@nickzambuto: Are you finished your reply? I will have to get back to you tomorrow.
@Sufferthorn: @Lvenger: Thank you.
Challenge a Viner: NickZ vs Jashro44
Closing Comments
I heavily editted my previous post, so anyone who's read up to here should go back and re-read it.
Now, I must say, this was an awesome debate. Big Boss and Black Panther are so similar in numerous ways, but also very different. I'm going to give a stats rundown, to help compare the two.
Strength - If I'm nice, I'll say Black Panther will win in a punching contest. While Solid Snake absorbing the recoil of a Rail Gun with no noticeable strain is undoubtedly the most impressive strength feat thus far posted in this thread (BP's best strength feat was probably lifting the 1 ton throne, but a Rail Gun blast would pack much more force than 1 ton) I still have to give it to T'Challa, just for his sheer volume of consistent feats. Being the single strongest human being in his respective universe is something Big Boss can be proud of, but I won't say he's the stronger man.
He does have one helluva body doe.
Endurance - This is where Snake picks things up. Most of Black Panther's supposed durability seems to be reliant on Cap scans. That's just fine, however, it should be noted that everything you posted Cap doing, Liquid Snake, Solid Snake, and Big Boss all did too. And in addition to tanking explosions and high dives, Big Boss specifically also washes his hands with liquid nitrogen, gets off on 10 million volts of electricity on constant stream through his body, tanks RPG punches, endures FOXDIE for over 15 minutes, can fight for hours in a closed arena while every step he takes is painted with rocket-fuel laced flames, survive Zanzibar's self destruct, and take no damage from a full grown horse stomping on his hand (average horse can weigh almost a ton, so logically, if Black Panther wants to do any damage, he'll need to be throwing out 1 ton punches every other hit)
Speed - Personally, I would give Naked Snake the edge in combat speed. True, Black Panther can avoid Wolverine and keep up with Spidey, but Big Boss can stomp Null and murder Gene, who should be more or less equal to Wolvy and Spidey respectively.
0:20 - 1:10
Pretty fast eh?
Black Panther will win in a race, but there's nothing to say Snake can't fight on even grounds with him.
Skill - Tie? There's really not much to set these two apart, in pure martial skill. Black Panther beats Captain America, Big Boss beats Solid Snake, T'Challa fights Killmonger, John fights Joy, BP stomps Hand Ninja, BB stomps MSF Soldiers. Black Panther is the king of Wakanda, Big Boss is the leader of Outer Heaven. Black Panther can deaden your arm with a tap, Big Boss can snap your shoulder with a yank. List goes on.
However, there are a few notable scenario specific advantages that Snake holds in this match. For one, gear. Black Panther almost always has highly advanced technology and gear to fall back on, most notably, a Vibranium Battle Suit that I'm sure helps get him along. He doesn't have that here. Snake meanwhile, has always done what he does on pure warrior instinct. So if we compare their past battles, BP beating Cap and taking on Spidey etc, we should factor in he has indestructable body armor to help. When Snake takes on Gene and Volgin, he has to get by on just his wits and his will. Since T'Challa is without his suit here, that makes a big difference.
Secondly, a BIG advantage to Snake, is the simple fact of knife combat versus H2H. There's no doubt that the soldier is the more skilled knifesman, since CQC is traditionally supposed to be used with one.
Martial skill aside, when has Black Panther shown himself to be a blade expert of Snake's caliber, who is known to whiddle down the base of his guns so he can equip a knife at the same time?
Stealth - This is the deciding factor. Let's be honest, we both know that these two, head to head just going at it, it can last for hours. If we're honest here, the winner of this match is gonna come down to who can sneak up on who. If you ask me, the answer to that question is Snake.
As we've been over, Naked Snake is an unparalleled tracker, and hunter. He has all the skills necessary to avoid any assortment of traps Black Panther sets up, and can easily predict his enemies plan just by their placement. From there, it's just a matter of finding T'Challa. Easier said then done, but Big Boss can sneak up on people who are literally invisible. He easily trecks miles around the forest, avoiding the End's sniper scope, and somehow gets right up on the old fool.
Considering the End can apparently talk to the forest, Snake's stealth instincts must be supernaturally accute to literally blend himself in so well that he literally became one with the jungle, to the point where the End had no idea he was right behind him.
Deep into the main Spetsnaz base, Snake can avoid contact with hundreds of patrolling enemy soldiers as he covertly makes his way across the entire base, while half naked and suffering from fatal-for-anyone-else wounds. That should be quite a bit more difficult then sneaking past ninjas and getting 1 on 1 with Kingpin.
2:17 dem silent steps
Eavesdropping on precogs, disabling active claymores, disappearing from sight - hell, keep watching the video I posted of Gene to see Snake just ghost right past everyone and get right up on the commander.
I've yet to see Black Panther stealth feats that say he's better than the man who trained Solid Snake.
@nickzambuto: Part 1
I disagree. We get a clear view of Snake falling several hundred feet casually, but the Cap scans are a bit more ambiguous as to exactly how high up he is.
The best indication we have is his feet going through the rock and trashing the car, but a 200+ pound man doesn't really need to gain that much velocity to do those things.
At most I'd say they're equal. Snake has also jumped over 30 feet straight up into the air, again same as Cap, not to mention the line between land and water blurs seriously when you're 500 feet up, and Snake took two falls of that height in MGS3.
Snake never went through rock or crushed a car in the videos you posted. This leads me to believe cap fell with more force. But if you need something better how about getting tossed by class 100 war machine into john steele (who IIRC can fold a tank in on itself, hardly the softest thing to land on) and causes a crater in the ground and steve is unfazed.
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Cap didn't break through the door though, he just knocked it off it's hinges. Not unimpressive, but easier than it sounds.
He also struggled quite a bit with just that.
That was steve when he could barely stand IIRC. So he was far from 100%.
Ocelot has jumped from ground level to Metal Gear RAYS cockpit, and Big Boss up to Peace Walker's AI Pod, both of which are taller than your average Sentinel.
From what I have seen they are not. Besides wolverine did this with ease.
And wielding a Rail Gun with your bare hands is harder than you think it is. That thing packs the power of a tank turret with recoil to match; that's a lot more than one ton. And Old Snake destroyed a battalion of Gekkos with it while dodging bullets and snare wires
Still doesn't seem harder than stopping an elephant from charging if we are going by these sorts of feats. Also he was only dodging bullets during game play not cut scenes unless I'm missing something?
all in his old age, that's a lot better than lifting the throne and supply cart. Snake even went so far as to resist a Gekko pulling him in when snagged by a snare, something that not even Raiden could do. And Big Boss was stronger than Snake!
Snake getting caught in a snare was a game play mechanic as well wasn't it? And what source do you have that says big boss is stronger than snake?
If you're so insistent on using Cap feats, then by all means, Solid Snake in his prime can catch a 200 pound Meryl in his arms when she jumps from the top of Metal Gear REX. So that's 200 pounds, given 40 feet to gain velocity, well past 1,000 pounds.
A ton is 2000 pounds. So that still isn't as strong as black panther who is basically a 2 tonner.
Snake bungee jumped from the top of the Washington Bridge all the way down to a passing ship below, landing hard enough to destroy the Stealth Camo he was wearing, but taking no damage himself.
Durability does not equal to strength. All though that is impressive I still don't think that tops black panther or cap.
With the Metal Gear Mk. III in his arms adding an extra 20-50 pounds, Snake can easily withstand the G-Force output of being catapulted five stories into the air when jumping ship over to Arsenal Gear; again, in his old age. Then he crashes down and is still fine enough to tank some radiation and fight an army, while having a seizure no less.
Impressive.
Revolver Ocelot tanked a point blank C4 explosion, and The Boss survived being rocketed into outer space with no heat/radiation shields, then crashing down all the way from the exosphere
Big Boss was stronger then them all.
That's all very impressive but that doesn't really have to do with strength but durability. And when was is stated big boss was stronger than all of them?
When it comes to raw strength, there's nothing to say Black Panther is superior than Big Boss.
I didn't wanna bring this up, but Big Boss caught Metal Gear ZEKE's leg at one point, much to the astonishment of Paz.
It was f*cking dumb though, so don't even mention it.
I haven't really seen much to put big boss into the 2 ton zone. As for your zekes leg if it is stupid it should probably be dismissed however...
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Evens out with Ocelot tanking a C4 explosion at point blank; the C4 actually made a bigger boom so I might say it was more impressive.
Seems like he was just gazed by the explosion. Cap was completely submerged in gambits attack and took it at point blank range.
Just an example of Big Boss's endurance. I can say that Snake isn't gonna throw BP from a helicopter, and that would make all the Cap scans you posted null as well.
Not really. Jumping out of a airplane shows durability to blunt trauma. An example is how mr.freeze is resistant to the cold (pretty sure he can survive the coldest temperatures possible) yet batman can still hurt him with strikes. There are different sorts of durability.
You really do your research :P
I try :p
No, Elisa and Ursala are the same person. Gene talked a split personality into them so he could manipulate her; Ursula got the power at the expense of her humanity, while Elisa maintained her humanity but became weak.
The girls later go on to explain the entire MGS story in a prediction, so Ursula is indeed powerful. But Snake was just so subtle in his approach that she didn't see him coming.
OK but they don't sense everything. She said so herself. So its not that snakes stealth was so good he just sneaked up on them its just they never got a vision.
Big Boss first met Frank Jaeger in 1966, if I remember correctly. Years later when they meet again, Snake deduces who he is, because his fighting style was similar to the boy he met years ago.
That is just memorizing a fighting style not reading body language.
And any instance of Black Panther wrecking Taskmaster is an inconsistency, considering Taskmaster can fight Bucky and Captain America at the same time.
No its not. Black panther embarrasses a lot of top tier fighters. He was literally playing games with wolverine when wolverine was trying to kill him. He also 1 shotted kanark who has shown technique which allows him to knock out silver surfer.
It's just a showing of his technical knowledge of fighting mechanics. He's a natural.
Not really. Lots of people can create a style. Howe effective it is is another thing. The boss herself called CQC basic.
That's not the same. Black Panther has learned numerous styles, and incorporated them all into his own signature style.
Big Boss literally created one from the ground up.
No it was stated black panther uses cat like stances, strikes, and moves. Name a martial arts which uses cat like stances, strikes, and moves. Black panther does use, however other styles in addition to the one he made.
Snake was airdropped into the middle of Russia; EVA gave him directions to the base, but she can't guide him through it, telling him how to avoid guards and stay out of sight.
Fair enough.
Black Panther knows pressure points and such, but Big Boss can counter that by knowing forms of holds, throws, and grapples. Big Boss may not know where to strike a nerve cluster, but he can break Black Panther's arm in 27 different ways. If Big Boss can grab Black Panther and restrain him, I seriously doubt T'Challa can break free.
Black panther also knows how to break bones. And he has escaped holds before. He escaped holds from beast who was like a 5 tonner, and 2 guys when he had no leverage. A skilled enough fighter can escape holds. And I still don't believe big boss is a 2 tonner.
And since you brought the knife up, that's another advantage to Big Boss. CQC is supposed to be a weapons based fighting style, with a knife being a basic requirement.
Black panther incorporates his speed and agility in his fighting style anyways so he isn't going to get hit.
You showed a scan of BP sneaking past cannon fodder, I was just trying to match it. Only difference is Snake didn't need to create a distraction himself, he's just fine working with the environment around him.
- I uploaded a scan of black panther vanishing in front of typhoid mary and lady bullseye.
- I uploaded the scan ot show what black panther can do if he spots snake first. If black panther sees snake and snake does not see Black panther, black panther can vanish behind him in the same manor daken can. Thats what the scans show.
Snake can just appear from thin air at his own leisure.
So can black panther
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Raiden spent his entire game making fools of the most elite military group in the business, and singlehandedly destroyed 23 Metal Gear RAYS all at once, so sneaking up on him is no easy feat. If anyone, Big Boss should have the stealth advantage in this match, considering he taught Snake everything he knows and also managed to sneak up on him at the end of MGS4.
I all ready admitted that snake has the stealth edge all though I think that is balanced out by 2 things.
- His senses. Even without his enhanced senses black panther was able to determine kraven had been following him.
- Black panthers intellect. I all ready showed scans of him out smarting people like doom, mephisto, and iron man.
I believe that since black panthers senses are sharper he has an equal chance of snake sensing him as snake does him. And snake will be deactivating T'challas traps, which black panther will keep his eyes on. Not to mention black panther wont go far away from the water either (an area snake will need to go to hunt and drink).
He was just having another episode because Snake whomped him so bad.
He was chatting it up just fine in the fight, so it's obvious he was doing ok at that time.
At 2:38 grey fox says "hurt me more!" so is it not possible that he let snake beat him?
And just so we're clear, Gray Fox was the only FOXHOUND agent to ever recieve the code name Fox. That makes him the equivocal of the head League of Assassins member, when compared to DC, and a top SHIELD agent when compared to Marvel.
True that Black Widow and Talia al Ghul aren't going to be outskilling Black Panther any time soon, I just want to be clear that Fox isn't a brawler. He is skilled at H2H, to answer your later question (watch the clip above and hear his words: "Only a fool trusts his life to a weapon!")
OK.
Captain America: More skilled than Fox but lacks his strength and speed
Yes.
Spider-Man: Not as skilled as Fox, not as strong or durable, about as fast. BP can't beat him anyway.
Sure but he would beat big boss as well. All though he did take the upper hand on spider-man in both of there encounters. Also I only uploaded the fight where spider-man compared black panthers agility to his as a speed feat and the one where he hurt spider-man as a striking feat (spider-man remarking he hits like an oak tree). Considering punisher who is quite strong failed to hurt spider-man in punisher war zone #1 Black panther hurting him puts him above spider-man.
Wolverine: About as fast as Fox, more skilled, but doesn't have the strength. BP can't beat him anyway.
Snake can't drop him either. And black panther was literally playing game with a wolverine who was trying to kill him.
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Its not like snake beat grey fox either. He just beat him up a little bit. So saying black panther can't beat wolverine is a moot point as the point was he can embarrass him.
Deadpool: Same as above.
Black panther could actually beat deadpool rather handily. However he never fought deadpool killmonger did. I uploaded those scans to show how skilled killmonger was. I than uploaded scans to show how much killmonger had been upgraded (being able to kill an elephant by tackling it) and in addition to that killmonger also studied black panthers moves. And black panther still beat him after a 13 hour fight.
Daredevil: More skilled than Fox, but doesn't have the strength or speed.
I uploaded the daredevil fight to show much like big boss black panther has also taken an upper hand on a man who takes down tanks (or in this case big mechs but its basically the same thing). And daredevil acknowledged black panther was his better.
Etc, you get it. Point is, right there, Snake beat a foe, leagues ahead of anyone who BP has ever faced. And what did Big Boss do to Snake again?
Yup.
He also stomped taskmaster who you yourself stated fights both cap and buckey at the same time, and catches bullets and blitzes the people who also catch bullets as well. And black panther has faced hulk who is also leagues ahead of grey fox. Snake fought 1 guy, who was asking him to hurt him more. And big boss had stomped snake who was weaker and slower as a result of old age. Not to mention he went through everything in metal gear solid 4. So was he even at 100%?
Being capable of one shotting average men is something all peak humans should be able to do. Big Boss can too, all those videos I posted show it, plus the gif. Look, here's some more.
1 shotting them and crippling them are 2 different things. None of those men were stated to be crippled.
You can also see The Boss dodge a near point blank bullet in the first few seconds of that.
Nothing black panther can't do with ease.
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As for the dinosaurs, it's clear Spider-Man did most of the work there. Black Panther only took on one lil guy, and still had trouble.
You wanna talk dinosaurs?
that
vs
that
Suck it Black Panther.
I didn't upload the dinosaur scans as a combat feat. I uploaded it as a striking feat. Black panther was hurting a dinosaur with his punches. Snake did not do that.
This seems like you're trying to cop me out here, but honest answer, between the two Snake simply had more reason to train. He had a goal and a purpose; Big Boss was just drifting his way along. The day The Boss died, Jack's soul died with her. He had no reason to train. Snake did.
It's also worth noting that, when fighting the ninja, Snake was still using CQB. By the time MGS4 came along, he had upgraded to CQC. So Big Boss beat Snake at the pinnacle of his fighting skill prime.
Big Boss>Solid Snake>100 tonner Cyborg
We went over this above So I wont go into detail here I will just copy and paste what I said above here. Snake fought 1 guy, who was asking him to hurt him more. And big boss had stomped snake who was weaker and slower as a result of old age. Not to mention he went through everything in metal gear solid 4. So was he even at 100% in that fight?
Hmm? The entire plot of MGS3 revolves around Naked Snake having to kill his mentor and the moral struggle that goes along with it.
There is no assumption here, Jack was the private disciple of The Boss since the age of 14 for 10 years.
I meant about him training with the shaowlin monks, and all that other stuff you said. That was a response to this
Whatever assortnment of Shamon Monks, Military Officers, or Japanese Ninjas the world had, all it took was a snap of her fingers and the Joy had a knew teacher.
Was any of that training confirmed on screen or are we assuming things.
Physically speaking, Cap and Black Panther are equals.
However, I don't think you can count Cap skill feats for BP as well. Simply put, there's nothing to say the two are equal combatants. They often fight to a stalemate, and with BP often having a massive gear edge, that leads me to believe Cap must be the better fighter in order to last.
Black panther has a better track record than cap does.
Cap vs wolverine
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Wolverine is portrayed as caps better.
Now black panther vs wolverine
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Black panther is portrayed as more skilled.
Kingpin vs captain america
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Kingpin wins.
Now black panther (without his enhancements) vs kingpin
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Stalemate.
Taskmaster vs cap and bucky.
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Black panther vs taskmaster (again this is the whole fight I can upload the whole page if you want)
This is all black panther without tech to BTW. And this is ignoring black panther has more and better technical displays.
I don't recall Daredevil taking on tanks and attack choppers, but either way, my point was that the MSF Soldiers did that, let alone Big Boss.
I uploaded the scans of daredevil taking on multiple mechs with ease. Considering he did this without weapons I think we can say that is more impressive than what those soldiers did.
Wait for part 2!
@nickzambuto:Part 2
Closing Comments
I heavily editted my previous post, so anyone who's read up to here should go back and re-read it.
Now, I must say, this was an awesome debate. Big Boss and Black Panther are so similar in numerous ways, but also very different. I'm going to give a stats rundown, to help compare the two.
I agree. I gotta admit that when I was going into this I thought black panthers feats would easily trump big bosses. All though I gotta admit I am impressed.
Strength - If I'm nice, I'll say Black Panther will win in a punching contest. While Solid Snake absorbing the recoil of a Rail Gun with no noticeable strain is undoubtedly the most impressive strength feat thus far posted in this thread (BP's best strength feat was probably lifting the 1 ton throne, but a Rail Gun blast would pack much more force than 1 ton) I still have to give it to T'Challa, just for his sheer volume of consistent feats. Being the single strongest human being in his respective universe is something Big Boss can be proud of, but I won't say he's the stronger man.
He does have one helluva body doe.
I can agree with this. All though lifting the throne chair wasn't the best strength feat. Stopping the bite of a 20 feat long aligator puts black panther in nearly the 2 ton zone. Average 12 feat long gators have a bite force of about a ton. T'challa stopped a 20 feat long gators bite.
After eight days and testing 60 subjects, Erickson and Vliet recorded a bite with 2,125 pounds of force from a 665-pound, 12-foot American alligator. That's a force equal to the weight of a small pickup truck. The biting force of smaller alligators and crocodiles were basically proportional to their size, thus Erickson and Vliet estimated that SuperCroc had about 18,000 pounds of force to hold on to its prey, or about eight and one-half times the force of the 12-foot alligator's bite.
Taken from
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/03/020328073615.htm
Endurance - This is where Snake picks things up. Most of Black Panther's supposed durability seems to be reliant on Cap scans. That's just fine, however, it should be noted that everything you posted Cap doing, Liquid Snake, Solid Snake, and Big Boss all did too. And in addition to tanking explosions and high dives, Big Boss specifically also washes his hands with liquid nitrogen, gets off on 10 million volts of electricity on constant stream through his body, tanks RPG punches, endures FOXDIE for over 15 minutes, can fight for hours in a closed arena while every step he takes is painted with rocket-fuel laced flames, survive Zanzibar's self destruct, and take no damage from a full grown horse stomping on his hand (average horse can weigh almost a ton, so logically, if Black Panther wants to do any damage, he'll need to be throwing out 1 ton punches every other hit)
I can agree with this. There are a few things I disagree with like the RPG punches (I will let everyone read through the thread to see the evidence for and against it and have them decide if they were being thrown with the force of an RPG) and I don't believe electricity and freezing damage have anything to do with blunt truama personally as it is a different form of damage. All though I do give the advantage to snake I think this is balanced out by black panthers striking power and knowing where and how to hit and 1 shotting people like kanark who has taken hits from class 100 gorgon. So I can see T'challa hurting him using his knowledge of human weak points. And doing some serious damage.
Tie? There's really not much to set these two apart, in pure martial skill. Black Panther beats Captain America, Big Boss beats Solid Snake, T'Challa fights Killmonger, John fights Joy, BP stomps Hand Ninja, BB stomps MSF Soldiers. Black Panther is the king of Wakanda, Big Boss is the leader of Outer Heaven. Black Panther can deaden your arm with a tap, Big Boss can snap your shoulder with a yank. List goes on.
Maybe...All though black panther has better technical showings.
However, there are a few notable scenario specific advantages that Snake holds in this match. For one, gear. Black Panther almost always has highly advanced technology and gear to fall back on, most notably, a Vibranium Battle Suit that I'm sure helps get him along. He doesn't have that here.
Black panther isn't reliant on technology. It wasn't introduced until priests run and even so everything posted here is black panther without tech (outside a few prep feats and his fight with iron fist all though since he was hitting T'challa with the force of a freight train I think we can let that slide). He doesn't need tech. His most recent run was about him without his tech and without his enhancements as well and he did fine.
Snake meanwhile, has always done what he does on pure warrior instinct. So if we compare their past battles, BP beating Cap and taking on Spidey etc, we should factor in he has indestructable body armor to help. When Snake takes on Gene and Volgin, he has to get by on just his wits and his will. Since T'Challa is without his suit here, that makes a big difference.
Not really. As I said everything here is without tech outside like 5 showings.
Secondly, a BIG advantage to Snake, is the simple fact of knife combat versus H2H. There's no doubt that the soldier is the more skilled knifesman, since CQC is traditionally supposed to be used with one.
Martial skill aside, when has Black Panther shown himself to be a blade expert of Snake's caliber, who is known to whiddle down the base of his guns so he can equip a knife at the same time?
Black panther incorporates his speed and agility in his fighting. He wont get hit. He has been in knife fights before and his standard gear you mentioned above are energy daggers which are like knives so black panther is pretty good with a knife. lack panther has faced skiled fights with knives before. He actually used his speed to make one kill himself before.
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This is the deciding factor. Let's be honest, we both know that these two, head to head just going at it, it can last for hours. If we're honest here, the winner of this match is gonna come down to who can sneak up on who. If you ask me, the answer to that question is Snake.
I don't believe stealth is the deciding factor. I think intellect holds more wait. Who will get the better camp? Who will set the better traps? And IMHO its black panther. snake hasn't outsmarted people like doom or ion man where as black panther on the other hand has. So he seems to be more intelligent then snake. Not to mention that despite us agreeing we wouldn't use enhanced senses black panther, even without his enhanced senses still has better senses since he was able to detect kraven who isn't bad at stealth himself. He also wont make a sound in a forest considering he didn't make a sound dropping 30 feat into a cave which magnified sound.
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As we've been over, Naked Snake is an unparalleled tracker, and hunter. He has all the skills necessary to avoid any assortment of traps Black Panther sets up, and can easily predict his enemies plan just by their placement. From there, it's just a matter of finding T'Challa. Easier said then done, but Big Boss can sneak up on people who are literally invisible. He easily trecks miles around the forest, avoiding the End's sniper scope, and somehow gets right up on the old fool.
Impressive I will admit.
Deep into the main Spetsnaz base, Snake can avoid contact with hundreds of patrolling enemy soldiers as he covertly makes his way across the entire base, while half naked and suffering from fatal-for-anyone-else wounds. That should be quite a bit more difficult then sneaking past ninjas and getting 1 on 1 with Kingpin.
Black panther sneaked by thousands of hand ninjas (if not a lot more) and got into kingpings office (who knows what else it is guarded by he is a billionaire and the top crime lord) Point being sneaking into kingpins office isn't that simple. He did this in a urban terrain as well he is use to the jungle.
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Eavesdropping on precogs, disabling active claymores, disappearing from sight - hell, keep watching the video I posted of Gene to see Snake just ghost right past everyone and get right up on the commander.
I've yet to see Black Panther stealth feats that say he's better than the man who trained Solid Snake.
As mentioned ease-dropping on precogs who don't sense everything. As for disappearing from site here you go.
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I do give snake the edge in stealth but I think black panthers senses and his intellect will compensate for the stealth difference.
Anyways good debate nick.
From what I have seen they are not. Besides wolverine did this with ease.
Metal Gear RAY was over 40 feet tall; can you provide scans so we can gauge how tall the Sentinel was? In any case, Ocelot did that with ease too, I didn't even catch it until someone pointed it out to me because he was so casual. And as we've been over, Big Boss is stronger than Ocelot. Conversely, you're using a Wolverine feat, who Black Panther is weaker than.
Also he was only dodging bullets during game play not cut scenes unless I'm missing something?
Snake getting caught in a snare was a game play mechanic as well wasn't it? And what source do you have that says big boss is stronger than snake?
Obviously the Gekko aren't just going to stop using weapons when the cutscene ends. Snake survived in canon, thus he logically must of avoided the bullets.
Big Boss is stronger than Snake based on him having a more muscular body type, more showings, and overpowering Ocelot, who in turn was Snake's physical equal.
It's like if, say, Spider-Man overpowered Captain America. With that logic, Spider-Man should be stronger than Black Panther as well.
A ton is 2000 pounds. So that still isn't as strong as black panther who is basically a 2 tonner.
Yeah, but 200 pounds increasing in velocity from a 40 foot fall would be... a lot.
Should'a payed attention in math class. In anycase, a normal man's arm would of been ripped out of it's socket had he attempted such a thing. Snake didn't even grunt.
Durability does not equal to strength.
It kinda does, as far as a fall is concerned. If Snake didn't have the strength, he would of toppled onto his face rather than landing on his feet. With the durability, he still wouldn't of taken damage, but he wouldn't of landed squarely either.
And when was is stated big boss was stronger than all of them?
Video games don't have magic narrators to spoon feed us info, it wasn't stated, it was shown.
Seems like he was just gazed by the explosion. Cap was completely submerged in gambits attack and took it at point blank range.
Grazed? There was 10 pounds of C4 wired all around the room to trap Snake, and Ocelot was right in front of it when it went off. The explosion literally lifted him off his feet and slammed him against the wall, but even so it's pretty obvious he was ok if an "OOMF" was all he could offer.
If you wanna play it that way, Cap's suit was barely even ripped, just a bit tattered. It was supposed to be the suit that's blowing up, so that makes me think the explosion itself wasn't really all that.
OK but they don't sense everything. She said so herself. So its not that snakes stealth was so good he just sneaked up on them its just they never got a vision.
Ursula does sense everything.
6:40
"Fate would never see me hurt"
Elisa is the one who said her visions don't always come true. Ursula said nothing of the sort. There two different characters (not people) with two different powersets.
That is just memorizing a fighting style not reading body language.
I never said Snake could read body language; but deducing a person's identity based on just the way they swing a sword shows a great deal of skill for themselves. Deadpool and Cap have both been fooled by people they know in disguise before, but Snake can see right through that.
The boss herself called CQC basic.
I really think that's a cop out. One line of dialogue doesn't remove all credibility from a fighting style that has allowed Big Boss to defeat multitonners, especially since there are many other instances of CQC beinf referred to as pretty f*ckin awesome.
Way ahead of it's time
Nobody was using it yet
Big Boss's explolits made him a legend
I reckon they'd lose more than just an eye going up against you
There's even a radio conversation with The Boss where she talks about how no other style was good enough until CQC.
And I still don't believe big boss is a 2 tonner.
Black Panther is? If his greatest feat is lifting the throne, aren't you just doubling his greatest feat? What makes you think BP can do that much more?
At 2:38 grey fox says "hurt me more!" so is it not possible that he let snake beat him?
No. His big speech at the beginning is about how the only thing he lives for is a fight to the death with Snake. Quote, "I will kill you, or you will kill me. It makes no difference."
Fox is fine with killing Snake... but he's also fine with losing. So if Snake is already winning, then he'll go along with that. He gets closure either way. Hence, "Hurt me more!"
I believe that since black panthers senses are sharper
Not that clear cut. Big Boss can hear a conversation from farther than the naked eye can see, spot CIA Elite with specifically camouflaged uniforms hiding in the jungle, defeat a battalion of snipers while armed with an Assault Rifle, know when Ocelot is out of ammo even though he wasn't even around to see him fight, notice Ocelot attempt to eject a bullet by hand even though his vision is obscured, and automatically wake from a nap just from sensing the enemy approach. Solidus Snake can land a critical shot on a Metal Gear RAY 100 yards away without looking, just pinpointing it's position by sound. Old Snake can do the same thing, seeing a sniper bullet as it flies by him Captain America style and headshotting the shooter without looking. He can also defeat four invisible soldiers armed with Rifles while only using hand to hand strikes. Then there's Liquid Snake, who can hear his brother just fine despite being inside an airborn helicopter at the time, and his sight is enough as to shoot down two F-16s Fighter Planes with just a Hind D.
I'm confident all this together outweighs noticing Kraven.
I meant about him training with the shaowlin monks, and all that other stuff you said. That was a response to this
Whatever assortnment of Shamon Monks, Military Officers, or Japanese Ninjas the world had, all it took was a snap of her fingers and the Joy had a knew teacher.
Was any of that training confirmed on screen or are we assuming things.
No, nothing specific was stated, but it is stated that she had the best training, like, possible. I would assume such training would come from an assortment of monks or military officers.
I uploaded the scans of daredevil taking on multiple mechs with ease. Considering he did this without weapons I think we can say that is more impressive than what those soldiers did.
Well sure, but the MSF Soldiers are just random, anonymous canon fodder. So if they can take on military attack units and tanks and choppers thanks to Big Boss's training, and Daredevil is only a couple steps up from them, then that would make Jack a bit above Daredevil, much like Black Panther is.
I can agree with this. All though lifting the throne chair wasn't the best strength feat. Stopping the bite of a 20 feat long aligator puts black panther in nearly the 2 ton zone. Average 12 feat long gators have a bite force of about a ton. T'challa stopped a 20 feat long gators bite.
There are a few things about those scans you posted that I neglected to point out. We'll go in order;
2nd scan he lifts a tree, pushes a 20 ton boulder,
It's very important to note that both of these were done on a MASSIVE adrenaline rush. Quote, "I am the proud prince of Wakanda! May I behold my subjects driven from their homeland while I stand idly by, and do nothing?!"
Without his people in danger, Black Panther won't reach these levels of desperation anytime soon. Not to mention, in regard to the boulder, he himself states that it was "delicately balanced".
bulldogs a 1 and 1/2 ton rhino
I feel this was more skil than strength. BP used his own weight and momentum, and took advantage of the rhino's own power to slam it in the ground. Bulldogging a rhino is impressive, but it's not like he overpowered the animal.
next uses a palm tree as a sling shot to kill a dinosaur while he is wounded and tired
Now if you read this scan, you'll see it downright states that all T'Challa did was hang, and his weight was enough to pull the tree down. Not a strength feat, more so Black Panther needs to go easy on the donuts.
knocks out 10 tonner man ape
Snake did the same to Volgin, only difference is, Volgin had the durability feats to backup his strength. Aren't you the one that said strength and durability aren't the same, hmm?
lifts his thrown chair which has been speculated to be a ton
C'mon man. The lifter says "Whoa, this must way a ton!" I say the same thing about my history book. It wasn't speculated to actually be a ton. The very next words that come from the lifter's mouth are (roughly) "omg it took three completely average men to lift it!"
I doubt three average men can lift a ton. At most, I would wager it around 600 pounds. Nothing Snake couldn't copy.
The Boss fires The Patriot one handed, as did Big Boss.
Neither show any noticable signs of recoil, despite the fact that a mere .45 can have over 400 pounds of force per shot, let alone a fully automatic weapon that can have a caliber of over 200! Rifles aren't meant to be fired continuously IRL, the shooter will just lose control and start spazzing out. That's because nobody can handle the recoil of such a high caliber weapon; that's why you always see mounted machine guns. To actually fire one continuously shows superhuman strength, let alone doing it with one hand!
Each shot would pack the force of over a ton, hence why short round bursts are the way real soldiers do it. Firing it continuously would make you lose any hope you had of an accurate shot. But Big Boss is just like f*ck that, thug life chose me.
Matches the alligator feat? About so. Snake breaks through prison bars, oneshots trained soldiers, and punches locker metal doors in with his fists. He's not short on striking feats.
So, in conclusion, now that I've actually read them, there was some noticable context to almost every scan you posted in regards to strength. Is Black Panther still stronger? Probably. Is it by a whopping degree? No. Is every strike he throws out going to pack 2 tons of force? Doubt it.
Even Solid Snake was strong enough to lift a jeep off himself and Meryl when they were pinned, pretty casually. As we've established,
You mentioned Snake wasn't at 100% here because of everything that just happened in MGS4.
This scene is one month after he beat Liquid, so it's safe to say Snake was fighting best he could.
Black panther has faced skiled fights with knives before. He actually used his speed to make one kill himself before.
When has Gore ever shown himself to be anywhere near Big Boss?
Here's a short list of the most notable combatants Big Boss has tested his skills against.
Gene - Artifical super soldier, his speed comes from the fact that he was so strong, his leg muscles could move him at speeds beyond most humans can even process.
Frank Jaeger - Killing dozens of armed combatants at once before hitting puberty, easily deflects bullets and was the only human to survive the "Perfect Soldier" experiments back as a teenager.
Volgin - Top of the line military training, superhuman strength, easily tanks RPGs but Snake had him coughing up blood.
The Boss - As if her name being The Boss isn't enough, she was the mother of special forces, leader of the Cobra Unit, unmatched combatant, and had some crazy durability as well as strength.
Solid Snake - Big Boss's son. David's own skill has allowed him to defeat Cyborg Ninjas and demolish entire military units with his bare hands, stalemate Revolver Ocelot in a gunfight and kill entire armies at a time, make fools out of a ship full of Marines, and he even had Vamp at his mercy, something Raiden could barely accomplish. In Solid Snake's prime, he barely defeated a 60 year old Big Boss. Both in their prime? Logically, Big Boss should own him.
Now a list of people Black Panther has beat;
Captain America - Physically around Snake and Joy's level, though as far as I know he hasn't tanked a spaceship crash from the exosphere or beaten bullet speed 100 tonners in hand to hand combat like they have.
Iron Fist - An impressive win, but BP only did it thanks to slipping a sonic device behind his opponent's ear.
Killmonger - A tough foe, fights evenly with Deadpool, BP routinely beating him is a good showing. Deadpool himself isn't much more than Null though, worth mentioning.
Kraven - They stalemated, still not a bad showing though.
Taskmaster - Still see BP oneshotting him as an inconsistency, but kudos either way.
Utilization of knives is just the advantage Snake needs to secure himself a win here.
As for stealth, just watch the Ground Zeroes demo.
7 minute mark, scales a mountain cliff with no gear, infiltrates a heavily fortified Patriots base, dodging spotlights and guards, then steals a jeep just to prove he can.
I swear, if only this game came out sooner, then I'd have this match locked up! Until then, we'll call it quits here.
Awesome match, hope to go against you again someday =)
@nickzambuto:
Metal Gear RAY was over 40 feet tall; can you provide scans so we can gauge how tall the Sentinel was? In any case, Ocelot did that with ease too, I didn't even catch it until someone pointed it out to me because he was so casual. And as we've been over, Big Boss is stronger than Ocelot. Conversely, you're using a Wolverine feat, who Black Panther is weaker than.
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And what evidence do you have of wolverine being weaker than black panther? He kept wolverines claws from going through his head just fine.
Obviously the Gekko aren't just going to stop using weapons when the cutscene ends. Snake survived in canon, thus he logically must of avoided the bullets.
How do we know he didn't hide in a corner and simply stay out of sight? How do we know he dodged bullets and snares?
Big Boss is stronger than Snake based on him having a more muscular body type, more showings, and overpowering Ocelot, who in turn was Snake's physical equal.
Snake fought Ocelot as an old man not when he was in his prime. There is a difference in strength.
It's like if, say, Spider-Man overpowered Captain America. With that logic, Spider-Man should be stronger than Black Panther as well.
Sure assuming this is cap in his prime....
It kinda does, as far as a fall is concerned. If Snake didn't have the strength, he would of toppled onto his face rather than landing on his feet. With the durability, he still wouldn't of taken damage, but he wouldn't of landed squarely either.
Than the same applies to cap jumping out of air planes and getting tossed in the ground by class 100 war machine and therefore the same applies to black panther.
Video games don't have magic narrators to spoon feed us info, it wasn't stated, it was shown.
I don't see how it was shown....All I see is a video of him fighting the boss.
Grazed? There was 10 pounds of C4 wired all around the room to trap Snake, and Ocelot was right in front of it when it went off. The explosion literally lifted him off his feet and slammed him against the wall, but even so it's pretty obvious he was ok if an "OOMF" was all he could offer.
The shock wave seemed to knock ocelot away from the actual explosion. He wasn't sub merged in it the way cap was (hence why he came out of the mushroom cloud).
If you wanna play it that way, Cap's suit was barely even ripped, just a bit tattered. It was supposed to be the suit that's blowing up, so that makes me think the explosion itself wasn't really all that.
Ocelots cloths weren't even ripped at all if we are using this logic.
Ursula does sense everything.
6:40
"Fate would never see me hurt"
Elisa is the one who said her visions don't always come true. Ursula said nothing of the sort. There two different characters (not people) with two different powersets.
Snake wasn't trying to hurt ursala in the video. Fate never saw him hurt by having snake listen to him.
I never said Snake could read body language; but deducing a person's identity based on just the way they swing a sword shows a great deal of skill for themselves. Deadpool and Cap have both been fooled by people they know in disguise before, but Snake can see right through that.
Well he hasn't seen black panther fight so I don't see how this is relevant.
I really think that's a cop out. One line of dialogue doesn't remove all credibility from a fighting style that has allowed Big Boss to defeat multitonners, especially since there are many other instances of CQC beinf referred to as pretty f*ckin awesome.
Way ahead of it's time
Nobody was using it yet
Big Boss's explolits made him a legend
I reckon they'd lose more than just an eye going up against you
There's even a radio conversation with The Boss where she talks about how no other style was good enough until CQC.
I was mostly going off of the video you uploaded. I haven't played metal gear so I can only go off of what is shown here. I suppose CQC is all right.
Black Panther is? If his greatest feat is lifting the throne, aren't you just doubling his greatest feat? What makes you think BP can do that much more?
Black panther is a bit short of 2 tons, but he is still close. I bring up stopping the bite force of the gator again. You can go back and look at the science daily link I uploaded as a response to the strength section in your break down.
No. His big speech at the beginning is about how the only thing he lives for is a fight to the death with Snake. Quote, "I will kill you, or you will kill me. It makes no difference."
Fox is fine with killing Snake... but he's also fine with losing. So if Snake is already winning, then he'll go along with that. He gets closure either way. Hence, "Hurt me more!"
He also said "make me feel it!" "Make me feel alive again!" And again you sure his suit wasn't malfunctioning? After he cut off Ocelots hand his suit was sparking up again...
http://www.examiner.com/article/kojipro-explains-twin-snakes-exclusion-from-metal-gear-solid-hd-collection
Also you sure twin snakes is canon? According to this link its not....
No, nothing specific was stated, but it is stated that she had the best training, like, possible. I would assume such training would come from an assortment of monks or military officers.
Than black panther has better training. He stated he studied every fighting style on the planet and he named a style from the ancient city of kung-fu. We don't really know what sort of training the boss had, its a little to vague to say there equals.
Well sure, but the MSF Soldiers are just random, anonymous canon fodder. So if they can take on military attack units and tanks and choppers thanks to Big Boss's training, and Daredevil is only a couple steps up from them, then that would make Jack a bit above Daredevil, much like Black Panther is.
Fair enough
It's very important to note that both of these were done on a MASSIVE adrenaline rush. Quote, "I am the proud prince of Wakanda! May I behold my subjects driven from their homeland while I stand idly by, and do nothing?!"
Without his people in danger, Black Panther won't reach these levels of desperation anytime soon. Not to mention, in regard to the boulder, he himself states that it was "delicately balanced".
There is no such thing as desperation strength. Your adrenaline goes up all the time in life and death situations. Your body does this automatically. No reason to assume he wont have a equally massive adrenaline rush when he is being hunted.
I feel this was more skil than strength. BP used his own weight and momentum, and took advantage of the rhino's own power to slam it in the ground. Bulldogging a rhino is impressive, but it's not like he overpowered the animal.
Look at the way his feet are positioned in that scan. He is pushing away from the rhino. He stopped it. You even see his foot is in the ground in the bottom left scan. And besides I could always post the scans of him wrestling a 5 ton rhino.
Gallery
Now if you read this scan, you'll see it downright states that all T'Challa did was hang, and his weight was enough to pull the tree down. Not a strength feat, more so Black Panther needs to go easy on the donuts.
- Black panther is pretty much pure muscle. So any weight in his body is the result of muscle.
- And if you keep reading the scan it says the palm tree is "straining to return to its natural position". Black panther held the palm tree down while physically weakened.
- he then continued to hold the palm tree down with 1 hand and rolled a boulder on it and launched it.
Its a strength feat.
Snake did the same to Volgin, only difference is, Volgin had the durability feats to backup his strength. Aren't you the one that said strength and durability aren't the same, hmm?
In snakes case yes. We know its not a result of strength when people like cap and snake jump from building where as in man apes case he is 10 tons of pure muscle. But this doesn't matter as I all ready showed black panther 1 shotting kanark. The same kanark who took hits from gorgon (the same gorgon that punched wolverine halfway across the planet) and black bolt. So I could always replace the man ape feat with that one.
C'mon man. The lifter says "Whoa, this must way a ton!" I say the same thing about my history book. It wasn't speculated to actually be a ton. The very next words that come from the lifter's mouth are (roughly) "omg it took three completely average men to lift it!"
I doubt three average men can lift a ton. At most, I would wager it around 600 pounds. Nothing Snake couldn't copy.
Even if it is only 600 pounds he lifted it like it was a styrophone. He didn't actually strain.
Neither show any noticable signs of recoil, despite the fact that a mere .45 can have over 400 pounds of force per shot, let alone a fully automatic weapon that can have a caliber of over 200! Rifles aren't meant to be fired continuously IRL, the shooter will just lose control and start spazzing out. That's because nobody can handle the recoil of such a high caliber weapon; that's why you always see mounted machine guns. To actually fire one continuously shows superhuman strength, let alone doing it with one hand!
Each shot would pack the force of over a ton, hence why short round bursts are the way real soldiers do it. Firing it continuously would make you lose any hope you had of an accurate shot. But Big Boss is just like f*ck that, thug life chose me.
This is a fictional gun that exists in a universe with with highly advanced tech. How do you know it has as much recoil? How do I know they didn't modify it so they have less recoil? And in both pictures you showed big boss didn't fire the gun.
Matches the alligator feat? About so. Snake breaks through prison bars, oneshots trained soldiers, and punches locker metal doors in with his fists. He's not short on striking feats.
Black panther has also broken prison bars, Can cripple (not just 1 shot cripple) a man in a single punch, and can hit hard enough to hurt spider-man (something punisher couldn't do and he does punch hard[also punching in a locker door is easier than you think])
Even Solid Snake was strong enough to lift a jeep off himself and Meryl when they were pinned, pretty casually. As we've established,
My science daily link says if you convert a 12 ft alligators bite force to lifting it would be enough to lift a small truck. Black panther stopped a 20 ft alligators bite force which is nearly double a 12 ft alligator.
You mentioned Snake wasn't at 100% here because of everything that just happened in MGS4.
This scene is one month after he beat Liquid, so it's safe to say Snake was fighting best he could.
Snake sort of stopped fighting back...He didn't really try to over power big boss.
When has Gore ever shown himself to be anywhere near Big Boss?
Here's a short list of the most notable combatants Big Boss has tested his skills against.
He hasn't but thats not the point. Gore was also trained to kill with a knife and black panther was unarmed. Look what happened. Black panther didn't kill him. He made gore kill himself. If you need a better showing here is black panther stomping kravens son who was using a knife. Black panther used energy daggers but it wouldn't have changed anything. Point being is black panther has dealt with knives before and knows a thing or two about knife fighting.
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Solid Snake - Big Boss's son. David's own skill has allowed him to defeat Cyborg Ninjas and demolish entire military units with his bare hands, stalemate Revolver Ocelot in a gunfight and kill entire armies at a time, make fools out of a ship full of Marines, and he even had Vamp at his mercy, something Raiden could barely accomplish. In Solid Snake's prime, he barely defeated a 60 year old Big Boss. Both in their prime? Logically, Big Boss should own him.
I heard big boss was armed when snake fought him when they were in there prime?
Captain America - Physically around Snake and Joy's level, though as far as I know he hasn't tanked a spaceship crash from the exosphere or beaten bullet speed 100 tonners in hand to hand combat like they have.
Black panther can knock big boss out if that is what you are implying. He has the strength to hurt him and he knows where to hit to make it hurt.
Iron Fist - An impressive win, but BP only did it thanks to slipping a sonic device behind his opponent's ear.
When iron fist was trying to kill him. He had to slip it under his mask without Danny noticing. Not really something easy to do.
Killmonger - A tough foe, fights evenly with Deadpool, BP routinely beating him is a good showing. Deadpool himself isn't much more than Null though, worth mentioning.
Thing is killmonger got upgraded after his fight with deadpool. So he is better than deadpool now. And an advantage he has on black panther that he doesn't have on deadpool is that he studied black panthers moves. So that is a bit harder to do then beat null.
Kraven - They stalemated, still not a bad showing though.
He did a lot better than daredevil did. And he was unenahcned here.
Utilization of knives is just the advantage Snake needs to secure himself a win here.
As I said above black panther has faced knife fighters before. He knows how to use a knife and he uses his speed and agility in his fighting style anyways so its no advantage to snake.
7 minute mark, scales a mountain cliff with no gear, infiltrates a heavily fortified Patriots base, dodging spotlights and guards, then steals a jeep just to prove he can.
I swear, if only this game came out sooner, then I'd have this match locked up! Until then, we'll call it quits here.
And if I had been allowed to use black panthers enhanced senses I would have probably won as well. All though I don't quite see how climbing the side of a mountain has to do with stealth?
But good debate nick!
@nickzambuto said:
@nick_hero22 said:
@nickzambuto said:
@nick_hero22 said:
@nickzambuto said:
@nick_hero22 said:
@nickzambuto said:
@nick_hero22 said:
@nickzambuto said:
@nick_hero22 said:
Jashro wins
You said that already.
Quite! Before the Talons come for your head.
My body is ready.
You just wait and see!
You told me the same thing about Smiley having decent showings, and I'm still waiting.
I already posted scans of him wrecking some Synthetics and Xenomorphs and then fighting a Queen in hand-to-hand combat. I also uploaded other scans, but you are too lazy to read them after all the hard work I took to upload just for you. :p
WOOW CANNON FODDER ALIENS??/ I BOW TO TEH SMILES
Xenomorphs are canon fodder? I didn't know that infesting Earth to an extremely dangerous danger degree and all of her surrounding Colonies in the 22th Century was a low feat?
MMM CANNON FODDER BEATING ON CANNON FODDER MAKES THEM NOT CANNON FODDER? LOLOLOL No.
False False False!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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