Classic Juggernaut vs Blackheart (No BFR Allowed)

• NO BFR
• Battle until exhaustion
• Using Juggernaut when he fought Nightmare
• Using Blackheart when he fought the X-Men

No BFR!

One can not simply defeat Juggernaut without BFR.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

No BFR!

Can Blackheart warp reality or cutoff his power to Cyttorak?

@fondofpacman said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

No BFR!

Can Blackheart warp reality or cutoff his power to Cyttorak?

Nightmare couldn't do it. D'Spayre was close to doing it, but Cain's control over it was more powerful.

@TheSecondOpinion:

Then I guess Juggernaut wins given enough time, if Blackheart is vulnerable to Cain's physical attacks and minor magics, I don't know alot about him.

blackheart stomps.
 
he has immense magical and mystical powers over reality and dimension including energy projections and manifestations, magical shields, intangibility, invisibility, control over the elements and matter as well as darkforce energy, summoning legions of demonic hordes and creatures, healing and repairing matter and living tissue, manipulating minds by telepathic means, and even telekinesis, casting illusions, teleportation, dimensional travel, and cast shape-shifting. he can also steal juggernaut's soul

Juggernaut wins ! 

@kcaz said:

blackheart stomps. he has immense magical and mystical powers over reality and dimension including energy projections and manifestations, magical shields, intangibility, invisibility, control over the elements and matter as well as darkforce energy, summoning legions of demonic hordes and creatures, healing and repairing matter and living tissue, manipulating minds by telepathic means, and even telekinesis, casting illusions, teleportation, dimensional travel, and cast shape-shifting. he can also steal juggernaut's soul

So getting a bunch of powers off a wiki and then posting them here without even posting the extent Blackheart can use his powers, and limits etc. might not exactly be the best thing to do......

I am going to make a case for Blackheart.

Firstly, it has to be noted, Juggernaut is vulnerable to magic. Not as vulnerable to magic in like say Superman but magic has been shown to harm him consistently, and thats something Blackheart has a lot off, heck every attack Blackheart has is connected to hell and magic in one way or the other..

Although i know its a little out of character for a smug as hell demon, but he has intangibility, not seeing how juggernaut could hurt him,regardless of his strength.

Also given the fact that he was said to have soul manipulation, on par with Memphisto i think he could rip out Juggernaut's soul. Is he immune to that? I certainly havent seen that before.

Blackheart can win provided he doesnt have the jobber aura (and plz for the love of god, dont bring Daredevil beating Blackheart on earth, whoever wrote that should be first shot in the head, then brought back to life and the circle continued till one gets bored).

@Killemall said:

I am going to make a case for BlackHeart.

Firstly, it has to be noted, Juggernaut is vulnerable to magic. Not not as vulnerable to magic in like say Superman but magic has been shown to harm him consistently, and thats something Blackheart as a lot off.

Although i know its a little out of character for a smug as hell demon, but he has intangibility, not see how regardless of his strength how juggernaut could hurt him.

Also given the fact that he was said to have soul manipulation, on par with Memphisto i think he could rip out Juggernaut's soul. He is immune to that? I certainly havent seen that before.

Blackheart can win provided he doesnt have the jobber aura (and plz for the love of god, dont bring Daredevil beating Blackheart on earth, whoever wrote that should be first shot in the head, then brought back to life and the circle continued till one gets bored).

You forgot to mention his TK is powerful enough to rip a planet in half. I say he just rips the helmet off, mind rapes him, and wins withing ten seconds.

@nickthedevil said:

You forgot to mention his TK is powerful enough to rip a planet in half. I say he just rips the helmet off, mind rapes him, and wins withing ten seconds.

I have never seen him use TP against anyone before, he tried and failed against GR. Has he done it before. Coz if yes, then totally :)

@Killemall said:

@nickthedevil said:

You forgot to mention his TK is powerful enough to rip a planet in half. I say he just rips the helmet off, mind rapes him, and wins withing ten seconds.

I have never seen him use TP against anyone before, he tried and failed against GR. Has he done it before. Coz if yes, then totally :)

He has. yet not at that scale. Mephisto himself said his TK was powerful enough to rip a planet in half though.

@nickthedevil said:

He has. yet not at that scale. Mephisto himself said his TK was powerful enough to rip a planet in half though.

LOL i am asking TP. I know he has controlled crowd (which i interpreted as emotional manipulation), not TK. I have seen him rip a giant bus into two with his TK, so even if he cant rip a planet into half (maybe he can i dont know), he should have no problem ripping his helmet into half.

@Killemall: Oh, TP, yeah. He did it against Deadpool, I think...

@nickthedevil said:

@Killemall: Oh, TP, yeah. He did it against Deadpool, I think...

Well if he has, Blackheart stomps then ;)

@nickthedevil said:

@Killemall said:

I am going to make a case for BlackHeart.

Firstly, it has to be noted, Juggernaut is vulnerable to magic. Not not as vulnerable to magic in like say Superman but magic has been shown to harm him consistently, and thats something Blackheart as a lot off.

Although i know its a little out of character for a smug as hell demon, but he has intangibility, not see how regardless of his strength how juggernaut could hurt him.

Also given the fact that he was said to have soul manipulation, on par with Memphisto i think he could rip out Juggernaut's soul. He is immune to that? I certainly havent seen that before.

Blackheart can win provided he doesnt have the jobber aura (and plz for the love of god, dont bring Daredevil beating Blackheart on earth, whoever wrote that should be first shot in the head, then brought back to life and the circle continued till one gets bored).

You forgot to mention his TK is powerful enough to rip a planet in half. I say he just rips the helmet off, mind rapes him, and wins withing ten seconds.

You forget that Cain's soul belongs to Cyttorak.

@Killemall said:

@nickthedevil said:

@Killemall: Oh, TP, yeah. He did it against Deadpool, I think...

Well if he has, Blackheart stomps then ;)

I'm pretty sure Nightmare and D'Sparye's telepathy are stronger than Blackheart's.

Also, Balckheart can't just barge in Cain's mind without the risk of freeing Cyttorak. That's why Phoenix and Xavier were ALWAYS cautious and precise when traveling in the depths of his mind.

Not to mention, people on this site always seem to forget just how powerful Cain's mind is too.

It all depends on whether or not Blackheart can get his helmet off. That's no easy task though, its taken entire crews of X-Men going all out just to give a telepath as 2 second opening

Reading Juggs mind is different then attacking his mind. If BH can get his helmet off then, he wins. also, juggs can be KO'ed with enough force. and does Juggs soul belong to Cytorak? Hasn't Juggs resisted Cytorak before? and i'm thinking BH can negate Juggs power like Thor did without a time limit

Juggs has invulnerability and immense strength, assuming the Helmet doesn't come off what else can Blackheart to do counter Juggs?

@pooty: Yeah, good point. Juggs has resisted Cyttorak, so either his soul doesn't really belong to Cyttorak (which explains why Juggs can enforce his own will) and Blackheart can win by ripping his soul out, or Cyttorak completely owns Juggernaut and is just extremely incompetent whenever Juggs goes against him.

And if Blackheart has decent reality warping power and physical strength, he can definitely get that helmet off and start messing with Jugg's head, mind-control has long been Juggs Achilles heel if I remember correctly...why else would he wear that helmet?

@fondofpacman said:

@pooty: Yeah, good point. Juggs has resisted Cyttorak, so either his soul doesn't really belong to Cyttorak (which explains why Juggs can enforce his own will) and Blackheart can win by ripping his soul out, or Cyttorak completely owns Juggernaut and is just extremely incompetent whenever Juggs goes against him.

And if Blackheart has decent reality warping power and physical strength, he can definitely get that helmet off and start messing with Jugg's head, mind-control has long been Juggs Achilles heel if I remember correctly...why else would he wear that helmet?

Yeah, but let's not forget that Cyttorak is both benevolent AND malevolent. He granted Cain free will, but his body and power are Cyttorak's being a walking Crimson Bands of a fraction of a fraction of Cyttorak's essence. He's stated this a few times. Once being during the Onslaught Saga, Again after the epilogue of the Next Onslaught Saga, again during WWH and once again during Fear Itself. He also made a short reference of it to Dr. Strange during the War of the Seven Spheres/Infinity War sagas. During the epilogue of the Onslaught Saga, Cyttorak told Cain why Onslaught could not effect him directly. Digging too deep in his mind would lead Onslaught into the Crimson Cosmos and didn't want to risk that so instead used Cain's fear to have the Cosmos swallow him up instead. Cain had to part-take a trial to see if his will was worthy to get him his powers back. Onslaught knew this.

And Cyttorak does protect Cain's soul so long as Cain's free will allows it too.

Proof:

Remember the instance with Kuurth?

When Kuurth was provoking Cain to join with the serpent's cause, the narrator states, "Cain could have used the power of Cyttorak to cast out the possessor, but Cain's will chose not to."

Also, Cyttorak does NOT care about stealing souls because it doesn't benefit him. Those instances where Cain fights Cyttoraks ((as you two dubbedas "Cain resisting Cyttorak")) is nothing more but a trail to prove Cain's worthiness of keeping the power of the Crimson Bands.

Those are just trials.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trial

And through those trials lives the curse of bondage between Cain's soul and Cyttorak. So in essence, Cain's soul does belong to Cyttorak's, however.... Cyttorak allows Cain free will. But if Cain wants to keep his Juggernaut powers, his soul must by its free will, allow Cyttorak to protect him.

And If there's still doubt, we can just simply compare those who have already fought Juggernaut with soul altering powers comparible or more powerful than Blackheart's such as Nightmare, D'Spayre, and Oblivion..... Three of which who are more powerful than Blackheart and even more so the Serpent himself.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: But if Cain wants to keep his Juggernaut powers, his soul must by its free will, allow Cyttorak to protect him

Those are your words. so Cyttorak does not own Cain's soul. Cain can repel him and Cain would lose his powers. Cyttorak controls Juggs power but not Cain's soul.

@pooty said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: But if Cain wants to keep his Juggernaut powers, his soul must by its free will, allow Cyttorak to protect him

Those are your words. so Cyttorak does not own Cain's soul. Cain can repel him and Cain would lose his powers. Cyttorak controls Juggs power but not Cain's soul.

That's because Cyttorak has multiple aspects, and he allows Cain to have free will because it does not benefit Cyttorak to take souls as I have already mentioned.

• If Cain wants Cyttorak to protect his soul from other entities, it will.
• If Cain wants Cyttorak to take control of his body, it will
• If Cain wants Cyttorak to not take control of his body, Cyttorak will allow that too because he wants Juggernaut to have a free will anyway.
• If Cain wants to access more power, Cyttorak creates a trial to prove Cain's worth of that power is really what he (Cain) desires.

And if Cain refuses Cyttorak, it's not Cain 'repelling' it, its actually the opposite way around, and Cyttorak turns away from Cain.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@pooty said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: But if Cain wants to keep his Juggernaut powers, his soul must by its free will, allow Cyttorak to protect him

Those are your words. so Cyttorak does not own Cain's soul. Cain can repel him and Cain would lose his powers. Cyttorak controls Juggs power but not Cain's soul.

That's because Cyttorak has multiple aspects, and he allows Cain to have free will because it does not benefit Cyttorak to take souls as I have already mentioned.

• If Cain wants Cyttorak to protect his soul from other entities, it will.
• If Cain wants Cyttorak to take control of his body, it will
• If Cain wants Cyttorak to not take control of his body, Cyttorak will allow that too because he wants Juggernaut to have a free will anyway.
• If Cain wants to access more power, Cyttorak creates a trial to prove Cain's worth of that power is really what he (Cain) desires.

And if Cain refuses Cyttorak, it's not Cain 'repelling' it, its actually the opposite way around, and Cyttorak turns away from Cain.

You said "You forget that Cain's soul belongs to Cyttorak." Then you say Cain has to "want" that. Then you say "It does not benefit Cyttorac to take souls". So no matter how you cut it, Cain's soul does NOT belong to cyttorak. Cain has a choice.

BH wins in time. He can TK his hlemet and Mind Rape him. His TP been enough to break thru some of the Top Tier Psyker easy. Also his Manipulation of any curropted Souls is absolute. Marko Soul is VERY Curropted.

Finaly There is NOTHING that Juggs can do to beat Blackheart.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: I says Cain can "resist the possessor", so although I don't doubt that it's implying that he has mental defenses he can deploy against mind-control and such, the word "resist" implies that it's not an absolute defense.

And because it appears that Cain may have no effective means of attacking Blackheart, Blackheart would likely get several opportunities to mind-rape Juggernaut, and given enough tries, I think he'd eventually succeed.

@CadenceV2:

Do you ever recall ever saying this?

@CadenceV2 said:

Im Incline to Agree. Seriously. Looking at the 2 Mephisto is 1 of many Hell Lords and been around after the Eldar Gods fled earth. He for major feats have Held Galactus at bay in his own Realm, Co Created the Ghost Rider in Jhonny, Beaten Zarathos, Defeated Doom many times for his Mother Soul, Created Black Heart, and cause trouble for Thor/SS/Doc Strange, and turn back time for Spider Man.

Nightmare is 1 of many Fear Lords and been around after the Eldar Gods fled earth. His major feats include imprisoning Eternity, nearly dragging the World into his Nightmare Dimension, Freeing Zarathos from Mephistos control, besting Doom as well, using Hulk during a Night Terror, causing problems for Strange/Clea/Ghost Riders, and thru events like 9/11 he can be more empowered than he would on average.

So honestly there both really close in power.

Well... He actually imprisoned Eternity twice that I know of.

1. 1st time, was through a dream. His objective was to use force Eternity the key to the Waking world so he can drag the waking word into his realm. Dr. Strange stopped him after being concerned that Nightmare actually did put the lights out literally off Eternity.
2. 2nd time, Nightmare did the exact same thing, but this time he was prepared for Strange and used the Eye of Agamotto against Strange to prevent him from interfering this time. As Nightmare (as big as a solar system) was literally grabbing PAST and FUTURE Earth and crushing them under his hands with ease, he left the PRESENT DAY EARTH to crush next. Dr. Strange summoned his trump card....

3. It was the Juggernaut!

Gallery

Nightmare's power stats:

And as Juggernaut fought the Lord of Darkness and Perception, Juggernaut continuously was getting stronger as Nightmare was gradually getting weaker. If that battle kept on, it was assured that Juggernaut was winning that battle. He shrunk a Nightmare bigger than Earth, so yes, there is something Juggernaut can do to affect Blackheart.

Mind control, suggestions and Telepathy are nearly rendered moot when against a serious minded Cain. (Jobbering; yes.... But serious oriented; No.....)

Also, Blackheart, like his father would throw out astral projections of himself while being at another location.... Nope, won't work against Juggernaut....

He'll summon the real you exactly to his spot. There's no escape.

No to mention, Cain may have a corrupted soul, but his Will Power is immense. Too much for Blackheart to handle without extreme effort, otherwise Nightmare, D'Spayre would have done that already and Oblivion would have easily erased his soul.

@pooty said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@pooty said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: But if Cain wants to keep his Juggernaut powers, his soul must by its free will, allow Cyttorak to protect him

Those are your words. so Cyttorak does not own Cain's soul. Cain can repel him and Cain would lose his powers. Cyttorak controls Juggs power but not Cain's soul.

That's because Cyttorak has multiple aspects, and he allows Cain to have free will because it does not benefit Cyttorak to take souls as I have already mentioned.

• If Cain wants Cyttorak to protect his soul from other entities, it will.
• If Cain wants Cyttorak to take control of his body, it will
• If Cain wants Cyttorak to not take control of his body, Cyttorak will allow that too because he wants Juggernaut to have a free will anyway.
• If Cain wants to access more power, Cyttorak creates a trial to prove Cain's worth of that power is really what he (Cain) desires.

And if Cain refuses Cyttorak, it's not Cain 'repelling' it, its actually the opposite way around, and Cyttorak turns away from Cain.

You said "You forget that Cain's soul belongs to Cyttorak." Then you say Cain has to "want" that. Then you say "It does not benefit Cyttorac to take souls". So no matter how you cut it, Cain's soul does NOT belong to cyttorak. Cain has a choice.

Yes, he has a choice. A choice granted by Cyttorak.

It's just like your "Faith" Threads.

Do you have free will, or does God grant you that Free will granted that it can take it away from you anytime it wants?

So yes.... Cain has free will, but that doesn't mean that his soul is necessarily free.

See what I mean?

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: Jugernaut has plenty of awsome high end and beyond his normal showing feats.

Exaples of this are 8th Day Trion Juggs. The point is avergae Juggernaut has little to no control of his powers. He bashes things till they go away. BH on the other hand has used vary and mutiple means to win battles. He also has many more powers. BH is greater threat than Nightmare who need MASSIVE amount of Prep and time to be as powerful as he can get. BH needs almost little or no time.

Gallery

A Blast from BH without being there. Casual Blast of BH!

Gallery

Blackheart empowers himself while damaging his enemies via Black Thunder.

Gallery

Dare Devil is usaly Immune to illussians. Not BHs tho.....

Gallery

BH Mind Controls via Curroption a entire Town of people.

Gallery

BH rips open the Earth with TK or other magic form of power to send someone to hell.

BH uses his mind powers to contact and foll a powerful Telepath into freeing him while being tortured.

Gallery

BH effortlessly battle Spidey and DD while Black Thunder rips apart the Amusment Park down.

Gallery

BH shows Intangibility and turning beings into Daemons while he battle F4 and Mech Mage.

Gallery

Great feat of BH having 3 DIFFERENT conversations at once via Telepathy.

Gallery

BHs Dark Thunder.

Gallery

BH beats Red Hulk and Venom Easy.

Gallery

After a drag out match with the F4 and Mechmage BH then contends with fellow Hell Lord and rival Son of Satan! After all this is finnaly BH Banished.

So what I have posted here?

1) TP beyond Xaviers.

2) Strength past Red Hulks and Venom together. Strength past the entire F4, Crystal, and Mechmage combined.

3) Durability to withstand 100+ hits.

4) Dark Thunder that disentegrates targets.

5) Turn people into daemons.

6) Travel between Dimensions with ease.

7) Intangibility

9) Earth ripping Magic or TK

10) Healing Factor in reforming a body from mush.

11) Blasts that destroy the Harbor of New York.

12) Illusians that can fool DD Radar Sense.

Wow thats alot for Juggernauts simple Smash and Throw powers......

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: Do you have free will, or does God grant you that Free will granted that it can take it away from you anytime it wants?

Yes i have free will. I have read nothing in any Bible that says God can take our free will away.

Cain has free will, but that doesn't mean that his soul is necessarily free

Free will is different from owning your soul. Your soul is the spirit that inhabits your body. That is what Blackheart steals. Without your soul you are inanimate. I'm saying Cytorak does not own Cain's soul. When Cain dies his soul is not going to Cytorak. Even with the free will part, Cain and Cytorak seem to have a mutual agreement. Neither can force the other against their will. Cytorak doesn't want a person without free will and Cytorak doesn't collect souls. You are saying that Cytorak "could" own his soul or free will. What proof is there of that?

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: So we are talking about the Juggernaut that fought Nightmare and the Juggernaut that fought the X-men? So are we talking two separate battles here? And I think @pooty just wants some more scans regarding Cyttorak's influence over Cain if you can find any, because that can be pretty relevant here.

And in the Marvel Universe, IMO "soul" tends to mean a non-physical consciousness (regarding something definable, like Dr. Strange's astral projection for example), which is something that can physically be manipulated...and though this might not make sense in reality, but in Marvel that's what it seems to be.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@pooty said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@pooty said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: But if Cain wants to keep his Juggernaut powers, his soul must by its free will, allow Cyttorak to protect him

Those are your words. so Cyttorak does not own Cain's soul. Cain can repel him and Cain would lose his powers. Cyttorak controls Juggs power but not Cain's soul.

That's because Cyttorak has multiple aspects, and he allows Cain to have free will because it does not benefit Cyttorak to take souls as I have already mentioned.

• If Cain wants Cyttorak to protect his soul from other entities, it will.
• If Cain wants Cyttorak to take control of his body, it will
• If Cain wants Cyttorak to not take control of his body, Cyttorak will allow that too because he wants Juggernaut to have a free will anyway.
• If Cain wants to access more power, Cyttorak creates a trial to prove Cain's worth of that power is really what he (Cain) desires.

And if Cain refuses Cyttorak, it's not Cain 'repelling' it, its actually the opposite way around, and Cyttorak turns away from Cain.

You said "You forget that Cain's soul belongs to Cyttorak." Then you say Cain has to "want" that. Then you say "It does not benefit Cyttorac to take souls". So no matter how you cut it, Cain's soul does NOT belong to cyttorak. Cain has a choice.

Yes, he has a choice. A choice granted by Cyttorak.

It's just like your "Faith" Threads.

Do you have free will, or does God grant you that Free will granted that it can take it away from you anytime it wants?

So yes.... Cain has free will, but that doesn't mean that his soul is necessarily free.

See what I mean?

Yes, lets all discuss theology.

@OneDoesNotSimplyWalkIntoMordor said:

One can not simply defeat Juggernaut without BFR.

bump

Juggernaut.

My Research Has Juggernaut winning this war