough in the beginnig to take beings like Marduk Kurios, but after he absorbed enough many people he grew more and more powerfull - finally to be more powerfull than Eternity. 3.It is canon. To be clear - I don't care what artists says in interviews. The same about Hulk: Let The Battle Begin. If someone is making a comic that doesn't fit in current universe, it is about different one, until it is explained in comic why it shouldn't be. Brevoort can say what he want, until someone wil lwrite a comic that somehow will take it off from canon comics, it is still canon. 4.And point that he was insane? We all know that if You're travelling back in time, You're just making new universe, nothing else.
Yes, you are. Here:
Gallery
Spectre also showed before Infinite Crisis that he exists in every universe, and in the Emperor Joker arc (also before Infinite Crisis) that Mxy's reality warping could affect every universe, even though there was only one from the point of view of other characters. Alex Luthor did not just create new universes out of nothing, they were shielded away from New Earth and he used the multiverse tower to unshield them. Those universes could only exist if someone brought them back after everything was destroyed during Zero Hour. And who recreated everything during Zero Hour? The Spectre.
I keep asking over and over again, what proof do you have for this? What did Mikaboshi do that sets him above Eternity? Nothing. Again, even at the peak of his power, he was sending matter to oblivion....which is exactly what Eternity does.
What are you talking about? Brevoort is not an artist. He is the editor. His decisions carry more weight than any artist or writer, and if he says it's not canon.....it's not. Period. And that example was wrong, anyway, so I don't know why you're arguing the point.
Ah, but he was not insane in the commonsense understanding of the word, was he? And he never traveled back in time, he was confronted by a past version of himself as well as a future version, and he stated that killing his past would also kill his future. Period.
1.I am not. Can You post scans that proves that Spectre recreates whole Multiverse. 2.If we're talking about Mikaboshi's powers, it only matters how powerfull he is. He wasn't powerfull enough in the beginnig to take beings like Marduk Kurios, but after he absorbed enough many people he grew more and more powerfull - finally to be more powerfull than Eternity. 3.It is canon. To be clear - I don't care what artists says in interviews. The same about Hulk: Let The Battle Begin. If someone is making a comic that doesn't fit in current universe, it is about different one, until it is explained in comic why it shouldn't be. Brevoort can say what he want, until someone wil lwrite a comic that somehow will take it off from canon comics, it is still canon. 4.And point that he was insane? We all know that if You're travelling back in time, You're just making new universe, nothing else.
Yes, you are. Here:
Gallery
Spectre also showed before Infinite Crisis that he exists in every universe, and in the Emperor Joker arc (also before Infinite Crisis) that Mxy's reality warping could affect every universe, even though there was only one from the point of view of other characters. Alex Luthor did not just create new universes out of nothing, they were shielded away from New Earth and he used the multiverse tower to unshield them. Those universes could only exist if someone brought them back after everything was destroyed during Zero Hour. And who recreated everything during Zero Hour? The Spectre.
I keep asking over and over again, what proof do you have for this? What did Mikaboshi do that sets him above Eternity? Nothing. Again, even at the peak of his power, he was sending matter to oblivion....which is exactly what Eternity does.
What are you talking about? Brevoort is not an artist. He is the editor. His decisions carry more weight than any artist or writer, and if he says it's not canon.....it's not. Period. And that example was wrong, anyway, so I don't know why you're arguing the point.
Ah, but he was not insane in the commonsense understanding of the word, was he? And he never traveled back in time, he was confronted by a past version of himself as well as a future version, and he stated that killing his past would also kill his future. Period.
1.It is not a point that Spectre exists in every universe or not. Here he only recreated one universe. There is nothing that would suggest anything else. Not to mention that is not doing it only on his own power. 2.He absorbed 98% of Multiverse. Eternity as a 1 universe isn't even a 0,1 % of Multiverse. 3.His desicions are canon only if they have their response in comics - without it, they are as worthy as my or Yours wishes. 4.But how does that matter? According to Marvel science he would only create another timeline. That is what we know thanks to Cable. He could came back in time as much as he wants - he can't change his future in this way.
1.I am not. Can You post scans that proves that Spectre recreates whole Multiverse. 2.If we're talking about Mikaboshi's powers, it only matters how powerfull he is. He wasn't powerfull enough in the beginnig to take beings like Marduk Kurios, but after he absorbed enough many people he grew more and more powerfull - finally to be more powerfull than Eternity. 3.It is canon. To be clear - I don't care what artists says in interviews. The same about Hulk: Let The Battle Begin. If someone is making a comic that doesn't fit in current universe, it is about different one, until it is explained in comic why it shouldn't be. Brevoort can say what he want, until someone wil lwrite a comic that somehow will take it off from canon comics, it is still canon. 4.And point that he was insane? We all know that if You're travelling back in time, You're just making new universe, nothing else.
Yes, you are. Here:
Gallery
Spectre also showed before Infinite Crisis that he exists in every universe, and in the Emperor Joker arc (also before Infinite Crisis) that Mxy's reality warping could affect every universe, even though there was only one from the point of view of other characters. Alex Luthor did not just create new universes out of nothing, they were shielded away from New Earth and he used the multiverse tower to unshield them. Those universes could only exist if someone brought them back after everything was destroyed during Zero Hour. And who recreated everything during Zero Hour? The Spectre.
I keep asking over and over again, what proof do you have for this? What did Mikaboshi do that sets him above Eternity? Nothing. Again, even at the peak of his power, he was sending matter to oblivion....which is exactly what Eternity does.
What are you talking about? Brevoort is not an artist. He is the editor. His decisions carry more weight than any artist or writer, and if he says it's not canon.....it's not. Period. And that example was wrong, anyway, so I don't know why you're arguing the point.
Ah, but he was not insane in the commonsense understanding of the word, was he? And he never traveled back in time, he was confronted by a past version of himself as well as a future version, and he stated that killing his past would also kill his future. Period.
1.It is not a point that Spectre exists in every universe or not. Here he only recreated one universe. There is nothing that would suggest anything else. Not to mention that is not doing it only on his own power. 2.He absorbed 98% of Multiverse. Eternity as a 1 universe isn't even a 0,1 % of Multiverse. 3.His desicions are canon only if they have their response in comics - without it, they are as worthy as my or Yours wishes. 4.But how does that matter? According to Marvel science he would only create another timeline. That is what we know thanks to Cable. He could came back in time as much as he wants - he can't change his future in this way.
Did you even read anything I said? And if you're claiming he didn't do it under his own power because he pumped energy through Waverider.........LOL. I'm not even going to go into how ridiculous that is.
What are you talking about? Who said anything about Eternity as one universe? Anywhere? He doesn't exist in a single universe, he exists for the multiverse and has Eternities in each universe. That much should just be common knowledge.
No, they are not. You're just being ridiculous now. His word is among the highest authorities in Marvel. They're not even remotely on par with your wishes, or a writer's, or an artist's.
Says who? When has Cable ever actively tried to alter his future in that manner? He was still trying to change the future by interfering with the past in a mini that just ended! Genis stated that killing his past would kill his future. Period.
Spectre also showed before Infinite Crisis that he exists in every universe, and in the Emperor Joker arc (also before Infinite Crisis) that Mxy's reality warping could affect every universe, even though there was only one from the point of view of other characters. Alex Luthor did not just create new universes out of nothing, they were shielded away from New Earth and he used the multiverse tower to unshield them. Those universes could only exist if someone brought them back after everything was destroyed during Zero Hour. And who recreated everything during Zero Hour? The Spectre.
I keep asking over and over again, what proof do you have for this? What did Mikaboshi do that sets him above Eternity? Nothing. Again, even at the peak of his power, he was sending matter to oblivion....which is exactly what Eternity does.
What are you talking about? Brevoort is not an artist. He is the editor. His decisions carry more weight than any artist or writer, and if he says it's not canon.....it's not. Period. And that example was wrong, anyway, so I don't know why you're arguing the point.
Ah, but he was not insane in the commonsense understanding of the word, was he? And he never traveled back in time, he was confronted by a past version of himself as well as a future version, and he stated that killing his past would also kill his future. Period.
1.It is not a point that Spectre exists in every universe or not. Here he only recreated one universe. There is nothing that would suggest anything else. Not to mention that is not doing it only on his own power. 2.He absorbed 98% of Multiverse. Eternity as a 1 universe isn't even a 0,1 % of Multiverse. 3.His desicions are canon only if they have their response in comics - without it, they are as worthy as my or Yours wishes. 4.But how does that matter? According to Marvel science he would only create another timeline. That is what we know thanks to Cable. He could came back in time as much as he wants - he can't change his future in this way.
Did you even read anything I said? And if you're claiming he didn't do it under his own power because he pumped energy through Waverider.........LOL. I'm not even going to go into how ridiculous that is.
What are you talking about? Who said anything about Eternity as one universe? Anywhere? He doesn't exist in a single universe, he exists for the multiverse and has Eternities in each universe. That much should just be common knowledge.
No, they are not. You're just being ridiculous now. His word is among the highest authorities in Marvel. They're not even remotely on par with your wishes, or a writer's, or an artist's.
Says who? When has Cable ever actively tried to alter his future in that manner? He was still trying to change the future by interfering with the past in a mini that just ended! Genis stated that killing his past would kill his future. Period.
1.Waverider? I've seen there Parallax Hal. 2.Eternity is one universe. Multi-Eternity is Multiversal. In the same way there is different Death in each other universe. Would You say that IGV is Multiversal just because he killed Eternity? 3.It completly doesn't matter who he is. He can be owner of Marvel Company, editor and author of all Marvel comics and later reveal that he was Stan Lee in disguise whole time - his word still doesn't matter, until it is proven by other comics. Only comics matters. 4.Cable changed time more than once... This acctually comon knowledge, that in Marvel You just create another timeline. Like Age of Apocalypse one.
Chaos war was a result of bad writing. Honestly I think it was a complete typo that the Chaos King destroyed approximately %99 of the multiverse. I think they meant the Universe.
But if Chais King really did absorb %98 of the Multiverse, then technically speaking he should win. Look how big the marvel multiverse is:
I don't know about the DC Multiverse, but I think there are only 52 Universes making up the multiverse where is the marvel multiverse contains over a few 1000s of universes. I'm not implying that Marvel > DC of course, but the destructive power and the amount of left over heroes was very small compared to the amount of heroes the Anti-Monitor was fighting.
If the marvel writers truly meant to say that the Chaos King went on to absorb %98 of the marvel multiverse then he will win here. That is just way too much raw power. If it was indeed a typo and they meant Universe than the Anti-Monitor wins it.
Chaos war was a result of bad writing. Honestly I think it was a complete typo that the Chaos King destroyed approximately %99 of the multiverse. I think they meant the Universe.
But if Chais King really did absorb %98 of the Multiverse, then technically speaking he should win. Look how big the marvel multiverse is:
I don't know about the DC Multiverse, but I think there are only 52 Universes making up the multiverse where is the marvel multiverse contains over a few 1000s of universes. I'm not implying that Marvel > DC of course, but the destructive power and the amount of left over heroes was very small compared to the amount of heroes the Anti-Monitor was fighting.
If the marvel writers truly meant to say that the Chaos King went on to absorb %98 of the marvel multiverse then he will win here. That is just way too much raw power. If it was indeed a typo and they meant Universe than the Anti-Monitor wins it.
Acctually it is even bigger: 2.They meant Multiverse, since even highst powers of Universe 616 were already going to be defeated (Death, Galactus) and Mikaboshi didn't even really had to push any effort into that "battles".
Going with COIE AM... But I'm curious, wtf were the Living Tribunal and the Elder gods when Mikabashi went on his bf
The Living Tribunal was probably in The Dimension of Manifestations or at his base at the tippy-top of The Multiverse chillin' on his throne playing Chess with God because he knew Hercules and Cho would take care of everything and therefore did not see any need to intervene like he has in the past with The Infinity War or that pompous little brat, Protege. *Shivers*
Spectre also showed before Infinite Crisis that he exists in every universe, and in the Emperor Joker arc (also before Infinite Crisis) that Mxy's reality warping could affect every universe, even though there was only one from the point of view of other characters. Alex Luthor did not just create new universes out of nothing, they were shielded away from New Earth and he used the multiverse tower to unshield them. Those universes could only exist if someone brought them back after everything was destroyed during Zero Hour. And who recreated everything during Zero Hour? The Spectre.
I keep asking over and over again, what proof do you have for this? What did Mikaboshi do that sets him above Eternity? Nothing. Again, even at the peak of his power, he was sending matter to oblivion....which is exactly what Eternity does.
What are you talking about? Brevoort is not an artist. He is the editor. His decisions carry more weight than any artist or writer, and if he says it's not canon.....it's not. Period. And that example was wrong, anyway, so I don't know why you're arguing the point.
Ah, but he was not insane in the commonsense understanding of the word, was he? And he never traveled back in time, he was confronted by a past version of himself as well as a future version, and he stated that killing his past would also kill his future. Period.
1.It is not a point that Spectre exists in every universe or not. Here he only recreated one universe. There is nothing that would suggest anything else. Not to mention that is not doing it only on his own power. 2.He absorbed 98% of Multiverse. Eternity as a 1 universe isn't even a 0,1 % of Multiverse. 3.His desicions are canon only if they have their response in comics - without it, they are as worthy as my or Yours wishes. 4.But how does that matter? According to Marvel science he would only create another timeline. That is what we know thanks to Cable. He could came back in time as much as he wants - he can't change his future in this way.
Did you even read anything I said? And if you're claiming he didn't do it under his own power because he pumped energy through Waverider.........LOL. I'm not even going to go into how ridiculous that is.
What are you talking about? Who said anything about Eternity as one universe? Anywhere? He doesn't exist in a single universe, he exists for the multiverse and has Eternities in each universe. That much should just be common knowledge.
No, they are not. You're just being ridiculous now. His word is among the highest authorities in Marvel. They're not even remotely on par with your wishes, or a writer's, or an artist's.
Says who? When has Cable ever actively tried to alter his future in that manner? He was still trying to change the future by interfering with the past in a mini that just ended! Genis stated that killing his past would kill his future. Period.
1.Waverider? I've seen there Parallax Hal. 2.Eternity is one universe. Multi-Eternity is Multiversal. In the same way there is different Death in each other universe. Would You say that IGV is Multiversal just because he killed Eternity?3.It completly doesn't matter who he is. He can be owner of Marvel Company, editor and author of all Marvel comics and later reveal that he was Stan Lee in disguise whole time - his word still doesn't matter, until it is proven by other comics. Only comics matters. 4.Cable changed time more than once... This acctually comon knowledge, that in Marvel You just create another timeline. Like Age of Apocalypse one.
Hal had nothing to do with it. He was finished at that point. The guy Spectre was funneling energy into was Waverider.
What on Earth are you talking about? IGV was multiversal, because it was stated on panel that he destroyed the multiverse. And it was not stated that he destroyed Multi-Eternity, it was stated that he destroyed Eternity. Because the whole "Multi-Eternity" phrase/concept only exists in needlessly overthought stuff like the Abraxas saga. Eternity is multiversal, and he has Eternities in each universe.
I don't even care what your thoughts on the subject are, honestly. Your opinion, fine. But your Akhenaten example was wrong anyway, so I don't see why you're debating the point.
And he was STILL trying to change the future by affecting the past in a mini that just ended. And as for your AOA example, that's wrong too. Xavier was still dead in the AOA universe. The timeline may change, but the person who was killed by time manipulation doesn't magically return back to life.
"I don't understand why what Cho says gets taken at face value when he's only like the 10th smartest person on Earth. "
All the smart people outside him where sleeping during the time and Galactus sure seemed content with ditching the Multiverse. So take it as you will. "
Yes AM wins. Cho didn't exactly calculate correctly.
So you're basing your win on the fact that Amadeus Cho didn't calculate correctly... Hmm. You might as well switch your vote now.
In any case Chaos King gets the win. No tech needed for CK.
"I don't understand why what Cho says gets taken at face value when he's only like the 10th smartest person on Earth. "
All the smart people outside him where sleeping during the time and Galactus sure seemed content with ditching the Multiverse. So take it as you will. "
Yes AM wins. Cho didn't exactly calculate correctly.
So you're basing your win on the fact that Amadeus Cho didn't calculate correctly... Hmm. You might as well switch your vote now.
In any case Chaos King gets the win. No tech needed for CK.
No tech needed for the AM either. That's a very common misconception. He produced his anti-matter wave without needing any tech in both COIE and SCW, the only time he actually used tech was to fuse five universes together.
1.Waverider? I've seen there Parallax Hal. 2.Eternity is one universe. Multi-Eternity is Multiversal. In the same way there is different Death in each other universe. Would You say that IGV is Multiversal just because he killed Eternity?3.It completly doesn't matter who he is. He can be owner of Marvel Company, editor and author of all Marvel comics and later reveal that he was Stan Lee in disguise whole time - his word still doesn't matter, until it is proven by other comics. Only comics matters. 4.Cable changed time more than once... This acctually comon knowledge, that in Marvel You just create another timeline. Like Age of Apocalypse one.
Hal had nothing to do with it. He was finished at that point. The guy Spectre was funneling energy into was Waverider.
What on Earth are you talking about? IGV was multiversal, because it was stated on panel that he destroyed the multiverse. And it was not stated that he destroyed Multi-Eternity, it was stated that he destroyed Eternity. Because the whole "Multi-Eternity" phrase/concept only exists in needlessly overthought stuff like the Abraxas saga. Eternity is multiversal, and he has Eternities in each universe.
I don't even care what your thoughts on the subject are, honestly. Your opinion, fine. But your Akhenaten example was wrong anyway, so I don't see why you're debating the point.
And he was STILL trying to change the future by affecting the past in a mini that just ended. And as for your AOA example, that's wrong too. Xavier was still dead in the AOA universe. The timeline may change, but the person who was killed by time manipulation doesn't magically return back to life.
1.Ok, but how does it prove that it was a multiversal level feat? There were only descriptions about universe. 2.Where it was said that IGV destroyed Multiverse? EDIT: And it still doesn't matter. Destruction of 616 leads to destruction of whole Multiverse, but You doesn't have to be powerfull enough to destroy Multiverse to overpower Eternity 616. He is as powerfull as any other Eternity, until it is said that it is Multi-Eternity. It wasn't said in CW that this is Multi-Eternity 3.It is not about my opinion, it is about facts - none words placed outside of comics matters. 4.That is why I hate Loeb. And Xavier thing proves my point, because Xavier is still alive in 616, while Legion who killed that Xavier was from 616. That is why You have different futures in Marvel and that is why Bishop had to be killed in Cable's series - he was wrong about these deaths. Not to mention that his own future also still existed and it still exist, even while he destroyed these future according to Your opinion.
1.Waverider? I've seen there Parallax Hal. 2.Eternity is one universe. Multi-Eternity is Multiversal. In the same way there is different Death in each other universe. Would You say that IGV is Multiversal just because he killed Eternity?3.It completly doesn't matter who he is. He can be owner of Marvel Company, editor and author of all Marvel comics and later reveal that he was Stan Lee in disguise whole time - his word still doesn't matter, until it is proven by other comics. Only comics matters. 4.Cable changed time more than once... This acctually comon knowledge, that in Marvel You just create another timeline. Like Age of Apocalypse one.
Hal had nothing to do with it. He was finished at that point. The guy Spectre was funneling energy into was Waverider.
What on Earth are you talking about? IGV was multiversal, because it was stated on panel that he destroyed the multiverse. And it was not stated that he destroyed Multi-Eternity, it was stated that he destroyed Eternity. Because the whole "Multi-Eternity" phrase/concept only exists in needlessly overthought stuff like the Abraxas saga. Eternity is multiversal, and he has Eternities in each universe.
I don't even care what your thoughts on the subject are, honestly. Your opinion, fine. But your Akhenaten example was wrong anyway, so I don't see why you're debating the point.
And he was STILL trying to change the future by affecting the past in a mini that just ended. And as for your AOA example, that's wrong too. Xavier was still dead in the AOA universe. The timeline may change, but the person who was killed by time manipulation doesn't magically return back to life.
1.Ok, but how does it prove that it was a multiversal level feat? There were only descriptions about universe. 2.Where it was said that IGV destroyed Multiverse? EDIT: And it still doesn't matter. Destruction of 616 leads to destruction of whole Multiverse, but You doesn't have to be powerfull enough to destroy Multiverse to overpower Eternity 616. He is as powerfull as any other Eternity, until it is said that it is Multi-Eternity. It wasn't said in CW that this is Multi-Eternity 3.It is not about my opinion, it is about facts - none words placed outside of comics matters. 4.That is why I hate Loeb. And Xavier thing proves my point, because Xavier is still alive in 616, while Legion who killed that Xavier was from 616. That is why You have different futures in Marvel and that is why Bishop had to be killed in Cable's series - he was wrong about these deaths. Not to mention that his own future also still existed and it still exist, even while he destroyed these future according to Your opinion.
The destruction of 616 does not lead to the destruction of the multiverse. Come on. That is just ridiculous.
Not getting into this again, either....
I could quote your "I don't care" right back at you and say it's in the comics: deal with it. Xavier was still alive in 616 because Bishop went back in time and killed Legion. That's another character killed by time manipulation. And no alternate universe was formed by Legion's death.
1.Ok, but how does it prove that it was a multiversal level feat? There were only descriptions about universe. 2.Where it was said that IGV destroyed Multiverse? EDIT: And it still doesn't matter. Destruction of 616 leads to destruction of whole Multiverse, but You doesn't have to be powerfull enough to destroy Multiverse to overpower Eternity 616. He is as powerfull as any other Eternity, until it is said that it is Multi-Eternity. It wasn't said in CW that this is Multi-Eternity 3.It is not about my opinion, it is about facts - none words placed outside of comics matters. 4.That is why I hate Loeb. And Xavier thing proves my point, because Xavier is still alive in 616, while Legion who killed that Xavier was from 616. That is why You have different futures in Marvel and that is why Bishop had to be killed in Cable's series - he was wrong about these deaths. Not to mention that his own future also still existed and it still exist, even while he destroyed these future according to Your opinion.
The destruction of 616 does not lead to the destruction of the multiverse. Come on. That is just ridiculous.
Not getting into this again, either....
I could quote your "I don't care" right back at you and say it's in the comics: deal with it. Xavier was still alive in 616 because Bishop went back in time and killed Legion. That's another character killed by time manipulation. And no alternate universe was formed by Legion's death.
1.No problem, but Spectre's feat was universal 2.Thanks. In which issue it was published? 3.One of the Watcher's words, not mine. 4.616 came back to exist after that. We've had one universe, we have two universes now. How it doesn't prove my point?
1.Ok, but how does it prove that it was a multiversal level feat? There were only descriptions about universe. 2.Where it was said that IGV destroyed Multiverse? EDIT: And it still doesn't matter. Destruction of 616 leads to destruction of whole Multiverse, but You doesn't have to be powerfull enough to destroy Multiverse to overpower Eternity 616. He is as powerfull as any other Eternity, until it is said that it is Multi-Eternity. It wasn't said in CW that this is Multi-Eternity 3.It is not about my opinion, it is about facts - none words placed outside of comics matters. 4.That is why I hate Loeb. And Xavier thing proves my point, because Xavier is still alive in 616, while Legion who killed that Xavier was from 616. That is why You have different futures in Marvel and that is why Bishop had to be killed in Cable's series - he was wrong about these deaths. Not to mention that his own future also still existed and it still exist, even while he destroyed these future according to Your opinion.
The destruction of 616 does not lead to the destruction of the multiverse. Come on. That is just ridiculous.
Not getting into this again, either....
I could quote your "I don't care" right back at you and say it's in the comics: deal with it. Xavier was still alive in 616 because Bishop went back in time and killed Legion. That's another character killed by time manipulation. And no alternate universe was formed by Legion's death.
1.No problem, but Spectre's feat was universal 2.Thanks. In which issue it was published? 3.One of the Watcher's words, not mine. 4.616 came back to exist after that. We've had one universe, we have two universes now. How it doesn't prove my point?
It was not. I have no wish to repeat myself. Go back and read what I said.
Don't remember.
Which is obviously an idiotic statement from the Watcher. Nothing of the sort happens.
616 was always there. It was simply changed. And yet both Xavier and Legion did not exist in the AOA reality, and when 616 was restored Legion was killed and that didn't spawn a new universe. Coupled with Genis' statement, how does it not disprove your point?
1.Ok, but how does it prove that it was a multiversal level feat? There were only descriptions about universe. 2.Where it was said that IGV destroyed Multiverse? EDIT: And it still doesn't matter. Destruction of 616 leads to destruction of whole Multiverse, but You doesn't have to be powerfull enough to destroy Multiverse to overpower Eternity 616. He is as powerfull as any other Eternity, until it is said that it is Multi-Eternity. It wasn't said in CW that this is Multi-Eternity 3.It is not about my opinion, it is about facts - none words placed outside of comics matters. 4.That is why I hate Loeb. And Xavier thing proves my point, because Xavier is still alive in 616, while Legion who killed that Xavier was from 616. That is why You have different futures in Marvel and that is why Bishop had to be killed in Cable's series - he was wrong about these deaths. Not to mention that his own future also still existed and it still exist, even while he destroyed these future according to Your opinion.
The destruction of 616 does not lead to the destruction of the multiverse. Come on. That is just ridiculous.
Not getting into this again, either....
I could quote your "I don't care" right back at you and say it's in the comics: deal with it. Xavier was still alive in 616 because Bishop went back in time and killed Legion. That's another character killed by time manipulation. And no alternate universe was formed by Legion's death.
1.No problem, but Spectre's feat was universal 2.Thanks. In which issue it was published? 3.One of the Watcher's words, not mine. 4.616 came back to exist after that. We've had one universe, we have two universes now. How it doesn't prove my point?
It was not. I have no wish to repeat myself. Go back and read what I said.
Don't remember.
Which is obviously an idiotic statement from the Watcher. Nothing of the sort happens.
616 was always there. It was simply changed. And yet both Xavier and Legion did not exist in the AOA reality, and when 616 was restored Legion was killed and that didn't spawn a new universe. Coupled with Genis' statement, how does it not disprove your point?
1.This isn't an answer at all. You were wrong there and YOu've didn't prove by Your scans that whole Multiverse was recreated. 2.It does matter, since it could be handbook, but ok we can leave that. 3.How can You be sure that it is just a stupid statement? 4.AoA was created trough Legion's manipulations with time. My point is jumps in time creates new universes. How does it not prove that I am right?
EDIT: And about Cable: http://marvel.wikia.com/Earth-4935 This is future rulled by Apocalypse. This is future in which Cable was raised. Still, he came back to Earth 616 and by changing future, he just created new time-line. Now both - future without Apoc and with Apoc exists. The same with Bishop's time sliding.
1.Ok, but how does it prove that it was a multiversal level feat? There were only descriptions about universe. 2.Where it was said that IGV destroyed Multiverse? EDIT: And it still doesn't matter. Destruction of 616 leads to destruction of whole Multiverse, but You doesn't have to be powerfull enough to destroy Multiverse to overpower Eternity 616. He is as powerfull as any other Eternity, until it is said that it is Multi-Eternity. It wasn't said in CW that this is Multi-Eternity 3.It is not about my opinion, it is about facts - none words placed outside of comics matters. 4.That is why I hate Loeb. And Xavier thing proves my point, because Xavier is still alive in 616, while Legion who killed that Xavier was from 616. That is why You have different futures in Marvel and that is why Bishop had to be killed in Cable's series - he was wrong about these deaths. Not to mention that his own future also still existed and it still exist, even while he destroyed these future according to Your opinion.
The destruction of 616 does not lead to the destruction of the multiverse. Come on. That is just ridiculous.
Not getting into this again, either....
I could quote your "I don't care" right back at you and say it's in the comics: deal with it. Xavier was still alive in 616 because Bishop went back in time and killed Legion. That's another character killed by time manipulation. And no alternate universe was formed by Legion's death.
1.No problem, but Spectre's feat was universal 2.Thanks. In which issue it was published? 3.One of the Watcher's words, not mine. 4.616 came back to exist after that. We've had one universe, we have two universes now. How it doesn't prove my point?
It was not. I have no wish to repeat myself. Go back and read what I said.
Don't remember.
Which is obviously an idiotic statement from the Watcher. Nothing of the sort happens.
616 was always there. It was simply changed. And yet both Xavier and Legion did not exist in the AOA reality, and when 616 was restored Legion was killed and that didn't spawn a new universe. Coupled with Genis' statement, how does it not disprove your point?
1.This isn't an answer at all. You were wrong there and YOu've didn't prove by Your scans that whole Multiverse was recreated. 2.It does matter, since it could be handbook, but ok we can leave that. 3.How can You be sure that it is just a stupid statement? 4.AoA was created trough Legion's manipulations with time. My point is jumps in time creates new universes. How does it not prove that I am right?
How was I wrong? You didn't even bother addressing any of that. You just went "No, you didn't prove anything", despite the fact that you didn't actually read any of that. Maybe we should just drop the subject if you're not going to bother with it. I'm not going to go into it at any rate. I already stated my point.
It wasn't a handbook. It was the recap for the issue right after. I just don't remember the exact issue number.
Because the 616 universe has been in plenty of precarious situations without any mention of the multiverse coming to harm. This is not rocket science.
Your point should be that any creation of new universes somehow supersedes the deaths of the people who were killed by time manipulation. Xavier and Legion were both dead in the AOA reality. Genis killing his past self would have created a new timeline, but in that timeline he would be dead. That is the whole point, what I have been saying over and over and oh for the love of god please don't make me repeat myself again. Bishop went back in time and killed Legion. No new universe was formed. Again, you're either trying to prove an irrelevant point or you're just disproving your own point through your examples.
1.This isn't an answer at all. You were wrong there and YOu've didn't prove by Your scans that whole Multiverse was recreated. 2.It does matter, since it could be handbook, but ok we can leave that. 3.How can You be sure that it is just a stupid statement? 4.AoA was created trough Legion's manipulations with time. My point is jumps in time creates new universes. How does it not prove that I am right?
How was I wrong? You didn't even bother addressing any of that. You just went "No, you didn't prove anything", despite the fact that you didn't actually read any of that. Maybe we should just drop the subject if you're not going to bother with it. I'm not going to go into it at any rate. I already stated my point.
It wasn't a handbook. It was the recap for the issue right after. I just don't remember the exact issue number.
Because the 616 universe has been in plenty of precarious situations without any mention of the multiverse coming to harm. This is not rocket science.
Your point should be that any creation of new universes somehow supersedes the deaths of the people who were killed by time manipulation. Xavier and Legion were both dead in the AOA reality. Genis killing his past self would have created a new timeline, but in that timeline he would be dead. That is the whole point, what I have been saying over and over and oh for the love of god please don't make me repeat myself again. Bishop went back in time and killed Legion. No new universe was formed. Again, you're either trying to prove an irrelevant point or you're just disproving your own point through your examples.
1.I've read it and I don't see where it was said that SPectre recreated multiverse. 3.Not my call. I don't agree with it either, but it was siad. 4.In that timeline - yes, in first timeline - no, so Mikaboshi from 616 would still be alive. Anti-Monitor would just create another timeline without Mikaboshi in this place. This means that there would be no 987^503#543##65-Earth version, but Mikaboshi-616 would still be alive.
What? To those of you that are claiming stalemate. Why?
COIE Anti-monitor was a proven multiversal threat.
Chaos King lost by getting punched into a different empty Universe. He didn't even fight against more than one Universe.
The flaw here is, AM is pure antimatter, and the CK is pure nothingness that can make all matter part of nothingness. It is definitely a stalemate, because the CK consumed 98% of the Marvel Multiverse and there was no way he could be defeated due to being nothing except by BFR. Anyway they are both Multiversal threats, one by Antimatter and one by nothingness, so it is a stalemate. But unlike the AM, the CK is a Multiversal Singularity.
@tdk_1997: Funny thing about it is, the Chaos King can't be destroyed because he is Already nothingness and Nonexistence, the antithesis of existence, which I'm pretty sure includes Antimatter. Going by logic, destroying nothingness is impossible.
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