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#1 Posted by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

Nick

Big Boss

Black Panther

Scenario:

Hunger Games

Gear For Each Combatant As Follows -

Standard Jungle Fatigues

An Empty Canteen

A Box Of Crackers

A Survival Knife

Jungle is 5 miles in diameter. Fighters start on opposite sides. Full knowledge.

#2 Posted by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

You wanna make the first move or should I?

#3 Posted by jashro44 (22934 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I will let you go first.

#4 Posted by Genmacommander901 (6 posts) - - Show Bio

The character with decades of established feats [Black Panther] easily beats the character with barely any feats [Big Boss]

#5 Posted by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

@Genmacommander901 said:

The character with decades of established feats [Black Panther] easily beats the character with barely any feats [Big Boss]

Please leave this to the designated debaters.

#6 Posted by jashro44 (22934 posts) - - Show Bio

@Genmacommander901 said:

The character with decades of established feats [Black Panther] easily beats the character with barely any feats [Big Boss]

If you don't mind me asking, why do you always try to bait nick all the time?

#7 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@Genmacommander901 said:

The character with decades of established feats [Black Panther] easily beats the character with barely any feats [Big Boss]

If you don't mind me asking, why do you always try to bait nick all the time?

He is Nick's Stalker.

#8 Posted by jashro44 (22934 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2: I know its dex_starr but he seems to go to any thread nick is apart of and seems to really want to debate...What I want to know is why he goes to all this trouble just to debate Nick?

#9 Posted by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@CadenceV2: I know its dex_starr but he seems to go to any thread nick is apart of and seems to really want to debate...What I want to know is why he goes to all this trouble just to debate Nick?

He doesn't want to debate. He wants to send me PMs cursing me out. I tried debating and he just ignores facts and makes stuff up.

#10 Posted by jashro44 (22934 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I guess its best to just ignore him in that case.

#11 Posted by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

@nickzambuto: I guess its best to just ignore him in that case.

I can get an argument up later tonight, it's kinda risky with this storm. The power can go off at any minute and I'll lose everything :P

That actually DID happen in another match of mine, I literally wrote up my argument three times, and the power would turn off at the last sentence each time x_x

#12 Posted by jashro44 (22934 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:LOL no problem I understand its pretty bad over here to.

#13 Posted by nick_hero22 (6948 posts) - - Show Bio

@Genmacommander901 said:

The character with decades of established feats [Black Panther] easily beats the character with barely any feats [Big Boss]

Leave my man alone. I'm the only one who can stalk and harass Nick!

#14 Posted by XImpossibruX (5180 posts) - - Show Bio

This debate is going places.

#15 Posted by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

@XImpossibruX said:

This debate is going places.

Quiet you. Don't make me school you on Goku vs Vegeta again.

#16 Posted by XImpossibruX (5180 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@XImpossibruX said:

This debate is going places.

Quiet you. Don't make me school you on Goku vs Vegeta again.

-__- Goku has a two animes full of scans.

#17 Edited by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, I'll kick it off.

I recently had a Big Boss vs Mystique match, with the same basic Hunger Games setup. I like this match better, because Mystique, for all her skill and abilities, had next to no survival training or experience, and that gave me a clear advantage.

This fight on the other hand, is a bit more even in that regard, with T'Challa being an expert tracker and hunter, much like his opponent. Is he any more or less skilled than Big Boss in that regard? That's open to debate. What I will say, is that Naked Snake is one of the greatest survivalists I've ever seen. Spending weeks at a time in harsh jungle environments, John is perfectly at home with all his jungle friends. He has an enclyclopediac knowledge of all forms of plants and animals commonly inhabiting jungles, and makes sure to sample each and every one of them. Snakes, Rats, Bunnies, Spiders,

...Fish. Big Boss is perfectly content with spending his entire life in the jungle.

Can the same be said for T'Challa? Probably. I'm just saying Snake is at no disadvantage here.

Now that said, hunting is only one aspect of jungle survival. The other aspect, and the one that Snake truly excells at, is tracking. Black Panther is a great tracker too, but he usually has his enhanced senses to get him along. Without them, as he is in this match, I'm sure he'll be hindered a bit.

Snake on the other hand, has hunted delivery trucks for miles through the jungle, every step revealing more and more guards. He's tested his merits against mythical animals, artifical super soldiers, century year old snipers, and invisible war heroes.

Oh, what's that? You took an arrow to the knee? Oh you poor thing.

Snake took an arrow to the knee that was coated in Brazillian Wandering Spider Venom (most deadly spider in the world btw), got up, out stealthed an invisible super soldier, kicked his ass, fought an army, destroyed a giant robot, and saved the world.

Somewhere in between he fought this guy, a superhuman, 100 year old war veteran who's credited as being "the father of modern sniping". The End can conduct photosynthesis on himself so he never gets tired, and never falters. He can match his body temperature to the area around him, and can even "talk to the forest".

Snake snuck up on him, stole his camo, and killed him. Bamsky.

A fallen leaf, a crumpled blade of grass, a scuffed up patch of dirt - these are the basic things you look out for when tracking, and Big Boss sees them all. That's how he outstealthed invisos and dudes with magic camo.

Now, tracking and hunting skills can only get me so far. The secret to being a truly great survivalist, is the ability to conceal yourself. The ability to become one with the world around you.

You gotta be sneaky, to put it bluntly. Now, besides making fools of the entire Cobra Unit, who happen to be the fabled Special Forces Unit who won World War II (basically Cap's equivalent), Snake also spent his entire time during Operation Snake Eater waltzing past the most highly elite soldiers GRU had to offer. At one point, after enduring extreme torture, Snake ran all the way through Grozny Grad, GRU's stronghold populated by hundreds of it's best agents, wearing only a pair of pants, and somehow managed to stay out of sight.

Intense.

Snake's metahuman resistence and durability allow him to tank 10,000,000 volts of electricity blasting through his body, while simultaneously getting the sh*t kicked out of him by Colonel Volgin, the sadistic GRU commander who's punches go right through the Shagohad's armor without effort (multiple RPG rounds can't put a dent in the Shagohad's armor. Thus, Snake's skin>Volgin's punches>RPGs)

After a quick nap, he breaks out of his prison cell, and sneaks through the main base and into the sewers easily, avoiding detection from hundreds of armed soldiers patrolling about.

Naked Snake can literally vanish from sight, ghosting through all his missions without effort. When it comes to stealth, I'm gonna go ahead and say only one person is better than him; his son. Solid Snake.

Not to underestimate BP, but with John's combined stealth and tracking abilities, the element of surprise will be his in this match. Utilizing that advantage to it's fullest, Snake can defeat his opponent in combat, with more or less equal stats and more or less equal skill.

#18 Posted by jashro44 (22934 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Ok, I'll kick it off.

I recently had a Big Boss vs Mystique match, with the same basic Hunger Games setup. I like this match better, because Mystique, for all her skill and abilities, had next to no survival training or experience, and that gave me a clear advantage.

This fight on the other hand, is a bit more even in that regard, with T'Challa being an expert tracker and hunter, much like his opponent. Is he any more or less skilled than Big Boss in that regard? That's open to debate. What I will say, is that Naked Snake is one of the greatest survivalists I've ever seen. Spending weeks at a time in harsh jungle environments, John is perfectly at home with all his jungle friends. He has an enclyclopediac knowledge of all forms of plants and animals commonly inhabiting jungles, and makes sure to sample each and every one of them. Snakes, Rats, Bunnies, Spiders,

...Fish. Big Boss is perfectly content with spending his entire life in the jungle.

Can the same be said for T'Challa? Probably. I'm just saying Snake is at no disadvantage here.

You are correct about the same being said for black panther. I think we can both agree neither are going to starve here but I will go over black panthers ability to survive in nature and endurance anyways just for the sake of.

Here is a example (also doubles as a endurance feat). Black panther did this over the course of 5 days. First off would be when he fought the white gorilla, he kills it despite being wounded from a previous battle. He than spends 3 days in a dessert tracking sombre, who has an acidic touch which reopens black panthers wounds. After defeating sombre he encounters a t-rex and manages to kill that as well. Keep in mind black panther was still exhausted and wounded here and he manages to lift a boulder and use a palm tree as a sling shot. He is than bound to a cactus and ignores the pain, where he is attacked by another dinosaur. He survives, and than defeats his captor and is back in wakanda in 2 days where he finally collapses.

Now the reason I upload this is because black panther pretty much spent 5 days having to track food and water in the wilderness (3 of which was spent in the dessert, hardly the most comfortable environment). He had to have gotten food and water somewhere or else he would have been dead. If he can find food and water in a dessert I'm sure he can find food and water in the jungle. So black panther has spent time in worst jungles when he was wounded and not at 100%.

Now that said, hunting is only one aspect of jungle survival. The other aspect, and the one that Snake truly excells at, is tracking. Black Panther is a great tracker too, but he usually has his enhanced senses to get him along. Without them, as he is in this match, I'm sure he'll be hindered a bit.

Snake on the other hand, has hunted delivery trucks for miles through the jungle, every step revealing more and more guards. He's tested his merits against mythical animals, artifical super soldiers, century year old snipers, and invisible war heroes.

Oh, what's that? You took an arrow to the knee? Oh you poor thing.

Snake took an arrow to the knee that was coated in Brazillian Wandering Spider Venom (most deadly spider in the world btw), got up, out stealthed an invisible super soldier, kicked his ass, fought an army, destroyed a giant robot, and saved the world.

Somewhere in between he fought this guy, a superhuman, 100 year old war veteran who's credited as being "the father of modern sniping". The End can conduct photosynthesis on himself so he never gets tired, and never falters. He can match his body temperature to the area around him, and can even "talk to the forest".

Snake snuck up on him, stole his camo, and killed him. Bamsky.

A fallen leaf, a crumpled blade of grass, a scuffed up patch of dirt - these are the basic things you look out for when tracking, and Big Boss sees them all. That's how he outstealthed invisos and dudes with magic camo.

Snake does seem to be an expert tracker (maybe better than black panther) however I don't see tracking being a huge role here. Black panther is one of the best tacticians in the marvel universe if not the best tactician. He has outsmarted the likes of iron man, doctor doom, and kingpin. Black panther would probably make his tracks obvious. Why? Because he is likely going to set traps in the jungle. I realize combatants don't have a lot of gear with them however black panther has made a device which could shut off typhoid marys powers in 10 minutes with nothing but supplies from a local hardware store. I realize there is no hardware store in a jungle but I don't think it is a stretch that black panther can make snares with vines from the jungle. I don't think it will take long for black panther to set traps. He has done this sort of thing before like in his first appearance he led the fantastic 4 through a series of traps (granted they were high tech but thats besides the point). I can see him doing the same thing to snake.

Black panther being an expert tracker will know the best place to set traps is by the water. All living things need to eat and drink. Logically the water is the best area to be around for both in order to hunt. However black panther being an enhanced human is likely going to get to the water a lot quicker than snake is. We are talking about a man who out ran sabretooth. Creed has a head start, and he remarks that no one is that fast

So this means black panther is going to get to the water first and is likely going to have some time to set a few snares before snake catches up.

Now, tracking and hunting skills can only get me so far. The secret to being a truly great survivalist, is the ability to conceal yourself. The ability to become one with the world around you.

You gotta be sneaky, to put it bluntly. Now, besides making fools of the entire Cobra Unit, who happen to be the fabled Special Forces Unit who won World War II (basically Cap's equivalent), Snake also spent his entire time during Operation Snake Eater waltzing past the most highly elite soldiers GRU had to offer. At one point, after enduring extreme torture, Snake ran all the way through Grozny Grad, GRU's stronghold populated by hundreds of it's best agents, wearing only a pair of pants, and somehow managed to stay out of sight.

I don't know about him being able to conceal himself from black panther so easily. Black panther even without his enhanced senses was able to sense kraven who is also pretty stealthy in his own right.

Intense.

Snake's metahuman resistence and durability allow him to tank 10,000,000 volts of electricity blasting through his body, while simultaneously getting the sh*t kicked out of him by Colonel Volgin, the sadistic GRU commander who's punches go right through the Shagohad's armor without effort (multiple RPG rounds can't put a dent in the Shagohad's armor. Thus, Snake's skin>Volgin's punches>RPGs)

After a quick nap, he breaks out of his prison cell, and sneaks through the main base and into the sewers easily, avoiding detection from hundreds of armed soldiers patrolling about.

Naked Snake can literally vanish from sight, ghosting through all his missions without effort. When it comes to stealth, I'm gonna go ahead and say only one person is better than him; his son. Solid Snake.

That was an impressive durability feat but I doubt he hit snake with the force of a RPG. He was interrogating him. And if you wanna play that game...

Black panther tanks hits from the hulk without his vibranium suit. I don't believe black panther tanking hulks hits anymore than I believe snake tanking RPGs. Thats a pretty good stealth feat all though black panther has been able to sneak by hand ninjas and enter kingpins office to talk to him undetected. Black panther can also vanish from sight when people are staring at him (faster than the human eye can follow). Black panther is pretty good at stealth in his own right.

Not to underestimate BP, but with John's combined stealth and tracking abilities, the element of surprise will be his in this match. Utilizing that advantage to it's fullest, Snake can defeat his opponent in combat, with more or less equal stats and more or less equal skill.

I don't think snake will have the element of surprise any more than kraven did. The only reason black panther got tagged by kraven was because he decided not to attack him right away as he needed to help a friend out and was in a hurry (or so he thought it turned out kraven had a plot device he needed). I don't know about snake being better at stealth then kraven. And not to mention black panther himself can be pretty stealthy. I see black panther setting booby traps near the water and other areas in the jungle and leading snake through the jungle. Its going to be hard to track black panther, since his speed means he will likely get a better vantage point, preferably one with higher ground that's near the water.

#19 Posted by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

Here is a example (also doubles as a endurance feat). Black panther did this over the course of 5 days. First off would be when he fought the white gorilla, he kills it despite being wounded from a previous battle. He than spends 3 days in a dessert tracking sombre, who has an acidic touch which reopens black panthers wounds. After defeating sombre he encounters a t-rex and manages to kill that as well. Keep in mind black panther was still exhausted and wounded here and he manages to lift a boulder and use a palm tree as a sling shot. He is than bound to a cactus and ignores the pain, where he is attacked by another dinosaur. He survives, and than defeats his captor and is back in wakanda in 2 days where he finally collapses.

That's intense.

But, if I am to try and prove Snake's own endurance, I'll just give a quick summation of Operation Snake Eater. Having recently suffered extreme lacerations, many broken bones, and a snapped elbow, Naked Snake was sent deep into Soviet territory after barely one week of rest. Not even halfway through the mission, Snake has suffered severe torture, electrocution, multiple gunshot wounds, poisoned arrows; he was extensively beaten by Colonel Volgin as you can see above, who we established had fists more powerful than RPGs, then he literally had his eye shot out, hence the eyepatch he's sporting. Even with wounds as severe as this, he manages to escape his prison cell, sneak past hundreds of guards while wearing nothing but a pair of pants, tank a 300 feet high dive into a river (the average height a human can fall into water from without breaking bone is 90 feet; Snake suffered no injuries from 300), then after recovering his gear, he beats Volgin H2H, fights off an army, destroys a demon robot, tanks crashing a motorcycle into a tree at full speed, fights some more soldiers, and finally kills The Boss, his old mentor who defected to the Soviet Union.

10 ton strength, electric powers, and highest order military training, all that, and the outcome of a fight with Big Boss remains the same. Convulsing on the ground and spitting up blood.

Of course Snake is still fresh enough to fight an army, then destroy the demon weapon giant battle tank, Shagohad.

Big Boss is inexhaustible. You can thank those nifty soldier genes that Naomi Hunter was going on about for that. Endurance is no advantage to Black Panther.

Black panther would probably make his tracks obvious. Why? Because he is likely going to set traps in the jungle.

Traps aren't anything new to Big Boss, GRU personally tricked out all of Tselinoyarsk (the region where Operation Snake Eater took place) with the best they could come up with, and not once did Snake get fooled. He's so subtle in his approach that he can literally disarm claymore mines planted into the ground, without them going off. Snares and pitfalls were abundant during his mission, as were a multitude of other things that I honestly don't even know the name of.

T'Challa is smart, but he should take care not to make his tracks too obvious, because if Snake gets any whiff of a trap up ahead, he'll plan accordingly. And considering he knows he's up against the king of the most advanced civilization on Earth, Jack will surely take note if his target is making this too easy.

Black panther being an expert tracker will know the best place to set traps is by the water. All living things need to eat and drink.

Conversely, Snake being an expert tracker will likewise know that the water is the best place to plant traps, and will be cautious in his approach. He may not be top tier, super comic book genius level like Panther, but when it comes to combat there is no one like Snake. His IQ is over 180, he's fluent in multiple languages, and improv is his second name. Not to mention he singlehandedly masterminded several plots that brought the entire United States Government to it's knees. Twice.

If it wasn't for Big Boss's own son stopping him, he'd be the dominant global super power right now.

That was an impressive durability feat but I doubt he hit snake with the force of a RPG. He was interrogating him.

That wasn't an interrogation. That was a torture session. Volgin is known for being a sadistic demon spawn, several characters make mention of how he's never had a successful interrogation because he always ends up killing them. We see this ourselves twice throughout the game, but Volgin never does anything but laugh. When EVA, posing as Volgin's lover, reveals deep scarring on her back, she states that that's Volgin's "hobby"

And considering Snake had just hours before killed Volgin's homosexual love, Major Raikov (yes, I'm dead serious), Volgin would of been extra pissed (quote, "I'll make you pay for hurting Ivan!")

Conversely, a couple little swipes from Hulk can't really measure up to a dozen full force RPG punches, especially considering Black Panther had the opportunity to roll with the hits and reduce damage.

T'Challa also didn't suffer through 10 million volts of electricity on constant stream rocketing through his body.

Thats a pretty good stealth feat all though black panther has been able to sneak by hand ninjas and enter kingpins office to talk to him undetected.

I don't think alluding Hand Ninjas can compete with trecking all the way through a crowded military base, while near death, without a single sentry spotting him.

Regardless, Snake has also led EVA miles through the forest while dozens of soldiers are directly looking for them. EVA had her abdomen pierced by a branch and was bleeding out, not to mention she wore a bright yellow jumpsuit,

doesn't blend well with a dark forest.

But Snake's stealth skills led them through on the perfect path.

Jack can just ghost right through a crowded engineering facility to get some one on one with Mammal in Peace Walker, and that was an urban facilty. This takes place in the jungle, which is Snake's specialty.

Its going to be hard to track black panther, since his speed means he will likely get a better vantage point, preferably one with higher ground that's near the water.

Black Panther is far from the fastest person Snake has taken on. BP is pretty good at stealth, but so was the Cobra Unit, and Snake defeated each and every one of them, The Boss in particular.

The Boss, with 0 support from the U.S. Government, could covertly plant herself inside Soviet's main research facility, OKB-1. Anyone who knows anything about the Cold War knows how heated and secretive the space race was, and in a world like MGS where mystical powers and super soldiers are perfectly normal, the main research facility for Russia's rocket development science had to be impenetrable. But the Boss did. With no support from the Government.

She fought Jack in a field of white flowers, while she herself was wearing - go figure - a white sneaking suit, perfectly camouflaging herself. Snake meanwhile had a big bulgy dark black suit, so he was at a pretty severe disdvantage. Yet even so, in the end, he killed her by using stealth.

If Big Boss gets the drop on Black Panther, which he should be able to unless BP has some stealth feats that outshine infiltrating a Soviet Space Race Research Facility with no CIA support, then it's all locked up. Snake in his prime has physicals that can match Panther's, and exceed in some areas, and his skill is top tier.

Null, the future Gray Fox AKA Cyborg Ninja, is literally the perfect soldier. He was a trained killer before going through puberty, taking on groups of armed men while armed with only a knife, and beating them all effortlessly. By the time Big Boss fought him, Frank had undergone extensive gene therapy that killed every other test subject except him.

He can easily deflect Machine Gun bullets with his sword from multiple assailants at once, yet Big Boss matched him move for move, stalemating him in their first fight, then beating him in the end. Null had impressive move reading abilities ala Cass Cain, but was unable to read Snake because he moved too fast.

Then there's Gene, who was even faster than Null (directly stated) and was the FOX Commander, making him a highly elite fighter.

Gene was so fast he could evade automatic gunfire from a high powered gatling gun mounted on Metal Gear RAXA effortlessly, while it appeared as if he was standing still. He's so skilled he can catch Null with a throwing knife, and possessed powerful ESP and telepathic powers.

Again, Big Boss owned him.

Big Boss does a lot of owning now that I think about it.

#20 Posted by jashro44 (22934 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

That's intense.

But, if I am to try and prove Snake's own endurance, I'll just give a quick summation of Operation Snake Eater. Having recently suffered extreme lacerations, many broken bones, and a snapped elbow, Naked Snake was sent deep into Soviet territory after barely one week of rest. Not even halfway through the mission, Snake has suffered severe torture, electrocution, multiple gunshot wounds, poisoned arrows; he was extensively beaten by Colonel Volgin as you can see above, who we established had fists more powerful than RPGs, then he literally had his eye shot out, hence the eyepatch he's sporting. Even with wounds as severe as this, he manages to escape his prison cell, sneak past hundreds of guards while wearing nothing but a pair of pants, tank a 300 feet high dive into a river (the average height a human can fall into water from without breaking bone is 90 feet; Snake suffered no injuries from 300), then after recovering his gear, he beats Volgin H2H, fights off an army, destroys a demon robot, tanks crashing a motorcycle into a tree at full speed, fights some more soldiers, and finally kills The Boss, his old mentor who defected to the Soviet Union.

10 ton strength, electric powers, and highest order military training, all that, and the outcome of a fight with Big Boss remains the same. Convulsing on the ground and spitting up blood.

Of course Snake is still fresh enough to fight an army, then destroy the demon weapon giant battle tank, Shagohad.

Big Boss is inexhaustible. You can thank those nifty soldier genes that Naomi Hunter was going on about for that. Endurance is no advantage to Black Panther.

All right I looked into the feat a little more and it seems snake did have rest when he meant Eva at the cave in the waterfall where he recovered his gear. I'm not saying the feat isn't impressive but that may have helped him beat Volgin afterwards and all that other stuff. Also are you sure that was a 300 feat fall? It wasn't really stated to be. And again Volgin was holding back on snake....Snake didn't tank something harder than a rocket launcher. Volgin was interrogating him so he likely wouldn't kill snake as he need info.

Traps aren't anything new to Big Boss, GRU personally tricked out all of Tselinoyarsk (the region where Operation Snake Eater took place) with the best they could come up with, and not once did Snake get fooled. He's so subtle in his approach that he can literally disarm claymore mines planted into the ground, without them going off. Snares and pitfalls were abundant during his mission, as were a multitude of other things that I honestly don't even know the name of.

T'Challa is smart, but he should take care not to make his tracks too obvious, because if Snake gets any whiff of a trap up ahead, he'll plan accordingly. And considering he knows he's up against the king of the most advanced civilization on Earth, Jack will surely take note if his target is making this too easy.

Its more than just the traps that snake has to worry about but the way they are set up and the way black panther will set him up. He will lead snake to a specific area where he wants snake to be and he will fight him there. He will be putting snake into a position where snake will need to get his foot caught in a snare. In secret invasion black panther was able to deduce when the super skrull switched powers/skill sets (he was fighting a skrull that had the powers of various street levelers and himself but he could only use 1 ability at a time) by determining the skrull had "tells". Black panther can use this ability to predict snake. He will be able to use it to see which technique he should use to move snake over a little bit to the right or the left or etc. Along with his superior strength I would say that black panther can force snake t0 move in a direction to a snare.

Yes snake is experienced with traps but can he avoid them while fighting a fighter of black panthers capabilities?

Conversely, Snake being an expert tracker will likewise know that the water is the best place to plant traps, and will be cautious in his approach. He may not be top tier, super comic book genius level like Panther, but when it comes to combat there is no one like Snake. His IQ is over 180, he's fluent in multiple languages, and improv is his second name. Not to mention he singlehandedly masterminded several plots that brought the entire United States Government to it's knees. Twice.

If it wasn't for Big Boss's own son stopping him, he'd be the dominant global super power right now.

Does snake have basic knowledge on black panther and vice versa? He might not expect black panther to beat him to the water. Anyways I'm not saying snake is an idiot but black panther is just smarter. As mentioned above he beat a skrull which had the fighting styles of the best fighters on the planet. He couldn't out fight him but he out thought him. Black panthers mind is his biggest asset. Its helped him in combat before.

If it wasn't for black panther doom would be in possession of the worlds vibranium. IMO out smarting doom is a lot harder to do than taking over the planet.

That wasn't an interrogation. That was a torture session. Volgin is known for being a sadistic demon spawn, several characters make mention of how he's never had a successful interrogation because he always ends up killing them. We see this ourselves twice throughout the game, but Volgin never does anything but laugh. When EVA, posing as Volgin's lover, reveals deep scarring on her back, she states that that's Volgin's "hobby"

And considering Snake had just hours before killed Volgin's homosexual love, Major Raikov (yes, I'm dead serious), Volgin would of been extra pissed (quote, "I'll make you pay for hurting Ivan!")

Conversely, a couple little swipes from Hulk can't really measure up to a dozen full force RPG punches, especially considering Black Panther had the opportunity to roll with the hits and reduce damage.

T'Challa also didn't suffer through 10 million volts of electricity on constant stream rocketing through his body.

It doesn't really matter if its a torture session or a interrogation. Either way Volgin was holding back. From what you described Vulgin seems to enjoy torture. If he hit snake with the full force of a rocket launcher snake would be dead and he wouldn't get a chance to make him suffer for killing his lover.

As for hulk being unable to measure up to an RPG I disagree. Here the hulk fights the boar brothers in the earths core and he causes earth quakes around the planet. That is way more force than a RPG. And black panther couldn't really role with hulks punches considering he was in the air when he got hit. Also black panther was actually hurting hulk in those scans as well...Hulk has shrugged off RPGs like there nothing. So either way snake is taking damage from black panther.

Again I don't think black panther can tank punches from hulk anymore than I believe snake should be able to tank a RPG. And durability to electricity damage doesn't mean much here since black panther is using punching damage or stabbing snake with a knife. Its an impressive pain tolerance feat as I said but black panther should be able to hurt him just fine...

I don't think alluding Hand Ninjas can compete with trecking all the way through a crowded military base, while near death, without a single sentry spotting him.

Regardless, Snake has also led EVA miles through the forest while dozens of soldiers are directly looking for them. EVA had her abdomen pierced by a branch and was bleeding out, not to mention she wore a bright yellow jumpsuit,

doesn't blend well with a dark forest.

But Snake's stealth skills led them through on the perfect path.

Jack can just ghost right through a crowded engineering facility to get some one on one with Mammal in Peace Walker, and that was an urban facilty. This takes place in the jungle, which is Snake's specialty.

He didn't allude them. He walked into shadow land quite cassually and talked to kingpin without his security systems or his hand ninjas notcing him. And he did this in a urban area as opposed to the jungle he is more comfortable in.

Black Panther is far from the fastest person Snake has taken on. BP is pretty good at stealth, but so was the Cobra Unit, and Snake defeated each and every one of them, The Boss in particular.

The Boss, with 0 support from the U.S. Government, could covertly plant herself inside Soviet's main research facility, OKB-1. Anyone who knows anything about the Cold War knows how heated and secretive the space race was, and in a world like MGS where mystical powers and super soldiers are perfectly normal, the main research facility for Russia's rocket development science had to be impenetrable. But the Boss did. With no support from the Government.

She fought Jack in a field of white flowers, while she herself was wearing - go figure - a white sneaking suit, perfectly camouflaging herself. Snake meanwhile had a big bulgy dark black suit, so he was at a pretty severe disdvantage. Yet even so, in the end, he killed her by using stealth.

If Big Boss gets the drop on Black Panther, which he should be able to unless BP has some stealth feats that outshine infiltrating a Soviet Space Race Research Facility with no CIA support, then it's all locked up. Snake in his prime has physicals that can match Panther's, and exceed in some areas, and his skill is top tier.

Black panther has jumped into a 30 foot cave without even making a sound, thing is the cave he jumped into was stated it would magnify sound. He is also wearing an all black costume so it should be hard to see him at night time as well.So snake should find it difficult to trust his ears and his eyes. And when I was talking about speed I was refereeing to running speed. I can upload scans in my next post...Comicvine is being annoying right now.

Null, the future Gray Fox AKA Cyborg Ninja, is literally the perfect soldier. He was a trained killer before going through puberty, taking on groups of armed men while armed with only a knife, and beating them all effortlessly. By the time Big Boss fought him, Frank had undergone extensive gene therapy that killed every other test subject except him.

He can easily deflect Machine Gun bullets with his sword from multiple assailants at once, yet Big Boss matched him move for move, stalemating him in their first fight, then beating him in the end. Null had impressive move reading abilities ala Cass Cain, but was unable to read Snake because he moved too fast.

Then there's Gene, who was even faster than Null (directly stated) and was the FOX Commander, making him a highly elite fighter.

Gene was so fast he could evade automatic gunfire from a high powered gatling gun mounted on Metal Gear RAXA effortlessly, while it appeared as if he was standing still. He's so skilled he can catch Null with a throwing knife, and possessed powerful ESP and telepathic powers.

Again, Big Boss owned him.

Big Boss does a lot of owning now that I think about it.

Well as mentioned above I was talking about running speed as opposed to reflexes. All though if I were to discuss reflexes I would bring up black panther dancing around wolverine who was trying to kill him (black panther thought it was a game), leaping inside sue storms force field before it could close (she has blocked lightning), and having spider-man compare black panthers agility to his own. Again I will try to upload scans in my next post.

#21 Edited by jashro44 (22934 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Here are the feats that wouldn't upload.

Jumping into a 30 foot cavern without making a sound (which would normally amplify noise)

First set he is to fast for wolverine, Spider-man compares black panthers agility to his own and leaping inside sues force field before it closes, And again shows his speed in comparison to wolverines.

#22 Posted by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh my God, I really don't know what's wrong with my computer, but the internet keeps crashing every 10 minutes. I literally typed out my entire argument twice and then I lost it all. I have to copy it every 5 seconds so I can paste it back just in case Safari fails -_-

Hmph, guess Comic Vine just can't handle the combined testosterone of Big Boss AND Black Panther in one thread.

Sorry this is taking so long. I'll get my argument up ASAP!

#23 Posted by jashro44 (22934 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: No problem. Take your time.

#24 Edited by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio
All right I looked into the feat a little more and it seems snake did have rest when he meant Eva at the cave in the waterfall where he recovered his gear.

He took a nap. Is that really enough to disregard the feat? It's not like his wounds are going to heal overnight; if anything, that probably aggravated them even more. And considering the most medical attention he recieved was EVA handing him an eyepatch, it makes no difference.

Also are you sure that was a 300 feat fall? It wasn't really stated to be.

It was damn high I'll say that.

Like I said, average height a human can fall into water from without breaking bone is 90 feet. Snake suffered no injuries from this dive, and it was definately over 90 feet.

It's also worth mentioning that BB had a "fight" with the Sorrow immediately after, where he was forced to confront everyone he's ever killed, and literally feel their sorrow.

So, just saying, Snake has plenty of inner strength to go along with that outer, considering the damned Penance Stare of all things had no effect on him.

And again Volgin was holding back on snake....Snake didn't tank something harder than a rocket launcher. Volgin was interrogating him so he likely wouldn't kill snake as he need info.

Why would he decide to go easy on Snake when he's never showed anyone else any mercy? Volgin doesn't care about extracting info, EVA and Zero state as much, he just wants an excuse to torture people.

If you want more direct feats of Big Boss's endurance, there are plenty other examples of his superhuman ability: over the years he has,

  • Utilized a high speed drone while wearing only his field uniform, whereas the MiG pilots chasing him had to wear pressurized suits to survive in their aircraft;
  • Endured a battle against The Fury while the area they were in burned from the flames of the latter's rocket fuel-laced flamethrower;
  • Managed to embark on Operation Snake Eater and successfully complete his mission despite only a week earlier suffering numerous fatal injuries during the Virtuous Mission;
  • Twice survived a large fall into a body of water in Tselinoyarsk;
  • Survived the ICBMG's missile launch despite standing close to ground zero of the ignition blast;
  • Single-handedly lifted a garage door to allow himself entry to Peace Walker's hangar with his own bare hands, twice;
  • Sustained no injuried after falling off a mountain while chasing Metal Gear Peace Walker at what was implied to be a very large height, a fall that likewise killed The Boss's horse on impact;
  • Despite having been beaten to near death by Solid Snake while in his old age, Big Boss managed to escape Outer Heaven before the self destruct, and saved dozens of rebels and militiamen in the process
  • Survived the self destruct of Zanzibar Land;
  • Endured the effects of the second FOXDIE strain for approximately 15 minutes, while all others exposed died in seconds;

Big Boss has also gone through extensive torture at least once in every game he's appeared in. Cunningham goes as far as to state "This man is a former member of FOX. To him, this doesn't even qualify as torture. I was just saying hello."

Its more than just the traps that snake has to worry about but the way they are set up and the way black panther will set him up. He will lead snake to a specific area where he wants snake to be and he will fight him there. He will be putting snake into a position where snake will need to get his foot caught in a snare.

Fair enough, but there is still a flaw with the plan. While Black Panther is trying to play this by his rules on his turf, Snake will be doing the same. If anything, while he's crawling along the ground and comes across T'Challa's first trap along the water, he'll figure out his opponents plan (it is a pretty obvious plan, a hunter of Big Boss's skill and experience should be able to figure it out) and will plan accordingly.

So while BP is looking out to the water, waiting for his enemy to show up, Snake will be coming around from the other side to get behind T'Challa. From there, John has got it covered.

In secret invasion black panther was able to deduce when the super skrull switched powers/skill sets (he was fighting a skrull that had the powers of various street levelers and himself but he could only use 1 ability at a time) by determining the skrull had "tells".

Big Boss could of done the same. He did do the same actually. Huey directly states that Snake figured out the Pupa's attack patterns in seconds, compared to Panther taking a decent fight scene to detect the Skrull's.

Along with his superior strength I would say that black panther can force snake t0 move in a direction to a snare.

What makes you say Black Panther is stronger than Big Boss?

Anyways I'm not saying snake is an idiot but black panther is just smarter.

In most areas yes, Black Panther is smarter. But, that's like saying Mr. Fantastic is irrevocably smarter than Batman. Sure, Reed can build a mean time machine, but I seriously doubt his odds of escaping one of Joker's traps.

Same applies here. Big Boss won't win any science fair awards, but that's cool because he can get other people to do it for him.

Take Gene for example, the super fast artificial soldier I mentioned before. Gene was part of the Successor Project, which was designed to create the ultimate battlefield commander. As such, his voice was endowed with a special power that allows him "master the hearts of soldiers".

He's a Tao wannabe basically, he's good enough to convince an entire army to abandon their country and follow him instead, not to mention he literally talked a psychic into developing a split personality. Big Boss was not only smart enough to ignore his words, but ended up outalking Gene completely by getting his own soldiers on his side instead.

Snake has built up his own army, like, 5 times, and maintained absolute loyalty from them all.

The Boss of Victory

Snake is an incredible battle commander, and one of the greatest strategists around. And when it comes to battle tactics, on set improv, there is no one else like him.

Two words: CARDBOARD BOX!

In a bind and need a quick disguise? CARDBOARD BOX!

Need a place to keep your weapons? CARDBOARD BOX!

Is that dead body attracting too much attention and you need to stash it somewhere? CARDBOARD BOX!

Who else but Snake would jump inside a delivery truck, get inside a box, and watch as the dumbass guards deliver you to where you need to go?

A cardboard box has a million and one uses as they say, and Snake has figured out each and every one of them.

There's more to sneaking then just being quiet. Snake has developed other techniques to stay out of sight. Hiding in lockers, distracting a sentry with a playboy, killing your enemy with a poisonous snake, etc.

What does Punisher do when he runs out of bullets? He drops the clip and slides in a new one.

What does Snake do? He pockets the clip and uses it to distract a guard later.

These are the basics every soldier needs to know if he hopes to complete his mission, and Snake is the best there is as POS.

My point is, Big Boss is an excellent battle commander, and an incredible strategist. He can certainly match Black Panther in this regard, and in a no prep match, tactical thinking is all that matters.

From what you described Vulgin seems to enjoy torture. If he hit snake with the full force of a rocket launcher snake would be dead and he wouldn't get a chance to make him suffer for killing his lover.

Like it or not, RPGs have never had much of an effect on anyone in the Snake family. Liquid Snake, Big Boss's genetic clone, tanked being inside a helecopter as it exploded, ate about 9 Stinger Missiles, had his face smashed in by his brother, plummeted 50 feet onto solid ground, and still got up to take multiple gunshots, followed by flipping his jeep upside down at full speed, and then got up again ready for round 2.

It was only after FOXDIE took effect did Liquid die, and as I explained, Big Boss withstood the virus for 15 minutes; Liquid about 15 seconds.

Solid Snake has a similar wrap sheet, beating a 100 tonner Cyborg Ninja in hand to hand combat.

Pretty epic eh? Now let's see how Solid Snake measures up to his daddy.

CQC - Close Quarters Cuddles.

Black panther has jumped into a 30 foot cave without even making a sound, thing is the cave he jumped into was stated it would magnify sound.

Big Boss did that plenty of times, during the Peace Walker Incident and Operation Snake Eater. There are techniques you use to quiet your falls, people IRL can probably do that if they know what they're doing.

All though if I were to discuss reflexes I would bring up black panther dancing around wolverine who was trying to kill him (black panther thought it was a game), leaping inside sue storms force field before it could close (she has blocked lightning), and having spider-man compare black panthers agility to his own.

I would think Null can match Wolverine in speed, if not exceed him, and like I said Big Boss owned him when he threw away the guns and went H2H.

Null = Frank Jaeger = Gray Fox = Cyborg Ninja as seen above (the exoskeleton only increased Frank's strength and durability. His speed was always there, even as a kid Big Boss said he easily killed dozens of armed men with only a knife)

Then there's Gene, who's in another league of his own; dodging Gatling Gun fire while appearing to stand still.

Big Boss has plenty of experience with fast enemies; The Boss dodged a near point blank bullet after it was fired, The Fear could run on water, even Solid Snake had hypersonic reflexes, and as you can see above, Big Boss clearly has him beat when it comes to hand to hand.

(Just so you don't bring this up later, I want to clear this up: Solid Snake did kill Big Boss during Outer Heaven, but that was an aged BB vs Snake in his prime. As you can see above, when Solid Snake's accelerated aging kicked in and they were on a more even playing field, BB had no problems.

And yes, even in his old age Solid Snake had hypersonic reflexes, seeing and reacting to a Rail Gun blast that moved at mach 20)

#25 Posted by nick_hero22 (6948 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

All right I looked into the feat a little more and it seems snake did have rest when he meant Eva at the cave in the waterfall where he recovered his gear.

He took a nap. Is that really enough to disregard the feat? It's not like his wounds are going to heal overnight; if anything, that probably aggravated them even more. And considering the most medical attention he recieved was EVA handing him an eyepatch, it makes no difference.

Also are you sure that was a 300 feat fall? It wasn't really stated to be.

It was damn high I'll say that.

Like I said, average height a human can fall into water from without breaking bone is 90 feet. Snake suffered no injuries from this dive, and it was definately over 90 feet.

It's also worth mentioning that BB had a "fight" with the Sorrow immediately after, where he was forced to confront everyone he's ever killed, and literally feel their sorrow.

So, just saying, Snake has plenty of inner strength to go along with that outer, considering the damned Penance Stare of all things had no effect on him.

And again Volgin was holding back on snake....Snake didn't tank something harder than a rocket launcher. Volgin was interrogating him so he likely wouldn't kill snake as he need info.

Why would he decide to go easy on Snake when he's never showed anyone else any mercy? Volgin doesn't care about extracting info, EVA and Zero state as much, he just wants an excuse to torture people.

If you want more direct feats of Big Boss's endurance, there are plenty other examples of his superhuman ability: over the years he has,

  • Utilized a high speed drone while wearing only his field uniform, whereas the MiG pilots chasing him had to wear pressurized suits to survive in their aircraft;
  • Endured a battle against The Fury while the area they were in burned from the flames of the latter's rocket fuel-laced flamethrower;
  • Managed to embark on Operation Snake Eater and successfully complete his mission despite only a week earlier suffering numerous fatal injuries during the Virtuous Mission;
  • Twice survived a large fall into a body of water in Tselinoyarsk;
  • Survived the ICBMG's missile launch despite standing close to ground zero of the ignition blast;
  • Single-handedly lifted a garage door to allow himself entry to Peace Walker's hangar with his own bare hands, twice;
  • Sustained no injuried after falling off a mountain while chasing Metal Gear Peace Walker at what was implied to be a very large height, a fall that likewise killed The Boss's horse on impact;
  • Despite having been beaten to near death by Solid Snake while in his old age, Big Boss managed to escape Outer Heaven before the self destruct, and saved dozens of rebels and militiamen in the process
  • Survived the self destruct of Zanzibar Land;
  • Endured the effects of the second FOXDIE strain for approximately 15 minutes, while all others exposed died in seconds;

Big Boss has also gone through extensive torture at least once in every game he's appeared in. Cunningham goes as far as to state "This man is a former member of FOX. To him, this doesn't even qualify as torture. I was just saying hello."

Its more than just the traps that snake has to worry about but the way they are set up and the way black panther will set him up. He will lead snake to a specific area where he wants snake to be and he will fight him there. He will be putting snake into a position where snake will need to get his foot caught in a snare.

Fair enough, but there is still a flaw with the plan. While Black Panther is trying to play this by his rules on his turf, Snake will be doing the same. If anything, while he's crawling along the ground and comes across T'Challa's first trap along the water, he'll figure out his opponents plan (it is a pretty obvious plan, a hunter of Big Boss's skill and experience should be able to figure it out) and will plan accordingly.

So while BP is looking out to the water, waiting for his enemy to show up, Snake will be coming around from the other side to get behind T'Challa. From there, John has got it covered.

In secret invasion black panther was able to deduce when the super skrull switched powers/skill sets (he was fighting a skrull that had the powers of various street levelers and himself but he could only use 1 ability at a time) by determining the skrull had "tells".

Big Boss could of done the same. He did do the same actually. Huey directly states that Snake figured out the Pupa's attack patterns in seconds, compared to Panther taking a decent fight scene to detect the Skrull's.

Along with his superior strength I would say that black panther can force snake t0 move in a direction to a snare.

What makes you say Black Panther is stronger than Big Boss?

Anyways I'm not saying snake is an idiot but black panther is just smarter.

In most areas yes, Black Panther is smarter. But, that's like saying Mr. Fantastic is irrevocably smarter than Batman. Sure, Reed can build a mean time machine, but I seriously doubt his odds of escaping one of Joker's traps.

Same applies here. Big Boss won't win any science fair awards, but that's cool because he can get other people to do it for him.

Take Gene for example, the super fast artificial soldier I mentioned before. Gene was part of the Successor Project, which was designed to create the ultimate battlefield commander. As such, his voice was endowed with a special power that allows him "master the hearts of soldiers".

He's a Tao wannabe basically, he's good enough to convince an entire army to abandon their country and follow him instead, not to mention he literally talked a psychic into developing a split personality. Big Boss was not only smart enough to ignore his words, but ended up outalking Gene completely by getting his own soldiers on his side instead.

Snake has built up his own army, like, 5 times, and maintained absolute loyalty from them all.

The Boss of Victory

Snake is an incredible battle commander, and one of the greatest strategists around. And when it comes to battle tactics, on set improv, there is no one else like him.

Two words: CARDBOARD BOX!

In a bind and need a quick disguise? CARDBOARD BOX!

Need a place to keep your weapons? CARDBOARD BOX!

Is that dead body attracting too much attention and you need to stash it somewhere? CARDBOARD BOX!

Who else but Snake would jump inside a delivery truck, get inside a box, and watch as the dumbass guards deliver you to where you need to go?

A cardboard box has a million and one uses as they say, and Snake has figured out each and every one of them.

There's more to sneaking then just being quiet. Snake has developed other techniques to stay out of sight. Hiding in lockers, distracting a sentry with a playboy, killing your enemy with a poisonous snake, etc.

What does Punisher do when he runs out of bullets? He drops the clip and slides in a new one.

What does Snake do? He pockets the clip and uses it to distract a guard later.

These are the basics every soldier needs to know if he hopes to complete his mission, and Snake is the best there is as POS.

My point is, Big Boss is an excellent battle commander, and an incredible strategist. He can certainly match Black Panther in this regard, and in a no prep match, tactical thinking is all that matters.

From what you described Vulgin seems to enjoy torture. If he hit snake with the full force of a rocket launcher snake would be dead and he wouldn't get a chance to make him suffer for killing his lover.

Like it or not, RPGs have never had much of an effect on anyone in the Snake family. Liquid Snake, Big Boss's genetic clone, tanked being inside a helecopter as it exploded, ate about 9 Stinger Missiles, had his face smashed in by his brother, plummeted 50 feet onto solid ground, and still got up to take multiple gunshots, followed by flipping his jeep upside down at full speed, and then got up again ready for round 2.

It was only after FOXDIE took effect did Liquid die, and as I explained, Big Boss withstood the virus for 15 minutes; Liquid about 15 seconds.

Solid Snake has a similar wrap sheet, beating a 100 tonner Cyborg Ninja in hand to hand combat.

Pretty epic eh? Now let's see how Solid Snake measures up to his daddy.

CQC - Close Quarters Cuddles.

Black panther has jumped into a 30 foot cave without even making a sound, thing is the cave he jumped into was stated it would magnify sound.

Big Boss did that plenty of times, during the Peace Walker Incident and Operation Snake Eater. There are techniques you use to quiet your falls, people IRL can probably do that if they know what they're doing.

All though if I were to discuss reflexes I would bring up black panther dancing around wolverine who was trying to kill him (black panther thought it was a game), leaping inside sue storms force field before it could close (she has blocked lightning), and having spider-man compare black panthers agility to his own.

I would think Null can match Wolverine in speed, if not exceed him, and like I said Big Boss owned him when he threw away the guns and went H2H.

Null = Frank Jaeger = Gray Fox = Cyborg Ninja as seen above (the exoskeleton only increased Frank's strength and durability. His speed was always there, even as a kid Big Boss said he easily killed dozens of armed men with only a knife)

Then there's Gene, who's in another league of his own; dodging Gatling Gun fire while appearing to stand still.

Big Boss has plenty of experience with fast enemies; The Boss dodged a near point blank bullet after it was fired, The Fear could run on water, even Solid Snake had hypersonic reflexes, and as you can see above, Big Boss clearly has him beat when it comes to hand to hand.

(Just so you don't bring this up later, I want to clear this up: Solid Snake did kill Big Boss during Outer Heaven, but that was an aged BB vs Snake in his prime. As you can see above, when Solid Snake's accelerated aging kicked in and they were on a more even playing field, BB had no problems.

And yes, even in his old age Solid Snake had hypersonic reflexes, seeing and reacting to a Rail Gun blast that moved at mach 40)

I'm curious do you have any proof that Snake dodge the actual shot from the Railgun because he could have merely anticipated the shooters aim and what are its specifications in terms of its build.

#26 Posted by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

@nick_hero22 said:

I'm curious do you have any proof that Snake dodge the actual shot from the Railgun because he could have merely anticipated the shooters aim and what are its specifications in terms of its build.

He dodged it after the blast was fired. I use it all the time in debates because it's a pretty badass feat.

3:20

Hypersonic reflexes and beating 100 tonners in a fist fight, Solid Snake was still easily subdued by Big Boss as you can see above.

That's the reason I believe Big Boss holds the skill advantage over BP, Jashro is welcome to try and debate that claim though.

#27 Edited by jashro44 (22934 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: All right this is going to be a long post...

He took a nap. Is that really enough to disregard the feat? It's not like his wounds are going to heal overnight; if anything, that probably aggravated them even more. And considering the most medical attention he recieved was EVA handing him an eyepatch, it makes no difference.

How long did he rest for? Does it say? I haven't played the games so for all I know snake could have rested for days. Seems off how he has a cut along his face yet when he has his gear on the cut seems to be gone.

It was damn high I'll say that.

Like I said, average height a human can fall into water from without breaking bone is 90 feet. Snake suffered no injuries from this dive, and it was definately over 90 feet.

I don't believe that is a feat black panther cannot replicate. Captain america has jumped from greater heights.

And captain america has stated that him and black panther are equals in every way and that he is the equivalent of the wakandain super solider.

Here are some fights with captain america to prove they are at least equals.

It's also worth mentioning that BB had a "fight" with the Sorrow immediately after, where he was forced to confront everyone he's ever killed, and literally feel their sorrow.

So, just saying, Snake has plenty of inner strength to go along with that outer, considering the damned Penance Stare of all things had no effect on him.

Not really the same thing as physical pain. Black panther hasn't faced something like this so its speculation how well he would do.

Why would he decide to go easy on Snake when he's never showed anyone else any mercy? Volgin doesn't care about extracting info, EVA and Zero state as much, he just wants an excuse to torture people.

I never said go easy on snake. In fact I said the opposite. He wanted to make snake suffer. If he just punched his head off that would have been to quick of a death for snake.

If you want more direct feats of Big Boss's endurance, there are plenty other examples of his superhuman ability: over the years he has,

  • Utilized a high speed drone while wearing only his field uniform, whereas the MiG pilots chasing him had to wear pressurized suits to survive in their aircraft;
  • Endured a battle against The Fury while the area they were in burned from the flames of the latter's rocket fuel-laced flamethrower;
  • Managed to embark on Operation Snake Eater and successfully complete his mission despite only a week earlier suffering numerous fatal injuries during the Virtuous Mission;
  • Twice survived a large fall into a body of water in Tselinoyarsk;
  • Survived the ICBMG's missile launch despite standing close to ground zero of the ignition blast;
  • Single-handedly lifted a garage door to allow himself entry to Peace Walker's hangar with his own bare hands, twice;
  • Sustained no injuried after falling off a mountain while chasing Metal Gear Peace Walker at what was implied to be a very large height, a fall that likewise killed The Boss's horse on impact;
  • Despite having been beaten to near death by Solid Snake while in his old age, Big Boss managed to escape Outer Heaven before the self destruct, and saved dozens of rebels and militiamen in the process
  • Survived the self destruct of Zanzibar Land;
  • Endured the effects of the second FOXDIE strain for approximately 15 minutes, while all others exposed died in seconds;

Big Boss has also gone through extensive torture at least once in every game he's appeared in. Cunningham goes as far as to state "This man is a former member of FOX. To him, this doesn't even qualify as torture. I was just saying hello."

Impressive all though he can still get knocked out, killed, or affected by pressure points. Black panther knows where to hit to make it hurt.

Fair enough, but there is still a flaw with the plan. While Black Panther is trying to play this by his rules on his turf, Snake will be doing the same. If anything, while he's crawling along the ground and comes across T'Challa's first trap along the water, he'll figure out his opponents plan (it is a pretty obvious plan, a hunter of Big Boss's skill and experience should be able to figure it out) and will plan accordingly.

Well I believe I mentioned in a previous post that black panther will wait in the trees where he will observe things. If he sees the tall grass moving he is going to know something is up. If he notices it is heading towards his grass and he sees his trap doesn't spring up he will just "vanish" behind snake.

I realize that he needed his opponents to look away to do this but considering snake isn't going to see him right away I don't see why he will need a distraction.

So basically it will be a trap within a trap.

So while BP is looking out to the water, waiting for his enemy to show up, Snake will be coming around from the other side to get behind T'Challa. From there, John has got it covered.

As I mentioned before black panther, even without his enhanced senses has been able to sense kraven. A man who sneacked up on spider-man (spider-man has spider-sense so that isn't easy) and venom (venom is weak to sonics so his hearing has to be good) Black panther was able to determine kraven was following him.

Big Boss could of done the same. He did do the same actually. Huey directly states that Snake figured out the Pupa's attack patterns in seconds, compared to Panther taking a decent fight scene to detect the Skrull's.

Isn't pupa a machine? Thats not the same thing. Pupa was programmed to think a certain way. Black fought a sentient, thinking life form. One that was trained since birth to kill him. And it didn't take him a whole battle to deduce the skrull had tells. Only like 2 pages.

What makes you say Black Panther is stronger than Big Boss?

In most areas yes, Black Panther is smarter. But, that's like saying Mr. Fantastic is irrevocably smarter than Batman. Sure, Reed can build a mean time machine, but I seriously doubt his odds of escaping one of Joker's traps.

Same applies here. Big Boss won't win any science fair awards, but that's cool because he can get other people to do it for him.

Take Gene for example, the super fast artificial soldier I mentioned before. Gene was part of the Successor Project, which was designed to create the ultimate battlefield commander. As such, his voice was endowed with a special power that allows him "master the hearts of soldiers".

He's a Tao wannabe basically, he's good enough to convince an entire army to abandon their country and follow him instead, not to mention he literally talked a psychic into developing a split personality. Big Boss was not only smart enough to ignore his words, but ended up outalking Gene completely by getting his own soldiers on his side instead.

Snake has built up his own army, like, 5 times, and maintained absolute loyalty from them all.

Inspiring an army doesn't really mean your tactical. Martian Luther king did the same thing but do you believe he is qualified to lead our army? Besides snake doesn't get a chance to build up a army in this scenario so he needs to be alone in terms of tactics. As for what has black panther done in terms of tactics

I don't see what snake has done on this level of battle tactics.

The Boss of Victory

Snake is an incredible battle commander, and one of the greatest strategists around. And when it comes to battle tactics, on set improv, there is no one else like him.

Two words: CARDBOARD BOX!

In a bind and need a quick disguise? CARDBOARD BOX!

Need a place to keep your weapons? CARDBOARD BOX!

Is that dead body attracting too much attention and you need to stash it somewhere? CARDBOARD BOX!

Who else but Snake would jump inside a delivery truck, get inside a box, and watch as the dumbass guards deliver you to where you need to go?

A cardboard box has a million and one uses as they say, and Snake has figured out each and every one of them.

There's more to sneaking then just being quiet. Snake has developed other techniques to stay out of sight. Hiding in lockers, distracting a sentry with a playboy, killing your enemy with a poisonous snake, etc.

LOL Well there aren't many card board boxes in a jungle and if there were he would stick out pretty good. Not to mention black panther isn't comparable to a "dumbass guard." He wont be fooled like that.

Like it or not, RPGs have never had much of an effect on anyone in the Snake family. Liquid Snake, Big Boss's genetic clone, tanked being inside a helecopter as it exploded, ate about 9 Stinger Missiles, had his face smashed in by his brother, plummeted 50 feet onto solid ground, and still got up to take multiple gunshots, followed by flipping his jeep upside down at full speed, and then got up again ready for round 2.

Which game was this in? Was it in metal gear solid 4? Because I heard in that game people were enhanced with machines and also I always see the fight of liquid and solid snake fighting and there injecting each other with needles? You don't think this could have played a role?

It was only after FOXDIE took effect did Liquid die, and as I explained, Big Boss withstood the virus for 15 minutes; Liquid about 15 seconds.

This really doesn't apply here. Black panther isn't affecting big boss with a virus. Immunity to disease and taking physical pain are 2 different things.

Solid Snake has a similar wrap sheet, beating a 100 tonner Cyborg Ninja in hand to hand combat.

He seems to be malfunctioning. Anyways has he ever applied his strength towards punching power?

Pretty epic eh? Now let's see how Solid Snake measures up to his daddy.

  1. Snake in his prime is not the same thing as snake as an old man.
  2. How do we know that big boss in his prime is a better fighter than snake in his prime? Even assuming grey fox wasn't malfunctioning big boss was only able to stalemate him where as snake had an upper hand. Based off that seems like snake in his prime is a better fighter than big boss in his prime. Unless we are using big boss as an old man?

Big Boss did that plenty of times, during the Peace Walker Incident and Operation Snake Eater. There are techniques you use to quiet your falls, people IRL can probably do that if they know what they're doing.

Doesn't really matter point is black panther isn't going to make a sound when he is running around the jungle and stuff. Snake wont here him.

I would think Null can match Wolverine in speed, if not exceed him, and like I said Big Boss owned him when he threw away the guns and went H2H.

Why is grey fox faster than wolverine? Because he deflected bullets? Silver samurai does the same thing and hang chi was able to dodge his blade. Wolverine has curbstomped shang chi. And snake didn't embarrass Null in the fashion black panther did to wolverine where black panther was playing games against logan who was trying to kill him.

Null = Frank Jaeger = Gray Fox = Cyborg Ninja as seen above (the exoskeleton only increased Frank's strength and durability. His speed was always there, even as a kid Big Boss said he easily killed dozens of armed men with only a knife)

Then there's Gene, who's in another league of his own; dodging Gatling Gun fire while appearing to stand still.

Big Boss has plenty of experience with fast enemies; The Boss dodged a near point blank bullet after it was fired, The Fear could run on water, even Solid Snake had hypersonic reflexes, and as you can see above, Big Boss clearly has him beat when it comes to hand to hand.

(Just so you don't bring this up later, I want to clear this up: Solid Snake did kill Big Boss during Outer Heaven, but that was an aged BB vs Snake in his prime. As you can see above, when Solid Snake's accelerated aging kicked in and they were on a more even playing field, BB had no problems.

And yes, even in his old age Solid Snake had hypersonic reflexes, seeing and reacting to a Rail Gun blast that moved at mach 40)

Well we don't really know if black panther can dodge bullets that fast because comic books don't have epic graphics...They just stand still. We get hints of characters moving faster than the human eye can follow and them dodging bullets. But we don't really know if the shooter sees them as standing still when they are dodging them. Captain america has also dodged a point blank bullet after it was fired and black panther is at least as fast as him.

And it takes a rail gun 3 seconds to travel hundreds of feat IIRC and sanke was a good ditance away when he dodged. But anyways sue has blocked lightning with her force fields and black panther has been able to leap into them before she can close it. Speed of lightning >>>>Speed of a rail gun.

He dodged it after the blast was fired. I use it all the time in debates because it's a pretty badass feat.

3:20

Hypersonic reflexes and beating 100 tonners in a fist fight, Solid Snake was still easily subdued by Big Boss as you can see above.

That's the reason I believe Big Boss holds the skill advantage over BP, Jashro is welcome to try and debate that claim though.

Well black panther has been able to fight captain america and wolverine for starters who do have comparable feats the one listed for snake.

Here are some peak humans dodging bullets after they are fired. I all ready proved that black panther may be as fast as cap if not faster.

I think I all ready proved he is as fast as shang chi and cap if not faster so i wont go into that.

Here is black panther vs a blood lusted iron fist.

Deadpool Vs. Iron Fist

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy316....ai-DCP02-03.jpg

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy316....murai-DCP04.jpg

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy316....murai-DCP05.jpg

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy316....murai-DCP06.jpg

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy316....murai-DCP07.jpg

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy316....murai-DCP08.jpg

Deadpool Vs. Iron Fist, Again

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy316/mavfan626/ii.jpg

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy316/mavfan626/scan0019.jpg

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy316/mavfan626/scan0020.jpg

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy316/mavfan626/scan0021.jpg

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy316/mavfan626/scan0022.jpg

And here is deadpools recent showing against daken when he didn't have his healing factor

Deadpools pretty skilled...Lets see how well he does against black panthers rival Erik Killmonger.

Deadpool Vs. Killmonger Very important to stress this isn't black panther...

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy316/mavfan626/BlackPanther23p15.jpg

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy316/mavfan626/BlackPanther23p16.jpg

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy316/mavfan626/BlackPanther23p18.jpg

http://i803.photobucket.com/albums/yy316/mavfan626/BlackPanther23p20.jpg

Seems like deadpool is on iron fist and captain americas level and killmonger is on that level as well...Now lets see what killmongers upgrades allow him to do.

He killed a elephant by tackling it and also demolished an oak tree. Keep in mind this upgrade occurred after his fight with deadpool

Here is black panthers fight against killmonger (keep in mind killmonger has also studied black panthers moves making him that much more difficult to beat.

Remember the time Kraven beat daredevil and black widow? I would say black panther stalemating him is a huge feat...

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/1056160-kravenvddbw1_super.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y47/ebar0159/1056161-kravenvddbw2_super.jpg

Taskmaster taking on venom...And basically blitzing him (the same venom that dodged a hunting rifle from kraven)

Takes on spider-man.

And he is still nothing to black panther (yes this is the whole fight)

Black panther has also had better training than snake. Which should make him a better fighter.

Might know some styles from K'lunn.
States he studied every fighting style on the planet.

I would say black panther is a better fighter due to fighting opponents who are also very impressive, showing more and better technical knowledge, and having better training. Sorry for all the scans...

#28 Edited by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

Part 1. Part 2 up soon.

How long did he rest for? Does it say? I haven't played the games so for all I know snake could have rested for days. Seems off how he has a cut along his face yet when he has his gear on the cut seems to be gone.

Snake was on a tight schedule, the Shagohad was already completed by that time, so he couldn't rest for long or else it'd be activated (it ended up being activated anyway, but not through any fault of his own)

He had a snake for dinner then EVA gave him an eyepatch. She was totally up for some nuclear deterrance btw, if you know what I mean. She was more than ready for that Solid Snake to breech her base defenses and deliver it's nuclear payload directly into her Metal Gear RAXA. Big Boss can bring a girl to Outer Heaven like no other, after he's done with her, she won't be Peace Walking for a week.

Realistically speaking, sleeping on cold cave rock, even if it's only for a couple hours, would do nothing but further aggravate Jack's wounds. However, considering he seems pretty OK, that leads us to believe RPG punches didn't even really injure him that much at all!

That's the Chrysalis, a high tech flying AI attack chopper. Dodging chain guns, tracking missiles, and Railgun blasts, not to mention attack Cyphers deployed from the machine, Big Boss eventually destroyed it from the inside out. Skip to 9:05 to see Snake take a high dive; it took him nearly 10 seconds just to hit the ground, to give you an idea of how high up he was.

The Cocoon, about 500 feet tall, equipped with everything the Chrysalis was times 10 plus more, once again falls to Big Boss's might. 9:15, Big Boss jumps to the ground from the highest point of the machine, no probs.

After destroying Peace Walker (only the first of many times to come) Snake is in persuit, guiding his horse through a thick forest, dodging falling trees and missiles (3:10)

Then, at 5:20, the aformentioned falling off a mountain on his ass feat. Kills the horse on impact, but Big Boss is just like whatevs and climbs the mountain bare handed in seconds (badass battle cry)

He goes on to fight an army... again.

And I mean a literal army.

So, as you can see, Big Boss is not lacking in the strength department. Physically speaking, he's the strongest human in the entire Metal Gear Solid series. Ocelot dented steel with his fists and jumped 40 friggin feet in the air, Solid Snake can punch through 5 straight inches of solid concrete and wield the Railgun like a rifle, and The Boss can lug around 1,200 pounds for miles through the jungle without any strain (even Captain America, Black Panther's equal by your own admission, has only been shown to bench 1,100)

He can single handedly overcome the motor and lift a parking garage door open with ease; they usually get forklifts for that. Volgin tanks a military arsenal, C3 explosion, and multiple rockets to the face, yet a punch from Big Boss has him spitting up blood. Take a look below to see what Liquid Nitrogen is supposed to do,

Now skip to 0:51:15 to see what it does to Snake.

PROBLEM PHYSICS?

Those strength feats you posted for BP are very impressive, but I think a lot of them had to do with his skill more than anything. And that boulder was NOT 20 tons, :P not to mention it was already at the edge of the cliff so BP had an easier time. Chris Redfield did the same thing, not that he has anything to do with this debate.

Not really the same thing as physical pain. Black panther hasn't faced something like this so its speculation how well he would do.

It was worth mentioning, John posesses the will of a warrior. He won't be giving up anytime soon.

Well I believe I mentioned in a previous post that black panther will wait in the trees where he will observe things. If he sees the tall grass moving he is going to know something is up. If he notices it is heading towards his grass and he sees his trap doesn't spring up he will just "vanish" behind snake.

It's not that easy to spot Naked Snake. The jungle is his specialty. He's not going to cause a big ruckus with grass raving around.

Let's not forget, Solid Snake is Big Boss's clone son whom he taught everything he knows. Solid fares better in urban infiltration, the open battlefield is his dad's schtick. That said, even out of his element, Snake could do this,

(Just watch the first minute or so)

Old Snake directly states that Big Boss was always the better of the two at the outside stuff; that's why he needed Raiden to give him some pointers on hunting. So considering he didn't need a distraction like Black Panther did in that scan, imagine what the Big man is capable of. Sneaking up on invisible super soldiers was just the warm up.

(And yes, if you're allowed to use Captain America feats, then I'm allowed to use Solid Snake feats. At least Snake is Big Boss's clone, not just some guy who seems pretty similar to him, ala Steve Rogers)

As I mentioned before black panther, even without his enhanced senses has been able to sense kraven. A man who sneacked up on spider-man (spider-man has spider-sense so that isn't easy) and venom (venom is weak to sonics so his hearing has to be good) Black panther was able to determine kraven was following him.

Big Boss can eavesdrop on Ursula, and directly sneak up on Elisa, who two very powerful precogs. So I'm sure he can do that too.

Isn't pupa a machine? Thats not the same thing. Pupa was programmed to think a certain way. Black fought a sentient, thinking life form.

Pupa was an AI capable of high level strategic thinking and emotions. It was made from the same tech as Peace Walker, which sacrificed itself to prevent nuclear war.

Conversely, all Black Panther did was pick up on the Skrull's tells. Jack literally predicted what the Pupa would do before it did it, based on his knowledge of it's abilities and it's established tactics. More impressive IMO.

Snake also deduced Null's identity just based on his fighting style. The Boss owned Jack in their first fight, but as the game progressed, BB adapted his style until he was good enough to kill her. Ocelot learned CQC by watching Big Boss do it, but even though he was fighting a move-stealing Taskmaster-esque opponent, BB still stalemated him.

Black Panther has mastered some odd number of fighting styles, and saying he's anything but a top tier Marvel combatant is ludicrous. But Big Boss didn't just master a style, he created his own. That shows a higher level of innate combat skill.

5:20 to see Snake fuggin body slam Volgin, that one hit was hard enough to completely knock the wind out of the Colonel and keep him on the ground for the entire duration of Snake and the Boss's scuffle (keep watching to see Volgin beat the sh*t outta Snake. Brutal, 2 straight minutes of RPG punches. I doubt Volgin was holding back much, he literally couldn't KO Snake, try as he might)

He also reveals that black panther kidnapped kingpins lover from right under his nose (is that a better stealth feat?).

Major Raikov was Volgin's lover. He was literally just waltzing around the middle of the facilty, when Snake ghosts right through, kills him, and takes his identity (that's why he's wearing the mask in the above video, he was posing as the Major to gain access to the higher levels of the facility)

Volgin, for all his brutishness, was smart enough to climb the military ladder all the way to commanding his own army. He planned to overthrow Kruschev during the Cold War and place his own figure heads in office who he could control)

LOL Well there aren't many card board boxes in a jungle and if there were he would stick out pretty good.

Just an example of BB's improv skills.

Please wait for part 2

#29 Edited by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

Part 2

Which game was this in? Was it in metal gear solid 4? Because I heard in that game people were enhanced with machines and also I always see the fight of liquid and solid snake fighting and there injecting each other with needles? You don't think this could have played a role?

Nope. Happened way back during the Shadow Moses Incident.

8:10

From my experience, Snake is the quick one, Big Boss is the strong one, and Liquid is the... british one. Solidus is just kinda there.

Anyway, as you can see, the explosion was large enough that it rose all the way above the tower, but Liquid just tanks that sh*t and comes back for more (he couldn't of ejected or he'd be cut up by the rotor blades; Snake mentions exactly that in game)

Later on he takes about 9 Stingers to the face, and is still inside REX's cockpit as the mech explodes. But even with all that, Liquid comes out with mere scratches,

Funny thing is, 5 minutes earlier, Liquid deadpanned that he wouldn't survive a fall off of REX.

...Guess what he does?

Yup. He survives.

It's worth noting however, that neither Snake nor Liquid were enhanced in anyway during MGS4.

This really doesn't apply here. Black panther isn't affecting big boss with a virus. Immunity to disease and taking physical pain are 2 different things.

I don't see your point. It's just another example of Big Boss's unnatural endurance, same as enduring the air pressure of high altitudes while wearing combat fatigues, while everyone around him is decked out in pressure suits.

He seems to be malfunctioning. Anyways has he ever applied his strength towards punching power?

The suit wasn't manlfunctioning. Gray Fox was. I can post the CODEC conversation where Naomi explains how he's not quite right in the head, but I don't think it's neccesary.

He had sporadic episodes of great pain at random intervals throughout the game, but it's quite obvious he was doing ok during the fight. If the suit was malfunctioning, he wouldn't be catching giant robot legs or jumping around faster than our brains can process. If you want striking strength, then the Cyborg Ninja easily sent a slab of concrete rocketing through the air with a backflip kick while midair, with absolutely no leverage, which is pretty friggin hard to do. I don't see why I need to provide striking feats though, when that scan-ageddon you provided for BP's strength is mostly just him tossing things around or wrestling animals.

How do we know that big boss in his prime is a better fighter than snake in his prime? Even assuming grey fox wasn't malfunctioning big boss was only able to stalemate him where as snake had an upper hand. Based off that seems like snake in his prime is a better fighter than big boss in his prime. Unless we are using big boss as an old man?

While it's true that Big Boss may of gotten more skilled as his life went along, the same holds true for Snake. So if Old Big Boss can beat Old Solid Snake, then logically Young Big Boss can beat Young Solid Snake as well, since BB fought him when he was at his most experienced level; over 9 years of training compared to when he fought the Cyborg Ninja.

And Big Boss never stalemated Gray Fox, the fight was interrupted. When Jack decided tothrow away his weapons and go H2H, he beat Null pretty darn easily.

Doesn't really matter point is black panther isn't going to make a sound when he is running around the jungle and stuff. Snake wont here him.

That goes both ways.

Why is grey fox faster than wolverine? Because he deflected bullets? Silver samurai does the same thing and hang chi was able to dodge his blade. Wolverine has curbstomped shang chi.

As flawed as that logic is (dodging one strike from Silver Samurai doesn't make Shang-Chi anywhere near faster, and beating Shang-Chi doesn't make Wolverine faster than him) that scan only showed Silver Samurai deflecting handgun bullets from a single gunmen. Null was taking on an entire unit of soldiers armed with Assault Rifles and barely even noticed them. Safe to say he should be quicker than Silver Samurai, and probably at the very least equal to Wolverine, considering the story Big Boss told us leads us to believe that Frank Jaeger was doing that stuff before he hit puberty.

Well we don't really know if black panther can dodge bullets that fast because comic books don't have epic graphics...They just stand still. We get hints of characters moving faster than the human eye can follow and them dodging bullets. But we don't really know if the shooter sees them as standing still when they are dodging them.

It's not that simple. With my pretty graphics and video motion, it might seem like I have the advantage. But there are plenty of disadvantages too, such as...

And it takes a rail gun 3 seconds to travel hundreds of feat IIRC and sanke was a good ditance away when he dodged.

That.

It doesn't take a Railgun 3 seconds to travel a hundred feet; mach 20 projectiles usually get there a bit quicker then that. It may seem like it took three seconds, but if the video wasn't slowed down and actually went in real time, the player wouldn't know wtf just happened. As such, the video has to be slowed down, giving the impression that it wasn't as fast as it was.

That's why it should be easier to debate for comic characters, contrary to popular belief. There are other examples, but now's not the time for that.

Point is, the scene was slowed down to Snake's perception. Snake was looking in the direction of the blast before it was fired, and managed to see and react to it (obviously he couldn't go by sound; it travels faster than that, and it's clear he only moved after it was fired)

Black panther has also had better training than snake. Which should make him a better fighter.

Snake actually has some of the most elite training a person can get in his world, being the personal disciple of The Boss since the age of 14. The Boss was the daughter of a high ranking Philosophers member, Philosophers being the Patriot's predecessors, and as such, recieved the best training the world could literally offer her. Whatever assortnment of Shamon Monks, Military Officers, or Japanese Ninjas the world had, all it took was a snap of her fingers and the Joy had a knew teacher.

Jack was then taught everything she knows plus more. In terms of training, I doubt Black Panther has much of an advantage.

I would say black panther is a better fighter due to fighting opponents who are also very impressive, showing more and better technical knowledge, and having better training.

If you wanna talk technical, Big Boss's skill comes from more than just training. Black Panther may have mastered some odd number of fighting styles, but Snake literally created his own personal one. To actually create and master your own unique fighting style shows a high level of innate fighting knowledge. Big Boss is a born warrior, he literally has fighting ingrained into his genes, and as such his technical knowledge of fighting mechanics is in a class of it's own. That's why Bane is almost as good as Batman, even though he recieved no training, because he was smart enough to come up with his own style and thus is a natural fighter.

Same goes for Snake, however unlike Bane, he actually does have highly elite training to go along with everything innate.

Now Big Boss may not have knowledge of pressure points, but a CQC master like him knows something just as helpful; holds, throws, and slams. If Snake gets Black Panther in his grasp, T'Challa is screwed.

Getting into a grapple, Snake will most definately have the upper hand. It's not at all easy to escape the hold of a CQC master.

Black Panther has indeed taken on impressive foes, but so has Big Boss. The Cobra Unit is Captain America's equivalent, an elite combat unit who won World War II. Big Boss stomped every one of them.

Revolver Ocelot broke the world record for double crosses, at one point being a quintuple agent. He also ushered in the world's first complete global cease fire in human history, and manipulated the entire cast of MGS4 into destroying the Patriots for him (the Patriots are the all knowing, all encompassing global organization that dictates everything that happens in the world)

When Ocelot starts fingerbanging helicopters at 5:40, you know sh*t just got serious.

Volgin we've been over, RPG punches and the most elite military grade training, Big Boss had him coughing up blood.

Snake takes on tanks and attack choppers like canon fodder - hell, the guys Big Boss trains in MSF take on tanks and attack choppers like canon fodder! Entire combat batallions fall to the legendary soldier's might, and no amount of superpowers is going to change that.

Python was literally designed to be the anti-Snake; he's completely bulletproof and his cryosuit makes CQC impossible, yet not even Mr. Freeze was a match for Snake.

Null and Gene, both move faster than bullets and are gentically engineered super soldiers, and then there's the AI Weapons Snake destroyed in Peace Walker.

Now in terms of power, Black Panther does not take on anyone tougher than Big Boss does. Problem is, fighting guys like Deadpool and Captain America seems more impressive on the surface than guys like Gene and Volgin, because nobody knows the guys I'm talking about.

But trust me, superior enemies is no advantage to Black Panther. Hell, the Boss literally tanked cosmic radiation and crash landing her ship onto solid land all the way from the exosphere. Is that better than Cap jumping from helicopters?

It's also worth noting, though you provided a sh*t ton of combat scans for BP to show his skill, he had full gear in almost every one of them. A Vibranium battle suit can usually help to tip the odds in your favor, but he won't have that here.

#30 Posted by jashro44 (22934 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

He had a snake for dinner then EVA gave him an eyepatch. She was totally up for some nuclear deterrance btw, if you know what I mean. She was more than ready for that Solid Snake to breech her base defenses and deliver it's nuclear payload directly into her Metal Gear RAXA. Big Boss can bring a girl to Outer Heaven like no other, after he's done with her, she won't be Peace Walking for a week.

Turn it into what ever contest you want black panther is going to win.

That's the Chrysalis, a high tech flying AI attack chopper. Dodging chain guns, tracking missiles, and Railgun blasts, not to mention attack Cyphers deployed from the machine, Big Boss eventually destroyed it from the inside out. Skip to 9:05 to see Snake take a high dive; it took him nearly 10 seconds just to hit the ground, to give you an idea of how high up he was.The Cocoon, about 500 feet tall, equipped with everything the Chrysalis was times 10 plus more, once again falls to Big Boss's might. 9:15, Big Boss jumps to the ground from the highest point of the machine, no probs.

As impressive as this feat is I don't think it is as impressive as caps jump from air planes

After destroying Peace Walker (only the first of many times to come) Snake is in persuit, guiding his horse through a thick forest, dodging falling trees and missiles (3:10)

Then, at 5:20, the aformentioned falling off a mountain on his ass feat. Kills the horse on impact, but Big Boss is just like whatevs and climbs the mountain bare handed in seconds (badass battle cry)

He goes on to fight an army... again.

And I mean a literal army.

Well snake doesn't really get a horse here and all though surviving the fall is impressive the horse wasn't really dead. at 6:10 you see him twitching.

So, as you can see, Big Boss is not lacking in the strength department. Physically speaking, he's the strongest human in the entire Metal Gear Solid series. Ocelot dented steel with his fists and jumped 40 friggin feet in the air, Solid Snake can punch through 5 straight inches of solid concrete and wield the Railgun like a rifle, and The Boss can lug around 1,200 pounds for miles through the jungle without any strain (even Captain America, Black Panther's equal by your own admission, has only been shown to bench 1,100)

Cap has knocked downa steal door while weakened so black panther can do that to, Wolverine has jumped high enough to decapitate sentinels before and wolverine isn't that much stronger than black panther if at all, Black panther can punch dinosaurs and hurt them, wielding the rail gun is cool but black panther can lift his throne chair which is speculated to weigh around a ton, Captain america has lugged around a supply cart when the axle broke off before. And I said black panther was at least equal to captain america (cap is the one that stated it).

He can single handedly overcome the motor and lift a parking garage door open with ease; they usually get forklifts for that. Volgin tanks a military arsenal, C3 explosion, and multiple rockets to the face, yet a punch from Big Boss has him spitting up blood. Take a look below to see what Liquid Nitrogen is supposed to do,

Black panther can hold open a 20 foot long alligators mouth open (scans in my previous post).

After eight days and testing 60 subjects, Erickson and Vliet recorded a bite with 2,125 pounds of force from a 665-pound, 12-foot American alligator.-------

Taken from here:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/03/020328073615.htm

Now imagine how much force a 20 foot alligator can bite with. That is well over a ton and nearing 2 tons. Cap has also tanked gambits explosion which even mushroom clouded and came out without a scratch (only his cloths were destroyed all though considering his cloths were the explosion...) and black panther can hurt him just fine

As for your liquid nitrogen showing black panther isn't going to freeze him.

Those strength feats you posted for BP are very impressive, but I think a lot of them had to do with his skill more than anything. And that boulder was NOT 20 tons, :P not to mention it was already at the edge of the cliff so BP had an easier time. Chris Redfield did the same thing, not that he has anything to do with this debate.

I recall someone stating the boulder looks like it was 20 tons in another thread so I just went with that since all he is doing is pushing it. All though still it is a lot bigger than the one chris pushed and not nearly as round and judging by the amount of panels it took him it seems like he did it in less time to. The only feat that may have had to do with skill would be knocking out 10 tonner man ape. Besides that there pretty much all lifting except for the scans which show black panther decapitating robots and causing a mini crater in the ground.

(Just watch the first minute or so)

Old Snake directly states that Big Boss was always the better of the two at the outside stuff; that's why he needed Raiden to give him some pointers on hunting. So considering he didn't need a distraction like Black Panther did in that scan, imagine what the Big man is capable of. Sneaking up on invisible super soldiers was just the warm up.

You can't really compare fodder to black panther. Its like me saying that because black panther sneaked up on a hand ninja in a urban environment he could sneak up on big boss in a jungle. Not saying it isn't impressive but I don't think its a feat that black panther can't replicate.

(And yes, if you're allowed to use Captain America feats, then I'm allowed to use Solid Snake feats. At least Snake is Big Boss's clone, not just some guy who seems pretty similar to him, ala Steve Rogers)

I only brought up cap because you brought up liquid snake tanking a helicopter blast to show big boss could do the same thing.

Big Boss can eavesdrop on Ursula, and directly sneak up on Elisa, who two very powerful precogs. So I'm sure he can do that too.

At around 3:20 she says her visions don't always come true. So She probably just didn't see snake coming. My understanding is Usala is Elisas equal so it makes sense snake can sneak up on her.

Pupa was an AI capable of high level strategic thinking and emotions. It was made from the same tech as Peace Walker, which sacrificed itself to prevent nuclear war.

Conversely, all Black Panther did was pick up on the Skrull's tells. Jack literally predicted what the Pupa would do before it did it, based on his knowledge of it's abilities and it's established tactics. More impressive IMO.

I disagree. Even you yourself said snake was able to determine pupas moves based on his established tactics. Black panther determines when the skrull was indestructible in what parts of his body by reading his body language.

Snake also deduced Null's identity just based on his fighting style. The Boss owned Jack in their first fight, but as the game progressed, BB adapted his style until he was good enough to kill her. Ocelot learned CQC by watching Big Boss do it, but even though he was fighting a move-stealing Taskmaster-esque opponent, BB still stalemated him.

Wasn't this because he saw Null before? Also didn't the boss die because bombs were dropped on her? Ocelot maybe similar to taskmaster but black panther wrecked taskmaster (the scan is above)

Black Panther has mastered some odd number of fighting styles, and saying he's anything but a top tier Marvel combatant is ludicrous. But Big Boss didn't just master a style, he created his own. That shows a higher level of innate combat skill.

Creating a style isn't always better than studying a style. How do we know CQC is any better than say Judo? Or boxing? Or karate? I mean spider-man created his own style and he is far from top tier in terms of skill. Also black panther has created his own style

This is from an old hand book entry and it says that black panthers fighting style doesn't belong a established martial arts discipline and uses a series of cat like stances, moves and blows. So black panther has also created his own fighting style. So big boss doesn't have the edge here either.

5:20 to see Snake fuggin body slam Volgin, that one hit was hard enough to completely knock the wind out of the Colonel and keep him on the ground for the entire duration of Snake and the Boss's scuffle (keep watching to see Volgin beat the sh*t outta Snake. Brutal, 2 straight minutes of RPG punches. I doubt Volgin was holding back much, he literally couldn't KO Snake, try as he might)

Not bad. All though Volgin seems to be caught off guard to me. And the video kind of supports my point I made above. Volgin asks the boss what kind of style that is and her response is CQC is a close quarters basics at about 6:33. And it also supports my point that Volgin wanted snake to suffer before he died and wasn't hitting him with RPG punches either at 6:50.

Major Raikov was Volgin's lover. He was literally just waltzing around the middle of the facilty, when Snake ghosts right through, kills him, and takes his identity (that's why he's wearing the mask in the above video, he was posing as the Major to gain access to the higher levels of the facility)

Volgin, for all his brutishness, was smart enough to climb the military ladder all the way to commanding his own army. He planned to overthrow Kruschev during the Cold War and place his own figure heads in office who he could control)

Impressive all though Snake had guides to get into Volgins base right? Like Eva told him to crawl through the sewers or something like that? Black panther found his own way into shadow land.

8:10

From my experience, Snake is the quick one, Big Boss is the strong one, and Liquid is the... british one. Solidus is just kinda there.

Anyway, as you can see, the explosion was large enough that it rose all the way above the tower, but Liquid just tanks that sh*t and comes back for more (he couldn't of ejected or he'd be cut up by the rotor blades; Snake mentions exactly that in game)

Later on he takes about 9 Stingers to the face, and is still inside REX's cockpit as the mech explodes. But even with all that, Liquid comes out with mere scratches,

In all honesty I'm not sure if I can match that feat. All though black panther seems to be stronger and in addition to that he also knows where to hit to make it hurt. Imagine a haymaker to a nerve center which can affect luke cage? He managed to hurt a guy just by slightly tapping on there ears, now imagine how devastating a hay-maker would be from black panther in that area? He also hurt someone by poking them with a finger to the chest, again imagine a hay-maker to that area? Point being black panthers striking feats mixed in with his skill means Big boss is going to be in some serious pain and taking serious damage. Not to mention black panther has a knife as well. So he will more likely go for more vital areas like the throat and such.

I don't see your point. It's just another example of Big Boss's unnatural endurance, same as enduring the air pressure of high altitudes while wearing combat fatigues, while everyone around him is decked out in pressure suits.

Black panther isn't drugging him. I don't know how big boss managed to resist dying of the drug but this just tells me big boss has a hell of an immune system.

The suit wasn't manlfunctioning. Gray Fox was. I can post the CODEC conversation where Naomi explains how he's not quite right in the head, but I don't think it's neccesary.

He had sporadic episodes of great pain at random intervals throughout the game, but it's quite obvious he was doing ok during the fight. If the suit was malfunctioning, he wouldn't be catching giant robot legs or jumping around faster than our brains can process. If you want striking strength, then the Cyborg Ninja easily sent a slab of concrete rocketing through the air with a backflip kick while midair, with absolutely no leverage, which is pretty friggin hard to do. I don't see why I need to provide striking feats though, when that scan-ageddon you provided for BP's strength is mostly just him tossing things around or wrestling animals.

At 8:33 his suit is electrifying and it gets fuzzy at 9:13. And I brought up multiple hitting feats for black panther which included decapitating robots, Knocking out man ape, causing a mini crater in the ground. If you need more than here

Not to mention that technical knowledge.

While it's true that Big Boss may of gotten more skilled as his life went along, the same holds true for Snake. So if Old Big Boss can beat Old Solid Snake, then logically Young Big Boss can beat Young Solid Snake as well, since BB fought him when he was at his most experienced level; over 9 years of training compared to when he fought the Cyborg Ninja.

How do we know snake improved as much as big boss did? How do we know big boss didn't train more or harder than snake did as they got older?

And Big Boss never stalemated Gray Fox, the fight was interrupted. When Jack decided tothrow away his weapons and go H2H, he beat Null pretty darn easily.

I consider that a stalemate. They fought and neither fighter got the upper hand on the other and the fight never came to a conclusion where either had the edge. And does null have H2H feats? For all we know null is just not that good at hand to hand in comparison to his sword fighting skill. An example would be how batman owned ras al ghual in hand to hand but they usually stalemate when they have a sword fight.

That goes both ways.

Fair enough.

As flawed as that logic is (dodging one strike from Silver Samurai doesn't make Shang-Chi anywhere near faster, and beating Shang-Chi doesn't make Wolverine faster than him) that scan only showed Silver Samurai deflecting handgun bullets from a single gunmen. Null was taking on an entire unit of soldiers armed with Assault Rifles and barely even noticed them. Safe to say he should be quicker than Silver Samurai, and probably at the very least equal to Wolverine, considering the story Big Boss told us leads us to believe that Frank Jaeger was doing that stuff before he hit puberty.

Its the same logic as snake in his prime going hand to hand with cyborg ninja, Big boss beating snake when they were both old so by logic big boss in his prime can beat cyborg ninja. And he needs to be a lot faster than wolverine to be faster than black panther.

It's not that simple. With my pretty graphics and video motion, it might seem like I have the advantage. But there are plenty of disadvantages too, such as...

And it takes a rail gun 3 seconds to travel hundreds of feat IIRC and sanke was a good ditance away when he dodged.

That.

It doesn't take a Railgun 3 seconds to travel a hundred feet; mach 20 projectiles usually get there a bit quicker then that. It may seem like it took three seconds, but if the video wasn't slowed down and actually went in real time, the player wouldn't know wtf just happened. As such, the video has to be slowed down, giving the impression that it wasn't as fast as it was.

That's why it should be easier to debate for comic characters, contrary to popular belief. There are other examples, but now's not the time for that.

Point is, the scene was slowed down to Snake's perception. Snake was looking in the direction of the blast before it was fired, and managed to see and react to it (obviously he couldn't go by sound; it travels faster than that, and it's clear he only moved after it was fired)

Fair enough all though the point is silver samurai could look like he is standing still as well. We just can't tell because its a comic and they don't move.

Snake actually has some of the most elite training a person can get in his world, being the personal disciple of The Boss since the age of 14. The Boss was the daughter of a high ranking Philosophers member, Philosophers being the Patriot's predecessors, and as such, recieved the best training the world could literally offer her. Whatever assortnment of Shamon Monks, Military Officers, or Japanese Ninjas the world had, all it took was a snap of her fingers and the Joy had a knew teacher.

Jack was then taught everything she knows plus more. In terms of training, I doubt Black Panther has much of an advantage.

Is it actually stated on screen he has had this training or are we assuming things?

If you wanna talk technical, Big Boss's skill comes from more than just training. Black Panther may have mastered some odd number of fighting styles, but Snake literally created his own personal one. To actually create and master your own unique fighting style shows a high level of innate fighting knowledge. Big Boss is a born warrior, he literally has fighting ingrained into his genes, and as such his technical knowledge of fighting mechanics is in a class of it's own. That's why Bane is almost as good as Batman, even though he recieved no training, because he was smart enough to come up with his own style and thus is a natural fighter.

Black panther has also created his own style as mentioned above. And I disagree creating a style is better than mastering one. The boss herself said CQC was basic forms of close quarters combat. How do we know its better than Judo, boxing, or karate?

I also disagree bane is as skilled as batman or even on his level. Bane is stronger and more durable and also is fast for a man his size. Not to mention he broke batmans back so I would think that batman being afraid of bane (it has been stated multiple times batman is afraid of bane due to the hole back breaker deal) plays a role in there battles.

Same goes for Snake, however unlike Bane, he actually does have highly elite training to go along with everything innate.

Same goes for black panther except he has also studied every fighting style on the planet along with styles from the ancient city of kung-fu.

Now Big Boss may not have knowledge of pressure points, but a CQC master like him knows something just as helpful; holds, throws, and slams. If Snake gets Black Panther in his grasp, T'Challa is screwed.

Black panther has escaped holds before. He was once held down by beast who is stronger than him and he escaped. He was also held down by 2 guys and with no leverage he tossed one over his head using his skill and had his feet wrapped around the other guys neck. Not to mention I still say black panther is stronger.

Getting into a grapple, Snake will most definately have the upper hand. It's not at all easy to escape the hold of a CQC master.

I don't know about that. Black panther is stronger and he can him self knows a thing or 2 about holds.

Black Panther has indeed taken on impressive foes, but so has Big Boss. The Cobra Unit is Captain America's equivalent, an elite combat unit who won World War II. Big Boss stomped every one of them.

Captain america has also beaten super soldiers when he himself was in the body of a 90 pound cancer patient. Black panther has also stomped hand ninjas which are the deadliest assassins on the planet. He had to beat his uncle syan to get the title of black panther (Syan being the black panther would make him the best warrior in all of wakanda) and black panther beat him without his enhancements as well.

Revolver Ocelot broke the world record for double crosses, at one point being a quintuple agent. He also ushered in the world's first complete global cease fire in human history, and manipulated the entire cast of MGS4 into destroying the Patriots for him (the Patriots are the all knowing, all encompassing global organization that dictates everything that happens in the world)

What does this have to do with skill?

Volgin we've been over, RPG punches and the most elite military grade training, Big Boss had him coughing up blood.

Black panther beat kanark, the greatest martial artist of the inhumans race twice.

But here is his fights with black panther he takes him out by being fast enough to hit him (kanark later commented black panthers speed gave him an edge) and by knowing where to hit him to make his blows hurt.

Here are some feats for kanark

Snake takes on tanks and attack choppers like canon fodder - hell, the guys Big Boss trains in MSF take on tanks and attack choppers like canon fodder! Entire combat batallions fall to the legendary soldier's might, and no amount of superpowers is going to change that.

So does daredevil. And yet he stated he couldn't fight black panther head on and had to find a way to take him from surprise...

NOTE:the daredevil scans could be out of order as it got messed up when I was uploading to my gallery.

Python was literally designed to be the anti-Snake; he's completely bulletproof and his cryosuit makes CQC impossible, yet not even Mr. Freeze was a match for Snake.

How did snake beat him if CQC was impossible? Also black panther has faced his fair share of anti-hims. I all ready showed his fight against kill monger and white wolf.

Now in terms of power, Black Panther does not take on anyone tougher than Big Boss does. Problem is, fighting guys like Deadpool and Captain America seems more impressive on the surface than guys like Gene and Volgin, because nobody knows the guys I'm talking about.

Big boss fights enemies better than iron man, hulk and namor? Also snakes enemies may be powerful but I think black panthers are more skilled.

Null and Gene, both move faster than bullets and are gentically engineered super soldiers, and then there's the AI Weapons Snake destroyed in Peace Walker.

I don't believe they are faster than bullets. They are impressive but I don't believe deflecting bullets makes you as fast as it. I can block a base ball but if you asked me to outrun one I probably couldn't.

But trust me, superior enemies is no advantage to Black Panther. Hell, the Boss literally tanked cosmic radiation and crash landing her ship onto solid land all the way from the exosphere. Is that better than Cap jumping from helicopters?

Is that it in the video? Because thats not what I'm seeing...Anyways black panther 1 shotted kanark who has taken hits from gorgon and black bolt before. How? Skill (knowing where to hit to make things hurt). He also effected luke cage with pressure points as well. Another example would be wolverine taking kid gladiator out with a pressure point. Skill allows people to take super durable people out all the time. I'm not saying he will 1 shot snake but he can definitely take snake out.

#31 Edited by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio
As impressive as this feat is I don't think it is as impressive as caps jump from air planes

I disagree. We get a clear view of Snake falling several hundred feet casually, but the Cap scans are a bit more ambiguous as to exactly how high up he is.

The best indication we have is his feet going through the rock and trashing the car, but a 200+ pound man doesn't really need to gain that much velocity to do those things.

At most I'd say they're equal. Snake has also jumped over 30 feet straight up into the air, again same as Cap, not to mention the line between land and water blurs seriously when you're 500 feet up, and Snake took two falls of that height in MGS3.

Cap has knocked downa steal door while weakened so black panther can do that to, Wolverine has jumped high enough to decapitate sentinels before and wolverine isn't that much stronger than black panther if at all, Black panther can punch dinosaurs and hurt them, wielding the rail gun is cool but black panther can lift his throne chair which is speculated to weigh around a ton, Captain america has lugged around a supply cart when the axle broke off before. And I said black panther was at least equal to captain america (cap is the one that stated it).

Cap didn't break through the door though, he just knocked it off it's hinges. Not unimpressive, but easier than it sounds.

He also struggled quite a bit with just that.

Ocelot has jumped from ground level to Metal Gear RAYS cockpit, and Big Boss up to Peace Walker's AI Pod, both of which are taller than your average Sentinel.

And wielding a Rail Gun with your bare hands is harder than you think it is. That thing packs the power of a tank turret with recoil to match; that's a lot more than one ton. And Old Snake destroyed a battalion of Gekkos with it while dodging bullets and snare wires

all in his old age, that's a lot better than lifting the throne and supply cart. Snake even went so far as to resist a Gekko pulling him in when snagged by a snare, something that not even Raiden could do. And Big Boss was stronger than Snake!

If you're so insistent on using Cap feats, then by all means, Solid Snake in his prime can catch a 200 pound Meryl in his arms when she jumps from the top of Metal Gear REX. So that's 200 pounds, given 40 feet to gain velocity, well past 1,000 pounds.

Snake bungee jumped from the top of the Washington Bridge all the way down to a passing ship below, landing hard enough to destroy the Stealth Camo he was wearing, but taking no damage himself.

With the Metal Gear Mk. III in his arms adding an extra 20-50 pounds, Snake can easily withstand the G-Force output of being catapulted five stories into the air when jumping ship over to Arsenal Gear; again, in his old age. Then he crashes down and is still fine enough to tank some radiation and fight an army, while having a seizure no less.

Revolver Ocelot tanked a point blank C4 explosion, and The Boss survived being rocketed into outer space with no heat/radiation shields, then crashing down all the way from the exosphere

Big Boss was stronger then them all.

When it comes to raw strength, there's nothing to say Black Panther is superior than Big Boss.

Black panther can hold open a 20 foot long alligators mouth open (scans in my previous post).

I didn't wanna bring this up, but Big Boss caught Metal Gear ZEKE's leg at one point, much to the astonishment of Paz.

It was f*cking dumb though, so don't even mention it.

Cap has also tanked gambits explosion which even mushroom clouded and came out without a scratch (only his cloths were destroyed all though considering his cloths were the explosion...) and black panther can hurt him just fine

Evens out with Ocelot tanking a C4 explosion at point blank; the C4 actually made a bigger boom so I might say it was more impressive.

5:30

As for your liquid nitrogen showing black panther isn't going to freeze him.

Just an example of Big Boss's endurance. I can say that Snake isn't gonna throw BP from a helicopter, and that would make all the Cap scans you posted null as well.

At around 3:20 she says her visions don't always come true. So She probably just didn't see snake coming. My understanding is Usala is Elisas equal so it makes sense snake can sneak up on her.

You really do your research :P

No, Elisa and Ursala are the same person. Gene talked a split personality into them so he could manipulate her; Ursula got the power at the expense of her humanity, while Elisa maintained her humanity but became weak.

The girls later go on to explain the entire MGS story in a prediction, so Ursula is indeed powerful. But Snake was just so subtle in his approach that she didn't see him coming.

Wasn't this because he saw Null before? Also didn't the boss die because bombs were dropped on her? Ocelot maybe similar to taskmaster but black panther wrecked taskmaster (the scan is above)

Big Boss first met Frank Jaeger in 1966, if I remember correctly. Years later when they meet again, Snake deduces who he is, because his fighting style was similar to the boy he met years ago.

No, Big Boss killed her then the area they were in was nuked.

And any instance of Black Panther wrecking Taskmaster is an inconsistency, considering Taskmaster can fight Bucky and Captain America at the same time.

Creating a style isn't always better than studying a style. How do we know CQC is any better than say Judo? Or boxing? Or karate? I mean spider-man created his own style and he is far from top tier in terms of skill. Also black panther has created his own style

It's just a showing of his technical knowledge of fighting mechanics. He's a natural.

This is from an old hand book entry and it says that black panthers fighting style doesn't belong a established martial arts discipline and uses a series of cat like stances, moves and blows. So black panther has also created his own fighting style. So big boss doesn't have the edge here either.

That's not the same. Black Panther has learned numerous styles, and incorporated them all into his own signature style.

Big Boss literally created one from the ground up.

Impressive all though Snake had guides to get into Volgins base right? Like Eva told him to crawl through the sewers or something like that? Black panther found his own way into shadow land.

Snake was airdropped into the middle of Russia; EVA gave him directions to the base, but she can't guide him through it, telling him how to avoid guards and stay out of sight.

Imagine a haymaker to a nerve center which can affect luke cage? He managed to hurt a guy just by slightly tapping on there ears, now imagine how devastating a hay-maker would be from black panther in that area? He also hurt someone by poking them with a finger to the chest, again imagine a hay-maker to that area? Point being black panthers striking feats mixed in with his skill means Big boss is going to be in some serious pain and taking serious damage. Not to mention black panther has a knife as well. So he will more likely go for more vital areas like the throat and such.

Black Panther knows pressure points and such, but Big Boss can counter that by knowing forms of holds, throws, and grapples. Big Boss may not know where to strike a nerve cluster, but he can break Black Panther's arm in 27 different ways. If Big Boss can grab Black Panther and restrain him, I seriously doubt T'Challa can break free.

And since you brought the knife up, that's another advantage to Big Boss. CQC is supposed to be a weapons based fighting style, with a knife being a basic requirement.

You can't really compare fodder to black panther. Its like me saying that because black panther sneaked up on a hand ninja in a urban environment he could sneak up on big boss in a jungle. Not saying it isn't impressive but I don't think its a feat that black panther can't replicate.

You showed a scan of BP sneaking past cannon fodder, I was just trying to match it. Only difference is Snake didn't need to create a distraction himself, he's just fine working with the environment around him.

If that's not enough for you, Snake also got the drop on Raiden on more then a few occasions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qitnWMOthNg

Snake can just appear from thin air at his own leisure.

Raiden spent his entire game making fools of the most elite military group in the business, and singlehandedly destroyed 23 Metal Gear RAYS all at once, so sneaking up on him is no easy feat. If anyone, Big Boss should have the stealth advantage in this match, considering he taught Snake everything he knows and also managed to sneak up on him at the end of MGS4.

At 8:33 his suit is electrifying and it gets fuzzy at 9:13.

He was just having another episode because Snake whomped him so bad.

He was chatting it up just fine in the fight, so it's obvious he was doing ok at that time.

And just so we're clear, Gray Fox was the only FOXHOUND agent to ever recieve the code name Fox. That makes him the equivocal of the head League of Assassins member, when compared to DC, and a top SHIELD agent when compared to Marvel.

True that Black Widow and Talia al Ghul aren't going to be outskilling Black Panther any time soon, I just want to be clear that Fox isn't a brawler. He is skilled at H2H, to answer your later question (watch the clip above and hear his words: "Only a fool trusts his life to a weapon!")

So just to recap: Black Panther has fought:

Captain America: More skilled than Fox but lacks his strength and speed

Spider-Man: Not as skilled as Fox, not as strong or durable, about as fast. BP can't beat him anyway.

Wolverine: About as fast as Fox, more skilled, but doesn't have the strength. BP can't beat him anyway.

Deadpool: Same as above.

Daredevil: More skilled than Fox, but doesn't have the strength or speed.

Etc, you get it. Point is, right there, Snake beat a foe, leagues ahead of anyone who BP has ever faced. And what did Big Boss do to Snake again?

Yup.

First one he hits spider-man with a punch which would cripple the average man (spider-man was fine due to his spider-strength), next spider-man says black panther hits like an oak tree, final he is fighting dinosaurs with spider-man.

Being capable of one shotting average men is something all peak humans should be able to do. Big Boss can too, all those videos I posted show it, plus the gif. Look, here's some more.

12:17 snake owns everyone

You can also see The Boss dodge a near point blank bullet in the first few seconds of that.

As for the dinosaurs, it's clear Spider-Man did most of the work there. Black Panther only took on one lil guy, and still had trouble.

You wanna talk dinosaurs?

that

vs

that

Suck it Black Panther.

How do we know snake improved as much as big boss did? How do we know big boss didn't train more or harder than snake did as they got older?

This seems like you're trying to cop me out here, but honest answer, between the two Snake simply had more reason to train. He had a goal and a purpose; Big Boss was just drifting his way along. The day The Boss died, Jack's soul died with her. He had no reason to train. Snake did.

It's also worth noting that, when fighting the ninja, Snake was still using CQB. By the time MGS4 came along, he had upgraded to CQC. So Big Boss beat Snake at the pinnacle of his fighting skill prime.

Big Boss>Solid Snake>100 tonner Cyborg

Is it actually stated on screen he has had this training or are we assuming things?

Hmm? The entire plot of MGS3 revolves around Naked Snake having to kill his mentor and the moral struggle that goes along with it.

There is no assumption here, Jack was the private disciple of The Boss since the age of 14 for 10 years.

Captain america has also beaten super soldiers when he himself was in the body of a 90 pound cancer patient. Black panther has also stomped hand ninjas which are the deadliest assassins on the planet. He had to beat his uncle syan to get the title of black panther (Syan being the black panther would make him the best warrior in all of wakanda) and black panther beat him without his enhancements as well.

Physically speaking, Cap and Black Panther are equals.

However, I don't think you can count Cap skill feats for BP as well. Simply put, there's nothing to say the two are equal combatants. They often fight to a stalemate, and with BP often having a massive gear edge, that leads me to believe Cap must be the better fighter in order to last.

And Big Boss has no problem stomping guys from MSF, who take on tanks and attack choppers like canon fodder. Evens out with Hand Ninjas.

So does daredevil. And yet he stated he couldn't fight black panther head on and had to find a way to take him from surprise...

I don't recall Daredevil taking on tanks and attack choppers, but either way, my point was that the MSF Soldiers did that, let alone Big Boss.

Is that it in the video? Because thats not what I'm seeing

No, EVA explains it all in her hour long (give or take) message during Peace Walker. The Boss herself briefly went over these events at the end of MGS3. I can provide videos if you don't believe me.

#32 Posted by XImpossibruX (5180 posts) - - Show Bio

Sweet Jesus. This is an amazing debate. Kudos to both of you.

#33 Posted by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

@XImpossibruX said:

Sweet Jesus. This is an amazing debate. Kudos to both of you.

#34 Posted by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

@nickzambuto: Sorry, dude. I already flagged him and sent a message to a mod. He needs to be permanently banned.

He was banned months ago. He just keeps making new accounts.

#35 Posted by charlieboy (7167 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: They should be able to do an Ip ban.

#36 Posted by charlieboy (7167 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Do you know this person in real life?

#37 Posted by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

@nickzambuto: Do you know this person in real life?

I don't know him. Does he know me is another question...

#38 Posted by charlieboy (7167 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: You do realize this is cyberstalking. It is not only against the rules of comicvine. But it is actually illegal. This guy could feasibly get arrested for this if you notified the authorities.

#39 Posted by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

@nickzambuto: You do realize this is cyberstalking. It is not only against the rules of comicvine. But it is actually illegal. This guy could feasibly get arrested for this if you notified the authorities.

Interesting...

#40 Posted by charlieboy (7167 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I suggest you do so.

#41 Posted by Kornostar (1 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Kornostar said:

@nickzambuto said:

@Kornostar said:

@nickzambuto: Now that i know that you're a child incapable of producing any form of rational thought It's no mystery why you're such a compulsive lying douche.

Even though it's been proven otherwise you're going to keep using TS videos, I can't stop you but at least people who see this

http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/twin-snakes-confirmed-as-non-canon.452598413/

Hideous, underdeveloped brain incapable of rational thought and reasoning, compulsive liar and a future sex offender? Do I really need to do this anymore? Seriously....I think society has taken over. I did want you to leave this site, but now that I know how much of a failure you're going to be in real life I feel kind of bad taking the only solace you have.

I didn't use any TS feats, I posted TS videos only for convenience. It's the same story, and everything I said happened in both games.

Right, except for the missile surfing, the jumping 20-30 feet in the air, and the other dozen feats you posted. You even tried pulling this crap in the Snake vs Deathstroke thread which was already a mismatch stomp in Slade's favor.

I never said Solid Snake can jump 30 feet in the air, I said Big Boss and Ocelot can, which they both did (Peace Walker & MGS2)

And I didn't use the missile surfing as a feat; I'm debating Big Boss here, not Snake.

@Kornostar said:

@nickzambuto:Just say the word dude. You want to stop then I'll stop. No questions asked. No more finding embarrassing photos of your ugly mug, no more finding post that prove you're a compulsive liar. You want to end this. Just say the word.

...Please stop?

SDince you asked nicely, I will. Peace

#42 Posted by Sufferthorn (1738 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kornostar:

The only one you embaressed here, was yourself dude.

#43 Posted by charlieboy (7167 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sufferthorn said:

@Kornostar:

The only one you embaressed here, was yourself dude.

Agreed. This kind of behavior makes me sick.

#44 Posted by Sufferthorn (1738 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean really? You think posting pictures of someone on a comic-book forum is going to make you cool?

Wow dude. Not only have you classified yourself as a total loser. But also as a creep.

#45 Posted by charlieboy (7167 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sufferthorn: And this guy is acting like he is older than Nick. So it is kind of creepy.

#46 Posted by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

@charlieboy said:

@Sufferthorn: And this guy is acting like he is older than Nick. So it is kind of creepy.

Can't blame him. I am rather ravishing.

#47 Posted by Agent_California (762 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@charlieboy said:

@Sufferthorn: And this guy is acting like he is older than Nick. So it is kind of creepy.

Can't blame him. I am rather ravishing.

He's a 4chan reject, I wouldn't put any stock into what he has to say.

#48 Posted by Lvenger (20757 posts) - - Show Bio

Up until the cyber stalkers emerged, this was an interesting debate.

#49 Posted by nickzambuto (14143 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

Up until the cyber stalkers emerged, this was an interesting debate.

Mods will delete the posts in the morning. Just pretend it didn't happen.

#50 Posted by Lvenger (20757 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Lvenger said:

Up until the cyber stalkers emerged, this was an interesting debate.

Mods will delete the posts in the morning. Just pretend it didn't happen.

Thank goodness for that. And lol at the gif.