Cloud Strife and Sora vs. Dante and Vergil

BECAUSE I'M REPPING MY MAIN MAN SORA, AND MY OTHER MAIN MAN DANTE. PROBLEM!?!?!

Yo @neongamewave, how do you feel about all of this?

Like, obviously Sora beats Dante.

But this guy is trying to argue that Dante isn't lightspeed!

What say you?!?!

You can skip the part where you admit Sora is one of Dante's few superiors, I already know that ;)

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow: How about because he almost never fights in cutscenes?....

Yes, he does. Ur saying Dante have never fought in cutscenes?

Incorrect, he fought that fast in the battle against Xemnas, as I showed above.

I'm talking about Dante, not Sora.

Please, stop asking me if I think *insert character name here is lightspeed* when I know nothing about them.

It's just that his power is light itself. Yet characters who do not have FTL reaction & movement have dodged it. I'm just making an comparison. Both possess *light* powers but they don't necessary travel at light speed. I can mention bunch of other characters who can fire beams of light but it's obvious that they do not travel that fast.

@theorder14:

Yes, he does. Ur saying Dante have never fought in cutscenes?

Oh, Dante! Well Dante has displayed super impressive speed feats in cutscenes mate!

Fight so fast that they block every raindrop falling down in the sphere around them. Do you realize how fast they would have to be fighting to do that?

Blitzes the Despair Embodied, who is a powerful specifically stated to have GODLIKE power. And he does it casually.

Toys with the Savior. Barely even trying, and yet at 0:26 he is able to somehow completely disappear before the Savior can close his hand. And he did this while hanging by his sword.

I'm talking about Dante, not Sora.

Yeah, we're on the same page now!

And I showed you plenty of speed feats, all of which are super impressive, and arguably FTL.

He's definitely not inconsistent, as all of those feats he does casually.

It's just that his power is light itself. Yet characters who do not have FTL reaction & movement have dodged it. I'm just making an comparison. Both possess *light* powers but they don't necessary travel at light speed. I can mention bunch of other characters who can fire beams of light but it's obvious that they do not travel that fast.

But those people aren't relevant here.

Some other day, maybe you and I will have an argument about those same Fairy Tail characters that you're bringing up right now!

But for this moment, we're focusing solely on Dante. Just because those people may not necessarily be FTL, doesn't mean Dante isn't.

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow:

And I showed you plenty of speed feats, all of which are super impressive, and arguably FTL.

He's definitely not inconsistent, as all of those feats he does casually.

Those feats are not even close to FTL. They're hypersonic at best. I've seen far greater speed feats from other characters and nowhere do i consider them FTL. What makes him FTL in these scenes exactly? That disappearing from sight scene could be merely hypersonic and is not quantifiable.Besides, he's clearly not faster than his bullets in the last video.

Vergil is the weak link considering Dante is eons above him.

@theorder14:

Those feats are not even close to FTL.

I said arguably.

They're hypersonic at best.

Arguably.

I've seen far greater speed feats from other characters and nowhere do i consider them FTL.

What are your standards for FTL then? Because you don't accept outracing light, you don't accept ambiguous yet obviously impressive feats...

So what feat would a character have to do for you to consider it FTL?

What makes him FTL in these scenes exactly?

Well, in the first one blocking every raindrop is an arguably FTL feat. Arguably of course, as I'm not entirely sure how to calculate that.

In the second one, he blitzed a being with the power of a god.

And in the third, notice that you can see him hanging on to the hand for the entirety of the time the Savior smashes his hand. You seem him on their even the nanosecond before the Savior claps his hands together, and he's hanging on his sword while doing it. It's a considerable feat. Not necessarily FTL, but definitely shows that the FTL feat isn't inconsistent.

That disappearing from sight scene could be merely hypersonic and is not quantifiable.

It's a completely empty battlefield if you're talking about the one against the Despair Embodied, so I don't know how he could disappear unless he was moving at incredible speeds.....

Besides, he's clearly not faster than his bullets in the last video.

I'm not sure what you're referring to.

But He's consistently been portrayed as dodging bullets with absolute EASE, and the only time they tag him is when he feels like tanking them. Which is a lot, he tanks damage a lot sometimes.

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow:

What are your standards for FTL then? Because you don't accept outracing light, you don't accept ambiguous yet obviously impressive feats...

So what feat would a character have to do for you to consider it FTL?

I only consider them light speed if they're

1. Stated to be light speed
2. If they outpace an atk or enemy that is stated to be light speed

I find it hard to believe they're light speed any other time.

Well, in the first one blocking every raindrop is an arguably FTL feat. Arguably of course, as I'm not entirely sure how to calculate that.

That's nowhere FTL. I've even seen them calced to be hypersonic at best but i find most calcs unreliable.

In the second one, he blitzed a being with the power of a god.

Which doesn't rly mean anything if that god doesn't have any speed feat. Not quantifiable.

And in the third, notice that you can see him hanging on to the hand for the entirety of the time the Savior smashes his hand. You seem him on their even the nanosecond before the Savior claps his hands together, and he's hanging on his sword while doing it. It's a considerable feat. Not necessarily FTL, but definitely shows that the FTL feat isn't inconsistent.

Seriously? Nanosecond? I've seen lots of other characters pulling of the very same stuff & that can easily be achived even if one is Mach 5. Honestly, ur saying Dante can travel at Mach 880991? It sounds ridiculous.

Fact is, he don't even have a single quantifiable feat that put him at LS & never once have he fought at Mach 880991. Hypersonic i can agree but there's simple not enough feats for him to become LS.

@jmarshmallow:

How do you figure?

You claim he runs from one laser to another but all there is to it is Riku and Sora changing positions anyway the point even if its reacting to 6/7 of them at the same time outrunning one is still more impressive

Yes, I know. But that was Sparda, we're talking about Dante and Vergil. We really don't know how much of that is hyperbole, or how much of that was really Yamato's power as opposed to just being Sparda's power.

It's just a really unquantifiable weapon.

Well the power of Yamato depends on the wielder since it runs on demonic energy so we will have table like this.

Dante with Yamato>>Sparda with Yamato>>Vergil with Yamato

Also please Sparda's s myth is the most important piece of background info for DMC games which heavily effect the scenario in every single game

Vergil with Dante beat Sparda empowered Arkham so Vergil's power should is at least comparable to Sparda's

Breaking seals =/= being equal in power my friend!

I didn't said Vergil is equal to Sparda and my point was Vergil with Yamato was strong enough to destroy 4 seals made by Sparda(which I explained how powerful it can be in my previous post)

@theorder14:

I only consider them light speed if they're

1. Stated to be light speed
2. If they outpace an atk or enemy that is stated to be light speed

I find it hard to believe they're light speed any other time.

Hm. Well alright then.

Since you like to do it, allow me to give this a try.

Now, since those Beams are "Light Speed," since it WAS specifically stated after all, let's look at everyone who outpaced them...

So, let's recap.

If we go by your logic of "It has to be stated for it to be a lightspeed feat," then that means that Daredevil, Deadpool, Wolverine, Captain America, and Magneto are all lightspeed now?

Now I know I said we shouldn't bring other characters into this, but I had to make a point.

You shouldn't base a feat off solely statements my friend. While statements certainly help, and provide much needed details, they can be fallible as well.

Feats are much more important.

That's nowhere FTL. I've even seen them calced to be hypersonic at best but i find most calcs unreliable.

Contradicting yourself my friend!

First you said you've seen them calced to be hypersonic, and then you say that they're unreliable?

Well if they're unrelieable, then it's possible that they miscalculated and that was actually an FTL feat!

Which doesn't rly mean anything if that god doesn't have any speed feat. Not quantifiable.

You're right, it is unquantifiable. It's pretty hard to have exact calcs in a video game.

However, it is an extremely impressive feat, and one that signifies and demonstrates Dante's immense speed.

Seriously? Nanosecond?

Goodness, I wasn't being literal.

I've seen lots of other characters pulling of the very same stuff & that can easily be achived even if one is Mach 5. Honestly, ur saying Dante can travel at Mach 880991? It sounds ridiculous.

You've seen someone holding on to a giant powerful demons hand by hanging off a sword, and that same someone move so fast that they disappear, despite the fact that you can clearly see that someone the entire time down to the exact moment where the demon claps his hand together?

Really? You've seen that "very same stuff"? I'd seroiusly love to see that!

Fact is, he don't even have a single quantifiable feat that put him at LS & never once have he fought at Mach 880991. Hypersonic i can agree but there's simple not enough feats for him to become LS.

Except for outpacing light, of course.

Jmarshmallow

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow:

If we go by your logic of "It has to be stated for it to be a lightspeed feat," then that means that Daredevil, Deadpool, Wolverine, Captain America, and Magneto are all lightspeed now?

Now I know I said we shouldn't bring other characters into this, but I had to make a point.

You shouldn't base a feat off solely statements my friend. While statements certainly help, and provide much needed details, they can be fallible as well.

Feats are much more important.

Jesus christ, they're obviously aim-dodging him.

Yes, feat r important if they r shown and stated.

Contradicting yourself my friend!

First you said you've seen them calced to be hypersonic, and then you say that they're unreliable?

Well if they're unrelieable, then it's possible that they miscalculated and that was actually an FTL feat!

I never contradicted myself. I said that other ppl calced that way but i find them unreliable & i have not found any FTL calcs. christ >.>

You're right, it is unquantifiable. It's pretty hard to have exact calcs in a video game.

However, it is an extremely impressive feat, and one that signifies and demonstrates Dante's immense speed.

Well, i've seen far more impressive feats. For example, travelling 4km per sec. Dante have never once done so.

You've seen someone holding on to a giant powerful demons hand by hanging off a sword, and that same someone move so fast that they disappear, despite the fact that you can clearly see that someone the entire time down to the exact moment where the demon claps his hand together?

I mean disappearing out of sight off-screen. Most character can easily pull that off.

Except for outpacing light, of course.

we already went through this. Ur basically saying he can travel around the earth 7 times under a second >.>

@jmarshmallow

This is a good match-up and I really like the arguments that are being made on both sides :) But I think Cloud is the weak-link and that will give Team 2 more of the advantage to win. In terms of Sora vs Dante (two characters who are both favorites and are equal to me) I think that Dante has the advantage due to the fact that he is more skilled, stronger, durable and even if Sora was to be in some way, somehow faster, it wouldn`t matter because Dante would still be able to outlast him. I also have to disagree with the idea of the Keyblade being greater than Yamato, Yamato has been confirmed by the creators to being able to cut through dimensions, realities and it was confirmed outside of the games in the canon-manga to being just that. Also it was Sparda who separated complete universes with Yamato which has even acted as a medium to allowing two different planes of existence to operate together that alone showcases that Yamato like the Keyblade is a special type of key all on its own. I would say the Keyblade has more feats but it doesn`t have the quantifiable feats to say that it is greater than Yamato`s quality of feats IMO.

@jmarshmallow:

It might be a more impressive travel speed feat, but Sora's is certainly a more impressive reaction/combat speed feat.

He REACTS and DEFLECTS an OMNIDIRECTIONAL assault of lasers, whereas Dante just beats light before it can reach the target.

So Dante might run faster, but Sora fights faster.

It's like Surfer vs. Flash. Surfer can travel across the Universe with ease, but Wally can still blitz him because his combat and reaction speed are far better.

You right when those two feats compared Dante showed more speed while Sora showed more perception speed but Dante has demostrated more skill and perception than Sora ever did in

As much as I'd like to agree, where are you basing this off of? Dante hasn't done anything more impressive with Yamato than Sparda has done.

Sheer fact his demonic powers far exceeds Sparda's powers

I agree. But we didn't actually see it, so I'm just saying that there could be context, that's all.

Trust me, I'm not lowballing anything, I'm one of the biggest Dante fans on this website.

But Yamato hasn't displayed anything on the level of the Keyblade. It's all just speculation and statements.

I don't think I need any context for Sparda sealing the demon world but here is a context telling that half of the universe was the demon world and the other half is the human world and also the fact they were in the same dimension

Yeah, but that's nothing. Sora with the Keyblade is able to open and lock entire WORLDS, and he does it casually. Sparda used all his power just to seal the door between the demon world and earth.

So I'm going to have to stick with the fact that

Keyblade >>> Yamato.

Keyblades can simply open and lock portals between dimensions while Sparda sealed away half of the universe making them two seperate no Keyblade can do this

@neongamewave What do you think about this?You are the guy I know on except JM who knows both DMC and KH

@jmarshmallow

I also agree that both Sora and Dante are officially light-speed in every category when it comes to reaction/reflex/combat speed their not only consistent but they have feats which would even dwarf a lot of fast characters in general who wouldn`t be classified as even massively hypersonic but quite passed that.

@theorder14

Both Sora and Dante are lightspeed, especially Dante. Dante went from simply dodging lightning and outracing or outmaneuvering raindrops to dodging light attacks and legit laser beams another thing is Dante can teleport which on its own would be more useful and valuable than just simply moving at lightspeed within combat. Dante also has entered re-entry levels at his weakest and youngest during DMC 3 which basically would be in the Mach 25 + range and I put a lot of emphasis on the addition sign. So with that said we both know Dante has been already massively hypersonic at his lowest and weakest in his entire series so graduating to lightspeed is only the real answer to what comes next, if you want the feats or videos then let me know, I`ll post them.

Now as for the Keyblade master Sora has dodged lasers and like Dante he has made lightning look like a joke when outpacing it in his training days another thing is both him and Riku both reacted as well as deflected more than hundreds of lasers in their final climax when facing Xemnas. Sora during KH 1 and Chain of Memories has even managed to blitz the fastest of characters in his respective universe so if there is one character who deserves the title of being lightspeed its Sora, if you want feats for him, I`ll post them as well.

@colliderz

I really like all the arguments being made for both sides as I told @jmarshmallow

I agree with you on Yamato being more powerful than the Keyblade and I don`t see why it wouldn`t be considering the one who is wielding it in this match is Vergil that means a lot even if you are to put aside the heavy details such as feats, lore and just about everything else. He is more experienced, skilled and he is definitely more hardcore than Sora. Sora is not going to be facing a Son of Sparda he is going to be facing two Sons of Sparda, Cloud will go down fast in my opinion especially without materia even if he were to be maxed out it wouldn`t make much of a difference since he is facing heavily resistant to magic characters which is both Dante and Vergil.

@neongamewave: Both Sora and Dante are lightspeed, especially Dante. Dante went from simply dodging lightning and outracing or outmaneuvering raindrops to dodging light attacks and legit laser beams another thing is Dante can teleport which on its own would be more useful and valuable than just simply moving at lightspeed within combat. Dante also has entered re-entry levels at his weakest and youngest during DMC 3 which basically would be in the Mach 25 + range and I put a lot of emphasis on the addition sign. So with that said we both know Dante has been already massively hypersonic at his lowest and weakest in his entire series so graduating to lightspeed is only the real answer to what comes next, if you want the feats or videos then let me know, I`ll post them.

Already seen them & i've played every DmC game. Raindrop feat can easily be achived at hypersonic speed & going from Mach 25 to Mach 880991 is a huge leap. There's simply not enough feats of him going at light speed and he have never fought that fast. + The animation of the game is a bit iffy.

I mean, if Dante is LS because of this scene.

Then i guess Trish is also LS too?

Honestly,he doesn't have enough feats that makes him LS imo. There's no statements, nothing to quantify & it comes down to speculations + powerscaling.

Sora i believe have not shown any light speed movements. LS reaction at the end of KH 2 i could agree but not movement.

Anyways, i've made my case & this is merely my opinion. I just don't think he's Mach 880991. That's a speed that can travel several of times around the earth in seconds.

@theorder14

Jesus christ, they're obviously aim-dodging him.

No. Wolverine didn't aim dodge, he's literally right next to him and moved to the side. Then he later deflected it with a sword, and it bounced off and went for Cap, who blocked it with his shield. That's not aim-dodging.

Yes, feat r important if they r shown and stated.

Feats are what define a character's abilities, not statements.

I never contradicted myself. I said that other ppl calced that way but i find them unreliable & i have not found any FTL calcs. christ >.>

If you think they're unreliable, and you haven't found any that state FTL speed calcs, it's because they're unreliable, not because it isn't an FTL feat.

Well, i've seen far more impressive feats. For example, travelling 4km per sec. Dante have never once done so.

So you say, all those times when Dante just disappeared could easily be 4km per sec.

I mean disappearing out of sight off-screen. Most character can easily pull that off.

Dante's was a little bit more than that, though. That's the point I was making.

we already went through this. Ur basically saying he can travel around the earth 7 times under a second >.>

I'm not saying anything. I'm stating a feat. And the feat is, he outpaced light.

Anyway, I'm gonna leave the Dante lightspeed argument to @neongamewave. He's gotta rep his favorite character!

Agreed, but again, Sora is most definitely faster in combat/reaction/reflex speed based on feats.

Btw, I might be coming off as a little strong, but that's only because I've been waiting to match Dante up against Sora for quite some time now! I'm very excited! xD

Jmarshmallow

Lingering Will isn't Terra's soul instead it's his mind.

@kuja9001: Oh come on now, you know what I meant.

Semantics man, semantics.

Jmarshmallow

Come on guys....

Sora gets taken out by Dante.

And VERGIL kills Cloud.

DANTE is way more skilled and stronger than Sora. I don't really know much about Dora's durability. Can any expert explain me?

Team 2.

@jmarshmallow: Dante's rebellion couldn't scratch Nero's devil bringer but Yamato pierced it effortlessly. In DMC4 Yamato has 2 specific moves with descriptions.

Slash dimension F - A swift motion of the blade that cuts through dimensional barriers and unleashes a vortex of destruction.

Slash dimension C - A swift motion of the blade that cuts through dimensional barriers and unleashes a slicing cyclone with you at its origin.

Vergil was creating multiple slash vortexes and teleporting with Yamato in the the last fight of DMC3. The only time it has showed limitations was against another weapon from the same creator. Sparda only carried Yamato and Force Edge for a reason (not counting his pistols).

@jmarshmallow:

When has Dante demonstrated more skill and perception on Sora's level?

The billardo scene from DMC3's begining is more impressive IMO.Yes I know thats not a speed feats but Dante percieved the exact locations that the balls will hit and fired his gun according to that which is a pretty good perception feat

Also for skill on weaponry Dante showed insane level skill on weapons that he he first obtained them and they majority of them are very unique weapons

He also owned over 2000 years old pupils of Sparda(Bael and Modeus) without any notable effort

Because you say so? Where's the evidence though?

Just powerscaling as after DMC1 in timeline Dante fought and stomped both Abigail and Despair Embodied whom were stated to be on par with Saprda and Mundus

The Keyblade does the EXACT same thing. It separates dimensions so that they don't intertwine, and so that the Darkness doesn't creep into their worlds.

Sora does the EXACT same thing Sparda did, but he's done it MULTIPLE times, and with EASE.\

Sora opens and locks worlds that are already a dimension and had dimensional barriers along with dimensional properties in the begining on their own while Sparda seperated the entire universe into two while it was originally one

@neongamewave:

And so it begins!

I agree, he isn`t but he doesn`t quite match Dante`s experience,

Experience can only do so much, Sora has made up for his lack of experience, as evident by his defeat of the Lingering Will.

style, uniqueness and swordsmanship which looks also more awesome because of his showmanship.

It seems here like you're under the impression that flashy fighting is somehow superior?

Sora and his Keyblade are just as unique as Dante, just because his style isn't all over the place like Dante's doesn't make it any less potent.

I remember that feat and I still remember playing it, it was awesome but I don`t see how Dante wouldn`t be able to replicate that and clear them faster.

Because Dante has never displayed going against an amount of opponents that large? So saying that he would be able to do it faster is pure assumption. Dante has maxed out at about a group of 50 or so enemies simultaneously. Not even close to 1,000.

Not saying he can't do it, I think he can of course. But to say he can do it "faster" is ridiculous, we don't even know how long it took Sora.

Dante beat an actual swordsman who practices laido his brother Vergil self trained himself from a very young age with limited resources Squall`s skill doesn`t match up with how Vergil wields Yamato

I'd argue that Squall is just as skilled, he just doesn't have the physicals of Vergil. But he wields the gunblade equally as well as Vergil wields Yamato.

and I`ve proven many times why Vergil is a littler superior to Sephiroth not only is Yamato>Masamune but the flow, structure, strategy and mastery in which Vergil wields his sword is unparalleled.

Based off what? I'm not seeing any evidence suggesting that Vergil is superior to Sephiroth.

Dante also defeated his father`s apprentices in the canon anime both being trained by the best swordsman in all of demon world for thousands of years and Dante beat them easily, one of the brothers is strong enough to kill thousands of demons just like Sora yet he owned by Dante who didn`t even tap into his demon blood much.

Those two were basically featless besides statements though...

So i don't know what makes them so special. Especially since Sora could beat them both with ease, as he's done with Sephiroth and Cloud. Not to mention all of them members of Organization 13, most of which are MUCH more powerful than those two.

Dante also beat Nero who would be quite admirably close in Sora`s range,

Not even close, Sora would stomp Nero. Dante is a solid enough opponent (still not strong enough, but I digress), but Nero isn't close to strong enough.

Nero was super-strong and super-skilled with his Red Queen sword, Dante also beat his brother again when he became Nelo Angelo

This kinda seems to me like a bit of a circular argument.

Your argument for Dante being more skilled is that he beats Vergil, but Vergil's skill is also in question here, as I don't believe it's anywhere near Sora.

Dante and Sora may be equal, but Vergil is below both of them.

another thing is Dante has shown far greater master of many, many, many weapons and he does so with ease, I wouldn`t be surprised if he were able to instantly click with the Keyblade and outdo Sora with it.

Quality > Quantity

The fact of the matter is, only Sora can wield Sora's Keyblade. This has been proven time and time again throughout the series.

It's only been taken from him once, and it was because he let his heart falter. He won't be doing that again.

And on top of that, Sora can master any weapon instantly as well.

Here he takes Saix weapon from him and proceeds to use it perfectly:

Sora has also been matched by Riku and Roxas neither whom are as gifted or as talented as Dante.

Sora beat both Riku and Roxas, so I'm not sure where you got that from. But both of them are superior to Vergil, so it's a moot point anyway.

That boss fight was superb!

Agreed, epic stuff!

But Dante like I mentioned took on Nelo Angelo who housed the soul of Vergil an already mentally perfected swordsman who grew much stronger he`s even remarked by Dante as being a man of guts and honor which is shown within his sword fighting style.

A statement with no real weight against an opponent as strong as Sora!

Dante beat him during his growing years so its the same with Dante only more impressive because Nelo actually kind of had some advantages over Dante besides skill or experience and he was amped by Mundus at the same time. Dante also beat Agni and Rudra guardians who were instructed by Sparda to guard the Tower which housed his power and both have thousands of years of experience, Dante beat them at the age of 18. He took on two extremely skilled and competent swordsman one wielding the element of wind and the other fire also they were unbeatable until Dante came along.

Again, all that is fine and good. But all of that is useless unless those guys have legitimate feats which, if my memory serves me, they do not. (Not counting Nelo, of course)

Terra on the other hand, has an entire game filled with feats, that all prove his legendary status, as opposed to all of the statements and hyperbole of all the characters you listed.

Nelo vs Terra would be a good fight, but it only goes to show how equal Sora and Dante are when it comes to skill.

Which is what I'm arguing here. Not that one has an advantage over the other in skill, that they're equal.

Usually Dante is also holding back when demonstrating his immense and enormous abilities unlike Sora who actually does not hold back most of the time and a good deal of times he can get a bit overwhelmed while Dante is having fun.

This is UNBELIEVABLY untrue.

Sora is almost NEVER going all out when he fights. Even against Sephiroth he was just messing around!

Sora has really only put all effort forward ONCE, and it was against Xemnas. That's the only time he showed any sort of fatigue, and even then it was very minor.

Likewise, Dante put all his effort forward once against Mundus. Yet again proving how equal they are skill-wise.

Not true, that statue at-least must be way more than many tons in the hundreds range also Dante pushed its dead-weight off easily while fighting it for MANY HOURS and he didn`t even seem tired. This same being was being powered by millenniums worth of demonic energy and it has cracked stone with ease.

Unquantifiable, we have no idea how much the statue weighed, thus it can't be used as a legitimate feat. We know it can crack stone with ease, but you don't even have to be a Class 10 to do that. Not even CLOSE to Sora, who was cutting 6 skyscrapers in one swipe with ease.

Dante at the age of 18 was able to parry, grapple and compete with a hundred tonner named Beowulf who was once a prime enemy of Sparda also this being can cause shockwaves, crack ancient stone easily and make the whole area shake.

What makes Beowulf a hundred tonner?

And even if he is, Hercules is way stronger, as he tossed multiple Titans into space.

Dante has pretty much done the same he has even managed to easily cut through the Savior which the Red Queen wasn`t able to do and its even confirmed in the game that it takes a lot to actually break through yet Dante does so easily. That takes a lot of striking power to accomplish, Dante has also repelled a demon with so much force but so little enforcement that the demon crashed all the way down into an alleyway from the dining room they were fighting in this occurred in the anime.

All good stuff, but still not comparable to slicing through multiple skyscrapers like butter.

That is a much more impressive striking feat, and we both know it.

Dante was able to outmuscle and outdo Nero who was able to crush the Savior, break through stone, steel, and toss large demons.

Nero "crushing" the Savior is a bit of a stretch, let's be honest here. He beat him, but it wasn't through brute strength.

The rest isn't anything impressive strength wise.

Nero can do everything that Sora has done

Not even close. Dante couldn't even do that.

and even he doesn`t come close to a Dante who was only casually toying with him which was confirmed by Dante.

Irrelevant, since Sora >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nero.

And I don`t see how Dante wouldn`t be able to replicate that when he has sliced through skyscraper level structures such as the Hell Gates.

Skyscapers are not only bigger than Hell Gates, but also thicker. Not only that, but Sora cut SIX in one swipe. A much more impressive feat than Hell Gates.

He resisted being swallowed by the green demon during DMC 4 which can be comparable to that of what Sora does when fighting the Cerberus.

Comparable, maybe, but still not as impressive.

Dante also stomped Abigail a demon who was compared to Mundus and he killed this demon in one strike with one burst of his demonic blood (it wasn`t really his DT) since he is going out here, Sora is going to have a hard time and I haven`t even actually covered all of his strength feats I can detail more but I`ll leave it at here.

I know most of them, I'm a huge Dante fan remember! Almost as much as you! And I can confirm that none of them are even CLOSE to cutting through skyscrapers.

Dante also threw Cerberus across the room, his Cerberus a lot of the feats you mentioned for Sora could easily be replicated by Dante and we don`t see Sora lifting or resisting a lot in the realm of strength his striking power is good but Dante is better IMO.

Sora's striking feats are most certainly better than Dante, no doubt about it. I don't know how you can argue the contrary when Dante has no feats comparable to cutting six skycrapers like butter in one swipe. NOTHING Dante has done is comparable to that.

As for lifting/resisting strength feats...

Able to block the foot of the Groundshaker, who is MUCH bigger than any other mountain nearby except Pride Rock. And Sora does this in Lion form, which is even more impressive.

I disagree and I think my evidence evaluates this fact.

Your evidence is good, no doubt about it. But not enough to put Dante in the same tier as Sora strength-wise, not even close.

I`ve played all those fights and beat all of them, I can see them as equals but Dante has the edge in blunt force durability as well as he has taken attacks from immortals like Mundus,

Sora has done the same from Xemnas, who is MUCH stronger than Mundus IMO. As well as Jafar, Ursula, Hades, etc. All godlike beings.

had swords like Rebellion, Yamato and the Sword of Sparda impaled within him through the chest with no avail.

Sora has done the same when he faced off against Sephiroth, Cloud, Squall, etc. So no big deal there.

Mundus was a dimensional reality warper forget planetary and Xemnas went beyond planetary but their pretty much in the same league

I'd argue Xemnas is superior due to having better feats.

They both created their own pocket dimension, but Xemnas's had more in it. Mundus' was basically nothing but darkness. But really, creating a pocket dimension is nothing special. Even powerhouses like Green Lantern/Surfer/etc. can do that.

They both can fly, shoot beams and stuff, but Xemnas displayed more powers.

Xemnas displayed better combat speed as well.

Plus, Xemnas amped by Kingdom Hearts was stated by the creators to be the most powerful character in the game thus far. That would mean he was more powerful than Hades, Jafar, Ursula, Chernabog, etc.

only Mundus is more dangerous he conquered a multi-dimensional realm called the Underworld,

I disagree.

First off, Xemnas absorbed Kingdom Hearts, which is obviously multi-dimesional since it contained the power of EVERY WORLD THERE IS. Considering how many worlds we've seen in the games, that's saying something.

Second, the "Underworld" is nothing special, and we don't even know if it's multi-dimensional really, that's just speculation. I mean, Sora already beat Hades IN the Underworld, which makes the god even stronger.

was immortal

So was Xemnas after absorbing Kingdom Hearts. And Jafar, he's an immortal Genie. And Hades, he's a GOD.

and can create legit life from nothing.

Creating life from nothing is cool and all, but useless in a fight. Not to mention, even characters like Green Lantern can do that, so it's not all that impressive.

while Sora has been knocked out before or overwhelmed

Um, when was this?

Dante`s healing factor coupled with his durability will make Sora at a strong disadvantage.

Sora's durability coupled with his Curaga will even it out, if not give Sora an edge!

Dante has been pierced within all of his insides by Abigail and he just laughed while breaking free with EASE

And Sora has been cut with Sephiroth's sword, Leon's Gunblade, Cloud's sword, Neptune's trident, Riku's Keyblade, Roxas' keyblades, etc. and just shrugged it off with ease.

I actually proven that he is, Jafar, Ursula and Chernabog are just Mundus only with the Disney presentations.

I'd have to disagree.

Here's what I'm going to do. I'm gonna post this feat of Jafar:

If you can show me ANYTHING that Mundus has done as impressive as playing with planets like they're nothing, then I'll yield that point. And I don't mean pocket dimension creation or making life, because even Green Lantern can do that. And I'm not being dramatic there either, I can actually post scans of that if you wish.

And remember, I want to see an actual FEAT. Not speculation or statements, a feat.

And on top of all that, it was OFFICIALLY stated that Xemnas is even MORE powerful than that.

Mundus is powerful, no doubt about it. But Sora's enemies are just on a whole nother level...

Same with Dante and the things Dante has tanked are much more lethal as shown through the many numerous canon cutscenes that happen throughout the game.

HOW can that possibly be true?

Sora has tanked everything Dante has and more. Swords, bullets, buildings being slung at him, fire, EVERYTHING.

Sora has been tired before also

Please, show me when. Even after he fought Xemnas, he was only mildly fatigued. Likewise Dante was against Mundus. So that's a moot point.

and I don`t see him surviving being impaled while Dante has brushed it off all the time.

Impaled by Sephiroth, Cloud, Leon, and more. And he shrugged them all off.

The only difference is Dante heals after each blow, whereas Sora just shrugs it off like Superman.

I don`t agree, Dante not only has the greater blunt force durability and damage soak but he has tanked things that would actually kill Sora, Sora tanks a lot of magic but Dante tanks that and the nitty-gritty the more humanly grounded stuff. The things you mentioned Dante could probably be tanking since he was 18 during DMC 3.

Again, no way. Sora has gotten smacked around by godlike beings, the only difference is that Dante's skin can be pierced, whereas Sora's cannot. They just bounce off. Sora has tanked FAR more powerful attacks than Dante has, because his enemies are much more powerful than Dante's, as I've explained above.

He`s more durable and he has a healing factor now how can you beat that combo?

Sora is more durable and he has Curaga! THAT'S how you beat that combo my friend!

Dante has dodged lasers

Reacting to and deflecting an OMNIDIRECTIONAL barrage of lasers >>>>>>>>> dodging them. That's just a fact, I don't see how you can argue with that.

and Sora does not even have teleport which is more impressive than having lightspeed

Sora can teleport!

He does it in his fight against Xigbar:

He does it a lot actually, that was just the first fight that came to mind.

another thing is I don`t see why Dante wouldn`t be able to replicate those specific feats either.

Because he hasn't shown capable of it, so assuming he did it would just be speculation.

If we went by that logic, I could just as soon say EVERY character could do it.

Dante hasn't shown capable of anything CLOSE to that, so Sora is DEFINITELY faster.

Now, Dante is still lightspeed. But Sora is MFTL+.

That's going to be a major advantage in this fight.

disagree, Dante is faster in both areas considering he has already done what Sora has done

No, Dante has NEVER done anything as impressive as what Sora did in the final fight against Xemnas. That's a fact.

and he`s been as fast as Sora since his younger years

Prove it...

Plus, Sora IS in his younger years lol. And he's still faster than Dante.

there are many tricks and feats that Sora wouldn`t be able to replicate from even DMC 3

Such as?

while you can`t say the same for Sora.

I assume you mean *Dante my friend?

And I could definitely say the same for Dante.

Dante hasn't proven that he can do everything Sora's done, where I believe Sora DEFINITELY could, as all of his enemies are much more powerful than anything that Dante's gone up against, as I proved above!

I wouldn`t be surprised if Dante ended up disappearing from him without him knowing throughout the fight.

Not going to happen, since Sora is not only faster, but he can teleport as well.

Sora has been tired out and he`s even been overwhelmed as implied through dialogue,

I'd like to see an instance where he's been legitimately tired out or overwhelmed. Because I can't recall ANY circumstances where that was the case.

Not true, Dante has fought the Savior a much more powerful enemy without tiring out and he has fought many demons without tiring out either that also doesn`t mean Sora would be able to tire him out.

Facing 1,000 opponents singlehandedly is a much more impressive endurance feat than facing a big Demon Statue, as impressive as the Savior is.

If you look at the history of individuals it took to tire out Dante then you wouldn`t think Sora fit the bill even though Dante would be impressed with him it took characters like Vergil before Dante awakened his demonic blood, Nero and Mundus

Sora is more powerful than any of the characters you named, so I don't see how that matters!

but even then Dante is holding back also panting isn`t exactly parallel to awakening or not being able to sustain one`s stamina.

And the most Sora has done is pant, and it was only minor. So again, it's a moot point there.

I don`t see happening also when Sora is going to be fighting Vergil who will blitz him with teleportation and Vergil`s teleportation is far greater than Maleficent, Jafar, Xemnas and many others who simply just slowly vanish and reappear.

Xemnas didn't just "slowly vanish," he disappeared same as Vergil.

Not that it matters, as Sora has already shown that he can teleport as well, I displayed that above.

Also I don`t see Sora surviving a couple of Judgment Cuts which Vergil can cause to number in the twenties all circling around,

Sora has tanked FAR worse, but again I've explained that above already.

Not to mention, Vergil won't be hitting Sora.

Vergil is BARELY FTL, so he won't be hitting a MFTL Sora. The only reason Vergil even qualifies as FTL is because he can keep up with Dante. (A weaker Dante, but Dante nonetheless)

Sora neither has the durability to face that

Wrong!

nor healing factor

Curaga! Not that he needs it, his durability is enough.

even if you believe his durability is defined enough his healing factor wouldn`t be since Yamato also can cut through healing factors and durability.

Sora doesn't really have a healing factor. He just shrugs off most of the attacks, because they bounce right off of him!

I disagree, Yamato can cut through more things than the Keyblade has shown to do

How do you figure?

The Keyblade has cut through Sora, Roxas, Riku, Every Organization 13 member, Xemnas, Jafar, Ursula, Hades, Chernabog, Clayton, Lingering Will, Barbosa, Groundshaker, Captain Hook, Maleficent, Oogie, and many, MANY more.

and has Yamato is more magically imbued blade,

How so?

and also Yamato has sealed, universes, dimensions and planes.

Yamato has only sealed a dimension/plane, and it did it ONCE.

Sora's Keyblade on the other hand has sealed/unsealed COUNTLESS worlds/dimensions/planes, and he does it CASUALLY.

I also don`t see how that is more versatile since its even unlocked the power of different individuals so its range is better.

As does the Keyblade. It unlocks the Light/Darkness into your heart, which either strengthens you or weakens you depending on if you're a good character or an evil character. (Light would strengthen a good character but Dark would weaken them, and vice versa for an evil character). This is demonstrated by Sora, Maleficent, etc.

I can understand where you are coming from but Rebellion was made by Sparda the same wielder and master of Yamato also it was more than just a battle of blades it was a battle of blood as well as both blades wield demonic blood.

Demonic blood means little to a weapon capable of harming Hades, GOD of the Underworld, in his own realm. And also Jafar, Ursula, etc.

That is far from true, Rebellion is easily as powerful as the Keyblade alone and you haven`t prove why that would be so.

Indeed I have!

and he also sealed the world TWICE as confirmed in DMC 3 and DMC 4

When was the second time? Can I get evidence on this?

he used Yamato as well as his own sword more casual than Sora which only blocks out the Heartless on a planetary scale

Planetary? No no. He sealed the Door to Darkness, which is UNIVERSAL because it was able to seal the path to EVERY World/dimension.

and Sparda has used more than one weapon to seal things including guns

When did Sparda do this?!?! I don't remember that?!?!

the only thing the Keyblade has over Yamato is the ability to open hearts.

Plus being more powerful, more versatile, and being able to do anything that Yamato can do. Whereas Yamato only seals/opens dimensions, the Keyblade does much more. It can transform, take on various keychains adding to it's versatility, can be duel-wielded, can turn into a glider, can unlock AND lock hearts as well as entire WORLDS and DIMENSIONS, is unbreakable, etc. There's no advantage that Yamato has over the Keyblade, none at all.

Sparda has also yet again sealed another remnant or thing into place such as the Seven Sins within the manga who had godlike power they were planetary level

Can you prove they were planetary level? Again, talking about actual, legitimate feats, not just statements or hyperbole.

Sora does not have a single feat to match that

Very wrong, I've provided plenty of evidence proving the contrary.

and Sparda`s experience is unparalleled if we are to talk about sealing, he also sealed the Despair demon in DMC 2 although it did take assistance.

Sora has sealed worlds, hearts, dimensions, doors, etc. and has unlocked the same. Sparda has no edge here.

So does Sparda and he has done so with many weapons.

Yeah, I'd still like to see that!

And even if it's true, that doesn't give Sparda an edge because Sora uses it in combat, unlike Sparda. In an actual fight, Sora's lock/unlock abilities are useful, unlike Sparda's.

By my evidence that is simply untrue.

By my evidence it is not.

I don`t agree, I think Dante is just too powerful

Certainly not too powerful for Sora.

and experienced

Feats > Experience, and Sora has the far superior feats as I've proven above.

even without DT

DT has nothing on Drive Forms!

also his healing factor is already an enormous advantage

Agreed. But nothing Sora can't counter with his durability.

Also Sora has to fight Vergil too which he won`t be able to both of his opponents can teleport and Vergil going all-out means it will not end well for the Keyblade Master.

Sora can handle Vergil with ease, as he is his superior in every way.

If the battle is Sora vs Vergil and Cloud vs. Dante, then it would be much tougher for Sora. But I think Sora can take out Vergil as quickly as Dante can take out Cloud, given his MASSIVE speed advantage, not to mention all the other advantages.

And once he does that, Sora vs. Dante would be an epic fight, but one that Sora would certainly win.

Now, if the battle is Sora vs. Dante and Cloud vs. Vergil, then Sora definitely would win, because he could beat Dante faster than Vergil can beat Cloud. And then once Sora finishes with Dante, beating Vergil will be simple.

Although, if I happen to be wrong, and either one finishes Cloud before Sora gets finished fighting, then THAT could cause serious issues. Two against one would be a serious problem, even for Sora.

If that was the case, then I'm not sure who I would say wins here.

No problem :) I really like your arguments for Sora and you have been doing a marvelous job in this entire debate, I commend you!!

Likewise my friend! A truly fantastic debate! xD

Jmarshmallow

@neongamewave let me know when you're done!

Jmarshmallow

Leaning towards Dante and Vergil. I think Vergil has the upper hand on Cloud so he should be able to assist Dante. I think Dante > Sora by a minor amount but he can definitely take him with Vergil's help. Good fight, would be fair to give Cloud some Materia imo and I think the Fusion Sword would be better for him in this fight.

@cerberus369616: Sora is Dante's superior in most aspects.

Speed, strength, durability (arguable because of Dante's healing factor though).

And they are equal in most other categories like skill and versatility.

However, in this battle without Magic, DT, or Drive forms, Sora's speed will be the deciding factor and allow him to beat Dante soundly.

Jmarshmallow

Going with team Devil for a very solid majority, 9/10.

*hint hint* Cloud's the weak link.

@jmarshmallow: I can see how you would think that but not really when you analyze Sora's best feats.

Speed - Sora's best speed feat is the one you claim makes him MFTL, but that is off the notion that he is dodging/deflecting lasers. He isn't. He is dodging/deflecting a multitude of Xemnas' weapons ,the Ethreal Blades, being directed telekinetically. The Ethreal Blades themselves are described as being made of "Solidified Nothingness" (as noted in Kingdom Hearts: 358/2) which makes no sense from a physics persepective but has to do with the narrative of the story. As such we can't really ascertain the speed of Xemnas's attack.It is still very impressive considering even if they are at a minimum bullet speed that him an Riku guarded against an pretty much omnidirectional attack. The rest of his feats put him hypersonic being a lightning timer and all but nothing to suggest he is faster than Dante even if Dante has no access to his DT.

Strength - They both have Building Cutting feats (Dante's fight with the Nefasturris and you already referenced the Sora applicable feat) and Dante has the Savoir Feat so their destructive capabilities are similar at worst.

Durability - Sora's doesn't have any particular cut scene feats for dealing with Slashing or piercing weapons, none that directly make him better than Dante and as you said Dante has an insane nigh instant regen.

So I disagree, I think Dante and Sora are very close in ability and Speed will not be the deciding factor, but instead Durability will. I think we can both agree Vergil > Cloud due to again durability and for them Speed thanks to Dark Slayer having teleportation. Cloud is the weak link. Sora can't put down Vergil or Dante before Vergil or Dante can put Cloud down. I love Cloud but with out soem materia to buff himself he is alittle out of his league, not by a huge margin, but enough to make the difference. Cloud has to be able survive long enough for Sora to put one of the Demon bros down and I personally doubt Sora can put Dante down to begin with.

Still a good fight.

@cerberus369616:

I can see how you would think that but not really when you analyze Sora's best feats.

As the biggest Sora enthusiast on this site, trust me when I say, I have analyzed Sora's best feats. And I mean no disrespect when I say this, but your analysis is incorrect in several parts.

Speed - Sora's best speed feat is the one you claim makes him MFTL, but that is off the notion that he is dodging/deflecting lasers. He isn't.

Yes, he is. Which I will explain in a moment.

He is dodging/deflecting a multitude of Xemnas' weapons ,the Ethreal Blades, being directed telekinetically. The Ethreal Blades themselves are described as being made of "Solidified Nothingness" (as noted in Kingdom Hearts: 358/2) which makes no sense from a physics persepective but has to do with the narrative of the story.

You're partially correct, but not fully.

While you are correct about them being described as being made of solidified Nothingness, the fact of the matter is that they are still lasers, and thus move at lightspeed.

Here, allow me to show you:

Notice in the Information text box in the left hand corner, it specifically says "Use Reflect to deflect laser attacks!"

See, they are specifically referred to as lasers. Thus, making them lightspeed, and making Sora Dante's extreme superior in speed.

As such we can't really ascertain the speed of Xemnas's attack.It is still very impressive considering even if they are at a minimum bullet speed that him an Riku guarded against an pretty much omnidirectional attack.

False, because as I demonstrated above they are "laser attacks," and as such they are lightspeed.

The rest of his feats put him hypersonic being a lightning timer and all but nothing to suggest he is faster than Dante even if Dante has no access to his DT.

The feat above puts him as MASSIVELY faster than light, which is far move than Dante has ever demonstrated, DT or not.

Strength - They both have Building Cutting feats (Dante's fight with the Nefasturris and you already referenced the Sora applicable feat)

"Building Cutting feats"? I don't mean to be rude here, but seriously?

You can hardly call easily cutting six skyscrapers in one swipe comparable to defeating a demon made out of a VERY small portion of a building. And when I mean a small portion, I'm not underrating the feat. Dante doesn't even cut the demon in half or anything, he just defeats in and it splits into a smaller size.

That's not at all the same as casually cutting skyscrapers like butter.

Let's not be ridiculous here.

and Dante has the Savoir Feat so their destructive capabilities are similar at worst.

The Savior Feat is completely unquantifiable, as we have no idea how much he weighed.

It is one of Dante's few strength feats, and it's really no more impressive than what Sora does here:

Sora (in his weaker lion form no less) stops the Groundshaker from crushing him, despite the fact that the Groundshaker dwarfs all mountain formations nearby sans Pride Rock.

Not that it really matters, as striking feats are much more important in a battle, and Dante has NO striking feats on par with many of Sora's feats, especially the skyscraper one.

Durability - Sora's doesn't have any particular cut scene feats for dealing with Slashing or piercing weapons,

He fought Sephiroth, Cloud, Leon, Captain Hook, Captain Barbosa, etc., all of which have swords and deal slashing/piercing damage, and yet Sora handles it just fine.

Not that it will matter, as Sora can block every attack Dante/Vergil dishes because he is their complete superior with speed.

none that directly make him better than Dante and as you said Dante has an insane nigh instant regen.

Tanking hits from Xemnas, Jafar, Ursula, Hades, etc. all prove that he can tank whatever Dante can dish.

So I disagree, I think Dante and Sora are very close in ability and Speed will not be the deciding factor,

They're not close though mate, so it WILL be the deciding factor.

but instead Durability will.

And Sora's durability is on par, if not superior to Dante, because he has tanked threats far more powerful than Mundus, Despair Embodied, etc.

I think we can both agree Vergil > Cloud due to again durability and for them Speed thanks to Dark Slayer having teleportation. Cloud is the weak link.

I agree here, Cloud is definitely the weak link.

Sora can't put down Vergil or Dante before Vergil or Dante can put Cloud down.

I disagree here. He can EASILY take Vergil out, and take Dante out with a bit of difficulty.

I love Cloud but with out soem materia to buff himself he is alittle out of his league, not by a huge margin, but enough to make the difference. Cloud has to be able survive long enough for Sora to put one of the Demon bros down and I personally doubt Sora can put Dante down to begin with.

Sora can definitely put Dante down, because he is still stronger, as durable if not more so, and MUCH faster.

That speed will allow him to deal with both Vergil and Dante, while Cloud helps out as support.

Still a good fight.

Agreed!

Jmarshmallow

The sons of Sparda take this in a good fight.

1. 358/2 was made after KHII which means it supercedes it as far as canon is concerned. At the time SE just hadn't decided the specifics of Xemnas' weapon so they called it what it looked like which is Lasers, no different than thinking a Lightsaber is a laser before it's later established what it is, you'd only be wrong if you keep calling it light. Either it is Nothingness ,which it is stated to be so I'm going on that side, or it is Lasers since it can't be both. I don't doubt Sora being FTL since he has other feats but he only has ONE feat making him demonstrably faster than Dante

2.He has fought those people but we never see him taking hits from those people in a cut scene. We may see it in game play but personally I don't take Gameplay durability feats into account because the game has to be balanced as such hits that would hurt and blah blah blah I know your not dumb so you know where I am coming from. I think Sora deals with slashing just fine because he is good enough to block and dodge from a Canon standpoint, he is a master swordsman and most master swordsmen worth their salt and that don't have healing factors block and dodge. So again while I don't think his durability is such that Dante is just gonna oneshot him but I think the healing Factor will mean as time goes on the wounds Dante inflicts will matter more than the wounds Sora inflicts. Granted this is based on Sora's lack of cutscene feats for Durability, so if you disagree with my interpretation of Durability feats because you think Gameplay durability is a valid source of feats then we won't really be able to agree on that. We can discuss but I don't see either of us budging much. (as a side note, @neongamewave is already made arguments for Despair Embodied, Mundus and the like so I won't retread that. But for me Dante's one of Dante's best tanking feats has been him no selling Nero beating on him. Nero (especially the Devil Bringer) is no where near featless and is pretty monstrous but Dante is hardly worse for the wear. The Devil Bringer has smashed things even some one like Dante can't break or at least easily break so it speaks for itself that Dante's Durability>Dante's Striking Power.)

3. Sora breaks Skyscrapers yes, but he breaks normal skyscrapers. Dante on the other hand broke a Demonically possesed Sky Scraper. All of the possesed objects in DMC2 were DRASTICALLY more durable than their normal counterparts.

Vergil is certainly weaker than Sora I agree, but he isn't gonna one shot Vergil if for no other reason than Vergil's healing factor. CLoud on the other hand is gonna get one shot by Dante. I don't think Sora can take both of them on. If it takes a bit of difficulty on Sora's part to take out Dante then a blind side judgment cut is gonna take his head off.

Either set up Sora is either gonna end up fighting them both alone or fighting to keep Cloud alive and not being able to perform to the best of his abilities. Eitherway it isn't looking good for him.

@cerberus369616:

1. 358/2 was made after KHII which means it supercedes it as far as canon is concerned.

That's not how that works. Being made after doesn't make a difference, it's the chronological order that matters.

For example, Dante has demonstrated gear and abilities in later games like DMC3, that he didn't display in DMC 1 or 2. Does that make that other gear non-canon, since DMC3 was made after DMC1?

No. No it doesn't.

Not that it matters, as it's not contradictory, as I'll explain below.

At the time SE just hadn't decided the specifics of Xemnas' weapon so they called it what it looked like which is Lasers, no different than thinking a Lightsaber is a laser before it's later established what it is, you'd only be wrong if you keep calling it light. Either it is Nothingness ,which it is stated to be so I'm going on that side, or it is Lasers since it can't be both.

Why not? Why can't it be Nothingness and be lasers? We don't know how fast nothingness would move, it's a made up concept solely created for the purposes of the Kingdom Hearts series.

So with that being the case, the Ethereal Blades are still nothingness, but the developers likened them to lasers because they function the same way, and thus, travel at lightspeed.

I don't doubt Sora being FTL since he has other feats but he only has ONE feat making him demonstrably faster than Dante

Yes. He has one feat that make him demonstrably faster than Dante, and that one feat is all he needs.

The fact of the matter is, it's a canon part of Kingdom Hearts, and even if you were of the opinion that gameplay doesn't count as canon, it would still count as that qualifies as a cutscene.

So you can't just denounce it and pretend it didn't happen, or try to lowball it so that Dante isn't horribly outclassed.

The fact of the matter is, Sora deflected an omnidirectional barrage of lasers, as specifally noted by the game. So, because of this, Sora is much faster than Dante based off feats.

2.He has fought those people but we never see him taking hits from those people in a cut scene. We may see it in game play but personally I don't take Gameplay durability feats into account because the game has to be balanced as such hits that would hurt and blah blah blah I know your not dumb so you know where I am coming from.

Okay. Well if this is your opinion, then allow me to respond in turn by dealing with a point you make further in your post:

3. Sora breaks Skyscrapers yes, but he breaks normal skyscrapers. Dante on the other hand broke a Demonically possesed Sky Scraper. All of the possesed objects in DMC2 were DRASTICALLY more durable than their normal counterparts.

Based off of your logic above, Dante never actually showed in a cutscene that he broke Nefasturris. He only showed beating it, we have no idea how. For all we know, he could have just done it with his guns, which shows absolutely NO strength on his part.

Now, using logic, we can assume that he broke it using his weapons, specifically his sword.

However, we can't prove that, because it's "just gameplay" according to your logic.

Likewise, we can assume that Sora got struck at least a few times by Sephiroth. But we can't prove it one way or the other, because it was in gameplay.

You can't hold a double standard for Sora than you do with Dante.

Either gameplay feats can be taken into account, or they can't.

What's your decision?

I think Sora deals with slashing just fine because he is good enough to block and dodge from a Canon standpoint, he is a master swordsman and most master swordsmen worth their salt and that don't have healing factors block and dodge. So again while I don't think his durability is such that Dante is just gonna oneshot him but I think the healing Factor will mean as time goes on the wounds Dante inflicts will matter more than the wounds Sora inflicts. Granted this is based on Sora's lack of cutscene feats for Durability, so if you disagree with my interpretation of Durability feats because you think Gameplay durability is a valid source of feats then we won't really be able to agree on that. We can discuss but I don't see either of us budging much. (as a side note, @neongamewave is already made arguments for Despair Embodied, Mundus and the like so I won't retread that. But for me Dante's one of Dante's best tanking feats has been him no selling Nero beating on him. Nero (especially the Devil Bringer) is no where near featless and is pretty monstrous but Dante is hardly worse for the wear. The Devil Bringer has smashed things even some one like Dante can't break or at least easily break so it speaks for itself that Dante's Durability>Dante's Striking Power.)

I can't counter any of this until you answer my question above.

Vergil is certainly weaker than Sora I agree, but he isn't gonna one shot Vergil if for no other reason than Vergil's healing factor.

No, but he could do an INSANE amount of damage before Vergil could even move, due to Sora's far superior speed, as I've already explained in full.

CLoud on the other hand is gonna get one shot by Dante.

I don't know about one-shot, Cloud has taken damage from Sephiroth and done just fine.

Granted, Dante > Sephiroth, but it still shows that Cloud can tank a fair amount of damage.

I don't think Sora can take both of them on.

I'm not sure, but I think I'd be inclined to agree with you.

That's why I said speed is such a vital factor here, and one that I think will give Sora and Cloud the win.

Remember, it doesn't necessarily have to be Sora vs. Vergil and Cloud vs Dante. They could possibly fight together, with Sora speedblitzing the Sons of Sparda and Cloud providing support as needed. This is especially likely since Sora is used to fighting with other people.

If it takes a bit of difficulty on Sora's part to take out Dante then a blind side judgment cut is gonna take his head off.

Not really, considering all of the damage he's soaked in the past.

Either set up Sora is either gonna end up fighting them both alone or fighting to keep Cloud alive and not being able to perform to the best of his abilities.

Those aren't the only options.

Sora could defeat Dante, while Cloud stalls Vergil.

Or the option I stated above is also a likely possibility. There are options here.

Eitherway it isn't looking good for him.

I would disagree, of course.

Jmarshmallow

Just leaving these

@kuja9001: Exactly lol.

Jmarshmallow

Team 1 45%-team 2 55%. Only because dante and vergil should imo be more durable than team 1. Skill, speed and strength wise i think they are pretty equal. Only problem is the sons of sparda have withstood alot more punishment i.e. getting stabbed, sliced, crushed etc and came out alive. Not saying team 1 isnt durable. Just feel that team 2 has the slight edge in this regard.

I`m finished, prepare yourself, I have only begun :)

It is. If their are two pieces of Media from the same canon and they have two pices of Data that are supposed to be true but they can't both be true then the one that was made later is assumed to be true until the writer/creator/entity in charge of Canon says otherwise. The creator , who we assume isn't wrong about his own work, made a conscious decision to change something so we take that change as truth. This is one such case.

Except that in this case, both can be correct.

Because the two are defined separately in both the real world and specifically in the KH world as being different entities. So they can't be the same thing. Laser means "light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation". So a Laser, by definition, is light. It is light speed because again, it is light . It isn't some other entity that moves at the speed of light but isn't light. Meaning for Nothingness to be a laser also, it would have to mean Nothingness is Light, which is absurd. The game even goes out of it's way to establish that the nothing is part of the same order as Light and Dark but separate. Now if the developers are insinuating the Ethreal Blades are Laser Like as you put it, that still means nothing for their speed. I could liken me shooting a rubber band to me shooting a bullet. Both move in a generally straghit line, hit things from a distance, travel relatively fast, can hurt and cause damage, the list goes on. Being like something does to define it's properties enough to quantify it exactly though. They could have meant the blades sound like lasers, move like lasers, burn like lasers, glow like lasers, LOOK like lasers. But unless they say the Ethreal Blades are light speed we don't have enough to assume they are like Lasers in all aspects uniformly especially since we know from a later game that the Ethreal Blades are not made of light immediately throwing them out from being exactly like Lasers.

We don't know how fast Solidified Nothingness moves.

The fact that the developers specifically called it lasers means that they were informing us that they were moving at lightspeed.

The problem with your argument is that your taking whatever information suits your argument, but are ignoring the rest.

The fact of the matter is, we have NO IDEA how fast Solidified Nothingness moves. So, it could very well move at lightspeed.

While in a usual circumstance we would have to just speculate how fast they moved, we don't have to in this case, because the developers specifically called them lasers, thus referencing that the aspects and capabilities of the Ehthereal Blades are akin to lasers. This would include speed, thus making them lightspeed.

While my argument is backed by direct statements from the developers, yours is backed by nothing except your own personal beliefs about how fast Nothingness should move.

So, they're lightspeed, and Sora is faster than Dante/Vergil.

One feat that I feel is sufficiently debunked.

Not at all mate!

I don't think that the attack isn't canon, just the aspects and natures of it that can be inferred from KHII. I agree it is a cut scene feat. I'm not pretending it didn't happen or trying to lowball it. I just don't think it was light speed because it isn't a laser, at best it is "Laser Like" which doesn't make it light speed. The fact of the matter is, Sora deflected an omnidirectional barrage of Nothingness shaped like laser blades, as specifically noted in by a game that comes after KHII and is therefore the more recent creative descion from the developers.

The fact that they're "laser attacks" means they have the property of lasers, and thus are lightspeed.

The developers wouldn't have likened them to laser attacks had they not mean for them to have the properties of such.

I stand by the concept that Durability feats specifically during Gameplay (QTE's withstanding) is wildly inconsistent and thus shouldn't be used. Things like Sora's ability to use Magic, Forms and things of similar nature that are consistent are fine. But Durability ( and i guess by extension Striking) are too hard to quantify. Are we supposed to believe that fodder enemies can womp Sora (as Gameplay would suggest) while he is eating blows from Sephiroth? What difficulty setting are supposed to use for Durability feats? Did Sora ever actually get hit in the first place or was it just the Player not being good enough to avoid the damage?

Well, frankly I disagree. But I suppose for the purpose of arguing with you, I'll adhere to your particular logic.

Even assuming that somehow NO boss EVER hit Sora in the game, that would only further attest to the fact that Sora is MUCH faster than Dante. Because Xemnas is faster than Sora and Riku combined since he was able to block/dodge/etc. attacks from both at the same time. Yet, according to your logic, Xemnas was never able to actually hit Sora with his Ethereal Blade swords that he duel-wields.

So, if that's the case and Xemnas never hit Sora, and NO other boss ever actually hit Sora, then that just proves that Dante will be unable to as well.

That being said your right about the building. I recalled Dante fighting the Nfasturris in a cutscene but I was mistake, DMC1 and 2 have a lack of cutscenes compared to DMC3 and 4 and I forgot that so my bad, it definitely made me come off as a hypocrite trying to win an argument so I apologize.

It's no problem at all, we all make mistakes!

As such, I can concede Sora has better striking than Dante with Rebellion but on the same note Sora has a serious lack of Durability so I guess it balances out if they can both put each other down because one hits hard and can't take hits and the other doesn't hit super hard but can heal from damage and take hits.

Again, I still think you're logic is a little off, but let's go with it.

First off, this is a canon cutscene/QTE thing in the final battle of KH2.

And considering that Xemnas is at LEAST a planetary threat (arguably galaxy+) after absorbing Kingdom Hearts, that shows that Sora can tank at LEAST planetary+ attacks. Granted, it's not a stabbing/slashing damage, but the point I'm proving is that his durability is nothing to sneeze at.

Second, Sora's durability won't matter anyway, because Dante isn't going to hit Sora because of his FAR superior speed, as we established above. Sora will just blitz Dante with his far superior speed, and take him out with his far superior striking strength.

I think Sora deals with slashing just fine because he is good enough to block and dodge from a Canon standpoint, he is a master swordsman and most master swordsmen worth their salt and that don't have healing factors block and dodge. So again while I don't think his durability is such that Dante is just gonna oneshot him but I think the healing Factor will mean as time goes on the wounds Dante inflicts will matter more than the wounds Sora inflicts. Granted this is based on Sora's lack of cutscene feats for Durability, so if you disagree with my interpretation of Durability feats because you think Gameplay durability is a valid source of feats then we won't really be able to agree on that. We can discuss but I don't see either of us budging much. (as a side note, @neongamewave is already made arguments for Despair Embodied, Mundus and the like so I won't retread that. But for me Dante's one of Dante's best tanking feats has been him no selling Nero beating on him. Nero (especially the Devil Bringer) is no where near featless and is pretty monstrous but Dante is hardly worse for the wear. The Devil Bringer has smashed things even some one like Dante can't break or at least easily break so it speaks for itself that Dante's Durability>Dante's Striking Power.)

Have at it now, I'm sure you have something in mind :D

Of course I do! xD

Going by your logic above, no boss ever landed a hit on Sora.

Not Jafar, Ursula, Chernabog, Hook, Uugie, Hades, Clayton, none of em.

So, considering Jafar, for example, is a galaxy+ level threat, that just shows how powerful Sora really is.

The fact that Sora was somehow able to take Jafar down, the same guy who was doing this:

without getting hit even ONCE, attests to how powerful Sora is.

None of the enemies Dante has faced are as powerful as what I just showed you, and he isn't even the strongest boss in Kingdom Hearts.

So there's no proof that Dante is even CLOSE to the level Sora is at, because the enemies Dante fights just aren't on the same level as Sora's enemies.

Again I don't think Sora is massively faster than Vergil and certainly not Dante, especially since Vergil is arguably faster in movement speed than Dante thanks to his teleportation.

Again, Sora is still faster, and he ALSO has teleportation, thus making him even FASTER.

Cloud doesn't have many feats of tanking Slashing Damage and being Okay. What Sephiroth stabbed him like 9 times but didn't hit anything Vital, mostly his Limbs and one that probably punctured a Lung? If Dante stabs cloud the wound is gonna be like 5 times as big and Dante. Cloud Was able to keep up with Sephiroth and that is why he didn't get one shot, not because of his great durability.

And since Dante in character never goes all out from the getgo, this won't be a problem, because Cloud can easily toy with Dante and stall until Sora is finished WRECKING Vergil

Cloud can tank blunt trauma just fine but his organs still seem to not work great if they get punctured. He didn't look to be in fighting condition after Sephiroth really fuckied him up. He pulled out on desperation move that probably won't even take Dante or Vergil out so...maybe he get's two shot instead of one shot.

That's if it goes 1v1, instead of 2v2.

It will likely go 2v2 because Sora is used to fighting together, not separately.

I don't think he clan blitz both of them at once. Even if he was as fast as you claim if he blitzes Vergil, Dante has an open line to blitz Cloud and vice versa.

Dante won't blitz because he never does in character.

However, by your logic Sora DOES blitz in character, because if he didn't then he would have gotten hit by a boss, which he apparently did not.

The only way it would work is if Dante and Vergil specifically ignore Cloud and focus on Sora.

Sora gets their attention by blitzing one after the other in rapid succession, and Cloud helps in whatever way he can.

The speed difference would have to be like Flash vs Ultimate Quicksilver for him to blitz both of the simultaneously.

Which it is, based off feats.

Except...he hasn't soaked a lot of damage in the past.

And I've adjusted my argument to account for such, because I'm a just that nice of a guy!

There are infinite options, but I'm talking about what is most likely. Cloud is out of his league here speed wise. Sora might defeat Dante, but he has to do it faster than Vergil beats Cloud which is unlikely considering the speed difference and Vergil's Teleportation. Or Sora would have to beat Vergil in the time it takes Dante to stomp on Cloud. And the problem here is Dante and Vergil have healing factors and Sora and Cloud do not. Unless Sora is just inordinately better than Dante and Vergil, which he isn't he can't manage both of them at the same time for Cloud. Cloud has to be able to protect himself from getting blitzed. At some point one of the Demon Bros is gonna come for him and then he will be fucked.

I've already detailed above how that would work, but I'd be happy to summarize one more time!

Sora blitzes both, takes them both out with his FAR superior striking strength, and Cloud serves as a distraction/helps in whatever way he can.

Since neither Vergil nor Dante can even touch him, since he's faster enough to blitz basically every boss he's ever fought, it should be an easy win for Sora

Jmarshmallow

1. It seems to me we are saying the same thing. We don't know how fast Nothingness is, we can agree to that. For all I know it could be 10000 times faster than light, it could move 10000 times slower. We don't know. You think the Developers called them Lasers to imply they were Laser like. I think the Developers called them lasers but later decided that Solidified Nothingness fit a being like Xemnas more than using Light as an attack so they changed their minds as to what it was. Both are plausible, but neither sets it to being light speed. I'm not ignoring facts to suit my argument, I'm just not speculating. By definition they aren't Lasers so we can't decide that it has every single aspect of a Laser because that would include them being made of the same thing a laser is made of, Light, which again by definition they are not. You are therefore making an assumption that it has the aspects that suits your argument. You could be right, but there is no way to PROVE that either of us is right so it isn't a usable feat. There are two many unknown variables since as you yourself said, we don't know the speed of nothingness. The developers may have likened them to lasers but we don't know why, they could have just called them that off the top of their head. Maybe they were trying to say the attack was lightspeed but neither of us know that we can only speculate since it wasn't mentioned.

2. Just because Xemnas didn't strike Sora doesn't mean Dante won't. All it means is that Sora IS

-A. IS at the least as good as Xemnas in terms of skill , probably better since Xemnas has arguably better stats.

-B. Sora had help so another person was helping to cover him so his showing against Xemnas is hard to quantify. I have no doubt he did most of the work, but he didn't do all of it.

To establish that Sora won't get hit By Dante or Vergil you have to establish that he is significantly more skilled which isn't true and/or that he is significantly faster, which I maintain he isn't. If Xemnas can Tag him while he has help (which your video shows him doing) . Will Sora be hard to tag? Hell yea. Impossible? No. And once he get's tagged by an attack he won't be able to recover from it without magic. Dante will Recover when he get's tagged.

3.You keep referring to Hook, Ursala, Chrnabog, uugie, Hades, Clayton and the like like they have feats to make them better than DMC Bosses when really...they don't. The only one you have posted a single feat for is Jafar and your using a video from the Aladdin Movie, not from the Game so it hardly counts as a feat. Are some of them more powerful than DMC bosses? Sure. Most of them aren't even in that League though. And none of them are on the Universal scale of a being like Mundus who creates entire dimensions. Only Xemnas is comparable and I would personally put them at about the same, Xemnas and Mundus. Except Sora needs help to fight Xemnas and win and Dante doesn't need help to fight Mundus.

4. You are misconstruing what I say. Just because Sora is good enough to avoid getting hit doesn't mean he is blitzing all of his enemies, your jumping to conclusions. Sora uses skill to dodge and block attacks you see him do it in the vast majority of his cut scenes, it has nothing to do with Blitzing.

5. Dante doesn't blitz off tops in character. i wouldn't say he NEVER blitzes but rarely to start. He takes it easy in fights, until he sees that he can't afford to. The moment he see his brother get his shit kicked in he is Gonna do something. Either stop Sora (which he can because Sora isn't faster than them) or assume these guys are no joke and try to take out Cloud (who won't be able to stop Dante let alone toy with him).

Your entire argument is pretty much predicated on the one feat. And while if you could prove without a doubt that the Ethereal Blades are inherently light speed then I could see your argument being sound, but without it Sora isn't fast enough to do what you claim. He has to be that much faster to blitz and he just isn't. Blocking "Solidified Nothingness" doesn't make you MFTL.

Sora tries to blitz , finds it difficult and that he is up against people that can match him move for move and that his partner who is supposed to cover his back is outclassed. Cloud can't hang in this fight. Everyone here can hang in this fight except for Cloud. Sora has to be pretty much Twice as good as Dante to win this fight. If ti was Sora and Riku, then yea. Or if Cloud had haste then yea.

@cerberus369616

I agree with you and I think what makes your point even stronger is the fact that in both KH 1 as well as KH 2, and even Dream Drop Distance. Xemnas` very own signature sabers are not even called lightsabers they are called ethereal blades furthering the fact that he draws and conjures energy of that type or classification.

It doesn`t matter when I think about it cause I`m pondering the credibility of Sora`s feat even if @jmarshmallow is right which I can understand from his perspective as I have debated for Sora many times and referred to the same feats myself but as I always say, questionability is the key to possibility, probability and then finality. I question the credibility of the feat now. Also Sora has many factors against him that @jmarshmallow may have overlooked.

1. Dante has in-game AND in-custscene feats of achieving as well as surpassing lightspeed within combat reaction. He has deflected/reflected light beams, laser beams and pure light.

He has a lightspeed reaction and combat feat from the following:

Mundus (reflected his light laser beam and he reacted to them AGAIN in the canon novel DMC Volume 2 he fought an alternative dimension Mundus who was just as powerful if not more-so and he stomped him)

Arius (outraced his light attack)

Damned Chessman (who actually fire lasers, it says in-game and their lasers possess the same exact characteristics such as the signature sound which Xemnas could be lacking if we are to get technical)

Beowulf (who fires light-feathers that travel and move in multi-directional fashion, Beowulf is also a complete light-being when possessing the Light-Gauntlets)

2. Dante not only has more feats but the quality is better even if Sora has only ONE FEAT that is made to be the standard, the quality of them being in-cutscene is a stronger case although Sora did so in a QTE, Dante`s consistency is much better and believable.

3. Dante can also Teleport. Sora has shown teleportation but only in-game and not consistently only in commands also its not a standard ability like Glide even if I`m wrong, Dante`s teleportation is still more consistent and thus has a stronger case made for it for not only the quantity of feats but also quality. Teleportation >>>>MFTL (if true), I can`t see how this can be argued and what makes it worse is that Vergil also has this, Cloud will die instantly and Vergil can definitely match Sora since he`s consistently used it with his Dark Slayer style in combat against Dante in all of their fights. Also its further confirmed by the official manuals so the credibility is consistent.

4. Even if Jmarshamllow is right, Sora only showcased not only one feat in one moment of a command but the biggest detractor here is the simple fact that of how he did it. The way in which he was moving is suspicious because he only reacted in a stationary format he hasn`t showcased the fluent, fluid and flow heavy coordination of how Dante moves his muscles. Dante has the better muscle memory which deals with reaction and body movement, he moves his limbs in a quicker fashion and he can also DISAPPEAR literally... Sora has nothing on that, MTFL or not and Sora`s enemies have never shown something like that when it just comes to pure speed mechanics... Its more of reflex than anything and I don`t see how that helps when your opponent can move purely fast in speed his movement speed is as good as his combat and reflex speed also Dante has the better perception speed, his eye coordination is much greater and he even sees things as if they are slowing down another thing is Dante has faced enemies who can control time the best and prime example being Geryon a 2000 year old demon who manipulates time and perception, Dante could still move as well as best this demon even when under its effects. Dante in counting even has more lightning reactionary feats than Sora does but I don`t think its necessary to go into that territory too much.

Also as a side-note: I would like to say Jafar, Oogie Boogie, Ursula and etcetera showed incompetence with their abilities. Jafar especially he was acting all-that and he was underestimating Sora he never indicated that he went full on out this is compatibly consistent with his movie characteristics as well. Also all Sora did was use his weak points against him which is extremely easy to do considering he had the magic carpet to help him navigate. Dante`s fight with Mundus was much more hardcore and diverse, Mundus showed more and he was much more impressive on a COMBAT LEVEL another thing is Sora can`t use magic it says in the OP so he can`t heal himself which will be a MASSIVE negative and it also says Dante will not be holding back. Most of Dante`s feats are accomplished when he`s playing around which is evident especially in DMC 1, 4 and the Animation. A no-holding back Dante has the potential to wreck when I think about it closely and intricately. Those rules in my opinion are being overlooked, and are not being valued or considered as important factors in this fight.

@neongamewave

Most definitely :) I kind of had to rush yesterday cause I was occupied but now I have all the time available so my points will be more punctually perfected and potently powerful!

I would expect nothing less!

While that is true it doesn`t change the matter of the fact of what I have stated, Dante is more experienced and he has had a greater length of time to improvise as well as improve on his skill. Sora defeating the Lingering Will is an undeniable feat, however Dante has faced much more experienced warriors over time and has accumulated knowledge at a much more strongly scaled rate. You may not agree but its shown in his history of feats he`s faced more pure-zealous swordsman.

You're right, I don't agree. I think that Cloud, Sephiroth, Captain Hook, Squall are just as experienced as Dante or anyone Dante has defeated, and yet he handled them soundly.

I was only making a point about how awesome Dante does it, I wasn`t actually suggesting that it was apart of the substance of his cemented feats. He just makes it look effortless, seamless and so ridiculous that`s all I`m saying.

Ah, gotcha. Sora's is effortless and seamless as well, let's not forget that.

Well how about something more impressive and noteworthy?

I'd love to see that!

Dante had his energies which includes the reserves of his soul zapped from him by the Nightmare demon in DMC 1. This demon was created by MUNDUS and it was crafted for Dante, and Dante only. Dante defeats it THREE TIMES, the third time Trish is assisting it to take him down and we both know she alone is formidable. This demon was also dimensional not only furthering the fact of how powerful Mundus is but how powerful Dante is.

Let's pause here.

I'm not seeing the big deal about Nightmare. I remember facing him, he was a great boss IIRC...but according to the Lore you have provided me, there is nothing suggesting that he is "dimensional." The closest to that is it says he ruled over a dimension, but that doesn't make him dimensional.

At one point Alexander the Great ruled over the entire world, that doesn't make his power planetary. Ruling =/= being powerful.

It manifested his inner demons, used his Devil energy against him and that includes having a majority of his magic removed as well as his demon forms reduced. Sparda also defeated an entire army of Mundus` demons which ranged in the thousands + and he faced Mundus, also in the process beating him. I know that is not Dante`s feat exactly but it doesn`t mean it can`t be used for a feat that is compatible, comparable and matchable to the math of his feats. Dante by DMC 4 would be as strong if not more powerful than his Sparda DT in DMC 1.

Again, lots of assumtion here my friend. You're assuming that just because Sparda can do it, means that Dante can as well.

Dante has never displayed a feat of such skill and endurance, so we can't say he can because his father did it, despite the fact that Dante should be as powerful as his father by DMC4.

Maybe one day if they ever decide to continue the actual series (not that reboot disappointment) then we'll know for sure, but for now it's just assumption and therefore can't be used.

Based on the fact of his connection with his sword and Dante is a way superior swordsman in comparison to that of Cloud yet Cloud has stood toe to toe with Sephiroth on many occasions despite the acknowledged fact in regards to Sephiroth toying with him. Vergil is more in-tuned with the identity of his sword and he wields it like it is apart of him. The accuracy, precision, foreknowledge and wisdom in which Vergil wields his sword is just much greater.

Yeah um...I gotta be honest, ya kinda lost me here!

Like, saying that he has a better "connection with his sword" seems a bit ridiculous to me! Sephiroth has shown on several occasions that he can wield his sword with impeccable accuracy.

And saying that Vergil is better than Seph because Dante is superior to Cloud is a poor argument, because as you yourself acknowledged Sephiroth toys with him more often than not.

Seph himself could arguably beat Vergil. He'd get beat by Dante soundly, but Vergil? There's a very high likelihood from the research I've done on the character.

And the fact that Cloud has even been able to stand toe to toe with him (admittedly because Sephiroth doesn't go all out) shows that Cloud could go toe-to-toe with him suggests that he could at least hang with Dante for a time, and stall with Vergil.

Baul is 2000 years old

Age means nothing!

and rose to the ranks in the Underworld`s army if he was of no use Sparda would HAVE NEVER of entrusted him with anything.

Rank means nothing!

A demon who saw him in action and was associated with him even confirmed that he kills thousands of demons in a split second which when fighting Dante he has shown split second speed he just wasn`t up to par.

That's just a demon bragging/lying. They're demons, they do that.

Had he actually killed thousands of demons in a split second, he could have blitz Dante with ease. That would make him MFTL, and Dante wouldn't have been able to compete.

Either that, or those demons he killed weren't strong in the slightest, thus making the feat less reliable.

Sparda was also the greatest living swordsman in all of the demon world which houses millions of demons and has many planes, Mundus had Sparda as his general in his army so....

We're not talking about Sparda though mate, we're talking about Baul and Modeus!

Just because Sparda was their mentor doesn't mean that they're as powerful as him, not even close.

Batman has mentored tons of heroes over the years, but that doesn't mean they're equal to him in skill.

I wouldn`t see Baul and Modeus wouldn`t have feats or the credibility of implications to their name.

I would!

Moedus was lightning quick as well when he fought Dante,

One of the only feats they have really, and nothing that Sora couldn't easily replicate.

both brothers are over 2000 years old

Again, age is meaningless.

and they amassed knowledge in that time period, their older, more maturer, more wiser and more knowledgeable as they were trained by Sparda yet they still lost to Dante who wasn`t even at his peak at the time he fought them.

Thus proving how featless and not all that impressive they are!

You have no proof of that and that is a blank statement,

I have some proof, since many members of the Organization have actual impressive feats, and have much more Hax abilities than the brothers displayed, like Lexaeus, Xaldin, Marluxia, Saix, Axel, etc.

Dante would stomp Cloud and Sephiroth like he also did against Vergil, Nero and even himself his own Doppelganger which possessed all of his attributes which would include his skills as well as advancements in swordplay.

I dunno if he would "stomp" Sephiroth, but I can agree that he would beat him.

Riku has beaten many of the members of the Organization in Chain of Memories (love that game) and Roxas to a degree as well.... So how is Sora special?

Considering Riku is roughly Sora's equal, and Roxas potentially could have been Sora's equal, it still makes Sora special.

Especially when he receives help from Donald and Goofy not saying their the significant players only that they are the closest players to keeping Sora in play.

He receives minor help from them, Sora is the main combatant in basically every fight.

Dante does it all on his own most of the time and its not about being more powerful its the fact that Dante owned them like you say the others would, they had much more experience a lot of the enemies Sora faces anyway are adept magic users who fashion their weapons with magic and reality-law breaking, Dante at his core along with his opponents in their components are true swordsmen. Having played and having in my possession KH 2, (seeing KH 2 FM) and having Chain of Memories, I can say with full confidence that Dante would own them as much as Sora did.

No, because as you said the Organization 13 members used magic and Hax abilities, and Dante has never really gone up against opponents like that. The majority of the people he fight rely on brute strength, raw power, and swordsmanship.

The closest that comes to them is Mundus, but he never really displayed hax abilities on the same scale as certain Organization members. So I don't think Dante would be well equipped to handle them.

But honestly, none of that above really matters. The main point here was that Sora is a VERY skilled swordsman. So to say that Dante is his superior in that aspect is, IMO, ridiculous.

He ultimately would but that isn`t quite the point.

Yes, it is. Sora would wreck Nero, because he is his superior in every regard.

Nero strength-wise and having efficiency with his sword Red Queen is not too far off from Sora he`s just really lacking in the robust raw magical department which compliments most of Sora`s abilities anyway

Strength wise Nero hasn't done anything comparable to cutting skyscrapers in half, and he really doesn't have all that many impressive skill feats besides keeping up with Dante, which is a circular argument since Dante and Sora are equals in that department anyway.

and Dante is more than just a solid opponent if you look less at the mechanics, and more at the variables.

I'm looking at both, and they both suggest that Sora would win due to his far superior speed, superior strength, equal skill, equal if not superior endurance, and equal if not superior durability.

Dante has no real advantage over Sora, and that's just a fact. The only thing he has is healing factor, and Sora makes up for that with his durability.

Dante in my opinion has faced REAL swordsmen the only standouts for Sora would be Cloud, Squall, Sephiroth and Terra but they don`t quite surpass Vergil they may be super close but not quite there.

And I disagree, specifically for Terra and Sephiroth since they both have been training all of their life, become masters at their respective form of combat, etc.

IMO, Terra could beat Vergil, and Sephiroth could stand a fair shot. Vergil might win, but it would be a good fight.

I know you may disagree but putting magic, high-grade weaponry and energized clashing aside, Dante combats and flows in combat within the territory of the nitty-gritty.

You can't just "put aside" main aspects of their fighting style to compare them.

Just because the enemies Dante fights are more "nitty-gritty," the enemies Sora fights are much more versatile, as they are both skilled and able to use unique abilities as you just admitted.

So yet again, this proves that Sora and Dante are at LEAST equals when it comes to skill, because while Dante takes down more "swordsman-oriented" type opponents, the enemies that Sora face are in general much more powerful because they posses both skill AND magic/high-grade weaponry/energized-clashing/hax/etc.

I could come to an agreement with this idea being fact but Vergil could match Sora and he is really impressive when it comes to reading movements just like Sephiroth as well as the others but he`s more hardcore.

I don't understand how you could possibly say this though.

If we were to agree that, skill-wise, Dante and Sora were equals, and Dante has beaten Vergil SEVERAL times, than that would mean that Vergil COULDN'T match Sora.

That's just logic mate!

my point is that if Dante were to have the Keyblade or atleast a Keyblade he would be able to do things Sora probably wouldn`t be able to do or comprehend, he would wonder how did he do that and I could see Sora`s expression amounting to that very fact.

I completely disagree, as there is no evidence supporting that fact. However, it's a moot point, as it's just speculation and holds no real weight here, especially considering that it's been reasonably established that Sora and Dante are equals when it comes to skill.

I want to see Sora match these!

Yes, I am well aware of how versatile Dante is when it comes to weaponry! His ability to master a weapon is unmatched, I fully agree there.

The only point I was making is that Sora can do the same thing, once again attesting to the fact that they're equals in skill. He just doesn't do it frequently because the Keyblade is the most powerful weapon in the series, and thus doesn't ever need to be replaced really. Why use other weapons when the best one is in his possession?

I know he did but my point still remains as fact. My point is that they can match and go toe to toe with Sora

Except it's not a fact, because they can't match Sora. If they could, he wouldn't have beaten them. Go "toe-to-toe" with him, yes. But not match him.

Now, Roxas could have been his equal, but he hadn't reached his full potential yet.

Riku could have been his equal, if not superior, but his heart isn't as strong as Sora's and is too easily swayed by Darkness.

but I even wouldn`t consider them to be that skilled or closely in skill to Nelo Angelo.

I would, considering (as you point out in your next point) Sora is vastly more powerful and, IMO, skilled, so being beat by Sora isn't a bad feat whatsoever.

Your argument probably is but Sora is vastly more powerful,

Of course.

I`m not denying that but in skill its a different story.

Again, by this point we've basically established that Sora is Dante's equal in skill, so all of this is moot anyway.

He does and I`ve seen them but it does not mean the other characters are featless thus not creditless Baul and Modeus both were the embodiment of the statements that described them

So you say, but as I detailed above, there's no real proof to support that IMO.

and they both had ongoing feats also Nelo alone is on par with Terra so it only adds to my point about Dante`s consistency.

Terra is Vergil's equal if not superior IMO, so Nelo being on par with Terra doesn't really strike me as correct.

But again, even if you're correct, that only yet again points to them being equals in skill, which is a point I think has been firmly established.

I can agree here but like I said its about the testing of the characters and everything that surround them.

If you can agree that they're equally skilled, then you can pretty much ignore everything I've written above lol, because that entire first part of our debate is almost entirely regarding skill.

So not true... I have KH 1, KH 2 and Chain of Memories, Sora has been knocked out as well as knocked down by the Nobodies in Twilight Town

When was this?

and King Mickey had to save him also in what way is it shown that Sora messing around?

And when was this? If you mean King Mickey showing up when you die in the game, that's just gameplay.. There's no actual canon cutscene suggesting he ever comes in to help Sora at any point in the game.

I played and beat Sephiroth it never said nor showed any element in which Sora was holding back I would find it to be the contrary because Sora knew how dangerous Sephiroth was and that he wanted the Keyblade yet he had to give it his all to face and defeat him.

After the fight, Sora (who doesn't look hurt, tired, exhausted, or fatigued in the slightest) just responds "How'd you like that?"

That pretty much DEFINES just messing around.

Dante fighting Nero, The Savior, all the other demons and fighting TDE is messing around, that is the definition of messing around having fun, doing it like it is casual and then cheering because you are winning.

As does what I showed above.

That is extremely false.

It isn't though.

By your logic he didn`t beat the other bosses without fatiguing cause

He wasn't fatigued with the other bosses, that's the point.

I don`t remember him fatiguing or tiring out only being a bit overwhelmed

The only fight where he displayed any sort of fatigue is after battling Xemnas, and even them him and Riku were able to fight an entire LEGION of Nobodies.

Sora doesn't get fatigued easily, same as Dante.

and even then that doesn`t prove he hasn`t given it his all like

He never gives it his all, and that's a fact.

I said he`s been overpowered and distressed by the Nobodies,

Prove it.

he gave it his all against Ansem,

Prove it.

Riku and

Prove it.

even Cerberus.

Prove it.

Normally I wouldn't be so obstinate about that sorta thing, but the fact of the matter is Sora will NOT be fatigued in this fight. He can hold at as long as Dante can, if not longer.

And if Dante doesn't give it his all in this fight, he's going to get ANNIHILATED by Sora.

Also just because Dante is panting does not mean he is fatigued or severely weakened it just shows his limits and it takes those who are of a certain caliber to exactly match him to be able to show those limits which doesn`t even happen commonly

I don't believe I said he was severely weakened, only that he had reached his limits.

And that point is that Sora is capable of reaching those limits, and exceeding them.

The same could be said about many of Sora`s feats but I don`t want to nitpick too much.

If you think I'm holding a double standard, please, point it out. Because most of Sora's feats are quantifable, as they're against opponents with a pretty defined power-level.

Also we don`t need to know we can make calculations

Calculations are assumptions unless they have significant amount of logic and actual significant numbers behind them, and the Savior feat just doesn't have that.

and the Savior was much larger than the Hell Gates

Siz =/= weight, especially considering it was a demonic statue, and thus it's insides could be hollow/not as heavy/etc.

It's just unquantifiable, simple as that.

also it seems like double standard considering the Lion King feat.

Oh no mate, I didn't mean for it to come across as a double standard at all. Apologies if it did.

The point I was making is that if you want to use an unquantifiable lifting feat to define Dante's strength, then I have an equally impressive lifting feat (if not more so) for Sora. And since lifting feats don't really matter all that much in a fight, it really doesn't matter in the first place. So the point is as far as lifting strength goes they're at LEAST equal.

But Sora still has the MASSIVE edge in striking feats, which are way more important.

Plus, you asked for a lifting feat for Sora!

And I would like to see the so called class 10s who can do that feat exactly the way Dante did it.

What, crack a stone? Because that's what I was talking about, as you tried to use it as a feat to display the Savior's strength.

If that's what you're talking about, I can do you even better.

Gallery

Spider-Man, who is usually classified as no more than a Class 10, destroys a building casually.

Dante also stomped the Nefasturris a skyscraper demon he had no problem in taking it down

The Nefasturris is a VERY small portion of a skyscraper, it's not like he took down the whole skyscraper. Still doesn't even come CLOSE to cutting six in one swipe.

and he has broken through Mundus` rocks that he conjured up as easily as Sora cut up those skyscrapers

SIX skyscrapers in ONE swipe >>>>>>>> a couple of rocks.

also it shouldn`t even be the highest standard considering I could say Dante and Kratos with enough force could do the exact same thing

Total assumption, given that Dante has never displayed any strength feats suggesting that, and therefore can't be used in this debate.

As for Kratos, I dunno, maybe he could, maybe he couldn't. Not the point though, we're arguing about Dante.

Its more of a guesstimation/assumption than anything but due to his light gauntlets he can create shockwaves, has thunderclaps, and he can crush through enchanted stone with ease also as confirmed by the creators not me his gauntlets contained the concentrated power of a small supernova so that says a lot right there!

Hm, that's right. I forgot about that.

Still, as impressive as a feat as that is, Hercules was throwing Titans into space, so I would say that Hercules >> Beowulf.

Not that it really matters, and Dante used weapons/abilities to take down Beowulf, not actual strength. The same could be said about Sora vs. Hercules though, so it's a moot point really.

Oh, and by the way, to counter another point you made, Hercules even says that he wasn't holding anything back against Sora.

I would say so considering the Savior is much more densely durable than a typical skyscraper or just building its demonic stone infused with Sparda`s power and Dante has pierced through it.

Again, unquantifiable!

I can understand but its not like Dante wouldn`t be able to cut through skyscrapers when he`s damaged and manged to pierce through more powerhouse structures.

I'm sorry mate, but that yet again is NOTHING but PURE SPECULATION. You're assuming that Dante can replicate the feat, but he has done NOTHING akin to cutting ONE skyscraper in half, let alone SIX.

I don`t see how its so super impressive when I can name many characters doing something of greater degree.

It's impressive because it's a more impressive strength feat than anything Dante has done.

Dante>>Sora>>>>Nero is more correct.

Incorrect, as Sora outclasses Dante in every aspect besides healing factor, skill, and arguably durability. (Skill they're equal, and durability is arguable, but Sora is at the very LEAST as durable as Dante, if not more so.)

And I don`t see how Dante wouldn`t be able to replicate that when he has sliced through skyscraper level structures such as the Hell Gates.

Because Hell Gates aren't as thick as skyscrapers, nor as dense, nor as large, and Sora cut thorugh SIX in one swipe, not just one.

Not true, how can you say that? The Hell Gates aren`t normal forms of stone they are demonically enhanced and they act as channels for demons to enter in and out

And thus it isn't so much a strength feat as it is a magic feat, because we don't know what "form of stone" they're made of, or if the magic enhances its durability, etc., thus making it YET AGAIN an unquantifiable feat.

also that is speculation as much as it is assumption

Neon, you know I love Dante. But a majority of YOUR argument has been speculation.

I throw a skill feat at you, and you respond by saying that Dante could do the same thing because his father did it. That's speculation.

I throw a strength feat at you, and you respond by saying that Dante could do the same, even though NONE of Dante's feats compare to cutting through SIX skyscrapers in ONE swipe.

So, and I mean no disrespect by this, but I'm going to skip over the strength argument until you can provide a feat equivalent to the one I mentioned above. And not just an argument saying "Dante should be able to do that too." I mean actual proof showing something as impressive as the skyscraper feat.

If you cannot, that's fine, but we have to give Sora the edge in strength.

So to sum up you're remaining strength arguments:

Lifting feats aren't that relevant in a fight, it's about striking, and Sora's striking feats are just better. And even if they were important, Sora's feat with the Groundshaker is equal to any lifting feat Dante has.

The skyscraper demon only made up a VERY small portion of a skyscraper, and thus isn't as impressive as Sora's feat.

The Hell Gate feat isn't as impressive because they aren't as big as skyscrapers, we don't know how durable they are so its unquantiable, and Sora cut SIX in one swipe, whereas Dante only did one.

So yeah, I'm done with strength for now, because we're going in circles and none of Dante's striking feats are comparable to the skyscraper one. Moving on!

They have never impaled him and there is no comparison here...

Yes they have, unless you're suggesting that NO boss ever hit Sora. Which would yet again only prove my point that he's never going all out.

So either Sora is the rawest character in the world who's never been hit by a boss ever, or he has been hit and thus has durability feats on par with Dante.

Also you can`t compare the cartoonish violence which happens in-game to that of the comparison to the cutscenes that pretty much almost always happen in Devil May Cry

Um, yes, I can. Kingdom Hearts is cartoony, which only further exemplifies the insane durability that Sora would have, if we compare him to OTHER cartoon characters that almost have like infinite durability.

... Also their weapons don`t even compare to Yamato, Rebellion, Sparda or Alastor.

I disagree. I think getting hit by the Ethereal Blades, other Keyblades, Neptune's Trident, giant pieces of buildings, reality warpers, GODS etc. would certainly be comparable to some demonic weapons.

In a sense he did, in a sense he did not, he just showcased more realities to it while Mundus himself actually quite had great detail and the difference is Mundus did not only create pure life he can make as many without any limitations, he has created stars for his dimension when fighting Dante and he can create demons who ON THEIR OWN create dimensions as evidenced with the Nightmare. Also he ruled on a universal scale its confirmed in the manga the Underworld is the other half of the universe and he ruled it....

Again, making life isn't really useful in combat considering he never showed able to do it instantly.

Second, creating a pocket dimension isn't anything special anyway, since people like Green Lantern can do it.

Third Nightmare rules a dimension, but he didn't create it.

And fourth, RULING on a universal scale isn't equal to being universal in power.

When?

Being able to fight Riku and Sora at the same time, both of which are FAR Dante's superior in speed, makes him FAR faster than Mundus.

That is true but all of those enemies Dante could beat so it doesn`t really add to anything

This is wrong, because Dante has never beat someone with feats comparable to them.

and they were Mundus level at best.

This is wrong because Mundus has no feats comparable to them.

Even if we are to compare as much as we now it does not change the fact that Dante has grown too powerful for entities of Mundus` scale examples would be the Despair and Abigail also the Cerberus from DMC Volume 2.

But that doesn't automatically mean that he can beat all of Sora's enemies, who are FAR stronger than Dante's enemies to begin with.

Once again, you're speculating mate!

That is so far from the truth. It was made up of half the universe as confirmed in the manga it has its own space time continuum and there are many planes in the demon world. That doesn`t mean Hades was as strong or authorial as Mundus was and based on feats, Mundus did WAY more also Hades is more of a schemer than anything else similar to Loki.

Once again, ruling the underworld doesn't automatically make you universal, or else Hades would be universal as well, thus making the point moot.

And once again, "based off feats" Mundus would be weaker than Hades because Hades is invincible in his own realm.

Not really considering he created dragons to fight Dante in the second half of their first fight and he creates demons that are meant for fighting. They can do that but can they can do it like Mundus? Now that is the question. I`ve seen GL, SS, The Darkness and even Zeus do it but Mundus has no limit, he has also created a variety of things and he rules over them. Also what is the scale in which they can do it? Mundus created celestial bodies as present in his dimension that he made from scratch a lot of them have to draw energy from somewhere or have matter to manipulate.

All of this is basically a COMPLETE no limits fallacy.

Mundus most definitely DOES have a limit, saying otherwise is ridiculous.

Just because he created a few stars doesn't mean he's suddenly limitless.

The fact of the matter is, Mundus created a pocket dimension. That's it. That's basically his only feat, and as you mentioned several other characters can do the same.

Saying he has no limit is ridiculous, every character has limits, and Mundus didn't even do anything that was all that impressive.

Really, he's below Jafar and Xemnas in power for sure, and is likely on par with Ursula and Hades. Based off feats, that would be the case.

He`s been knocked out by the Nobodies in Twilight Town

I don't recall this, please show me. And even if it happened, by the end of the game Sora is taking out Nobodies casually, so it's really just a low showing at best. That's IF it even happened.

and he`s been bested by Squall although those are earlier points it doesn`t change the fact that it happened.

No, he beat Squall. While in game it doesn't matter if you win or lose, In the official manga for the game, he beats Squall in their encounter, thus showing that the CANON outcome is Sora winning.

Besides, the fact that these are the only showings of Sora being in any real danger, just goes to show how powerful he is by the end of the game. You can't really use a beginning of the game showing to try to lowball Sora.

None of them comparing to Dante being cut, pierced and impaled by Yamato, Alastor, Sparda, Rebellion

Based off what? Your own personal opinion?

Because based off feats, Keyblades gave the user planetary+ power. Neptune's Trident gave the user COMPLETE control over the seas. Sephiroth's sword is said to be able to cut through reality IIRC.

The point is, there's no proof that the damage Sora has tanked is any less potent than the damage Dante has tanked.

I saw this feat, how is different from Mundus making stars out of a perfectly made dimension?

First off, Mundus never even made stars. There is no proof that those are stars, they just look like regular fireballs.

Second, playing with PLANETS is far superior to throwing a couple of miniature "stars." Except, yet again, there's nothing proving that those ARE stars, as opposed to just being fireballs.

So, Jafar is still >>>>>> Mundus, and Xemnas is still >>>>>>>> Jafar.

That is true but it doesn`t exactly mean he is more powerful than Mundus especially his feats there is no huge gap only aconsiderable one and Dante still dwarfs Mundus so...

Oh no, there's a considerable gap.

Considering that there's a decent gap between playing with planets like they're toys, and throwing a couple fireballs, I would say that Jafar already dwarfs Mundus by quite a bit.

And considering that Xemnas is much stronger than Jafar, that just goes to show how HUGE the gap really is.

So even after considering that Dante dwarfs Mundus, the fact is that Sora's enemies dwarf Mundus as well.

This means that Sora has feats of tanking hits from these guys and defeating them, making his durability MUCH stronger than Dante's, whos never tanked a hit from a being as strong as the enemies Sora usually fights.

Dante has tanked being crushed, smashed by lava heated ancient gauntlets, impaled in the heart, hit in the brain by Nero`s DB, reality warping, fire hotter than any conventional form of fire and much more.... Sora hasn`t tanked anything lethal or that would actually kill him I don`t see Sora surviving half of the things Dante tanks and Dante tanks them in-cutscene as well, that compliments the criteria.

This is wrong, as I explained above, because Sora has tanked attacks from enemies that are FAR stronger than any of Dante's enemies. And he shrugs them off casually.

No, Dante tanks and heals his durability is just as good as his healing factor, we don`t usually see Sora straight-out tanking things if its not in the gameplay and its cartoonish violence so of course its going to look like he`s shrugging off excess damage.

As I've explained above, the cartoonish violence IS Sora's durability. He's just that tough, that most attacks don't do any damage because he is for all intents and purposes invulnerable.

It's like placing Dante in a fight against Bugs Bunny. Even though Bugs is just a cartoon character, his durability feats suggest that he could tank anything that Dante had to offer.

Same with Sora. His durability IS cartoonish, so that's why he's so hard to put down.

Whereas Dante's durability is a lot more realistic, and thus he can be put down easier once you get past the healing factor.

Dante has dodged light from Beowulf which move in an omnidirectional fashion and those are ethereal needles but I digress cause remember the lore was a bit different,

As you admitted, those aren't lasers, and thus the feat isn't as impressive.

however Dante has dodged lasers, light beams and just pure light

Once again, reflecting an omnidirectional barrage of lasers>>>>>> dodging lasers, lightbeams and pure light.

All of those things move at lightspeed, so obviously both Sora and Dante are FTL.

The only difference is that Sora's feat is far more impressive, and makes him MFTL+, whereas Dante is stuck at FTL because his feats only suggest that much. Maybe in a new game he'll get a more impressive feat, but for now he's stuck at FTL.

another thing is its movement speed for him for Sora its like a sequence, a stationary one where he has to guard he doesn`t react right away and blitz like Dante does

Incorrect I'm afraid. The fact that the lasers were coming from EVERY direction means that he wasn't guarding, he had to move around and deflect 50% of those lasers.

Whereas Dante may have a faster travel speed, Sora reacts faster and has faster reflexes, which will allow him to blitz Dante.

Although if Dante tries to run away because of his superior travel speed, Sora can close the gap with his teleportation.

also Dante can literally disappear.....

As can Sora.

Another thing is Dante deflected Mundus` light laser beam and he`s only gotten faster after that point not slower.

Again, I'm not questioning Dante's FTL status.

I'm merely pointing out that Sora is indeed faster based off feats, and yet again there's no real way for you to argue with that unless you can provide an ACTUAL feat of Dante doing something on that level.

Not true its not a legit ability he doesn`t do it commonly.

You can't just say it's not a "legit ability" because he doesn't do it all the time.

The point is, he did it. Which means he can, end of story.

And by the way, he does do it fairly commonly.

He does it against the Hydra (another really good strength feat btw, just saying):

Does it against Xemnas:

AND IF THAT WASN'T ENOUGH, he even has an ability that is literally called teleport.

Even if you are right,

I am right.

it still pales in comparison to what Dante has shown to do consistently and in-custscene.

Teleporting is teleporting, you can't be "better" at teleporting.

Either you can do it, or you can't, and Sora can.

Although, I never recall Dante doing it. He just moves so fast that he's invisible, but he doesn't actually have a canon teleportation skill IIRC. All the feats you showed just demonstrated his immense speed. But really you wouldn't even need to be FTL to do that, even a Massively hypersonic character could disappear with their speed. Prove me wrong if so.

Just because he hasn`t shown he can do it doesn`t mean he can`t its up to us decide to fill in those gaps as well

If he hasn't shown he can, then we can't assume he can for the purpose of this battle. We have to consider his feats, and see if any of them suggest that he's capable of replicating it.

In the case of Sora's laser feat, he's not, because NONE of his feats are even CLOSE to that.

and with that logic also like you mentioned before Sora would be able replicate plenty of what Dante has done which he hasn`t done in-cutscene like Dante has done within his respective game universe consistently.

In most cases Sora would be, because every feat Dante has Sora has done the same, if not better.

The same can't be said vice-versa, because Sora has better feats than Dante does for the most part.

I`m not sold on the idea Sora is MFTL that means he in league with Birus or Flash which is far from true

Based off feats, it IS true.

You can't say it's far from true, because it is a legitimate feat that places Sora as MFTL.

So if he's in league with Bills or Flash, then so be it. But that's not what's important.

What's important is that he IS MFTL, and Dante is not. Thus giving Sora a major advantage.

also even if it were true it would be more akin to movement/reflex not reaction combat speed and perception

Actually, it would be the exact opposite. What Sora did was more of a reflex/reaction speed feat. He was able to detect when each laser was coming, and deflect it accordingly.

Now if you want to argue his TRAVEL speed isn't that fast, that's another thing.

because Sora`s mobility can be in question while Dante actually is a more fluid character and he moves instantaneously.

Again, you're talking about travel speed here. I'd agree that Dante moves faster than Sora (like being able to outpace light, run down buildings at reentry speeds, etc.), but Sora's combat/reaction/reflex speeds are faster (those three basically mean the same thing).

So Dante can TRAVEL faster, but Sora can FIGHT faster.

Yes he has.... He has dodged lasers, light beams and light itself he has four legit feats for his lightspeed combat reaction speed...

Which all pale in comparison to Sora's one lightspeed feat, as I explained above.

. Also Sora has never disappeared or moved so fast that he is stopping rain in its tracks

Stopping rain when fighting doesn't indicate FTL speeds, a massively hypersonic character could do that.

It's unquantifiable, and still not as impressive as deflecting an omnidirectional barrage of lasers.

neither has he launched himself and as maneuverable as Dante has on a moving missile.

Again, I've already admitted that Dante has better travel speed.

Dante`s memory muscle is better

Lol, I don't know where that came from!

and he is more seamless

I disagree.

while Sora is stationary or one dimensional with how he reacts to an attack.

False. As I explained above, you would have to move around to react to each individual laser coming at you from all angles.

And I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "one dimensional."

MFTL reaction speed is MFTL reaction speed, no matter how you look at it.

Dodging light attacks,

Not as impressive as Sora's feat, we've established that.

entering re-entry levels

Movement speed.

and stopping rain with pure speed friction

Unquantifiable, as you don't even have to be FTL to do that really.

Unless you want to try and calc it using math and stuff, then it's an unquantifiable feat.

when has Sora ever done that the only single feat you can use is the lasers and even that is questionable.

That "single feat" is the only one I need, because it outshines EVERY speed feat Dante has.

And I fail to see how it's "questionable."

Dante is more consistent with his FTL feats than Sora is with being MFTL

Perhaps, but that doesn't change the fact that he's MFTL.

You only need one feat to determine you're speed. Just because you don't display that speed all the time, doesn't mean it suddenly goes away.

and Sora doesn`t actively teleport its by command.

I don't understand. What do you mean its "by command"?

Sora can teleport whenever he chooses to, as I displayed above in full detail.

Dante actually teleports

Arguable, because all the examples you've shown me only consist of Dante moving so fast he's invisible, no actual canon teleportation ability.

and he has seen invisible demons as well as defeated them with pure perception.

That doesn't help here, since those demons weren't MFTL like Sora.

No he is not he could beat them with not much trouble

Then he's more powerful than them...

but it wouldn`t matter to Dante who could do the same and who is even more powerful than the bosses you mentioned as well

False, I've addressed this.

also when adding the factors of cutscenes you have a whole new edging point in the argument itself,

QTEs are just as valid as cutscenes, so it doesn't really change anything here.

Dante has more going for him and his consistency seems to be more reflective of his credibility existing in both in-game and in-custscene instances add the manuals and.....

And yet all of that "consistency" doesn't stack up to the majority of Sora's feats, which are FAR more impressive.

Sora really isn`t as consistent

Perhaps, but his feats certainly suggest he's more powerful, as I've fully detailed above.

or impressive.

Now that's just straight up blasphemy.

He has collapsed as well

Still waiting to see this.

and I could say the same for Dante

I know, that's why I said "moot point."

You seem to be misunderstanding me.

I'm agreeing that Sora and Dante are equals when it comes to Skill and Endurance.

I've even admitted that Dante takes the edge in Movement Speed and Healing Factor.

I'm only claiming that Sora is superior in Reaction/Combat Speed, Strength, and Durability(arguably they're equal, but based off the enemies they've encountered, plus Sora's cartoonish invulnerability, Sora might take the edge).

Since there's no magic or extra abilities or anything in this fight, those are really the only aspects that matter, and Sora just has too many advantages to lose here.

he will kill Sora right off the bat

He will try. But unfortunately, he will fail. Terribly.

No he has not and I already explained that Dante has tanked what Sora has tanked both in gameplay as well as cutscene, Sora HAS NEVER been impaled ever. Judgment cut, cuts right through reality on a dimensional level also its more swift as well as unpredictable than what Sora is used to also its more blunt damage than explosive force.

Again, unless you're implying that Sephiroth never tagged him once in their encounter, then it just shows that Sora's cartoonish ability allows him to not GET impaled. So Dante won't be able to do it either.

I could say Sora is barely MFTL....

You could, but you'd be wrong considering Sora was able to deflect a barrage of beams moving at lightspeed.

Characters who are not as fast or mobile have tagged Sora

Oh, so what you're saying is that Sora HAS been tagged by his opponents?

Well in that case, that yet again just goes to show that Sora's durability is enough to tank anything Dante or Vergil throw his way, since he's gone up against tougher opponents and tanked attacks from them with no issues.

also I don`t see Sora dodging his Judgment Cuts either

I do, since he's done this:

and Vergil doesn`t need to be FTL to tag Sora especially when it would be two on one.

Yes he would. If two turtles are trying to tag a rabbit, it doesn't matter HOW MANY turtles there are, the rabbit is still going to be faster.

Same basic idea.

Vergil actually matched Dante

Yeah, the weakest version of Dante.

who can react and combat with Beowulf who fires light attacks at lightspeed

Again, I'm not questioning Dante and Vergil's FTL combat speed.

I'm merely saying that they're not as fast as Sora, neither of them.

The fact that he matched (albeit weaker version of) Dante shows that he IS FTL.

But the lack of many other feats don't give us a clear picture of just how fast he is.

also teleportation is instant,

Sora has this as well.

how does MFTL beat that exactly in a combat scenario...

Exactly how I explained in this entire extremely long post!

Yamato has cut through more things actually in cut-scene as well making more impressive, convincing as well as believably valid.

Such as? What has Yamato actually cut through in cut-scene?

It possess more magic and its a mystical weapon although the Keyblade is magical in nature I feel as though Yamato is more rawly rooted in demonics and magic.

In demonics, yes. In magic, no.

So far from true, its sealed a dimension, acted as key for reopening dimensions and its cut through invulerable weapons such as the Devil Bringer.

None of that makes my statement "so far from true." I said that it has only sealed a dimension ONCE, and that still stands as true.

Yamato has done that as well what makes the Keyblade more impressive other than casually?

How can you say "other than casually"???

The fact that Sora does it so casually IS what makes that more impressive.

And as if that wasn't enough, Sora and the Keyblade have done it far more than Yamato has.

Sparda has done it casually and he has done so with many more things beside weaponry.

Irrelevant, since Dante =/= Sparda.

it wouldn`t matter since that wouldn`t work in a combat scenario when up against someone like Dante

Sora does it every time he takes down a boss.

When you beat a boss, you're unlocking their heart and then the Darkness consumes them, which is why at the end of every boss fight they get swallowed up by Darkness.

So Sora could do the same to Dante, who (even though he's a good-guy) still has some Darkness in his heart. Everybody does.

and I find it hard to believe that Sora would be able to hit a moving target that is known for vanishing from thin air on a consistently casual basis that none of Sora`s enemies have shown to do in gameplay or outside of it.

Considering how much faster Sora is, it shouldn't really be hard to believe, especially when Sora can vanish from thin air as well.

You actually haven`t. Rebellion is a match for the Keyblade and they aren`t quite that different if you are to really map out what they have shown or have done.

False, because as I have established, the Keyblade has dealt with enemies FAR superior to any enemy Dante has gone up against.

The Keyblade has done damage to Xemnas and Jafar, two characters who surpass ALL of the enemies met in the DmC series.

Rebellion hasn't gone up against an opponent even CLOSE to as powerful as them.

So, based off feats, Keyblade >>>>> Rebellion or Yamato.

First he sealed Mundus and the demon world then he did so again with Yamato as confirmed in DMC 4 he also sealed the Despair demon in DMC 2 along with the demon world.

Sealing demons <<<<< Sealing worlds, and Sora does that on a casual and consistent basis.

That is true but I`m talking about its consistent and ongoing feats, Yamato usually is universal + dimensional on the regular.

If we're talking about consistent and ongoing, Yamato only has one dimensional feat. No universal feats, whereas the Keyblade does have universal feats, and MULTIPLE dimensional feats.

Not true, that is the only real identifier Yamato is more powerful

Not true!

and its cut through more things that I would find more impressive in combat.

False, because as we've discussed above Sora has taken down FAR more impressive enemies than Dante has taken down with Yamato, specifically Xemnas, Jafar, Ursula, Hades, etc.

Yamato can unlock different powers,

As can the Keyblade.

It can even grant special abilities when different keychains are equipped to it.

and that only proves versatility

Which the Keyblade has the edge in.

not actual raw physical power as Yamato should hold the edge in that regard.

Incorrect, for reasons stated above.

They were banished from Heaven like Mundus was and Sparda had to seal them by taking away their power as they were sealed to the earth because they threatened the world. Also feats don`t define all factors they are just one of the factors and feats can be so powerfully misused that they can create a spiral that can cause consistency to become inconsistency sometimes statements is all you need as long as nothing is contradicting or retconning them like you see in comics most of the time.

So...in other words, they have no feats?

Because without feats, there's no way for us to gauge the abilities of a character.

A statement isn't enough, or Odin would be omnipotent and Hulk would be stronger than TOAA because he's the "Strongest there is!"

Without feats, statements are meaningless, and the Seven Sins have none.

Sparda has done the same and he has done it with more than just his standard weapons he has done it with relics also he has more experience in doing it while Sora does it one dimensionally his track record lies more with sealing Keyholes while Sparda does grander things on a grander scale on a more patterned basis.

While I disagree, for reasons that I have detailed thoroughly throughout this post, the main point I'd like to counter is this:

while Sparda does grander things on a grander scale on a more patterned basis.

Irrelevant, because Dante =/= Sparda, as I've pointed out multiple times.

It actually does because he can use those things in combat and he has also when he first sealed Mundus he faced him in combat and banished his demons also how would Jackpot which Dante is known for using count as being useless in a combat situation?? Also Sora`s unlock abilities deal more with the help and it wouldn`t work all the time it works on those it is meant to work the ones of darkness

Unlocking your heart works on EVERYBODY, because everybody has Darkness in their hearts.

He is more powerful all-around

Based off feats, this is simply untrue.

Sora has dealt with more powerful threats, and has better feats against such opponents.

and he has more feats especially dealing with speed which your main argument seems to be that speed is Sora`s strongest advantage.

It definitely is in this fight since there is no magic/abilites or anything like that.

And the fact that he has MORE feats doesn't matter, because Sora's ONE speed feat is vastly superior to ALL of Dante's.

I`ve used all of them and they are BOSS no doubt about that but I can`t really see them as being superior when even the Drive Forms haven`t proven to be as versatile as Dante`s transformations as Dante has not only more but MANY that actually function much more specific and unique. Final Form and Wisdom Form are like an upgrade of Valor form just add two keyblades, stronger aura and more magic with the damage output the truly unique exception would be the Anti-Form (my a favorite arguably). Dante has Dreadnaught, Sparda, Devil Trigger, Majin and each transformation changes with the change of a Devil Arm also Dante can fly while Sora only levitates in his Drive Forms.

I disagree, and although I was going to argue this, I realized there is no point as DT and Drive Forms aren't in this battle, so it's pointless.

Sora can keep going but the gap is still quite big once you have a healing factor such as Dante which even godlike characters and weapons of cutting-edge force cannot overcome weapons that are designed to cut pass regeneration or a tricky durability don`t kill or at least put Dante in any real harm even when he faced Vergil,

I disagree about durability, but I've already detailed that above.

Sora's tanked hits from much stronger characters, he can tank plenty of hits from Dante.

Dante was never in any real harm which also means your argument about him fatiuing and being out of energy is severely incorrect it didn`t actually push him also Dante since then has NEVER EVER shown fatigue.

And likewise, Sora has only shown fatigue ONCE, and even then it was only minor fatigue.

Not true, Sora will get stomped fighting both at once

I disagree.

especially since Vergil can teleport and vanish as well as Dante

As can Sora, the only difference as he has TRUE teleportation, as opposed to just moving really fast.

while Sora not to my knowledge has ever faced an enemy of that caliber in sheer movement-coordination speed.

Xemnas.

Vergil will read his moves and act accordingly even if Sora is faster in some categories

Sora is faster in the categories that matter in a fight. Reflexes, combat speed, and reaction speed.

Vergil can read what he can't see.

Vergil to me is certainly more rawer

I disagree.

and acts in quick burst also you wouldn`t argue that Sora would be able to take on both Goku and Vegeta who both use IT.

First off, I don't believe Vegeta uses IT.

Second, I wouldn't say he could take on both of them because they're as fast, if not MUCH faster than Sora when it comes to combat speed.

Vergil and Dante, on the other hand, don't have that advantage.

I disagree. Sora would beat Vergil but not as casually as you are making it out to be

I disagree.

Vergil dwarfs Xemnas,

False. Even by your own admission, Terra would be a good fight for Vergil, and IMO he stands a VERY good shot of winning.

And Xemnas >>>>>>> Terra, so Vergil would get STOMPED by Xemnas.

He's faster, stronger, has reality warping abilities, etc.

Vergil would get wrecked. As would Dante.

Sephiroth and Cloud also he is more lethal he will go straight for the KILL.

Sephiroth is already a good fight for Vergil, and we both know Seph will go straight for the kill, he just couldn't because Sora was so powerful.

Dante would take out Cloud faster considering his ability to vanish and a couple of Keyblade strikes won`t be bringing down Vergil so easily whose healing factor was on par with DMC 3 Dante`s also Dante has lightspeed feats in DMC 3 Beowulf being a prime example and he`s matched Dante blow for blow while being able to teleport which he also has over Sora in terms of feats and showings, this you cannot deny.

Aside from the teleportation, speed, and durability arguments that I've already covered, I'd like to point out once again that the battle won't likely be a 1v1, it will be a 2v2, because Sora is used to fighting in a team.

I agree but I disagree once again. Sora will be a strong contender when facing Dante but Dante going all out is a different monster entirely and I certainly don`t think Sora could take Vergil easily.

As detailed above, Sora has the majority of advantages here besides healing factor and movement speed, so if Sora was going all out, Dante would be outmatched, as would Vergil to an even easier extent.

Its the other way around actually. Dante beats Cloud as he has shown to teleport as well as VANISH unlike Sora

Sora can teleport to, and you haven't proven that Dante can actually teleport as opposed to just moving fast.

and he will kill Cloud on the spot since he`s going all out then Vergil will stall Sora with teleportation

Same dealio with teleportation, and Sora would stomp Vergil because he is his superior in every aspect sans Healing Factor, but Sora will easily be able to overcome that.

and Judgment Cuts which Sora could have a problem with because he doesn`t have Command Techniques for certain situations in Kingdom Hearts when doing things aerially

Sora has plenty of Command Techniques that he uses in air, just look at his fight with Xemnas.

and Sora certainly won`t be able to win against both.

Cloud is here too, so he won't be alone.

He'll just blitz both, and Cloud will be backup.

I think Sora would get uber-stomped to be honest, there`s no way he is taking on two characters of that speed caliber when his previous enemies have never shown to be of that range when it comes to the demonstration of speed their one dimensional while Dante and Vergil are three dimensional.

Even if Sora doesn't WIN, which is arguable in and of itself, he most certainly won't get uber-stomped.

Referring again to my previous metaphor, two turtles vs one rabbit, the rabbit will still hold a significant speed edge despite the amount of turtles.

Not saying Dante and Vergil are slow, but in comparison to Sora they kinda are.

Team wins.

I agree, Sora's Team wins.

I agree, this is awesome :)

Indeed, an absolutely marvelous debate!

As have I, my friend.

As have I.

Jmarshmallow

@cerberus369616: Any point you could have made, I probably covered in my response to @neongamewave.

So consider that my response to you as well.

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow

I saw your response and I cannot wait to respond! It is excellent as well as impressive, the structure in which the points, arguments and information are structured is super-strong!

But I can`t at the moment unfortunately because my computer really has been causing quite a stir of problems for me. I have to get the opportunity when I`m at school if I am to truly access what I need to, and if I am to keep focus without any interruptions. My posts were supposed to be a lot longer and a lot more layered but its because of these reasons that I haven`t been able to perform up to standard in regards to the way that I wish I could.

However, I have done an extreme amount of research and I played KH 1 and DMC 4 just recently today back to back to one another in comparison all I can say is that a lot of what you have been saying about Sora overall has been off or overestimated beyond even Sora`s overall opus, a lot of it has been unmistakably unfactual. Once I respond, I am going to be addressing durability versus durability which actually is strongly in Dante`s favor as also his enemies are far greater (beaten all of Sora`s bossess replayed even his strongest who we both know would be Ansem and none of them including Ansem in feats are even comparable to that of Mundus, NONE) and I got the reconfirmation with the playing experience. I`m playing more of the earlier games for Sora so I can see his foundation in which I will be able to gauge it to the point of his maximum in Kingdom Hearts 2. I`ve played KH 2 many more times and beaten it many more times, so it makes sense to start off with the starting points where it all began. Good times and unforgettable memories :) I plan on playing all the other games for both Sora and Dante respectively, but even thus far, Sora isn`t as close as you are making him out to be and many of his boss fights as well as cutscenes have strong and I mean heavy-strong connotations as well as contexts behind them.

Prepare yourself, I am going to show why Dante is Sora`s superior and Sora is a character I can personally relate to as much as I can in the comparison to Dante (also I grew up more with Sora`s character, KH 1 was one of my first PS2 games but DMC came shortly after and it easily rivaled it) so this will be interesting once I give the official breakdown from durability to striking power and then finally speed (which there are more feats for Dante and there is more that needs to be mentioned which I couldn`t cover in my original posts). I`m excited and my brain has processed a lot of the information, I have ALOT to say its going to be a long day but certainly worth the wait!

Jmarshmallow

@jmarshmallow said:

@neongamewave

Most definitely :) I kind of had to rush yesterday cause I was occupied but now I have all the time available so my points will be more punctually perfected and potently powerful!

I would expect nothing less!

Thanks :)

While that is true it doesn`t change the matter of the fact of what I have stated, Dante is more experienced and he has had a greater length of time to improvise as well as improve on his skill. Sora defeating the Lingering Will is an undeniable feat, however Dante has faced much more experienced warriors over time and has accumulated knowledge at a much more strongly scaled rate. You may not agree but its shown in his history of feats he`s faced more pure-zealous swordsman.

You're right, I don't agree. I think that Cloud, Sephiroth, Captain Hook, Squall are just as experienced as Dante or anyone Dante has defeated, and yet he handled them soundly.

Not even close lol. Vergil alone is more in tuned with pure technique and his Dark Slayer Style further cements this confirmation. Credo who is a highly trained swordsman of the Order of the Sword showcased more swiftness, nimbleness and accuracy with the handle of his sword than anyone you mentioned here. Also how is Captain Hook even a contender? I remember that boss fight distinctly and even though he was a tricky or forward fighter in his own right he was more of a fencer than anything else (I`m not trying to discredit fencers though cause they can be skilled too) and he can`t even keep balance.

I was only making a point about how awesome Dante does it, I wasn`t actually suggesting that it was apart of the substance of his cemented feats. He just makes it look effortless, seamless and so ridiculous that`s all I`m saying.

Ah, gotcha. Sora's is effortless and seamless as well, let's not forget that.

He is but Dante is just something else when he`s in action and Dante actually makes me go wow most if not all the time but Sora is pure awesome as well :)

Well how about something more impressive and noteworthy?

I'd love to see that!

And you have.

Dante had his energies which includes the reserves of his soul zapped from him by the Nightmare demon in DMC 1. This demon was created by MUNDUS and it was crafted for Dante, and Dante only. Dante defeats it THREE TIMES, the third time Trish is assisting it to take him down and we both know she alone is formidable. This demon was also dimensional not only furthering the fact of how powerful Mundus is but how powerful Dante is.

Let's pause here.

Shall we.

I'm not seeing the big deal about Nightmare. I remember facing him, he was a great boss IIRC...but according to the Lore you have provided me, there is nothing suggesting that he is "dimensional." The closest to that is it says he ruled over a dimension, but that doesn't make him dimensional.

Why? It explicitly said in the form of Dante`s subconscious he transports him to HIS dimension that he wouldn`t have if Mundus did not create him one and Mundus definitely created it because after the conclusion of battle with Mundus there is a transportation out of his dimension like in the Underworld which the Nightmare also has. Also its still more impressive than Sora`s feat cause even though Dante has WAY more feats than Sora when it comes to having his energy or vitals ripped from his very being he not only casually resists it but he can best it as well and its also a testament to his willpower.

1. He`s a neo-generator so he originally did conjure up the dimension and had Dante brought there.

2. Second just like Galactus and all of his Heralds, Mundus gives his Generals a unique set of abilities. It even says he specifically created Nightmare just for Dante and he knows Dante quite well...

3. Nightmare did not just beam Dante somewhere or had a portal open up, it itself swallowed Dante whole and brought it inside of its self.

At one point Alexander the Great ruled over the entire world, that doesn't make his power planetary. Ruling =/= being powerful.

That is true just like Dr. Doom who ruled over Lactveria it doesn`t mean he didn`t have means to becoming or being a universal power and the Nightmare didn`t only own it was bestowed by Mundus who is a dimensional power by definition.

It manifested his inner demons, used his Devil energy against him and that includes having a majority of his magic removed as well as his demon forms reduced. Sparda also defeated an entire army of Mundus` demons which ranged in the thousands + and he faced Mundus, also in the process beating him. I know that is not Dante`s feat exactly but it doesn`t mean it can`t be used for a feat that is compatible, comparable and matchable to the math of his feats. Dante by DMC 4 would be as strong if not more powerful than his Sparda DT in DMC 1.

Again, lots of assumtion here my friend. You're assuming that just because Sparda can do it, means that Dante can as well.

Actually I`m not. You see, Dante has been confirmed to being more powerful than Sparda in many ways and even his skill has been likened to Sparda. I wouldn`t see why he wouldn`t be able to do the same when like Sparda he defeated Mundus and he stomps Mundus level beings also. Its actually ridiculously and unreasonably illogical to assume he can`t do the same especially at this stage if I was talking about DMC 3 Dante or any Dante prior, THEN you would have a point.

Dante has never displayed a feat of such skill and endurance, so we can't say he can because his father did it, despite the fact that Dante should be as powerful as his father by DMC4.

Now that is overlooking every feat he has ever accomplished defeating the Despair and surpassing his father is already a factual confirmation not a featless one. Also you can`t say he has never displayed the skill and endurance especially since he`s NEVER went all out 100%. Dante actually by DMC 4 surpassed his father by a considerable margin this was made clear in DMC 4 actually by the residents of Fortuna.

Maybe one day if they ever decide to continue the actual series (not that reboot disappointment) then we'll know for sure, but for now it's just assumption and therefore can't be used.

I agree but Dante`s feats and parallel consistencies already paint the picture quite clear in terms of how powerful he has become and he`s still more impressive than Sora anyway in terms of willpower which is all you need at the end of the day to endure.

Based on the fact of his connection with his sword and Dante is a way superior swordsman in comparison to that of Cloud yet Cloud has stood toe to toe with Sephiroth on many occasions despite the acknowledged fact in regards to Sephiroth toying with him. Vergil is more in-tuned with the identity of his sword and he wields it like it is apart of him. The accuracy, precision, foreknowledge and wisdom in which Vergil wields his sword is just much greater.

Yeah um...I gotta be honest, ya kinda lost me here!

I don`t see why but this is where it gets very complicated I have to agree.

Like, saying that he has a better "connection with his sword" seems a bit ridiculous to me! Sephiroth has shown on several occasions that he can wield his sword with impeccable accuracy.

That is true though! I can find you more feats of Sephiroth being more skilled in magic and manipulation than actual swordplay. Vergil did not only self-train himself he has unrivaled accuracy, discipline and he`s also skilled with multiple weapons such as Sparda, Rebellion and etc. He`s shown himself more than capable of being impressive across the board, Sephiroth is more of a performer than anything he`s a skilled swordsman no doubt about that! But consistent-wise he isn`t even as skilled as say even Mihawk or Zoro from One Piece and Vergil owns those two. Sephiroth is all about the magic/materia manifefsation of things which is included in his fighting style especially when he wields his sword. Vergil is all about THE SWORD.

And saying that Vergil is better than Seph because Dante is superior to Cloud is a poor argument, because as you yourself acknowledged Sephiroth toys with him more often than not.

Actually it isn`t. That reminds me of what you said about Xemnas being more powerful than Mundus just because he is more powerful than Jafar which doesn`t really connect the dots. Mundus actually by feats is more powerful and especially by in-game feats. I was only making a point about Sephiroth toying with Cloud also it doesn`t mean he hasn`t shown to go out more than not he has many encounters with Cloud after-all and Dante is superior to Cloud by a large margin unlike Seph and Vergil whom both the comparison is more compatibly easier. Seph is a handy swordsman my point is that Vergil is much more impressive and precise with his swordsmanship. I don`t see how Sephiroth even surpasses The Dark Slayer Style let alone Vergil as a whole.

Seph himself could arguably beat Vergil. He'd get beat by Dante soundly, but Vergil? There's a very high likelihood from the research I've done on the character.

Arguably. But it doesn`t mean he can beat Vergil in a pure sword one on one fight, a lot of the times Sephiroth uses his magic to overcome Cloud and his Party. I`ve also done research on both, I`ve played FF7, (I think at one time a bit of Crisis Core and I`ve seen Sephiroth`s fights with Angeal & Genesis and watched Advent Children also I`ve analyzed his sword mechanics in KH. All he does is swing and swing not saying it implies he doesn`t have skill its just that I`ve seen many anime characters do that and they have all they have is a reputation to their name while when it comes to Vergil its not all about being one-dimensionally straight forward with a sword strike, its about the craft, grace and dance of the sword. I think Spehiroth would win because of magic (which he relies on quite heavily) not because he`s talented with his sword.

And the fact that Cloud has even been able to stand toe to toe with him (admittedly because Sephiroth doesn't go all out) shows that Cloud could go toe-to-toe with him suggests that he could at least hang with Dante for a time, and stall with Vergil.

Cloud can stand toe to toe with him but that doesn`t help the overall argument. Sephiroth doesn`t go all-out but it doesn`t mean he hasn`t done so when fighting Cloud. He was truly toying with Cloud in Advent Children but in the games its different to a much more distinguishable degree. This is wrong to the core, Cloud is NOWHERE and I mean nowehere near Dante`s level or even just Vergil`s skill he`s a superhuman character with nice stats but that`s it. The speed gap is not even huge or large its super-ubermassive. Now that argument is a little shaky and not sustained in my opinion because Cloud facing Sephiroth is not the same as Cloud facing Dante and Vergil both whom are more skilled as well as faster.

Baul is 2000 years old

Age means nothing!

It does, its just a number but its what it means in the way you use it like solving a numeric equation.

and rose to the ranks in the Underworld`s army if he was of no use Sparda would HAVE NEVER of entrusted him with anything.

Rank means nothing!

It does especially in this case in the regard of who they trained under.

A demon who saw him in action and was associated with him even confirmed that he kills thousands of demons in a split second which when fighting Dante he has shown split second speed he just wasn`t up to par.

That's just a demon bragging/lying. They're demons, they do that.

That`s sometimes. The demon Sid in the anime is a bragging type of demon but that demon is quite right especially since its pretty much considered fact on multiple accounts. And why would he need to lie about something he`s seen?

Had he actually killed thousands of demons in a split second, he could have blitz Dante with ease. That would make him MFTL, and Dante wouldn't have been able to compete.

That is not true, now this is a weak argument. Firstly, Baul`s brother actually came close to blitzing Dante but he just couldn`t and he was much faster than lightning, and that doesn`t make someone MFTL. Another thing is Baul kills thousands of demons in one swipe that is what I meant.

Either that, or those demons he killed weren't strong in the slightest, thus making the feat less reliable.

Not true and you can`t say that when the demons he fought were in the Underworld there are different classes, in the deeper depths of the Underworld the strongest demons are shown as they emerge that is the demons whom Baul fought.

Sparda was also the greatest living swordsman in all of the demon world which houses millions of demons and has many planes, Mundus had Sparda as his general in his army so....

We're not talking about Sparda though mate, we're talking about Baul and Modeus!

That is the point! They trained and were mentored under Sparda so all of a sudden that means nothing? That same Sparda who was known for those KEY events in the history of all of DMC trained them and passed down his knowledge to them, being trained by the greatest swordsman in the Underworld is no simple statement.

Just because Sparda was their mentor doesn't mean that they're as powerful as him, not even close.

I didn`t even say they were as powerful or even parallel to him my point was that they learned well from him and that their feats further demonstrated their skill its just that Dante grew more powerful than them as he also did his father who trained them, there`s a difference.

Batman has mentored tons of heroes over the years, but that doesn't mean they're equal to him in skill.

I know he has and its the same as Anikan being trained by Obi-Wan Kenobi, I`m not saying they are equal in skill. I`m saying they are skilled and have set their own standard of skill. Which a lot of the times, its about that anyway, its about taking what you learned and applying it.

I wouldn`t see Baul and Modeus wouldn`t have feats or the credibility of implications to their name.

I would!

I have actually proven both characters worth and it is yet to be debunked.

Moedus was lightning quick as well when he fought Dante,

One of the only feats they have really, and nothing that Sora couldn't easily replicate.

Incorrect. Their skill, prowess with the strength of their swords and form in which they battle was quite impressive. I`m not saying Sora can`t but it doesn`t change the fact that both brothers got wrecked by Dante.

both brothers are over 2000 years old

Again, age is meaningless.

Which I already agreed to but have not found to be accepting in the regards to your beliefs. It can sometimes be just a number but even that is not an absolute age defines a lot of things.

and they amassed knowledge in that time period, their older, more maturer, more wiser and more knowledgeable as they were trained by Sparda yet they still lost to Dante who wasn`t even at his peak at the time he fought them.

Thus proving how featless and not all that impressive they are!

They have feats and nothing I have stated contradicts this. I could say many of the Organization members are featless just in terms of skill or handling a weapon especially if I were to take out the in-game showcases and showcase the fact that Sora was not the only one to beat them.

You have no proof of that and that is a blank statement,

I have some proof, since many members of the Organization have actual impressive feats, and have much more Hax abilities than the brothers displayed, like Lexaeus, Xaldin, Marluxia, Saix, Axel, etc.

No you do not and although I agree, that is far from true in terms of hax. None of them had time manipulation and none of them were as skilled. I`ve seen all their boss battles in action, you are overhyping a lot about what was originally indicated. Their just more unique to their specific representations and if we are to go by your logic, by feats none of them are on Mundus, Abigail or even the lesser individuals like Agnus, Credo or Doppelganger`s level. Its more than just having hax abilities especially when you lose to someone who isn`t as hax and is more what you call versatile.

Dante would stomp Cloud and Sephiroth like he also did against Vergil, Nero and even himself his own Doppelganger which possessed all of his attributes which would include his skills as well as advancements in swordplay.

I dunno if he would "stomp" Sephiroth, but I can agree that he would beat him.

He would stomp Sephiroth. Seph is not even on Mundus level, not even close especially if we are to go by actual feats and I`m a BIG Sephiroth fan. Him, Exdeath and Kefka are my top three FF villains.

Riku has beaten many of the members of the Organization in Chain of Memories (love that game) and Roxas to a degree as well.... So how is Sora special?

Considering Riku is roughly Sora's equal, and Roxas potentially could have been Sora's equal, it still makes Sora special.

I don`t see how this makes Sora special..... Its like me saying Dante is special because he beat Mundus although Sparda did the same its more of Dante is impressive for accomplishing such a feat and then surpassing it. Dante is special in that regard where he has surpassed his father which many didn`t think was even possible. Riku, Roxas and even the Organization Members fought with one another, Sora is not an exception or exclusive to this whole fact he`s not special by far or by any means. Also Riku and Roxas to me by feats are not even as strong as Dante if all you can refer to is the Organization.

Especially when he receives help from Donald and Goofy not saying their the significant players only that they are the closest players to keeping Sora in play.

He receives minor help from them, Sora is the main combatant in basically every fight.

Not even close. Minor? The point is 95% of the time he receives help from them or even some kind of help from somebody else. They heal him in-combat and they keep him going so he would be able to keep them going the fact is their there to contribute to the overall contribution. Also being the main suppliers of magic can help that certain combatant win a fight which is not as impressive as Dante doing it by his own power as well as will in which he endures through hardships.

Dante does it all on his own most of the time and its not about being more powerful its the fact that Dante owned them like you say the others would, they had much more experience a lot of the enemies Sora faces anyway are adept magic users who fashion their weapons with magic and reality-law breaking, Dante at his core along with his opponents in their components are true swordsmen. Having played and having in my possession KH 2, (seeing KH 2 FM) and having Chain of Memories, I can say with full confidence that Dante would own them as much as Sora did.

No, because as you said the Organization 13 members used magic and Hax abilities, and Dante has never really gone up against opponents like that. The majority of the people he fight rely on brute strength, raw power, and swordsmanship.

What?? Your a phenomenal debater and individual, that I admire but even you @jmarshmallow have to agree that this is the epitome of untrue. Especially if we are to go by your point about feats over statements and assumption which you are conforming to now in this specific conversation. By feats none are as powerful as Mundus and none are even Savior level despite their uniqueness. Their only more unique and that is it. I`ve seen all members in battle from Axel, Saix, Marluxia, Lexaeus, Larxene, Vexen, Xigbar, Zexion, Demyx, Xion, Xaldin to Luxord. None of them would beat Dante not even the most trickiest such as Marluxia, Luxord or even Vexen a lot of them I wouldn`t even say are too far off from Jester, Nevan and even Sanctus who in which Dante toyed with.

The closest that comes to them is Mundus, but he never really displayed hax abilities on the same scale as certain Organization members. So I don't think Dante would be well equipped to handle them.

Wow. Not one and I mean not one is close to Mundus their all insects to Mundus in fact they are small municipals on a calculator. I love them and their AWESOME characters but their only more unique with their abilities they are not even close to Mundus` spectrum. I wouldn`t even say Marluxia is close to Mundus.

But honestly, none of that above really matters. The main point here was that Sora is a VERY skilled swordsman. So to say that Dante is his superior in that aspect is, IMO, ridiculous.

It does matter when it is undeniably true its not significant to the overall debate but it needs to be a factor. Not really especially when you analyze the way he uses his sword in combat a lot of who Sora faces rely on magic and I could only name a few who were an exception but I can agree here as well.

He ultimately would but that isn`t quite the point.

Yes, it is. Sora would wreck Nero, because he is his superior in every regard.

He`s only superior in striking strength and durability as an all-around character in composite strength which includes many more areas like lifting, resisting and outmuscling its a different story especially if we are compare feat for feat.

Nero strength-wise and having efficiency with his sword Red Queen is not too far off from Sora he`s just really lacking in the robust raw magical department which compliments most of Sora`s abilities anyway

Strength wise Nero hasn't done anything comparable to cutting skyscrapers in half, and he really doesn't have all that many impressive skill feats besides keeping up with Dante, which is a circular argument since Dante and Sora are equals in that department anyway.

Nero has crushed the Savior and he`s bigger/denser/stronger/heavier than the Hell-Gates, I would say that is more than skyscraper +. Many already calculate it as being multi-block city level at the least and their calculations are pretty accurate! I looked at Sora`s feat closely of what you deem to be his supreme feat, and I realized that the skyscrapers he cut weren`t even that wide or lengthy, also their size would be unimpressive to the biggest of skyscrapers those buildings weren`t even bigger than the Savior by comparison (I looked at both closely and dimensionally). Nero has lifted and resisted demons far larger than himself on more occasions consistently than what Sora has shown all you can really say for Sora is that his striking is better and even that could be put to the test.

and Dante is more than just a solid opponent if you look less at the mechanics, and more at the variables.

I'm looking at both, and they both suggest that Sora would win due to his far superior speed, superior strength, equal skill, equal if not superior endurance, and equal if not superior durability.

This is strongly unfactual only a comparison cloaked by a statement. I`ve done reevaluations and researches, Dante is more durable, can heal faster and is much faster in sheer speed, not speed (which means everything such as movement, reaction, reflex, coordination, perception, tracking, pacing, thinking, and mobility) their striking strength as well as skill is the only two things that can be equalized IMO.

Dante has no real advantage over Sora, and that's just a fact. The only thing he has is healing factor, and Sora makes up for that with his durability.

What you mean as fact and what I mean as well as see as fact is different my friend :)

Dante has more advantages than what what you were led to believe he has the durability, recovery, physical strength and experienced advantage a lot of what you said for Sora is pure hype with hindsight not honesty. But were getting there, I`m going to showcase the flow of your flaws soon.

Dante in my opinion has faced REAL swordsmen the only standouts for Sora would be Cloud, Squall, Sephiroth and Terra but they don`t quite surpass Vergil they may be super close but not quite there.

And I disagree, specifically for Terra and Sephiroth since they both have been training all of their life, become masters at their respective form of combat, etc.

You see that is the problem. Sora only has a select few, Dante has more than just a handful without having to have his hands in his pockets. Vergil alone has not only mastered his weapon but he has mastered more than just his weapons, ever since his mother Eva died he has been self-training himself and he MEDITATES all around on wielding Yamato. I want to see Sepiroth or Terra do that without having to rely a lot on magic especially Sephiroth. Vergil has his own kind of stance, form and style when wielding Yamato he can also wield Dante`s weapons that`s how good a multitasker and talent he is when it comes to weapons, and he even uses his summoned swords with near-equal efficiency.

IMO, Terra could beat Vergil, and Sephiroth could stand a fair shot. Vergil might win, but it would be a good fight.

That is your opinion but by the facts its different.Terra could doesn`t mean he would or that he is as good especially since even with DT, Vergil doesn`t rely solely on magic as a pure swordsman he has the more truthful edge. Sephiroth would of course because of his raw power not because of his skill or techniques and I agree it would be good. There`s more technicality in the way Vergil wields his respective weapons in his respective universe its like a technical rapper vs a compositional rapper, its all about the craft and technique.

I know you may disagree but putting magic, high-grade weaponry and energized clashing aside, Dante combats and flows in combat within the territory of the nitty-gritty.

You can't just "put aside" main aspects of their fighting style to compare them.

Actually I can since were mostly focusing in on skill which in and out of itself does not require such things. You have to go to the substance of it all and I didn`t put their fighting styles aside I was just making a point about how much they actually factor that into a fight when using their swords.

Just because the enemies Dante fights are more "nitty-gritty," the enemies Sora fights are much more versatile, as they are both skilled and able to use unique abilities as you just admitted.

Which is a strong and viable point in this whole valid argument. They are versatile but that doesn`t mean they are vindicated by skill its more decorative but not as discerning and even if I admitted so it doesn`t change the fact of what I already stated.

So yet again, this proves that Sora and Dante are at LEAST equals when it comes to skill, because while Dante takes down more "swordsman-oriented" type opponents, the enemies that Sora face are in general much more powerful because they posses both skill AND magic/high-grade weaponry/energized-clashing/hax/etc.

Yeah I can see it but Dante just has the more consistently comparable sword for sword combatants but I think we should agree on this one. Also power has nothing to do with skill which we initially debated especially if we are debating characters like Mundus versus Jafar now that would make more sense as Mundus by far showcased more skill than what Jafar has shown in the Aladdin movie and both KH games although in-game matters more, and matters most. The original argument was skill not skill plus this and this that deals more with power instead of technique or code.

I could come to an agreement with this idea being fact but Vergil could match Sora and he is really impressive when it comes to reading movements just like Sephiroth as well as the others but he`s more hardcore.

I don't understand how you could possibly say this though.

I don`t see why not when in terms of just PURE SKILL the two would be closer than you think.

If we were to agree that, skill-wise, Dante and Sora were equals, and Dante has beaten Vergil SEVERAL times, than that would mean that Vergil COULDN'T match Sora.

Not exactly and that is a fallible way to look at things with these many variables. Dante has beaten Vergil several times but Vergil himself has shown the skill to at least being more than capable at stalling and holding his own against Sora especially since we kinda agree on the fact that Vergil is in range with Terra although I believe from a swordmanship perspective he is greater than what Sora has come across which includes Sephiroth, Cloud, Squall, Auron and even XEMNAS by FEATS. You even said that Cloud should be able to stall either Dante or Vergil which means Cloud should be in-league with Sora.

That's just logic mate!

I agree it is and it is also truth.

my point is that if Dante were to have the Keyblade or atleast a Keyblade he would be able to do things Sora probably wouldn`t be able to do or comprehend, he would wonder how did he do that and I could see Sora`s expression amounting to that very fact.

I completely disagree, as there is no evidence supporting that fact. However, it's a moot point, as it's just speculation and holds no real weight here, especially considering that it's been reasonably established that Sora and Dante are equals when it comes to skill.

There actually is especially since every weapon he acquires he consistently masters in seconds. Also I don`t see why a Keyblade wouldn`t find Dante suitable to becoming its wielder and Dante is more inventive, creative, accurate and overall surprising when it comes to wielding weapons there are things Sora probably hasn`t learned that can be done with the Keyblade, however, I see what you are saying I was only making a point about Dante`s prowess also the equals thing is still up for discussion.

I want to see Sora match these!

Yes, I am well aware of how versatile Dante is when it comes to weaponry! His ability to master a weapon is unmatched, I fully agree there.

Definitely.

The only point I was making is that Sora can do the same thing, once again attesting to the fact that they're equals in skill. He just doesn't do it frequently because the Keyblade is the most powerful weapon in the series, and thus doesn't ever need to be replaced really. Why use other weapons when the best one is in his possession?

Which is not even true and the comparisons showcase this! Just because he hasn`t even SHOWN to do it frequently doesn`t mean he can he barely masters anything he only takes a weapon for a brief second and uses it in the gameplay mechanics not even a single cutscene to showcase the credibility of what he has done unlike Dante it actually would tell you by logic that Dante is more skilled and even more crafty than Sora. I could say Rebellion is the most powerful weapon in the DMC universe arguably for Dante as it manifests his physical power it takes the raw physical form of it after-all but that doesn`t mean Dante hasn`t shown to wield and master other weapons especially if we are to talk about skill. I can name a list of characters who can do what Sora has done you can`t quite do the same for Dante in most cases. Its like what you said for Sparda and Dante which actually holds more weight than what you claim here. Dante has surpassed his father by DMC 4 his stats would be above the DMC 1 transformation and the creators confirmed this! Yet that seems very illogical, why would it especially when logic doesn`t always mean having feats?

I know he did but my point still remains as fact. My point is that they can match and go toe to toe with Sora

Except it's not a fact, because they can't match Sora. If they could, he wouldn't have beaten them. Go "toe-to-toe" with him, yes. But not match him.

Actually it is! By feats they have shown that they are atleast near or closely on par with him in more areas than one and match doesn`t mean to be an equal it also can mean to be a contender in a contest. Which is why I said toe-toe and neither of these two match Dante in feats which says a lot. Roxas actually got the better of Sora also which I will later get to below.

Now, Roxas could have been his equal, but he hadn't reached his full potential yet.

It doesn`t matter the fact of the matter is he was VERY close to Sora and even if you look at the cutscene after they fought it looks like Roxas overpowered him a bit. Sora had to be witty and he outsmarted Roxas that`s why he got the upper hand but the battle tells a different story and by feats Roxas wouldn`t even be on Dante`s level. And you have to remember its not like this took place in KH 1 or prior it took place in KH 2 where Sora was at his strongest it led to his inevitable encounter with Xemnas and Xemnas shouldn`t even be brought up when I think about it now because Sora needed Riku`s help to face him.

Riku could have been his equal, if not superior, but his heart isn't as strong as Sora's and is too easily swayed by Darkness.

All speculation and Riku is my favorite KH character (arguably) or the closest to being my favorite. By feats we can`t even say he would be his superior even with darkness or without it although Sora needed his help when fighting Xemnas the point is if we are to go that route those two wouldn`t even be Dante`s superiors.

but I even wouldn`t consider them to be that skilled or closely in skill to Nelo Angelo.

I would, considering (as you point out in your next point) Sora is vastly more powerful and, IMO, skilled, so being beat by Sora isn't a bad feat whatsoever.

That is not SKILL, not at all, not in the slightest. That is an argument of power, ability and strength not skill also it would be an inconsistent feat for Sora if we are to say he is Dante`s equal in skill or superior and even if Dante has the overall better resume when it comes to fighting skilled swordsman.

Your argument probably is but Sora is vastly more powerful,

Of course.

As predicted.

I`m not denying that but in skill its a different story.

Again, by this point we've basically established that Sora is Dante's equal in skill, so all of this is moot anyway.

In a way I can see it from your view thus agree but its not adding up. I can barely list characters that Sora faced that were legitimately skilled were only debating all-rounding mechanics which has nothing to do with skill.

He does and I`ve seen them but it does not mean the other characters are featless thus not creditless Baul and Modeus both were the embodiment of the statements that described them

So you say, but as I detailed above, there's no real proof to support that IMO.

and they both had ongoing feats also Nelo alone is on par with Terra so it only adds to my point about Dante`s consistency.

Terra is Vergil's equal if not superior IMO, so Nelo being on par with Terra doesn't really strike me as correct.

I disagree with this claim. Terra is close but still not quite there as I said before as an overall all-rounder then yes I would be inclined to agree but not in skill and I really don`t see Terra as being his superior also I was so referring to overall like you said about Terra.

But again, even if you're correct, that only yet again points to them being equals in skill, which is a point I think has been firmly established.

Not true. It doesn`t change the fact that Dante has faced more people who are skilled especially in that department and the fact he has more range speaks volumes. Like I said the ones that standout for Sora are Sephiroth and Terra, and I can easily make an argument for why those two alone are not quite on Vergil`s level, two of whom rely HEAVILY on magic while the other does not. Dante has faced real swordsman like Vergil, Baul, Modeus, Nero (who has faced very skilled and impressive swordsman such as Credo on his own terms), Doppelganger (himself in every aspect), Lucia and etc. Squall, Cloud, Captain Hook, Riku, Roxas, don`t quite do it especially since I can easily argue for Vergil being far more skilled than Sephiroth who is a key standout and I have already.

I can agree here but like I said its about the testing of the characters and everything that surround them.

If you can agree that they're equally skilled, then you can pretty much ignore everything I've written above lol, because that entire first part of our debate is almost entirely regarding skill.

So not true... I have KH 1, KH 2 and Chain of Memories, Sora has been knocked out as well as knocked down by the Nobodies in Twilight Town

When was this?

Many times actually if you are to look back. Here are some examples overall of Sora being overwhelmed or at least more than just a bit fatigued.

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3:56 and onward

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And this happens BEFORE Sora goes to take on Xemnas this makes him look very inconsistent also add in the fact he had help from Riku.

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Sora despite what you have said earlier has been bested by him in a pure sword battle and he collapsed also Leon is not even close to Vergil just making a point.

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Even after beating Ansem and having Goofy as well as Donald`s help he still couldn`t even push the KH door close in cutscene.He needed help from Riku and even then he had trouble outside of gameplay which ultimately is the most important aspect. He has trouble on a pure physical level which is different than stats and physicals. Dante beats him all-around in strength this should now be fact and Sora, Donald and Goofy were worried about the Heartless even after the fact of beating Ansem the most powerful boss in-game at that point. I beaten him myself many times and recently once again for kicks. He alone is nowhere near Mundus and Sora needed Mickey`s help to seal the door with his Keyblade, hmm.

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10:50 - 11:20

If Sora really was MFTL he would of been able to dodge that ray of energy Xemnas fired at him and notice how when he reacts to the lasers around him he is merely blocking not blocking AND reacting which Dante can do within combat. He needed Riku`s help to block all those omni-directional lasers. He couldn`t even do it on his own unlike Dante who can! This proves that Sora can`t even take Xemnas without Riku`s help and Sora was completely in Xemnas` hands at that point if Riku wasn`t there he would of died so no his durability is nowhere near Dante`s also if he can`t tank that energy drainer than how can he tanked being impaled when he has never shown it in cutscenes especially when he has Donald and Goofy to heal him throughout all of his battles or most of them and he doesn`t have Cure in this match either???

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Also if we are to compare this with the many times that Dante has had his complete soul energy ripped from him, Sora wouldn`t look good on the consistent side of things you can have feats but its even BETTER, BIGGER AND GREATER to have consistent ones!

and King Mickey had to save him also in what way is it shown that Sora messing around?

And when was this? If you mean King Mickey showing up when you die in the game, that's just gameplay.. There's no actual canon cutscene suggesting he ever comes in to help Sora at any point in the game.

As I have shown above, King Mickey saved Sora`s life TWICE IN-CUTSCENE and even in-game Sora requires his assistance, when does Dante need any real help? He had help a couple of times from Vergil and Trish (but not by much) and you are sadly mistaken as well about Sora never needing help from King Mickey or in general especially in-cutscene.

I played and beat Sephiroth it never said nor showed any element in which Sora was holding back I would find it to be the contrary because Sora knew how dangerous Sephiroth was and that he wanted the Keyblade yet he had to give it his all to face and defeat him.

After the fight, Sora (who doesn't look hurt, tired, exhausted, or fatigued in the slightest) just responds "How'd you like that?"

So what about all those other times he got pummeled by Roxas, The Nobodies, Xemnas and etc? By feats Roxas should not even be on Sephiroth`s level or plateau also in comparison, Xemnas is a much harder boss or hax one so...... Also by comparison Dante has played around MANY MORE times than Sora has and you can`t even say Sora is even legit. Also how does that indicate anything? He`s just saying that to get back at Sephiroth cause Sora was hostile in the beginning that doesn`t mean he was playing with him even in their first fight he seemed serious. This fight you shown me is the equivalent of Dante beating Vergil at the end of DMC 3. And even this showcasing of Dante playing around is better than what you showed me with Sora and Sephiorth.

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Come on, get up! You can do better than that! And he even seemed disappointed the tonality of his voice more than hints it.

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That pretty much DEFINES just messing around.

No these instances from Dante define the definition of messing around and having fun, too many times has he put a leash on his abilities..

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So again, when has Sora actually held back from going all out?

Dante fighting Nero, The Savior, all the other demons and fighting TDE is messing around, that is the definition of messing around having fun, doing it like it is casual and then cheering because you are winning.

As does what I showed above.

Not at all, Sora was not really messing around especially when I compare it to what Dante has done.

That is extremely false.

It isn't though.

It is and I`ve just proven it.

By your logic he didn`t beat the other bosses without fatiguing cause

He wasn't fatigued with the other bosses, that's the point.

He was and he`s been knocked out by less! Your overrating and overestimating Sora a little too much here... Also I can`t even think of a time Dante was truly fatigued, panting does not mean you are fatigued neither does being knocked out which has happened to Sora on more than one occasion. Also I would be even more correct if we are to look at it this way, why would Sora even be fatigued or have marks when he has his teammates healing him every second?

I don`t remember him fatiguing or tiring out only being a bit overwhelmed

The only fight where he displayed any sort of fatigue is after battling Xemnas, and even them him and Riku were able to fight an entire LEGION of Nobodies.

Not true, as I have proven above and that is not even impressive. I wouldn`t even put Nobodies on the same level as lower class demons in DMC. Also he received Riku`s help which doesn`t help your argument, Dante doesn`t need help.

Sora doesn't get fatigued easily, same as Dante.

But you said that Sora can outlast him when I have shown he has more showings that prove that to be false against lesser enemies also Dante doesn`t really get fatigued even when I think about his fights with Vergil, Mundus, and Arkham he`s gotten back up quicker also most times he just panting and that`s it the only real time he was knocked out is when he fought Vergil and that only made him stronger also in the anime he even later admits to Patty that he was only sleeping and messing around with Sid, in terms of Nero its the same thing and Dante even tanks more damage in the long run as well as long term. Sora is not that impressive especially how the only argument is that his enemies are more powerful which is false. I will get to that soon as well and he`s never been impaled or endured through Dante`s level of suffering, never!

and even then that doesn`t prove he hasn`t given it his all like

He never gives it his all, and that's a fact.

Yes he does and I have proven it as you soon will see.

I said he`s been overpowered and distressed by the Nobodies,

Prove it.

Already did and there are more instances when the hint of danger is there.

he gave it his all against Ansem,

Prove it.

Already did and even after that he couldn`t close KH on his own in-cutscene also he was nervous about the weak Heartless that doesn`t even compare to Mundus` generals or even Nightmare.

Riku and

Prove it.

Already did.

even Cerberus.

Prove it.

Already did and Dante has fought more powerful versions of Cerberus in his universe. He threw Cerberus across the room and that Cerberus is as large as Sora`s also he fought another who can transport its enemies to complete alternative universes or dimensions and Dante defeated it with ease.

Normally I wouldn't be so obstinate about that sorta thing, but the fact of the matter is Sora will NOT be fatigued in this fight. He can hold at as long as Dante can, if not longer.

Yes he will, I have already proven it he`s shown this in-cutscene so even if you show it in-game it wouldn`t matter cause that`s not consistent nor concrete for the foundation of information we call facts. Also Dante hasn`t really ever been fatigued he only pants and even then he is playing casually while Sora gets knocked out, blitzed and he seems overwhelmed by the smallest of things. Also I can even say that he has Donald, Goofy or any other Party member to heal him with Cure which he does not have here and he can heal himself with all of that already included. When does Dante do these things? Dante`s healing factor is enough to justify why he is in a different league and a more larger one altogether in the comparison to Sora.

And if Dante doesn't give it his all in this fight, he's going to get ANNIHILATED by Sora.

I think you mean if Sora doesn`t give it his all in this fight he will get WRECKED by Dante and Dante is not holding back it says in the OP. Sora can barely take any REAL punishment and even if you are to argue for me being wrong it doesn`t look good on Sora`s part because its not consistent in either KH 1 or KH 2.

Also just because Dante is panting does not mean he is fatigued or severely weakened it just shows his limits and it takes those who are of a certain caliber to exactly match him to be able to show those limits which doesn`t even happen commonly

I don't believe I said he was severely weakened, only that he had reached his limits.

Even when he collapsed against Vergil he only got stronger through his demonic blood. Sora has reached his limits and been overcome by many such as Roxas. Roxas isn`t even MFTL, I would argue and it seemed like he was blitzing Sora all over the place every other fight Dante had he was playing around from the Savior, Nero, Berial, Echidna, Bael, Abigail, Despair and much more. Sora couldn`t even handle a couple of Nobodies even with DONALD AND GOOFY this is in-cutscene in KH 2. Despite all of his experience dealing with far superior enemies in KH 1 and having been put into slumber or a sleeping type of stasis. Also Dante made his weak enemies such as the Hell Prides look like little toys when playing skateboard with them in-cutscene within DMC 3 which would be his first game.

And that point is that Sora is capable of reaching those limits, and exceeding them.

Not at all, as I have already explained also I don`t see Sora handling Dante and Vergil, when he couldn`t even handle Roxas... Also he doesn`t even have magic in this scenario which gets him by most of the time neither does he have Donald and Goofy.

The same could be said about many of Sora`s feats but I don`t want to nitpick too much.

If you think I'm holding a double standard, please, point it out. Because most of Sora's feats are quantifable, as they're against opponents with a pretty defined power-level.

No they are not as I explained above you have been overrating a lot of his feats and saying they didn`t happen when I posted instances of the many times they happened also Sora dodging ethereal beams can be argued as being quantifiable also he doesn`t really react and combat he just blocks them on pure reflex, that`s it. And those skyscrapers didn`t even look that big he cut six, but how big were those skyscrapers in the first place?

Also we don`t need to know we can make calculations

Calculations are assumptions unless they have significant amount of logic and actual significant numbers behind them, and the Savior feat just doesn't have that.

That is true but in this case it is not. There actually is a lot of evidence and a lot of logic to quantify the Savior there`s even an official DMC height chart that gives the official numbers for the sizes of these characters.

http://www.capcom-fc.com/devil4column/lib/images/pic/wp20080229_5l.jpg

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-general/dantedmc-respect-thread-129203/3

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=17453

and the Savior was much larger than the Hell Gates

Siz =/= weight, especially considering it was a demonic statue, and thus it's insides could be hollow/not as heavy/etc.

What does that have to do with anything? You have to remember the fact that it was powered by Sparda and Nero`s energies. It being able to crack stone, steel, iron and cause shockwaves just goes to show how tough it was.

It's just unquantifiable, simple as that.

I could say the same about Sora, do you even know which type of skyscrapers he cut into pieces? There are many types and sizes of skyscrapers also if you look at Sora`s size compared to them and Dante`s size compared to the Savior you will notice that the Savior is far larger than those buildings that Sora cut down.

also it seems like double standard considering the Lion King feat.

Oh no mate, I didn't mean for it to come across as a double standard at all. Apologies if it did.

No its fine, I thought it was because the Groundshaker cannot really be qunatified either and Sora has had times where he can barely push or lift something even in-cutscene.

The point I was making is that if you want to use an unquantifiable lifting feat to define Dante's strength, then I have an equally impressive lifting feat (if not more so) for Sora. And since lifting feats don't really matter all that much in a fight, it really doesn't matter in the first place. So the point is as far as lifting strength goes they're at LEAST equal.

But its not I`ve posted calculations and we can even gauge its size based off of Dante`s height there`s even a height chart unlike Sora`s supposed feat. The Savior also is larger, more durable and denser than all six buildings that Sora was able to cut through and I agree it does not matter much but we have to remember Dante`s sword can still pierce through the Savior and he`s physically stronger which is my point also he is a better resistor also I have to disagree with that assumption although it doesn`t matter anyway.

But Sora still has the MASSIVE edge in striking feats, which are way more important.

I strongly disagree those skyscrapers weren`t as large as the Savior nor as dense and they weren`t as destructive if Sora even failed to cut through them in his command. Also Rebellion is confirmed in the DMC lore as being the physical manifestation of Dante`s power so I don`t find it hard to believe that Dante could overpower that fact with sheer power alone and he was able to overpower Nero`s Devil Bringer. Here are the feats. Dante also was assulted by Abigail who was considered a close contender in power to Mundus he could rule the earth and demon realms with his power, he was city level and he couldn`t even hurt Dante. Dante overpowered him in one strike, I find that to be far more impressive. He crushed a far larger skyscraper than all of Sora`s six and he did it with one pounce also Trish plus Lady`s firepower missile could not even scratch him yet Dante one-shots him.

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Also there are calculations and judgements for feats as well as evidenced here although this video speaks for itself.

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=843438

Plus, you asked for a lifting feat for Sora!

He barely has any lifting feats especially if you were to compare them with what Dante. has managed to do.

And I would like to see the so called class 10s who can do that feat exactly the way Dante did it.

What, crack a stone? Because that's what I was talking about, as you tried to use it as a feat to display the Savior's strength.

I was more so talking about Dante actually lifting the Savior`s fist which has shown to crack irregular stone on multiple occasions.

If that's what you're talking about, I can do you even better.

I don`t see how these feats from Spiderman even apply especially since Abigail casually wqas playing around and landed ona building with MINIMAL FORCE and it collapsed entirely also that building was much larger than what Spiderman destroyed also Dante overpowered Abigail so.... Also the Savior feat is multi-block and he is much larger than the Hell Gates so this feat from Spidey wouldn`t be that impressive especially since consistency in comics usually don`t go together does Spiderman do this on the regular?

Also that feat isn`t even on the same level! That building wasn`t even as big or as dense as the Savior was.

Gallery

Spider-Man, who is usually classified as no more than a Class 10, destroys a building casually.

FALSE! He was hitting weak spots within the building itself and it also looked worn out already another thing is the building size wasn`t all that great either. I can show you far better feats from across all mediums of characters destroying cities so that comparison is irrelevant and doesn`t prove anything IMO. I don`t see Spiderman holding back a punch from the Savior either since he didn`t even lift the building he only struck it from the insides which the Savior would be able to do with no problem!

Dante also stomped the Nefasturris a skyscraper demon he had no problem in taking it down

The Nefasturris is a VERY small portion of a skyscraper, it's not like he took down the whole skyscraper. Still doesn't even come CLOSE to cutting six in one swipe.

It took over the whole building its tangible form only appeared that way but that is besides the point and that skyscraper is MUCH bigger than all the ones Sora cut, I already showcased why the Savior and Abigail are multi-city block +. Dante tanked all of their attacks and he was casual about it also.

and he has broken through Mundus` rocks that he conjured up as easily as Sora cut up those skyscrapers

SIX skyscrapers in ONE swipe >>>>>>>> a couple of rocks.

Dante outmatching Abigail and the Savior >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sora`s overrated feat.

also it shouldn`t even be the highest standard considering I could say Dante and Kratos with enough force could do the exact same thing

Total assumption, given that Dante has never displayed any strength feats suggesting that, and therefore can't be used in this debate.

No it isn`t actually. Dante has cut far larger and denser substances. Also those buildings weren`t even that big it doesn`t say which type of skyscraper, the one Abigail busted was longer, lengthier and heavier. I think your overrating Sora by a lot when it comes to that feat...

As for Kratos, I dunno, maybe he could, maybe he couldn't. Not the point though, we're arguing about Dante.

I think he could pretty easily especially considering his strength and his striking power isn`t too bad. I know but I mentioned Kratos because what Sora did wasn`t even that impressive like how you brought up Spiderman despite the fact that I was talking about something else and what Spiderman did wasn`t even compatible to what Dante did let alone comparable..

Its more of a guesstimation/assumption than anything but due to his light gauntlets he can create shockwaves, has thunderclaps, and he can crush through enchanted stone with ease also as confirmed by the creators not me his gauntlets contained the concentrated power of a small supernova so that says a lot right there!

Hm, that's right. I forgot about that.

This fact just goes to show underrated Dante truly is.

Still, as impressive as a feat as that is, Hercules was throwing Titans into space, so I would say that Hercules >> Beowulf.

How is that comparable? One is a striking feat and the other a lifting one as you said with the Savior, no offense but it seems a bit like double standard again. Hercules isn`t even that fast or nimble as Sora, so of course Sora is going to overpower him and by feats the Savior is much stronger than Hercules striking-wise. I would say Beowulf`s supernova raw power is >>>> Hercules throwing Titans into space especially since we are talking about durability we don`t see Sora being thrown around or smashed too much especially in-cutscene.

Not that it really matters, and Dante used weapons/abilities to take down Beowulf, not actual strength. The same could be said about Sora vs. Hercules though, so it's a moot point really.

Actually it is not. The difference is Dante even at that point in the game which is early, did not use a lot of weaponry he used pure strength to challenge Beowulf and can tank his blows even in the cutscenes without effort unlike Sora which is in-game where a lot of the mechanics come into play especially the facts as you mentioned Sora beating Hercules with his abilities and his SPEED which is a big factor. Dante dodges Beowulf`s light-speed attacks and he tanked supernova level damage without breaking a sweat unlike Sora all we can go by is the fact that Hercules threw the Titans into space within the movie and they weren`t all that impressive especially if you are to compare them to the Savior who can accomplish more damage and he`s not the strongest of Dante`s enemies.

Oh, and by the way, to counter another point you made, Hercules even says that he wasn't holding anything back against Sora.

I know that but the point is it was a sparring match and Sora easily has the edge in speed. Hercules hasn`t been known to be a fast character most of the time and Sora has the raw magic to counter him it has nothing to do with raw physical battle of the muscles or Sora just being stronger he`s just more hax, that`s it. Also he was throwing barrels at Hercules which would easily cause him to become void or dizzy unlike Beowulf where you would need a lot of firepower to harm and subdue him. Even on both`s hardest modegame-wise, Beowulf is STILL far greater and HARDER to put down.

I would say so considering the Savior is much more densely durable than a typical skyscraper or just building its demonic stone infused with Sparda`s power and Dante has pierced through it.

Again, unquantifiable!

Not by evidence as evaluated above. I would say information versus information, logic vs logic, calculation vs calculation and feat vs feat. Dante`s Savior feat is much more quantifiable and credible to every degree unlike Sora`s Groundshaker feat which has no-basis to fall back on other than Sora being able to do an in-game command which contradict what happens in the cutscenes on a consistent basis but I digress.

I can understand but its not like Dante wouldn`t be able to cut through skyscrapers when he`s damaged and manged to pierce through more powerhouse structures.

I'm sorry mate, but that yet again is NOTHING but PURE SPECULATION. You're assuming that Dante can replicate the feat, but he has done NOTHING akin to cutting ONE skyscraper in half, let alone SIX.

Actually like I have explained above it is not. He has done way more than just that on a far wider range than Sora. He has stomped Abigail and withstood his attacks even though he can break a skyscraper in one single step and that skyscraper was BIGGER than all of the six that Sora cut through. Abigail barely put any effort also and Dante`s Savior feat actually is greater another thing is Sora is not getting through Rebellion especially since its a manifestation of Dante`s power all-around including his will as confirmed in the Lore.

Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Combat Adjudicator — Rebellion: "I am the combat adjudicator. Only a technique imbued with magic essence can move me."

↑Devil May Cry 2, Weapon File — Rebellion: "A standard sword for Dante."

↑Devil May Cry 4, Dante's Arms File — Rebellion: "A memento given to Dante by his father, this large magical blade is the physical manifestation of Dante’s power."

↑Devil May Cry 3, Code: 1 — Dante, Dante's Weapons — Rebellion: "A keepsake sword from his father. Its name means "resistance."

↑Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Devil Arms File — Rebellion: "A keepsake sword from Dante's father. This magic blade's true power hasn't fully awakened."

↑Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Devil Arms File — Rebellion: "A keepsake sword from Dante's father. Dante's blood has awakened the blade's true power."

↑ ^7.07.1 This attack can also be initiated using Stinger, by releasing the Left Analog Stick and pressing .

I don`t see how its so super impressive when I can name many characters doing something of greater degree.

It's impressive because it's a more impressive strength feat than anything Dante has done.

It is not impressive for both reasons. Dante has done far greater and he has done much more which goes back to his consistency in terms of the feats. His feats dealing with Abigail, Savior and etc are far above skyscraper level.

Dante>>Sora>>>>Nero is more correct.

Incorrect, as Sora outclasses Dante in every aspect besides healing factor, skill, and arguably durability. (Skill they're equal, and durability is arguable, but Sora is at the very LEAST as durable as Dante, if not more so.)

No he does not. Especially if we are to judge them feat by feat, every single one. Dante outclasses Sora easily in durability, healing, experience, and the only one I could agree to is skill even then Dante`s resume is better. He is not as durable as Dante his cutscenes are not consistent, he has never been impaled and the things Dante tanks would kill him instantly. He also gets healed by other Party Members in-game carrying into the cutscenes that proceed them.

And I don`t see how Dante wouldn`t be able to replicate that when he has sliced through skyscraper level structures such as the Hell Gates.

Because Hell Gates aren't as thick as skyscrapers, nor as dense, nor as large, and Sora cut thorugh SIX in one swipe, not just one.

I can actually prove why they are all-around more superior to normal earth materials that they themselves are not made of. Here is the evidence that debunks everything you have stated.

1. Even all elements in the DMC universe have been confirmed to being superior to their earthly versions which means the lightning, fire, ice, light and everything else Dante tanked is far greater than the original earthly compositions.

2. It says so even with the Frost whose ice is confirmed in the Lore as being below absolute zero temperatures and Ifrit is hot enough to defeat their ice as also confirmed in the Lore. Ifrit is confirmed to being hotter than Lava as well. Hellfire is hotter than lava and I would even say Berial is hotter than the sun considering he is not only the ruler of the Fire Hell realm but in the deeper areas of the Underworld lies the much more powerful variations of demons. This also showcases that the Hell Gates aren`t normal stone and even Arkham further confirms this in DMC 3 about the stone Dante crushes and the other materials in the tower when he was playing as Jester. So the Hell Gates are thicker, more durable and more complicated than regular buildings which would include skyscrapers. Also Agnus was the one to build the other Hell Gates with the same material and data from the original... He utilized a lot of alchemy and magic in his experiments he`s like an Orochimaru in DMC.

3. Devil May Cry, Enemy File — Frost: "They are soldiers created by the Dark Emperor to take control of the surface. Enveloped in cold air they are the elites of their kind. Their quickness is a definite advantage in cornering their prey."

↑Devil May Cry, Enemy File — Frost: "The cold honed claws are none other than an ice blade. The air around the blades is below absolute zero temperature and the victims who are slashed will die without feeling any pain."

↑Devil May Cry, Enemy File — Frost: "The claws will become icicles that shoot out as deadly projectiles. To dodge after they’ve been fired is almost impossible. Anticipate their movements to avoid being shot."

↑Devil May Cry, Enemy File — Frost: "It’s unwise to think you’re safe just because you’ve managed to sneak behind the enemy. Remember that their claws don’t always fire forward."

↑Devil May Cry 4, Lesser Demons File — Frost: "An elite demon sired by the emperor of demon-kind, Frosts are all-purpose soldiers used in a variety of situations. Frosts encase themselves in ice to recover their strength, but quickly destroying their icy cocoon will end this process."

↑Devil May Cry, Enemy File — Frost: "If enough damage is inflicted, their frozen body parts will shatter. Keep on damaging and stop them from regenerating their lost parts."

↑Devil May Cry, Enemy File — Frost: "They will try to regenerate their shattered body parts by freezing atmosphere. Destroy the ice formations as quickly as possible."

↑Devil May Cry, Enemy File — Frost: "Although impervious even to volcanic fire, the frosts are weak to higher realms of incendiary. Use the hellfire of Ifrit to counter them."

↑Devil May Cry, Enemy File — Frost: "They will release their intense coldness using the ground to channel the coldness. Listen carefully for the freezing sound of the ground and dodge to the sides."

↑Devil May Cry, Enemy File — Frost: "They will freeze the moisture in the atmosphere with their radiating coldness and transform it into many sharp ice spears. You should be able to sense this attack. Otherwise, you’ll fall victim to their ice spears."

↑Devil May Cry, Enemy File — Frost: "They can disperse their body at molecular levels that allow them to travel through air. However, they can only travel in straight directions. Anticipating where they will appear may help you in winning the battle."

Not true, how can you say that? The Hell Gates aren`t normal forms of stone they are demonically enhanced and they act as channels for demons to enter in and out

And thus it isn't so much a strength feat as it is a magic feat, because we don't know what "form of stone" they're made of, or if the magic enhances its durability, etc., thus making it YET AGAIN an unquantifiable feat.

As I have already proven this is untrue. Also the one Hell Gate that Dante struck down in Fortuna with Yamato is skyscraper level and Agnus who was experimenting with Alchemy created the other lesser Hell Gates who aren`t that small in comparison. So yes they are not normal Hell Gates every DMC variation is much more powerful than its original counterpart as I have confirmed. Also this is yet another double standard for Sora in which there are no calculations for his striking feat and skyscrapers vary in size, the ones Sora cut weren`t even that large compared to the much larger ones and especially if you are to scale his size with those skyscrapers which I have done.

also that is speculation as much as it is assumption

Neon, you know I love Dante. But a majority of YOUR argument has been speculation.

Actually you have it backwards, I really adore and have the same level of respect for Sora but by all your arguments above it is speculation, assumption, out of context overrating and a lot more, but I still respect your opinion :)

I throw a skill feat at you, and you respond by saying that Dante could do the same thing because his father did it. That's speculation.

Its not really about skill when its lasting long in a fight that`s ENDURANCE and WILLPOWER not skill even lesser skilled characters can do what Sora did. Inuyasha being one of them if I am to really dig into the meat of his feats again and we both know that he doesn`t even come close to Dante. Its speculation to assume that Sora is even MFTL when Riku helped him, he can barely react to Xemnas ` regular barrage of several lasers he merely blocks or guards against them he doesn`t react instantly so there seems to be overrating on Sora`s part and if we are to assume he is MFTL then we would have to assume he is even faster than Roxas who blitzed and outdid him despite Sora`s accomplishments in the past with fighting stronger enemies and that means.... Roxas would be MFTL..... And by feats we both know that is not true there is no basis for it unlike Dante. Dante is confirmed consistently to being Sparda`s superior even Sparda`s apprentices who would know quite well and who know him more than Dante obviously, said Dante is up to par if not better than Sparda and their fight was all about skill as well as endurance. So I don`t see why Dante wouldn`t be able to do what Sora did especially since Rebellion is the manifestation of his willpower that feat had nothing to do with skill whatsoever if we are to go back and analyze the feat as I remember playing it anyway. Sora wouldn`t look good its overrating a simple feat of destroying fodder by moving back and forth aerially.

I throw a strength feat at you, and you respond by saying that Dante could do the same, even though NONE of Dante's feats compare to cutting through SIX skyscrapers in ONE swipe.

I already addressed this. Dante has more feats and the skyscrapers Sora sliced through weren`t EVEN THAT BIG. Also, Dante could easily dodge the majority of Sora`s attacks anyway.

So, and I mean no disrespect by this, but I'm going to skip over the strength argument until you can provide a feat equivalent to the one I mentioned above. And not just an argument saying "Dante should be able to do that too." I mean actual proof showing something as impressive as the skyscraper feat.

I understand where you are coming from but I think we should really skip over it. I have shown more than enough proof and the feat isn`t even that great when we look at the context your merely looking at the mechanics not the variables as I said before. Also I want to post his fight with Nero when he resisted his Devil Bringer arm and applied enough force to moving Nero this feat alone is comparable. The Devil Bringer arm has thrown much larger entities around and destroyed the Savior who is bigger than all of the six skyscrapers Sora cut through.

If you cannot, that's fine, but we have to give Sora the edge in strength.

I have already have and you overrated that feat way too much beyond your own understanding. Dante is stronger in striking, lifting and resisting which Rebellion means, also being a representation of his overall being as well as power which is why Sparda gave it to him. Also even if you were correct Dante can easily tank Sora`s hits especially since he tanked attacks that are far greater as well as more destructive from the Savior and Abigail.

So to sum up you're remaining strength arguments:

Lifting feats aren't that relevant in a fight, it's about striking, and Sora's striking feats are just better. And even if they were important, Sora's feat with the Groundshaker is equal to any lifting feat Dante has.

They aren`t but when we are talking about resisting then its all whole different ball-game. Dante has not only more striking feats but better ones with different weapons also the feat you showcased for Sora wasn`t even that special in the first place. No it is not, Dante by DMC 3 even threw Cerberus across the room and he`s on the same level as the Groundshaker another important factor is that its been established that the Savior is bigger, denser and stronger than the Groundshaker so Sora rivals Dante in no way.

The skyscraper demon only made up a VERY small portion of a skyscraper, and thus isn't as impressive as Sora's feat.

It doesn`t matter since Dante already tanks attacks going passed that range such as from Abigail and the Savior also I like I already confirmed Sora`s feat isn`t all that impressive that you are making it out to be.

The Hell Gate feat isn't as impressive because they aren't as big as skyscrapers, we don't know how durable they are so its unquantiable, and Sora cut SIX in one swipe, whereas Dante only did one.

The final one was and the others aren`t too far off also it doesn`t mean much, since what Sora cut was not even as big as the larger skyscrapers would be their like standard buildings and Abigail crushed one which was a REAL skyscraper for its standard. Of course because they weren`t lined up for him but I wouldn`t be surprised if he can especially since he`s more handy when it comes to using Rebellion. Also with that logic I can say the skyscrapers Sora cut are unquantifiable because of scale, size and type, and they were not even that big in the first place...

So yeah, I'm done with strength for now, because we're going in circles and none of Dante's striking feats are comparable to the skyscraper one. Moving on!

I agree and like I said you are overrating that feat WAY too much as I have already explained above and previously Dante not only has more legit striking feats but he is all around a much stronger character so I agree we should move on from this.

They have never impaled him and there is no comparison here...

Yes they have, unless you're suggesting that NO boss ever hit Sora. Which would yet again only prove my point that he's never going all out.

This argument does not make sense to me. Due to the fact that in both cutscene and in-game Sora has been knocked out by swords, Leon being a big example and of course it wouldn`t show when his teammates are healing another thing is that is a big assumption on your apart to assume he has ever been impaled especially his feats don`t constitute or support it, its a theory more than anything and a very unrealistic one. Sora has a lot of guard abilities which he uses a lot of the times within his boss battles and a lot of his battles aren`t even that quick so..... Also I`ve proven the that Sora does go all out and he`s been bested by lesser enemies. The fact that he doesn`t show it in your eyes just means he`s stationary and expressionless like Raziel from LOK although he even is overwhelmed and falls in exhaustion Sora showcased the same facial expressions you have been expressing this entire debate during Twilight Town yet he fell to his knees and collapsed. So that argument does not work at all.

So either Sora is the rawest character in the world who's never been hit by a boss ever, or he has been hit and thus has durability feats on par with Dante.

Not true and it never will be true, no one implied it either. His durability feats which include blunt damage, trauma and explosive damage from magic don`t come close to Dante in range or feats.

Also you can`t compare the cartoonish violence which happens in-game to that of the comparison to the cutscenes that pretty much almost always happen in Devil May Cry

Um, yes, I can. Kingdom Hearts is cartoony, which only further exemplifies the insane durability that Sora would have, if we compare him to OTHER cartoon characters that almost have like infinite durability.

No you cannot because if it was Rated M than we would see cuts, scars and bruises on Sora. That has nothing to do with durability its the presentation of Sora`s mechanics and it contradicts with the cutscenes which are the most consistently important factor in a video game arguably I would say. Its not like he has Toon Force that is where your argument would work.

... Also their weapons don`t even compare to Yamato, Rebellion, Sparda or Alastor.

I disagree. I think getting hit by the Ethereal Blades, other Keyblades, Neptune's Trident, giant pieces of buildings, reality warpers, GODS etc. would certainly be comparable to some demonic weapons.

They don`t whatsoever. That is nothing compared to getting stabbed in the heart, stomach, being pummeled by a Devil Bringer, tanking fire that is hotter than lava and fire that is hotter than the sun, having a motorcycle explode on you, being cut by reality warping magic, being bitten by a demon empowered by mid-tier reality warping and repelling it without your demonic blood awakening (DMC manga), being crushed, soul ripped, enduring through temperatures that are below zero, being hit by meteorites and falling down to earth level which alone outmatches a lot of Sora`s feats or being impaled by a demon who has done city level damage with ease.... None of those gods are on Mundus level and the things you mentioned aren`t even on the level of what you see with Abigail to say the least.

In a sense he did, in a sense he did not, he just showcased more realities to it while Mundus himself actually quite had great detail and the difference is Mundus did not only create pure life he can make as many without any limitations, he has created stars for his dimension when fighting Dante and he can create demons who ON THEIR OWN create dimensions as evidenced with the Nightmare. Also he ruled on a universal scale its confirmed in the manga the Underworld is the other half of the universe and he ruled it....

Again, making life isn't really useful in combat considering he never showed able to do it instantly.

What? Mundus even confirmed he could make life without limit! He created life in the form of Trish and his Generals that fought Dante. Also this is again a double standard..... Jafar did not show planet creation in either KH games only in his movie, original and official appearance also he NEVER showcased that power in combat. Also Mundus created dragons in his second fight with Dante at the volcano.

Second, creating a pocket dimension isn't anything special anyway, since people like Green Lantern can do it.

Green Lantern, The Darkness, Spawn, Aizen and etc can do it but that has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the way Mundus does it. Especially if you are to count all of his other abilities to create stuff to a certain effect. Mundus created one with ease WITHOUT RESOURCES OR ANY OTHER ENERGY SOURCE AND MANIPULATION OF MATTER which many of these characters use! I put so much emphasis because many don`t understand how powerful Mundus was being the Devil of the DMC universe. Mundus` pocket dimension was pretty big also and it had different realms within it as well as different special effects if you will.

Third Nightmare rules a dimension, but he didn't create it.

He rules one and created it. Nightmare never had one previously there was never a Nightmare demon of any kind in the DMC universe until Mundus created it and its dimension has a portal which couldn`t of been created alone. Mundus bestowed his dimension creating powers upon the Nightmare demon to also invade Dante`s mind and this would make logical sense or commonsense especially since all of his Generals have their own unique power-sets and he created ALL OF THEM.

And fourth, RULING on a universal scale isn't equal to being universal in power.

Yes this is true and I have debated this fact with many others but the fact remains that the two can be interchangeable which in Mundus` case would be the case. Also especially since he killed the previous king, and operates all the realms which is why he moves from his three-eye form to his statue form and he knows what takes place in all of the demon world.

When?

Being able to fight Riku and Sora at the same time, both of which are FAR Dante's superior in speed, makes him FAR faster than Mundus.

Not even close as I have already debunked and how does that make him faster than Mundus exactly? Isn`t that like a circular argument? His movement speed isn`t even as impressive in combat or in-cutscene and he fights them one on one as well with his superior raw power. There are so many variables that you are not factoring into the equation.

That is true but all of those enemies Dante could beat so it doesn`t really add to anything

This is wrong, because Dante has never beat someone with feats comparable to them.

I already have explained but not to full extent as I will soon in the responses below in regards to Jafar vs. Mundus which is taken out of context completely in so many ways I don`t even know where to start and even Sora`s top enemies are nowhere near Mundus level. Jafar,O13, Ursula, Oogie Boogie, Chernobog, Master Control Program, Maleficent, Ansem, Sephiroth, Phantom and Kurt Zisa (arguably my favorite bosses, the secret ones) don`t even come close to Mundus` feats. Jafar`s one feat isn`t enough and I`ll get into that later also this damages your durability argument for Sora.

and they were Mundus level at best.

This is wrong because Mundus has no feats comparable to them.

Yes he does. Creating a large pocket dimension, summoning lightning, meteorites, dragons, reality warping orbs that block most attacks, creating life with ease, bestowing great power upon many variations of demons who he also created is much greater than what Jafar, Ursula and Oogie Boogie have shown in-game as well as in-cutscene or even lore. Alot of the bosses you mentioned could easily be compared to Rabbi, Mad Hatter, Jester or Abigail and Dante stomped all of them. I`ve versed and beaten all of these bosses also, still remember playing all of them and I have played some recently none of what you stated is true about them being more powerful than Mundus.

Even if we are to compare as much as we now it does not change the fact that Dante has grown too powerful for entities of Mundus` scale examples would be the Despair and Abigail also the Cerberus from DMC Volume 2.

But that doesn't automatically mean that he can beat all of Sora's enemies, who are FAR stronger than Dante's enemies to begin with.

Yes it does considering none of whom you mention by feats are as strong as Mundus you simply stated they are nothing else and Mundus has shown more control with his power as well as better combat feats.

Once again, you're speculating mate!

No I am not actually, I`m telling the complete truth.

That is so far from the truth. It was made up of half the universe as confirmed in the manga it has its own space time continuum and there are many planes in the demon world. That doesn`t mean Hades was as strong or authorial as Mundus was and based on feats, Mundus did WAY more also Hades is more of a schemer than anything else similar to Loki.

Once again, ruling the underworld doesn't automatically make you universal, or else Hades would be universal as well, thus making the point moot.

That is a weak comparison. Mundus did not only rule the Underworld he actually operated it! He also knows what happens all-around it he knew Dante`s every move as well as Trish`s. Hades by feats is not universal which you can actually argue for Mundus as his feats are FAR more better. Also the Underworld in Hercules and KH is not all impressive like the one in DMC. I have the Hercules movie as well, love it but even in his original appearance like Jafar in his original appearance did nothing special with his power and the Undeworld in that universe is nothing compared to what you would see in DMC.

And once again, "based off feats" Mundus would be weaker than Hades because Hades is invincible in his own realm.

Again double standard. Mundus by feats is better also Sora beat Hades in his realm TWICE, so he is not invincible and Mundus is immortal if we are get technical. And Hades was not invincible in his own realm he was not even invincible in the Hercules movie! This hurts your Jafar argument as well because then it would be the other way around as you argued about the planet manipulation which he hasn`t shown in-game in either of his appearances and he is a buffoon when it comes to wielding his magic.

Not really considering he created dragons to fight Dante in the second half of their first fight and he creates demons that are meant for fighting. They can do that but can they can do it like Mundus? Now that is the question. I`ve seen GL, SS, The Darkness and even Zeus do it but Mundus has no limit, he has also created a variety of things and he rules over them. Also what is the scale in which they can do it? Mundus created celestial bodies as present in his dimension that he made from scratch a lot of them have to draw energy from somewhere or have matter to manipulate.

All of this is basically a COMPLETE no limits fallacy.

How is this a no limits fallacy? A no limits fallacy would be me saying that just because Majin Form is invincible in its universe which is true and still quite impressive would mean the same for Marvel, DC, Image, IDW, Dynamite despite their omnipotent characters.

Mundus most definitely DOES have a limit, saying otherwise is ridiculous.

What I was saying is that Mundus himself confirmed to having no limit when it came to the creation of life and his dimension creation was casual. Now how does that mean that it is a no limits fallacy? Especially in his universe it would be correct.

Just because he created a few stars doesn't mean he's suddenly limitless.

I never implied that. I was talking about his general abilities which would include not a few but the creation of MANY stars in his dimension.

The fact of the matter is, Mundus created a pocket dimension. That's it. That's basically his only feat, and as you mentioned several other characters can do the same.

Not true! So how about Xemnas? By your logic what he did isn`t impressive since many other characters have shown to create complete realities or dimensions especially with more ease and transition. That was one of the things Mundus has done also by your logic many characters have created planets and I would think pocket dimensions would take more power to create than planets so Jafar wouldn`t be impressive... That would be his only feat against facing Aladdin. Also your forgetting about Mundus` combat feats and who he was exactly fighting.

Saying he has no limit is ridiculous, every character has limits, and Mundus didn't even do anything that was all that impressive.

I already addressed this the same can go with Xemnas, Jafar, Oogie Boogie and many more characters also I never implied that he had no limit as an overall powerhouse I was just confirming what he already confirmed for himself....

Really, he's below Jafar and Xemnas in power for sure, and is likely on par with Ursula and Hades. Based off feats, that would be the case.

No he is not, I don`t know where you are getting this from. Jafar even combat-wise was not as impressive as Mundus and he got tricked by both Sora as well as Aladdin easily in the games and for Aladdin it would be movie as well. Same with Ursula as well as Hades their movie feats don`t describe their in-game ones also the dimension Mundus created was much more greater than the one Jafar created in KH 2. Creation of stars and dimensions >>>> planets also Jafar never used them in-combat also Mundus has the better combat feats and he was a MUCH HARDER boss.

What was so impressive about Ursula other than water manipulation as well as lightning casting? Lol! She`s Jester level at best and these villains aren`t as smart or cunning as Mundus either, Xemnas is the ONLY legit comparison.

He`s been knocked out by the Nobodies in Twilight Town

I don't recall this, please show me. And even if it happened, by the end of the game Sora is taking out Nobodies casually, so it's really just a low showing at best. That's IF it even happened.

I already showcased this and its the fact that it happened which is my point you said it never did multiple times. Also I could say the same for Dante this is a double standard once again no offense just stating the truth. Also even Dante`s lowest showings are more greater than a good degree of Sora`s best when it comes to durability, healing and everything else that comes to surviving.

and he`s been bested by Squall although those are earlier points it doesn`t change the fact that it happened.

No, he beat Squall. While in game it doesn't matter if you win or lose, In the official manga for the game, he beats Squall in their encounter, thus showing that the CANON outcome is Sora winning.

No in-cutscene he has been beaten by Squall and it shows he can be overcome which you denied. That is in the manga AFTER the game if I`m not mistaken and the fact Squall beat him in the game says that Sora therefore can be pushed passed his limits and subdued that`s the whole point of why I stated this...

Besides, the fact that these are the only showings of Sora being in any real danger, just goes to show how powerful he is by the end of the game. You can't really use a beginning of the game showing to try to lowball Sora.

I already showcased many events in which Sora was in danger and Dante would laugh at a lot of them considering his feats showcase him being in no real danger. The closest was his fight with Vergil but even then he only got stronger that`s it only real official knock-out. Also I`m not, I think lowballing Damte

None of them comparing to Dante being cut, pierced and impaled by Yamato, Alastor, Sparda, Rebellion

Based off what? Your own personal opinion?

Based on facts actually since I know both experiences and Sora`s cutscenes contradict with the in-game mechanics.

Because based off feats, Keyblades gave the user planetary+ power. Neptune's Trident gave the user COMPLETE control over the seas. Sephiroth's sword is said to be able to cut through reality IIRC.

Something that is still below Yamato in overall power it gave to the wielder at the time and that has nothing to do with actual durability. Big deal, based on feats in both KH 1 and 2 as well as the Little Mermaid movie (which I watch and still recall to the recounting of remembering) it has nothing on Sparda also there are lesser characters within the DMC universe who can manipulate water or the sea its nothing special and Sora has never been impaled, his cutscenes even show him being overwhelmed by far less opposition as evidenced above and soon to be below. Yamato can cut through dimensions, realities, repair and restore bridges within him also its a much sharper blade so Yamato >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Masamune. Dante has been impaled, cut through, sliced, diced and ripped open still he manages to laugh it all off while Sora has never done such a thing and Vergil has even endured being cut right through in half after an hours long fight. There`s no competition and there certainly is no comparison in terms of what the other has been through, Dante has been through more and it doesn`t actually phase him also its more legit considering cutscene involvement while Sora`s make him to be inconsistent and those weapons are not as powerful or as universally magical as the ones Dante has encountered in his universe. Also Sephiroth`s sword in-game does more damage than standard boss damage even Xemnas as powerful as he was doesn`t do the same exact rate of damage that Sephiroth does without Cure or Guard magic, I don`t see how Sora can realistically survive those encounters he needs magic to keep the machine going unlike Dante who would be shrugging off much more lethal intrusions on a regular basis.

The point is, there's no proof that the damage Sora has tanked is any less potent than the damage Dante has tanked.

Yes there is, none of his bosses were as powerful or dangerous all the way from KH 1 to KH 2 the only exception being Xemnas also that one argument does not augment your original reason. Sora usually uses his superior skill, speed and magic as well as guard abilities to overcome his bosses a lot of them are slow and stationary also..... And he has teammates to heal him from all of his injuries so he can`t tank blunt force damage as casually as you are making.

I saw this feat, how is different from Mundus making stars out of a perfectly made dimension?

First off, Mundus never even made stars. There is no proof that those are stars, they just look like regular fireballs.

Yes he did! They are stars, its Mundus` world he can conjure up anything that is within his power and I wasn`t talking about the meteorites that he summons later in the fight. I`m talking about the obvious background of the dimension when he is conversing with Dante and even in the Lore those fireballs are confirmed as being meteorites as Dante`s Majin form allows him to shoot meteorites just like Mundus did and I could easily say that the planets Jafar made weren`t even that big.... They weren`t even detailed or fully realized planets which he never ever used in combat against Sora even his shadowy realm during his fight with Sora in KH 2 was inferior to what Mundus displayed in his fight with Dante and Mundus could tank more damage unlike Jafar who is easily overcome by simple blindspots.

Second, playing with PLANETS is far superior to throwing a couple of miniature "stars." Except, yet again, there's nothing proving that those ARE stars, as opposed to just being fireballs.

Also they weren`t a couple of stars..... They were MANY all encompassing every angle of the cutscene and I replayed the game many times, I can tell you with full confidence that I am correct. Also if Jafar was so powerful why didn`t he show planet creation in either KH games? His first fight with Sora was pathetic IMO. He didn`t do anything except throw rocks, so Mundus` summoning meteorites or fireballs as you call them is FAR MORE impressive anyway and his realm was not on par with Mundus` dimension creation. It barely had anything in it and it was not detailed or composite unlike Mundus`. Mundus shown more abilities in combat and Jafar can`t even use abilities properly this shows how inconsistent and incompetent he is.

So, Jafar is still >>>>>> Mundus, and Xemnas is still >>>>>>>> Jafar.

Actually its Mundus>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jafar and Xemnas > Mundus by a slide.

That is true but it doesn`t exactly mean he is more powerful than Mundus especially his feats there is no huge gap only aconsiderable one and Dante still dwarfs Mundus so...

Oh no, there's a considerable gap.

Its not super huge or gigantic its decent at best.

Considering that there's a decent gap between playing with planets like they're toys, and throwing a couple fireballs, I would say that Jafar already dwarfs Mundus by quite a bit.

Your overrating Jafar along with Sora here....

1. Jafar NEVER EVER demonstrated this power within either KH games and never has he done so in-combat unlike Mundus who can summon many meteorites with complete ease as much as he wants within his battle with Dante.

2. It was only shown within the Aladdin movie and even then the planets weren`t that of a big deal..... I`ve seen other characters do the same thing but with greater accuracy and vision....... Also his realm creating powers weren`t even a fraction of what Mundus made with his composite dimension and that feat is supposed to be greater logically than his planet creation one which should be much easier to create...

3. Star and meteorite creation >>>>> planet creation especially in the case of meteorites since he can actually use them within COMBAT.

And considering that Xemnas is much stronger than Jafar, that just goes to show how HUGE the gap really is.

Of course he is much stronger than Jafar. He is also smarter, more skilled, responsible as well as insightful in regards to using his powers... Mundus is the same and Jafar has nothing on Mundus as I have already explained the gap is far from being even great....

So even after considering that Dante dwarfs Mundus, the fact is that Sora's enemies dwarf Mundus as well.

None dwarf him, I can list all of them and compare their feats none, and I mean NONE have anything on Mundus. Xemnas is a small exception and that is even debatable. Dante dwarfs Mundus level beings who are greater than every enemy Sora has faced not counting Xemnas and Sora had HELP he couldn`t do it on his own so its not 100% his feat.... Xemnas in his baser forms is not even as impressive as someone like Abigail and Dante stomped Abigail....

This means that Sora has feats of tanking hits from these guys and defeating them, making his durability MUCH stronger than Dante's, whos never tanked a hit from a being as strong as the enemies Sora usually fights.

Those same bosses you keep overestimating who have not done anything that can be scaled beside Mundus and Sora is healed from his battles also he uses his speed to outdo these bosses he doesn`t flat-out tank them like you are describing another thing is he receives help. Dante has the better durability, healing factor and he doesn`t even seem bothered by the damage unlike Sora.

Dante has tanked being crushed, smashed by lava heated ancient gauntlets, impaled in the heart, hit in the brain by Nero`s DB, reality warping, fire hotter than any conventional form of fire and much more.... Sora hasn`t tanked anything lethal or that would actually kill him I don`t see Sora surviving half of the things Dante tanks and Dante tanks them in-cutscene as well, that compliments the criteria.

This is wrong, as I explained above, because Sora has tanked attacks from enemies that are FAR stronger than any of Dante's enemies. And he shrugs them off casually.

I have proven this false many times as shown above and above. Dante`s enemies are much stronger and Dante is more consistent within cutscene as well as in-game unlike Sora. Dante also has more range, versatility, depth and dimension when it comes to the things he tanks, Sora usually tanks straightforward magic.... How is that even new to what Dante sees everyday and repels with minimal effort?

No, Dante tanks and heals his durability is just as good as his healing factor, we don`t usually see Sora straight-out tanking things if its not in the gameplay and its cartoonish violence so of course its going to look like he`s shrugging off excess damage.

As I've explained above, the cartoonish violence IS Sora's durability. He's just that tough, that most attacks don't do any damage because he is for all intents and purposes invulnerable.

That is not true and I have already explained this. Also you are forgetting the many variables involved you forget he dodges, outpaces his slow mobile bosses and he gets healed with potions, cure and much more in his battles. Also his cutscenes don`t support your claims so its speculation and unconfirmed ideas at the end of the day.

It's like placing Dante in a fight against Bugs Bunny. Even though Bugs is just a cartoon character, his durability feats suggest that he could tank anything that Dante had to offer.

I mentioned this point previously and Bugs uses Toon Force unlike Sora so you can`t compare them other than animation style... Bugs ACTUALLY tanks what he tanks within his respective universe, Sora has people to heal him on a regular basis and protect him from harm he is not as tough as you are painting him to be... Dante tanks being impaled in-game and in-cutscene when has Sora shown to be impaled?

Same with Sora. His durability IS cartoonish, so that's why he's so hard to put down.

No its because he is healed every experience in-game and his cutscenes show the opposite of what you are describing.

Whereas Dante's durability is a lot more realistic, and thus he can be put down easier once you get past the healing factor.

How is it exactly more realistic other than detail for detail? Dante has tanked worse, more and he has come out unscathed unlike Sora who is greatly affected. Sora has individuals heal him every battle and he heals himself on top of all that. Also Dante having a healing factor already puts him above Sora who can`t heal from damage without Cure, Elixir and Potions.

Dante has dodged light from Beowulf which move in an omnidirectional fashion and those are ethereal needles but I digress cause remember the lore was a bit different,

As you admitted, those aren't lasers, and thus the feat isn't as impressive.

I was talking about Xemnas you know.... Beowulf doesn`t use ethereal properties or nothingness he uses light in all its glory. So its lightspeed and by comparison it would be quite more impressive especially since in-game the actual feathers move far faster than what you see Sora dodging, jumping over and blocking by himself when fighting Xemnas tat for tat.

however Dante has dodged lasers, light beams and just pure light

Once again, reflecting an omnidirectional barrage of lasers>>>>>> dodging lasers, lightbeams and pure light.

Again, I will expose the overrating of this particular feat soon. This is the start to that progress, Dante dodges light in-game and in cutscene Sora has more than enough time to jump over or block Xemnas` energy needles also Sora did not do that feat on his OWN so it doesn`t belong to him 100% and even then it was by a landslide they still after that cutscene got overwhelmed if he was truly Flash fast he would be able to react to those beams from every angle all on his own and he would be able to combat Xemnas within combat all at the same time better yet... He would see those so called omnidirectional lasers as movements within slow motion which Dante can perceive easily and sees things moving really slow so his perception speed is even more developed as well as better which is a HUGE advantage.

All of those things move at lightspeed, so obviously both Sora and Dante are FTL.

They both are but Dante is lightspeed+ and he is still faster also his mind processes faster so that needs to be accouned for as well. Thinking speed would be in Dante`s corner as well as perception speed.

The only difference is that Sora's feat is far more impressive, and makes him MFTL+, whereas Dante is stuck at FTL because his feats only suggest that much. Maybe in a new game he'll get a more impressive feat, but for now he's stuck at FTL.

Its less impressive actually... As proven above, there are so many variables that are being tossed aside. Sora had help, Dante had no help and he can barely showcase that speed when dodging a small amount of lasers when one on one with Xemnas and their pretty slow they give you time to dodge, block or evade also Sora even needs Riku to dodge simple dark and light matter...

another thing is its movement speed for him for Sora its like a sequence, a stationary one where he has to guard he doesn`t react right away and blitz like Dante does

Incorrect I'm afraid. The fact that the lasers were coming from EVERY direction means that he wasn't guarding, he had to move around and deflect 50% of those lasers.

He had help from Riku and even then it was hard for him to keep himself together if he was truly MTFL that wouldn`t be a problem. Also he wasn`t fighting somebody when doing that.... He was merely deflecting and that is it.... That`s not hard when you have someone to watch your back and someone who I would say by feats would be more underrated than Sora when it comes to speed in the speed department.

Whereas Dante may have a faster travel speed, Sora reacts faster and has faster reflexes, which will allow him to blitz Dante.

Dante`s reaction speed is great as well. He also has better combat feats he can vanish which a lot of hypersonic characters in animes and comics have failed to even accomplish they leave a trace behind and their not invisible to the human or naked eye either but Dante is! But I pretty much already addressed this concern within the previous communications and conversations.

Although if Dante tries to run away because of his superior travel speed, Sora can close the gap with his teleportation.

Dante also has teleportation.....Dante uses it more and he also has better as well as more consistent combat feats than Sora does... Also why would he run away when he can easily block Sora`s attacks and have the Keyblade out of his possession just like Roxas? Who hasn`t even proven himself by feats OR even statements and lore to being MFTL?

also Dante can literally disappear.....

As can Sora.

No he cannot. He has not shown this with standard speed within cutscene or even in-game and its not consistent either...

Another thing is Dante deflected Mundus` light laser beam and he`s only gotten faster after that point not slower.

Again, I'm not questioning Dante's FTL status.

I understand but Sora doesn`t even close by consistency of feats.

I'm merely pointing out that Sora is indeed faster based off feats, and yet again there's no real way for you to argue with that unless you can provide an ACTUAL feat of Dante doing something on that level.

He is not faster as I have already proven his feats have many factored variables that you have not shed light on. Dante also doesn`t only have quality on his side he also has quantity on his side as well, he has shown more feats when it comes to being FTL.

Not true its not a legit ability he doesn`t do it commonly.

You can't just say it's not a "legit ability" because he doesn't do it all the time.

I`m not saying its not legit because he doesn`t do it everyday-all day but I`m saying so more because its not consistent especially when you are to compare it to Dante and Dante also has teleportation.....

The point is, he did it. Which means he can, end of story.

He can but will he is the question, especially when you already have two characters who can teleport and since this is a team effort wouldn`t Sora want to guard his teammate Cloud who is the slowest in this battle?

And by the way, he does do it fairly commonly.

In his respects maybe not as frequently as Dante and he gets blitzed by Roxas who rarely uses this ability also slower characters have no trouble tagging him aerially or on ground while Dante on the other hand gives his enemies headaches.

He does it against the Hydra (another really good strength feat btw, just saying):

I remember this boss fight and I loved it! What Sora is cool but its not teleportation... All he did was slash and then jump really high which many anime characters can do....

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Does it against Xemnas:

That`s not teleportation again your turning Sora`s feats into something else... All he did was fade in and out something Dante has shown to do and there`s a trace also unlike Dante who just vanishes....

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Also how are those different than this? They don`t look different than what the Blitz has shown.

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AND IF THAT WASN'T ENOUGH, he even has an ability that is literally called teleport.

Now this is teleport and even then by in-game comparison both Dante`s as well as Vergil`s is a lot more smooth as well as transitional.

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Dante can use Dark Slayer as well.

Even if you are right,

I am right.

I have proven that to be false.

it still pales in comparison to what Dante has shown to do consistently and in-custscene.

Teleporting is teleporting, you can't be "better" at teleporting.

I agree and understand but you can be faster at it, and Dante is the faster thinker as Vergil is the more calculating one.

Either you can do it, or you can't, and Sora can.

He can its just the comparison in question in regards to it being a used ability commonly as well as consistently.

Although, I never recall Dante doing it. He just moves so fast that he's invisible, but he doesn't actually have a canon teleportation skill IIRC. All the feats you showed just demonstrated his immense speed. But really you wouldn't even need to be FTL to do that, even a Massively hypersonic character could disappear with their speed. Prove me wrong if so.

He does it with Trickster as confirmed by the Lore, he does it again with Dark Slayer and a lot of anime characters can`t even move to appear that fast... I already have but I will so again and like I said even anime characters despite their hypersonic+ speed can`t move to appear that fast they leave traces behind for enemy to follow and so on so forth. They leave after-images and etc behind...

Just because he hasn`t shown he can do it doesn`t mean he can`t its up to us decide to fill in those gaps as well

If he hasn't shown he can, then we can't assume he can for the purpose of this battle. We have to consider his feats, and see if any of them suggest that he's capable of replicating it.

And like I have proven above, Dante has done better, also by your own logic it would apply to Sora vanishing which he himself has never shown to do without a single trace and its the same with Jafar by feats he wouldn`t be as powerful as Mundus especially in-game also Sora got blitzed by a non MFTL character...

In the case of Sora's laser feat, he's not, because NONE of his feats are even CLOSE to that.

I already addressed this.

and with that logic also like you mentioned before Sora would be able replicate plenty of what Dante has done which he hasn`t done in-cutscene like Dante has done within his respective game universe consistently.

In most cases Sora would be, because every feat Dante has Sora has done the same, if not better.

This is not true and its a double standard considering none of his feats are to the same degree of Dante`s especially with all the game mechanics. His cutscenes contradict your very claim.

The same can't be said vice-versa, because Sora has better feats than Dante does for the most part.

I already addressed this and he can`t have better ones if he does not have consistent ones in the first place.

I`m not sold on the idea Sora is MFTL that means he in league with Birus or Flash which is far from true

Based off feats, it IS true.

No it is not as I have already explained and he got blitz by characters who are not MFTL which can`t be said to the same effect as either Birus or Wally.

You can't say it's far from true, because it is a legitimate feat that places Sora as MFTL.

it isn`t legit because first of all he did not do it on his own, second its not consistent with his own speed feats and third he has been blitzed by slower characters.

So if he's in league with Bills or Flash, then so be it. But that's not what's important.

And he isn`t, this is greatly false as well as overestimated, Vegeta even reacted to multiple omnidirectional lasers ON HIS OWN not with help....

What's important is that he IS MFTL, and Dante is not. Thus giving Sora a major advantage.

Addressed this.

also even if it were true it would be more akin to movement/reflex not reaction combat speed and perception

Actually, it would be the exact opposite. What Sora did was more of a reflex/reaction speed feat. He was able to detect when each laser was coming, and deflect it accordingly.

Actually it wouldn`t... It wasn`t combat speed just because he reacted to it and also Riku was there to guard him from all other sides all he did was deflect as you said yourself within this sentence. Dante can deflect, respond and move within the same accordance.

Now if you want to argue his TRAVEL speed isn't that fast, that's another thing.

It wouldn`t matter since its not all that important in a fight and he would Sora is inconsistent anyway.

because Sora`s mobility can be in question while Dante actually is a more fluid character and he moves instantaneously.

Again, you're talking about travel speed here. I'd agree that Dante moves faster than Sora (like being able to outpace light, run down buildings at reentry speeds, etc.), but Sora's combat/reaction/reflex speeds are faster (those three basically mean the same thing).

Also how is that exactly travel speed when Dante has shown that he can perform combat within the same line of speed? Dante has the better reflexes, combat, reaction and perception as well as thinking speed another thing is can Dante move in more than one area whereas in Sora`s case he`s pretty stationary.

So Dante can TRAVEL faster, but Sora can FIGHT faster.

Dante can travel AND fight as well as think faster another thing that needs to be addressed is thinking speed.

Yes he has.... He has dodged lasers, light beams and light itself he has four legit feats for his lightspeed combat reaction speed...

Which all pale in comparison to Sora's one lightspeed feat, as I explained above.

Its the opposite actually and Sora did not as well as could not do that supposed lightspeed feat on his own.

. Also Sora has never disappeared or moved so fast that he is stopping rain in its tracks

Stopping rain when fighting doesn't indicate FTL speeds, a massively hypersonic character could do that.

I want to see another character replicate this and even if it were true they probably had to exert themselves.

It's unquantifiable, and still not as impressive as deflecting an omnidirectional barrage of lasers.

It isn`t actually considering you would have to calculate the movement and velocity of raindrops as well as the limb movement of both Sons of Sparda, another thing is.... Sora did not do it all by himself so it is not a MFTL feat neither has Sora replicated or shown he can do this therefore its not consistent.

neither has he launched himself and as maneuverable as Dante has on a moving missile.

Again, I've already admitted that Dante has better travel speed.

But you forget that he has better, combat, reaction, reflex and thinking speed as well, also perception speed would be another addition.

Dante`s memory muscle is better

Lol, I don't know where that came from!

Muscle memory is not a memory stored in your muscles, of course, but memories stored in your brain that are much like a cache of frequently enacted tasks for your muscles.

Dante certainly has the better fluidity in programming and processing his next movements this is in fact true despite the unpredictable inclusion this does factor into speed even Batman, Wonder Woman and Superman had the same exact conversation if I`m not mistaken.

and he is more seamless

I disagree.

I`ve proven it correct.

while Sora is stationary or one dimensional with how he reacts to an attack.

False. As I explained above, you would have to move around to react to each individual laser coming at you from all angles.

Of course because he has Riku also deflecting all the incoming lasers coming at him making sure to watch his back which goes to show Sora can`t do and couldn`t do that feat alone, and that doesn`t make him MFTL. And all Sora needs to do is stay in one area quite repetitively.

And I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "one dimensional."

Its one dimensional as in it has no depth or layers to it, its simple, straightforward and nothing special or out of the ordinary.

MFTL reaction speed is MFTL reaction speed, no matter how you look at it.

Of course but what Sora did was NOT MFTL speed.

Dodging light attacks,

Not as impressive as Sora's feat, we've established that.

Already addressed this.

entering re-entry levels

Movement speed.

And combat speed since he can fight on those levels.

and stopping rain with pure speed friction

Unquantifiable, as you don't even have to be FTL to do that really.

Unless you want to try and calc it using math and stuff, then it's an unquantifiable feat.

Already addressed this.

when has Sora ever done that the only single feat you can use is the lasers and even that is questionable.

That "single feat" is the only one I need, because it outshines EVERY speed feat Dante has.

Already addressed this.

And I fail to see how it's "questionable."

Addressed this already.

Dante is more consistent with his FTL feats than Sora is with being MFTL

Perhaps, but that doesn't change the fact that he's MFTL.

That`s a big factor when it comes to feats and the all-around character. It does change the fact when you add the variables also Sora has never done this previously or shown this after neither has he ever hinted at this type of speed so consistency does matter quite a lot.... Especially since Sora is inconsistent and has been both tagged as well as blitzed by non MFTL characters, Roxas being the biggest example.

You only need one feat to determine you're speed. Just because you don't display that speed all the time, doesn't mean it suddenly goes away.

You need one consistent feat to show why a character is consistent without it everything else becomes useless because you have no basis to fall back on and this is the case with Sora.

and Sora doesn`t actively teleport its by command.

I don't understand. What do you mean its "by command"?

Its by command in terms of in-game, it doesn`t just happen it happens depending on the scenario just like every other command in the KH series.

Sora can teleport whenever he chooses to, as I displayed above in full detail.

Already addressed this.

Dante actually teleports

Arguable, because all the examples you've shown me only consist of Dante moving so fast he's invisible, no actual canon teleportation ability.

He teleports with both Dark Slayer and Trickster he will have Yamato in this fight due to Vergil also that`s still way better than all of Sora`s standard speed feats including the false MFTL one. Especially since Dante does it by his own will and by his own ability not because he received help or because he is inconsistent.

and he has seen invisible demons as well as defeated them with pure perception.

That doesn't help here, since those demons weren't MFTL like Sora.

They don`t have to be, it just goes to show that Dante is ALL-AROUND faster in more than one area. His perception speed is much better and his thoughts process much quicker...

No he is not he could beat them with not much trouble

Then he's more powerful than them...

Dante is way more powerful than Sora`s bosses, I agree.

but it wouldn`t matter to Dante who could do the same and who is even more powerful than the bosses you mentioned as well

False, I've addressed this.

I have as well and what you stated has proven to be false in every sense of the word especially since Jafar is a BAD example when we go feat by feat comparison.

also when adding the factors of cutscenes you have a whole new edging point in the argument itself,

QTEs are just as valid as cutscenes, so it doesn't really change anything here.

I didn`t say there weren`t and I actually agree the only problem Dante has more cutscenes as well as QTEs also what he has shown is far more impressive to say the least.

Dante has more going for him and his consistency seems to be more reflective of his credibility existing in both in-game and in-custscene instances add the manuals and.....

And yet all of that "consistency" doesn't stack up to the majority of Sora's feats, which are FAR more impressive.

I already addressed this.

Sora really isn`t as consistent

Perhaps, but his feats certainly suggest he's more powerful, as I've fully detailed above.

That is a problem. And you took a lot of his feats out of context considering you took the many variables out of the equation how are we suppose to measure feats without consistency?

or impressive.

Now that's just straight up blasphemy.

I would say so for Dante not Sora especially when comparing Jafar to Mundus or Sora`s durability to Dante`s.

He has collapsed as well

Still waiting to see this.

Already shown this and he collapses more than Dante, in-cutscene.

and I could say the same for Dante

I know, that's why I said "moot point."

You seem to be misunderstanding me.

I'm agreeing that Sora and Dante are equals when it comes to Skill and Endurance.

I've even admitted that Dante takes the edge in Movement Speed and Healing Factor.

Already addressed this.

I'm only claiming that Sora is superior in Reaction/Combat Speed, Strength, and Durability(arguably they're equal, but based off the enemies they've encountered, plus Sora's cartoonish invulnerability, Sora might take the edge).

Already addressed this.

Since there's no magic or extra abilities or anything in this fight, those are really the only aspects that matter, and Sora just has too many advantages to lose here.

How? When he uses his magic all the time..... To heal, to guard and to sustain..... Dante does not need magic like Sora does to keep going in a fight.

he will kill Sora right off the bat

He will try. But unfortunately, he will fail. Terribly.

Which you haven`t proven and Sora got bested by Roxas he could of died to Roxas.... Roxas isn`t as skilled, forward and dynamic as Vergil..... Also its two on one since Cloud is easily a non-factor.

No he has not and I already explained that Dante has tanked what Sora has tanked both in gameplay as well as cutscene, Sora HAS NEVER been impaled ever. Judgment cut, cuts right through reality on a dimensional level also its more swift as well as unpredictable than what Sora is used to also its more blunt damage than explosive force.

Again, unless you're implying that Sephiroth never tagged him once in their encounter, then it just shows that Sora's cartoonish ability allows him to not GET impaled. So Dante won't be able to do it either.

I never said he did not tag him just that he NEVER impaled him and Sora uses magic to heal his injuries not because he is durable or has a healing factor. Maybe its just Sora`s speed and magic that doesn`t allow to him get impaled why don`t you ever mention that?

I could say Sora is barely MFTL....

You could, but you'd be wrong considering Sora was able to deflect a barrage of beams moving at lightspeed.

Already addressed this.

Characters who are not as fast or mobile have tagged Sora

Oh, so what you're saying is that Sora HAS been tagged by his opponents?

Yes he has which include Jafar, Oogie, Maleficent and more...

Well in that case, that yet again just goes to show that Sora's durability is enough to tank anything Dante or Vergil throw his way, since he's gone up against tougher opponents and tanked attacks from them with no issues.

I already addressed this.

also I don`t see Sora dodging his Judgment Cuts either

I do, since he's done this:

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Nothing in that video is as fast paced and instant as Vergil`s Judgment Cuts especially since he`s a much faster character than Sephiroth to begin with...

Loading Video...

and Vergil doesn`t need to be FTL to tag Sora especially when it would be two on one.

Yes he would. If two turtles are trying to tag a rabbit, it doesn't matter HOW MANY turtles there are, the rabbit is still going to be faster.

Vergil keeping up with Dante in DMC 3 is proof enough and while that is true the problem is Vergil as well as Dante would be the dogs not the turtles... Also teleporation is better than lightspeed...

Same basic idea.

It is but you are looking at it wrong.

Vergil actually matched Dante

Yeah, the weakest version of Dante.

Still doesn`t change the fact he can teleport and that Dante even at that point was more impressive than Sora in the majority.

who can react and combat with Beowulf who fires light attacks at lightspeed

Again, I'm not questioning Dante and Vergil's FTL combat speed.

Addressed this.

I'm merely saying that they're not as fast as Sora, neither of them.

Addressed this.

The fact that he matched (albeit weaker version of) Dante shows that he IS FTL.

Addressed this.

But the lack of many other feats don't give us a clear picture of just how fast he is.

Addressed this.

also teleportation is instant,

Sora has this as well.

Addressed this.

how does MFTL beat that exactly in a combat scenario...

Exactly how I explained in this entire extremely long post!

Addressed this and you didn`t explain or elaborate on this either.

Yamato has cut through more things actually in cut-scene as well making more impressive, convincing as well as believably valid.

Such as? What has Yamato actually cut through in cut-scene?

Double standard. What has Masamune shown to have cut through in-cutscene as well as the Keyblade? Yamato has cut through healing factors, Hell Gates, Savior, dimensions (which would be in the cutscenes of DMC 3 and 4).

It possess more magic and its a mystical weapon although the Keyblade is magical in nature I feel as though Yamato is more rawly rooted in demonics and magic.

In demonics, yes. In magic, no.

In both actually its just that the Keyblade has more magic not that it is more potent or destructive.

So far from true, its sealed a dimension, acted as key for reopening dimensions and its cut through invulerable weapons such as the Devil Bringer.

None of that makes my statement "so far from true." I said that it has only sealed a dimension ONCE, and that still stands as true.

So by your logic even if it was once wouldn`t that mean Sora has only done a MFTL speed once? Even though you took that feat out of context? Also it was casual just as much as Sora`s was and the point is can seal AND repopen dimensions as well as planes what makes so differently special in the first place?

Yamato has done that as well what makes the Keyblade more impressive other than casually?

How can you say "other than casually"???

Becuase Yamato is as casual and you say its because he has done so more casually which doesn`t make sense.

The fact that Sora does it so casually IS what makes that more impressive.

How is it more casual exactly, I think this is where the problem lies.

And as if that wasn't enough, Sora and the Keyblade have done it far more than Yamato has.

When? And I thought quality >>>quantity?

Sparda has done it casually and he has done so with many more things beside weaponry.

Irrelevant, since Dante =/= Sparda.

Both having the same demonic blood and same measured power that alone levels says a lot.

it wouldn`t matter since that wouldn`t work in a combat scenario when up against someone like Dante

Sora does it every time he takes down a boss.

Bosses who are weaker and actually EVIL in character in the comparison to Dante, Vergil I could understand but even then he would have to tag him and it takes time.

When you beat a boss, you're unlocking their heart and then the Darkness consumes them, which is why at the end of every boss fight they get swallowed up by Darkness.

That`s Sora` bosses who are EVIL and have darkness in the first place so you can`t apply that against Dante.

So Sora could do the same to Dante, who (even though he's a good-guy) still has some Darkness in his heart. Everybody does.

So why does it seem to work only on the bosses Sora faces if every other kind of enemy had it? And its not even instant in the first place.

and I find it hard to believe that Sora would be able to hit a moving target that is known for vanishing from thin air on a consistently casual basis that none of Sora`s enemies have shown to do in gameplay or outside of it.

Considering how much faster Sora is, it shouldn't really be hard to believe, especially when Sora can vanish from thin air as well.

Double standard once again, Sora hasn`t even shown to be capable to doing this in-cutscene with his standard speed.......

You actually haven`t. Rebellion is a match for the Keyblade and they aren`t quite that different if you are to really map out what they have shown or have done.

False, because as I have established, the Keyblade has dealt with enemies FAR superior to any enemy Dante has gone up against.

Already addressed this and with that logic, how do you explain Donald, Goofy and other Party Members being able to do a considerate amount of damage against the same bosses who are affected pretty much by most attacks anyway? Also considering the Keyblade is designed to combat darkness, evil and villainy its not really a surprise.

The Keyblade has done damage to Xemnas and Jafar, two characters who surpass ALL of the enemies met in the DmC series.

So has Riku and others.... Also I already addressed why Xemnas would be the only one to compete with Mundus.

Rebellion hasn't gone up against an opponent even CLOSE to as powerful as them.

Aldready addressed this.

So, based off feats, Keyblade >>>>> Rebellion or Yamato.

Quite the contrary actually, Rebellion = Keyblade and Yamato > Keyblade.

First he sealed Mundus and the demon world then he did so again with Yamato as confirmed in DMC 4 he also sealed the Despair demon in DMC 2 along with the demon world.

Sealing demons <<<<< Sealing worlds, and Sora does that on a casual and consistent basis.

Already addressed this.

That is true but I`m talking about its consistent and ongoing feats, Yamato usually is universal + dimensional on the regular.

If we're talking about consistent and ongoing, Yamato only has one dimensional feat. No universal feats, whereas the Keyblade does have universal feats, and MULTIPLE dimensional feats.

Already addressed this.

Not true, that is the only real identifier Yamato is more powerful

Not true!

Addressed this.

and its cut through more things that I would find more impressive in combat.

False, because as we've discussed above Sora has taken down FAR more impressive enemies than Dante has taken down with Yamato, specifically Xemnas, Jafar, Ursula, Hades, etc.

Addressed this once again.

Yamato can unlock different powers,

As can the Keyblade.

It can even grant special abilities when different keychains are equipped to it.

Already addressed this.

and that only proves versatility

Which the Keyblade has the edge in.

Already addressed this.

not actual raw physical power as Yamato should hold the edge in that regard.

Incorrect, for reasons stated above.

I responded to this concern already.

They were banished from Heaven like Mundus was and Sparda had to seal them by taking away their power as they were sealed to the earth because they threatened the world. Also feats don`t define all factors they are just one of the factors and feats can be so powerfully misused that they can create a spiral that can cause consistency to become inconsistency sometimes statements is all you need as long as nothing is contradicting or retconning them like you see in comics most of the time.

So...in other words, they have no feats?

Because without feats, there's no way for us to gauge the abilities of a character.

That is not true there are implications and feats aren`t always consistent which can damage a character more than anything else. This is like your argument dealing with Sora still being superior to Dante despite his strong and easily recognizable inconsistency.

A statement isn't enough, or Odin would be omnipotent and Hulk would be stronger than TOAA because he's the "Strongest there is!"

Like you see in comics which is hyperbole and proven to be retconned or untrue once again later also its the weight of the statements. We know Hulk is not the strongest there is but he can be the strongest physically on earth in terms of heroes and Odin may not be omnipotent but in the character`s eyes who exclaims so sees him as omnipotent because of the power difference while in DMC the Seven Sins weren`t proven to be less than the statements that explained them.

Without feats, statements are meaningless, and the Seven Sins have none.

Already addressed this and I explained why it would also be double standard on your part.

Sparda has done the same and he has done it with more than just his standard weapons he has done it with relics also he has more experience in doing it while Sora does it one dimensionally his track record lies more with sealing Keyholes while Sparda does grander things on a grander scale on a more patterned basis.

While I disagree, for reasons that I have detailed thoroughly throughout this post, the main point I'd like to counter is this:

As you explained and which I have disapproved.

while Sparda does grander things on a grander scale on a more patterned basis.

Irrelevant, because Dante =/= Sparda, as I've pointed out multiple times.

Addressed this already.

It actually does because he can use those things in combat and he has also when he first sealed Mundus he faced him in combat and banished his demons also how would Jackpot which Dante is known for using count as being useless in a combat situation?? Also Sora`s unlock abilities deal more with the help and it wouldn`t work all the time it works on those it is meant to work the ones of darkness

Unlocking your heart works on EVERYBODY, because everybody has Darkness in their hearts.

Addressed this already.

He is more powerful all-around

Based off feats, this is simply untrue.

Sora has dealt with more powerful threats, and has better feats against such opponents.

Addressed this already.

and he has more feats especially dealing with speed which your main argument seems to be that speed is Sora`s strongest advantage.

It definitely is in this fight since there is no magic/abilites or anything like that.

And the fact that he has MORE feats doesn't matter, because Sora's ONE speed feat is vastly superior to ALL of Dante's.

Addressed this already and it is again double standard which if we are to go back, will greatly hinder or shake the foundation of everything else established within this debate.

I`ve used all of them and they are BOSS no doubt about that but I can`t really see them as being superior when even the Drive Forms haven`t proven to be as versatile as Dante`s transformations as Dante has not only more but MANY that actually function much more specific and unique. Final Form and Wisdom Form are like an upgrade of Valor form just add two keyblades, stronger aura and more magic with the damage output the truly unique exception would be the Anti-Form (my a favorite arguably). Dante has Dreadnaught, Sparda, Devil Trigger, Majin and each transformation changes with the change of a Devil Arm also Dante can fly while Sora only levitates in his Drive Forms.

I disagree, and although I was going to argue this, I realized there is no point as DT and Drive Forms aren't in this battle, so it's pointless.

But I believe you were the first to mention it my point was that Dante doesn`t need them to win and also I was only clarifying on the fact that he would stomp with them.

Sora can keep going but the gap is still quite big once you have a healing factor such as Dante which even godlike characters and weapons of cutting-edge force cannot overcome weapons that are designed to cut pass regeneration or a tricky durability don`t kill or at least put Dante in any real harm even when he faced Vergil,

I disagree about durability, but I've already detailed that above.

Sora's tanked hits from much stronger characters, he can tank plenty of hits from Dante.

I addressed this many times.

Dante was never in any real harm which also means your argument about him fatiuing and being out of energy is severely incorrect it didn`t actually push him also Dante since then has NEVER EVER shown fatigue.

And likewise, Sora has only shown fatigue ONCE, and even then it was only minor fatigue.

Greatly false and I addressed this as well, this is OVERRATING Sora.

Not true, Sora will get stomped fighting both at once

I disagree.

Its fact.

especially since Vergil can teleport and vanish as well as Dante

As can Sora, the only difference as he has TRUE teleportation, as opposed to just moving really fast.

Addressed this above.

while Sora not to my knowledge has ever faced an enemy of that caliber in sheer movement-coordination speed.

Xemnas.

Wasn`t all that impressive and nothing he has shown is new to what Jester, Vergil and Nevan have shown.

Vergil will read his moves and act accordingly even if Sora is faster in some categories

Sora is faster in the categories that matter in a fight. Reflexes, combat speed, and reaction speed.

Which all can be nullified by teleportation and lets not pretend like Sora is going to be able to keep up with both Dante as well as Vergil at once.

Vergil can read what he can't see.

He can read what he can see and act accordingly.

Vergil to me is certainly more rawer

I disagree.

He is.

and acts in quick burst also you wouldn`t argue that Sora would be able to take on both Goku and Vegeta who both use IT.

First off, I don't believe Vegeta uses IT.

You got the point anyway and I believe he has displayed it at least ONCE before.

Second, I wouldn't say he could take on both of them because they're as fast, if not MUCH faster than Sora when it comes to combat speed.

I agree.

Vergil and Dante, on the other hand, don't have that advantage.

Yes they do.

I disagree. Sora would beat Vergil but not as casually as you are making it out to be

I disagree.

You have done this above.

Vergil dwarfs Xemnas,

False. Even by your own admission, Terra would be a good fight for Vergil, and IMO he stands a VERY good shot of winning.

Vergil can teleport and he has shown greater speed in-cutscene as well as in gameplay, Xemnas uses a lot of tricks like duplication to fool both the player and Sora unlike Vergil who moves on genuine speed. Also Terra seemed to even be faster than Xemnas, and Vergil to me has an edge over Terra although we already discussed this previously.

And Xemnas >>>>>>> Terra, so Vergil would get STOMPED by Xemnas.

This would be a circular argument and double standard as well.

He's faster, stronger, has reality warping abilities, etc.

Which has nothing to do with the sheer fact and factor of speed.....

Vergil would get wrecked. As would Dante.

Dante would destroy Xemnas now Vergil is a different story but it doesn`t mean he isn`t the much faster character, that is the whole point.

Sephiroth and Cloud also he is more lethal he will go straight for the KILL.

Sephiroth is already a good fight for Vergil, and we both know Seph will go straight for the kill, he just couldn't because Sora was so powerful.

Vergil would only lose because of raw power not because of speed, agility, skill and overall composure that is where your argument is incompatible. Vergil actually was more hardcore when it came to just laying waste and Sora had magic to aid him also.... Vergil is more faster than Sephiroth by speed feats as well.

Dante would take out Cloud faster considering his ability to vanish and a couple of Keyblade strikes won`t be bringing down Vergil so easily whose healing factor was on par with DMC 3 Dante`s also Dante has lightspeed feats in DMC 3 Beowulf being a prime example and he`s matched Dante blow for blow while being able to teleport which he also has over Sora in terms of feats and showings, this you cannot deny.

Aside from the teleportation, speed, and durability arguments that I've already covered, I'd like to point out once again that the battle won't likely be a 1v1, it will be a 2v2, because Sora is used to fighting in a team.

Not true, now this is speculation! Also Vergil and Dante would work better as a team as they are more used to one another, they have more experience together and they`ve fought before as a team unlike Sora and Cloud. Cloud is the weak link and he could also be one of those things to hold Sora back this is something you are not factoring in....

I agree but I disagree once again. Sora will be a strong contender when facing Dante but Dante going all out is a different monster entirely and I certainly don`t think Sora could take Vergil easily.

As detailed above, Sora has the majority of advantages here besides healing factor and movement speed, so if Sora was going all out, Dante would be outmatched, as would Vergil to an even easier extent.

Already addressed this, doesn`t need to be addressed again.

Its the other way around actually. Dante beats Cloud as he has shown to teleport as well as VANISH unlike Sora

Sora can teleport to, and you haven't proven that Dante can actually teleport as opposed to just moving fast.

Already addressed this.

and he will kill Cloud on the spot since he`s going all out then Vergil will stall Sora with teleportation

Same dealio with teleportation, and Sora would stomp Vergil because he is his superior in every aspect sans Healing Factor, but Sora will easily be able to overcome that.

Already addressed this.

and Judgment Cuts which Sora could have a problem with because he doesn`t have Command Techniques for certain situations in Kingdom Hearts when doing things aerially

Sora has plenty of Command Techniques that he uses in air, just look at his fight with Xemnas.

He does but my point is he even has trouble when in doing things in the air and a lot of the times he has either his magic to aid him or a unique Party Member, another thing is he does it alongside Riku not by himself to activate this command. Also none of that is as impressive as what you would see with Dante who can easily take the fight to the air without need of flight.

and Sora certainly won`t be able to win against both.

Cloud is here too, so he won't be alone.

Cloud, the same one who easily gets pwned by much weaker characters and has at best peak human durability? Vergil will blitz him and just because he`s on Sora`s team doesn`t mean he`s going to work alongside him to make it a team effort.

He'll just blitz both, and Cloud will be backup.

Already addressed this.

I think Sora would get uber-stomped to be honest, there`s no way he is taking on two characters of that speed caliber when his previous enemies have never shown to be of that range when it comes to the demonstration of speed their one dimensional while Dante and Vergil are three dimensional.

Even if Sora doesn't WIN, which is arguable in and of itself, he most certainly won't get uber-stomped.

He will and I already addressed this. He can`t handle both, a lot of his bosses require help... And not to a small degree either....

Referring again to my previous metaphor, two turtles vs one rabbit, the rabbit will still hold a significant speed edge despite the amount of turtles.

Already addressed this.

Not saying Dante and Vergil are slow, but in comparison to Sora they kinda are.

Already addressed this.

Team wins.

I agree, Sora's Team wins.

Dante`s team stomps actually.

I agree, this is awesome :)

Indeed, an absolutely marvelous debate!

Definitely :)

@neongamewave said:

@jmarshmallow said:

@neongamewave let me know when you're done!

Jmarshmallow

I`m finished, prepare yourself, I have only begun :)

As have I, my friend.

As have I.

Jmarshmallow

Now to sum up all of your points along with the misconceptions...

Speed

If Sora was MFTL he wouldn`t need Riku`s help to cover his back and if we are to look back at the video...

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1. Sora even needed Riku to dodge something slower, and less generational such as Xemnas` standard light/dark matter which Sora only dodged and Xemnas` still manages to tag him after that.

2. Him and Riku were more than just worn out after the whole event of the lasers that took place prior. Sora and Riku did not have enough stamina to compete with Xemnas after the whole feat.

3. Sora needed Riku`s help to react to the lasers he couldn`t do it on his own and Riku was covering every other angle which says ALOT considering what omnidirectional means.....

Omnidirectional

Omnidirectional - being in or involving all directions; especially: receiving or sending radio waves equally well in all directions<omnidirectional antenna>

In order for Sora to be MTFL he would have to react to every single one on his own in every direction by the definition and even if he was able to it still wouldn`t be consistent!

4. Also another thing is if you pay close attention to the earlier parts of the same fight, the lasers Xemnas fires at standard are slow and can easily be evaded by either JUMPING OR DEFLECTING and Sora takes more time to even do that with less lasers considering his limb speed. Also if you compare this with Dante`s second fight with Vergil in DMC 1 in which Vergil uses summon swords they move faster, keep track on Dante`s movements and they FOLLOW him as well function for move. On top of that Vergil summons them faster and can summon more than what Xemnas has shown despite Xemnas` supposed speed superiority. That is even more impressive despite Sora encountering lasers that are more so ethereal needles anyway.

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What Vegeta has shown in Battle of Gods when he was just training under GREATER GRAVITY level is far more impressive... That feat would be MFTL in my book if it were Dante and Vergil vs Goku and Vegeta.

Also Sora got blitzed by Roxas and Roxas has never shown or hinted at having MFTL speed.... Neither has Riku either who is supposed to be a close contender....

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Watch entire video

So now we know that Sora by feats and consistency is NOT MTFL.

Durability/Stamina/Healing

Now you either claimed that Sora has never been fatigued or he has been fatigued but only ONCE when both gameplay as well in-game facts would contradict with this claim entirely.

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2:34:09 - Sora is already succumbing to the effects of the Underworld despite Donald and Goofy`s help.

2:35:25 - Sora, Donald and Goofy don`t only pant but they are not even standing! They have limits which contradicts with everything else. Dante usually just pants lightly or heavily but it doesn`t mean he won`t keep going and his enemies are much more impressive which I will get into after this.

2:51:08 - Sora even with Donald and Goofy`s help seemed to be overwhelmed if his stamina as well as endurance his so much more greater than Dante`s then he would of kept on going and especially since he faces the many Heartless later which was in-game and this one was in-cutscene. He couldn`t even handle Pete and his weak Heartless reinforcements.

2:52:20 - 2:53 :42 - Even Hercules the same one who threw the Titans into space within his movie and neither KH games in which they appear has a lot of difficulty in taking down Pete and his fodder Heartless also he needed Sora`s help afterwards. If that was Beowulf or Dante they of wrecked Pete a long time ago....

2:57:10 - Also if Sora teleported in his fight against the Hydra he wouldn`t of needed Pegasus for the remaining heads and the strength part of it doesn`t differ from Dante taking on Echidna who is a lot stronger than the Hydra.

2:55:47 - Goofy got knocked out by a rock and even King Mickey couldn`t hear or perceive when the rock was coming. This happens in cutscene neither does Sora or Donald react fast enough despite all other feats in-game.

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44:20 - 44:38 - Sora couldn`t even atleast run to grab and save Mulan from the slow impending danger in-cutscene while Dante has saved Lucia from explosions that happen in the same moment they happen many times over and he has saved her from Arius` light attack while she was chained by magic all happening in-cutscene.

2:06:30 - Sora gets jumped by regular Heartless and even Kairi had to step in to save him until Riku had to save her, he gave her a Keyblade and she instantly masters it? So.... That`s telling me it doesn`t take much to master a Keyblade even Kairi states that Sora needs help from them in most cases and he actually does receive help MOST of the time furthering that statement, statements are important. Also Kairi receives training to become a Keyblade wielder and master at the end of Dream Drop Distance in the secret ending which takes place after Kingdom Hearts 2 so this does not make any sense....

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Even after his upgrades from Coded to Dream Drop Distance, Sora gets bested by Xemnas and is worn out pretty easily as Xemnas confirms.

Sora could also cut only ONE skyscraper at a time despite the fact many were thrown at him and these ones seemed a little larger or lengthier than the six he cut in KH 2 furthering my fact about Sora`s KH 2 feat not being impressive in the first place. Also he had the backing of TWO Keyblades as well as extra magic (and Riku) to help increase his abilities this is right after KH 2. He gets bested by a non-powered Xemnas and despite his supposed willpower he could not even overcome the Darkness, even as a Keyblade wielder which you have overlooked this foreshadows of course Vanitas but it still doesn`t change what happened and neither does it change the facts of it either. So this alone debunks and discredits everything you have shown thus far in KH 2 also it furthers the fact of what I stated, Sora is inconsistent this can no longer be argued.. Also Sora had a great deal of help in fighting Xemnas yet again which goes back to another fact I pointed out. He needs help most of the time in some shape or form and he has his magic to protect him he doesn`t have it here.... Even if he did it wouldn`t matter in my opinion. He also needed Riku`s help in regards to saving him from his dream state he couldn`t do it on his own unlike Dante who can best the Nightmare (three times) demon who was more impressive, and best reality warping magic on his OWN WILLPOWER.

Dante also has ANOTHER lightspeed reaction and combat feat.... He reacts to the Plasma demons who in the lore channel, manipulate and create light! They fire lasers, although they are composed of electricity they utilize light in their attacks another thing is they can mimic Dante to every movement and to every power-set. On top of that they have the ability to duplicate or split which means Dante has to take on multiple at once.

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9:00 - 9:20

Devil May Cry, Enemy File — Plasma: "Plasma is an embodiment of evil electricity. Thus, the use of Nightmare-β against it is useless. Its ability to manipulate ambient energy will only bend the light, not damaging it at all."

Bosses

Now, no and I mean absolutely NO bosses from any Kingdom Hearts game is on Mundus level. I have proven this already and I`ve beaten every boss within KH 1, 2 and Chain of Memories which are the main-main games that feature Sora as the protagonist. I also have those three games in my possession... The only exception is Xemnas and that is about it. But I will put your comparison to the test of Jafar vs. Mundus....

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1. All he does is throw magma rocks, he never showcases planet creation in-cutscene, in-combat or in-game PERIOD never EVER.

2. He needed his assistant to carry his lamp and it seemed as though he was easily inexperienced when it came to the use of his power.

3. Sora received help as well from Goofy, Donald and Aladdin.

Second fight, it doesn`t get better it gets worse...

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1. All he does is summon lightning, fireballs and use brute strength which Nevan, Savior, Jester and many more have shown to do in the DMC universe with EASE.

2. His realm creation was not even as impressive as what Mundus has shown to do not even by a FRACTION. Also dimension or realm creation is supposed to be more impressive than planet creation, so.... Also this was done in-combat and he does not showcase his planet creation here either and he is easily overwhelmed by blindspots that Sora can easily exploit, also if Sora was as fast or as aerially sharp as he was made out to be he wouldn`t need the magic carpet to navigate, and even then he can still be tagged by a stationary Jafar......

Now lets compare this to what Mundus has done....

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1. Mundus creates a pocket dimension out of thin air. The pocket dimension has stars all around it not a FEW OR SOME but MANY.

2. Creates dragons, and has created all of Dante`s previous boss battles when has Jafar shown such a thing?

3. Summons lightning, meteorites, takes punishment from Dante amped with the Sparda Sword and he can still go toe to toe with him at the volcano and then even to their final confrontation in which he is at his lowest.

4. His pocket dimension has more depth and effects to it which is FAR greater than what Jafar has shown with his and even his planet creation which happened in his movie appearance...

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