#1 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2443 posts) - - Show Bio

Strafe will be debating for Hawkeye. 
I will be debating for Nightcrawler. 
 
Random encounter. No prep for either side. 
Hawkeye is current. Nightcrawler is 616, and the most recent version before his tragic demise. 
Hawkeye has a bow with 15 regular arrows, 3 explosive arrows, 2 sonic arrows, 1 net arrows, and 1 grapple arrow, and two pairs of nunchaku  
Nightcrawler is unarmed. 
Both are fighting in character (which also means that morals are on), but both are also determined to win. 
Win by death, KO, or incapacitation. No BFR. 
Cars are still on the street, but there are no civilians in the area. 
Hawkeye starts at point A. 
Nightcrawler starts at point B. 

#2 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2443 posts) - - Show Bio

Tell me if you think the OP is sufficiently balanced.

#3 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@(((Prodigy))): Sounds good to me. Would you like to make the first post?

#4 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2443 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower: Go on ahead :)

#5 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@(((Prodigy))): It will be a while. I got to head out for a few.

#6 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightcrawler.

#7 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

To be honest, this is an extremely close match-up that Clint won't win every time. I do think he can take the majority though as long as he takes the strategic route on the battlefield.

The one thing that will keep Clint on his toes is Nightcrawler's teleportation. We have seen Nightcrawler speed blitz enemies often and It would be plausible for a first move. Clint will have to immediately go on the offensive in this match, which is in character for him to do. Luckily, Clint's hearing and smell have both been shown to be exceedingly high for a human. Add that with his peak human reaction timing and he could potentially keep decent track of Nightcrawler.

Note: He comments that it was because he could smell them on the next page.

Note 2: Those goons weren't in the room previously and were trying to get the drop on Clint

The other thing that Clint is going to have to do is be wise with his arrows. He doesn't have that many to work with, so he has to make them count. Not that it's hard for him to do so, but against Nightcrawler it will be crucial. The correct combination of a sonic arrow and a explosive arrow, and Nightcrawler could take some serious damage. He has shown to do this with agile enemies before, such as Batroc, so I don't think it is hard to believe that he could do so here.

Another note is that I think Clint is a bit more tactically minded than Nightcrawler, so out thinking him isn't out of the question here.

#8 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@(((Prodigy))): I forgot to do this and tell you I replied.

#9 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2443 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower:  
Kurt and Clint haven't worked together very much, but I think it's safe to assume that Kurt knows Clint well enough to know that he is an absolute top tier marksman. Due to the sort of skill set that comes along with that, Kurt will know better than to try to go total stealth-mode. He knows his teleportation is always accompanied by a miniature thunderclap and a stench of brimstone. He'd be pretty easy to track by somebody who knows how to use his ears. For this reason, Kurt is likely to go on the offensive too. When your opponent specializes as a sniper, the best option is to not linger around. Nightcrawler isn't a renowned expert strategist or anything, but even I know that.
 

Clint will have to immediately go on the offensive in this match, which is in character for him to do. Luckily, Clint's hearing and smell have both been shown to be exceedingly high for a human. Add that with his peak human reaction timing and he could potentially keep decent track of Nightcrawler.  


 
Sharp senses and impeccable reaction time would be a big help if Nightcrawler was being evasive, but they will help him only so much in an all-out fight. 
 
Wolverine (or, at the time, Death) has superior senses and reaction time to Hawkeye, and even he wasn't able to keep up with a quick teleport flurry.  
 

The correct combination of a sonic arrow and a explosive arrow, and Nightcrawler could take some serious damage.  


 
The main problem for Hawkeye is that it's difficult to make every shot count when you opponent can go from 50 yards away to right behind you in the blink of an eye. 
 
Rogue says that Nightcrawler just teleported 800 miles inside of a minute. Unless Nightcrawler has somehow been able to extend his maximum distance to more than three miles (which shouldn't be possible since his range is limited by the earth's magnetic field), then that means he has learned to be able to teleport as much as 4-5 times per second. This can also be observed in the numerous times he has decked three or four enemies in a single panel (I don't think I need to post all those scans too, since they're so common). 
Simply put, I really don't think Hawkeye has what it takes to keep up with Nightcrawler and tag him in a pitched fight. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

He has shown to do this with agile enemies before, such as Batroc, so I don't think it is hard to believe that he could do so here.  


 
Funny you should mention Batroc...  
 
Batroc, whose agility is slightly inferior to Nightcrawler's, proves capable of dodging at least half a dozen arrows at rather close range with no cover to use, while on ice. Then he very nearly KO's Hawkeye with one good hit. 
In all honesty, I have to admit it is an unusually low showing for Hawkeye to go down that fast, but it goes to show that arrows aren't too hard to dodge for someone of exceptional agility, even if they're being fired by an expert marksman.
   

Another note is that I think Clint is a bit more tactically minded than Nightcrawler, so out thinking him isn't out of the question here.


 
 
That's a fair point. He is more tactically minded. He's been a worthy leader of both the Avengers and the Thunderbolts at different times, so that shouldn't be counted for nothing. 
However, in this setting, I don't really see how tactical-mindedness would be of much use. The battlefield isn't especially large or varied in terrain, both of them have rather straightforward abilities and are aware of each other's abilities... 
I really just don't see what kind of strategic advantage Hawkeye could have in this particular setting.
#10 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@(((Prodigy))): Sorry I haven't replied to this yet, I've been working on the wiki. I'll get to this tomorrow night.

#11 Posted by Bane_of_sith (2780 posts) - - Show Bio

Excellent points prodigy! I agree

#12 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@(((Prodigy))): That's very true, but if Nightcrawler just rushes in without taking a minute or 2 to get a strategic plan, it could mean bad things for Kurt. I have no doubt that Nightcrawler will play the evasive tactic, but Clint is exceptionally talented at timing his shots. He has made impossible shots via timing and could do the same here.

Being able to throw up a deck of cards and still have time to grab his bow and arrow, aim for the 3 of hearts (It was significant to the story), and hit it before the card hit the ground

He predicted where the sun would be to place a ray in the right spot to open this door. He did it with a shot of an arrow without any trouble.

Here, his enemy knows that Clint's arrow would hit him before he even pulls the trigger.

The difference between the Wolverine fight and now is that Clint is also quite good a predicting what his opponent will do. Add that to his senses and tactical thinking, and I think that he would fare well against Nightcrawler for a bit in an up close fight. Not to mention that his acrobatics are also quite amazing as well. He is used to shooting while in mid-air and trains for such an occasion as this.

I agree that Clint would have a hard time keeping up with him beased on reaction timing alone. That's why I think after the first few punches Nightcrawler throws, he can start to predict his hits and counter. He has the strategic mind to do so and the reaction timing as well, IMO.

Funny you should mention Batroc, That is the exact opposite of what happened the first time they fought, and Batroc had help. For some reason, every time I try to add scans in sections, it adds it as one big blob of them and I can move them down my post. I'll add all the other scans I'm talking about in a seperate post.

Honestly, with Clint being at such a disadvantage, as he has been before, being tactical can make a break a fight. It did with the Thunderbolts.

#13 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@(((Prodigy))): Here are the rest of the scans.

#14 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2443 posts) - - Show Bio
@Strafe Prower:  

That's very true, but if Nightcrawler just rushes in without taking a minute or 2 to get a strategic plan, it could mean bad things for Kurt 


 
The setting in this fight is very limited. I'm not sure what kind of strategy Nightcrawler could come up with that would increase his chances. He can be virtually everywhere on the battlefield at once,  and his opponent is the kind of guy who only gets more dangerous the longer you draw out the fight.  
 

but Clint is exceptionally talented at timing his shots. He has made impossible shots via timing and could do the same here.  


 
That is all completely true, but Nightcrawler doesn't exactly have a bad sense of timing either.  
 
In the first scan, he positions himself between two opponents, gives them a second to train their weapons on him, and then disappears at the very second that one of them fires. 
In the second scan, he waits for the 'click' of the gun and teleports away before the bullets leaves the barrel.
 
You don't have to try to convince me that Hawkeye is a near-flawless marksman. I'm a big fan of his already, and all the scans you posted I already have saved in my 'Hawkeye' folder. 
However, I've already used my own scans to prove that Nightcrawler has good enough timing to 'dodge' energy weapons and bullets from literally point blank range, that he's developed his power to the point that he can teleport four or five times in a single second, and that Hawkeye's arrows can and have been dodged by people of human-level agility. 
If Hawkeye can tag Nightcrawler, it's probably all over. However, there's a lot going against Hawkeye on whether or not he can tag him at all. 
 

The difference between the Wolverine fight and now is that Clint is also quite good a predicting what his opponent will do. Add that to his senses and tactical thinking, and I think that he would fare well against Nightcrawler for a bit in an up close fight. 


 
I don't really see how you can say that while downplaying the Wolverine fight. Wolverine is faster, more agile, and more durable than Hawkeye. He has superior senses, vastly superior training and showings in hand-to-hand combat, and had the intention of killing him. Plus, everyone likes to argue, "Well, Cyclops once said that Nightcrawler is predictable when he teleports." Due to Wolverine's unusually-long lifetime of combat training and the fact that he and Kurt have been pretty much BFFs almost since they joined the team, it stands to reason that if there's ONE person in the world who should be capable of predicting Nightcrawler's actions, it's Wolverine. And he didn't exactly do so well in that area.  
 

That's why I think after the first few punches Nightcrawler throws, he can start to predict his hits and counter.   


 
Well, that's assuming Clint has enough of a damage soak to tank a few good punches from Nightcrawler without getting woozy. I've already posted a scan that showed 'Death' Wolverine going down to his knees after Nightcrawler decked him a few times.  
These additional scans show that he can... 
1) Break three cement blocks with one hit 
2) Support a full-grown man's weight with his outstretched arm, with no apparent strain 
3) Put a beat-down on a monster-sized troll 
4) One-shot Frog Man 
5) Break a Sentinel's skull with a metal pipe 
6) Literally throw enemies around like ragdolls 
7) Kick Scalphunter straight through a window
 

Funny you should mention Batroc, That is the exact opposite of what happened the first time they fought, and Batroc had help. 


 
Batroc hardly even did anything in that fight. He kicked Hawkeye once, hung back for a while, tried to kick him one more time (but was dodged), hung back again and let his 'help' get taken out, got sucker-punched by a glue-arrow he really should have seen coming, and then mysteriously forgot how to use his fists to fight. 
#15 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@(((Prodigy))): It's been a week since I've replied...O.o Sorry about that.

I'll get a reply up tonight, so be prepared ;)

#16 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@(((Prodigy))): This is true, but since they are visible from the beginning, rushing in from the front will be expected and rewarded as such. Also, Clint has no problem with using his trick arrows from his hands, which could catch Nightcrawler by surprise.

Very impressive scans. those are very well timed, but I would think that after the first time that happens, Clint would make up for it by timing his shot differently. Whether that means predicting where Kurt will appear next, or by some other means. Also, his trick arrows are hard to dodge at a constant speed because of the radius. Nightcrawler has to be able to do that multiple times per second to continually dodge Clint's arrows. Not to mention that the opponents in those scans are fodder, while Clint's marksmanship and timing is leagues above them.

  1. In the first 2 scans, he shoots an arrow with one arm, catching the bomb with the arrow and landing his shot perfectly.
  2. He shoots a Helicopter in the exact right spot to take it down with 1 arrow. Note: these arrows have Adamantium shafts.
  3. In the next 2, he shoots arrows in rapid succession, followed by a Bullseye level accuracy and timing feat with the stapler.
  4. In the last 3, he uses his environment to take down goons who were running though him, showing he can use the environment well on the run.

That also wasn't Wolverine per say, it was Wolverine's body with someone else influencing it. We don't know that the person controlling Wolverine is as tactically sound or had access to those memories that would allow what you describe. Wolverine has the superior senses and speed, but the reaction timing is on equal ground. Also, Wolverine only has claws, while Clint has several ways to hurt Kurt. It's two completely different fights. Not to mention that I think a regular Wolverine would defeat Kurt.

  1. The first is another reaction timing/senses feat. That was in the heat of battle with a big squad of soliders firing all around him.
  2. The next scan is just an example of how fast he is at shooting his arrows rapidly.
  3. The spar with Mockingbird shows that even if he is tagged or thrown physically, he can still shoot accurately and still plan tactics.
  4. In the next 2 scans, He is spinning at rapid speeds and easily land a bullseye then shoot an arrow at Scarlet Witch with extreme accuracy.
  5. In the last 2, it's just an example of him shooting rapid arrows to his strategic advantage.

Clint has taken hits from stronger enemies with more fighting skill, US Agent, and continued fighting for an entire issue. He has also taken bullet wounds and stab wounds from Angel and still managed to keep fighting unhindered. His pain tolerance is greatly underestimated by his opponents, which is why he can get the advantage in some of his fights. Nightcrawler can be more than 1 or 2 tons strength, which will hurt, but not KO Clint for a good few hits. Not to mention that I think Clint is more than capable of dodging.

  1. The first set of 10 scans is Clint's fight with Angel. Note it comments on the speed of his arrows moving under 300ft. in less than a second.
  2. The second set of 10 is his fight with US Agent. Notice the durability Clint shows when he is outclassed in every way.

Batroc's ego is why the trick arrows worked correctly. Clint knew that he was overly confident in his ability to dodge, and used that to his advantage. He has done this several other times, (Thunderbolts, Captain America, Archangel) Clint has used someone's personality and fighting style against them his whole career, and could do so here.

I had to break out some new scans on you ;) I have more as well :D

#17 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2443 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower: Sorry Strafe, but I can't keep this going. I just got an RA position at a new school, and both my free time and internet access are rather limited right now.

Mad props for a great debate though.

#18 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@(((Prodigy))): It's cool man, I expected as much :)

Mad props to you as well! You've improved quite a bit since I last debated you!

#19 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

Awh. Damn.

Oh well, it was nice while it lasted and all that.

#20 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: Maybe we can debate next?

#21 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower said:

@ReVamp: Maybe we can debate next?

Haha. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't take all that well to losing xP.

#22 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: Debating isn't about winning or losing my friend. It's all about the exchange of knowledge IMO.

#23 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower said:

@ReVamp: Debating isn't about winning or losing my friend. It's all about the exchange of knowledge IMO.

Yes, I know. I'm joking, its just that I'm out of scans. My Hardrive broke. I didn't even get my money back.

Plus I'm about 9 months rusty at this point. But we'll see.

#24 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: Ah, I've been there many times.

It's your decision, but I would let any of that stop you.