#1 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@strman123 - Gladiator

vs

@lvenger - Superman

- No prep

- No BFR

- Morals Off

Location: Coast City

#2 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@strman123 It seems you and I are debating in this tourney now. I've set up the thread here already. And I'm using Superman by the way.

#3 Posted by age_of_ultron_Prime2000 (1217 posts) - - Show Bio

I was waiting to see this for some time now.

#4 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@age_of_ultron_prime2000: If my opponent hasn't turned up by the time I next come back on, I'll make the opening argument. Should be interesting since I view Gladiator as one of the few Marvel characters who can give Superman a very good fight. Nonetheless I have some arguments up my sleeves :)

#5 Posted by age_of_ultron_Prime2000 (1217 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: lol i know because from what have i seen Strman123 knows how to use Gladiator but i haven't seen you with Superman but i'm sure that you will do great you too Strman123 and when the voting is open pls tell me ( and have fun both of you ) :D

#6 Edited by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

OK I'll make the opening argument whilst I wait for my opponent to get here. These 2 characters are quite evenly matched not just in terms of their powers but the level their powers are at. There are countless Superman clones but Gladiator is one of the few that based on feats can hang with Superman. However I still feel that Superman is the superior combatant in this fight.

First let's start off with striking feats. Though Gladiator has some good ones, Superman's are not to be scoffed at

Of course this is only a taster of how hard Superman can hit. Needless to say I think he can hit hard enough to damage Gladiator. Now let's move onto durability. Superman's survived planet busting explosions, Darkseid's Omega Beams (so Gladiator's eye beams won't be a problem) and hits from DC's biggest powerhouses such as Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel, Doomsday, Darkseid, Despero, heck even a being as powerful as a god

Thus I don't think Gladiator's hits will be out of Superman's range to endure. So how about his combat speed? Hypersonic+ at the very least if these scans are anything to go by

The last one is a speed blitz scan, something that Superman does a lot of. I can provide that link later if you wish me to back it up. Understandably Gladiator will do the same thing so this fight will be a fast, furious one with countless blows being thrown at the other in a very short space of time. Although Gladiator can no doubt duplicate Superman's heat vision and freeze breath, this won't be the deciding factor in the fight. Nonetheless Superman does have some impressive feats with heat vision

In the last two scans, some context is needed. This barrier couldn't be broken by John Stewart (although his ring was weakened) nor his cousin Supergirl. Yet a pi$$ed off Superman comes along and wrecks that shield no problem.

Now there are 2 main reasons why I feel Superman has the edge over Gladiator. The first is his experience with his powers. Superman has gained a great deal of mastery over his powers and can expertly apply them in combat

Again this is only a taster of how well Superman uses his powers. Gladiator may be on Superman's level but he won't have the experience of using his powers. In the miniseries Superman: World of New Krypton, General Zod, an expert military strategist and soldier allocated Superman to the Military Guild as a commander so he could teach the Kryptonian soldiers how to effectively use their powers in combat situations. If Zod can see Superman's experience with his powers, that's saying something about how experienced Superman is with them.

Secondly Superman has numerously more fighting skill feats than Gladiator

With those last two scans there was something in the story that gave Superman Batman and Wonder Woman's morals. Both of whom are far more lax in their morals than Superman. And yet he dominated Ultraman, an evil version of Superman with similar stats and Superwoman who's also on Superman's physical level. Imagine how outclassed Gladiator would be against a no morals Superman. Pressure points wouldn't be the only options Superman would use against Kallark

Well I think that concludes my opening statement. Your turn.

#7 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio
#8 Edited by age_of_ultron_Prime2000 (1217 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Well yes and because of your avatar i thought that you like Superman and that you know stuff about him but anyway even if you didn't know Superman you can use the web to search but i was 80% sure that you know him because you are using him so that means you know him good enough to use him in a Tournament.

Soo.... :D

#9 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@age_of_ultron_prime2000: I hope strman123 gets here otherwise it's not going to be much of a debate :P How good is his Gladiator knowledge and arguments btw?

#10 Posted by age_of_ultron_Prime2000 (1217 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Well from what have i seen in his debate vs Shazam he was good and using good feats but it wasn't much of a debate i will just say that he can counter you comment (Well i think) :D

#11 Edited by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@age_of_ultron_prime2000: The other guy really wasn't that good. I saw that debate too and there weren't any arguments made, just a few scans.

#12 Edited by Veitha (3362 posts) - - Show Bio

This is going to be a good battle, tell me when it's time to vote :)

#13 Posted by spiderbuck (2454 posts) - - Show Bio

This is going to be awesome.

#14 Posted by Deranged Midget (17856 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: That is a fantastic opening argument! I am officially excited for what should be a killer debate!

Moderator
#15 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Great start, I'm looking forward to this one.

#16 Posted by Strman123 (193 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry I was at college I normally only check this from 3PM-1AM Pacific time

#17 Edited by 18hunt (2948 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry, lvenger probably has got this

#18 Edited by Strman123 (193 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: How can you say that Gladiator doesn't have as much combat experience? He is the Majestor of the Shi'ar empire, he has to know quite a bit about strategy. Along with being in the Imperial Guard that has destroyed and nearly eradicated the Nova Corp. fighting Thor, the Fantastic Four, Phoenix Five (though not beating them he showed heart), etc. I would show some scans but I'm on my phone I'll be home from Krav Maga at around 7, 3 hours ish.

#19 Posted by Charetter115 (475 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: yeah, it was my first debate. I also was pretty sure I was going to lose anyway, I don't know too much about Shazam.

#20 Edited by Strman123 (193 posts) - - Show Bio
Strength Feat
Striking power
Speed and Strength
Punching Thor, Wish I had the rest of this one.
Durability.
What Reed Richards says.
Breaking Wolverine's Adamantium.
Resists Mind Control
Speed Blitzing
Continues to Speed Blitz
Cuts a Nova Corp member in half with his speed.
Fights Richard Rider
Extreme Durability taking punches from both Colossus and Namor who have the Phoenix.

@18hunt: I know but I'd rather fall fighting than just give up. :D

@charetter115: First debate with Gladiator and my 2nd debate :P

@lvenger: Lets go. Gladiator isn't as weak as most people put him as when he's mad like he will be in the fight without morals he can do some serious damage and take some. His fighting reaction speed isn't that bad either. As I have said before Gladiator is extremely skilled in fighting being part of the Imperial Guard and even leading it for some time. Also breaking Wolverine's Adamantium is an amazing feat that VERY few people have accomplished.

#21 Posted by Clark_EL (2675 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@strman123: What I meant is that Gladiator doesn't have any feats that show off his combat skills. You've mistaken combat strategy (for which Superman has some very good feats for too) for actual combat skill. I haven't seen Gladiator use pressure points or special moves against his foes. He doesn't seem to show any combat skills in his fights whereas Superman does. And I'll have a reply up to this later today I promise.

#23 Edited by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

Right here's my reply. I shall begin with some minor quibbles on your scans

@strman123 said:
Strength Feat

If you want to compare lifting feats then look at what Superman is capable of lifting

And I haven't even broken out the moon or small planet lifting feats yet. But I doubt lifting strength will decide the outcome of this fight. It's striking feats that give a better indication of how a fisticuffs fight between these two will go down.

@strman123 said:
Speed and Strength

If you're trying to use this as a speed feat for Gladiator you're mistaken in that regard. That is a travel speed feat and there is no indication Gladiator can fight at the speed he is flying at. There is a difference between travel speed and combat speed, the speed at which Gladiator can fight at. He might be able to move with a ship at that speed but there's no proof he can fight at such speeds. Same goes for Superman though.

@strman123 said:
Cuts a Nova Corp member in half with his speed.

Blitzing a featless, no name Nova Corps member isn't as good as you make it out to be either. Richard Rider is far more powerful than any Nova Corps member since he can amp himself up by tapping into the Nova Force directly thus making himself far more powerful than any individual Nova Corps member. He's done this before when the Nova Corps returned after the events of Annihilation. So Gladiator killing one Nova Corps member is no big deal considering a full power Richard is far more powerful than that one corps member.

As for the rest of your scans, they're good showings for Gladiator. That striking feat is better than most of Superman's own and clearly he can speed blitz. But so can Superman

Except for the times when he blitzed Mongul, blitzed Doomsday Rex, blitzed Darkseid, blitzed an Imperiex Probe, blitzed Gog, blitzed Gnarnite, blitzed a Kryptonian strike team, blitzed Deathstroke,blitzed Subjeckt 17, blitzed H/P Doomsday and BFR'd Batman before the Four Horsemen could react,

@strman123 said:

@lvenger: Lets go. Gladiator isn't as weak as most people put him as when he's mad like he will be in the fight without morals he can do some serious damage and take some. His fighting reaction speed isn't that bad either. As I have said before Gladiator is extremely skilled in fighting being part of the Imperial Guard and even leading it for some time. Also breaking Wolverine's Adamantium is an amazing feat that VERY few people have accomplished.

I never said he was. In fact I acknowledged it in my first post. As for the do serious damage and take some, so can Superman as I've showed earlier. And how are Gladiator's reaction speed btw? Any nanosecond reaction feats on hand like Superman can claim to have?

Seems as if Superman has the combat and reaction speed advantage in the bag based on this debate. As for the fighting example, let me repeat what I said earlier. You've mistaken combat strategy (for which Superman has some very good feats for too) for actual combat skill. I haven't seen Gladiator use pressure points or special moves or actual combat styles against his foes. He doesn't seem to show any combat skills in his fights whereas Superman does. Superman's had training from Wildcat for boxing, pressure point training from Batman, general combat training from Mongul and Wonder Woman too. Needless to say, Superman actually has proper combat feats to show and yet for all his position, Gladiator doesn't. If Superman can't get anywhere brawling with Gladiator, he'll revert to some combat techniques such as pressure points, kidney punches or other brutal techniques. This is morals off and with Batman and Wonder Woman's morals, Superman handily beat Ultraman, an evil version of Superman with his greater experience and knowledge of his powers. Imagine what he could do to Gladiator with no morals.

Furthermore you haven't replied to the greater power experience point. How will Gladiator account for the greater experience Superman has for his powers? It gives quite the edge in this contest. Also I've thought of another advantage Superman has over Gladiator. His power source. Allow me to elaborate. Gladiator's powers are psionic or mental in nature. Meaning if he thinks himself untouchable, he is. For the most part, Gladiator should be roughly on Superman's level in this fight. But Superman's power source is the sun which is a constant presence in the sky. Except at night time but he'll have enough stored energy to last if this should go into the night. My real point is that the sun is a far more reliable source than Gladiator's confidence. Superman will be constantly recharged and replenished by the Earth's sun whereas Gladiator has to rely on his confidence to stay as powerful as he is. And if he doubts his powers for even a flicker of a second against such a powerful foe as Superman, he's going down. Here's an example of what I mean. It's from Fantastic Four #249 - Man and Superman! where Reed figures out how to defeat Gladiator.

Now I'm not saying Gladiator will go down that quickly but if he doubts himself or doubts he can beat Superman, it's all over for Kallark. Superman is definitely capable of holding his own and wearing down Kallark's confidence to the point one flicker of unease will give Superman a big chance at victory. Overall Superman has the advantages in combat and reaction speed (unless you can prove otherwise), power experience and better combat skill. This should be enough to dampen Gladiator's confidence for Superman to take an edge.

#24 Posted by Strman123 (193 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I can't argue with most of your statements because Superman has appeared in 9000+ issues while Gladiator has only appeared in 500+ comics to show off his power. Nice debate so for but Gladiator is NOT on Superman's level.

#25 Edited by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I can't argue with most of your statements because Superman has appeared in 9000+ issues while Gladiator has only appeared in 500+ comics to show off his power. Nice debate so for but Gladiator is NOT on Superman's level.

It's not just about appearances, it's about what they've done in their appearances. And I hold that Superman has plenty of skill both in terms of using his powers and better fighting skills than Gladiator. I take it you'll respond later? And what do you mean by "Gladiator is NOT on Superman's level?" Do you think he's above it?

#26 Posted by age_of_ultron_Prime2000 (1217 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@strman123 said:

@lvenger: I can't argue with most of your statements because Superman has appeared in 9000+ issues while Gladiator has only appeared in 500+ comics to show off his power. Nice debate so for but Gladiator is NOT on Superman's level.

It's not just about appearances, it's about what they've done in their appearances. And I hold that Superman has plenty of skill both in terms of using his powers and better fighting skills than Gladiator. I take it you'll respond later? And what do you mean by "Gladiator is NOT on Superman's level?" Do you think he's above it?

Sorry about this but i think he meant that Gladiator is not on Superman level ( he is lower ) because he has little feats to use and Superman has a tone of feats and appearances.

#27 Edited by Deranged Midget (17856 posts) - - Show Bio

Brilliant work so far, and especially kudos to both Strman and Lvenger for picking apart the argument and responding with a respectable dose of scans! Keep it up guys!

Moderator
#28 Edited by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@strman123 said:

@lvenger: I can't argue with most of your statements because Superman has appeared in 9000+ issues while Gladiator has only appeared in 500+ comics to show off his power. Nice debate so for but Gladiator is NOT on Superman's level.

It's not just about appearances, it's about what they've done in their appearances. And I hold that Superman has plenty of skill both in terms of using his powers and better fighting skills than Gladiator. I take it you'll respond later? And what do you mean by "Gladiator is NOT on Superman's level?" Do you think he's above it?

Sorry about this but i think he meant that Gladiator is not on Superman level ( he is lower ) because he has little feats to use and Superman has a tone of feats and appearances.

Ah I see. Still someone like Odin has far fewer comic book appearances than Superman yet Superman has little chance of beating Odin. But I can see what he means. Superman has had more chances to show off his powers than Gladiator has.

#29 Posted by spiderbuck (2454 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow. In a hell of a fight, Supers wins 6/10. But just barely.

#30 Posted by Strman123 (193 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Yeah thats what I meant He hasn't done enough to show that he can fight Superman Congratz you win :D

#31 Posted by Clark_EL (2675 posts) - - Show Bio
#32 Edited by Strman123 (193 posts) - - Show Bio

@clark_el: Yup Gladiator hasn't shown to be on Superman's level.

#33 Posted by Clark_EL (2675 posts) - - Show Bio

@strman123: I'd say he is but that;s cool...you could have waited until votes came in as you might have won.

#34 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@strman123: You're giving up? That's the 2nd opponent who's bowed out against me before voting began. Ah well good debate buddy!

:: : :
No need to vote guys, my opponent's bowed out already.

@clark_el: So does this mean I'm through to the next round? How many more rounds are there before the final?

#35 Posted by Strman123 (193 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Superman's hard to handle with people who haven't show to be on his level or who can't exploit his weaknesses.

#36 Posted by Clark_EL (2675 posts) - - Show Bio
#37 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@clark_el: The final four? Awesome! Who else is in the final four?