Classic ION and Spectre vs White Crown Phoenix and Odin

Spectre solos

Spectre solos

@czarny_samael666 said:

@Dex_Starr said:

Spectre solos

WPotC > Spectre, until You can prove that Spectre can destroy universes

This is a lot like saying "Gladiator > Superman, until you can prove Superman can destroy planets", and it's inane for the same reasons. Firstly, to the best of my knowledge the Phoenix has never actually destroyed a universe. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. It's best feat is telekinetically controlling an entire universe. Spectre purged Anti-Life from creation. I've written essays about this on that Phoenix Force vs Spectre thread, but the point is that based on feats, the PF and it's avatars have got nothing on the full powered Spectre. The PF has a string of embarrassing losses like no other.

How about this?

Spectre > Phoenix, until you can prove an EMP can shatter Spectre into a billion pieces and leave him in hibernation for a hundred and fifty years.

Team One, please.

@CitizenBane said:

How about this?

Spectre > Phoenix, until you can prove an EMP can shatter Spectre into a billion pieces and leave him in hibernation for a hundred and fifty years.

actually that was PIS.. in short, the Phoenix wanted Jean to die so that she can be reborn 150 years in the future.. part of what the Phoenix called "Coordinated Disinfection".. it was all planned..

@lord_oraculous016 said:

@CitizenBane said:

How about this?

Spectre > Phoenix, until you can prove an EMP can shatter Spectre into a billion pieces and leave him in hibernation for a hundred and fifty years.

actually that was PIS.. in short, the Phoenix wanted Jean to die so that she can be reborn 150 years in the future.. part of what the Phoenix called "Coordinated Disinfection".. it was all planned..

Sure. And the part where Wolverine weakened the Phoenix Force after stabbing it repeatedly after it was nearly killed by an event horizon is PIS too. And the part where Martinex restrained it with tech is PIS too. Or the part where it supposedly has limitless energy but needs Scott's optic beams to survive, that's PIS too. Seriously, Phoenix has done nothing to put it above Spectre.

This is why bad writing makes these arguments so difficult. Because all of these characters have ultra high showings that are universal level, but then also have showings that are just idiotic.

Conceptually, not talking feats here, it would appear the "Avenging Wrath of God" and the "Prime Universal Life Force and Source of All Psionic Energy" would be be way above Ion(living embodiment of willpower) and Odin(skyfather). It would all just come down to how much backing does Spectre have from the Pressence. Anything less than near 99% would make it difficult.

@CitizenBane said:

Sure. And the part where Wolverine weakened the Phoenix Force after stabbing it repeatedly after it was nearly killed by an event horizon is PIS too. And the part where Martinex restrained it with tech is PIS too. Or the part where it supposedly has limitless energy but needs Scott's optic beams to survive, that's PIS too. Seriously, Phoenix has done nothing to put it above Spectre.

in a sense yes.. when Logan asked Jean that why is it that despite her power, why would the Phoenix let her die, Jean said it is because the PF is judging her too.. the PF in its cosmic firebird is virtually feat-less since the PF in this form cannot wield its power.. that is the reason it sought out Jean Grey as its host for it to act.. it is a fact the in its firebird form, the PF is composed of pure cosmic energy and thus it would need an energy source if the occasion calls for it, but once it has merged with its host, its an entirely different scenario.. the Spectre has yet to show power on a universal scale.. the WPOTC possessed total telekinetic control of atom at sub-atomic level at a universal scale at the very least.. also, the PF is a confirmed multiversal entity, whereas the Spectre needed the combined powers of DC's magic users to fight the Anti-Monitor..

ouch.....

my mind.... it burns

@lord_oraculous016 said:

@CitizenBane said:

Sure. And the part where Wolverine weakened the Phoenix Force after stabbing it repeatedly after it was nearly killed by an event horizon is PIS too. And the part where Martinex restrained it with tech is PIS too. Or the part where it supposedly has limitless energy but needs Scott's optic beams to survive, that's PIS too. Seriously, Phoenix has done nothing to put it above Spectre.

in a sense yes.. when Logan asked Jean that why is it that despite her power, why would the Phoenix let her die, Jean said it is because the PF is judging her too.. the PF in its cosmic firebird is virtually feat-less since the PF in this form cannot wield its power.. that is the reason it sought out Jean Grey as its host for it to act.. it is a fact the in its firebird form, the PF is composed of pure cosmic energy and thus it would need an energy source if the occasion calls for it, but once it has merged with its host, its an entirely different scenario.. the Spectre has yet to show power on a universal scale.. the WPOTC possessed total telekinetic control of atom at sub-atomic level at a universal scale at the very least.. also, the PF is a confirmed multiversal entity, whereas the Spectre needed the combined powers of DC's magic users to fight the Anti-Monitor..

The Spectre has never shown power on a universal scale......if you've never read anything with the Spectre in it.

And he's purged Anti-Life from creation:

And he's connected to every last thing in creation.

Spectre not being universal is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

You're actually bringing up the Anti-Monitor to prove your point when he actually has destroyed universes, which is more than the Phoenix Force could claim? Please.

@lord_oraculous016: And I wasn't even talking about the incident where Logan killed Jean in New X-Men, I was talking about when he stabbed her repeatedly in Endsong and weakened the PF enough for Jean to take control.

@CitizenBane said:

The Spectre has never shown power on a universal scale......if you've never read anything with the Spectre in it.

And he's purged Anti-Life from creation:

And he's connected to every last thing in creation.

Spectre not being universal is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

You're actually bringing up the Anti-Monitor to prove your point when he actually has destroyed universes, which is more than the Phoenix Force could claim? Please.

nice scans.. but that necessarily makes him superior to the PF.. PF avatars have performed feats similar to those..

Spectre not being universal is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

i was actually referring to the Spectre's power that is capable of a universal scale damage or potency.. if you consider keeping two realities a universal scale power level, then be my guess..

You're actually bringing up the Anti-Monitor to prove your point when he actually has destroyed universes, which is more than the Phoenix Force could claim? Please.

no i wasn't.. i was merely implying that the only multiversal feat i remember that of the Spectre was when he fought the Anti-Monitor.. very different thing..

@CitizenBane said:

@lord_oraculous016: And I wasn't even talking about the incident where Logan killed Jean in New X-Men, I was talking about when he stabbed her repeatedly in Endsong and weakened the PF enough for Jean to take control.

which basically proves my point.. the PF is very dependent on its avatar as it cannot utilize its power on its own..

@lord_oraculous016 said:

@CitizenBane said:

The Spectre has never shown power on a universal scale......if you've never read anything with the Spectre in it.

And he's purged Anti-Life from creation:

And he's connected to every last thing in creation.

Spectre not being universal is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

You're actually bringing up the Anti-Monitor to prove your point when he actually has destroyed universes, which is more than the Phoenix Force could claim? Please.

nice scans.. but that necessarily makes him superior to the PF.. PF avatars have performed feats similar to those..

Spectre not being universal is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

i was actually referring to the Spectre's power that is capable of a universal scale damage or potency.. if you consider keeping two realities a universal scale power level, then be my guess..

You're actually bringing up the Anti-Monitor to prove your point when he actually has destroyed universes, which is more than the Phoenix Force could claim? Please.

no i wasn't.. i was merely implying that the only multiversal feat i remember that of the Spectre was when he fought the Anti-Monitor.. very different thing..

At one stretch you're claiming that the firebird form of the Phoenix nearly getting killed shouldn't be used because it's featless and needs a host.....and then posting a scan of the same firebird that was nearly killed by an event horizon as proof.

I consider purging Anti-Life from creation and fighting a being like Parallax who could create alternate timelines and realities on a whim universal scale power. Spectre had no amps when he fought Parallax. And he's been able to contain everything in creation within himself.

Go ahead and provide scans of anyone of any significance or worth that WPOTC has ever beaten. Anyone who's even close to Spectre's level. Spectre stomped a 5D imp that could warp reality on a universal scale:

And after he killed all the Lords of Order it was stated that the only way to stop him was to get the Presence to pull his leash, as it were:

So go ahead and provide some WPOTC fights. Galactus is nothing.

All of the pro-Phoenix arguments are going to change soon anyway, and not for the better. A year long event revolving around the character is bound to introduce new flaws and limitations.

All of the pro-Phoenix arguments are going to change soon anyway, and not for the better. A year long event revolving around the character is bound to introduce new flaws and limitations.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

All of the pro-Phoenix arguments are going to change soon anyway, and not for the better. A year long event revolving around the character is bound to introduce new flaws and limitations.

Like this matter anyway. It will be Phoenix Force from Earth-616, while fully power Phoenix Force is responsible for whole Multiverse and is powerfull enough to re-create whole Multiverse, since each Phoenix can re-create Universe. Something that can do things like that, doesn't need battle feats at all.

I like how you say they can do all this stuff despite never actually having done it. By that logic the full powered Spectre wins by default, at his max power he's part of the Presence and nothing is beating that.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

All of the pro-Phoenix arguments are going to change soon anyway, and not for the better. A year long event revolving around the character is bound to introduce new flaws and limitations.

Like this matter anyway. It will be Phoenix Force from Earth-616, while fully power Phoenix Force is responsible for whole Multiverse and is powerfull enough to re-create whole Multiverse, since each Phoenix can re-create Universe. Something that can do things like that, doesn't need battle feats at all.

I like how you say they can do all this stuff despite never actually having done it. By that logic the full powered Spectre wins by default, at his max power he's part of the Presence and nothing is beating that.

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

All of the pro-Phoenix arguments are going to change soon anyway, and not for the better. A year long event revolving around the character is bound to introduce new flaws and limitations.

Like this matter anyway. It will be Phoenix Force from Earth-616, while fully power Phoenix Force is responsible for whole Multiverse and is powerfull enough to re-create whole Multiverse, since each Phoenix can re-create Universe. Something that can do things like that, doesn't need battle feats at all.

I like how you say they can do all this stuff despite never actually having done it. By that logic the full powered Spectre wins by default, at his max power he's part of the Presence and nothing is beating that.

And fully power Phoenix is TOAA instrument... We're talking about these people, not some higher beings that can do everything. PF is responsible for that, so it can do that without any other higher force like TOAA. And this is off-topic, since it isn't Phoenix Force who is present in that battle and in my first post here I've already said that Team 1 wins. Just Spectre can't solo this and none of Your scans matches WPOTC holding universe in her hand.

No, she's not. TOAA is a separate entity and that has always been the case. Scroll up to the part where Spectre contains multiple universes inside himself and then try to tell me WPOTC holding one universe in her hands is somehow better.

So WCP holding one universe in her hand, is somehow better than the Spectre holding 2 universes apart? Or holding all universes in his being O_o

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

All of the pro-Phoenix arguments are going to change soon anyway, and not for the better. A year long event revolving around the character is bound to introduce new flaws and limitations.

Like this matter anyway. It will be Phoenix Force from Earth-616, while fully power Phoenix Force is responsible for whole Multiverse and is powerfull enough to re-create whole Multiverse, since each Phoenix can re-create Universe. Something that can do things like that, doesn't need battle feats at all.

I like how you say they can do all this stuff despite never actually having done it. By that logic the full powered Spectre wins by default, at his max power he's part of the Presence and nothing is beating that.

And fully power Phoenix is TOAA instrument... We're talking about these people, not some higher beings that can do everything. PF is responsible for that, so it can do that without any other higher force like TOAA. And this is off-topic, since it isn't Phoenix Force who is present in that battle and in my first post here I've already said that Team 1 wins. Just Spectre can't solo this and none of Your scans matches WPOTC holding universe in her hand.

No, she's not. TOAA is a separate entity and that has always been the case. Scroll up to the part where Spectre contains multiple universes inside himself and then try to tell me WPOTC holding one universe in her hands is somehow better.

He isn't holding them in his hands or something similar. He was doing everything he could to not let them destroy each other. Huge difference

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

@czarny_samael666 said:

@CitizenBane said:

All of the pro-Phoenix arguments are going to change soon anyway, and not for the better. A year long event revolving around the character is bound to introduce new flaws and limitations.

Like this matter anyway. It will be Phoenix Force from Earth-616, while fully power Phoenix Force is responsible for whole Multiverse and is powerfull enough to re-create whole Multiverse, since each Phoenix can re-create Universe. Something that can do things like that, doesn't need battle feats at all.

I like how you say they can do all this stuff despite never actually having done it. By that logic the full powered Spectre wins by default, at his max power he's part of the Presence and nothing is beating that.

And fully power Phoenix is TOAA instrument... We're talking about these people, not some higher beings that can do everything. PF is responsible for that, so it can do that without any other higher force like TOAA. And this is off-topic, since it isn't Phoenix Force who is present in that battle and in my first post here I've already said that Team 1 wins. Just Spectre can't solo this and none of Your scans matches WPOTC holding universe in her hand.

No, she's not. TOAA is a separate entity and that has always been the case. Scroll up to the part where Spectre contains multiple universes inside himself and then try to tell me WPOTC holding one universe in her hands is somehow better.

He isn't holding them in his hands or something similar. He was doing everything he could to not let them destroy each other. Huge difference

You're just getting desperate at this point. The only huge difference is that it's much better than Phoenix holding a universe. And as for him "doing everything he could to not let them destroy each other"...

Wrong again. Try again. Or is this going to be like how you keep claiming Professor X is equal to Martian Manhunter in telepathy despite all the evidence to the contrary?

This is a Fact the Spectre wins here adding ION is cheating . I am not even sure what Odin doing here.

@CitizenBane said:

@lord_oraculous016 said:

@CitizenBane said:

The Spectre has never shown power on a universal scale......if you've never read anything with the Spectre in it.

And he's purged Anti-Life from creation:

And he's connected to every last thing in creation.

Spectre not being universal is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

You're actually bringing up the Anti-Monitor to prove your point when he actually has destroyed universes, which is more than the Phoenix Force could claim? Please.

nice scans.. but that necessarily makes him superior to the PF.. PF avatars have performed feats similar to those..

Spectre not being universal is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

i was actually referring to the Spectre's power that is capable of a universal scale damage or potency.. if you consider keeping two realities a universal scale power level, then be my guess..

You're actually bringing up the Anti-Monitor to prove your point when he actually has destroyed universes, which is more than the Phoenix Force could claim? Please.

no i wasn't.. i was merely implying that the only multiversal feat i remember that of the Spectre was when he fought the Anti-Monitor.. very different thing..

At one stretch you're claiming that the firebird form of the Phoenix nearly getting killed shouldn't be used because it's featless and needs a host.....and then posting a scan of the same firebird that was nearly killed by an event horizon as proof.

I consider purging Anti-Life from creation and fighting a being like Parallax who could create alternate timelines and realities on a whim universal scale power. Spectre had no amps when he fought Parallax. And he's been able to contain everything in creation within himself.

Go ahead and provide scans of anyone of any significance or worth that WPOTC has ever beaten. Anyone who's even close to Spectre's level. Spectre stomped a 5D imp that could warp reality on a universal scale:

And after he killed all the Lords of Order it was stated that the only way to stop him was to get the Presence to pull his leash, as it were:

So go ahead and provide some WPOTC fights. Galactus is nothing.

All of the pro-Phoenix arguments are going to change soon anyway, and not for the better. A year long event revolving around the character is bound to introduce new flaws and limitations.

correct me if i am wrong, but isn't the first scan shows the Spectre being one with the Logoz? so therefore he was amped..

trying to justify the Spectre's power with his fight against a universal warping 5D imp won't do so much.. the PF undid a reality warping spell of a omniversal scale.. the WPOTC has never fought anyone so her battle feats are more or less open-ended questions.. most of the PF's power can be taken from its host and from the PF's importance in the scheme of things.. PF avatars have fought a number of enemies ranging from Galactus to the Beyonder.. Phoenix's fight against the Beyonder may be the best to described her status and power..

its is true that the Beyonder gave Rachel the power to destroy him which allowed her to reach her fullest potential.. in the end, the Beyonder got his powers back along side the totality of all life which the Phoenix is.. the experience was too much even for the Beyonder himself.. also, coming from the Beyonder himself, EVERYONE else is no less than an amoeba to him, save one.. and that is Phoenix..

perhaps.. and perhaps not.. seeing have Cyclops believes that the power of the Phoenix is the key in permanently undoing the omniversal scale spell created by the Scarlet Witch sounds like its finally the time to reveal the PF's true power.. and seeing how Dr. Doom himself once stated that Wanda's powers is the greatest he ever had (more powerful than that of the Beyonder).. i can't wait for this year long event..

Wrong again. Try again. Or is this going to be like how you keep claiming Professor X is equal to Martian Manhunter in telepathy despite all the evidence to the contrary?

@CitizenBane said:

I consider purging Anti-Life from creation and fighting a being like Parallax who could create alternate timelines and realities on a whim universal scale power. Spectre had no amps when he fought Parallax. And he's been able to contain everything in creation within himself.

Well, Spectre lost to Parallax though. Obviously he did better than the JLA, but that doesn't mean he's up at the same level. And hadn't Parallax just finished his whole rewrite thing? He probably wasn't at maximum power if he had.

The first panel says "you will be shown the nature of God," which makes me think that everything on the following 4 panels is him being shown what it's like to be God, not that that's how he is normally. Phoenix once did something like that to Mastermind.

He also uses the term "universes," but then says "a whole dimension." That just sounds a little odd; usually a universe is a whole dimension. I'm not sure how he could contain multiple universes but only one dimension, unless DC defines them in a slightly atypical way.

Go ahead and provide scans of anyone of any significance or worth that WPOTC has ever beaten. Anyone who's even close to Spectre's level. Spectre stomped a 5D imp that could warp reality on a universal scale:

And after he killed all the Lords of Order it was stated that the only way to stop him was to get the Presence to pull his leash, as it were:

Aren't the lords of order basically the next rung down from him though? It kind of makes sense that if you kill everyone next in line, the only one left to deal with you is the boss. And didn't Shazam give him quite a fight? Seemed like Spectre would have died if he had been mortal, or unable to replenish himself by absorbing magic energy.

For that matter, the amped Captain Marvel gave him a good fight, and he was only amped by the magic of Earth, wasn't he? Plus, Shadowpact almost killed him with Black Alice. Of course, she's a special case, but the point is he still nearly lost a couple of times before the Presence stepped in. Had the forces of Order and Chaos been able to form any kind of plan in anticipation of him, he might have been straight up beaten (I mean, with a bit of prep he could have conceivably been up against an amped CA plus Shazam, Nabu, and Phantom Stranger at the same time).

Personally, I also found it a little contrived that the Presence somehow failed to notice his most powerful agent had become a deranged psycho until after he wiped out all magic in the universe (for that matter, Spectre being so easily manipulated by Eclipso in the first place seemed a bit contrived; fun story though, and I don't fault it otherwise).

BTW, I'm not saying Phoenix wins. I haven't read any of the stuff with the WPoTC; I've only read Dark Phoenix Saga (which was awesome) and Phoenix Endsong (which had me rolling my eyes pretty much the whole time).

Team 1.

Atleast give Odin the Destroyer armor.

team 1

@Illuminatus said:

Atleast give Odin the Destroyer armor.

How powerful is destroyer?

@Illuminatus said:

Atleast give Odin the Destroyer armor.

How powerful is destroyer?

@lord_oraculous016:

correct me if i am wrong, but isn't the first scan shows the Spectre being one with the Logoz? so therefore he was amped..

Incorrect. The Logoz first appeared in Spectre v4, that scan is from Spectre v3. Do the math. And even if it was the Logoz, how would that be an amp? The Logoz is the source of the Spectre's power, it's his channel to the Presence. It would just be the natural order of things.

trying to justify the Spectre's power with his fight against a universal warping 5D imp won't do so much.. the PF undid a reality warping spell of a omniversal scale..

Uh, no. First and foremost that spell was undone after years, so it's not like you can tell how long it took for it to be removed, and to the best of my knowledge its removal (if you can call 6 mutants popping up to take the place of millions that) is restricted to 616. If you have some proof that it was the entire omniverse and not just a single universe, feel free to present it. Not to mention that the circumstances of that removal are as yet unknown. Most recently in the AOA reality Jean had the power of the Phoenix and was still depowered by a clone of Wanda. So it's obviously not every universe.

the WPOTC has never fought anyone so her battle feats are more or less open-ended questions..

Is this supposed to mean something other than "WPOTC has never fought anyone of any note or worth whatsoever"? Yeah, that's what I thought.

most of the PF's power can be taken from its host and from the PF's importance in the scheme of things..

I don't understand how this can be perceived as anything other than backtracking. If you want to derive battle feats of WPOTC based on its hosts, since WPOTC doesn't have any, then you must also deal with the long list of incidents experienced by the hosts (Xorn, Martinex, the Shiar, etc) that make the Phoenix a cosmic jobber. You can't have it both ways.

Phoenix's fight against the Beyonder may be the best to described her status and power..

For the love of god......this is just wrong. Beyonder told Phoenix to her face that the only way she could even harm him was if he stood still and dropped all his defenses and did nothing to cope with or counter her attack. From where can the conclusion be derived that Phoenix is even remotely close to him based on that? Nowhere. That was not Phoenix's full potential, she was using the Beyonder's power against him because he gave it to her. I asked for Phoenix feats and you're giving me quasi-Beyonder feats. Not the same thing. Either give me battle feats of the Phoenix under her own power and no one else's, or give me nothing.

in the end, the Beyonder got his powers back along side the totality of all life which the Phoenix is.. the experience was too much even for the Beyonder himself..

I like how you think this actually means something when at best you could say the Phoenix gave Beyonder an epiphany. No more, no less, and certainly nothing useful. Stop overrating that feat.

also, coming from the Beyonder himself, EVERYONE else is no less than an amoeba to him, save one.. and that is Phoenix.

Again, you're overrating it beyond comprehension. Beyonder said the rest of the X-Men were amoeba to him. All you've done is shown that Beyonder thinks Phoenix is the only member of the X-Men worth a damn. Sure she is. Phoenix while under her own power hit the Beyonder with everything she had and it did nothing. He even said she was about as fascinating as a flower in the mud. Why ignore that? Phoenix was only more interesting than an amoeba when she used Beyonder's own power against him, apparently.

seeing have Cyclops believes that the power of the Phoenix is the key

Yeah, because Cyclops is so knowledgeable on the workings of reality that his word must be law, right? Christ...

Dr. Doom himself once stated that Wanda's powers is the greatest he ever had (more powerful than that of the Beyonder)..

The same Doom who went on to get hurt by Scott Lang. Beyonder tanked attacks that could destroy billions of dimensions without even flinching. Doom w/Wanda's powers gets hurt by Scott Lang hitting him on the head. Do the math.

i can't wait for this year long event

If you think the Phoenix will actually come out stronger after that much exposure and interaction with so many characters.......more power to you.

Even if the only thing you want to go on is the words of the Beyonder (misconstrued, but still) Spectre would still come out on top. Michael described Spectre's power as formidable, and seeing as Michael is literally the embodiment of the Presence's power (the Presence himself has called Michael an "ocean of power with no shore"), you can imagine what Spectre's power level is like if someone like Michael considers it formidable. And when Spectre fought Michael, he used his own power. Not what he was piggybacking on from his opponent.

@czarny_samael666: You created a nonsensical scenario in a desperate attempt to support a nonsensical position. Tell you what, if you feel up to it, go bump one of the existing X vs Manhunter threads and air whatever views you have there. Tag me to it and I'll happily address anything you have to say. So are you up to defending it or not?

And Your scan doesn't prove anything. Spectre didn't destroy any universe as much as he didn't defeat other universe buster there. He didn't do anything that WPOTC couldn't.

I've noticed that in every thread you go to, when you have nothing left to say, you go "your scan doesn't prove anything" despite the fact that it does. Show me scans of WPOTC destroying a universe. I've already shown you a scan of Spectre defeating a 5D imp and a scan of Spectre directing the atoms of the universes inside him to manifest sentient life. He's also pumped energy through Waverider to make him burst and create a new universe from nothing. Show me one person of any note or worth that WPOTC has ever fought. Just one. I'll save you some time: you can't. I don't understand why you think WPOTC holding a universe whilst inside the White Hot Room is that big a deal, Eternity has held several universes in the palm of his hand and he didn't need to be in his place of power to do so.

In contrast, the Spectre didn't show any sign of weakness or damage when he reappeared after Parallax was defeated. Hal hadn't created his universe yet, when he accidentally killed the alternate Batgirl he said "She will live again in my universe, everything will be right". At best you could say Parallax went toe to toe with the Spectre and was powerful enough to hurt him, which is impressive in itself since this was Jim Corrigan's Spectre.

The first panel says "you will be shown the nature of God," which makes me think that everything on the following 4 panels is him being shown what it's like to be God, not that that's how he is normally. Phoenix once did something like that to Mastermind.

Firstly, what Phoenix did was expose Mastermind's mind to the workings of the universe, which his mind couldn't take (hence the statement on that page that said "Some people can handle the experience. Some people can't"). It's not really comparable to Spectre holding all those universes inside him. Yes, he's not like that normally but the point of that scan was to show that he can and in fact has, housed universes inside him and manipulated them from within. It's just like how WPOTC has only ever held a universe while inside the White Hot Room, all her feats outside of it aren't universal.

He also uses the term "universes," but then says "a whole dimension." That just sounds a little odd; usually a universe is a whole dimension. I'm not sure how he could contain multiple universes but only one dimension, unless DC defines them in a slightly atypical way.

Sounds odd but I see no reason to discount the feat based on one possible error in syntax, the fact that he was temporarily shown what being the Presence is like indicates otherwise. Spectre's fight with the amped Captain Marvel during DOV (more on that later) was causing damage across several dimensions at once:

The only reason Marvel even lasted long enough to receive the amp was because Spectre didn't want to fight him (because of what a colossal mismatch it was). The text described it as a paraplegic child going up against a champion prize fighter. Later, when the Spectre actually wanted to beat Marvel he did so with the greatest of ease:

Aren't the lords of order basically the next rung down from him though?

They're several rungs down from him, actually.

Before I go any further, I need to say this: your examples are irrelevant. Not criticizing you, it's just that all your examples come from DOV, when the Spectre was unbound and thus at his weakest level. OP says he's at his highest level here. So with that in mind:

And didn't Shazam give him quite a fight? Seemed like Spectre would have died if he had been mortal, or unable to replenish himself by absorbing magic energy.

Again, not sure where you got Spectre could have/would have lost from. He fought Shazam in the latter's place of power, Shazam attacks him and thinks he's drained of power, Spectre mocks him and reforms, tells Shazam it's impossible to destroy him, and then tears him apart. Spectre would have died if he had been mortal, but that's a moot point; since when has the Spectre ever been mortal? He doesn't need to absorb magical energy to replenish himself, he just possesses the ability to do so.

For that matter, the amped Captain Marvel gave him a good fight, and he was only amped by the magic of Earth, wasn't he? Plus, Shadowpact almost killed him with Black Alice. Of course, she's a special case, but the point is he still nearly lost a couple of times before the Presence stepped in. Had the forces of Order and Chaos been able to form any kind of plan in anticipation of him, he might have been straight up beaten (I mean, with a bit of prep he could have conceivably been up against an amped CA plus Shazam, Nabu, and Phantom Stranger at the same time).

The unbound part should address all of this. He easily defeated Phantom Stranger, actually. The difference between him unbound and bound can be noted in how each form fought Nabu; the unbound Spectre struggled before finally killing Nabu. Prior to that the Spectre has defeated him with ease.

Personally, I also found it a little contrived that the Presence somehow failed to notice his most powerful agent had become a deranged psycho until after he wiped out all magic in the universe

Plot, possibly. It's also possible that the Presence simply didn't care, he hasn't had the most positive portrayals. In the Lucifer series he walked out on the multiverse knowing fully well that it would destabilize and kill all life contained in it if he abandoned it.

(for that matter, Spectre being so easily manipulated by Eclipso in the first place seemed a bit contrived; fun story though, and I don't fault it otherwise).

That's the biggest reason as to why he needs to be bound to a human host; without one his judgement is severely compromised.

@CitizenBane said:

I'm not sure where you got Spectre losing to Parallax from. All that happened was Parallax hitting Spectre with an energy blast that made him go "Aargh!". What happened after that to make you think Spectre lost? Plenty of characters express pain when hit by an attack, it's not an indication of defeat.

Actually I think the fact that the spectre did not come immediately back into the battle would lead most to believe that he did lose the battle. That's the way most people on here perceive it anyway.

@eisjfiejss said:

@CitizenBane said:

I'm not sure where you got Spectre losing to Parallax from. All that happened was Parallax hitting Spectre with an energy blast that made him go "Aargh!". What happened after that to make you think Spectre lost? Plenty of characters express pain when hit by an attack, it's not an indication of defeat.

Actually I think the fact that the spectre did not come immediately back into the battle would lead most to believe that he did lose the battle. That's the way most people on here perceive it anyway.

He disappeared for three pages in a sea of characters. That's a loss? The fact that Parallax was KO'd because he spent all his power against the Spectre (who was perfectly fine at the end of the fight) would lead me to believe Spectre came out of that fight with a better outcome.

@CitizenBane: ...

Incorrect. The Logoz first appeared in Spectre v4, that scan is from Spectre v3. Do the math. And even if it was the Logoz, how would that be an amp? The Logoz is the source of the Spectre's power, it's his channel to the Presence. It would just be the natural order of things

from what i remember it was the same story where the Spectre even spoke with Lucifer.. if that is the Logoz, then its the power of the Presence.. the power of the Spectre increase and decreases depends on the Presence's will.. saying that the Logoz is part of the Spectre's own innate power without amp is somewhat far-fetched..

Uh, no. First and foremost that spell was undone after years, so it's not like you can tell how long it took for it to be removed, and to the best of my knowledge its removal (if you can call 6 mutants popping up to take the place of millions that) is restricted to 616. If you have some proof that it was the entire omniverse and not just a single universe, feel free to present it. Not to mention that the circumstances of that removal are as yet unknown. Most recently in the AOA reality Jean had the power of the Phoenix and was still depowered by a clone of Wanda. So it's obviously not every universe.

Uh, no. First and foremost that spell was undone after years, so it's not like you can tell how long it took for it to be removed, and to the best of my knowledge its removal (if you can call 6 mutants popping up to take the place of millions that) is restricted to 616. If you have some proof that it was the entire omniverse and not just a single universe, feel free to present it. Not to mention that the circumstances of that removal are as yet unknown. Most recently in the AOA reality Jean had the power of the Phoenix and was still depowered by a clone of Wanda. So it's obviously not every universe.

the scan you presented is from AoA, a reality which did exist when Wanda decreed the spell of NO MORE MUTANTS.. seeing a clone version of the Scarlet Witch uttering the same spell only proves that this reality was not affected of the spell simply because it was created much later in the timeline.. from what i know, the spell was undone after 6 months or a year, but it was not certainly years.. Wanda, specifically said NO MORE MUTANTS, a spell that cascaded across the omniverse and alternate realities as shown..

Beast and Dr. Strange visited alternate realities in order to find a way to undo the effects of Wanda's spell.. but then, they utterly failed.. this is further support during the current Avengers: Children's Crusade when Beast told Wanda that in a monet on mental instability, she uttered three words that nearly robbed every mutant in the world, perhaps even the omniverse of their power.. if you want i scan, i can put it up later..

Is this supposed to mean something other than "WPOTC has never fought anyone of any note or worth whatsoever"? Yeah, that's what I thought.

if you are trying to categorize her power by basing it only by battle feat and not all feats displayed, then yes.. but then again, the power level of an individual is not always based on battle feats..

I don't understand how this can be perceived as anything other than backtracking. If you want to derive battle feats of WPOTC based on its hosts, since WPOTC doesn't have any, then you must also deal with the long list of incidents experienced by the hosts (Xorn, Martinex, the Shiar, etc) that make the Phoenix a cosmic jobber. You can't have it both ways.

true.. but point is, most of the Phoenix being a jobber or it displaying weak feats are involved in PIS stories.. most of the PFs weak moments are from avatars that are either weak, out of character or inexperienced.. you cannot jutify the power of the WPOTC by looking at these flaws coz none of these instances involve the WPOTC itself..

For the love of god......this is just wrong. Beyonder told Phoenix to her face that the only way she could even harm him was if he stood still and dropped all his defenses and did nothing to cope with or counter her attack. From where can the conclusion be derived that Phoenix is even remotely close to him based on that? Nowhere. That was not Phoenix's full potential, she was using the Beyonder's power against him because he gave it to her. I asked for Phoenix feats and you're giving me quasi-Beyonder feats. Not the same thing. Either give me battle feats of the Phoenix under her own power and no one else's, or give me nothing.

what made the Beyonder dropped to his knees is not his power.. the Beyonder gave Rachel the power to destroy him that Rachel used that power to save her friends instead.. now, she sets off unleashing the power of the M'kraan Crystal and in doing so, touching every mind of every sentient being in existence.. this is what made the Beyonder drop to his knees.. the experience of the totality of life.. and not his own power..

I like how you think this actually means something when at best you could say the Phoenix gave Beyonder an epiphany. No more, no less, and certainly nothing useful. Stop overrating that feat.

i am not saying that she stalemated him head on.. and for the record, enabling an omnipotent being understand the true meaning of something is feat to consider.. it may not be an impressive battle feat, but it certainly say something about the character..

Again, you're overrating it beyond comprehension. Beyonder said the rest of the X-Men were amoeba to him. All you've done is shown that Beyonder thinks Phoenix is the only member of the X-Men worth a damn. Sure she is. Phoenix while under her own power hit the Beyonder with everything she had and it did nothing. He even said she was about as fascinating as a flower in the mud. Why ignore that? Phoenix was only more interesting than an amoeba when she used Beyonder's own power against him, apparently.

again, i never denied that fact.. like what i have said before, using your own words, she gave an epiphany of what life truly is.. i never did ignore anything for i only mentioned something not even related to a battle feat..

Yeah, because Cyclops is so knowledgeable on the workings of reality that his word must be law, right? Christ...

sarcasm doesn't really disprove anything.. if he's right or wrong is still yet to be know..

The same Doom who went on to get hurt by Scott Lang. Beyonder tanked attacks that could destroy billions of dimensions without even flinching. Doom w/Wanda's powers gets hurt by Scott Lang hitting him on the head. Do the math.

true.. but like i said before, such power doesn't work at the same level for its bearers.. Doom was referring to the power he got.. whether he can fully utilize it is the question.. Wanda using the same power Doom has never ever dreamed of achieving..

If you think the Phoenix will actually come out stronger after that much exposure and interaction with so many characters.......more power to you.

well thank you.. i hope you also discover answers to your own questions..

Even if the only thing you want to go on is the words of the Beyonder (misconstrued, but still) Spectre would still come out on top. Michael described Spectre's power as formidable, and seeing as Michael is literally the embodiment of the Presence's power (the Presence himself has called Michael an "ocean of power with no shore"), you can imagine what Spectre's power level is like if someone like Michael considers it formidable. And when Spectre fought Michael, he used his own power. Not what he was piggybacking on from his opponent.

true.. but like what i have before, Marvel doesn't follow the Judeo-Christian belief.. so you won't see the Phoenix fighting any archangels in its biblical sense any day.. as for the Phoenix, its lack of competent battle history does not diminish the power and status it holds as one of the most powerful entities in the Marvel universe.. the Living Tribunal itself acknowledge that the power of the Phoenix can be a threat to the multiverse..

@lord_oraculous016:

from what i remember it was the same story where the Spectre even spoke with Lucifer.. if that is the Logoz, then its the power of the Presence.. the power of the Spectre increase and decreases depends on the Presence's will.. saying that the Logoz is part of the Spectre's own innate power without amp is somewhat far-fetched..

Yes, it was. I've already pointed out that it wasn't and couldn't have been the Logoz. And again --I don't know how many times I have to say this-- the Logoz IS part of the Spectre's innate power. It is the power of the Presence and it is what Spectre derives all his power from. It's not an amp, it's the natural order of things. It is no more far-fetched than claiming Superman deriving power from sunlight is far-fetched.

the scan you presented is from AoA, a reality which did exist when Wanda decreed the spell of NO MORE MUTANTS.. seeing a clone version of the Scarlet Witch uttering the same spell only proves that this reality was not affected of the spell simply because it was created much later in the timeline..

You fail to see the point. If the Phoenix was powerful enough to permanently remove the spell from all realities, then a clone of Wanda replicating the spell directly contradicts that. That is all.

Wanda, specifically said NO MORE MUTANTS, a spell that cascaded across the omniverse and alternate realities as shown..

This and all the scans you posted serve no purpose whatsoever. I did NOT ask for proof that Wanda affected the omniverse. I asked for proof that the PF lifting the spell involved realities other than 616 i.e that the spell was lifted in more than one universe. You have not understood what I said, and you have provided scans that were not needed.

if you are trying to categorize her power by basing it only by battle feat and not all feats displayed, then yes.. but then again, the power level of an individual is not always based on battle feats..

Tough, the Phoenix only has statements and hyperbole to go off. WPOTC has only ever done anything universe-level while inside the WHR, Spectre has pumped enough energy into Waverider to recreate the DCU. There are no concrete feats to justify WPOTC beating Spectre. None.

true.. but point is, most of the Phoenix being a jobber or it displaying weak feats are involved in PIS stories.. most of the PFs weak moments are from avatars that are either weak, out of character or inexperienced.. you cannot jutify the power of the WPOTC by looking at these flaws coz none of these instances involve the WPOTC itself..

LOL, there are no instances of WPOTC doing anything against anyone. Apart from speculation, you have nothing concrete to go on at all.

i am not saying that she stalemated him head on.. and for the record, enabling an omnipotent being understand the true meaning of something is feat to consider.. it may not be an impressive battle feat, but it certainly say something about the character..

It's not a battle feat at all. As an example, Adam Warlock gave Thanos w/the HOTU an epiphany at the end of Marvel: The End, that does not mean Warlock was even remotely close to a fraction of Thanos' power.

sarcasm doesn't really disprove anything.. if he's right or wrong is still yet to be know..

So by your own admission, you have no idea whether he was right or wrong but you decided to bring it up as if it was a testament to the Phoenix's power?

.

@CitizenBane: ...

Yes, it was. I've already pointed out that it wasn't and couldn't have been the Logoz. And again --I don't know how many times I have to say this-- the Logoz IS part of the Spectre's innate power. It is the power of the Presence andit is what Spectre derives all his power from. It's not an amp, it's the natural order of things. It is no more far-fetched than claiming Superman deriving power from sunlight is far-fetched.

can you please prove that the Logoz is actually part of the Spectre innate powers and abilities.. why hasn't he used it back then during COIE where he needed the combined might of DC's top sorcerers? aside from being one with everything in existence, what does the Logoz do?

You fail to see the point. If the Phoenix was powerful enough to permanently remove the spell from all realities, then a clone of Wanda replicating the spell directly contradicts that. That is all.

AoA clone od Wanda hasn't done anything close of 616 Wanda with the same spell.. plus if i remember correctly, Jean of AoX is not utilizing the "true" Phoenix Force.. in this reality, Jean is not the WPOTC nor has she combined with the PF.. she lost her powers, but to what extent.. in the prime continuity, Iceman thought that he lost his powers.. again, these are not the real Wanda and Jean of 616 so basing their feat from these conunterparts is uncalled for..

This and all the scans you posted serve no purpose whatsoever. I did NOT ask for proof that Wanda affected the omniverse. I asked for proof that the PF lifting the spell involved realities other than 616 i.e that the spell was lifted in more than one universe. You have not understood what I said, and you have provided scans that were not needed.

the spell originated from 616.. the PF undid the spell in 616.. Wanda's spell affecting the omniverse was not explained until later on.. so if what prove that the PF also undid the spell in alternate realities, then sad to say, it hasn't been shown on panel yet.. BUT does that prove that the PF can't do that.. no.. i think that is what AvX is all about.. they are finally undoing the curse of the Scarlet Witch and explaining it in the most thorough way..

Tough, the Phoenix only has statements and hyperbole to go off. WPOTC has only ever done anything universe-level while inside the WHR, Spectre has pumped enough energy into Waverider to recreate the DCU. There are no concrete feats to justify WPOTC beating Spectre. None.

nice scans.. yes, battle feat-wise none.. but then, what are your basis that the Spectre can defeat her? what among his battle feats suggest that he can defeat the prime universal force of life.. you once claim that the Logoz is part of the Spectre's power which makes him one with everything in existence.. but the same can be said to the Phoenix.. also, the Phoenix while hosting Feron managed to project towers across every existing realities and thus making an Energy Matrix.. Necrom once tried to use this energy matrix to compress all alternate Earths into singularity if Rachel will not surrender the PF power to him.. we all know how powerful Merlyn became with the power of the Energy Matrix, but somewhat, his master and teacher Necrom sees the PF as the greater power source.. seeing how PF avatars can perform these feats, it is safe to say that the most powerful PF avatar to date can also perform the same feat..

LOL, there are no instances of WPOTC doing anything against anyone. Apart from speculation, you have nothing concrete to go on at all.

true.. but the absence of proof is not the proof of absence.. aside from her universal level feat, most of what she can do is still unknown..

It's not a battle feat at all. As an example, Adam Warlock gave Thanos w/the HOTU an epiphany at the end of Marvel: The End, that does not mean Warlock was even remotely close to a fraction of Thanos' power.

i never said that it is a battle feat.. and what Warlock did is far different than what Rachel did.. Warlock talked to Thanos, Rachel forcefully used her own powers of the the Phoenix which is connected to all life to the Beyonder.. the outcome may be the same, but the methods of doing it are very much different..

So by your own admission, you have no idea whether he was right or wrong but you decided to bring it up as if it was a testament to the Phoenix's power?

i just don't go by Cyclops words.. every single thing that has happened so far with the whole mutant rebirth drama with Hope's birth has always been connected to the PF.. its not just Cyclops talking, but the whole situations also points the same way.. why is the PF talking to Hope, why is it coming back? why does Hope's birth broke the Scarlet Witch's proclamation of no more mutants.. there may be loop holes in Cyclops words and i can't prove what he's saying are all true.. but taking into consideration of what has happened so far, its not Cyclops words that i stand by with the PF's power, rather by the whole thing that has happened so far..

And once again, you're completely missing the point. I did not in any way mean Phoenix had to fight an archangel. You claimed that Beyonder saying Phoenix was > the rest of the X-Men (that's all he said, after all) was somehow proof of her power, when all it really does is prove that Beyonder thinks Phoenix > the rest of the X-Men. Big deal. That in no way compares to the embodiment of the Presence's power calling the Spectre's might formidable.

the Beyonder's words may be to vague and un-called for, but after seeing how the Beyonder looked at everyone as mere insects even those of the highest members of the cosmic hierarchy, its is truly something to note for.. he even said that she deny her true power.. that she stay as she is when she can be so much more.. but still, even if we don't count the Beyonder, there are other powerful beings who respect the Phoenix's power ranging from the Living Tribunal, Death, Galactus, Cosmic Cube beings, etc.. and for Marvel, those are the top people in their food chain..

@CitizenBane: Very awesome post on the Spectre there.

@lord_oraculous016:

can you please prove that the Logoz is actually part of the Spectre innate powers and abilities.. why hasn't he used it back then during COIE where he needed the combined might of DC's top sorcerers? aside from being one with everything in existence, what does the Logoz do?

Well there's this: http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/2056/thespectrev40415xn7.jpg, where it's said that underneath the Spectre's wrath lies the Logoz;

And then this: http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/283/thespectrev40515pf3.jpg, where it's said that the Spectre is essentially a dead man fused with the Logoz;

And then this: http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/9478/thespectrev41121lu6.jpg, where it's said that the Logoz is a spark of God responsible for the manifestation of the Spectre.

Good enough?

Your question doesn't make any sense, Spectre didn't use the Logoz during COIE because the concept of the Logoz was only introduced almost 2 decades later in Spectre v4. How could he use something the writers hadn't created yet?

What does the Logoz do? When the Presence left creation, Michael used the Logoz as a focal point to recreate the multiverse over and over again countless times, something he can not ordinarily do on his own. Judge it's potential power from that.

AoA clone od Wanda hasn't done anything close of 616 Wanda with the same spell.. plus if i remember correctly, Jean of AoX is not utilizing the "true" Phoenix Force.. in this reality, Jean is not the WPOTC nor has she combined with the PF.. she lost her powers, but to what extent.. in the prime continuity, Iceman thought that he lost his powers.. again, these are not the real Wanda and Jean of 616 so basing their feat from these conunterparts is uncalled for..

That is still not the point. You claimed that the spell affected all continuities, and yet a reiteration of the spell clearly still exists in at least one continuity, which contradicts your claim. Your point comparing Iceman's former situation to AOA Jean's current situation is just speculation, you and I both know you have zero proof for that statement.

the spell originated from 616.. the PF undid the spell in 616.. Wanda's spell affecting the omniverse was not explained until later on.. so if what prove that the PF also undid the spell in alternate realities, then sad to say, it hasn't been shown on panel yet.. BUT does that prove that the PF can't do that.. no.. i think that is what AvX is all about.. they are finally undoing the curse of the Scarlet Witch and explaining it in the most thorough way..

Your logic is faulty. You're essentially claiming that just because there's no proof that the spell was lifted in more than one reality, that does not mean it was not lifted in all realities. Once again, speculation with nothing to back it up with. You have no proof that the spell was lifted in more than one universe. You know it, I know it. That is all. Cyclops and co. are concerned first and foremost about the spell being lifted in 616, that is obviously their main priority.

And hey, if we're bringing in the observations of people who have no clue about the cosmic order, then you might as well bring in this: http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/spectre_power.jpg, where Ralph Dibny calls Spectre the most powerful being in creation.

nice scans.. yes, battle feat-wise none..

Highlighted part speaks volumes, really.

but then, what are your basis that the Spectre can defeat her? what among his battle feats suggest that he can defeat the prime universal force of life.. you once claim that the Logoz is part of the Spectre's power which makes him one with everything in existence.. but the same can be said to the Phoenix..

Your part about the Phoenix being the prime universal force of life is the sort of thing that plagues every pro-Phoenix argument, because it's the only thing that can be said in favor of the WPOTC. Apart from comments about her status, speculation, theories and hyperbole she has no actual feats that make her better than the Spectre, he's matched and exceeded everything she's actually done on paper. He has a ton of feats, she has barely anything.

There is no argument for the Phoenix winning that can exist without a large amount of hypothesizing and speculation being tossed in. There is an argument for the Spectre winning that exists based on concrete proof, facts and things he has actually DONE on paper. I fail to see why speculation and probabilities should take precedence over solid facts. Which echoes in those scans you posted. Once again, you're saying "Phoenix should be able to do this", "Phoenix could probably do this", and so on. Not "Phoenix has done this".

true.. but the absence of proof is not the proof of absence.. aside from her universal level feat, most of what she can do is still unknown..

No, but the absence of proof just serves to underline what I've already said: There is no argument for the Phoenix winning that can exist without a large amount of hypothesizing and speculation being tossed in.

i never said that it is a battle feat.. and what Warlock did is far different than what Rachel did.. Warlock talked to Thanos, Rachel forcefully used her own powers of the the Phoenix which is connected to all life to the Beyonder.. the outcome may be the same, but the methods of doing it are very much different..

The outcomes are the same, with both doing nothing for either Warlock or Phoenix. The fact remains that Phoenix fought Beyonder twice. While using her own power, she could not even faze him, and she only affected him while she had a portion of his own power within her.

i just don't go by Cyclops words.. every single thing that has happened so far with the whole mutant rebirth drama with Hope's birth has always been connected to the PF.. its not just Cyclops talking, but the whole situations also points the same way.. why is the PF talking to Hope, why is it coming back? why does Hope's birth broke the Scarlet Witch's proclamation of no more mutants.. there may be loop holes in Cyclops words and i can't prove what he's saying are all true.. but taking into consideration of what has happened so far, its not Cyclops words that i stand by with the PF's power, rather by the whole thing that has happened so far..

Again, highlighted part is what I've been saying all along. It's not something you should be posting as proof until there's total, undeniable clarity on the entire situation.

@CitizenBane: ...

sorry for the late response.. i was on vacation for a few days.. ^_^

Well there's this: http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/2056/thespectrev40415xn7.jpg, where it's said that underneath the Spectre's wrath lies the Logoz;
And then this: http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/283/thespectrev40515pf3.jpg, where it's said that the Spectre is essentially a dead man fused with the Logoz;
And then this: http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/9478/thespectrev41121lu6.jpg, where it's said that the Logoz is a spark of God responsible for the manifestation of the Spectre.
Good enough?
Your question doesn't make any sense, Spectre didn't use the Logoz during COIE because the concept of the Logoz was only introduced almost 2 decades later in Spectre v4. How could he use something the writers hadn't created yet?
What does the Logoz do? When the Presence left creation, Michael used the Logoz as a focal point to recreate the multiverse over and over again countless times, something he can not ordinarily do on his own. Judge it's potential power from that.

sadly, for unknown response i can't access the scans.. can you please post the actually scan.. now, from what i know, the Logoz is an aspect which gives the Spectre direct channel to the Presence.. has the Logoz ever been used in battle?

That is still not the point. You claimed that the spell affected all continuities, and yet a reiteration of the spell clearly still exists in at least one continuity, which contradicts your claim. Your point comparing Iceman's former situation to AOA Jean's current situation is just speculation, you and I both know you have zero proof for that statement.

yet, that does not prove the the spell wasn't broken in alternate realities.. trying to emphasize that the spell was clearly been broken in one reality does not prove its not the same thing to alternate ones.. also, as i remember, Gabriel Cohuelo, one of the Five Lights was there during AoX, so it is safe to say that Wanda's spell has been broken.. Wanda's clone recreating the feat and affecting an alternate version of Jean Grey proves nothing since that is not even the real Jean Grey or did she ever possessed the "true" Phoenix Force..

Your logic is faulty. You're essentially claiming that just because there's no proof that the spell was lifted in more than one reality, that does not mean it was not lifted in all realities. Once again, speculation with nothing to back it up with. You have no proof that the spell was lifted in more than one universe. You know it, I know it. That is all. Cyclops and co. are concerned first and foremost about the spell being lifted in 616, that is obviously their main priority.
And hey, if we're bringing in the observations of people who have no clue about the cosmic order, then you might as well bring in this: http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/spectre_power.jpg, where Ralph Dibny calls Spectre the most powerful being in creation.

still, no one can prove that the spell being undone in 616 won't do the same in alternate realities.. Wanda's spell was created in 616, and for some reason, affected alternate realities.. now, you cannot say, that the same thing won't happen again in its undoing.. the proof of Wanda affecting alternate realities did not came out until more than a year later after HoM.. now, unless Marvel won't specifically say that the same spell was not lifted in another realities and Marvel itself will let its other alternate realities becomes extinct with mutants, that would be the time that i will be stand corrected.. also, Ralph Dibny cannot speak for Marvel's part.. Spectre himself is a jobber with being tricked by Neron and being possessed by Asmodel..

Your part about the Phoenix being the prime universal force of life is the sort of thing that plagues every pro-Phoenix argument, because it's the only thing that can be said in favor of the WPOTC. Apart from comments about her status, speculation, theories and hyperbole she has no actual feats that make her better than the Spectre, he's matched and exceeded everything she's actually done on paper. He has a ton of feats, she has barely anything.
There is no argument for the Phoenix winning that can exist without a large amount of hypothesizing and speculation being tossed in. There is an argument for the Spectre winning that exists based on concrete proof, facts andthings he has actually DONE on paper. I fail to see why speculation and probabilities should take precedence over solid facts. Which echoes in those scans you posted. Once again, you're saying "Phoenix should be able to do this", "Phoenix could probably do this", and so on. Not "Phoenix has done this".

and yet, you haven't made a solid proof that despite all of Spectre's feats that he can take out a being like the Phoenix.. everything mentioned about the PF is not hyperbole simply because one is just re-stating what Marvel has described the Phoenix to be.. most pro-Phoenix supporters described her as the fire of creation, the prime universal force of life, guardian of creation, the nexus of all psionic energy, the big bang, resurrection force, the force of life itself, etc is simply because that is how Marvel portray it to be.. it is no hyperbole whatsoever.. now the Spectre has indeed fought powerful foes with Anti-Monitor and Michael topping the list.. he was amped with the first one and lost in the second one.. now, you argue with the Logoz, which i believe is yet to be used in actual battle.. and once again, Phoenix feats are based on its host which greatly differs in powers levels..

No, but the absence of proof just serves to underline what I've already said: There is no argument for the Phoenix winning that can exist without a large amount of hypothesizing and speculation being tossed in.

nor does there is any support of it losing..

The outcomes are the same, with both doing nothing for either Warlock or Phoenix. The fact remains that Phoenix fought Beyonder twice. While using her own power, she could not even faze him, and she only affected him while she had a portion of his own power within her.

regardless of the outcome, the matter of how the feat was done matters.. say lifting a heavy boulder.. there is a difference in lifting in mechanical and lifting it my pure muscle power.. according to you, as long as it is lifted, it doesn't matter how the act was done.. yes, Phoenix fought the Beyonder twice.. first was with her own, then with his.. fact remains that what made the Beyonder put to his knees was not his power, but rather what Phoenix gave him along with his power.. yet all it gave was epiphany, probably, but the matter how it was done is far different with what you are saying with Adam Warlock..

Again, highlighted part is what I've been saying all along. It's not something you should be posting as proof until there's total, undeniable clarity on the entire situation.

you are basically narrowing the situation trying to focus on what Cyclops has to say, yet not considering what the whole story has shown so far.. look at the bigger picture than focusing on small words for it says so other-wise..

Respect is not proof of anything. There are plenty of powerful beings who respect the Spectre. Galactus respects Reed Richards, doesn't mean they're equals or anything close to it.

lol.. Galactus respects Richards for his wits, not because of his power.. and yes, that does not make Richards and him equal.. different from the whole PF-Death or PF-LT respect relationships..

spectre is more powerful in th classic version. although he still is a pimp... specter has had trouble from characters such as shazam and stuff. shazam is powerful in his own right and one of the most powerful wizards in the universe. but he is neither an abstract nor an embodiment of anything so I would put him on odins level, probably higher. but i do believe white phoenix is stronger than classic ion. odin can take specter but he might not win. team 2

@lord_oraculous016:

sadly, for unknown response i can't access the scans.. can you please post the actually scan..

Here:

now, from what i know, the Logoz is an aspect which gives the Spectre direct channel to the Presence.

Which is incorrect. Read the scans, the Spectre = the Logoz + a soul of a murder victim. Without the Logoz there is no Spectre. You cannot alienate one from the other. Your COIE example is flawed because the writers hadn't come up with the concept of the Logoz at that time, so questioning why he didn't so at that point of time is meaningless. Now they have. Call it a retcon if you will.

has the Logoz ever been used in battle?

This question makes no sense. All of the Spectre's power comes from the Logoz. Any time he's in a battle the Logoz is being used. It's like asking if Hulk has ever used gamma radiation in battle or if Captain Atom has ever used the Quantum Field in battle.

yet, that does not prove the the spell wasn't broken in alternate realities.. trying to emphasize that the spell was clearly been broken in one reality does not prove its not the same thing to alternate ones..

Logical fallacy. You're claiming that a spell that affected millions of mutants in each universe in an omniverse was lifted entirely, and your only existing basis for that claim is the emergence of six mutants in one universe. You cannot prove this claim. You know it, I know it. Until this is proven on-panel, it is a moot point. Common sense dictates that you follow Occam's Razor, selecting the view that makes the fewest assumptions. Your view makes unsubstantiated assumptions. Therefore, it is not valid. The only valid view is what has been seen on panel, and only one universe has been seen to have the spell removed on panel. Simple as that.

also, as i remember, Gabriel Cohuelo, one of the Five Lights was there during AoX, so it is safe to say that Wanda's spell has been broken..

LOL, what? Velocidad was in AOX because he was on Utopia when Legion created the AOX reality. That's all there is to it. And in the AOX reality, the Decimation never happened, over there the Decimation was a code-name for a mutant massacre by Exonim Sentinels. You'd have to be very liberal with facts to claim that AOX was proof that Wanda's spell has been broken throughout the omniverse. AOX wasn't even an alternate universe, it was just the 616 universe altered by Moira.

And while we're on the topic of AOX, Chamber was also depowered by Wanda after HOM. He currently has his powers back in the 616 universe because of Legion's reality warping. So either Wanda's great omniverse-affecting, oh-no-reality-will-fall-apart-if-we-try-to-lift-it spell has only been lifted in one universe, or even Legion can lift the spell without any problems. Until there is actual proof that the spell was lifted in more than one universe, WPOTC's "best feat" is something Legion pulled off in his sleep, literally. Big whoop.

Wanda's clone recreating the feat and affecting an alternate version of Jean Grey proves nothing since that is not even the real Jean Grey or did she ever possessed the "true" Phoenix Force..

How many times do I need to say this? That is not the point. The spell clearly exists in at least one reality other than 616, which contradicts your claim that it affected all realities.

Also, it was confirmed again in Age of Apocalypse #1 that AOA Jean has lost both her powers and the Phoenix Force from that reality. As did a bunch of other mutants.

The spell still exists. You claimed that it was lifted in all realities. Incorrect. It CLEARLY exists in AT LEAST ONE NON-616 REALITY. That is all.

still, no one can prove that the spell being undone in 616 won't do the same in alternate realities.. Wanda's spell was created in 616, and for some reason, affected alternate realities.. now, you cannot say, that the same thing won't happen again in its undoing..

I think I've covered all of this above.

the proof of Wanda affecting alternate realities did not came out until more than a year later after HoM..

You're just proving my point. Until the proof of Wanda affecting alternate realities came out, NO ONE claimed that she had deleted the mutant gene throughout the omniverse. Why would they? There was no proof of it, and so it was concluded that it only affected one reality. And until the proof of the spell being lifted in more than one reality emerges, it is wrong to claim that it affected all realities.

now, unless Marvel won't specifically say that the same spell was not lifted in another realities and Marvel itself will let its other alternate realities becomes extinct with mutants, that would be the time that i will be stand corrected..

"Stand corrected" implies acknowledgement of the possibility that your statement is wrong. Thanks for that. Until Marvel says or does something of the sort:

a) You cannot prove your argument to a certainty; and

b) hell, you can't even prove your argument beyond a reasonable doubt.

Your statement's basis is faulty from head to toe; I'm asking you to prove that something happened and you're countering with "Prove that it did not happen". Come on, surely you can see how ridiculous that sounds.

also, Ralph Dibny cannot speak for Marvel's part..

.........when did I claim Ralph Dibny was speaking for Marvel? Again you fail to see the point; if the opinion of an uninformed observer like Cyclops counts for something, then so does Dibny's.

And if you want another uninformed observer's opinion, here's Enchantress saying nothing and no one is more powerful than the Spectre. I guess that's valid too?

Spectre himself is a jobber with being tricked by Neron and being possessed by Asmodel..

*sigh*

I'm sorry, but I'm just so sick and tired of people who've never read anything with the Spectre in it or understood the context behind his versions claiming he's a jobber. He's not. The fact that you're continually using feats from Day of Judgement and Day of Vengeance just tells me that you have no idea that the unbound Spectre is his weakest form. You're using feats from the weakest version of the Spectre to back up the claim that a featless wonder like WPOTC could beat him? And then, in the same breath, claiming that it's not fair to judge WPOTC from the unremarkable, insufficient showings of its hosts and incarnations? Hypocrisy much?

He was tricked by Neron for the same reason he was tricked by Eclipso, without a host his judgement is faulty and his faculties are not at their optimum level. Simple as that. Eclipso even made a statement to that effect.

You're not going to make any headway claiming that Spectre's weakest incarnation somehow defines what he is at his peak.

And are you conveniently forgetting that the unbound Spectre also defeated and bound Neron and Asmodel simultaneously?

As for your claim that Asmodel possessed the Spectre, what are you saying? He hosted it the way everyone does. Do you also think Hal Jordan, Martian Manhunter, Madame Xanadu, Jim Corrigan and Crispus Allen all "possessed" the Spectre just because they were its hosts at one point or another? LOL. And the Spectre left Asmodel when it chose to and he could do nothing to stop it.

You're being extremely disingenuous with the showings of both the Phoenix Force and the Spectre. I suppose I should just be grateful that you didn't try to use the Batkick as proof that WPOTC would win. Right?

and yet, you haven't made a solid proof that despite all of Spectre's feats that he can take out a being like the Phoenix..

This is hilarious, really. The only (and I do mean ONLY) reason that you have put forward to back up the claim that Spectre can't take down Phoenix despite his VASTLY superior feats is essentially "But she's the Phoenix. She wins!". Give me a break. You have not provided any feats to indicate that WPOTC can even singe the hair on the neck of Spectre at his peak. That's how ridiculous this is.

I know you can't do so, because she doesn't have any. And since that's the case, perhaps she shouldn't be used on the battle forums, or perhaps people should stop trying to claim she can beat people with feats vastly superior to hers.

everything mentioned about the PF is not hyperbole simply because one is just re-stating what Marvel has described the Phoenix to be.. most pro-Phoenix supporters described her as the fire of creation, the prime universal force of life, guardian of creation, the nexus of all psionic energy, the big bang, resurrection force, the force of life itself, etc is simply because that is how Marvel portray it to be.. it is no hyperbole whatsoever..

This is by far the worst part of any pro-Phoenix argument. Because you never get any actual feats, you're just expected to rely on empty platitudes as if they actually mean something.

I mean, if we actually give your postulation that feats don't matter any credibility, then the argument just winds down to you saying "PHOENIX IS DA PASSION OF CREATION!", to which I respond "SPECTRE IS GOD'S VENGEANCE!", and then you say "PHOENIX IS FIRE N LYFE, NOW AND FOREVER!", to which I respond "SPECTRE IS DA DIVINE ENGINE OF WRATH!", and then you say "LIVING TRIBUNAL SAID PHOENIX WAS KEWL AND STUFF!", to which I respond "MICHAEL SAID SPECTRE'S POWER WAS LIKE, SUPER AWESOME!".

And then we just keep hurling meaningless epithets at each other and get nowhere as a result. Battle feats DO matter here, because for every set of platitudes you can attribute to the Phoenix, the Spectre has his own batch of superlative descriptions to match. What differentiates them are the actual demonstrations of their power, and that is where WPOTC falls short, and why Spectre wins.

now the Spectre has indeed fought powerful foes with Anti-Monitor and Michael topping the list..

And WPOTC has fought no one of any real note or significance to compare with multiversal powerhouses like the Anti-Monitor, Parallax and Michael. Another reason why she cannot logically win.

now, you argue with the Logoz, which i believe is yet to be used in actual battle..

Asking me to prove that Spectre has used the Logoz in battle is roughly as ridiculous as asking for proof that Juggernaut has used the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak in battle.

and once again, Phoenix feats are based on its host which greatly differs in powers levels..

So too for the Spectre. And if you want to compare the average power demonstrated by the hosts of the Phoenix to the average power demonstrated by the hosts of the Spectre, WPOTC would still fall short. Any way you feel like cutting it, she has done nothing and fought no one to indicate she can beat someone with feats on the Spectre's level.

nor does there is any support of it losing..

See above.

regardless of the outcome, the matter of how the feat was done matters.. say lifting a heavy boulder.. there is a difference in lifting in mechanical and lifting it my pure muscle power.. according to you, as long as it is lifted, it doesn't matter how the act was done..

And again, you're doing nothing other than proving my point. If you asked me to lift a heavy boulder as a test of my own strength, I would not be able to do it. I could do so using some kind of machine, but that would NOT be my own strength and so it does not represent my own capabilities.

A similar situation exists here. Using her own power, Phoenix failed to do anything to the Beyonder. When he had a portion of his own power that he granted her, only then was she able to achieve anything, no matter how irrelevant or inconsequential the result is on the outcome of this match. That does not represent her own capabilities, or there would be an incident of her achieving something without any borrowed power.

you are basically narrowing the situation trying to focus on what Cyclops has to say, yet not considering what the whole story has shown so far.. look at the bigger picture than focusing on small words for it says so other-wise..

I think I've already expressed my thoughts on what Cyclop's opinion means, if it even means anything. You're asking me to look at a bigger picture that does not exist yet. Until it does, anything you say is speculation.

@CitizenBane: ...

Here:

Nice scans..

Which is incorrect. Read the scans, the Spectre = the Logoz + a soul of a murder victim. Without the Logoz there is no Spectre. You cannot alienate one from the other. Your COIE example is flawed because the writers hadn't come up with the concept of the Logoz at that time, so questioning why he didn't so at that point of time is meaningless. Now they have. Call it a retcon if you will.

so, the easiest way of putting is it being retcon..

This question makes no sense. All of the Spectre's power comes from the Logoz. Any time he's in a battle the Logoz is being used. It's like asking if Hulk has ever used gamma radiation in battle or if Captain Atom has ever used the Quantum Field in battle.

so therefore, the power of the Logoz can only be as good as the power the Spectre has displayed so far.. so now, even with all the Logoz shenanigans, has the Spectre ever displayed feats that would show that he can out do a being similar to the Phoenix.. coz, from what i am standing, the whole Logoz thing is just an explanation of his origins and power characteristics, and with that saying, the Logoz hasn't done anything remotely impressive aside from the very same thing you accuse of the Phoenix, assumptions basing on its status..

Logical fallacy. You're claiming that a spell that affected millions of mutants in each universe in an omniverse was lifted entirely, and your only existing basis for that claim is the emergence of six mutants in one universe. You cannot prove this claim. You know it, I know it. Until this is proven on-panel, it is a moot point. Common sense dictates that you follow Occam's Razor, selecting the view that makes the fewest assumptions. Your view makes unsubstantiated assumptions. Therefore, it is not valid. The only valid view is what has been seen on panel, and only one universe has been seen to have the spell removed on panel. Simple as that.

going back and evaluating everything, contrary to what you said, i never said that the birth of the Mutant Messiah lifted the curse on the omniverse, all i said is that it uplift a spell that spanned across the omniverse.. now, it is true that it is yet to be proven if the birth of the mutant messiah also undid a spell across every reality, but what is important, it undid the spell in the first place.. a spell the spanned across many realities and was supposed to be absolute.. and going by your very definition, the only valid view is what has been seen on panel, going by my original statement, what i said is a fact.. simple as that..

LOL, what? Velocidad was in AOX because he was on Utopia when Legion created the AOX reality. That's all there is to it. And in the AOX reality, the Decimation never happened, over there the Decimation was a code-name for a mutant massacre by Exonim Sentinels. You'd have to be very liberal with facts to claim that AOX was proof that Wanda's spell has been broken throughout the omniverse. AOX wasn't even an alternate universe, it was just the 616 universe altered by Moira.
And while we're on the topic of AOX, Chamber was also depowered by Wanda after HOM. He currently has his powers back in the 616 universe because of Legion's reality warping. So either Wanda's great omniverse-affecting, oh-no-reality-will-fall-apart-if-we-try-to-lift-it spell has only been lifted in one universe, or even Legion can lift the spell without any problems. Until there is actual proof that the spell was lifted in more than one universe, WPOTC's "best feat" is something Legion pulled off in his sleep, literally. Big whoop.

one simple thing answers your question.. Legion is the one manipulating the AoX reality, and whatever transpires are according to his will.. seeing as Chamber had his return to him by Legion after the mutant gene has already been reactivated is no big feat.. i won't even go with the whole WPOTC vs Legion's feat as i believe that was already been discussed..

How many times do I need to say this? That is not the point. The spell clearly exists in at least one reality other than 616, which contradicts your claim that it affected all realities.
Also, it was confirmed again in Age of Apocalypse #1 that AOA Jean has lost both her powers and the Phoenix Force from that reality. As did a bunch of other mutants.


The spell still exists. You claimed that it was lifted in all realities. Incorrect. It CLEARLY exists in AT LEAST ONE NON-616 REALITY. That is all.

i think i have already said my peace regarding this..

You're just proving my point. Until the proof of Wanda affecting alternate realities came out, NO ONE claimed that she had deleted the mutant gene throughout the omniverse. Why would they? There was no proof of it, and so it was concluded that it only affected one reality. And until the proof of the spell being lifted in more than one reality emerges, it is wrong to claim that it affected all realities.

this one too..

"Stand corrected" implies acknowledgement of the possibility that your statement is wrong. Thanks for that. Until Marvel says or does something of the sort:
a) You cannot prove your argument to a certainty; and
b) hell, you can't even prove your argument beyond a reasonable doubt.
Your statement's basis is faulty from head to toe; I'm asking you to prove that something happened and you're countering with "Prove that it did not happen". Come on, surely you can see how ridiculous that sounds.

again, going back, i see nothing wrong from what i said.. i will quote my original post; "seeing have Cyclops believes that the power of the Phoenix is the key in permanently undoing the omniversal scale spell created by the Scarlet Witch sounds like its finally the time to reveal the PF's true power",.. now going by these words.. we can conclude that the Phoenix did undo a spell that spanned across multiple realities, but has it undo the same thing across these alternate realities, that is the question.. did i ever concluded that IT DID UNDO THE SAME SPELL ACROSS THOSE REALITIES, i believe not.. that is the reason why i initially posted the scans showing Wanda's spell affecting alternate realities to prove that the spell affected alternate realities, but never did i claimed that what happened in 616 also happened in those realities..

also, Ralph Dibny cannot speak for Marvel's part..

.........when did I claim Ralph Dibny was speaking for Marvel? Again you fail to see the point; if the opinion of an uninformed observer like Cyclops counts for something, then so does Dibny's.

And if you want another uninformed observer's opinion, here's Enchantress saying nothing and no one is more powerful than the Spectre. I guess that's valid too?

well, probably, but i guess, the Watcher himself who i think is far more credible than Cyclops once claimed the the Phoenix is second only to the Creator himself also counts..

^_^

Spectre himself is a jobber with being tricked by Neron and being possessed by Asmodel..

*sigh*

I'm sorry, but I'm just so sick and tired of people who've never read anything with the Spectre in it or understood the context behind his versions claiming he's a jobber. He's not. The fact that you're continually using feats from Day of Judgement and Day of Vengeance just tells me that you have no idea that the unbound Spectre is his weakest form. You're using feats from the weakest version of the Spectre to back up the claim that a featless wonder like WPOTC could beat him? And then, in the same breath, claiming that it's not fair to judge WPOTC from the unremarkable, insufficient showings of its hosts and incarnations? Hypocrisy much?

He was tricked by Neron for the same reason he was tricked by Eclipso, without a host his judgement is faulty and his faculties are not at their optimum level. Simple as that. Eclipso even made a statement to that effect.

You're not going to make any headway claiming that Spectre's weakest incarnation somehow defines what he is at his peak.

And are you conveniently forgetting that the unbound Spectre also defeated and bound Neron and Asmodel simultaneously?

As for your claim that Asmodel possessed the Spectre, what are you saying? He hosted it the way everyone does. Do you also think Hal Jordan, Martian Manhunter, Madame Xanadu, Jim Corrigan and Crispus Allen all "possessed" the Spectre just because they were its hosts at one point or another? LOL. And the Spectre left Asmodel when it chose to and he could do nothing to stop it.

You're being extremely disingenuous with the showings of both the Phoenix Force and the Spectre. I suppose I should just be grateful that you didn't try to use the Batkick as proof that WPOTC would win. Right?

nice scans.. i haven't read the whole comics.. i only had with me the one where Eclipso and Spectre trapped Etrigan.. thanks..

This is hilarious, really. The only (and I do mean ONLY) reason that you have put forward to back up the claim that Spectre can't take down Phoenix despite his VASTLY superior feats is essentially "But she's the Phoenix. She wins!". Give me a break. You have not provided any feats to indicate that WPOTC can even singe the hair on the neck of Spectre at his peak. That's how ridiculous this is.
I know you can't do so, because she doesn't have any. And since that's the case, perhaps she shouldn't be used on the battle forums, or perhaps people should stop trying to claim she can beat people with feats vastly superior to hers.

This is hilarious, really. The only (and I do mean ONLY) reason that you have put forward to back up the claim that Spectre can't take down Phoenix despite his VASTLY superior feats is essentially "But she's the Phoenix. She wins!". Give me a break. You have not provided any feats to indicate that WPOTC can even singe the hair on the neck of Spectre at his peak. That's how ridiculous this is.

I know you can't do so, because she doesn't have any. And since that's the case, perhaps she shouldn't be used on the battle forums, or perhaps people should stop trying to claim she can beat people with feats vastly superior to hers.

This is by far the worst part of any pro-Phoenix argument. Because you never get any actual feats, you're just expected to rely on empty platitudes as if they actually mean something.

I mean, if we actually give your postulation that feats don't matter any credibility, then the argument just winds down to you saying "PHOENIX IS DA PASSION OF CREATION!", to which I respond "SPECTRE IS GOD'S VENGEANCE!", and then you say "PHOENIX IS FIRE N LYFE, NOW AND FOREVER!", to which I respond "SPECTRE IS DA DIVINE ENGINE OF WRATH!", and then you say "LIVING TRIBUNAL SAID PHOENIX WAS KEWL AND STUFF!", to which I respond "MICHAEL SAID SPECTRE'S POWER WAS LIKE, SUPER AWESOME!".

And then we just keep hurling meaningless epithets at each other and get nowhere as a result. Battle feats DO matter here, because for every set of platitudes you can attribute to the Phoenix, the Spectre has his own batch of superlative descriptions to match. What differentiates them are the actual demonstrations of their power, and that is where WPOTC falls short, and why Spectre wins.

And WPOTC has fought no one of any real note or significance to compare with multiversal powerhouses like the Anti-Monitor, Parallax and Michael. Another reason why she cannot logically win.

Asking me to prove that Spectre has used the Logoz in battle is roughly as ridiculous as asking for proof that Juggernaut has used the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak in battle.

So too for the Spectre. And if you want to compare the average power demonstrated by the hosts of the Phoenix to the average power demonstrated by the hosts of the Spectre, WPOTC would still fall short. Any way you feel like cutting it, she has done nothing and fought no one to indicate she can beat someone with feats on the Spectre's level.

See above.

vastly superior feats may seem sound to much..

• Spectre fought Anti-Monitor who destroy many universes = Phoenix avatars used its power to create an energy matrix and abuse that power to compress alternate earths into singularity
• Spectre fought Michael and loss though he acknowledge his power = Living Tribunal said that the power of the Phoenix in the hands of a mortal is a threat to the multiverse
• Spectre prevented 2 alternate worlds from colliding = Phoenix while hosting Rachel allowed her to subconsciously combined to universes together
• Spectre has the power of the Logoz which makes him part of everything in existence = the Phoenix is the the source of all psionic energy that has existed, is existing and will exist in all realities in the omniverse

no because the actual WPOTC only displayed a universal feat, does not mean that is all she has.. Phoenix avatars have displayed impressive feats on their own.. and i can't see why those feats cannot be credited to her while the Spectre who have also had many host in the past from Jim Corrigan to Corpus Allen can be said so.. hypocrisy much? even you claimed that both the Spectre and the Phoenix has all these titles of superlative descriptions, and yet you would just conclude that because the Spectre has more viable feats, he wins.. the Spectre may have displayed great universal feats, but has he ever feats of multiversal levels.. answering me with how he fought Michael and Anti-Monitor would count as such simply because they are.. i am asking a feat of his own doing, his own power..

And again, you're doing nothing other than proving my point. If you asked me to lift a heavy boulder as a test of my own strength, I would not be able to do it. I could do so using some kind of machine, but that would NOT be my own strength and so it does not represent my own capabilities.
A similar situation exists here. Using her own power, Phoenix failed to do anything to the Beyonder. When he had a portion of his own power that he granted her, only then was she able to achieve anything, no matter how irrelevant or inconsequential the result is on the outcome of this match. That does not represent her own capabilities, or there would be an incident of her achieving something without any borrowed power.

probably same with the Spectre when he fought the Anti-Monitor.. at-least in Phoenix's cases at the end, it was her own power which made the Beyonder to fall to his knees and achieve his much needed epiphany..

I think I've already expressed my thoughts on what Cyclop's opinion means, if it even means anything. You're asking me to look at a bigger picture that does not exist yet. Until it does, anything you say is speculation.

same goes for me..

Not the point. Galactus is capable of achieving anything Reed has ever done, with more ease than Reed. He still respects him. The Living Tribunal has the ability to perform anything the Phoenix has been shown to do on panel. He still respects her.

still, it is on very different levels.. similar to how a wealthy merchant respects an intelligent peasant.. which is very much different on how the King of Spain respects the Holy Roman Emperor.. respect is not just the factor.. top tier abstracts respects and knows the power of the Phoenix, as well as its importance in the scheme of things..

note: sorry if some of by words does not fall in place.. i haven't had sleep since yesterday.. lol.. i think i'll be better tomorrow..

@lord_oraculous016:

so therefore, the power of the Logoz can only be as good as the power the Spectre has displayed so far..

......no. Read what I've said prior.

What does the Logoz do? When the Presence left creation, Michael used the Logoz as a focal point to recreate the multiverse over and over again countless times, something he can not ordinarily do on his own. Judge it's potential power from that.

And then imagine what a Spectre drawing all the possible power the Logoz can provide is capable of.

so now, even with all the Logoz shenanigans, has the Spectre ever displayed feats that would show that he can out do a being similar to the Phoenix..

.......why did I even bother writing all that? You said the same thing one response ago, I replied to that, and now you're just asking it all over again. A being similar to Phoenix? Spectre's never fought the personification of life, if that's what you're asking. Has the Phoenix ever fought God's wrath? No? That's what I thought. If we follow your line of questioning we'll just go round and round in circles since there's no way to get past "Phoenix is Phoenix". Spectre has fought multiversal foes. Spectre has recreated the DCU itself from scratch. WPOTC has not fought anyone of any note and her only feat pertains to one universe. Based on feats, which is sort of the purpose behind the battle forums, Spectre wins. I'll elaborate on the Spectre's opponents later.

and with that saying, the Logoz hasn't done anything remotely impressive aside from the very same thing you accuse of the Phoenix, assumptions basing on its status..

Again, just read what I've said prior:

All of the Spectre's power comes from the Logoz. Any time he's in a battle the Logoz is being used.

I do not know WHY you're asking if the Logoz has done anything remotely impressive when EVERYTHING the Spectre does is because of the Logoz. Again, it's like asking if the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak has ever done anything impressive, when everything Juggernaut does is because of it.

Phoenix only has assumptions based on its status. Spectre does not, and by association neither does the Logoz.

going back and evaluating everything, contrary to what you said, i never said that the birth of the Mutant Messiah lifted the curse on the omniverse, all i said is that it uplift a spell that spanned across the omniverse..

Backtracking? Shall I quote your own words back to you? Here they are, word for word, since you provided them yourself:

seeing have Cyclops believes that the power of the Phoenix is the key in permanently undoing the omniversal scale spell created by the Scarlet Witch sounds like its finally the time to reveal the PF's true power..

Now if you had no intention of using this as proof that WPOTC had demonstrations of power beyond universal level, since you clearly can't prove otherwise, why bring it up at all? It doesn't prove that Phoenix is more powerful than the Spectre, for the simple reason that you can't prove the spell was lifted in more than one universe, nor can you refute the evidence that it was not lifted from all realities. Answer: because you wanted me to believe this was an omniversal feat until it was shown that there was nothing to back up that claim, and that there existed things that contradicted it since there is currently AT LEAST one reality where the spell exists. And so, you backtracked.

now, it is true that it is yet to be proven if the birth of the mutant messiah also undid a spell across every reality, but what is important, it undid the spell in the first place.. a spell the spanned across many realities and was supposed to be absolute..

And once more, if you did not intend to try and pass off that feat as omniversal, you would not be making these sly asides about how great the spell was and what a tremendous effort it must have taken to remove it. It's a universal feat at best. Deal with it. Next.

and going by your very definition, the only valid view is what has been seen on panel, going by my original statement, what i said is a fact.. simple as that..

This statement that I'm making is also a fact going by what has been seen on-panel :"There exists no evidence that the spell was lifted in more than one reality, and given that the spell clearly exists in at least one non-616 reality, there is actually existing evidence that the lifting of the spell was probably confined to one universe". Simple as that.

one simple thing answers your question.. Legion is the one manipulating the AoX reality, and whatever transpires are according to his will..

Legion was not manipulating the 616 reality after the end of AOX, and in the 616 reality Chamber currently has his powers back. So if lifting the spell in even a single universe is oh-so-hard-that-only-the-Phoenix-can-pull-it-off, Chamber's powers should have simply disappeared once he re-entered 616. They didn't.

seeing as Chamber had his return to him by Legion after the mutant gene has already been reactivated is no big feat..

Incorrect. The gene was not just deactivated, it was erased from the genome of humanity entirely. It did not exist at all. When Beast searched through Kavita Rao's samples of mutant DNA, none of them had the mutant gene despite it being present in every single one of them before M-Day. Legion restored a gene that was no longer present in Chamber, and unless you want to speculate even more and suggest that when Hope was born the mutant gene miraculously reappeared in a dormant form in mutants everywhere (before you even try to claim something like that, it's not even close to being a possibility seeing as Beast or a host of other mutant geneticists would have noticed), my original point stands: WPOTC's supposed "best feat ever" is something Legion pulled off in his sleep, literally.

i won't even go with the whole WPOTC vs Legion's feat as i believe that was already been discussed..

Good, it will spare me the need to bring up how even the High Evolutionary was able to give Magneto his powers back.

i think i have already said my peace regarding this..

Me too.

did i ever concluded that IT DID UNDO THE SAME SPELL ACROSS THOSE REALITIES, i believe not.. that is the reason why i initially posted the scans showing Wanda's spell affecting alternate realities to prove that the spell affected alternate realities, but never did i claimed that what happened in 616 also happened in those realities..

I think what I've said above about your backtracking covers most, if not all of this. Did you explicitly make that conclusion? No. Is anyone dumb enough to not know that was clearly what you intended to be the conclusion and a supposed testament to the Phoenix' capabilities? Also no.

but never did i claimed that what happened in 616 also happened in those realities..

Good. I guess that with this statement we can put to rest any claims of WPOTC affecting more than one universe.

well, probably, but i guess, the Watcher himself who i think is far more credible than Cyclops once claimed the the Phoenix is second only to the Creator himself also counts..

This same Watcher during that same period of time claimed that only he was Galactus' equal and that he could shatter galaxies, despite the fact that he's never done the latter and the former is a ludicrous claim considering he's been punked by Surfer alone. He claimed that Ben Grimm's punch would not hurt the Surfer, and a few pages later Surfer was unconscious from that very same punch. Judge his credibility from those and from the era that claim was made. There are many more, there's actually a tumblr page dedicated to how ludicrous the Watcher's claims can get from time to time. And Phoenix is obviously not second only to the creator considering that PR Beyonder was shown to be superior to almost everything else in creation.

Spectre fought Anti-Monitor who destroy many universes = Phoenix avatars used its power to create an energy matrix and abuse that power to compress alternate earths into singularity

Again, not getting the point. Spectre fought someone of note. WPOTC did not, and has never done so.

• Spectre fought Michael and loss though he acknowledge his power = Living Tribunal said that the power of the Phoenix in the hands of a mortal is a threat to the multiverse

The bolded words are where the important distinction lies: see how Michael judged Spectre's power based off their fight, while all the Phoenix has is words, as usual? That's my entire point right there. Feats vs words. That outcome is not debatable.

Phoenix avatars have displayed impressive feats on their own.. and i can't see why those feats cannot be credited to her while the Spectre who have also had many host in the past from Jim Corrigan to Corpus Allen can be said so.. hypocrisy much?

You can! Please, go ahead and do so! Just one thing: before you jump in with all the best feats of the hosts, keep in mind that you also have to deal with all their ignominious defeats. Jean's been killed by Xorn, Rachel's been smacked down by Thor, Giraud's been restrained by Martinex, yada yada. You cannot have it both ways, you have to take the good with the bad. But of course, any time the PF or one of its hosts loses anything you want to claim it's either PIS, jobbing or bad writing. Convenient argument right there.

even you claimed that both the Spectre and the Phoenix has all these titles of superlative descriptions, and yet you would just conclude that because the Spectre has more viable feats, he wins..

Yes, I would. Why wouldn't I? The Spectre has actual feats against actual opponents, all the Phoenix has are words. Why should feats and facts take second place to statements and speculation?

the Spectre may have displayed great universal feats, but has he ever feats of multiversal levels..

Why are you asking me this when I've already provided three? You claimed on the last page that the Spectre had only shown power on a universal level. I disproved that. A better question would be: who has the Phoenix fought with feats on the Spectre's level? No one.

i am asking a feat of his own doing, his own power..

Unlike the Phoenix, the Spectre doesn't rely solely on borrowed power to even faze his opponents. Zero Hour Parallax had power on a multiversal scale, he was resurrecting several alternate timelines and universes as a side-effect of his power. And when ZHP fought the Spectre, he only managed to hurt him with a single energy blast, and even mustering up enough energy to hurt the Spectre required so much effort that Parallax was drained of all his power which resulted in his defeat. In contrast, the Spectre was fine at the end of the fight and still possessed enough energy to use Waverider as a conduit to recreate the DCU from scratch. That's another battle feat for the Spectre, to be compared with......nothing from the Phoenix.

probably same with the Spectre when he fought the Anti-Monitor..

Probably shouldn't bring the Anti-Monitor into this since based on feats, he'd destroy Phoenix as well. Annihilating thousands of universes before the Monitors even cottoned on to what was happening beats any feat the Phoenix has ever performed.

at-least in Phoenix's cases at the end, it was her own power which made the Beyonder to fall to his knees and achieve his much needed epiphany..

It was not. The math is painfully simple.

Phoenix alone = no effect on the Beyonder

Phoenix + a portion of the Beyonder's power that he gave her = an effect on the Beyonder

There's no need to keep bringing up something that's been refuted already.

same goes for me..

Glad we agree on that.

still, it is on very different levels.. similar to how a wealthy merchant respects an intelligent peasant..

This analogy is irrelevant unless you assume the merchant is an idiot. Galactus is a genius in his own right and he's capable of achieving anything Reed has ever done, except with less effort given his resources. He still respects him.

which is very much different on how the King of Spain respects the Holy Roman Emperor

This as well. What can the King of Spain do that the Holy Roman Emperor cannot do with less effort?

top tier abstracts respects and knows the power of the Phoenix, as well as its importance in the scheme of things..

Replace "Phoenix" with "Spectre" and you'll see how pointless this argument is, which brings me back to what I've already said.

This is by far the worst part of any pro-Phoenix argument. Because you never get any actual feats, you're just expected to rely on empty platitudes as if they actually mean something.

I mean, if we actually give your postulation that feats don't matter any credibility, then the argument just winds down to you saying "PHOENIX IS DA PASSION OF CREATION!", to which I respond "SPECTRE IS GOD'S VENGEANCE!", and then you say "PHOENIX IS FIRE N LYFE, NOW AND FOREVER!", to which I respond "SPECTRE IS DA DIVINE ENGINE OF WRATH!", and then you say "LIVING TRIBUNAL SAID PHOENIX WAS KEWL AND STUFF!", to which I respond "MICHAEL SAID SPECTRE'S POWER WAS LIKE, SUPER AWESOME!".

And then we just keep hurling meaningless epithets at each other and get nowhere as a result. Battle feats DO matter here, because for every set of platitudes you can attribute to the Phoenix, the Spectre has his own batch of superlative descriptions to match. What differentiates them are the actual demonstrations of their power, and that is where WPOTC falls short, and why Spectre wins.

@CitizenBane: ...

......no. Read what I've said prior.
What does the Logoz do? When the Presence left creation, Michael used the Logoz as a focal point to recreate the multiverse over and over again countless times, something he can not ordinarily do on his own.Judge it's potential power from that.
And then imagine what a Spectre drawing all the possible power the Logoz can provide is capable of.

so from what you are saying, its basically same as an assumption.. using it as a focal point doesn't really say much of what it can do.. from what i see, it was Michael who performed the feat, the Logoz being the focal point only served as you say it did, a focal point.. Dr. Strange's Sanctum Sanctorum

......why did I even bother writing all that? You said the same thing one response ago, I replied to that, and now you're just asking it all over again. A being similar to Phoenix? Spectre's never fought the personification of life, if that's what you're asking. Has the Phoenix ever fought God's wrath? No? That's what I thought. If we follow your line of questioning we'll just go round and round in circles since there's no way to get past "Phoenix is Phoenix". Spectre has fought multiversal foes. Spectre has recreated the DCU itself from scratch. WPOTC has not fought anyone of any note and her only feat pertains to one universe. Based on feats, which is sort of the purpose behind the battle forums, Spectre wins. I'll elaborate on the Spectre's opponents later.

that is basically it.. battle forums indeed based answers on battle feats, exceptions to the rule can be include.. Eternity has no actual feat, Death's greatest feat is destroying a reality corrupted by the Many Angled Ones.. so can you put them above the Spectre? the Molecule Man fought the Beyonder and yet, he cannot affect conceptual abstracts such as Death..

Again, just read what I've said prior:
All of the Spectre's power comes from the Logoz. Any time he's in a battle the Logoz is being used.
I do not know WHY you're asking if the Logoz has done anything remotely impressive when EVERYTHING the Spectre does is because of the Logoz. Again, it's like asking if the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak has ever done anything impressive, when everything Juggernaut does is because of it.
Phoenix only has assumptions based on its status. Spectre does not, and by association neither does the Logoz.

all i am saying is that. all we can do is based the powers of the Logoz to what the Spectre has done so far, not based the Spectre's power to that of the Logoz, for as you say, we can only judge and imagine on what the Logoz has done so far, and being a focal point doesn't show its power.. when has it that being used as a focal point became a testament of one's power?

Backtracking? Shall I quote your own words back to you? Here they are, word for word, since you provided them yourself:
seeing have Cyclops believes that the power of the Phoenix is the key in permanently undoing the omniversal scale spell created by the Scarlet Witch sounds like its finally the time to reveal the PF's true power..
Now if you had no intention of using this as proof that WPOTC had demonstrations of power beyond universal level, since you clearly can't prove otherwise, why bring it up at all? It doesn't prove that Phoenix is more powerful than the Spectre, for the simple reason that you can't prove the spell was lifted in more than one universe, nor can you refute the evidence that it was not lifted from all realities. Answer: because you wanted me to believe this was an omniversal feat until it was shown that there was nothing to back up that claim, and that there existed things that contradicted it since there is currently AT LEAST one reality where the spell exists. And so, you backtracked.

whether you want to believe it to do an omniversal feat is under your own interpretation.. the post was clear.. i never said it broke the spell simultaneously throughout the omniverse, all i said is that it broke a spell which affected the omniverse.. now, i guess, anyone who reads comics and understand the difference of the two specially if you have knowledge of what has transpired..

And once more, if you did not intend to try and pass off that feat as omniversal, you would not be making these sly asides about how great the spell was and what a tremendous effort it must have taken to remove it. It's a universal feat at best. Deal with it. Next.

why would i removed it.. was it a sly act.. i don't think so.. it all goes down to interpretations.. universal feat at-best, probably.. who knows..

This statement that I'm making is also a fact going by what has been seen on-panel :"There exists no evidence that the spell was lifted in more than one reality, and given that the spell clearly exists in at least one non-616 reality, there is actually existing evidence that the lifting of the spell was probably confined to one universe". Simple as that.

probably.. say it is a universal feat at-least for now.. wheter universal or omniversal feat it may be, the best thing to described it is it undid the SW's spell.. that's basically it..

Legion was not manipulating the 616 reality after the end of AOX, and in the 616 reality Chamber currently has his powers back. So if lifting the spell in even a single universe is oh-so-hard-that-only-the-Phoenix-can-pull-it-off, Chamber's powers should have simply disappeared once he re-entered 616. They didn't.

i'm not discussing Legion for i what to stay on the topic.. ^_^

Incorrect. The gene was not just deactivated, it was erased from the genome of humanity entirely. It did not exist at all. When Beast searched through Kavita Rao's samples of mutant DNA, none of them had the mutant gene despite it being present in every single one of them before M-Day. Legion restored a gene that was no longer present in Chamber, and unless you want to speculate even more and suggest that when Hope was born the mutant gene miraculously reappeared in a dormant form in mutants everywhere (before you even try to claim something like that, it's not even close to being a possibility seeing as Beast or a host of other mutant geneticists would have noticed), my original point stands: WPOTC's supposed "best feat ever" is something Legion pulled off in his sleep, literally.

^same as above..

Good, it will spare me the need to bring up how even the High Evolutionary was able to give Magneto his powers back.

true.. same as for the M'kraan Crystal and Xavier, the Terrigen Mist and Quicksilver, etc.. point is none of them managed to re-activate mutation in general, the x-gene that lay dormant on normal humans and by the rules of nature should have been awaken..

Me too.

^_^

I think what I've said above about your backtracking covers most, if not all of this. Did you explicitly make that conclusion? No. Is anyone dumb enough to not know that was clearly what you intended to be the conclusion and a supposed testament to the Phoenix' capabilities? Also no.

your words, not mine.. your interpretation, not mine.. i just said what was shown.. it all goes down to ones understanding of the post.. it doesn't take a genius to understand what i said.. if you go back, i never supported the idea.. you keep labeling it as an assumption.. did i correct you, and tried to prove it as omniversal, no.. say want you want to say.. if it means to you that much, i agree, its universal level feat -- for now..

Good. I guess that with this statement we can put to rest any claims of WPOTC affecting more than one universe.

^_^

This same Watcher during that same period of time claimed that only he was Galactus' equal and that he could shatter galaxies, despite the fact that he's never done the latter and the former is a ludicrous claim considering he's been punked by Surfer alone. He claimed that Ben Grimm's punch would not hurt the Surfer, and a few pages later Surfer was unconscious from that very same punch. Judge his credibility from those and from the era that claim was made. There are many more, there's actually a tumblr page dedicated to how ludicrous the Watcher's claims can get from time to time. And Phoenix is obviously not second only to the creator considering that PR Beyonder was shown to be superior to almost everything else in creation.

now you get the point.. Spectre himself has been defeated by a number of people so calling him the most powerful is far from being the truth..

Again, not getting the point. Spectre fought someone of note. WPOTC did not, and has never done so.

point is, it perform a feat showing it capable of something akin to what the Spectre has fought while he was amped.. battles are not the only source of viable feats..

The bolded words are where the important distinction lies: see how Michael judged Spectre's power based off their fight, while all the Phoenix has is words, as usual? That's my entire point right there. Feats vs words. That outcome is not debatable.

so by that the Spectre is the de facto winner? i guess i will discuss this later on..

You can! Please, go ahead and do so! Just one thing: before you jump in with all the best feats of the hosts, keep in mind that you also have to deal with all their ignominious defeats. Jean's been killed by Xorn, Rachel's been smacked down by Thor, Giraud's been restrained by Martinex, yada yada. You cannot have it both ways, you have to take the good with the bad. But of course, any time the PF or one of its hosts loses anything you want to claim it's either PIS, jobbing or bad writing. Convenient argument right there.

true, you cannot take the good from the bad.. but from what i know, everything as has a reason for bad showing.. you claimed that an unbound Spectre is its weakest form, i said that a host-less Phoenix is its most vulnerable state.. you said that the Spectre was tricked by Neron for the same reason he was tricked by Eclipso, without a host his judgement is faulty and his faculties are not at their optimum level, i said Jean was killed by Xorn because the Phoenix willed it to be so that she can be reborn 150 years in the future, you said that the Spectre left Asmodel when it chose to and he could do nothing to stop it, i said the reason why Jean was killed because of the "Coordinated Disinfection" planned by the Phoenix.. you cannot point your finger at me when you yourself explained a lot on the story line behind the character.. that is just basically it..

Yes, I would. Why wouldn't I? The Spectre has actual feats against actual opponents, all the Phoenix has are words. Why should feats and facts take second place to statements and speculation?

and that is all you can say.. probably because that is what there is.. you cannot prove that the Spectre has any way of defeating an opponent like the Phoenix, so you go for the whole, feats, i need battle feats shenanigan.. your mistake is, saying such makes loopholes in the fight.. battle feats are not always the only source of viable feats.. is Xavier gathering the minds of the entire skrull population a battle feat? i believe not.. is Dr. Strange re-creating the galaxy with one spell a battle feat? i believe not.. is Lucifer creating is own universe/multiverse a battle feat? i believe not.. is Michael re-creating the multiverse as you say a battle feat? i believe not? is Thanos killing half of the universe's population with a mere snap of a finger, a battle feat? i believe not.. is Wanda casting her spell and affecting the omniverse a battle feat? i believe not.. there are tons of feats that are not related to any battles and screams power..

Why are you asking me this when I've already provided three? You claimed on the last page that the Spectre had only shown power on a universal level. I disproved that. A better question would be: who has the Phoenix fought with feats on the Spectre's level? No one.

and yet, it has displayed feats similar to those of whom the Spectre has already fought while he was amped.. tsk tsk.. again, battles are not the only source of viable feats to consider..

Unlike the Phoenix, the Spectre doesn't rely solely on borrowed power to even faze his opponents. Zero Hour Parallax had power on a multiversal scale, he was resurrecting several alternate timelines and universes as a side-effect of his power. And when ZHP fought the Spectre, he only managed to hurt him with a single energy blast, and even mustering up enough energy to hurt the Spectre required so much effort that Parallax was drained of all his power which resulted in his defeat. In contrast, the Spectre was fine at the end of the fight and still possessed enough energy to use Waverider as a conduit to recreate the DCU from scratch. That's another battle feat for the Spectre, to be compared with......nothing from the Phoenix.

borrowed power? she fought the Beyonder.. a being who can defeat any of the Spectre's past foes with a flick of a finger.. and yet, even without battle feats, PF avatars have shown the power to combined universe unconsciously, or create and energy matrix and compress alternate realities into singularity.. also, i believe time-lines are different from universes.. if that is the cases, the PF also undid the effects of the SW's spell on time-lines such as that of the time-lines of Days of Future Past and XSE time-lines..

Probably shouldn't bring the Anti-Monitor into this since based on feats, he'd destroy Phoenix as well. Annihilating thousands of universes before the Monitors even cottoned on to what was happening beats any feat the Phoenix has ever performed.

proof? just because he can destroy universes, he can destroy the PF when an avatar of the PF itself has displayed akin to what did.. the Phoenix have already survived the destruction of a universe.. what change would it do even if it one or 1000, when the Phoenix has shown the ability to resurrect itself and promise every single life in creation the promise of resurrection..

It was not. The math is painfully simple.
Phoenix alone = no effect on the Beyonder
Phoenix + a portion of the Beyonder's power that he gave her = an effect on the Beyonder
There's no need to keep bringing up something that's been refuted already.

not really..

It was not. The math is painfully simple.

Phoenix alone = no effect on the Beyonder

Phoenix + a portion of the Beyonder's power that he gave her = no effect on the Beyonder.. until..

Phoenix + a portion of the Beyonder's power that he gave her + her won power which with all the totality of life = an effect on the Beyonder..

it has already been proven that the Beyonder can only be hurt if he wanted to be hurt.. he even told Rachel that he will allow her to kill him and he won't do nothing, but she refused.. now she gave him back his power.. and much more, her own.. like is is indicated in the scan, "HE SOUGHT HIS OWN POWER, BUT THIS IS FAR FAR MORE THAN EVEN HE CAN BEAR".. how can he even be affected by his own power? he asked them back, which complied.. The math is painfully simple..

Glad we agree on that.

^_^

This analogy is irrelevant unless you assume the merchant is an idiot. Galactus is a genius in his own right and he's capable of achieving anything Reed has ever done, except with less effort given his resources. He still respects him.

having respect for someone who can do great things yet is still very much beneath you is very much different than respecting someone whose power is considerable to yours.. no matter how Galactus respects Richards, even a first grader knows he can squash Richards at any given chance.. very different from that of the PF and its peers.. anyone can understand that..

This as well. What can the King of Spain do that the Holy Roman Emperor cannot do with less effort?

again different things.. a duke may pay respect to a peasant, but there are things only a duke can do.. and a king respects an emperor simply because of who he is and what he can do.. a peasant can never have the power of a king..

Replace "Phoenix" with "Spectre" and you'll see how pointless this argument is, which brings me back to what I've already said.
This is by far the worst part of any pro-Phoenix argument. Because you never get any actual feats, you're just expected to rely on empty platitudes as if they actually mean something.
I mean, if we actually give your postulation that feats don't matter any credibility, then the argument just winds down to you saying "PHOENIX IS DA PASSION OF CREATION!", to which I respond "SPECTRE IS GOD'S VENGEANCE!", and then you say "PHOENIX IS FIRE N LYFE, NOW AND FOREVER!", to which I respond "SPECTRE IS DA DIVINE ENGINE OF WRATH!", and then you say "LIVING TRIBUNAL SAID PHOENIX WAS KEWL AND STUFF!", to which I respond "MICHAEL SAID SPECTRE'S POWER WAS LIKE, SUPER AWESOME!".
And then we just keep hurling meaningless epithets at each other and get nowhere as a result. Battle feats DO matter here, because for every set of platitudes you can attribute to the Phoenix, the Spectre has his own batch of superlative descriptions to match. What differentiates them are the actual demonstrations of their power, and that is where WPOTC falls short, and why Spectre wins.

yeah.. falls short on what you ask from it, and yet you claim that demonstration of power is the key in winning.. and by your own standards, the Phoenix is not losing anytime soon as demonstration of power does not only lie in battle feats.. and that is a given fact.. ^_^

@King Saturn said:

holy crap... this is awesome.

It really is though lol i'm learning so much about the Spectre I never knew (Though i've always considered him to be up there based on Zero Hour alone)

In terms of the argument, it seems clear to me that Spectre>White Phoenix of the Crown. One has Hype AND feats, while the other simply has hype.

In terms of the fight, Spectre and Ion win. Odin may be a non factor here, but Ion as he originally was certainly isn't. If nothing else he and the Spectre simpy double team Phoenix.

Primal Spectre >>> Phoenix Force >> Classic Ion/ZH Parallax >>>> Odin This doesn't mean I believe Dark Phoenix could defeat classic ion Kyle, Just overall WPOTC is boss.

@lord_oraculous016:

so from what you are saying, its basically same as an assumption.. using it as a focal point doesn't really say much of what it can do.. from what i see, it was Michael who performed the feat, the Logoz being the focal point only served as you say it did, a focal point.. Dr. Strange's Sanctum Sanctorum

You have this somewhat alarming knack for looking at a sentence and just completely ignoring the point in order to go off on an irrelevant tangent. Once again that was not the point. Michael ordinarily cannot recreate the multiverse over and over again. He can do so to universes at a time perhaps, but not all of creation. He was able to do so because of the power the Logoz provided. It took a power that ordinarily affected one universe at a time (under normal circumstances) and enhanced it to the point where it affected every universe and every piece of creation simultaneously, over and over again countless times. That amplification is what the Logoz provided. Simple as that. If you want to believe the Sanctum Sanctorum is capable of providing a boost like that from its own power, be my guest. Honestly, when you ask "what can the Logoz do?", what were you expecting? Feats of it running around and blowing stuff up? It's a power source in Primum Mobile that connects to the Spectre. And that's all it is. Every feat that Spectre has performed? Recreating the DCU, purging Anti-Life from the multiverse, containing a multiverse, all of that is now possible because of the Logoz. There is no point in you continually asking what the Logoz can do when all of Spectre's feats and Michael's godhead feat are possible only because of it. If you believe that Michael can do that without the Logoz, feel free to present your proof of that statement. It's only an assumption as far as deciding what effect it has on the Spectre at full power goes, but even if Michael wasn't using the full power of the Logoz, bestowing a boost that essentially made Michael the Presence himself is a far greater feat than anything Phoenix has ever done.

that is basically it..

I'm stunned, honestly. Are you seriously trying to claim that unless Spectre has beaten DC's personification of life, he cannot beat the Phoenix? That is a senseless comment to make, and it is no less absurd than saying that unless Phoenix has beaten Marvel's personification of divine vengeance, she cannot beat the Spectre. It's an easy way out of an unwinnable debate since there's no way of countering a statement that silly. It cuts off any possibility of debate and reduces the argument to "Unless Spectre has beaten a DC Phoenix analogue/pastiche, he cannot win", which is utterly ridiculous.

battle forums indeed based answers on battle feats, exceptions to the rule can be include..

Exceptions to the rule cannot be included simply because you have no other recourse but to claim that feats don't matter for WPOTC even though the Spectre has plenty of them. You only have status to go off, and that really doesn't matter to me. Even the Living Tribunal has feats, even though people automatically say he wins because he's second only to TOAA. He's fought Nebulos, Protege, Slorioth and several others, and demonstrated that he's superior to the Infinity Gauntlet. He has actual battle feats to go ALONG with his status. The Phoenix does not. If the Phoenix' much vaunted status and platitudes have never afforded it wins over anyone of note, why assume they will do so here?

Eternity has no actual feat,

Eternity is a cosmic jobber who exists solely to serve as a punching bag for high-end reality warpers. Ask Thanos and Genis-Vell. Eternity can and has been defeated by universe-level reality warpers, Spectre fought a universe-level reality warper and defeated him without any issues. Eternity was getting eaten alive by the oditopians. His best feat is blowing up several solar systems during the Infinity Gauntlet. Spectre has contained a multiverse within himself and at least two of his incarnations have demonstrated that they do not need to exist on the physical plane of reality that Eternity represents. Storm has survived and endured contact with Eternity's consciousness. Martian Manhunter almost collapsed upon very brief exposure to the true nature of the Spectre when he tried to read Jim Corrigan's mind. And the Phantom Stranger once showed Swamp Thing that the ordered universe was a microscopic bubble in the eye of the Spectre.

Based on feats, Spectre > Eternity.

Death's greatest feat is destroying a reality corrupted by the Many Angled Ones..

As Lord Mar-Vell said, even death may die. The Spectre cannot die. Like he himself said, he will exist as long as there is a need for him in the multiverse. And Death didn't destroy the Cancerverse in the sense that she didn't eradicate or obliterate everything contained within it. Quasar said that she simply collapsed the Cancerverse and prevented anything from escaping it. Thanos, Nova and Star-Lord survived the end of the Cancerverse. As did all the Many-Angled Ones, all Death could do was cripple them, and none of them are as powerful as the Spectre. Shuma-Gorath wasn't even affected by the destruction of the Cancerverse, and he isn't as powerful as the Spectre either. Which begs the question, exactly what has Death done to indicate she can kill an unkillable aspect of the Presence? Keeping in mind that she herself has died before? And that she is susceptible to reality warping, which Spectre is not susceptible to and which is a power he possesses? And that she failed to kill a race of beings who are supposed to be unkillable, just like the Spectre, with the only difference being that none of them are as powerful as Spectre? And that Spectre has shown that he can recall people from the realm of Death at will?

so can you put them above the Spectre?

Of course not. Both Eternity and Death DO have battle feats, Eternity took on Thanos w/ the IG (as well as Beyonder and Protege at the same time, but since that was in Guardians of the Galaxy it's questionable whether it's 616 canon) and Death took on the Many-Angled Ones, as well as Thanos for a brief moment during the Infinity Gauntlet. But since none of their battle feats match up to the Spectre's (but both their battle feats are still more impressive than the Phoenix's few legitimate battle showings), you cannot conclude that they are above the Spectre based on them. Which is exactly what I've been saying about WPOTC all this time, she has done nothing against anyone to indicate she can beat the Spectre.

the Molecule Man fought the Beyonder and yet, he cannot affect conceptual abstracts such as Death..

Conceptual abstracts like.......the Spectre? Phantom Stranger is a conceptual abstract who exists for the entire multiverse, and Spectre beat him. Parallax is a conceptual abstract, the Spectre has beaten him twice if you count Parallax losing all his power in an attempt to inflict harm on the Spectre at the end of Zero Hour and getting forcibly ripped out of Hal Jordan and tossed aside by the Spectre during Rebirth. Reality warping doesn't really work on Spectre, either. The most current example of that can be seen in the last issue of Justice League, where Phantom Stranger explains that Pandora warped the reality of the entire DC multiverse, but beings like himself and Spectre were completely unaffected since they knew what had happened and had still lived through and remembered everything that took place before Flashpoint and the new 52, unlike everyone else in the multiverse.

and being a focal point doesn't show its power.. when has it that being used as a focal point became a testament of one's power?

I believe this has all been covered in the first paragraph. A focal point becomes a testament to one's power when it elevates a being who was already powerful to a position where he's essentially the supreme being of that actuality. Which is what the Logoz did for Michael.

whether you want to believe it to do an omniversal feat is under your own interpretation.. the post was clear..

And that's the whole point. It's not open to interpretation at all. Based on what has actually happened on panel, without bringing in any unsubstantiated opinions and speculation, this is once again clearly only a universe-level feat. It cannot be more than that unless you feel like explaining why there clearly exist alternate realities where the spell was not removed. Evidently you don't or you can't. It is universal, and that is all it is. It is not a probability. It is not a possibility. It is a certainty at this point of time. Did Scarlet Witch's spell affect the omniverse? YES. Did WPOTC remove the spell for anything more than just one universe? NO. It is that simple. This omniverse vs universe topic is dead and it was stupid to begin with, perhaps we can put it to rest now. There's no need to keep beating a dead horse.

probably.. say it is a universal feat at-least for now.. wheter universal or omniversal feat it may be, the best thing to described it is it undid the SW's spell.. that's basically it..

why would i removed it.. was it a sly act.. i don't think so.. it all goes down to interpretations.. universal feat at-best, probably.. who knows..

your words, not mine.. your interpretation, not mine.. i just said what was shown.. it all goes down to ones understanding of the post.. it doesn't take a genius to understand what i said.. if you go back, i never supported the idea.. you keep labeling it as an assumption.. did i correct you, and tried to prove it as omniversal, no.. say want you want to say.. if it means to you that much, i agree, its universal level feat -- for now..

Just going to paste these all together so I can respond to them en masse. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this discussion came up because of two things: a) the requirement for multiversal feats, which both the Spectre and the Phoenix have, though the Spectre has more of them; and b) the requirement for battle feats since this is, you know, a battle. The Spectre has fought several foes ranging from universal to multiversal, he has a plethora of battle feats to chose from. The Phoenix, in contrast, has next to none. Now if you intended to actually make a case for the Phoenix, you'd have to provide feats that were more than universal. Instead, you provided this? Either you provided it knowing fully well that it was not anything more than universal (which is what you're currently claiming, if I'm not mistaken) which means it's not much good or, like I said, you provided it and then backtracked on your intentions.

I am still more inclined to believe the latter, because setting aside the fact that it fails to prove your point (which is what it's supposed to do), there is no other reason for you to bring up stuff like Velocidad in AOX and claim --what was it-- "trying to emphasize that the spell was clearly been broken in one reality does not prove its not the same thing to alternate ones.. also, as i remember, Gabriel Cohuelo, one of the Five Lights was there during AoX, so it is safe to say that Wanda's spell has been broken.."

That sentence clearly indicates that you were trying to claim that the spell was broken over multiple realities. Otherwise why would you bother bringing the point about AOX up at all, when AOX was just the warped 616 reality, as anyone who's read the story knows? What you're saying now does not match up with what you said then.

now you get the point.. Spectre himself has been defeated by a number of people so calling him the most powerful is far from being the truth..

I have a list of the Spectre's most notable defeats lying around. Here:

1) Defeated by the Anti-Monitor. Now since you keep harping on about this I decided to go back and take a look at this fight. I don't have scans at the moment but if you've got the Crisis on Infinite Earths hardcover like I do, the fight is on pages 292-295. This isn't a bad showing for Spectre either. First (on page 292), the Anti-Monitor loses a lot of his power by breaching the wall of creation, so he then drains the power of all the heroes of the multiverse into himself and becomes massively amped. Then (on page 293) the Anti-Monitor steps into a portal to the dawn of time, but Spectre (who was not amped yet) pulls him back and holds him in place (WITHOUT ANY AMPS). Only after that (on page 294) does the Spectre start getting amped, as he himself tells the Anti-Monitor: "As you have absorbed the power of all those great earthly heroes, the Spectre shall absorb those of the sorcerers!", and from that point the Spectre starts to get the upper hand (the Anti-Monitor even screams "NO!" while the Spectre is overpowering him) and Dr. Fate says they need to contain the Anti-Monitor. But then (on page 295), the Anti-Monitor screams at Krona to open the time portal, and energy from the beginning of time itself till the present day rushes at the Spectre. The resulting explosion destroyed the multiverse itself and fused the remnants of the remaining universes into one single universe.

So what are the conclusions you can draw from this fight?

• Spectre was amped, but so was the Anti-Monitor, and his amp was a LOT higher than Spectre's. The Anti-Monitor had the power of countless heroes from across the multiverse drained into him, the Spectre only had the power of EIGHT sorcerers from one single universe.
• Even with only the power of eight sorcerers from one single universe, Spectre was still holding his own against the Anti-Monitor and arguably gaining the upper hand until the moment when Krona opened the portal and blasted him with enough energy to destroy the multiverse itself. He even restrained the highly amped Anti-Monitor before he got his own amp.
• A release of energy powerful enough to shatter a multiverse only KO'd the Spectre for a while.

All in all, not much of a bad showing.

2) Defeated twice by Michael Demiurgos during the third volume of Spectre's ongoing. Not really a bad showing considering Michael is the second most powerful being in DC and possesses enough power within his being to wipe out the multiverse. Spectre's defeat was inevitable, there's not much to read into this.

3) BFR'd by Nekron in the final issue of Blackest Night, which was PIS, no other word for it. Nekron claimed that Spectre could not harm him because he had no control over the souls of the dead. This blatantly disregards almost 30 years of post-Crisis Spectre continuity. He's always had control over the souls of the dead. He froze Hell and all the dead souls contained within it with a gesture, and when Martian Manhunter was the Spectre he brought back all the dead souls of Mars with a wave of his hand. When I read something like this I usually try to find some way of explaining it, but there's no denying it here: bad writing.

4) I've also heard (haven't read the story myself) that Eclipso gave him trouble or something like that in the volume of JLA that preceded Flashpoint, but I would not put too much stock into that since the Spectre has fought Eclipso at least three times prior to that and stomped him with minimal effort.

What else do you have? I'm honestly curious.

Now that that's out of the way, the main point: I never claimed Spectre was the most powerful being in creation. You claimed that Cyclops' opinion was relevant, so I brought in the opinions of two people whose opinions (that Spectre was the most powerful being in creation) are just as relevant or irrelevant as Cyclops'. Why do you think I kept stressing the phrase "uninformed observer"? My entire point was that if Cyclops' opinion is somehow relevant to this discussion, so are the opinions of Enchantress and Ralph Dibny. They're all equally valid. Which isn't saying much. The Watcher's comment (setting aside Uatu's track record of hilarious wrongness) is ridiculous for obvious reasons. We both know there are several beings/entities more powerful than the Phoenix, like PR Beyonder, LT, Nemesis and the Heart of the Universe. So......you've got two comments backing your claim, one of which comes from a source of no credibility and the other which is demonstrably wrong even if you didn't know the Watcher's track record. Nice.

i'm not discussing Legion for i what to stay on the topic.. ^_^

For someone who wants to stay on topic, you didn't have any problem bringing up AOX in the first place...

true.. same as for the M'kraan Crystal and Xavier, the Terrigen Mist and Quicksilver, etc.. point is none of them managed to re-activate mutation in general, the x-gene that lay dormant on normal humans and by the rules of nature should have been awaken..

And you arrived at this conclusion based on what? The Phoenix Force (if it was the Phoenix Force, we'll know all the details later) brought back six mutants on one planet and all of a sudden that's supposed to be a sign that mutation in general was re-activated? Then why were there only six new mutants? If mutation in general was reactivated, why haven't mutant births started reappearing with the same regularity that existed before M-Day? Why have there been no new mutants apart from Hope and the Lights? Why haven't the Cuckoos or anyone else on Utopia been able to track new births with Cerebro? Every new mutant birth would be a major event for the X-Men at this point, so why haven't any of them made even a passing comment about mutants being born with the same frequency they used to be, or indeed of mutants being born at all? Why haven't Beast or Kavita Rao or Dr. Nemesis or any of a dozen different noted Marvel geneticists commented on the reappearance of the mutant gene? Once again, you make assumptions that have not been substantiated and cannot be proven beyond all reasonable doubt. Which is par for the course at this point, honestly.

but from what i know, everything as has a reason for bad showing..

Perhaps, perhaps not, but your position is essentially that anything that doesn't portray the Phoenix as invincible/undefeatable/unstoppable/all-powerful is automatically bad writing. Surely you can see how ridiculous that position is? I went over the rest of that paragraph and legitimately LOL'd at you trying to make it seem like I'm unreasonable or trying to explain away the Spectre's defeats. I only explained the context behind the examples you quoted because for some reason you tried to argue Spectre would lose based off the showings of his weakest incarnation. It would be like if I claimed WPOTC dies horribly because Green Phoenix' mind was crushed by Proteus or that Dark Phoenix was restrained by Beast' tech and kicked down by Nightcrawler, or that the PF during Endsong was injured by Wolverine stabbing it repeatedly. You quoted a series of lousy examples based on a lousy foundation, I explained why they were lousy examples to begin with, and somehow what I did is similar to what you did and are still doing? Very well, setting aside the fact that I only explained the context behind one version of the Spectre since that was the only version that you chose to give examples for, you'd still need to explain the defeats, setbacks and otherwise underwhelming instances of several versions and avatars of the PF including Jean's Phoenix, Rachel's Phoenix, Giraud's Phoenix, the Cuckoos' Phoenix, etc. From what you've been saying so far, I know you're going to claim all their losses are bad writing, PIS or jobbing. To that I can only say: get real.

Also, I suspected your "coordinated disinfection" stuff was rubbish, so I looked into the Here Come Tomorrow story and it turns out I was right. Even in that storyline, No-Girl was able to disconnect Jean from the Phoenix with a thought. I guess that's PIS too, since everything that doesn't go perfectly for the Phoenix is PIS, right? The disinfection was only necessary because Scott hadn't hooked up with Emma, which was what caused the entire timeline to take place. All of that took place before Xorn killed Jean. The wound on the universe that she fixed was inflicted after her death. Her death at Xorn's hands was not part of any plan, not even a retroactive one, it was just a death at Xorn's hands. But of course that's PIS. Anything that doesn't go the Phoenix' way is PIS. Christ...

and that is all you can say.. probably because that is what there is.. you cannot prove that the Spectre has any way of defeating an opponent like the Phoenix, so you go for the whole, feats, i need battle feats shenanigan..

LOL. Let's be serious for a moment here, no one honestly believes that you're calling this "shenanigans" because you actually think you have a relevant point, it's more so because you can only take recourse in the "since Spectre has never beaten a Phoenix equivalent, he can't win", which is complete and utter nonsense. It is honestly one of the dumbest things I have ever heard on this site. I could just as easily say that since Phoenix has never beaten a Spectre equivalent, she can't win, and that would be just as nonsensical as what you put forward. Shenanigans.....sheesh. I really could not care less that the Phoenix has never faced and beaten anyone of any significance. I simply do not care. That's its problem. And like I've already said, if the mere words and status that you love so much and are attributed to the Phoenix have never afforded it any wins against anyone of note or any actual on panel feats against someone with Spectre-level power, let's not pretend they matter here either.

battle feats are not always the only source of viable feats..

I'd like to take this moment to LOL, because what you wrote after this is hilarious.

is Xavier gathering the minds of the entire skrull population a battle feat? i believe not..

Once again you completely miss the point. Xavier gathering the minds of the entire Skrull population is not a battle feat in the typical sense, but it has applications in a battle scenario, which the Phoenix' feats do not. If you pit Xavier against another telepath, say Exodus, it will come down to whose telepathy is superior, and there you can bring up this example as proof that Xavier is the better telepath, since Exodus does not have telepathy feats on that scale.

is Dr. Strange re-creating the galaxy with one spell a battle feat? i believe not..

It is not a battle feat, nor should anyone ever claim it as such. But as far as indicating whose magic is more powerful if you pit Strange against another magician, it becomes relevant. Because in that scenario, the question arises as to whose magic is superior, and you can use this example to show the scale of Strange's magic. Do you know why you can do so? Because it's an actual concrete feat, and it pertains to an aspect of Strange's battles.

is Lucifer creating is own universe/multiverse a battle feat? i believe not..

No, it's not, but it is a feat related to matter manipulation which is something Lucifer actually uses in fights. And Lucifer has actually entered fights, unlike WPOTC, he's fought the Host, Michael, Amenadiel, Fenris, the Silk Man and displayed a clear power advantage over both incarnations of Dream of the Endless. Lucifer tanking an explosion that could destroy multiverses without a scratch is not a battle feat either, but it illustrates his durability, which is something that actually comes into play in a battle.

is Michael re-creating the multiverse as you say a battle feat? i believe not?

No, it is not, but it is a function of the energy he possesses within him, so it is a feat related to energy projection which he has actually used in fights.

is Thanos killing half of the universe's population with a mere snap of a finger, a battle feat?

In a sense it is, it illustrates that with the Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos' power was superior to all the billions of people who died when he snapped his fingers.

i believe not.. is Wanda casting her spell and affecting the omniverse a battle feat? i believe not..

Same principle as Thanos, it illustrates that the power she wielded was superior to all the people who were affected by her spell. If they were not her inferiors, they would not have been susceptible to it.

So what was the point of this laughable exercise? All of the examples you give stem from a lack of understanding, what use are battle feats without anything or anyone to compare them to? All the feats you presented can be used in a battle if you compare and contrast them with similar abilities or feats that the opponent displayed. I'd have thought that was obvious and hence this would be completely unnecessary, but whatever.

and yet, it has displayed feats similar to those of whom the Spectre has already fought while he was amped.. tsk tsk.. again, battles are not the only source of viable feats to consider..

This makes me laugh. You realize that the only foe the Spectre has fought while amped is the Anti-Monitor, who as I've already pointed out above had an amp more powerful than the Spectre's in that fight. So are you harping on that fight as if it's the standard that proves Phoenix can win because you have nothing else to say? Tsk, tsk.

borrowed power? she fought the Beyonder.. a being who can defeat any of the Spectre's past foes with a flick of a finger..

We've already discussed this, but apparently beating dead horses is the favorite past-time of half the people who log onto the Vine. Fine, we can revisit it. Fighting someone is only really relevant if you can actually do something more than be a minor nuisance at best. I've already pointed out I don't know how many times that when Phoenix fought the Beyonder she used her full power against him and it didn't even tickle him. Sure, Beyonder can defeat any of the Spectre's foes with a flick of a finger. But he'd also beat the Phoenix with a flick of his finger if he so chose, so the point is moot. It's like claiming Batman would defeat Captain America because Batman has fought Darkseid twice. Batman did absolutely nothing to Darkseid on both instances, and so the fight is irrelevant.

and yet, even without battle feats, PF avatars have shown the power to combined universe unconsciously, or create and energy matrix and compress alternate realities into singularity

*sigh*

Why must I repeat myself? All those Phoenix-can-affect-a-universe feats are matched by all the Spectre-can-affect-a-universe-feats, all the Phoenix-can-do-this statements are matched by all the Spectre-can-do-that statements. So what differentiates them? Three guesses.

also, i believe time-lines are different from universes.. if that is the cases, the PF also undid the effects of the SW's spell on time-lines such as that of the time-lines of Days of Future Past and XSE time-lines..

No one ever claimed timelines and universes were the same thing. Why do you think I used the word "and"? Parallax was powerful enough to resurrect extinct realities. And for someone who claims that he never meant for the SW feat to be perceived as anything other than universal, you've got a uncanny knack for seizing any opportunity to claim otherwise. The point is: Spectre fought a multiversal abstract and even harming Spectre a bit required so much energy that Parallax was drained of ALL his power and lost. That says something about Spectre's durability. What feats does the Phoenix have against anyone of note to compare to that? Or do we assume the Phoenix' durability is suddenly at insurmountable levels simply because it's the Phoenix? Please.

proof? just because he can destroy universes, he can destroy the PF when an avatar of the PF itself has displayed akin to what did..

The Phoenix Force and its avatars have never destroyed a universe or anything even remotely akin to it. The Anti-Monitor destroyed countless universes in a heartbeat with one attack.

the Phoenix have already survived the destruction of a universe

Surviving by hiding in an egg in the White Hot Room. How terribly impressive. The Anti-Monitor survived the destruction of the multiverse. What did the Phoenix endure?

what change would it do even if it one or 1000

Did you honestly ask this?

when the Phoenix has shown the ability to resurrect itself

After centuries on end, and unless you want to claim that the fight should stretch on for that long for all intents and purposes the Phoenix' opponents wins the moment it runs away to the White Hot Room.

Phoenix + a portion of the Beyonder's power that he gave her + her won power which with all the totality of life = an effect on the Beyonder..

The highlighted part is what you're completely ignoring, which is a shame because its the only reason she was able to affect the Beyonder.

how can he even be affected by his own power?

Au contraire, it's because it was his own power that he was affected. Eternity was nearly killed by his own power when he created the oditopians. Reed Richards created a device that harnessed the power of a number of abstracts, including the Living Tribunal, and banished them back to their own dimensions. How can be affected by his own power? Ask Marvel, they seem to produce several examples of it.

no matter how Galactus respects Richards, even a first grader knows he can squash Richards at any given chance..

And again, this is not the point. Galactus and Reed Richards are being compared in terms of intellect while the Living Tribunal and Phoenix are being compared in terms of power. Galactus and Reed have comparable intellects, but Galactus has superior resources and is thus superior in the aspect that is being analyzed. But Galactus still respects Reed's intelligence. The Living Tribunal is easily capable of anything and everything Phoenix has ever done. He still respects her.

a duke may pay respect to a peasant, but there are things only a duke can do.. and a king respects an emperor simply because of who he is and what he can do.. a peasant can never have the power of a king..

Exactly, and in this respect Galactus and the Living Tribunal are the dukes and emperors, while Reed and the Phoenix are the peasants and kings.

By my own standards? What are you talking about? Given that I've produced several battle feats for the Spectre and expected you to reciprocate for two pages now, it should be fairly obvious to even the dullest observer that those are not my standards. If you've got anything other than "Phoenix is Phoenix", I invite you to bring it to my attention, otherwise this is pointless. Because claiming Phoenix wins because she's the Phoenix is the only way that she could possibly win, and so you've embraced that despite the fact that it makes zero sense.

@Supermanwithatan01 said:

Primal Spectre >>> Phoenix Force >> Classic Ion/ZH Parallax >>>> Odin This doesn't mean I believe Dark Phoenix could defeat classic ion Kyle, Just overall WPOTC is boss.

ZH Parallax has better feats then WCP