Clark_El's Powerhouse Tournament: Dredeuced vs Oceanmaster21

@dredeuced (Barry Allen)

vs

@oceanmaster21 (Sinestro)

- No prep

- No BFR

- Morals Off

Location: Coast City

I will leave this comment here so i can follow you.

@dredeuced: nice.

Wait dredeuced actually one his last one? I'm actually surprised

...Why's that?

I didn't think I was that bad...

so wud u like to start or should i

It's just that. We 52 flash doesn't impress me, supes has no prob beating him

I would like for you to start. I had to open up my last fight and that was also against a Yellow Lantern, don't want everything to look too samey.

Well, I think I did a good job in my last thread showing what Barry was capable of. I know you voted in it, but did you read my points?

ok ill start , now since its bloodlust i already know barry is gonna bring his A Game, but Sinestro will as well sinestro

has fought and defeated gurdians hes been able to fight parallax hal jordan forawhile, so he has great durability now even tho flash is the fastest man alive. Sinestro already knows about the flash since hes faced the justice league on more then one occasion he knows flashes powers so he will keep to the air where he can domiante the flash from above.

I'll leave a comment here so I can keep an eye on this. Should be a good debate.

Can Barry vibrate through Lantern contstucts?

Exactly how do you plan on hitting Flash? You realize he's significantly faster than any lantern when it comes to combat speed, correct? If Sinestro spends his entire time flying in the air trying to shoot lasers at Barry, the only thing he's going to accomplish is exhausting his ring's energy supply. Barry's kept distance from Darkseid's omega beams, and nothing Sinestro puts out is even close:

Gallery

As shown, Superman couldn't even escape them and he's quite capable of blitzing the pants off any Lantern -- he's done it to Hal, and Hal's got better feats than even Sinestro, both destructive, defensive, and in reaction time. It's a little bit of ABC, but Flash clearly has superior combat speed to Superman or Sinestro. Even by Hal's own estimation, Barry is faster than even him or Superman:

Ignoring Barry's obvious ease at being able to avoid any attack a Lantern can put out, your main problem lies in the terrain: What are you going to do when Barry starts darting around inside buildings? The second Sinestro starts looking inside any of them to find him, he's close enough for Barry to pull him into the speed force. Why is that an issue you might ask? Well, stop me if you've heard this one from the last time I had Barry against a Yellow Lantern, but Barry chooses what he brings into the Speed Force, as shown here:

Gallery

This is the primary reason why I wasn't so put off on arguing New-52 Barry. While New-52 Barry does not have the breadth of showings that pre-52 Barry had (such as outrunning death and operative attosecond reaction time), the speed force dumping tool is MASSIVELY more useful in his new-52 incarnation. Pre-52, you had to grab your target and physically drag them into the speed force to dump them in it, but Barry needs only to think it and he tears anything he chooses away from reality into his own personal playground. It's an absolutely broken ability, and there's more to it.

Notice how Grodd is the only thing brought into the speed force, despite Barry being surrounded by other gorillas who are closer to him, or the spear hurtling towards his head, or even the shackles he's bound by -- this indicates that not only can Barry, at will, suck anything around him into the speed force, he can pick and choose! And I say Barry, using his speed mind, could figure out that choosing sinestro, but leaving his Yellow Lantern ring behind, would be the best course of action. What's the speed mind, you ask?

Gallery

Barry is capable at thinking at speeds at unheard of magnitudes, and through it he can navigate millions of scenarios to find the one course of action that can lead to victory. The only downside is it DOES require him to have information on the situation, but I think you'll agree that Barry is quite aware of how Lanterns work -- Hal is his best friend, after all. He understands that separating Sinestro from his ring makes him a sitting duck who is powerless and easy to destroy, and the Speed Force gives him that option.

And, before you mention that yes, he was sleeping in that scene I posted, Barry is quite capable of using the speed mind while awake:

Gallery

Sinestro can stay up in the air all he wants. Good luck catching a guy who's effectively got precognition before your ring runs out. Barry's energy comes from an infinite source, so he hardly has that issue. The femtosecond Sinestro even comes into Speed Force range, he's dead. Stripped of his ring, all his major feats (of which I see very few) become null.

And you know what else? Chances are, depending on starting distance, Barry could just blitz him and speed force dump him before he even gets off the ground. Slower people than Barry have blitzed Sinestro and stronger Lanterns before they could react, I hardly see The Fastest Man Alive struggling to pull it off.

I've got more where that came from, I just figure I'd give you a shot at responding before I unload Barry's entire New-52 showing load on the thread, lol.

damm i like ur style lol. that may be true but sinestro is no weakling or is he an idiot to let someone by the likes of flash to get to him.

Turning a member of the Sinestro Corps into a regular corpse)

(Repairing an entire bridge whilst simultaneously saving everyone)

now granted the flash speed indurance and all his feats. Sinestro can role with him granted, flash mite actually know about sinestro but he dosent know how cunning and under handed sinestro really is i mean he will use inocents of others to get the advantage, all sinestro has to do is find someone some flash cares about and use it against him and considering how flash is like superman in some ways. flash wud fall for it being the hero he is, he wud give up for the inocents of the individual and then once that happens sinestro will kill him with a blast or toss im into the sun.

i mean look how versatile he is i mean flash is a beast no question about it. but howevever if u look up top sinestro has parallax hal jordan, i dnt recall anybody ever getting up tht close to get to parallax except superman one million. or ppl like that. i think sinestro has whatever it takes to win. And the whole running out of power bc of wasting energy blasting while flying, wont happen sinestro is the one lantern who knows all the secrets about the rings that all the other lanterns and not even the guardians themselves know about. He can make himself go invisible as well hows flash gonna find him then, sinestro as well as other yellow lanterns can open up warmwholes and blackholes. So sinestro can go invisible open up a warmwhole or blackwhole and lead flash into it. and dont say he wudnt fall for it bc mirror master and other ppl with similar demension blackwholes abilities has gotten flash to where they want him to be so iknow sinestro can as well.

@oceanmaster21:

damm i like ur style lol. that may be true but sinestro is no weakling or is he an idiot to let someone by the likes of flash to get to him.

Thank you for the compliment.

On the matter of allowing Flash to get to him, my point wasn't that Sinestro would be stupid. It's that he would either have to blast wide areas (which you did not bring up as an option, if you did I have the scans to counter it) or go looking for him in the city. The other option is that Flash blitzes him before he can take to the sky -- which I think is very reasonable, as Flash is bloodlusted and can use the speed mind to determine that he needs to blitz and take out Sinestro before he can get in the air.

now granted the flash speed indurance and all his feats. Sinestro can role with him granted, flash mite actually know about sinestro but he dosent know how cunning and under handed sinestro really is i mean he will use inocents of others to get the advantage, all sinestro has to do is find someone some flash cares about and use it against him and considering how flash is like superman in some ways. flash wud fall for it being the hero he is, he wud give up for the inocents of the individual and then once that happens sinestro will kill him with a blast or toss im into the sun.

Ah, but Barry is bloodlusted. He doesn't care about the innocents -- that's why I explicitly stated him running around the buildings for cover until he can catch Sinestro. There's absolutely no way to use the innocents against someone who does't have morals. Based on that, your premise of killing him while he stands there because of the threatening of innocents is null. The second Sinestro tries to do that, Barry would sacrifice the innocent to win the fight with a Speed Force dump and ring separation, or even just atomize him with phasing.

i mean look how versatile he is i mean flash is a beast no question about it. but howevever if u look up top sinestro has parallax hal jordan, i dnt recall anybody ever getting up tht close to get to parallax except superman one million. or ppl like that. i think sinestro has whatever it takes to win. And the whole running out of power bc of wasting energy blasting while flying, wont happen sinestro is the one lantern who knows all the secrets about the rings that all the other lanterns and not even the guardians themselves know about. He can make himself go invisible as well hows flash gonna find him then, sinestro as well as other yellow lanterns can open up warmwholes and blackholes. So sinestro can go invisible open up a warmwhole or blackwhole and lead flash into it. and dont say he wudnt fall for it bc mirror master and other ppl with similar demension blackwholes abilities has gotten flash to where they want him to be so iknow sinestro can as well.

Couple of things -- I don't believe Sinestro actually, you know, beat Parallax Hal. He had him in a headlock and was trying to reason with the Hal Jordan side to get him to stop. Sinestro is more consistently defeated and beaten by Hal DESPITE the fact that he has an equally powerful weapon that exploits the natural Green Lantern weakness. I'd ration Sinestro and Hal generally as equals, but Hal can't even keep up with Barry himself -- what chance does Sinestro have?

Knowing the secrets about the rings doesn't counter the fact that their rings do run out of power and Barry knows this. Flash can see invisible beings with his enhanced senses. Glider's main power is she is an invisible, spectre like being, and Barry is the only person in the audience who can see her:

Also, I don't think you posted the right scan. I just see Sinestro holding a bunch of GL rings...which he doesn't have, as this is Yellow Lantern Sinestro. Can you show me Sinestro even using his other abilities while invisible? The goal is to kill Barry, not to not be killed by him. Many characters who have invisibility powers (such as Glider here) lose their invisibility when they activate their other powers.

Proof that Sinestro can open up a black hole? I don't see that in any of your scans. Speaking of your scans, the vast majority of them are irrelevant or would spell defeat against Barry if he tried these tactics. I will go through them one by one. I apologize for responding inside the quote box, I usually detest this but since I'm ONLY responding to scans with no arguments attached, it shouldn't be so bad. All text here is mine:

Building a bridge is useless against Barry in a fight. Irrelevant feat.

Well can I post if there's only two people? IDK how this works.

• Technically Sinestro IS faster than Barry.

1. This is only nNew 52 Barry and I don't think that fast as compared as Pre-52, since he doesn't have much feats to rely on.
2. Here's where the logic come in......."Gaurdians Of The Universe". These four simple words already proved that he's faster than New 52 Barry, no feats incuded, just logic. Just to get out of out Solar System you would have to be traveling the speed of light which would take a couple of light years while Sinestro does this in moments, which means he already travels faster than the speed of light. Now as a Lantern you have to patrol the Universe, and you would have to be SEVRAL times faster than light(not sure how much but I do have some sort of idea). Sincestro does this in moments, if he didn't that would mean he's immortal which he isn't(as in doesn't age)
3. Now that we've covered how fast he is time to talk about his reaction speed. Meteors and Meteorites are only a few yards away from each other, am I right? Now to be going SEVRAL times faster than the speed of light, your going to have some pretty fast reaction time to be able to dodge them. Now we all know if you put Flash to run 100 yards to would be dumb fast. Now wouldn't Flash punches be like those meteorites, something that is capable of being dodged?

Now does their blast and stuff travel at light speed also? If all of them are coming at Flash that would still be kind of hard to dodge. Now Wally on the other hand has done that before so don't get him mixed up.

So now, logically speaking ofcourse, this speed thing is basically out of the window if I'm wrong....

@wardemon32 Travel speed is not combat speed. If it was then Barry couldn't run rings around Superman like he did, nor could he avoid the Omega Beam when Superman couldn't despite Superman's blitzing of Hal and FTL travel time. Hal does all the same things Sinestro does, but still outright states Barry is faster than he or Superman. I brought this up in this very thread.

This also isn't your debate. This is a tournament style match between two debaters, and at the end of the debate others vote on who they believe argued their point and presented their characters better. What you're doing is coming into a chess match and telling one of the players how you think they should move their pieces to win.

tht last scan i posted was a mistake i was trying to get the blackhole scan but it got that one instead. and i wasnt trying to say he beat parallax but the fact he was able to hold him down considering nobody else could. Green Lantern: New Guardians» Green Lantern: New Guardians #8 - Arkillo's Might sinestro did the blackwhole in that issue tho. and since this is bloodlust sinestro cud just go to outer space and throw the earth into the sun which takes care of flash

now sinestro can make constructs of anything he wants so who says he cant make, a hardlike construct of proffesor zoom or another flash to throw him of guard and then once hes distracted throw flash to the sun. but like u said its bloodlust so flash isnt playing, around that being said sinestro will literatly go to outer space and toss the earth into the sun which automatically, will take care of flash.

@wardemon32: hello how u made some good ponts i didnt know the gurdians made tht staement, but this is a tournament but after me and dredeuced decide to stop debating plz feel free to vote, if u want next time u can join the nxt tournament. and debate ur own chachaters as well.

@oceanmaster21 said:

tht last scan i posted was a mistake i was trying to get the blackhole scan but it got that one instead. and i wasnt trying to say he beat parallax but the fact he was able to hold him down considering nobody else could. Green Lantern: New Guardians» Green Lantern: New Guardians #8 - Arkillo's Might sinestro did the blackwhole in that issue tho. and since this is bloodlust sinestro cud just go to outer space and throw the earth into the sun which takes care of flash

now sinestro can make constructs of anything he wants so who says he cant make, a hardlike construct of proffesor zoom or another flash to throw him of guard and then once hes distracted throw flash to the sun. but like u said its bloodlust so flash isnt playing, around that being said sinestro will literatly go to outer space and toss the earth into the sun which automatically, will take care of flash.

I just read New Guardians #8 - Arkillo's Might and Sinestro doesn't even make a real appearance, they just say he betrayed his corps. If you need me to show the voters every scan of the issue, I can, or you can just give me the page numbers you think that feat is on and I can post that it isn't there. There's no black hole feat. Nor has Sinestro, from what I've seen, ever thrown a planet into the Sun. Hal Jordan has failed to move the Earth without help from the Justice League multiple times, what makes you think Sinestro can do it? The scan you posted here doesn't show anything, either. You haven't really given an appropriate response to Barry being able to blitz and dump him, either.

I'd be willing to go to voting unless you want to actually post the feats to back up your claims or change your strategy.

no no let the voting commence i cant argue against the flash anymore, hes to fast of an opponet to argure fairly against, heck i even vote for u i did terrible this round u win this i even admit u stompped me here but there will be other matches and i will be back. lol let voting start

Dredeuced. Sinestro is clearly outclassed in a bloodlusted battle.

Dredeuced

Dereduced won I think. Oceanmaster you could have probably expanded on the bridge, instead of letting him say that it wont save the day. Or the feat of him taking on the entire Sinestro Corps.

Yeah, tough to argue against Flash here.

Tsk tsk. I good argument could be made for Sinestro.

But I still think Dredeuced wins here definitely.

Flash would still beat sinestro anyways.

Well, that was 5 quick votes. @clark_el I believe this round is over.

@dredeuced: Congrats man you're in the final four like me! At least you got to the voting part of the tourney. None of my opponents even last that long. They always bow out before it's over.

@lvenger: My Flash knowledge is beyond reproach!

What are the other heroes left in the tournament? I know you've got Superman, I don't know the other two.

Please tell me it isn't a Lantern, lol.

@dredeuced: Well not only that you're using a New 52 version who only has 1 and half years worth of feats yet you've already beaten two yellow lanterns. Impressive. Yes I do have Superman but I don't know who else is in the tourney. I've just asked clark-el who else is in the final four but there were only 2 rounds of debating after the initial rounds. Your match and mine. Still I'm sure clark-el knows who else is in the tourney.

Well he's had a lot of crossovers. Been tossing in feats from JL Dark, JL, the whole H'el on Earth thing -- I actually haven't even needed to use any of his appearance from Captain Atom's bit because no one's even tried to use "AOE attack" like they usually do, lol. They gave him a seriously amazing tool when it comes to battles in the greatly improved speed force dump.

What feat does he have in his Captain Atom appearance aside from the plucking bullets out of thin air thing? And he has been in rather a lot of crossovers which is good for you. I'm still trying to think of a counter to your speed force dump tactic should we meet at the next stage or the final.

When Atom blows everything to hell and back Barry not only escapes the AoE, he has enough time to save two battallion's worth of soldiers from the blast -- Captain Atom even realizes it'll be okay specifically because of how fast Barry is. The idea was if either Sinestro or Arkillo tried to take Barry out with AoE, i've got a clear feat of him dodging a huge blast with plenty of time to spare, but neither oceamnaster or clark_el tried to use it so lol.

Speed Force dump wouldn't be the end all be all tactic vs Superman because, unlike Lanterns, he can't be depowered through its usage. I'd have to default to one of my other tactics for Superman with a little combination of feats.

Wow. He really does have better combat speed than the New 52 Superman. But I'm surprised that Superman already has a FTL travel speed fight whereas Barry only has a possible light speed travel feat. Quite strange that the fastest man alive is behind Superman in terms of travel speed in the New 52.

I think that's mostly to do with how they rebooted it. In New-52, Barry's series starts with him not even knowing how to use most of his powers -- he makes mistakes with phasing, he couldn't use his Speed Mind until Elias showed him how, he spent like 6 issues unable to use his full power, he only just recently came up with speed force dumping etc etc, while New-52 Superman (especially with Lobdell's amazingly wanky run) started with literally everyone in the world talking about how he's the most powerful being on Earth and his whole character arc is already set.

Superman's also actively in a bunch of series. Every JL title, His own, Superboy's and Supergirl's. There's no Flash family like there is a Superman family for Barry to get the development, and they've basically made him the most unimportant member of the Justice League.

It is a shame Barry lacks a Flash family to branch out into. Jay Garrick is on Earth 2, Bart Allen is only going to meet Barry in a few months and Wally is nowhere to be seen unless he turns out to be the new Reverse Flash :/ Even with 5 years and some poor runs by Superman writers, the New 52 Superman is still branded the most powerful being on the planet with a good grasp on his powers. But perhaps as time goes on, Barry will become more adept with the Speed Force. I think DC want to avoid doing what they did with Wally and create an unstoppable force that is difficult to write challenges for.

And yet they still got Lobdell writing Superman. lol

Wally isn't coming back. Didio's basically flipped off the fanbase and told them to shove Wally up their collective rears because he wants Barry to be the only Flash. Manapul even begged Didio to try to let him include Wally in the story and he outright said he wouldn't let it happen. The new Reverse Flash is gonna be Dr. Elias, who's both a dumb, boring character and has a stupid design (despite my love of Manapul's art the new reverse flash looks horrid).

@dredeuced: Oh by the way I think I know who the other 2 are. Ageofultronprime2000 and Thundergodswrath. Those are the other 2 people in this tourney I think. Their debate is here
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/clark-el-s-powerhouse-tournamentthundergodswrathvs-1451431/

@dredeuced: Shouldn't Speed Force dropping count as BFR rendering most of your argument kinda... illegal? Meh, even if it was, Oceanmaster didn't capitalize, so you won the CAV.

Oceanmaster really should have shown Barry being out thought in terms of combat along with Sinestro's general combat operation cleverness.

@theindiedudes: why did you bump a match that had been voted on and ended over a year ago?

It wasn't a CaV match, this was a tourney (distinct difference).

This is a lie. Not sure why you bumped a year old thread to pretend that people with a lantern ring are as fast in combat as a speedster, but there's never been ambiguity about who's a faster fighter between Hal and Barry, and the same would apply to Sinestro.

You can't WIN via BFR, you can still use teleporting an enemy to do other things. I never said Flash beats his opponents via BFR, he just used the speed force dump to disarm them. If Sinestro had thrown Barry into space where he then suffocated, he'd still win because Barry suffocated, not because he was BFR'd.

Good luck out thinking the guy who literally has the ability to think through an infinite number of battle scenarios in an instant.

@wardemon32: but wally would lose against barry