Peak human is a very slippery slope to get out on, you know this. Captain America is supposedly 'just' peak human, so is Batman, yet we have seen both commplish feats far beyond anything human is physically capable of. Laura on the other hand is decidedly superhuman, her mutation allows her to keep moving long after 'just human' characters would have given in (she produces much fewer fatigue poisons than they do). Add to this her upbringing and training means you have to shoot her a heck of a lot before she stops moving, she feels pain obviously, she just ignores it. Besides how strong Chris is, is rather irrelevant save for how much he isn't being slowed down by the arsenal he is carrying around.
Your putting Larua above Cap and Batman in physicals? I don't think there is really any way your argument can hold up here, because this shows kind of an over-hype of X-23. She simply does not have feats to put her physically equal to Batman or Cap, besides a healing factor which is a whole different thing altogether. The rest of the argument is kind of pointless, if you are assuming that X-23 is physically superior to characters like this.
@tparks: Please highlight where I said Laura was physically above Cap and Bats in the strength department, because thats really the only place they are above her.
@tparks: Please highlight where I said Laura was physically above Cap and Bats in the strength department, because thats really the only place they are above her.
You referred to Laura as a superhuman in physicals, when all she has is a healing factor. Cap and Batman are faster, stronger, have better reaction times, and better skill. There is no question about that.
You referred to Laura as a superhuman in physicals, when all she has is a healing factor. Cap and Batman are faster, stronger, have better reaction times, and better skill. There is no question about that.
Stronger, sure. Faster? Ha, no, both of them carry around 50 pounds of armor that slows them both down, neither do they have huge skill advantages over her.
@outside_85: Those 50 pounds of armor never slow them down. And yes, the do have huge skill advantages. Laura just doesn't have the feats Cap or Batman does. She can fight with characters like this, but that's because of her healing factor, but her physicals and skill are just not at these levels. Not saying that they aren't still impressive, but she is not among the very elite.
@tparks: 50 pounds doesn't slow them? funny but no, weight is weight. And yet, even if that was true, it wouldn't matter since she's still going to be more than a hundred seatings above the guy she is facing here.
@tparks: 50 pounds doesn't slow them? funny but no, weight is weight. And yet, even if that was true, it wouldn't matter since she's still going to be more than a hundred seatings above the guy she is facing here.
Weight is weight, but feats are feats. Show a feat of them being slowed down by their armor. I guarantee you will never find one.
Anyway, I'm leaning on Laura taking a good majority, but Chris is going to at least give her a fight. I don't see him getting absolutely fodderized by Laura like some say, but I think she takes him anyway.
Speaking of Chris Vs threads, I have some ideas as well..
Doesn't that go both ways? Resident Evil has a story to tell too, but that doesn't interfere with Wesker's basic powerset. Wolverine has been around for forty years, if he's moved at invisible speeds twice every 10 years than that's eight examples of being on Wesker's level, and I'd be surprised if you could even find that many. And I don't mean to go all thegrayghost on you and rant about consistency, but my point is, invisible speeds is not Wolverine's average. Blurring and after-image speeds for sure, he dodges bullets after all, but the speed Wesker possesses is a different level. The fact of the matter is, any instance of Wolverine almost teleporting with his sheer speed is clearly an outlier, because it's not part of his regular ability set, it's not something he does regularly. Think of it this way: When Wolverine does it, it's a big deal. When Wesker does it, it's not. Your Flash example doesn't work because even though Flash isn't invisible in every comic panel, the writers still go out of their way to show that he is using super speed. From what I've seen, it's mostly by slowing the world around him down. By comparison, Wolverine is usually more-or-less visible to the human eye.
There's also the fact that the context is different; every scan I've read of Wolverine showing invisible speeds was him disappearing from sight by hiding, then getting the drop on the enemy. Of course he'd need to be fast enough that they didn't notice him moving, but it's been stated that this is a ninjitsu technique Logan was taught for stealth, emphasis on technique. Wesker on the other hand does it through pure speed, he goes from one place to the other, without hiding, almost instantly, hence teleporting.
I'm not even saying that Wesker can beat Wolverine, just that he's a tiny bit faster.
What is your basis for wolverine being visible to the human eye? Because people aren't saying "where'd he go?!?!" every time he moves? We really don't know what it looks like when wolverine fights. An example of what I am talking about is when black panther fought iron fist Christopher Priest did write in the script of that fight that iron fist and black panther were moving faster than human eyes can follow but this was never shown on panel. We know they were though because the script says this. The writer doesn't always state in text boxes how fast a character is moving because their are other things going on and artists don't draw wolverine vanishing every time because we need to see what wolverine is doing on panel. Cutscenes are different because we see them actually moving whereas in a comic its all still.
Its not always technique, the nightcrawler instance was achieved by standing still in wolverines case. Wolverine has dodged bullets multiple times faster than the shooter can see. He's fought sabretooth faster than eyes can track. He's avoided nukes bullets faster than he can see. he's had sword fights faster than the eye can follow. He also has equivalent feats like blitzing same hand ninja who knew "who fought wars between one breath and the next" so fast she didn't even know she was dead.
I'm not arguing who wins either or even that wolverine is faster. I am just saying wolverine moving faster than regular peoples eyes can see is pretty normal.
@tparks: Because neither of them go into the creation of their suits or talk about the flaws in them.
And despite the fact they wear heavy armor there feats are still better. Unless you can prove X-23 has better feats.
Look it up: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/batman-battle-of-the-month-voting-batman-vs-x-23-1536004/
But in this case it matters dick if she's above, about equal or just under either, because Chris has no ability to speak of when it comes to close quarter fighting.
But in this case it matters dick if she's above, about equal or just under either, because Chris has no ability to speak of when it comes to close quarter fighting.
But in this case it matters dick if she's above, about equal or just under either, because Chris has no ability to speak of when it comes to close quarter fighting.
Why the low-balling?
It's not low-balling. So far I haven't seen a single shown case or anyone who thinks Chris will survive if he gets within striking range of Laura. And let me remind you again that he is a character of a game where the basic survival strategy is to shoot everything that moves before it reaches you and pulls your arms out of their sockets.
Chris can win. But I see Laura winning more. Not really a spite match. Chris has shown to be stronger and I can see him winning with flashbangs+high caliber ammo. Chris isn't exactly slow but X-23 is faster and more agile.
But still, I wouldn't dis chris two much. Especially with all the stuff he dodges.
In Resident evil 6 he tanked a massive flurry of punches from a a de powered hulk like B.O.W. And he got squired and almost crushed by a A GIANT B.O.W but he survived the squeeze. More than any other human being could have. And Chris's combat style is up with Leon's. And Chris also punched Zombies,J'avos,B.O.W 's at a far distance. One shooting them in the process. Falcon punch style. Chris's Strength advantage here is big.
Chris Redfield is an official 15 tonner in the Resident evil franchise with Superhuman durability. Steroids did great things to him. And he's got a full arsenal to use a against X-23 here. I believe that he stands a chance here. I'm not saying that he wins. I'm simply saying that this is no mismatch,Stomp or slaughter in favor of X-23. Chris will put up a fight. And who knows...give me the controller and I stomp.
@dygoboy: Is this more cutscene feats or is it actually stuff he can do while you play him? Btw, dont congratulate him too early on pushing a rock around, depending on it's shape, the hardness of the surface and he has to push it up or down a slope makes a huge difference.
In Resident evil 6 he tanked a massive flurry of punches from a a de powered hulk like B.O.W. And he got squired and almost crushed by a A GIANT B.O.W but he survived the squeeze. More than any other human being could have. And Chris's combat style is up with Leon's. And Chris also punched Zombies,J'avos,B.O.W 's at a far distance. One shooting them in the process. Falcon punch style. Chris's Strength advantage here is big.
Chris Redfield is an official 15 tonner in the Resident evil franchise with Superhuman durability. Steroids did great things to him. And he's got a full arsenal to use a against X-23 here. I believe that he stands a chance here. I'm not saying that he wins. I'm simply saying that this is no mismatch,Stomp or slaughter in favor of X-23. Chris will put up a fight. And who knows...give me the controller and I stomp.
@armiv2: LOL!!!!! Maybe.....but srlsly he isn't. It was a joke. He might be,but Resident has pushed Chris to boundaries in which a human being couldn't even get to. . Pushing a giant boulder at that size is at least 10 tons. The fact that he pushed it puts him at least from 3-5 ton range.
@Outside_85: More cutscene feats. In Resident Evil 6 after his men were infected by a fake Ada Wong they instantly turned into these Juggernaut behemoths, then one of them attacked Chris and was beating him up like a ragdol. But Chris tanked the punches and Survived. And those B.O.W 's can lift cars. Cars weight 12 tons. Yeah...that's why I believe Chris has a super human durability for a guy who only got buff because of steroids.
To be perfectly honest, Nick curbstomped most of the arguments put infront of him in this thread in relation to the battle itself. I saw multiple strawman arguments, appeals to ignorance and people in general using preconceived notions to back their arguments for X-23 opposed to actually countering Nick's argument. Hell, he provided speed feats for cannon fodder that I would consider impressive for a comic "peak human" character, and not only were those feats left un-countered, but the fact Chris treats beings of that speed-level like cannon fodder was left un-countered.
I think there is a legitimate problem with people on Comic Vine assuming Comic characters > video characters, or in general characters from mediums with less emphasis on a "well established history".
Often times popular comic characters are simply name dropped next to someone like, say, Wolverine, and they're instantly put on some kind of pedestal. But when you actually evaluate their feats, how they performed against Wolverine, it may not be as impressive as you first thought. Moreover, things like battle-tactics are often overlooked, as well as feats of skill that aren't necessarily applied to an "established character", because people have a hard time believing an indie character can beat Wolverine unless they've been name dropped alongside some established being. It's nonsense, to be honest.
Ninjak is an indie character. Is he swimming in feats? No. Has he fought anyone with decades worth of feats to draw from? No.
Has he attacked every single nerve point on the human body, demonstrated single-strike death blows, and has constructed strategies on the fly that would make Captain America take a seat? Yes, he has. He doesn't need an "established history" or a quick exchange with Daredevil from 1992 to be recognized as a skilled, top tier character.
Another thing people need to start doing is actually considering feats that aren't necessarily common, but still impressive. What I mean by this is, you don't need to be a bullet dodger, or cut someone's gun in half "before they can react" to be considered fast. There are many ways to portray speed that are overlooked, amongst other traits.
Nick showed a good example where Chris, while suffering from Amnesia, and recovering from the impact of an RPG, was able to think clearly enough to catch his friend by the wrist and swing him onto a nearby balcony. Strength, recovery time, situational awareness. All traits that can be brought into an encounter with X-23 where Chris would need a clear head to come up with a plan to deal with her advance.
Let's take another example, one I will use whenever I'm in a Boba Fett debate.
Below, Boba Fett has a cage full of wild animals dropped on him. While the cage is just above his head, he jetpacks out of the way fast enough not to be hit. Not only does he escape, but he moves so fast that nobody in the immediate area saw him fly out of the way. Boba moved so fast out of the way, in fact, that he ended up hovering behind the cage-dropper faster than he could realize. He thought Boba was under the cage, dead - Boba had flown out of the way and behind him.
Gallery
I used to write off feats like this when I saw them in a comic, because Boba wasn't performing the common, run-of-the-mill speed feats that people glorify on this board. But despite how complicated and uncommon the feat is, when evaluating exactly what happened, it's actually very impressive - enough to put Boba's speed on-par with someone .. like X-23.
What I'm trying to say is, people need to get out of the habit of seeing an unfamiliar character and immediately hopping on notions like
"he's from a video game, his feats are just gameplay mechanics"
"they're an indie character so their opponents must be featless"
"he isn't superhuman by title so he can't be comparable to Wolverine"
When you don't know what a character is packing, the first thing you should say is "feats for _____". Don't assume that they can't provide a challenge just because Batman is an established character, or whatever.
Give someone, like Nick, the chance to present the character's feats, and then go about comparing them to X-23's side-by-side. Sticking to your preconceived notions like everyone is going to back you up in the absence of an argument shouldn't be a viable strategy, but unfortunately it's what happens.
When you don't know what a character is packing, the first thing you should say is "feats for _____". Don't assume that they can't provide a challenge just because Batman is an established character, or whatever.
Still waiting for valid feats to prove Chris is anything other than a worse-off Punisher.
@tparks: Because neither of them go into the creation of their suits or talk about the flaws in them.
And despite the fact they wear heavy armor there feats are still better. Unless you can prove X-23 has better feats.
Look it up: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/batman-battle-of-the-month-voting-batman-vs-x-23-1536004/
But in this case it matters dick if she's above, about equal or just under either, because Chris has no ability to speak of when it comes to close quarter fighting.
Is there a specific post you want me to look at? I'm not going to say she is faster just because the majority said she'd beat batman.
I think this is a interesting matchup, and pointing out that Chris has survived against the likes of Wesker is impressive. But the flip side is that that's the point of the game. I kinda have the feeling that if I could play through a Resident Evil as X-23 the game would be over in an hour, and it wouldn't take six meetings with Wesker before I'd take him out.
The problem with arguing for or against Chris is his WILDLY inconsistent portrayal. One second its being argued that he's a fifteen tonner "in his universe." Well he's a fifteen tonner or he's not, regardless of universe. Spiderman is a 25 tonner, give-or take, whether we're talking Marvel, D.C. or wherever else. Then all of the sudden he's 2-3 ton minimum. Wait WHAT!?!?! Chris Redfield, walks around on-the-daily, packing the same punch as a venomed up Bane? Bueller...Bueller...Bueller... But, in his own universe, if he can't find the right key to fit the lock he can't get through the door? When has Bane ever been stopped by the lock on a rickety door?
And that's an important point because someone's going to say "well thats just a gameplay mechanic" well yeah, but on the flip side, so is beating Wesker. The cinema scenes make NO sense, they just muddle up, and exist completely separate from, the realm of the gameplay. They portray the characters as being well into the superhero realm, which completely undermines the entire fabric of their universe. If Chris can tank blows from hulked-out, 20 tonner B.O.W.'s, toss around ten ton boulders, react to Leon Kennedy, who people like to point out is quick enough to go H2H with Wesker, then why are we even talking about his arsenal? That guy doesn't need a friggin gun to take out X-23, that guy just turned into Luke Cage!
So, are we debating that special-ops, military trained guy who needs half a baretta mag's worth of bullets to keep a walker from eating his face off? Or are we debating that superhero guy who shows up in the cut scenes, and would have no problem going toe-to-toe with the likes of anyone from Luther Strode to Luke Cage? Someone clear that up for me, because they are two separate characters, more irreconcilable than Yaweh and Jesus.
The problem with arguing for or against Chris is his WILDLY inconsistent portrayal. One second its being argued that he's a fifteen tonner "in his universe." Well he's a fifteen tonner or he's not, regardless of universe. Spiderman is a 25 tonner, give-or take, whether we're talking Marvel, D.C. or wherever else. Then all of the sudden he's 2-3 ton minimum. Wait WHAT!?!?! Chris Redfield, walks around on-the-daily, packing the same punch as a venomed up Bane? Bueller...Bueller...Bueller... But, in his own universe, if he can't find the right key to fit the lock he can't get through the door? When has Bane ever been stopped by the lock on a rickety door?
And that's an important point because someone's going to say "well thats just a gameplay mechanic" well yeah, but on the flip side, so is beating Wesker. The cinema scenes make NO sense, they just muddle up, and exist completely separate from, the realm of the gameplay. They portray the characters as being well into the superhero realm, which completely undermines the entire fabric of their universe. If Chris can tank blows from hulked-out, 20 tonner B.O.W.'s, toss around ten ton boulders, react to Leon Kennedy, who people like to point out is quick enough to go H2H with Wesker, then why are we even talking about his arsenal? That guy doesn't need a friggin gun to take out X-23, that guy just turned into Luke Cage!
So, are we debating the special-ops, military trained trained guy who needs half a baretta mag's worth of bullets to keep a walker from eating his face off? Or are we debating the superhero guy that shows up in the cut scenes, who would have no problem going toe-to-toe with the likes of anyone from Luther Strode to Luke Cage? Someone clear that up for me, because they are two separate characters, more irrevocable than Yaweh and Jesus.
Chris isn't a 15 tonner. He pushed a round boulder into lava. Yes the boulder would be estimated at 20 tons or so but it doesn't take anywhere near that level of strength to push something that big especially since its a round object.
@jashro44: I know, I've played through the entire series, and that part cracked me up! I literally LOL'd. But that is one of his most cited feats of strength, and one which is used to argue that he is beyond peak human strength. So how far? Looks like a 3 ton feat to me, which means Cut-Scene Chris can lift around 6 thousand pounds. WOW! Wish I got to play as that guy! Combine that with his abilities to tank blows from 20 ton B.O.W's, the often insane, beyond bullet-timing feats Claire, Leon, Wesker, Jill and everyone else in the R.E franchise seems to be capable of (Barry too, I'm sure) and pretty much all the boundaries used to establish their universe have been undermined.
Comics are often inconsistent, with characters having both high and low showings. But R.E... man, you've got to try really hard to make those cut scenes look beyond cool, to achieve these kinds of breakdown in any and all logic. Chris Redfield. The man can move a fifteen ton boulder, but needs the right key to get through the rickety door in a farmhouse...
Look, I love R.E. and have played all of the main titles in the series. Its the reason I went out and bought my original P.S.. But trying to apply ANY logic to the series "feats" is cheap, since whomever is debating gets to use the same ludicrous make-it-up-as-you-go-along logic as the series developers. Hence the reason Chris is anywhere from typical special-ops, to peak human, to 3 tonner, to 15 tonner, to tanking blows that would kill anything remotely human. Just use whichever version you'd like, as you make whatever point you need to, to win an argument.
Whenever someone uses Chris in a battle they should make it clear whether we're talking about Gameplay-Chris (which is how most people think of him, and why early on so many people said X-23 in a stomp) or Cut-Scene-Chris, which is how some hardcore fans of the series LIKE to think of him, ignoring all of the inconsistencies.
@outside_85: I find snatching their guns so fast that they clearly don't realize there guns are gone to be more impressive than just stabbing people before they shoot you. All though I am going to drop this since its off topic.
I don't think Chris is as fast as cap or batman. I just find the reasoning X-23 is faster than cap and batman because they have armor which weighs them down to be silly. If there performances in the armor still show cap and batman as faster than X-23....Than there faster. This is really all I was trying to say. You can't make the argument because they wear armor their slower than X-23. You need to show this through feats.
@cooljammy18: Thanks bro, appreciate it. I've actually been hoping @k4tzm4n would pop a R.E. character into a battle of the week some time, just so I could point out a few of these things.
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