#1 Posted by nickzambuto (11435 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken

VS

NickZ

Vamp

Rules:

-No Pheromones

-Bone Claws

-Knowledge

BATTLE FIELD:

Fight at 20 ft.

#2 Posted by nick_hero22 (6316 posts) - - Show Bio

Smiley

#3 Edited by nickzambuto (11435 posts) - - Show Bio

@nick_hero22 said:

Smiley

We'll do Solid Snake vs Smiley later. I've gotta own beat Daken right quick.

#4 Edited by nickzambuto (11435 posts) - - Show Bio

OK, god_spawn doesn't know much about Vamp, so I'll start off easy by comparing stats, hopefully give him some insight.

Strength-

Vamp, I'm pretty sure has this in spades. Raiden is a 100 tonner easy, and though Vamp isn't quite as strong as him, he's been shown capable of locking swords with Jack, for a little while at least, and can easily keep up with him.

At one point, Vamp kicked Raiden 20 feet away, slamming him into a Gekko. Raiden has to weigh in excess of 500-1,000 pounds, what with being a cyborg and all, so kicking something that weighs that much is no easy feat. Not to undersell Daken, he's easily peak human, and thanks to his healing factor can lift far more than guys like Captain America, but in striking strength, Vamp has it sealed up.

Speed-

Not as cut and dry as strength, but it's still not a big deal. Vamp's reflexes are fast enough to solo an entire Navy Seal unit, and deflect their machine gun fire with just a knife,

even after Raiden became a cyborg, Vamp was still faster than him, and considering Raiden was blocking bullets with his sword before he became a cyborg, that's impressive.

Daken has plenty of great speed feats, he's not exactly FTL as some people might say *wink wink* but I won't say Vamp is faster than him.

However, Daken isn't faster than Vamp either. At the end of that video, you can see he damn near teleported out of the room without even batting an eye. Speed, let's just say is more or less not gonna factor in.

Healing-

I might give Daken a slight edge here, though only slight. The nanomachines inside Vamp's body amplify his natural healing, to the point where he doesn't even feel pain. Multiple stab wounds don't even falter him, he even dislocated his own neck at one point to avoid an attack.

Vamp's been shot, stabbed, beaten, blown up, and drowned - couple minutes later he's tip top ready for round 2.

Skill-

Skill is always a hard think to gauge. There's really nothing setting these two apart when it comes to martial arts, however, who's the better martial artist and who's the better combatant are two different things.

Vamp utilizes his agility when fighting, more so than Daken, and that's something that'll give him an edge. Superior maneuverability will help him not only avoid more hits, but land more as well. Daken's disappearing trick is always a toughy, but luckily for me, Vamp is the perfect man to get around that.

Daken doesn't have superspeed or anything, he says it right here. He's just "always where (my) opponent isn't looking"

Unfortunately for Daken, Vamp has a move reading ability, ala Cassy Cain. If Daken tries to move to where Vamp isn't looking, Vamp will know he's trying to move there before he even does it, and thus will still see him. That's also another skill point for Vamp, move reading will allow him to see and counter most of Daken's moves before he makes them.

Vamp has many other techniques that can seal the deal, such as shadow hypnosis, but I'll leave those for later.

Arsenal-

Just a quick note to finish up. You might of noticed I put "Bone Claws" in the OP for Daken. The reason I did that was because this wouldn't be very fair if Daken just cut through all of Vamp's weapons with his Murumasa Claws, would it?

Now that that's said, even if Daken had his Murumasa Claws, he's still crippled by the fact that that's all he has. Unless he gets right up in Vamp's face, he can't do anything. Vamp on the other hand, is an expert with throwing knives, and can always throw pop shots at Daken from afar then quickly come in close.

A good match, but I think Vamp is proven the superior combatant. I look foward to your reply (so long as it's not based on Daken blitzing FTL Deadpool)

#5 Posted by God_Spawn (35985 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Vamp is stronger so that is true. No debate there and Daken is under Captain America in strength so wrong there.

Speed: I would probably give it to Vamp but not my much. Daken on his own has been able to keep with characters like Wolverine, Spider-Man, X-23 etc. Some of them have speed feats equal to and better than characters that have dodged, deflected machine gun fire before like Mr. X, Batman, Captain America, Daredevil etc. While Daken doesn't really have speed feats of that nature, being able to contend with characters of that nature proves his speed. Even Spider-Man said he was fast like his dad.

Skill: Vamp isn't a better combatant at all. Yes, they really aren't hard to gauge, but in Marvel with the characters Daken has stood up against, he has. Wolverine and Captain America are some of the best martial artists AND combatants Marvel has to offer. Daken being able to stand up against Wolverine multiple times, stand up to Cyber, take over cities with plans,and even prep against a few X-Men IIRC. (He did so in away to immobilize Colossus, take out Nighcrawler, incapacitate Cyclops etc. He is a highly skilled combatant himself so I don't see Vamp holding any edge over him in that regard and I say Daken is the superior. Vamp seems more flaunty with his agility than anything. Daken does use it when he has to though (in terms of maneuverability) like in his fight with Skaar (who can catch arrows mid air so he isn't super slow but still slower than Vamp or Daken) and kept up with characters who regularly use agility in terms of Spider-Man and X-23. So whatever maneuverability advantage might have I don't see it making a difference considering who Daken has faced.

Regarding his disappearing trick, I don't see Vamp getting around that either for one main reason. There isn't enough to really say how it operates other than it was a technique taught to him by the master and that Daken doesn't have true super speed. Spider-Man on panel has stated that the technique leaves no trail to be detected.

Spider-Man's words

"I blink and he is there. There is no sound, no movement, no nothing. Spider-sense is the only thing that keeps my head attached to my neck" And even then, it was barely that Spider-Man avoided. Vamp's move reading may come in handy against Daken's regular attacks but unless he is boasting spidey sense level precoginition and Spider-Man level reflexes, then Vamp isn't dodging. But, it isn't in Daken's total nature to use the technique every fight but if he does fight. Against certain opponents seems to be more often.

Healing factor: No question, Daken's is superior. Tanking bombs that took out buildings, hits from Skaar and Thing, being napalmed, he can regenerate organs and limbs etc.

. From you have told me and how Daken tends to fight like games sometimes, then he could lose this majority. Daken does have an ego in his fights and at times it has proven to be his undoing, like his fight X-23 (didn't lose but Kinney shouldn't have able to do as well), fight against the Punisher (again, Daken was underwritten despite it being a pretty cool issue) and his fight Spider-Man when he had chances to beat him, he didn't. Vamp's healing is perfect for Daken's initial attacks and the only way I really see Daken winning this is if he goes for the kill relatively early on in the fight meaning how he treated Frank on the roof when he got serious. If Daken actually takes the knowledge given to him as per OP rules, then he could probably take a majority but it won't be by a large margin.

As far as this fight goes,it really isn't a debate between us as this is more informative for me than me actually trying to refute points. I think Vamp from what you have shown me can actually take it. Sorry I couldn't give you more of a debate but I can see Vamp taking the majority between his strength, stats, move reading (for the most part of the fight) and his own skill that allows him to supplement his stats in an effective matter, Daken could lose.

Moderator
#6 Posted by nickzambuto (11435 posts) - - Show Bio

Speed: I would probably give it to Vamp but not my much. Daken on his own has been able to keep with characters like Wolverine, Spider-Man, X-23 etc.

Daken can't keep up with Spider-Man. His pheromones through Peter off his game enough for Daken to get some hits in, but the second Peter got over it Daken was pretty much blitzed.

Ends him in two pages.

Skill: Vamp isn't a better combatant at all. Yes, they really aren't hard to gauge, but in Marvel with the characters Daken has stood up against, he has. Wolverine and Captain America are some of the best martial artists AND combatants Marvel has to offer.

Daken takes on Wolverine and Captain America.

Vamp takes on Raiden and Solid Snake.

Evens out yes? Only difference is Daken usually has pheromones and his disappearing trick to take these guys on, while Vamp doesn't need any of that. Since Daken can't use either here to effective use, that's sort of a moot point.

Your argument for Daken's skill is reliant on the opponents he faces. Vamp's skill on the other hand, can actually be displayed from the special techniques he knows, hypnotism, move reading, etc, as well as his utilization of agility and acrobatic attacks. Yes, Daken has taken on Spider-Man, who is more agile than Vamp, but I'm not saying Vamp wins because he's acrobatic. I'm saying that his agility shows a better understanding of fighting and natural ability.

Regarding his disappearing trick, I don't see Vamp getting around that either for one main reason. There isn't enough to really say how it operates other than it was a technique taught to him by the master and that Daken doesn't have true super speed. Spider-Man on panel has stated that the technique leaves no trail to be detected.

The way this technique works is simple; Daken is anywhere his opponent isn't looking. He states this himself.

Since Vamp can read his movements, if Daken tries to go left, Vamp will know before he does and thus can track him without problem. Vamp's eyes would of already moved by the time Daken did.

And another thing, Vamp can easi-

As far as this fight goes,it really isn't a debate between us as this is more informative for me than me actually trying to refute points. I think Vamp from what you have shown me can actually take it. Sorry I couldn't give you more of a debate but I can see Vamp taking the majority between his strength, stats, move reading (for the most part of the fight) and his own skill that allows him to supplement his stats in an effective matter, Daken could lose.

-ly, huh, what? Oh, ok... I still had a lot to say about Vamp, I hadn't even started yet actually... you sure you're done? Vamp ain't THAT tough! Come on! Daken's got this!

#7 Posted by God_Spawn (35985 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Daken is perfectly capable of keeping up with Spider-Man. If he wasn't Spider-Man wouldn't have commented on his speed and compared him to Wolverine in the first place whom Spider-Man thought was even faster than he was. Spider-Man is indeed both of theirs superior in speed but to think they can't keep up in battle due to their own speed and skill is a false statement. The only difference being that is one of the times Parker was actually forced to so of course he could outmaneuver him.

Evens out yes? Only difference is Daken usually has pheromones and his disappearing trick to take these guys on, while Vamp doesn't need any of that. Since Daken can't use either here to effective use, that's sort of a moot point

False. Daken hardly uses his pheromones in battle (doing so once or twice, the Spider-Man fight being one of them) and his disappearing trick is more common but still only a handful of fights. His disappearing trick can work.

Your argument for Daken's skill is reliant on the opponents he faces. Vamp's skill on the other hand, can actually be displayed from the special techniques he knows, hypnotism, move reading, etc, as well as his utilization of agility and acrobatic attacks. Yes, Daken has taken on Spider-Man, who is more agile than Vamp, but I'm not saying Vamp wins because he's acrobatic. I'm saying that his agility shows a better understanding of fighting and natural ability.

Again, false statement. Daken being a Wolverine villain and taking on characters that are some of Marvel's best is a display in his skill. Characters that can fight cream of the crop characters in without a significant stat edge and in h2h/claw combat, is a display of skill. It's why you can't say characters like Crossbones, Batroc, Cyber, Romulus etc are bad combatants. It's because they can fight said characters like Wolverine and Captain America in combat that solidifies their status as fighters. Vamp has understanding of his style of fighting, not a better understanding of fighting in general. It's similar to Batroc. Batroc is a master in Savate and is his main and seemingly only style, but he can identify other styles of fighting and even name their country of origin and adapt accordingly. Daredevil is also similar. He only knows a handful of styles but is capable of going h2h against Captain America, T'Challa and Wolverine who have been stated to have known virtually every single fighting style on the planet and even then some (Wolverine has studied weaknesses and strengths of beings and cultures outside of Earth hence why he knew how to nerve strike Kid Gladiator).

The way this technique works is simple; Daken is anywhere his opponent isn't looking. He states this himself.
Since Vamp can read his movements, if Daken tries to go left, Vamp will know before he does and thus can track him without problem. Vamp's eyes would of already moved by the time Daken did.

Again, false. Daken simply states how it works in general but the effects of how he does it is a mystery and since he can do so to characters that can perceive bullets coming and flip through hoards of them and even one with a very high sense of pre-cog. Based on Spider-Man's statement, there is more to it. There is seemingly no movement in it and because he has no super speed but can still somehow disappear to characters on par or faster than Vamp, then it can work on him.

ok... I still had a lot to say about Vamp, I hadn't even started yet actually... you sure you're done? Vamp ain't THAT tough! Come on! Daken's got this!

Nope, that is really all I needed. Daken has plenty of tricks in arsenal but how he uses them is pretty scarce sometimes. Vamp being vastly stronger, enough to eventually KO Daken, and the healing factor to take the primary strikes of Daken combined with his own knowledge of combat and agility should be enough to give Daken enough for the majority. At this point we would just be nitpicking certain points and going "you're wrong, Vamp does this". "No you're wrong, Daken as done so and so".

Moderator
#8 Edited by CorvoAltano (5 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken massively outclases Vamp in every category. Vamp got beat by human Raiden 3 times in MGS2. And no, Raiden never blocked bullets with his sword in MGS2, it was a gameplay mechanic used to defend against gun fire when you got the sword at the end of the game, in fact even as a Cyborg we never saw Raiden deflect gun fire with his sword [although my memory is fuzzy there]. Basically Vamp lost 3 times to a guy that isn't even good enough to be considered a comic street leveler.

Vamp's only speed feats are dodging and deflecting bullets [common among mid tier streets] and killing fodder Navy Seals

Daken would kill Vamp in the span of 10 seconds. He's much stronger, much faster, and much more skilled.

When you compare the fact that Vamp can't beat two characters like Raiden and Snake, who wouldn't be good enough to match D/C list comic characters

To a top tier like Daken who's fought Deadpool, Cipher, Wolverine and freaking Skaar.

I'm also disgusted by the fact that Raiden and Snake are being compared to Wolverine and Captain America. When their two of the finest street level combatants in Marvel with decades of feats, where Snake got stomped by 3 fodder soldiers and Raiden is practically featless. If you put Raiden and Snake 2 v 1 against Cap, Cap would steam roll them in the span of seconds.

There is no comparison to be made, Vamp will be dead before he knows what hit him. MGS Characters are not impressive and are in no way comparable to comic streets. It's really that simple. The main character in that series was taken down by 3 soldiers. Again, not comparable... Not including Revengance though since characters are actually tossing Mechs in that game but since it takes place nearly a decade after the main sries ended, I'm not including it.

#9 Edited by nickzambuto (11435 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken is perfectly capable of keeping up with Spider-Man. If he wasn't Spider-Man wouldn't have commented on his speed and compared him to Wolverine in the first place whom Spider-Man thought was even faster than he was. Spider-Man is indeed both of theirs superior in speed but to think they can't keep up in battle due to their own speed and skill is a false statement. The only difference being that is one of the times Parker was actually forced to so of course he could outmaneuver him.

Calling someone fast =/= Calling someone as fast as you are.

Sentry called Iron Man fast. Iron Man is indeed fast, but not when compared directly to Sentry.

I'm not saying Daken can't keep up with Peter, but their speed isn't that close. In any case, besides deflecting machine gun fire with a little knife and outmaneuvering Cyborg Raiden, Vamp has even shown capable of running on water.

12:45

In MGS4, it's explained that he could run up the side of the platform because

So it's safe to say, combined with his acrobatic fighting style, he can avoid plenty strikes and let his regen take care of the rest.

Again, false. Daken simply states how it works in general but the effects of how he does it is a mystery and since he can do so to characters that can perceive bullets coming and flip through hoards of them and even one with a very high sense of pre-cog. Based on Spider-Man's statement, there is more to it. There is seemingly no movement in it and because he has no super speed but can still somehow disappear to characters on par or faster than Vamp, then it can work on him.

However the attack works, Daken doesn't teleport, we can agree on that right? He needs to actually move in order to disappear, correct? If so, he'll need to contract his muscles in just the right way to bend his body to the correct position, and since Vamp can read his muscles, he'll be able to predict where Daken is moving to, and watch him as he twists his leg to move. Unless you can tell me that moving is not neccesary for Daken to disappear, then he cannot disappear.

Nope, that is really all I needed. Daken has plenty of tricks in arsenal but how he uses them is pretty scarce sometimes. Vamp being vastly stronger, enough to eventually KO Daken, and the healing factor to take the primary strikes of Daken combined with his own knowledge of combat and agility should be enough to give Daken enough for the majority. At this point we would just be nitpicking certain points and going "you're wrong, Vamp does this". "No you're wrong, Daken as done so and so".

Yayyy I convinved god_spawn Vamp can beat Daken. Totally adding this to me resume.

Does this mean Vamp can beat Magneto too??? Or would the fact that Vamp has metal nanomachines flowing through his viens in anyway affect the outcome?

#10 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19489 posts) - - Show Bio

In my opinion, they both lose from confusion of who's who.

I mean... seriously... they look way too similar.

#11 Posted by cascadeking09 (6731 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: nice

#12 Posted by God_Spawn (35985 posts) - - Show Bio

@cascadeking09: Nice what? Non existent argument lol?

Moderator
#13 Posted by cascadeking09 (6731 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Nice job holding up your end of the debate even after admitting your character doesnt take the majority. You were thorough.

#14 Edited by God_Spawn (35985 posts) - - Show Bio

@cascadeking09: Gracias, mi hermano.

Moderator
#15 Posted by cascadeking09 (6731 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: De nada. lol I think it's weird to say you're welcome for complimenting someone, I just wanted to say that in Spanish.

#16 Posted by nickzambuto (11435 posts) - - Show Bio

@YourNeighborhoodComicGeek said:

In my opinion, they both lose from confusion of who's who.

I mean... seriously... they look way too similar.

You're totally right. With Vamp's thick facial hair and long flowing locks, he'll most definately end up confusing himself with Daken's baby face and mohawk. Dude will probably stab himself in the face out of confusion.

#17 Posted by Wiffofit (6 posts) - - Show Bio

In my opinion, they both lose from confusion of who's who.

I mean... seriously... they look way too similar.

Well it's really e asy

One character, Daken, has impressive feats

The other character, Vamp, doesn't.

That's a pretty good way to tell them apart.

#18 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (5913 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken should win.

Daken getting the drop on Wolverine in Avengers tower, eluding the entire Avengers team, is a far greater stealth feat than taking out a team of Seals.

One of the problems in these types of comparisons is video footage from video games computer generated imagery are far more advanced graphically wise, depicting detail, atmosphere and subtleties drawings cannot hope to capture, and are therefore more convincing than said comic drawings.

Daken can definitely hang with Vamp. In fact, I'd give Daken a clear majority.

#19 Posted by nickzambuto (11435 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Daken should win.

Daken getting the drop on Wolverine in Avengers tower, eluding the entire Avengers team, is a far greater stealth feat than taking out a team of Seals.

One of the problems in these types of comparisons is video footage from video games computer generated imagery are far more advanced graphically wise, depicting detail, atmosphere and subtleties drawings cannot hope to capture, and are therefore more convincing than said comic drawings.

Daken can definitely hang with Vamp. In fact, I'd give Daken a clear majority.

Stealth has no role in this fight. Considering Daken's disappearing trick won't work on Vamp, as I've explained, (you're welcome to argue) stealth isn't even something that should be brought up.

#20 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (5913 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Daken should win.

Daken getting the drop on Wolverine in Avengers tower, eluding the entire Avengers team, is a far greater stealth feat than taking out a team of Seals.

One of the problems in these types of comparisons is video footage from video games computer generated imagery are far more advanced graphically wise, depicting detail, atmosphere and subtleties drawings cannot hope to capture, and are therefore more convincing than said comic drawings.

Daken can definitely hang with Vamp. In fact, I'd give Daken a clear majority.

Stealth has no role in this fight. Considering Daken's disappearing trick won't work on Vamp, as I've explained, (you're welcome to argue) stealth isn't even something that should be brought up.

Stealth and avoidance played a huge role in Vamp's decimating of the Seal team more than anything else. They simply couldn't find him or draw a bead on him. I brought up Daken doing likewise, to the Avengers no less, to place said showing in just proportion. Had nothing to do with his 'disappearing act' per se.

In one breath, you state stealth should not be an issue in a fight tween these two ... in the next you present Vamp decimating a Seal team wherein stealth was the principle factor in his success. To which I state Daken infiltrating Avengers tower, wherein the likes of Wolverine and Spider-Man were unable to pinpoint his location, shows that decimating a Seal team in such a fashion would be child's play for Daken.

Heck, just to spite his father, Daken took over Madripoor in a day. Infiltrating and decimating Madripoor's underground as though it were child's play. Do note, Madripoor's underground is not comprised of simpletons and thugs. It's an impressive feat.

#21 Posted by nickzambuto (11435 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@nickzambuto said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Daken should win.

Daken getting the drop on Wolverine in Avengers tower, eluding the entire Avengers team, is a far greater stealth feat than taking out a team of Seals.

One of the problems in these types of comparisons is video footage from video games computer generated imagery are far more advanced graphically wise, depicting detail, atmosphere and subtleties drawings cannot hope to capture, and are therefore more convincing than said comic drawings.

Daken can definitely hang with Vamp. In fact, I'd give Daken a clear majority.

Stealth has no role in this fight. Considering Daken's disappearing trick won't work on Vamp, as I've explained, (you're welcome to argue) stealth isn't even something that should be brought up.

Stealth and avoidance played a huge role in Vamp's decimating of the Seal team more than anything else. They simply couldn't find him or draw a bead on him. I brought up Daken doing likewise, to the Avengers no less, to place said showing in just proportion. Had nothing to do with his 'disappearing act' per se.

In one breath, you state stealth should not be an issue in a fight tween these two ... in the next you present Vamp decimating a Seal team wherein stealth was the principle factor in his success. To which I state Daken infiltrating Avengers tower, wherein the likes of Wolverine and Spider-Man were unable to pinpoint his location, shows that decimating a Seal team in such a fashion would be child's play for Daken.

Heck, just to spite his father, Daken took over Madripoor in a day. Infiltrating and decimating Madripoor's underground as though it were child's play. Do note, Madripoor's underground is not comprised of simpletons and thugs. It's an impressive feat.

I posted the Seal Team scene as a display of Vamp's speed; deflecting machine gun fire, jumping from the rafters in a blur, damn near teleporting at the end - I never mentioned stealth.

#22 Posted by Insanitiezzz (6 posts) - - Show Bio

Daken wins because he has impressive feats, Vamp doesn't

It's really that simple.

#23 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (5913 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@nickzambuto said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

Daken should win.

Daken getting the drop on Wolverine in Avengers tower, eluding the entire Avengers team, is a far greater stealth feat than taking out a team of Seals.

One of the problems in these types of comparisons is video footage from video games computer generated imagery are far more advanced graphically wise, depicting detail, atmosphere and subtleties drawings cannot hope to capture, and are therefore more convincing than said comic drawings.

Daken can definitely hang with Vamp. In fact, I'd give Daken a clear majority.

Stealth has no role in this fight. Considering Daken's disappearing trick won't work on Vamp, as I've explained, (you're welcome to argue) stealth isn't even something that should be brought up.

Stealth and avoidance played a huge role in Vamp's decimating of the Seal team more than anything else. They simply couldn't find him or draw a bead on him. I brought up Daken doing likewise, to the Avengers no less, to place said showing in just proportion. Had nothing to do with his 'disappearing act' per se.

In one breath, you state stealth should not be an issue in a fight tween these two ... in the next you present Vamp decimating a Seal team wherein stealth was the principle factor in his success. To which I state Daken infiltrating Avengers tower, wherein the likes of Wolverine and Spider-Man were unable to pinpoint his location, shows that decimating a Seal team in such a fashion would be child's play for Daken.

Heck, just to spite his father, Daken took over Madripoor in a day. Infiltrating and decimating Madripoor's underground as though it were child's play. Do note, Madripoor's underground is not comprised of simpletons and thugs. It's an impressive feat.

I posted the Seal Team scene as a display of Vamp's speed; deflecting machine gun fire, jumping from the rafters in a blur, damn near teleporting at the end - I never mentioned stealth.

Fair enough. To which I'd say most of Daken's antagonists have shown themselves able to dodge and / or deflect bullets in the multiples as well. Daken's a fantastic martial artist to boot. What is Vamp's damage soak like? Because Daken could literally soak clips of machine gun fire without having to avoid (which he could regardless).

What is Vamp's standard gear? A knife? Not sure he has the damage output to take Daken down even if we want to pretend he lands shots on Daken three to one ... a knife versus six twelve inch claws that easily puncture steel favors Daken. Plus the martial chops to know exactly where to strike to cause the most damage.

Not convinced Vamp's taking a majority.

EDIT: and Deadpool's deflected bullets with his sword and dodged them as well. And yet he was far too slow to tag Daken.

#24 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII: Wolverine Dodges Bullets yet punisher Tags him easy. So is Punisher FTL? C'mon guy... ABC logic now.....

#25 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (5913 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Super_SoldierXII: Wolverine Dodges Bullets yet punisher Tags him easy. So is Punisher FTL? C'mon guy... ABC logic now.....

Nothing I stated reflects your silly example of ABC logic I'm afraid.

And c'mon guy, stop referencing Ennis showings as anything credible. The reference and comment tell me you know squat about the character. Wolverine dodges bullets yes, he also soaks them as a matter of course because he can. Master Po chastised him for it, shaking his head wondering why a man who has mastered no less than 28 different styles of Kung Fu still insists on charging head first into a hail of bullets when he could avoid. Answer: because he can and because it expedites the butt whoopin. Explains why a bonafide bullet timer takes the shots. And you most certainly need no where near FTL speeds to time bullets that travel at 800 meters per second. Or were you just exaggerating to drive your pointless point home? There are plenty of instances of Logan dodging bullets as a result, and plenty with him soaking them.

And I see no flawed or irrelevant ABC logic there whatsoever. I pointed out feats showing Daken can contend with folks fast enough to avoid and block bullets because Vamp blocks and avoids bullets ... get it? I'll spell it out further; I highlighted instances in which Daken moves faster than bullet timers and easily avoids the blade of one who is fast and good enough to deflect bullets with it. Those are feats showing Daken will not be overwhelmed by Vamp's speed who has been shown herein to do likewise and therefore pertinent to the debate.

So, c'mon now ...

#26 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII:

Guess Punisher is faster than Spidey (whos faster than Bullets). Wow look at these not Garth Ennis guy!? Guess its true.

ABC Logic.....

#27 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (5913 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2:

You didn't even read a word I wrote did you?

Your whole line of reasoning is completely off. What your pulling is "ABC" logic yes ... don't even try to pretend what I was saying is even remotely close to "Punisher can draw a bead on Parker with a freaken gun, therefore Punisher moves faster than Parker" crap.

EDIT: I'll just repost what I wrote. Maybe this time you'll read it and see how it's pertinent to highlight feats Daken has in proving he can contend with the feats Vamp was posted to have and why it's actually relevant;

And I see no flawed or irrelevant ABC logic there whatsoever. I pointed out feats showing Daken can contend with folks fast enough to avoid and block bullets because Vamp blocks and avoids bullets ... get it? I'll spell it out further; I highlighted instances in which Daken moves faster than bullet timers and easily avoids the blade of one who is fast and good enough to deflect bullets with it. Those are feats showing Daken will not be overwhelmed by Vamp's speed who has been shown herein to do likewise and therefore pertinent to the debate.

#28 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII:

EDIT: and Deadpool's deflected bullets with his sword and dodged them as well. And yet he was far too slow to tag Daken.

You ABC Logic stats A) Daken Tags Deadpool who B) blocks/dodges Bullets thus C) Daken must be surly faster than Bullet Timers.....

A + B = C Logic.

Dont try to back out what you said now...

#29 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (5913 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Super_SoldierXII:

EDIT: and Deadpool's deflected bullets with his sword and dodged them as well. And yet he was far too slow to tag Daken.

You ABC Logic stats A) Daken Tags Deadpool who B) blocks/dodges Bullets thus C) Daken must be surly faster than Bullet Timers.....

A + B = C Logic.

Dont try to back out what you said now...

No. Never said any of that crap. That's you just not understanding and putting words in my mouth. I posted exactly what I said. Not your prostituted version above. You just don't understand. I'll explain one more time, real slow like, then you're on your own kid;

Daken has contended easily with folks able to pull off the exact same feats Vamp has been shown to do. Therefore, he is not out of his depths speed wise - I never stated therefore 'HE MUST BE FASTER than bullet timers. And if you wanted to be more accurate, it would be more like A) Daken easily avoids Deadpools sword B) Deadpool blocks and deflects bullets with said sword C) therefore Daken can contend with Vamp's combat reflex speed who has been shown herein to likewise block bullets with his blade. Right there shows you're completely off track.

Conclusion; those up there are your words. Not mine. Mind was a valid point. You're interpretation is skewed at best.

#30 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII: Maybe its the fact that Nick Proved without a doubt that Vamp can take Daken in a good match and all you done is blatantly showed none of that matters to you and Daken Stomps. Maybe thats why someone would interpret your ABC logic of what your trying to say for what it is.

M a y b e t h a t s w h y h m m m m . . . . .

#31 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (5913 posts) - - Show Bio

@CadenceV2 said:

@Super_SoldierXII: Maybe its the fact that Nick Proved without a doubt that Vamp can take Daken in a good match and all you done is blatantly showed none of that matters to you and Daken Stomps. Maybe thats why someone would interpret your ABC logic of what your trying to say for what it is.

M a y b e t h a t s w h y h m m m m . . . . .

???

Wow. Sure. OK.

You've addressed nothing, as you misinterpreted everything. You make little to no sense, and I've shown clearly to those with eyes and a brain why what I was stating had nothing to do with ABC logic and especially not of the variety you were touting.

You're a bit off here bud. You erred in interpretation and can't fess up. What I laid down was an extremely valid point. What you interpreted had nothing whatsoever to do with what I was saying.

EDIT: And when you learn to breath through your nose a little, please point out where it is I stated Daken 'stomps' and where I stated everything Nick has shown matters not at all please. Right then.

#32 Posted by nickzambuto (11435 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CadenceV2:

You didn't even read a word I wrote did you?

Your whole line of reasoning is completely off. What your pulling is "ABC" logic yes ... don't even try to pretend what I was saying is even remotely close to "Punisher can draw a bead on Parker with a freaken gun, therefore Punisher moves faster than Parker" crap.

EDIT: I'll just repost what I wrote. Maybe this time you'll read it and see how it's pertinent to highlight feats Daken has in proving he can contend with the feats Vamp was posted to have and why it's actually relevant;

And I see no flawed or irrelevant ABC logic there whatsoever. I pointed out feats showing Daken can contend with folks fast enough to avoid and block bullets because Vamp blocks and avoids bullets ... get it? I'll spell it out further; I highlighted instances in which Daken moves faster than bullet timers and easily avoids the blade of one who is fast and good enough to deflect bullets with it. Those are feats showing Daken will not be overwhelmed by Vamp's speed who has been shown herein to do likewise and therefore pertinent to the debate.

...Anyway, deflecting bullets is far from Vamp's only speed feat. I also posted him running on water and "teleporting".

You say Daken should be faster than Vamp because Daken is faster than Deadpool, and Deadpool deflects bullets just like Vamp. Two things wrong with that: 1) Deadpool uses a sword, Vamp uses a lil bitty knife. And 2) It goes both ways. Raiden was deflecting bullets before he became a Cyborg, and Vamp was far faster than him. Even after Raiden became a Cyborg, he became much much faster, and Vamp was still noticably quicker than him in their fight.

So the point of Daken>Deadpool=Vamp isn't exactly right. It's more Daken=Vamp>Cyborg Raiden>Raiden=Deadpool.

#33 Edited by Eliotcabale (6 posts) - - Show Bio

Vamp has no impressive speed feats period. This thread is embarrassing. Raiden didn't deflect bullets before he became a cyborg, what a load of crap, he didn't even deflect them when he was a cyborg

Deadpool isn't = to Vamp either. Deadpool is closer to Wolverine who's >>>>>Vamp

Daredevil blocked bullets with a billy club. Actually Daredevil has better speed feats than Vamp

Most importantly all of these characters are leagues more skilled than Vamp is, Vamp has no decent skill showings either.

Fail thread fails. Daken would kill Vamp in the span of 5 seconds, blitz and decapitation of a guy that got taken down 3 times in one game by someone who isn't even good enough to be considered a street leveler.

#34 Posted by Eliotcabale (6 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII there's also the fact that daken killed punisher where vamp failed to kill the protaganist of his game on like 5 occasions. his track record is also crap compared to daken

#35 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (5913 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CadenceV2:

You didn't even read a word I wrote did you?

Your whole line of reasoning is completely off. What your pulling is "ABC" logic yes ... don't even try to pretend what I was saying is even remotely close to "Punisher can draw a bead on Parker with a freaken gun, therefore Punisher moves faster than Parker" crap.

EDIT: I'll just repost what I wrote. Maybe this time you'll read it and see how it's pertinent to highlight feats Daken has in proving he can contend with the feats Vamp was posted to have and why it's actually relevant;

And I see no flawed or irrelevant ABC logic there whatsoever. I pointed out feats showing Daken can contend with folks fast enough to avoid and block bullets because Vamp blocks and avoids bullets ... get it? I'll spell it out further; I highlighted instances in which Daken moves faster than bullet timers and easily avoids the blade of one who is fast and good enough to deflect bullets with it. Those are feats showing Daken will not be overwhelmed by Vamp's speed who has been shown herein to do likewise and therefore pertinent to the debate.

...Anyway, deflecting bullets is far from Vamp's only speed feat. I also posted him running on water and "teleporting".

You say Daken should be faster than Vamp because Daken is faster than Deadpool, and Deadpool deflects bullets just like Vamp. Two things wrong with that: 1) Deadpool uses a sword, Vamp uses a lil bitty knife. And 2) It goes both ways. Raiden was deflecting bullets before he became a Cyborg, and Vamp was far faster than him. Even after Raiden became a Cyborg, he became much much faster, and Vamp was still noticably quicker than him in their fight.

So the point of Daken>Deadpool=Vamp isn't exactly right. It's more Daken=Vamp>Cyborg Raiden>Raiden=Deadpool.

Again, I wasn't proffering ABC arguments. I was matching feats. It is extremely pertinent to point out that Daken has dealt with folks who have evidenced the exact same reflex feats as Vamp.

It's that simple really.

I was not 'equaling' so and so to so and so due to such and such.

#36 Posted by nickzambuto (11435 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@nickzambuto said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CadenceV2:

You didn't even read a word I wrote did you?

Your whole line of reasoning is completely off. What your pulling is "ABC" logic yes ... don't even try to pretend what I was saying is even remotely close to "Punisher can draw a bead on Parker with a freaken gun, therefore Punisher moves faster than Parker" crap.

EDIT: I'll just repost what I wrote. Maybe this time you'll read it and see how it's pertinent to highlight feats Daken has in proving he can contend with the feats Vamp was posted to have and why it's actually relevant;

And I see no flawed or irrelevant ABC logic there whatsoever. I pointed out feats showing Daken can contend with folks fast enough to avoid and block bullets because Vamp blocks and avoids bullets ... get it? I'll spell it out further; I highlighted instances in which Daken moves faster than bullet timers and easily avoids the blade of one who is fast and good enough to deflect bullets with it. Those are feats showing Daken will not be overwhelmed by Vamp's speed who has been shown herein to do likewise and therefore pertinent to the debate.

...Anyway, deflecting bullets is far from Vamp's only speed feat. I also posted him running on water and "teleporting".

You say Daken should be faster than Vamp because Daken is faster than Deadpool, and Deadpool deflects bullets just like Vamp. Two things wrong with that: 1) Deadpool uses a sword, Vamp uses a lil bitty knife. And 2) It goes both ways. Raiden was deflecting bullets before he became a Cyborg, and Vamp was far faster than him. Even after Raiden became a Cyborg, he became much much faster, and Vamp was still noticably quicker than him in their fight.

So the point of Daken>Deadpool=Vamp isn't exactly right. It's more Daken=Vamp>Cyborg Raiden>Raiden=Deadpool.

Again, I wasn't proffering ABC arguments. I was matching feats. It is extremely pertinent to point out that Daken has dealt with folks who have evidenced the exact same reflex feats as Vamp.

It's that simple really.

I was not 'equaling' so and so to so and so due to such and such.

I understand, you were saying that Daken beat someone who can match Vamp's speed feats, you're right, that's not ABC logic at all. I'm just saying - Vamp did the same thing by outmaneuvering Raiden. So they've both proven faster than someone who can deflect bullets.

Something that should be pointed out though, Daken isn't any faster than Deadpool? He directly states that, quote, "As loathsome as it is to admit it, I'm no faster than you are"

The only reason Deadpool couldn't tag was because Daken had his disappearing technique. In terms of speed, Deadpool and Daken are equal, Daken says that. So wouldn't that put Vamp above Daken?

#37 Posted by Outofthequestion (20 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Raiden can't deflect bullets. No sure why you keep saying this.

#38 Posted by nickzambuto (11435 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@Super_SoldierXII: Maybe its the fact that Nick Proved without a doubt that Vamp can take Daken in a good match and all you done is blatantly showed none of that matters to you and Daken Stomps. Maybe thats why someone would interpret your ABC logic of what your trying to say for what it is.

M a y b e t h a t s w h y h m m m m . . . . .

???

Wow. Sure. OK.

You've addressed nothing, as you misinterpreted everything. You make little to no sense, and I've shown clearly to those with eyes and a brain why what I was stating had nothing to do with ABC logic and especially not of the variety you were touting.

You're a bit off here bud. You erred in interpretation and can't fess up. What I laid down was an extremely valid point. What you interpreted had nothing whatsoever to do with what I was saying.

EDIT: And when you learn to breath through your nose a little, please point out where it is I stated Daken 'stomps' and where I stated everything Nick has shown matters not at all please. Right then.

Alright, sorry Cadence, but I gotta say this made me chuckle.

#39 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@CadenceV2 said:

@Super_SoldierXII: Maybe its the fact that Nick Proved without a doubt that Vamp can take Daken in a good match and all you done is blatantly showed none of that matters to you and Daken Stomps. Maybe thats why someone would interpret your ABC logic of what your trying to say for what it is.

M a y b e t h a t s w h y h m m m m . . . . .

???

Wow. Sure. OK.

You've addressed nothing, as you misinterpreted everything. You make little to no sense, and I've shown clearly to those with eyes and a brain why what I was stating had nothing to do with ABC logic and especially not of the variety you were touting.

You're a bit off here bud. You erred in interpretation and can't fess up. What I laid down was an extremely valid point. What you interpreted had nothing whatsoever to do with what I was saying.

EDIT: And when you learn to breath through your nose a little, please point out where it is I stated Daken 'stomps' and where I stated everything Nick has shown matters not at all please. Right then.

Alright, sorry Cadence, but I gotta say this made me chuckle.

No probs it is funny. :)

#40 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (5913 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Something that should be pointed out though, Daken isn't any faster than Deadpool? He directly states that, quote, "As loathsome as it is to admit it, I'm no faster than you are"

The only reason Deadpool couldn't tag was because Daken had his disappearing technique. In terms of speed, Deadpool and Daken are equal, Daken says that. So wouldn't that put Vamp above Daken?

Personally, I don't think it matters how a character in comics pulls off a feat. Spider-Man does it based on sheer superhuman speed, reflexes and spider-sense, Daken does it based principally off training and skill (and his mutation to a degree). Daredevil does it with skill and aid from radar sense ... I really don't think it matters if their physically 'as fast' as the other in the world of comics, as top tier skill is a notorious equalizer.

Of course, Daken and his pappy are probably faster than your average peak human due to mutation ... but it's their skill that allows them to pull off these feats. And it's said skill that allows Daken to contend with Vamp's enhanced reflexes IMHO. So yes, Vamp is probably super humanly fast (as are Deadpool and Daken to a degree I would say) and probably faster than Daken but then we must assume skill abridges that distance based off feats.

Do you have any showings for Vamp's damage soak to show how he'd outlast Daken in a knife fight?

#41 Posted by progenitor (7532 posts) - - Show Bio

@Outofthequestion: Actually, even when he was a human, Raiden deflected bullets with his high-frequency blade against the Arsenal Tengu towards the end of Metal Gear Solid 2 when Olga gave Snake the blade to give to Raiden. I would imagine as a cyborg ninja that his reflexes and speed would be vastly superior, especially considering that Raiden was able to easily keep up speed with a rampaging Metal Gear REX during Metal Gear Solid 4. As for what's been shown for his feats thus far in the trailers for Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance, at this point it seems like deflecting bullets with his blade is small time in comparison to what he's now capable of.

As for this battle, I think that Vamp's final battle with Raiden when they had a scout knife fight atop REX would be proof enough that skill-wise, Vamp should be able to hold his own enough against Daken. I would give a speed advantage to Vamp, seeing as not only was he able to run across water and run up alongside a vertical surface, but also easily deflected the firepower the SEALs fired at him when he simply spun around like a whirlwind with one of his knives. As far as strength goes, gauging Vamp is difficult. He was able to swim as fluidly as a seal in water that had absolutely no buoyancy, and he's sent the cyborg Raiden reeling with a kick, on the other hand, he's never shown a lot of benching power. I think most of Vamp's strength is in his legs, but that's just my observation.

A few things i'm surprised haven't been brought up would be the fact that Cyber himself admitted that Daken was a better fighter than himself, and Silas Burr not only helped train Wolverine, but he's been around just as long--if not longer than Captain America himself, so we're talking some serious props given to Daken for his combat abilities, here. Daken also took a good beating from The Thing and seemed to heal a rather short time afterwards. As far as soaking damage goes, I would put that in Daken's favor, considering a well-placed shot to the head of Vamp causes him to "go to sleep." Now, this isn't to say that the same wouldn't happen to Daken, IIRC, Winter Soldier put a well-placed carbonadium bullet through Daken's head and had him out for a little bit. I'm actually somewhat surprised that Vamp's shadow-stitching technique that he used against Raiden hasn't been applied, considering with a few thrown blades, Raiden was unable to move at all for a few seconds and was frozen in place, something that if he caught Daken with, would make him a sitting target.

Without phermones for Daken, this makes it a close one to call, but both have reasons as to how they could gain the upper-hand upon the other. As said, I think that Vamp could take Daken, but I also believe that Daken could take Vamp.

#42 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (5913 posts) - - Show Bio

And there we have the second reason why video game characters are hard to lineup against their comic book counterparts.

Game play mechanics.

The first is the disparity between CGI visuals and comic book art. CGI is, of course, more visually impressive and thereby misleading. Often portraying the exact same feats we see in comics, only in more visually 'spectacular' fashion. Boil it down though, and it's the same damn feat, perhaps even less impressive.

#43 Posted by nickzambuto (11435 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@nickzambuto:

Something that should be pointed out though, Daken isn't any faster than Deadpool? He directly states that, quote, "As loathsome as it is to admit it, I'm no faster than you are"

The only reason Deadpool couldn't tag was because Daken had his disappearing technique. In terms of speed, Deadpool and Daken are equal, Daken says that. So wouldn't that put Vamp above Daken?

Personally, I don't think it matters how a character in comics pulls off a feat. Spider-Man does it based on sheer superhuman speed, reflexes and spider-sense, Daken does it based principally off training and skill (and his mutation to a degree). Daredevil does it with skill and aid from radar sense ... I really don't think it matters if their physically 'as fast' as the other in the world of comics, as top tier skill is a notorious equalizer.

Of course, Daken and his pappy are probably faster than your average peak human due to mutation ... but it's their skill that allows them to pull off these feats. And it's said skill that allows Daken to contend with Vamp's enhanced reflexes IMHO. So yes, Vamp is probably super humanly fast (as are Deadpool and Daken to a degree I would say) and probably faster than Daken but then we must assume skill abridges that distance based off feats.

Do you have any showings for Vamp's damage soak to show how he'd outlast Daken in a knife fight?

As I've explained, Daken's disappearing technique won't work on Vamp. You read the debate right? So since Daken was only faster than Deadpool thanks to that, Deadpool deflecting bullets like Vamp doesn't matter. Hence Vamp=faster.

If Vamp didn't have body reading, sure Daken would probably own him. But since Vamp can read Daken's muscles and predict where he's moving before he does it, disappearing won't work.

As for Vamp's damage soak, his fight with Raiden is the best showing, as you can see on the first page. He gets stabbed dozens of times, cut up all the hell, and at one point dislocates his own neck to avoid Raiden's swing.

A headshot is usually enough to put him out for a couple minutes, so I won't say his regen is as good as Daken's. That said,

Daken can't exactly tank a headshot either, unless you can provide something that contradicts this.

#44 Edited by nickzambuto (11435 posts) - - Show Bio

@Super_SoldierXII said:

And there we have the second reason why video game characters are hard to lineup against their comic book counterparts.

Game play mechanics.

The first is the disparity between CGI visuals and comic book art. CGI is, of course, more visually impressive and thereby misleading. Often portraying the exact same feats we see in comics, only in more visually 'spectacular' fashion. Boil it down though, and it's the same damn feat, perhaps even less impressive.

It's not a gameplay mechanic. Raiden shrugging off a Shotgun shell to his stomach is a gameplay mechanic because it directly contradicts everything else that happens in the cutscenes. Deflecting bullets on the other hand, doesn't contradict anything. There's no reason to say it's not canon, especially considering Snake directly states that Raiden "might be able to block a bullet or two" after giving him the sword, and if you give him a CODEC call, he congratulates Raiden and tells him not to let all this practice go to waste.

Raiden also defeated Solidus Snake in a sword fight, who could do

4:50

that.

If anything, saying Raiden can't deflect a couple bullets is the inconsistency.

So we're back to what I was saying originally. Vamp is not only faster than Raiden, but Cyborg Raiden was well. Thus, your "Daken is faster than Deadpool" argument is void, especially considering Daken was only faster with his disappearing, and without it, admitted he's no faster than Wade.

@progenitor said:

I'm actually somewhat surprised that Vamp's shadow-stitching technique that he used against Raiden hasn't been applied, considering with a few thrown blades, Raiden was unable to move at all for a few seconds and was frozen in place, something that if he caught Daken with, would make him a sitting target.

I mentioned that a couple times, but I didn't make it a point, I figured it would be a cheap win, especially when Daken doesn't have pheromones in this fight.