Classic Kingpin vs Ultimate Captain America

Rules:

No Prep

In character.

Steve is weaponless and Kingpin has his laser cane.

Fighting distance 10 ft.

Win by KO or Death.

Location:

Fisk was OP back in the 60s and early 70s.

Ult. Cap

Is this classic kingpin with the laser cane or just a regular cane?

Probably Cap, he took on Hulk and that Nazi dude.

@jashro44: Does it matter? Ultimate Cap stomps either way.

Ultimate Cap wins with ease.

Classic Kingpin may have been very durable, but Ult. Cap destroys. He is Better in every way.

Ultimate Cap.

Kingpin is all "Blah blah blah I can stand up to Spider-Man blah blah blah." Ultimate Cap can just respond, "And I have withstood the might of the Hulk and beat the snot out of the might of Giant-Man." And then beat the fat off Fisk.

Ultimate Captain America.

Well classic Peter did need to use webbing to disarm him with the laser cane. And he did match classic Peters strength, was strong enough to rip and crush steel, durable enough that when someone tried to kill kingpin by ramming him with a car he ended up in the hospital but the car was destroyed and the driver killed as a result of ramming into his muscles, he stomped captain america, and he also stomped punisher who was armed with a knife, he stomped daredevil (arguably weakened due to all the effort he put moving the vault that kingpin just threw open) by having daredevil punch himself out.

Not sure if its a stomp since Kingpin is limited to classic showings.

@jashro44: All trump classic King Pin, by a mile.

Gallery

1) Smashing Tigra so hard to shatter a solid stone column.

2) Lifting a car as well a much heavier lair of concrete and solid earth in a close to 5 ton feat.

3) Stalemates Peter Parker who is a casual 6 toner by bios, maxes at 9 tons. You can see both seen struggling to hold the other like you shown.

4) Catches a 5+ ton falling tree in mid fall.

5) Catches Valkyries fist, even though she is Asgardian in strength, and she has block blows from a blood lusted Thor with no problem.

6) Blocks a fatal attack by Zarda , who is Hyperion's equal in the Supreme verse. Unlike 616 Steve's shield, 1610 Steve's shield does not disperse kinetic force, its all Caps muscles and strength hold against that blow.

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1) Cap KOes Juggernaut with a head bash. This is after Juggernaut wailed on Steve for a time.

2) Cap one shots Juggernaut before with a kick to the head.

3) Cap strength and shield busted Warmachine into a KO in 5 seconds flat.

4) Putting down Hulk as you shown already. We discussed this.

All this is better than his trength and stricking feats. By a mile :)

Captain America suffered no physical damage from this Iron man slam. He was KOed, but the tons of tranqs pumped in him played a role for sure.

Ultimate Cap slammed by a charging Warmachine through a city bridge, and is not KO at all. He was still fighting, and had no damage to him.

Abomination stated as strong as Hulk was during the first two transformations smashes Steve hard, then throws him through a wall. Steve is fine.

Gallery

Cap blocks a blood lusted Thor hit, flies some distance, and is sent through a skycraper. He is fine. Chris nor Wesker have anything on these feats my friend.

This alone trumps anything Classic Kingpin went up against IMO.

Kleiser is able to smash in reinforce, and super think bunker doors like a joke.

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Here Kleiser tanks a full on fighter jet hitting him, and smashing him in Jet Fuel for a major blast of super heated flames. He is merely upset.

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Kleiser here tanks many blows from murderous Hulk, and smashes Hulk with a easy 10+ ton military cargo truck.

Gallery

In this whole battle we see the skill level, and crazy regen of Kleiser, even having his head nearly blown off, or cut in half.

Ultimate cap uses Fisk as a punching bag.

Laser cane

@sirfizzwhizz:

1) Smashing Tigra so hard to shatter a solid stone column.

Fisk pushed spider-man through a concrete wall:

Gallery

2) Lifting a car as well a much heavier lair of concrete and solid earth in a close to 5 ton feat.

As I said Kingpin has ripped steel, it was a rather large scafold:

3) Stalemates Peter Parker who is a casual 6 toner by bios, maxes at 9 tons. You can see both seen struggling to hold the other like you shown.

There are scans above of kingpin matching Peter (from an awkward position admittedly) but he has done it on other occasions, even going so far as to flat out overpower classic Peter basically. Peter had to fake his way out of kingpins grip:

Gallery

He also matched Peters strength in an earlier issue as well:

Gallery

4) Catches a 5+ ton falling tree in mid fall.

This is an impressive feat. I will just post kingpin crushing a steel chair effortlessly.

5) Catches Valkyries fist, even though she is Asgardian in strength, and she has block blows from a blood lusted Thor with no problem.

6) Blocks a fatal attack by Zarda , who is Hyperion's equal in the Supreme verse. Unlike 616 Steve's shield, 1610 Steve's shield does not disperse kinetic force, its all Caps muscles and strength hold against that blow.

I've argued these feats before with you. I wont readdress them again all I will say is that unless cap is in the same tier as thor these feats don't add up. Cap used his shield in the latter showing. In terms of striking kingpin doesn't have a lot. You can see he did punch and shake the scaffold with a punch in the above scans. Aside from that being able to harm spider-man and knock the wind out of him. In fact one time he actually sent spider-man flying across a room, into furniture even though classic Peter attempted to block his hit with his arm:

Gallery

Cap probably does hit harder with the shield. I think kingpin is comparable in terms of strength though.

As for the rest of your scans cap was knocked out in the first scan to be fair. The tranqs may have helped but I am not sure how badly damaged caps body was? Cap does have a healing factor so there is that. The warmachine feat might surpass kingpins durability admittedly but what happened to Nick Fury? Also it looks like the soldier was grabbing onto a ledge that was at the explosion as well? The feat might look more impressive than it is. As for abomination he told the colonel that cap was "all his" so he likely wasn't trying to kill him. The thor feat is pretty cool. All though in terms of durability kingpin was tanking spider-mans hits, even when Peter punched him at the speed of sub machine gunfire....Kingpin was conscious afterwards.

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I will also concede that cap is probably more skillful which is why I give him the win but I think the general consensus is ultimate cap would beat 616 cap in a good fight. However cap needed to be saved by Falcon against classic Kingpin:

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Ultimate cap probably does win due to being more skillful, and being as strong and durable to maybe being a bit stronger and more durable than classic kingpin, and not to mention unlike the foes kingpin fights cap is willing to fight dirty. All though with that said I do think Fisk can surprise ultimate cap with his stats. Often times in the classic era people would underestimate kingpin due to his appearance and assume he is all fat and not realize he is pure muscle; and that he is also very fast and agile for a man his size. Plus the laser Cane does add another element of surprise to the mix. As would the gas if kingpin has that here. I don't think its a total stomp. If it were modern kingpin it would be. Here I think Kingpins biggest asset is surprise. I don't believe ultimate cap knows ultimate kingpin but I could be wrong.

Does kingpin also get the gas flower thing?

Yep

Unless someone shows me scans of classic Fisk going toe to toe with the Hulk then I'm going Ultimate Cap.

That is some silly logic(No offense). Jesus will people take a high feat and run away with it...Hulk broke that nicka's arm anyway.

Ult Cap wins, but not because of Hulk or GTFO logic.

@gothamciti: Really good idea for a fight . . . I'm gonna say Cap

he's quicker, he has an undeniable determination . . . And yet Kingpin has gone toe-to-toe with Spider-man, who has super strength

But a few hits to the head with his shield and maybe tripping him off the roof, Cap'll take it

Thanks

Ok, then if someone shows me a scan of Classic Fisk KO'ing Giant Man then I'll also change my opinion. The fight with Hulk wasn't just some out of nowhere high end feat. Ultimate Cap consistently hanged with people out of his weight class.

@cyberzombie_hatchetman:

Ok, then if someone shows me a scan of Classic Fisk KO'ing Giant Man then I'll also change my opinion. The fight with Hulk wasn't just some out of nowhere high end feat. Ultimate Cap consistently hanged with people out of his weight class.

That logic still doesn't work and you're ignoring the scans someone already posted of King Pin matching classic Spidey's strength. Ult Cap can't actually beat Ult Hulk nor actually compete with Ult Hulk so there is no point in bringing up high end feats. Open a thread of even Grey Hulk vs Ult Cap and you'll still be laughed off. Basically along your logic a street lever can't beat Wolverine or Ult Cap type characters no matter the circumstances or gear if they aren't shown to fight class 100s. That's why that logic is silly. King Pin has lasers in his pimp cane and he has knockout gas in his flower on his chest, each are at least decent options to help fight cap. Cap, wins, but not because of the high end feat logic you are running by.

Show me character fighting ____ or GTFO logic doesn't work. Each fight is under unique circumstances and the gear and tactics of each fighter help shape the outcome.

"Show me character fighting ____ or GTFO" is a demonstration of something we on Comic Vine like to call feats. Cap has a shield throw that can hurt Hulk and is a move he likes to lead with. If that fails he has punches that have at least had a noticeable affect Hulk and Giant Man. He has also taken punches from Hulk (who tore Wolverine in half btw) and was still able to fight. Spider-Man doesn't have Hulk's durability or strength. Not even close. Classic Fisk has never fought anyone who has that kind of durability and strength. What's the strongest opponent Fisk's laser has hurt? Can it penetrate Cap's shield? Would Fisk's gas work on someone with an advanced metabolism like someone with super soldier serum? If it had affected someone who has something like regeneration (maybe someone like Wolverine for example) then I would say it's a possibility. I don't know. If it has I would like to see scans of this so I can have an informed opinion. With the information I have now based on feats both have shown in H2H combat I have to go with Captain America. Fisk has some impressive showings against Spider-Man but Ultimate Cap has dealt with far more impressive opponents than Classic Spider-Man. As Ultimate Cap has these fights on panel, he has the more impressive feats. Because Fisk has not fought as impressive opponents as Cap he doesn't have the feats.

From Classic Fisk's feats I see nothing to lead me to believe that he could compete with Ultimate Cap. He would need to have fought stronger and more durable opponents to show me that he can significantly hurt Cap and not be instantly KO's by him to have the feats to do so.

My favorite part of your post is when you lead by saying look at the scans between Kingpin and Spider-Man then end it by saying each fight is unique and Fisk has all this stuff that Hulk or Giant Man doesn't have. Well Spider-Man is also a lot different from Captain America. How come Fisk fighting Spider-Man is a valid feat to be used in a thread about Fisk vs. Ult. Cap.? Cap doesn't have webbing. He can't stick to walls. He doesn't have spider sense. Peter doesn't have super soldier serum and an unbreakable shield. They're different characters dude. Apples and oranges.

If we don't use fights characters have with other fights then we don't have feats to compare with.

@lukehero: actually Ultimate Cap could beat Grey Hulk much like he had Assembly. Assembly had the super powers of Hulk, Giant Man, and Cap. Durable enough to beat Juggernaut empowered Rogue, and Iceman easy. Cap decap him with his shield.

Just sayng.

Add to this Ultimate Cap beat down the Juggernaut twice, Warmachine was taken down, Herr Kleiser, and the Avengers themselves.... Yeah he is consistently better than Teenage Spider Man ever was.

Also to finish this, Spider Man holds back, fighting him is not as impressive.

Nope, when Kingpin was retconned to being just a "strong" human, him contending against Peter was washed away into Peter holding back. But they are numerous instances of Peter trying very hard against Kingpin, even going as far as to web-sling kick him with all he has, and Kingpin not even being knocked out, but rather being knocked down. Kingpin's creators also alleged designed him to originally have Spider-Man's strength and durability, but they backed out of the idea before they could explicitly say so and give an explanation as to why. This was also around the time he shifted to being more of a Daredevil villain (who is Peak Human), and when operating as Spider-Man Villian, being someone who pulls the strings rather than confronts Kingpin directly (Ala Back in Black).

It would probably be better to argue that Classic Peter generally wasn't as formidable as Peter today, I think Ultimate Captain America would beat Classic Peter personally.

@laflux: Classic Peter had a hard time with a weak villain cast, and got own by Punisher.

@cyberzombie_hatchetman:

"Show me character fighting ____ or GTFO" is a demonstration of something we on Comic Vine like to call feats.

No that's someone demanding you show a certain type of character fighting a certain type of character to prove they can beat this or that character: ABC logic.

When did I say Fisk would beat Ult Cap? You're long winded rant ignores the fact I said Ult Cap would win, just not based on the form of logic you are using. Did you even read my post? Apparently not because you are harping on the Fisk vs Ult Cap argument.

If we don't use fights characters have with other fights then we don't have feats to compare with.

Who here is arguing against using feats? I'm telling you your original logic and reasoning as to why Ult Cap wins is incorrect. Let's go back to what this conversation between us was originally about.

Incorrect logic and reasoning. Even if Fisk had fought a Hulk like character it wouldn't even necessarily mean something against Ult Cap. ABC: A. This guy fought this guy, so B. So This Guy can beat that guy. That line of reasoning never works.

• A. Wolverine has beaten Thing Twice.
• B. Spiderman could never actually beat Thing.
• C. Thing is a bigger threat than Spiderman.
• D. Wolverine >>> Spiderman.

Never did I say Fisk would beat Cap, I said your line of reasoning was wrong and I just gave an example why you can't use that form of troublesome ABC logic. You keep harping on the Fisk vs Ult Cap argument, but that ignores my posts and the fact I already said Ult Cap would beat Fisk.

@sirfizzwhizz: You still wouldn't make a thread of Cap vs Grey Hulk. Nor can Cap actually ever be a threat to Ult Hulk.

Also to finish this, Spider Man holds back, fighting him is not as impressive.

Holding back as he was being crushed? He's not a dirty fighting killer, but he is strong and Fisk has shown he had a enough strength to match him. Anyway it doesn't matter since Fisk vs Ult Cap isn't even my main point in this. My main point is detailed above and I think I've repeatedly explained myself.

Not really. In Punisher's first appearance, he has intel on Peter thanks to the Jackal, uses a super strong cable gun to tie Peter up. Peter breaks free of the cable, and wails on Punisher until Jackal attacks Peter from behind, causing him to fall off the building they where fighting on. Later on, Punisher then ambushes Peter and kicks him in the face (which is the scan people usually post out of context), before Peter reacts by blitzing around the room and cannonballing into him knocking him out.

In The Punisher Strikes back, his second major appearance in Spider-Man has Peter and Punisher actually trading blows, before realizing that Tarantula and his lackey was the common enemy. What many people often leave out is that Peter was actually recovering from two Tarantula stings, one of which is instantly fatal to any normal human being.

Punisher has beaten Peter before, but I think those showing are later than what I would classify as Classic (anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

....

As for the rest I more or less agree. Comics around the 60's and 70's where dictated by more rigorous rules than they where today. I think Saren said it was called the code or something like that. Which meant there was a cap on how violent and formidable villians (and heroes could be). For example, the reason why Morbious the Living Vampire was created was because real Vampires where banned by regulation for being inherently to adult orientated.

@laflux: Yeah, what you're talking about is legit called the Comic Code. It's insane some of the rules they use to have.

And it is kinda cool because Ultimate peter was superior due to the way more mature and ruthless villains he face vs 616 Peter as a teenager. Comic Code is part of canon :)

Shield give's Cap an advantage to win. Without the shield, I'd side with KP.

cap always finds a way.

EDIT: Removing Steve's shield to give Kingpin more of a chance.

Ult Cap is no joke