#1 Edited by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

For those unaware, there was a Hunger Games Tournament awhile back. Sherlock was OP, and as round 2 came along, we found ourselves duking it out.

Computer issues forced me to dropout, but now it's time to finish what we started.

NickZ

Big Boss/Naked Snake

Mk. II Tranquilizer Pistol w/Suppressor

M1911A1 Combat Pistol w/Suppressor

Adamantium CQC Knife

Patriot

SDV Sniper Rifle

MSF Issue Battle Suit Chest Plate

Claymore Mines

C3

IR Goggles

Face Paint Kit

Moss and Tiger Stripe Camouflage Uniforms

Med Kit

AP Sensor

Backpack

Mystique

Dual Deagles

Dragonov Sniper Rifle

Kevlar Nomex Weave body armor

Vibranium Combat Knife

BATTLE GROUND:

Hunger Games. Fighters start 3 miles away in a 5 mile diameter arena.

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#2 Posted by Sherlock (7245 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh this is going to be fun.Time to show you why I'm a senior rankIng weaker corp member

#3 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sherlock said:

Oh this is going to be fun.Time to show you why I'm a senior rankIng weaker corp member

I have no idea what that means, but good luck all the same.

Now, first things first, this may be Naked Snake VS Mystique, but more than that; this is the Hunger Games. And that is where my advantage lies.

You're looking at the U.S. Military's number 1 top agent in the fields of suburban exploration and espionage. This man can survive indefinately in a place like this, in the jungle. He himself would argue that he'd actually prefer to survive in a place like this.

My point is, Snake is an expert survivalist, he can go forever in this place no problem,

Tasty.

So, that said, how long can Mystique hold out? What's to stop Snake from just... waiting? Does Mystique have any survival training or jungle experience that warrants her surviving over a man who's entire life is based on this stuff? Even if Mystique does survive, Big Boss will survive better, and striking while she's weak is always an option.

Part of why Snake is so good at these covert jungle missions is because of his stealth abilities. After getting the sh*t kicked out of him, enduring extensive electroshock torture, and then having his eye shot out, Snake can figure out how to escape his prison cell, and sneak through the Grozny Grad Military Base, with hundreds of armed soldiers patrolling, none of them ever the wiser.

And that was with absolutely no gear (he was literally shirtless) and while pretty much dying. Imagine, in a scenario like this, with full gear, specialized camo, and 100% health, how he will fair.

Now, I'm aware that Snake only has two camo outfits, while Mystique is... Mystique. A shapeshifter. But really, 2 outfits are all he needs.

50 years of his military experience is entirely based around sluething through enemy bases brimming with the most elite unit whatever country he's currently in has to offer. Metal Gear is credited as creating the stealth genre, and Big Boss created Metal Gear. That has to count for something.

So here's my basic strategy: Big Boss settles down in a nice comfy spot, stocks up on food, makes a shelter, all that jazz. He spends a few days on his camping trip, having a good time, etc, and if Mystique ever wanders anywhere near him, he'll be ready.

The AP Sensor is a nifty device that vibrates the closer the enemy gets. Snake feels even the slightest tingle, he'll camo in, grab those Thermal Goggles, and snipe Raven before she knew what hit her. With a Suppressor equipped Pistol. No dodging that.

So before this post gets too long, I'll throw in some closing comments.

-Snake can survive forever, rather comfortably, something Mystique can't

-You'll have better luck finding a grain of rice in the jungle than you will Big Boss

-With Thermal Goggles and AP Sensor, Snake will know Mystique's location the second she gets anywhere near him

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#4 Posted by Sherlock (7245 posts) - - Show Bio
@nickzambuto
I get this horrible feeling you stacked this one against me somewhat.Am i allowed to add gear since i didnt know what i was getting into?Also you never did say this was limited to gear that they have used and i assume its not since Snake has an adamantium knife which wouldnt exist in that world. 

So, that said, how long can Mystique hold out? What's to stop Snake from just... waiting? Does Mystique have any survival training or jungle experience that warrants her surviving over a man who's entire life is based on this stuff? Even if Mystique does survive, Big Boss will survive better, and striking while she's weak is always an option.

Part of why Snake is so good at these covert jungle missions is because of his stealth abilities. After getting the sh*t kicked out of him, enduring extensive electroshock torture, and then having his eye shot out, Snake can figure out how to escape his prison cell, and sneak through the Grozny Grad Military Base, with hundreds of armed soldiers patrolling, none of them ever the wiser. 
 
Mystique doesnt have any shown jungle survival training but does have a healing factor.This will make her much more resilient to hunger,cold,etc.She does have weapons enough to find food if need be and due to her anatomy wont need much in the way of shelter so she wont need to waste time and energy on that. 
  
50 years of his military experience is entirely based around sluething through enemy bases brimming with the most elite unit whatever country he's currently in has to offer. Metal Gear is credited as creating  the stealth genre, and Big Boss created Metal Gear. That has to count for something. 

Mystique is well over 100 years old so experience isnt something she is lacking in 

So here's my basic strategy: Big Boss settles down in a nice comfy spot, stocks up on food, makes a shelter, all that jazz. He spends a few days on his camping trip, having a good time, etc, and if Mystique ever wanders anywhere near him, he'll be ready. 
 
Thats all well and good but hunting and fishing and setting up camp are taxing no matter how you slice it.Whats to stop Mystique from locating him while hes doing all that?How ready can he be while getting fire wood?Its not like he will carry all of his gear with him the entire time.All the bombs he has along with the guns as well as a pack full of stuff cant be light and Snake has no super strength.In this area i prepped better than you did since Mystique is going light. 
Worst case for you is if Mystiques locates Big Boss' hideout while hes working.Now she knows where he is and can mount an attack.If he plans on using a few days to set up then that isnt hard to see happening.The way i see it he may be ready for anything but unless he is sitting in a sniper position the entire time he wont be truly ready 
 
The AP Sensor is a nifty device that vibrates the closer the enemy gets. Snake feels even the slightest tingle, he'll camo in, grab those Thermal Goggles, and snipe Raven before she knew what hit her. With a Suppressor equipped Pistol. No dodging that.
 
I dont see anything that added prep to the list of assets here so that would assume that Big Boss knows nothing about Mystique.Am i correct here? 
If so the AP device wont really help a whole lot since he has never met or heard of Mystique. 
Full analysis: 
Since Snake cant lock on to her personally (Since he has had no contact with her previous) he is going to pick up everything.That will include any animals living around.Like rabbits squirrels deer bears etc.There is a lot of wildlife in forests.A LOT.If it picks up anything nearby then it would be safe to assume that it would pick those up as well. 
Thermal goggles are great and all but they dont have an range that would amount to a lot in an area like this.With the amount of trees around most of her heat signature will be blocked out 
 
My advantages as i see them: 
-Mystique has better anatomy than Snake does making her a lot more efficient.She wont need shelter and wont need to eat as often or as much
 
-Snake is going to be setting up a camp site something Mysitque will not me doing.While this is great for survival it does give Mystique something that is very easy to locate.Snake can use all the camo he wants on himself but a camp site is a camp site and its kinda hard to miss 
 
-Mystique also has the element of disguise here something Snake does not.Snake can hide and avoid being seen,Mystique can change her appearance completely into something out of the ordinary.A deer for example.Why would Snake suspect a deer of evil intent? 
 
The way i see it panning out is Mystique scouts around and locates Big Boss' camp.Again its hard to miss.Once she finds that she knows where he is and knows where hell be.Form there its easy.Snake may get a jitter on his AP doodad but he will be getting those all day.I also looked at the wiki and it said its hard to pin down enemies with it since it doesnt give an accurate reading on where exactly they are.His goggles will help with that somewhat but with the density of the forest the range wont be very good.She will have to be very close for those to be effective. 
All it takes from here is a simple sniper shot to put Snake down
#5 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sherlock said:

@nickzambuto:
I get this horrible feeling you stacked this one against me somewhat.Am i allowed to add gear since i didnt know what i was getting into?Also you never did say this was limited to gear that they have used and i assume its not since Snake has an adamantium knife which wouldnt exist in that world.

Well hold on, first off, if you feel I intentionally stacked this against you I apologize, as I didn't do that intentionally. It's true some of my gear is specialized towards Mystique, but you had the same opportunity to give her any gear you'd like. Going with that, everything I listed truly is a part of Snake's standard gear, AP Sensor and IR Goggles, etc, it's nothing he hasn't used in every single one of his appearances.

Secondly, I only gave Snake the Adamantium Knife since you gave Mystique a Vibranium one. I think it would be best for us both to just use normal knives, as this would be best if we only used gear our guys have used, unless you can provide an instance of Raven using a knife like that.

Go ahead and redo your gear if you like, I don't want you to think I'm playing unfair.

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#6 Posted by Sherlock (7245 posts) - - Show Bio
@nickzambuto: Dont sweat it bro.I put that down before it got going.TBH i could use the challenge.I sometimes forget how mcuh fun debating can be at a disadvantage.I wont need to redo my gear iv got all i  need for this =)
#7 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sherlock said:

@nickzambuto: Dont sweat it bro.I put that down before it got going.TBH i could use the challenge.I sometimes forget how mcuh fun debating can be at a disadvantage.I wont need to redo my gear iv got all i need for this =)

One of my best debates was Master Roshi vs Hyperion... ya know, the guy who beat Thor.

So yeah, I can understand the fun in debating at a disadvantage :P

Rebuttle... ehh, tomorrow.

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#8 Posted by Sherlock (7245 posts) - - Show Bio
@nickzambuto: Sound good to me.Love the avvie BTW
#9 Edited by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll say it's doubtful that Mystique will literally end up starving to death, but besides just surviving, Snake has plenty of other advantages here.

It's true Mystique is a hundred or so years old, so she's got plenty of combat experience, but as you said she has no jungle experience, no survival training or anything like that. Is it to much to say she might just end up getting lost?

Whereas Mystique won't have much trouble getting along with that nifty healing factor, she'll most likely just end up wandering around without a clue. Big Boss on the other hand is a world class tracker, and a gifted hunter. Not one blade of grass, footprint, or fallen leaf, not one snapped twig on the ground or frightened bird escapes his notice.

My point is, no matter how clever or cautious Mystique is, someone with next to zero experience in the jungle is gonna leave a clear trail behind them, one that Big Boss can certainly follow.

Snake has already tested his skills against the Cobra Unit, the elite Black Ops military group who won World War 2. Each member was just as trained and experiened as Snake himself, more so actually, and each had a special ability that catered to their fighting style.

First off was the Fear, a wicked agile and superhumanly flexible... guy.

Of course he's fast enough to run on water, and is equipped with a Stealth Camouflage suit rendering him absolutely invisible.

Snake beat him not only thanks to his expert tracking skills, but also by camouflaging himself and out-sneaking the invisible dude. And that was while suffering from the venom of the Brazillion Wandering Spider, deadliest spider in the world (you can see that in the cutscene above)

And then there's the End, often credited as one of the greatest gaming boss battles of all time.

I don't see the hype, but there's no denying it was a tough fight.

First thing about the End is he's well over 100 years old. He's creditted as being the father of modern sniping, and IIRC has never missed a shot.

He can conduct photosynthesis on himself for infinite stamina and impressive physicals, and can even "talk to the forest".

His body temperature changes to match that of where he's lying, and when it comes to camouflage EVA makes it a point that he's the best.

Again, Snake tracked him down and kicked his ass no probs.

So, with all that in mind, I think it's safe to say Snake can track Mystique and remain hidden at the same time.

Thats all well and good but hunting and fishing and setting up camp are taxing no matter how you slice it.Whats to stop Mystique from locating him while hes doing all that?How ready can he be while getting fire wood?Its not like he will carry all of his gear with him the entire time.All the bombs he has along with the guns as well as a pack full of stuff cant be light and Snake has no super strength.In this area i prepped better than you did since Mystique is going light.

Snake can carry plenty, your argument is invalid.

That said, I'm more than prepared to say Snake's physical strength is nothing to laugh off, and his stamina is certainly peaking meta human levels. Over the course of his years, he's:

  • Utilized a high speed drone while wearing only his field uniform, whereas the MiG pilots chasing him had to wear pressurized suits to survive in their aircraft;
  • Endured a battle against The Fury while the area they were in burned from the flames of the latter's rocket fuel-laced flamethrower;
  • Managed to embark on Operation Snake Eater and successfully complete his mission despite only a week earlier suffering numerous fatal injuries during the Virtuous Mission;
  • Endured electrical torture by Colonel Volgin from what was implied to be at a voltage of around ten million volts
  • Twice survived a large fall into a body of water in Tselinoyarsk;
  • Survived the ICBMG's missile launch despite standing close to ground zero of the ignition blast;
  • Single-handedly lifted a garage door to allow himself entry to Peace Walker's hangar with his own bare hands, twice;
  • Endured electrical torture at the hands of Dr. Strangelove (afterwards he claims he's "used to it" by now);
  • Tanked falling off a mountain while chasing Metal Gear Peace Walker at what was implied to be a very large height, a fall that likewise killed The Boss's horse;
  • Survived serious injuries during the fall of Outer Heaven;
  • Survived after his body suffered severe burns in Zanzibar Land;
  • Endured the effects of the second FOXDIE strain for approximately 15 minutes, before finally passing away. Neither Kenneth Baker nor Donald Anderson survived for more than a few seconds.

We can thank those nifty soldier genes Big Boss has for all this, for more info on soldier genes please contact Naomi Hunter.

You say Snake will get tired carrying all his crap around, but the thing about BB is that, he's was the commander of FOXHOUND. A lower level FOXHOUND initiation exam consists of a 40 mile hike in under 15 hours, while carrying around a 30 kg (67 pound) backpack. Your standard FOXHOUND recruit has to do that just to join, and I seriously doubt your standard member is up to par with Snake... like I said, he was the founder and commander of the unit.

That said, it'd be easier for Snake to just find his campsite first, and dump all the crap he doesn't need there, THEN go and get fire wood, food, etc. So either way you cut it, he won't be struggling.

Worst case for you is if Mystiques locates Big Boss' hideout while hes working.Now she knows where he is and can mount an attack.If he plans on using a few days to set up then that isnt hard to see happening.The way i see it he may be ready for anything but unless he is sitting in a sniper position the entire time he wont be truly ready

The odds of Mystique stumbling upon a little campsite through 5 miles of jungle is very slim. For a person with no survival training, no matter how clever, she'll most likely end up going in circles.

I dont see anything that added prep to the list of assets here so that would assume that Big Boss knows nothing about Mystique.Am i correct here?
If so the AP device wont really help a whole lot since he has never met or heard of Mystique.

I don't see your point? The AP Sensor is just a little phone-sized device that BB keeps in his pocket, which autimatically vibrates when the enemy is near.

-Mystique also has the element of disguise here something Snake does not.Snake can hide and avoid being seen,Mystique can change her appearance completely into something out of the ordinary.A deer for example.Why would Snake suspect a deer of evil intent?

He won't suspect it. He'll just be happy to see tonights dinner.

Snake may get a jitter on his AP doodad but he will be getting those all day.I also looked at the wiki and it said its hard to pin down enemies with it since it doesnt give an accurate reading on where exactly they are.

I think you misread the wiki.

The AP Sensor vibrates when the enemy is near, the wiki said it's innacurate because it doesn't tell you where the enemy is, just that they're present, whereas in past games you had the Soliton Radar, which showed you each enemies location at all times.

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#10 Posted by Sherlock (7245 posts) - - Show Bio
@nickzambuto: Ill take care of this tonight
#11 Posted by Sherlock (7245 posts) - - Show Bio
@nickzambuto said:

@Sherlock

I'll say it's doubtful that Mystique will literally end up starving to death, but besides just surviving, Snake has plenty of other advantages here.

It's true Mystique is a hundred or so years old, so she's got plenty of combat experience, but as you said she has no jungle experience, no survival training or anything like that. Is it to much to say she might just end up getting lost?

Whereas Mystique won't have much trouble getting along with that nifty healing factor, she'll most likely just end up wandering around without a clue. Big Boss on the other hand is a world class tracker, and a gifted hunter. Not one blade of grass, footprint, or fallen leaf, not one snapped twig on the ground or frightened bird escapes his notice.

My point is, no matter how clever or cautious Mystique is, someone with next to zero experience in the jungle is gonna leave a clear trail behind them, one that Big Boss can certainly follow.

Snake has already tested his skills against the Cobra Unit, the elite Black Ops military group who won World War 2. Each member was just as trained and experiened as Snake himself, more so actually, and each had a special ability that catered to their fighting style.

I never said she has no experience.I said i couldnt think of any that comes to mind off hand.TBF here getting lost in a place like that will take some doing.You would have to be a moron. 
 
Im sure it doesnt but you said yourself he wont be tracking.All he would need to do is wait i believe is how you put it.Also clear trails will be hard to find in this case.Need i remind you that Snake doesnt know who hes dealing with and Mystique can easily go tree to tree as well as glide.Not only that but she can change her foot prints to look like whatever she wants.Thats not a lot to go on for anyone. Also to add the pics you showed look like a northwestern forest.Those trees are quite tall so going tree to tree would leave even less of a trail.
 
Again i never once said Zero. 
 

First off was the Fear, a wicked agile and superhumanly flexible... guy.

Of course he's fast enough to run on water, and is equipped with a Stealth Camouflage suit rendering him absolutely invisible.

Snake beat him not only thanks to his expert tracking skills, but also by camouflaging himself and out-sneaking the invisible dude. And that was while suffering from the venom of the Brazillion Wandering Spider, deadliest spider in the world (you can see that in the cutscene above)

And then there's the End, often credited as one of the greatest gaming boss battles of all time

 

 I don't see the hype, but there's no denying it was a tough fight.

First thing about the End is he's well over 100 years old. He's creditted as being the father of modern sniping, and IIRC has never missed a shot.

He can conduct photosynthesis on himself for infinite stamina and impressive physicals, and can even "talk to the forest".

His body temperature changes to match that of where he's lying, and when it comes to camouflage EVA makes it a point that he's the best.

Again, Snake tracked him down and kicked his ass no probs.

So, with all that in mind, I think it's safe to say Snake can track Mystique and remain hidden at the same time.


We went through this in the last one i recall.You gotta remember that this is a game and any game where the boss is unbeatable is a shitty one.With all these advantages going into it neither of these guys should have lost.Another thing to note is that the boss you are fighting will always pop up so you can attack them.Mystique has no such limits 
 

That said, I'm more than prepared to say Snake's physical strength is nothing to laugh off, and his stamina is certainly peaking meta human levels. Over the course of his years, he's:

  • Utilized a high speed drone while wearing only his field uniform, whereas the MiG pilots chasing him had to wear pressurized suits to survive in their aircraft;
  • Endured a battle against The Fury while the area they were in burned from the flames of the latter's rocket fuel-laced flamethrower;
  • Managed to embark on Operation Snake Eater and successfully complete his mission despite only a week earlier suffering numerous fatal injuries during the Virtuous Mission;
  • Endured electrical torture by Colonel Volgin from what was implied to be at a voltage of around ten million volts
  • Twice survived a large fall into a body of water in Tselinoyarsk;
  • Survived the ICBMG's missile launch despite standing close to ground zero of the ignition blast;
  • Single-handedly lifted a garage door to allow himself entry to Peace Walker's hangar with his own bare hands, twice;
  • Endured electrical torture at the hands of Dr. Strangelove (afterwards he claims he's "used to it" by now);
  • Tanked falling off a mountain while chasing Metal Gear Peace Walker at what was implied to be a very large height, a fall that likewise killed The Boss's horse;
  • Survived serious injuries during the fall of Outer Heaven;
  • Survived after his body suffered severe burns in Zanzibar Land;
  • Endured the effects of the second FOXDIE strain for approximately 15 minutes, before finally passing away. Neither Kenneth Baker nor Donald Anderson survived for more than a few seconds.

We can thank those nifty soldier genes Big Boss has for all this, for more info on soldier genes please contact Naomi Hunter.


None of this disproves my point on the matter.Why on earth would he cart it all around at all times?Answer he wont hell drop it off somewhere.Carrying all that crap is idiotic and im sure hes smart enough to know that. 

That said, it'd be easier for Snake to just find his campsite first, and dump all the crap he doesn't need there, THEN go and get fire wood, food, etc. So either way you cut it, he won't be struggling


This is exactly what i was trying to get across.If Mystique find him while hes at work he isnt going to have all his gear on him 
 

The odds of Mystique stumbling upon a little campsite through 5 miles of jungle is very slim. For a person with no survival training, no matter how clever, she'll most likely end up going in circles.


The forest pics you showed look like Northwestern areas to me.Not nearly as bad as a jungle.Give me 2 days and i could scour that area and if theres a shelter there would find it (As long as the boundaries are clear)Mystique can move a lot quicker than me as well as having much better stamina.Scouring the forest wont be hard especially when the land mark shes looking for is so blatant as a shelter. 
 

I don't see your point? The AP Sensor is just a little phone-sized device that BB keeps in his pocket, which autimatically vibrates when the enemy is near.

How would the device know that shes the enemy?Can it lock onto her?Not without prep it can't.That being the case either  
1 it wont work at all or  
2 it will pick up every little thing that gets close enough to you 
Either way the device isnt going to be much help 
 

He won't suspect it. He'll just be happy to see tonights dinner.

LOL fair enough 
 
My usual sum up 
Going through the trees will limit the way Snake can track Mystique 
5 miles isnt all that large an area.the average Human can walk that in about 2 hours.Mystique can travel much faster than that.I still see her finding his camp and staking out till he gets back then shooting him
#12 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sherlock said:

Oh this is going to be fun.Time to show you why I'm a senior rankIng weaker corp member

Oh wait a minute, that's supposed to say WESKER corp, right? I just realized that...

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#13 Edited by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

I never said she has no experience.I said i couldnt think of any that comes to mind off hand.TBF here getting lost in a place like that will take some doing.You would have to be a moron.

Not really. People IRL get lost in forests and jungles, that's the reason guides exist. Intelligence has nothing to do with it, you can be Dr. Doom, unless you were taught how to know your way around a jungle, you'll just end up going in circles.

I mean, come on... you've got some green trees, green grass, green bushes, some dirt... more trees... everything looks the goddamn same.

I never said she has no experience.I said i couldnt think of any that comes to mind off hand.

Unless you can recall an instance of Raven recieving some survival training, or having any suburban experience at all, you can't claim she does. By that logic, I can say that Big Boss can transform into a 500 foot long giant snake that shoots laser beams out it's ears. I don't remember when he did that, but he did. Isn't that why he's called Snake?

So even though I clearly win if we use this logic, for the sake of the debate I'll continue.

Mystique can easily go tree to tree as well as glide.Not only that but she can change her foot prints to look like whatever she wants.

True enough, but what motivation does she have for doing that? Why would the thought of hiding her tracks and going tree to tree even come into her brain? Like you said, we don't know who we're fighting, so the last thing Mystique is gonna think she's up against is a secret agent jungle survivalist.

We went through this in the last one i recall.You gotta remember that this is a game and any game where the boss is unbeatable is a shitty one.With all these advantages going into it neither of these guys should have lost.Another thing to note is that the boss you are fighting will always pop up so you can attack them.Mystique has no such limits

Those are called game mechanics. If you wanna go by those, then by all means Mystique is gonna have a hard enough time getting through Snake's bullet proof skin.

This is exactly what i was trying to get across.If Mystique find him while hes at work he isnt going to have all his gear on him

The odds of Mystique just stumbling upon one man through a thick, 5 mile diameter jungle are pretty low, but if by will of God she does, that's not a problem. This was gonna degenerate into a fight eventually, that was the plan all along.

Now, that said, Snake should still be capable of getting the drop on Mystique in this situation. A little 5 ounce fist sized AP Sensor isn't something he'll leave at the campsite, so the second she gets near he'll still know.

How would the device know that shes the enemy?Can it lock onto her?Not without prep it can't.That being the case either
1 it wont work at all or
2 it will pick up every little thing that gets close enough to you
Either way the device isnt going to be much help

The AP Sensor detects any human life form, it doesn't need to be calibrated or anything, and I know you're gonna bring up the "Mystique is a mutant not human" loophole, but considering Snake has faced dozens of super natural enemies over the years and the AP Sensor has always worked on them, there's no reason to believe it won't work on her either.

So as I was saying, no matter what, this is gonna end in a fight. As I said, Snake should have the element of surprise, if Mystique stumbles anywhere near him, she has no way of knowing he's there, whereas Snake will know that she's there. So from there, it's just a matter of spotting her, and then popping one in the head.

How is he gonna see her? Well, that's where all those tracking skills I mentioned come in. The rustle of a leaf, a snapped twig on the ground, these are all tell tail signs of where the enemy is. If Snake spots one of them, that'll lead him to the mutant.

If Mystique is going by trees, it's still all the same: a fallen leaf is all that's needed to tell where someone is.

Now I'm well aware of how good Mystique is at cloaking herself, her shapeshifting abilities lend to some of the best natural camouflage around. So I'm not saying Snake is gonna make her out through the vast greenness, but all he needs to do is get an idea of where she is. With a Suppressed Pistol, Snake can spend all day letting out pop shots without her realizing, so it's only a matter of time until a bullet tags her, and healing factor or no, blood will surely come pouring out. From there, Snake has an easy target.

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#14 Edited by Sherlock (7245 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Sherlock said:

Oh this is going to be fun.Time to show you why I'm a senior rankIng weaker corp member

Oh wait a minute, that's supposed to say WESKER corp, right? I just realized that...

Yuppers

Not really. People IRL get lost in forests and jungles, that's the reason guides exist. Intelligence has nothing to do with it, you can be Dr. Doom, unless you were taught how to know your way around a jungle, you'll just end up going in circles.

I mean, come on... you've got some green trees, green grass, green bushes, some dirt... more trees... everything looks the goddamn same.

This particular forest is sealed in and is only five miles.Thats not much of a distance at all.People get lost in much bigger forests where you can walk for days(In a strait line) and not find a way out.In this case Mystique can go from one end to the other in a few hours

Iv never noticed it all looking the same personally though i do have experience in forests so my saying so doesnt mean its so for everyone.it just makes me more awesomer

Unless you can recall an instance of Raven recieving some survival training, or having any suburban experience at all, you can't claim she does. By that logic, I can say that Big Boss can transform into a 500 foot long giant snake that shoots laser beams out it's ears. I don't remember when he did that, but he did. Isn't that why he's called Snake?

So even though I clearly win if we use this logic, for the sake of the debate I'll continue.

I can't which is why im not pushing the matter.In this closed off area though i dont think she will need much if any experience in forestry.

BTW suburban is mostly associated with a city type area not a forest.Just to say

True enough, but what motivation does she have for doing that? Why would the thought of hiding her tracks and going tree to tree even come into her brain? Like you said, we don't know who we're fighting, so the last thing Mystique is gonna think she's up against is a secret agent jungle survivalist.

Vantage point and travel speed.No matter who you are against a vantage point is a good idea

Those are called game mechanics. If you wanna go by those, then by all means Mystique is gonna have a hard enough time getting through Snake's bullet proof skin.

Ill give you that for them popping up.My point about Snake having no business beating them still kinda stands.That being said bringing that up is very underhanded now that i think about it so im gonna drop it

The odds of Mystique just stumbling upon one man through a thick, 5 mile diameter jungle are pretty low, but if by will of God she does, that's not a problem. This was gonna degenerate into a fight eventually, that was the plan all along.

Now, that said, Snake should still be capable of getting the drop on Mystique in this situation. A little 5 ounce fist sized AP Sensor isn't something he'll leave at the campsite, so the second she gets near he'll still know.

I read the next part about the AP sensor and that makes a lot more sense.Needless to say i didnt think of that.

The thickness of the jungle is actually going to help Mystique more than Snake.With all that foliage on the ground no matter how good you are you are going to leave a trail and you are going to make noise and you are going to be easy to spot.On the other hand Mystique is in the trees so

1 People dont walk around looking up its just not natural especially when they are marching through thick foliage

2 In the trees there is much less in the way of obstacles making it easier to travel quickly and quietly Ill still give you knocking down leaves and such but Mystique will do a lot less of that than Snake will if hes on the ground

3 Mystique will have a vantage point the entire time.Anyone knows what that will mean

So as I was saying, no matter what, this is gonna end in a fight. As I said, Snake should have the element of surprise, if Mystique stumbles anywhere near him, she has no way of knowing he's there, whereas Snake will know that she's there. So from there, it's just a matter of spotting her, and then popping one in the head.

How is he gonna see her? Well, that's where all those tracking skills I mentioned come in. The rustle of a leaf, a snapped twig on the ground, these are all tell tail signs of where the enemy is. If Snake spots one of them, that'll lead him to the mutant.

If Mystique is going by trees, it's still all the same: a fallen leaf is all that's needed to tell where someone is.

Now I'm well aware of how good Mystique is at cloaking herself, her shapeshifting abilities lend to some of the best natural camouflage around. So I'm not saying Snake is gonna make her out through the vast greenness, but all he needs to do is get an idea of where she is. With a Suppressed Pistol, Snake can spend all day letting out pop shots without her realizing, so it's only a matter of time until a bullet tags her, and healing factor or no, blood will surely come pouring out. From there, Snake has an easy target.

So as I was saying, no matter what, this is gonna end in a fight. As I said, Snake should have the element of surprise, if Mystique stumbles anywhere near him, she has no way of knowing he's there, whereas Snake will know that she's there. So from there, it's just a matter of spotting her, and then popping one in the head.

Spotting her will be the real trick.As you said the AP device wont tell him exactly where she is

How is he gonna see her? Well, that's where all those tracking skills I mentioned come in. The rustle of a leaf, a snapped twig on the ground, these are all tell tail signs of where the enemy is. If Snake spots one of them, that'll lead him to the mutant

Note the ground part of that.Mystique wont be on the ground

If Mystique is going by trees, it's still all the same: a fallen leaf is all that's needed to tell where someone is.

Or that a leaf fell.Or a bird or some other animal hit it.Or that the wind blew.Leaves fall all the time he can assume that each one has sinister intent but chances are he will be shooting at nothing most of it.

Now I'm well aware of how good Mystique is at cloaking herself, her shapeshifting abilities lend to some of the best natural camouflage around. So I'm not saying Snake is gonna make her out through the vast greenness, but all he needs to do is get an idea of where she is. With a Suppressed Pistol, Snake can spend all day letting out pop shots without her realizing, so it's only a matter of time until a bullet tags her, and healing factor or no, blood will surely come pouring out. From there, Snake has an easy target.

That is still assuming she wont see him.Again the foliage is a bigger problem for Snake than her.No matter how good you are getting through that kind of stuff isnt easy and it isnt silent.Even someone like Snake will have to hack his way through the underbrush unless he wants to tear through it with his body.

Another thing i just realized is that any pathways he makes will also be obvious landmarks letting Mystique know where he is.With paths and a campsite (Both a very hard to miss) Mystique wont have to find Snake at all.All she needs to know is where hes been going or where hell be

#15 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

Ill give you that for them popping up.My point about Snake having no business beating them still kinda stands.

How do you figure that? Snake had no business beating the Fear? The Cobra Unit is basically Captain America's equivalent, they were United States' first Special Forces, and the most elite Black Ops Agents we had to offer, so obviously they were pretty tough, but it's still nothing Big Boss can't handle. The Pain, The Fear, The End, The Sorrow, The Fury, and The Joy all fell to the hands of the legendary mercenary. Afterwards, Jack went on to face far bigger fish, literally.

Mystique can take a couple Sentinels on no probs, but in his later years, Big Boss destroys armies of giant battle tanks and flying war machines.

Regular tanks and attack choppers are cannon fodder to Big Boss; hell, they're cannon fodder to the MSF Soldiers that Big Boss trains!

Nuclear equipped bipedal death mobiles aside, Naked Snake has gone on to defeat artifically enhanced super ninjas.

Null was literally "The Perfect Soldier." He was a trained killer before he hit puberty, taking down entire military units, often armed himself with only a knife.

He was later enhanced through gene therapy to be even more badass.

Then there's Python, the Anti-Snake. He laughs off rifle fire and flash freezes full grown men.

Mr. Freeze eat your heart out.

Perhaps most interesting of all was Gene. The leader of the CIA Special Forces Unit FOX, Gene was part of the Successor Project, which granted him immense abilities: speed enough to blitz a psychic before she could read his mind, powerful ESP abilities, and even a Tao-style form of mind control.

He moved well faster than the eye could see, and his enhanced speed was so much that he could evade fire from a gatling gun while appearing to stand still. He stomped Null without effort, Null, being the artifically enhanced super ninja who can deflect machine gun fire from 4 armed soldiers at the same time.

You were saying Big Boss had no business beating the Fear?

There's a reason he's called the greatest soldier of the 20th century, Big Boss routinely defeats enemies with Wolverine level speed and sharp weapons to match, I might even say Gene was faster than Spider-Man (he moved faster than thought, after all)

12:17 Snake owns everyone.

Don't underestimate CQC in the hands of a legendery hero.

Besides Big Boss taking down an entire military unit, take note of Ocelot's shooting skill, killing half a dozen soldiers before any can even react and also throwing out a couple neat trick shots. He's pretty good eh? Well, Snake beats Ocelot in both a gunfight, and hand to hand combat later on (Ocelot learned CQC just by watching Big Boss do it, so by the end of the game he's pretty formidable)

So in terms of hand to hand skill, Big Boss can say he's beaten the likes of Ocelot, The Boss, Null, Gene, Solid Snake (see below), and most impressive of all, Colonel Volgin. Volgin, being a GRU colonel who had a reputation of being the most sadistic bastard you'll ever meet. He possessed powerful lightning powers, and was strong enough to put his fists through the Shagohad's armor, something multiple RPG rounds couldn't put a dent in.

10 million volts of electricity, fists stronger than missiles, and a bullet to the eye, Snake just tanks that sh!t then comes back for more.

The aftermath of a fight with Naked Snake. Keep watching the video and you'll see how Snake goes on to fight his way through an entire army (literally, an entire army)

Just as a reference for Big Boss's combat skill, we'll use his son as a reference (below videos are important, do not skip them)

^ Systematically eliminates an entire squadron of a highly elite resistence unit

^ Whomps a 100 tonner who's faster than the human eye can see

^ Undisputably the greatest fight scene in the history of forever (Ocelot dents steel with his punches and jumps 40 fuggin feet in the air, so beating him is pretty impressive)

Whoa, Solid Snake is pretty badass. Let's see how he fairs against his daddy.

Hey now! That was pretty... anti climactic.

Big Boss is about 79 now, but that doesn't stop him from showing off.

In terms of physicals, Big Boss is well into peak human, even above that in durability and endurance. As you can see in my second post, I went over some examples of his uncanny resistence and strength, but that was only the beginning. Big Boss takes 200 foot dives onto solid ground and barely grunts, in terms of strength, he was shown stronger than the Boss, who could lug around a 630 pound Davy Crocket through the jungle, with one hand.

Assuming her left hand is as strong as her dominant, that puts the Boss at a weight of 1,200 pounds. Even Captain America only benches 1,100, 100 pounds less.

Not bad for a girl eh?

Now that's not to say Big Boss will outmuscle Mystique, whether Snake is peak human or not, Mystique is still superhuman. I'm just saying, Snake can keep up, especially considering he's beaten far stronger and faster enemies in the past, as I went over above.

His uncanny gun skill is also something to note. Matching Revolver Ocelot in a gunfight is something to be proud of.

3:55, OK, time to shoot a rocket launcher in bullet time with impossible accuracy!

-Big Boss

That's the most direct accuracy feat in the video, but if you keep watching, Big Boss takes on an entire army... and wins.

Big Boss defeats a league of snipers with an assault rifle.

So, all that said, I hope I've proven to you that Naked Snake, did indeed, have plenty business beating the Fear. If you don't have anything left to add, we can go to voting.

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#16 Posted by Sherlock (7245 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Votes should be fine here.Send out the message

#17 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

Big Boss vs Mystique. Can we get some votes?

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#18 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Eh, Im actually leaning toward Big Boss due mostly to Gear. With all that its hard to come up with a good Hunt Down ad Kill strategy. Also should Mistique morph into a animal that animal will look awfully suspicious with Guns on it. Its just too hard to sneak up on the sneaking master with all that Prep Gear.

#19 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

Big Boss vs Mystique. Can we get some votes?

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#20 Posted by Fetts (4421 posts) - - Show Bio
@nickzambuto: Err... Maybe tomorrow.
#21 Posted by Asterixfighterz (6 posts) - - Show Bio

Objectively, Sherlock wins, mainly because he didn't have an orgy out of context videos that have been addressed in the past, he didn't lie numerous times, ignore facts and over inflatuate mediocre feats that hold no relevance in a fight

Plus Mystique would pwn Big Boss quite easily. He can't contend in a physical fight and she's better at stealth then he is.

#22 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Asterixfighterz: Oh your persornel Stalker/Troll. With a new account!? Again.....

Thats cute....

#23 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fetts said:

@nickzambuto: Err... Maybe tomorrow.

It's a very short, and (if I do say so) awesome debate. C'mon.

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#24 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

Asterixfighterz: Oh your persornel Stalker/Troll. With a new account!? Again.....

Thats cute....

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#25 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: lol

#26 Posted by Floopay (8641 posts) - - Show Bio

I love how easily giant vehicles made of metals go down to machine gun fire....that always makes me laugh. And those vehicles are supposed to be advanced technology. Just out of curiosity, how long do you think it'd take for an AK-47 to take down a howitzer?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#27 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

I love how easily giant vehicles made of metals go down to machine gun fire....that always makes me laugh. And those vehicles are supposed to be advanced technology. Just out of curiosity, how long do you think it'd take for an AK-47 to take down a howitzer?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

1) Snake spent hours fighting in canon. Ammo and whatnot was never a problem, he could always call in MSF Mother Base for a supply drop.

2) The AI pod (cylindric red glowy thing) is a weakness to the mechs during gameplay. I'm not sure about story wise; the Mammal Pod on Peace Walker can supposedly withstand a nuclear war, but that might only be the mammal pod, considering how much more important it was then the others.

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#28 Posted by Floopay (8641 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Floopay said:

I love how easily giant vehicles made of metals go down to machine gun fire....that always makes me laugh. And those vehicles are supposed to be advanced technology. Just out of curiosity, how long do you think it'd take for an AK-47 to take down a howitzer?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

1) Snake spent hours fighting in canon. Ammo and whatnot was never a problem, he could always call in MSF Mother Base for a supply drop.

2) The AI pod (cylindric red glowy thing) is a weakness to the mechs during gameplay. I'm not sure about story wise; the Mammal Pod on Peace Walker can supposedly withstand a nuclear war, but that might only be the mammal pod, considering how much more important it was then the others.

I'm just saying, armor plating should literally be unaffected by that sort of weaponry, especially on something that size. :P

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#29 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@nickzambuto said:

@Floopay said:

I love how easily giant vehicles made of metals go down to machine gun fire....that always makes me laugh. And those vehicles are supposed to be advanced technology. Just out of curiosity, how long do you think it'd take for an AK-47 to take down a howitzer?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

1) Snake spent hours fighting in canon. Ammo and whatnot was never a problem, he could always call in MSF Mother Base for a supply drop.

2) The AI pod (cylindric red glowy thing) is a weakness to the mechs during gameplay. I'm not sure about story wise; the Mammal Pod on Peace Walker can supposedly withstand a nuclear war, but that might only be the mammal pod, considering how much more important it was then the others.

I'm just saying, armor plating should literally be unaffected by that sort of weaponry, especially on something that size. :P

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

True, that always bugged me about Peace Walker. In all the other games, you either have Stingers up the ass or you're screwed.

Peace Walker was a PSP game, so that might have something to do with it.

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#30 Posted by Floopay (8641 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

I'd like to say Mystique. Because I do honestly believe she is physically superior, and a better trained assassin.

But Snake is more than trained enough with the equipment he is using to tilt this pretty well in his favor. I'm giving this one to you.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#31 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: @nickzambuto: Peace Walker aside (as its one MG after another nonsense) all the other Metal Gears require Stinger Missils or advance Weapons.

#32 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@nickzambuto:

I'd like to say Mystique. Because I do honestly believe she is physically superior, and a better trained assassin.

But Snake is more than trained enough with the equipment he is using to tilt this pretty well in his favor. I'm giving this one to you.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

What makes you think Mystique is better trained? Naked Snake was the personal protégé of The Boss, the mother of special forces who led the Cobra Unit and was the daughter of a high ranking member of the Philosophers. I could (and should) write a whole page about The Boss, what training has Mystique gone through?

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#33 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Floopay said:

I'd like to say Mystique. Because I do honestly believe she is physically superior, and a better trained assassin.

But Snake is more than trained enough with the equipment he is using to tilt this pretty well in his favor. I'm giving this one to you.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

What makes you think Mystique is better trained? Naked Snake was the personal protégé of The Boss, the mother of special forces who led the Cobra Unit and was the daughter of a high ranking member of the Philosophers. I could (and should) write a whole page about The Boss, what training has Mystique gone through?

I Agree. I think Big Boss is more proven in training and skill.

#34 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Floopay: @nickzambuto: Peace Walker aside (as its one MG after another nonsense) all the other Metal Gears require Stinger Missils or advance Weapons.

Technically, it's one MG before another :P the last real Metal Gear chronologically was in MGS2, over a decade ago.

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#35 Posted by Floopay (8641 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Floopay said:

@nickzambuto:

I'd like to say Mystique. Because I do honestly believe she is physically superior, and a better trained assassin.

But Snake is more than trained enough with the equipment he is using to tilt this pretty well in his favor. I'm giving this one to you.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

What makes you think Mystique is better trained? Naked Snake was the personal protégé of The Boss, the mother of special forces who led the Cobra Unit and was the daughter of a high ranking member of the Philosophers. I could (and should) write a whole page about The Boss, what training has Mystique gone through?

I didn't say better trained, I said better trained assassin. Snake is undoubtedly better at espionage, infiltration, etc. Mystique has always struck me as the best at getting in, taking down one target, maybe a couple guards or so, unnoticed, and then getting out.

Thanks for reading,

FLoopay

#36 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@nickzambuto said:

@Floopay said:

I'd like to say Mystique. Because I do honestly believe she is physically superior, and a better trained assassin.

But Snake is more than trained enough with the equipment he is using to tilt this pretty well in his favor. I'm giving this one to you.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

What makes you think Mystique is better trained? Naked Snake was the personal protégé of The Boss, the mother of special forces who led the Cobra Unit and was the daughter of a high ranking member of the Philosophers. I could (and should) write a whole page about The Boss, what training has Mystique gone through?

I Agree. I think Big Boss is more proven in training and skill.

Skill and training are two different things. I can understand if someone who's never played MGS before says Mystique is more skilled; I highly disagree with that person, but I can understand.

Training on the other hand, I don't think it's arguable, Big Boss has had better.

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#37 Posted by Floopay (8641 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

I've only played the first two MGS to be honest.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#38 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@nickzambuto said:

@Floopay said:

@nickzambuto:

I'd like to say Mystique. Because I do honestly believe she is physically superior, and a better trained assassin.

But Snake is more than trained enough with the equipment he is using to tilt this pretty well in his favor. I'm giving this one to you.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

What makes you think Mystique is better trained? Naked Snake was the personal protégé of The Boss, the mother of special forces who led the Cobra Unit and was the daughter of a high ranking member of the Philosophers. I could (and should) write a whole page about The Boss, what training has Mystique gone through?

I didn't say better trained, I said better trained assassin. Snake is undoubtedly better at espionage, infiltration, etc. Mystique has always struck me as the best at getting in, taking down one target, maybe a couple guards or so, unnoticed, and then getting out.

Thanks for reading,

FLoopay

Fair enough.

I still disagree, but I won't push it :P

We should do Snake vs Punisher sometime.

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#39 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@nickzambuto:

I've only played the first two MGS to be honest.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

I'll never understand how someone can play even an hour of that series, then not immediately have his blood boiling for more. Why stop at two?

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#40 Posted by Floopay (8641 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

No PSP for one, even Crisis Core I had to spend the better part of two days getting an emulator to run it.

Punisher would be a cool matchup for Snake, but I don't think Punisher has what it takes to take him down. I mean he took Doom down once, as well as Spiderman, and more than a few others. But I'm not sure what else I could come up with for him.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#41 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Punisher would evenly match Snake with Prep vs Snakes Stealth.

#42 Posted by nickzambuto (13049 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@nickzambuto:

No PSP for one, even Crisis Core I had to spend the better part of two days getting an emulator to run it.

Punisher would be a cool matchup for Snake, but I don't think Punisher has what it takes to take him down. I mean he took Doom down once, as well as Spiderman, and more than a few others. But I'm not sure what else I could come up with for him.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

There are only two MGS games for PSP, you could still play 3 and 4.

I always penned Punisher as Solid Snake's Marvel counterpart, if anyone. If you're not up for a debate that's cool, I figured you'd probably be the man if there was one.

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#43 Posted by Floopay (8641 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Hmmmm, maybe. The problem is I don't actually own any comics anymore (hard copies at least), except the ones on my computer, and I have no idea how to get scans off comicrack short of screen shotting and cropping photos, which I hate doing.

So if we do debate you'll be seeing a lot of whatever scans I can find online, or if I can't find scans, I'll just have to source around which issue something happened and what story arc.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay