Civil War: Fetts vs. Lunacyde

An epic battle is about to erupt in the wintery hollows of the rural North. Cold winter winds sweep across pains of ice and snow.

Luna's Doom Raiders

Leader:Master Chief (Sans Energy Shielding) - Battle Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Twin M6D Magnum Pistols, Frag Grenades

Infiltrator:Snake-Eyes - Morning Light (Katana), Uzi SmG, Colt .45 Pistol, Kabar, Grenades, Semtex, Throwing knives

Tank/Detection:Wolverine - Claws, Muramasa Blade

Utility:Count Vertigo - Twin Sig P226, Claymores

Wildcard:Agent Helix - M-4 Assault Rifle, Twin 10mm H&K Auto Pistols, Kabar, Grenades, Semtex

All team has Bluetooth Communication

vs.

Fett's Nerds

Deathstroke - Staff, ACR Grenadier w/ ACOG scope, Katana, Dual Desert Eagles, SPAS-12, Flash and Frag Grenades

Boba Fett -

Jango Fett -

Storm Shadow - Katana, Shurikens, Combat Knife

Data - Phaser Rile, Phaser Pistol

Setting:

Fetts feel free to post remaining gear for your characters, and I'll modify the OP ASAP.

@Lunacyde: how many grenades come with the acr Grenadier

How durable is MC's armor without his shields? I'm sure it's pretty durable, but I honestly can't think of a time he ever got tagged without shields.

is the spas semi auto or pump action

@laflux said:

@Lunacyde: how many grenades come with the acr Grenadier

Honestly Idk.

@Rot said:

How durable is MC's armor without his shields? I'm sure it's pretty durable, but I honestly can't think of a time he ever got tagged without shields.

If I am correct the shields were added mostly to deal with plasma/energy weapons. Not having them should not greatly compromise the integrity of the armor against physical attacks.

Master Chief's MJOLNIR armor is made of titanium and has a second fluid layer that helps absorb impacts. It should take something like armor piercing rounds in a reasonably high caliber to deal any lasting damage.

@DedmanWalkin said:

Master Chief's MJOLNIR armor is made of titanium and has a second fluid layer that helps absorb impacts. It should take something like armor piercing rounds in a reasonably high caliber to deal any lasting damage.

Correct.

@Fetts: Ok

Opening Argument

I believe that my single greatest advantage is Count Vertigo. Although he certainly could not come close to soloing the situation his Vertigo Effect is a key component in overcoming the range advantage I see in your team. My team is beastly in close quarters, but doesn't pack the power at range that you do. This can be overcome with Vertigo's help. His powers will make your team unable to aim and disorient them, leaving them much more open to attack. His powers have been shown capable of not only disorienting humans, but effecting numerous electronics as well meaning that no one on your team is immune.

From there Master Chief will work uphill and establish a point to snipe from. Snake-Eyes and Helix will make their way along the fence, using it for cover. At designated points they will plant their explosives. They will try to flank your team as they struggle against the Vertigo Effect. Wolverine will head straight into the fray.

Unable to aim or balance your team members are at a great disadvantage. Snake-Eyes can beat Storm Shadow if both are at the top of their abilities, with Storm Shadow under the Vertigo Effect he stands no chance. Master Chief will acquire Boba and then Jango as targets. One shot from a Spartan Sniper should take each of them down, as it uses armor-piercing rounds. Helix should be able to put Deathstroke down without even getting in close, but if she has to her mental abilities should let her hang with him on his best day.

Wolverine should ravage Data, especially with the Muramasa Blade.

@Fetts: Ok

Opening Argument

I believe that my single greatest advantage is Count Vertigo. Although he certainly could not come close to soloing the situation his Vertigo Effect is a key component in overcoming the range advantage I see in your team. My team is beastly in close quarters, but doesn't pack the power at range that you do. This can be overcome with Vertigo's help. His powers will make your team unable to aim and disorient them, leaving them much more open to attack. His powers have been shown capable of not only disorienting humans, but effecting numerous electronics as well meaning that no one on your team is immune.

From there Master Chief will work uphill and establish a point to snipe from. Snake-Eyes and Helix will make their way along the fence, using it for cover. At designated points they will plant their explosives. They will try to flank your team as they struggle against the Vertigo Effect. Wolverine will head straight into the fray.

Unable to aim or balance your team members are at a great disadvantage. Snake-Eyes can beat Storm Shadow if both are at the top of their abilities, with Storm Shadow under the Vertigo Effect he stands no chance. Master Chief will acquire Boba and then Jango as targets. One shot from a Spartan Sniper should take each of them down, as it uses armor-piercing rounds. Helix should be able to put Deathstroke down without even getting in close, but if she has to her mental abilities should let her hang with him on his best day.

Wolverine should ravage Data, especially with the Muramasa Blade.

bump

Secondly, I'm not entirely convinced the Vertigo Effect would have an effect on Data. Yes Vertigo Effect has effected small things like security cameras and detection systems. But Data is A LOT more advanced than that.

Any particular evidence that Data shouldn't be effected by it? other than the basic argument that he's from the future and advanced? Living things and electronics alike are effected by Vertigo's powers. Even beings as powerful as Superman have been effected. Unless you have specific evidence to suggest the effect wouldn't work on him I think we would have to assume it does, as it has been shown to effect anyone who hasn't had specific training to counter it's effect, as well as fairly advanced comic book electronics. In short Data is just a really sophisticated computer, and despite being advanced should react to the basic vertigo effect in the way any other electronic device has been shown to.

I agree that Snake-Eyes would win against Storm Shadow, as he's done so on numerous occasions. But Storm Shadow should at least hold out against him until he gets help from another teammate.

I agree, if he isn't effected by Vertigo, which he would be.

Armor piercing rounds? That's not going to do jack squat to Boba and Jango. Boba's armor has survived missiles, bombs, blaster bolts, etc. And Jango has the same type of armor. Not to mention Boba obtained lightsaber resistant armor.

Those aren't the same kind of trauma an armor piercing round would make. These rounds blow through concrete walls and solid steel. Assuming their armor could take a direct blow from an armor piercing round without it harming the armor the impact would still break bones or knock out the guy wearing it. Star Wars armor is made for energy weapons and explosives, not projectiles. Assuming there still was no damage, there have to be weak points a marksman like master chief could exploit. If that also were unsuccessful Cheif could at least destroy their jet packs and force them into a close quarters fight.

@Fetts:

First of all, could you give scans of how far the Vertigo effect reaches? Because I believe the starting distance is 100 meters yes? Which leaves Count Vertigo open to getting sniped by Boba. But again, I don't know how Vertigo Effect can reach.

*sigh* 
 
I got company at the moment so I'll have to respond later.

@laflux said:

is the spas semi auto or pump action

Pump.

Secondly, I'm not entirely convinced the Vertigo Effect would have an effect on Data. Yes Vertigo Effect has effected small things like security cameras and detection systems. But Data is A LOT more advanced than that.

Any particular evidence that Data shouldn't be effected by it? other than the basic argument that he's from the future and advanced? Living things and electronics alike are effected by Vertigo's powers. Even beings as powerful as Superman have been effected. Unless you have specific evidence to suggest the effect wouldn't work on him I think we would have to assume it does, as it has been shown to effect anyone who hasn't had specific training to counter it's effect, as well as fairly advanced comic book electronics. In short Data is just a really sophisticated computer, and despite being advanced should react to the basic vertigo effect in the way any other electronic device has been shown to.

I agree that Snake-Eyes would win against Storm Shadow, as he's done so on numerous occasions. But Storm Shadow should at least hold out against him until he gets help from another teammate.

I agree, if he isn't effected by Vertigo, which he would be.

Armor piercing rounds? That's not going to do jack squat to Boba and Jango. Boba's armor has survived missiles, bombs, blaster bolts, etc. And Jango has the same type of armor. Not to mention Boba obtained lightsaber resistant armor.

Those aren't the same kind of trauma an armor piercing round would make. These rounds blow through concrete walls and solid steel. Assuming their armor could take a direct blow from an armor piercing round without it harming the armor the impact would still break bones or knock out the guy wearing it. Star Wars armor is made for energy weapons and explosives, not projectiles. Assuming there still was no damage, there have to be weak points a marksman like master chief could exploit. If that also were unsuccessful Cheif could at least destroy their jet packs and force them into a close quarters fight.

@Fetts said:

@Lunacyde said:

Secondly, I'm not entirely convinced the Vertigo Effect would have an effect on Data. Yes Vertigo Effect has effected small things like security cameras and detection systems. But Data is A LOT more advanced than that.

Any particular evidence that Data shouldn't be effected by it? other than the basic argument that he's from the future and advanced? Living things and electronics alike are effected by Vertigo's powers. Even beings as powerful as Superman have been effected. Unless you have specific evidence to suggest the effect wouldn't work on him I think we would have to assume it does, as it has been shown to effect anyone who hasn't had specific training to counter it's effect, as well as fairly advanced comic book electronics. In short Data is just a really sophisticated computer, and despite being advanced should react to the basic vertigo effect in the way any other electronic device has been shown to.

Ok. Very well. But Data has been disoriented before and still seemed to be very intelligent. There was one episode in which I forget the name of, where Data was on a planet and....something happened which made him loose his memory and became very disoriented. It was a while ago since I've seen that episode so I kind of forget how he came to be disoriented. But anywho, Data became really disoriented in one episode. So disoriented that he didn't even know he was an android. But yet, he was still intelligent enough to find a cure to radioactivity in a very unadvanced civilization. So Data is quite capable, even while disoriented.

But that doesn't really matter seeing how I don't see any proof of the Vertigo Effect reaching a distance of 100 meters. Meaning Count Vertigo can easily get blasted to kingdom come or have his head sniped off. Unless you have scans to show that the Vertigo Effect reaches 100 meters. Because I don't see that in the scan you provided.


@Lunacyde said:

I agree that Snake-Eyes would win against Storm Shadow, as he's done so on numerous occasions. But Storm Shadow should at least hold out against him until he gets help from another teammate.

I agree, if he isn't effected by Vertigo, which he would be.

How would he be in which my plan the Count is already out for the count (heh. See what I did there? ..........)

@Lunacyde said:

Armor piercing rounds? That's not going to do jack squat to Boba and Jango. Boba's armor has survived missiles, bombs, blaster bolts, etc. And Jango has the same type of armor. Not to mention Boba obtained lightsaber resistant armor.

Those aren't the same kind of trauma an armor piercing round would make. These rounds blow through concrete walls and solid steel. Assuming their armor could take a direct blow from an armor piercing round without it harming the armor the impact would still break bones or knock out the guy wearing it. Star Wars armor is made for energy weapons and explosives, not projectiles. Assuming there still was no damage, there have to be weak points a marksman like master chief could exploit. If that also were unsuccessful Cheif could at least destroy their jet packs and force them into a close quarters fight.

You're going to have to give me a video or something on this sniper because I have a hard time believing armor piercing rounds would be more effective on their armor than a direct hit from a missile.

Yes, Star Wars armor is made for energy weapons and explosives. That doesn't necessarily mean Star Wars armor couldn't take the impact of a projectile. But this is assuming Master Chief would ever get the chance to go uphill to get his sniping point. This is also assuming if Vertigo Effect can go as far as 100 meters. If Vertigo Effect can't reach that far. Your team is dead. Either via rain of explosions and then getting finished off or via sonic grenade and getting finished off.

#1. I'm not saying it would effect his intelligence, I'm saying it would effect his motor skills, particularly aim. By disorientation I mean intense dizziness and lack of balance.

I also thought I posted this scan before. It shows him effecting an entire battlefield, which is clearly larger than 100 meters.

#2. How would you take him out immediately when he instantly would put your team under his effect when the battle began. As good of a shot as your team members may be it will take them longer to aim and shoot him than for him to initiate the effect, which would be instantaneous and since he doesn't have to aim it would take him no time at all.

#3. It's documented by various sources. Current U.S. Military sniper Rifles with .50 cal armor piercing rounds are used to take out engine blocks in armored trucks, helicopters, and tanks.

The highest recorded punches from Olympic Boxers and Elite Martial Artists have hardly ever broken 1,000 psi, with the highest I've found at 1,066 psi. At approximately 100 meters the 50 cal armor piercing round has about 65x as much force (65,000 psi). If they are shot in the head it doesn't matter how durable their armor is that much torque will knock them out, snap their neck, and possibly remove their whole head.

Furthermore that scan doesn't depict the missile striking Boba. Yes, he survived the blast, but the explosion was equally distributed over the armor, not stressing any one particular area. That way the armor could shield and protect against something it is designed to protect against. However a .50 Cal round to the head will impart all of it's force upon the head. The bullet may not penetrate the helmet, but the force alone imparted on his neck will once again be too much for him to have a chance of surviving.

We know his effect can reach over 100 meters. What would stop Master Chief from reaching a suitable sniping position?

@Fetts:

Tiring is right.

The Horse is dead, PUT DOWN THE WHIP

Vertigo cannot solo your team. How exactly does he take them down. A dizzy spell doesn't KO of kill anyone. He has been beaten and by many characters within the rules that were allowed. Just because you lack the ingenuity to form such an attack doesn't make him a dues ex machina.

Your team is of good characters but fairly one dimensional. Most of your team members fill the same role leaving a lack of a lot of the versatility the the rules allowed. A common theme in many of the teams on your side . Most of those on our team were looking forward to this because is did allow such more versatility than most of these things do, the chance for some truly creative debates.

I had picked Longshot originally. Luna allowed but Gerald called into question (at least I was told he did, he never actually questioned me) because he was a "reality warper". I stated clearly that IMO he wasn't because he could only bend probability and there was a price if he did so too much. A price that once cost him the life of a very dear love because his good luck gave her bad. I switched him out on request. Owie was allowed Domino who's down side of luck is NO WHERE near the problem it is for Longshot. You don't see me crying about it.

@Fetts:

Tiring is right.

The Horse is dead, PUT DOWN THE WHIP

Vertigo cannot solo your team. How exactly does he take them down. A dizzy spell doesn't KO of kill anyone. He has been beaten and by many characters within the rules that were allowed. Just because you lack the ingenuity to form such an attack doesn't make him a dues ex machina.

Your team is of good characters but fairly one dimensional. Most of your team members fill the same role leaving a lack of a lot of the versatility the the rules allowed. A common theme in many of the teams on your side . Most of those on our team were looking forward to this because is did allow such more versatility than most of these things do, the chance for some truly creative debates.

I had picked Longshot originally. Luna allowed but Gerald called into question (at least I was told he did, he never actually questioned me) because he was a "reality warper". I stated clearly that IMO he wasn't because he could only bend probability and there was a price if he did so too much. A price that once cost him the life of a very dear love because his good luck gave her bad. I switched him out on request. Owie was allowed Domino who's down side of luck is NO WHERE near the problem it is for Longshot. You don't see me crying about it.

Team Texas! We might not be the best team pickers, but we stay classy to the end.

Ok with some help with some outside sources such as this website 
www.writeups.org/fiche.php?id=5287 
I think I might have a better understanding of Vertigo Effect and how to work around it. So I apologize Luna if I overreacted and acted like a dick.
 
A couple of things. Before, I was imagining that Vertigo Effect would cause my team to be physically weak and would not able to mentally comprehend Vertigo Effect leaving them also mentally weakened. Kind of like a sonic grenade. But it doesn't. It would be pretty much just cause my team not to have good aim. But my team is full of explosives. So although they wouldn't be as direct as my team members might like them to be, they'll still effect your team. Your team members would be disoriented, KO'd, or even dead.  
 
Another thing. It says in the link that I've posted above that Vertigo is sonic in basis. Both Boba and Data have immunity to sonic devices. So it's debatable that Data would be effected by it. But Boba still has immunity to it because of his helmet. Leaving Count Vertigo open to getting sniped still. So my previous plan would still work. A rain of explosions would disorient, KO, and kill your team members. And after my team is out of explosives, the close range combat experts would finish them off.

@Fetts said:

@Lunacyde: Wow.... So pretty much Count Vertigo has the ability to solo my top pier team? Just like Gypsie. In fact, I think I would of had a better chance with Gypsie on your team. i realize I said illusionists was cheap and I requested that you replace Gypsie with somebody else. But the reason why people hated illusionists is because they instantly disorient entire teams. And that's exactly what Count Vertigo can do as you've shown. What stops Count Vertigo from simply walking towards my team while using Vertigo Effect and disintegrating them all with Boba's blaster? Count Vertigo doesn't even need the rest of your team. This isn't one of those cases where "it's because your team is filled with noobs and my guy is skilled enough to solo." My team is a pretty top pier team. DS: Bitchslaps the Teen Titans and JLA every Tuesday Fetts: Badasses with arguably the best weaponry comics has pretty much ever known and skills that can own Jedi, Data: extremely durable, intelligent, strong, speedy, and knows more H2H combat techniques than anybody else SS: The second best ninja comics has ever known (next to Snake-Eyes) It's because Count Vertigo is too damn overpowered and I most likely would of said "No Vertigo is even cheaper" had I known more about him. Call me a sore looser if you wish but when you have a person on your team that can pretty much solo a top pier team like mine it's pretty cheap. But it's not like it matters that much because this tourney pretty much fell apart when people started using cheapshots. And it's sad too because this tourney had so much potential. It was a great idea of yours but cheapshots like that you should of deemed illegal like you said you would in the OP.

The simple fact is that Count Vertigo A.) Cannot solo your entire team. B.) Is completely within the rules. C.) Is EASILY countered and taken care of if you know how to exploit his weaknesses. D.) Was open to anyone who cared to use them on their team.

I don't mean to be an ass, but don't complain to me because you weren't creative enough in your character selection, or good enough to formulate a plan to deal with such a character. You don't just think of who is the most skilled or powerful when making a team. You think of contingencies and uses. Can my team deal with this threat or that threat?

Yes, he is a powerful tool with many helpful uses, but he can be defeated extremely easily if you know how, and he cannot single-handedly defeat your team. Even highly disoriented I wouldn't want to put him in an up close fight against anyone on your team. His hand to hand is well below anyone on your team, as well as his durability, and he doesn't have any weapons powerful enough to take down many of your team members. I'm assuming a battle-hardened Bounty Hunter like Boba, or other bad ass characters on your team wouldn't just drop their weapons and let Vertigo walk around doing whatever he wants. Just because they are disoriented doesn't mean they are completely incapacitated. The truth is that yes he is the key to my victory, but alone he wouldn't be very effective at all. You need the skill and power to capitalize on the disorientation as well. I built my team around such a character, so without it my entire battle plan would have been different.

@Fetts said:

@Lunacyde: Relax. I thought Count Vertigo was more powerful than he actually was. You would find that if you continued reading after that post. And I already posted how my team would work around that. 1. Vertigo Effect is sonic in basis. Both Boba and Data are immune to sonic devices and would probably be immune to sonic powers. Meaning Vertigo can still be sniped.2. Even if my team can't aim straight, they still have buttloads of explosives. So while the explosives might not be as direct as my team members would like, they'll still be able to effect your team. As I've already said, I'm sorry if I appeared to overreact.

1. What is the nature of Boba's immunity? Is it due to his helmet? If so his helmet's HUD, targeting system and electronics should still be able to be effected by Vertigo. Just because the effect is sonic in nature does not mean that it behaves like any normal sonic device. Normal sonic devices wouldn't be able to effect missile guidance systems, cameras, detection systems, etc. Vertigo has shown the ability to effect all of these kinds of devices. Therefore the electronic functions of Boba's helmet would be useless.

2. Sure they could use explosives, but they are a danger to their own team just as much as my team chucking explosives around in such a state.

@beatboks1 said:

I had picked Longshot originally. Luna allowed but Gerald called into question (at least I was told he did, he never actually questioned me) because he was a "reality warper". I stated clearly that IMO he wasn't because he could only bend probability and there was a price if he did so too much. A price that once cost him the life of a very dear love because his good luck gave her bad. I switched him out on request. Owie was allowed Domino who's down side of luck is NO WHERE near the problem it is for Longshot. You don't see me crying about it.

Just FYI, I had multiple characters of my own nixed for a variety of reasons. Some of these were not any more powerful than others on my or your side's teams, so it was kind of disappointing to see that I didn't get them after seeing the characters some other people got. But whatever. Also, just to point out, I'm hardly using Domino to solo or affect the balance of my battle more than any other character, I was hardly trying to bend the rules. (Not that the debate has gone very far since Phylos apparently dropped out.) Anyway from my point of view, you probably should have gotten to use Longshot.

@Owie: In the future I may just get everyone together and we all brainstorm the rules so no one can complain.

@Fetts said:

@Lunacyde: Relax. I thought Count Vertigo was more powerful than he actually was. You would find that if you continued reading after that post. And I already posted how my team would work around that. 1. Vertigo Effect is sonic in basis. Both Boba and Data are immune to sonic devices and would probably be immune to sonic powers. Meaning Vertigo can still be sniped.2. Even if my team can't aim straight, they still have buttloads of explosives. So while the explosives might not be as direct as my team members would like, they'll still be able to effect your team. As I've already said, I'm sorry if I appeared to overreact.

1. What is the nature of Boba's immunity? Is it due to his helmet? If so his helmet's HUD, targeting system and electronics should still be able to be effected by Vertigo. Just because the effect is sonic in nature does not mean that it behaves like any normal sonic device. Normal sonic devices wouldn't be able to effect missile guidance systems, cameras, detection systems, etc. Vertigo has shown the ability to effect all of these kinds of devices. Therefore the electronic functions of Boba's helmet would be useless.

2. Sure they could use explosives, but they are a danger to their own team just as much as my team chucking explosives around in such a state.

bumb

@Lunacyde said:

@Owie: In the future I may just get everyone together and we all brainstorm the rules so no one can complain.

Oh I totally understand how it all came out. It's very hard to be air-tight in making rules about anything, and just as hard to judge whether a bunch of obscure characters fit the rules. I don't know half the characters in this, especially the video game ones, which in my mind are super hard to judge in relation to the others.

The one rule I was thinking was something like, no character can be able to solo the other team (I'm not mentioning this in relation to Vertigo, this was something I was thinking about before). But that's a hard rule, because it depends on how good the other team is--if they're weak, then any good character could beat them. So then you have to add qualifiers like, not solo a reasonably good team." Well what does "reasonable" mean? Etc. And so it quickly becomes as complicated as the tax code!

@Fetts: The very simplest way I can explain it is that normal sonic devices do not effect electronics the way that the Vertigo Effect does, so I don't believe you can compare the two.