#1 Edited by Floopay (9061 posts) - - Show Bio

Rules

  • Win via KO, Death, Incapacitation, Complete Submission, or by tap dancing flawlessly for 10 minutes uninterrupted
  • 10 minutes prep time (purely for positioning and readying an attack)
  • Standard Equipment
  • No calling for outside help
  • Random Encounter
  • No knowledge on their opponent

Battlefield: Streets of Gotham City

  • Both know they are readying themselves for battle, and have ten minutes to be outside Wayne Tower's front doors. They do not have to meet each other directly outside though, you can sneak around the streets, roof tops outside, etc.
  • Both have a picture of the person who they are going to fight, and it's FBI style, so they know all of each others outfits, costumes, what they look like with dyed hair etc, and again, 10 minutes prep, so dying hair and disguising oneself is probably not happening :P

Backlash (Wildstorm)

Cloud Strife (Final Fantasy 7 Series)

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#2 Posted by Floopay (9061 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright I made it, you can post first :P

Was that the correct Backlash?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#3 Posted by Buckshot (19356 posts) - - Show Bio

Backlash wins. Cloud can't stop him from tap dancing.

Moderator
#4 Posted by Floopay (9061 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot said:

Backlash wins. Cloud can't stop him from tap dancing.

heh, I would like some scans showing he knows how to tap dance! :P

I like to slip stuff like that in OPs once in awhile to see if anyone even read it before posting.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#5 Posted by Buckshot (19356 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: You didn't say anything about him tap dancing well. I may not have tap dancing scans, but I'm sure any amateur effort would suffice.

Moderator
#6 Posted by Floopay (9061 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot:

OP Edited, how now brown cow? :P

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#7 Posted by Buckshot (19356 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Wellll playyyyed...

Moderator
#8 Posted by Floopay (9061 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot said:

@Floopay: Wellll playyyyed...

The power of the thread creator :P

· Weapons: Fusion Sword

· Vehicles: Fenrir

Abilities:

  • Superhuman Strength - Capable of overpowering Sephiroth, and Loz on occasion. Can leap vast distances, support the full weight of a human being on the end of his sword (while he is in a weakened state), was able to push another being through several floors of steel and concrete, etc.
  • Superhuman Durability - Take two shots of fire materia head on, take multiple stab wounds, including one through the heart, and continued fighting. Was thrown through a steel/concrete wall and with little to no harm, was thrown into a steel roof, creating a crater in it, and still remained conscious (this was soon after being stabbed through the chest, and then stabbed multiple times around his body) while bleeding to death. Is able to survive in immense temperatures with no visual signs of damage.
  • Superhuman Speed/Reflexes - Capable of fending off multiple attacks moving faster than the eye can see. Capable of blocking multiple bullets fired at him from near point blank, and capable of deflecting them without actually looking. Was able to dodge a bullet being fired at point blank (as in, to his head).
  • Limit Breaks: As a battle progresses, Cloud gains his limit breaks. Each one is unique, and capable of a different effect. Everything from attack a person's soul directly, cutting through something previously thought to be indestructible, cone attacks, ranged beam attacks, and a few others.
  1. Braver - A powerful downward attack, creates a cone effect upon contact with the ground, the effect is capable of ripping through steel effortlessly
  2. Blade Beam - Cloud sends out a powerful beam from his weapon, capable of stopping an immense shockwave attack.
  3. Climhazzard - Was able to cut through something that was able to withstand his normal attacks, bullets that are strong enough to shoot through aircrafts, and several attack that would burn a man alive, or rip him in half with no effort.
  4. Cross Slash - Was able to knock a nigh invulnerable giant monster to the ground, and stunning it briefly (stun is an actually effect of the attack).
  5. Finishing Touch - A powerful attack, capable of repelling an opponent across immense distances.
  6. Omnislash - A 15 strike combo that is lightning fast and near unblockable, by even the most powerful opponents. Sephiroth, who was the strongest living being, and the greatest trained SOLDIER in all of FF7 was destroyed by this attack at the end of the original Final Fantasy 7 game.
  7. Omnislash v5 - A multiple strike attack directly into an opponents soul, lightning fast, and unblockable
  • Memory Mimicry: Cloud's training doesn't come from actual training. He has absorbed Zack Fair's entire SOLDIER career into his brain and therefore has all of Zack's training. It is said he has some of Sephiroth's training as well, and has some of Tifa's memories to boot. This is a result of his Jenova cells replicating other's memories to fill the gaps in his mind.
  • Flight/Levitation - Displayed on multiple occasions, Cloud is capable of self sustained Flight, though not used often, it allows him to change his trajectory when in midair, and continue midair fights. Doesn't seem to be overly skilled in using it beyond that extent.
  • Astral Projection - Cloud is capable of exiting his body and entering a soul state, and fighting other Astral Projected beings (displayed once, and displayed another time, but not in a fight)
  • Expert Biker: Capable of doing impossible turns, flipping his bike around, and performing acrobatics on his bike without it falling over. Fenrir is specially designed for him and his weapons.
  • Weapons Master: Cloud is a master with one handed, two handed, and two weapon styles with his Fushion sword. He has Zack's collective training with swords, h2h, and other melee weaponry.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#9 Posted by Strider92 (18016 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Damn he's pretty bada$$. Right now i'm completely knackered but i'll be back later to begin the debate after i've caught up on mah sleep!

#10 Edited by Strider92 (18016 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: First off good luck and hopefully this will turn into an interesting debate. I'll kick us off :)

After doing a little bit of research on Cloud i've seen that his durability is actually pretty good both penetrative and blunt trauma. This is going to limit how Backlash can damage Cloud due to the fact that he isn't particularly strong despite being part Kherubim (Zealot for example is a full Kherubim thus her stats are slightly higher). However what he does have are pair of Psi-whips that extend from his wrists (think Psylocke's Katana's in whip form) so while blunt trauma or penertrative damage might not be completely effective i'm pretty sure that pisonic powered attacks would deal the same amount of damage as on anyone else. These whips are powerful enough to 1-shot a military APC:

So as the whips are charged with psionic energy not only is it a bit like getting hit by some one who can TK but the also causes damage to people they ensnare (most people who are caught say that hey burn). He can also increase the amount of pisonic energy following down his whips to a lethal degree if he has to:

So while blunt trauma and penetrative damage may not be effective i'm fairly certain that if Cloud where to get caught in those whips he could definitely be injured.

I assume Cloud is a pretty smart fighter yes? (just asking because he might not be lol) If he is then he's going to realize that staying at a range with someone who uses long range whips is not a good idea as Backlash will have a much better chance of tagging him than the other way around. As whips are quite hard to wield in close proximity Cloud would most likely try to close in on Backlash to limit his options. However this puts him at risk from Backlash's incredible hand to hand ability. As a bit of back story Marc Slayton (Backlash) is 3000 years old and during that time has trained as a ninja, knight, military intelligence operative, USAF Sergeant Rescue Commando, USAF Colonel and special forces operative. Even more impressively he was the guy who was in charge of training Stormwatch (who we all know has had some pretty beastly combatants in). As a result Backlash is considered one of the best (going by feats quite possibly the best) hand to hand fighter in Wildstorm.

Even Zealot who is a full Kherubim and is over 10.000 years old is not as good in hand to hand combat as Slayton and she is damn good. Her best feat was being able to fight Midnighter in hand to hand combat for 3 hours:

And yet when she fought Slayton the first time despite the fact that he hadn't trained in a long time Marc was able to pin her in only a few moves:

and in a sparring match it was stated that Slayton was the better fighter out of him a Zealot:

So Marc's combat reflexes are pretty damn good. Not only that his speed is pretty good too:

So if Cloud were to engage Marc in close quarter combat he would have his work cut out for him due to Backlash's speed and combat reflexes. One other thing Marc has to his advantage is his misting. I'll give you a quick run down of how it works. Backlash can dematerialze his body on command rendering himself intangible however it only works for brief periods of time for example he might be able to go intangible for say 40seconds before needing to return to his solid state. It still helps though as it means if Cloud does put him in a position where Backlash can't avoid Cloud's blade he can dematerialze to avoid injury:

As I said before Slayton cannot stay permanently in this mist form and needs to return to being tangible again after brief periods of time so he wouldn't be able to remain intangible the entire fight and win that way but it would still save him from any attack he may not have been able to normally avoid.

#11 Posted by Floopay (9061 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92:

I think Backlash will be a pretty potent fighter here. Whips give him a clear advantage, and in h2h he definitely does have a pretty good edge. Not to mention if he does have over 3000 years of collective experience, there's nothing to discount that amount of training and experience.

That being said, I think Cloud is going to be a rough one to beat, his destructive capabilities with his sword are ridiculous. Here's a breakdown of Cloud's fighting scenes (not all of them, but here are some). I'm also posting the important parts, so you don't have to watch the full 20 minute videos.

Cloud vs. Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x20kde_final-fantasy-7-advent-children-mca_shortfilms

15:00 - 17:30 - Keep in mind, Cloud in this scene is affected by Geostigma, a virus that causes him severe pain and is wreaking havoc on his body/mind.

You get to see him use Blade Beam in this video, as well as show off some of his agility and reflexes. Considering he's pretty much terminally ill during this fight, it's not to be laughed at.

Notice how one of the bad guys can stop that moving motorcycle with one foot without it so much as budging his body in the slightest. Cloud isn't exactly going up against a lightweight in this fight.

Cloud vs. Bahamut SIN

This thing is immune to tank busting attacks, and Cloud comes in and finishes him off. Also he flies straight through it's breath attack

Loading Video...

Cloud vs. Loz, Yazoo, and Kadaj

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x20nnp_final-fantasy-7-advent-children-mca_shortfilms

4:10-6:40 - Motorcycle fight scene!

Notice Cloud's ability to maneuver that motorcycle and deflect bullets. This has to say something to his reaction time and situational awareness.

Cloud is also fending off assaults from Loz (if you pay attention you can see blue streaks across the screen from when he uses haste), while simultaneously deflecting bullets from Yazoo, and in order to do these things he spinning his bike around like a merry-go-round .

In a split second Cloud leaps off his bike, cuts the motorcycle Loz throws at him in half, then turns back around, deflects an oncoming assault for Loz, tanks a few hits, and then continues to deflect bullets and defend himself against Loz, and sometime throughout that portion of time he detaches a second blade from his Fushion sword, and begins blocking both Yazoo and Loz at the same time. Then he attacks both of them, destroys Loz's arm piece, and lands back on top of his motorcycle and speeds away from them. Notice how most of this portion of this scene is done in slow motion, meaning they were moving much faster than what is shown.

7:30-8:00 - Motorcycle Fight Scene continued!

9:30-10:20- Kadaj vs. Cloud! Part 1

Kadaj uses Lightning Materia to open the fight, creates a pretty big boom. Cloud is capable of dodging it, even though it is moving at speeds which look to be faster than a bullet.

Aerith cures Cloud's Geostigma (Aerith is the most powerful character in FF7, it's a long story).

11:30-14:30 - Kadaj vs. Cloud! Part 2

Kadaj opens with Lightning again. Notice the scene slows down to show how fast those things are supposed to be traveling, and Cloud is still a blur when he dodges them. Also, he fires more than 1 bolt, unlike he did originally.

Notice how fast Kadaj is. Clearly he outclasses Cloud in speed (probably because of Cloud's big weapon), nonetheless though, Cloud is more than adept at dodging and parrying his blows.

Kadaj manages to even disarm Cloud at one point, which is pretty impressive. Another thing to note is that Kadaj is only using one arm, because his other arm is occupied holding his mother's head in a box (it's a long story). However, even without the box I have serious doubts he could keep up with Cloud for long. As you can see Kadaj is fighting with everything he's got and pretty much making a last stand. While Cloud is having little problem keeping up, and spends most of the fight just waiting for the right time to finish him off.

Notice how you see no sign of Cloud being there, and then hear a gust of wind and he's there, in the scene where Kadaj is dangling from the ledge.

Cloud vs. Sephiroth!

Sorry, this is the best I could find of the full video.

Loading Video...

Notice how blocking an attack from Cloud is more than enough to put a huge dent in the steel plating of that building as Sephiroth first appears....

He uses Braver, and at the very end, that is Omnislash

Now to start this thing!

Cloud has dealt with a wide number of opponents: gods, super soldiers, monsters, animals, giant mech, magic users, ancient beings, psions, tk users, master marksman, etc. He's pretty level headed when putting up a fight against whomever he's against, it's not often that he's up against something new at this point in his career. That being said, Backlashshould prove to be quite a match. It's not often he goes against whip users (don't think he ever really does, with the exception of a couple Shinra battle troops), and none had a power set similar to Backlash.

I think Cloud's biggest advantage here is his raw physical advantage. Backlash is probably ahead of Cloud in training and experience, but Cloud isn't exactly lacking in those departments. However, Cloud was able to shove Sephiroth through several floors of a building composed mostly of steel and concrete. Over and above this he is capable of defending himself against multiple characters who are spamming an ability to move at sonic speeds or greater!

However, despite that being his best advantage, the hardest thing Backlash will have to deal with is Cloud's limits. If he pushes Cloud too hard and this battle goes too far, he'll be put against Omnislash, and I don't see him surviving that. The best way for him to achieve victory will be to end this as quickly as possible, the more strained, and the more injured Cloud becomes, the more limits he'll put out. This includes Blade Beams, Finishing Touch, Climhazard, etc. etc. Those are rough because they are even more devastating than his primary attacks, which as proven can cut through several feet of steel and concrete like a knife through butter.

This will be a good fight, if Backlash can time his dematerialization right, he should be able to hold his own here. However, fully blocking an attack from Cloud was enough to leave a crater in the steel beneath Sephiroth's feat, if Backlash's durability isn't that high, blocking an attack from Cloud may be sufficient enough to break bones, or possibly even KO him. So his best mode of defense is going to be dodging Cloud.

Again, good fight, but I think Cloud so far has the advantage defensively, and though Backlash has the advantage in range, I think Cloud has the advantage offensively as well. Backlash's greatest advantage here is his experience and his extra training. However, Cloud is also extremely well trained, because not only does he have his Shinra infantry training, but Zack's SOLDIER training as well, as proven in the "Maiden who Travels the Lifestream" novella.

The Maiden who Travel the Lifestream

Here's just a one page quote, feel free to read the rest if you'd like :)

http://ffviinovels.lhyeung.net/maiden/page15.php

Cloud was falling into the Lifestream. He wasn’t falling into it as the dead or as a soul. He was falling into the Sea of Mako alive, in his living body. He was going to pass out.

In the Northern Crater, he found out that his memories were false. He was just a doll who the mad scientist Hojo had transplanted Jenova cells into. A being made to merge with Sephiroth for his resurrection. But as a failure, he was an inferior clone that wasn't even given a number.

He was thrown out like trash in Midgar. Then he met Tifa. He met his "real" childhood friend, Tifa Lockhart. That time, with Jenova's power to duplicate memories, the memories that Tifa had of Cloud was instantly transferred to him. The missing parts were then filled with his own memories of being in Soldier to complete it all. That was how the patched up personality of Cloud Strife, based on the young man that existed in Tifa's conscious, was born. While that "Cloud" held many contradictions about himself, he built up a fictitious character so that he wouldn't be doubtful of himself. That character was himself.

However, the disguise was going to be stripped away.

It started to fail a long time ago. After coming into contact with many Sephiroth clones, the resonance inside Cloud's conscious uncovered many suspicions. Before long after Aerith's death, the dam he had built holding back his suspicions started to overflow. Using the anger he had towards Sephiroth and the goals he had in mind he somehow managed to suppress it but, that only lasted until he met the original Sephiroth.

In the Northern Crater before Sephiroth who had Jenova at his core, Cloud's brittle character fell apart. Right after that, even his conscious came under his control as Cloud himself handed over the key to summoning Meteor, the Black Materia.

Cooperating with the one enemy he hated and being made to turn against his own goal of stopping Meteor, Cloud's character completely collapsed. His false mosaic ego shattered into pieces and in his empty conscious, only the despair of how he was no one but a failed Sephiroth clone remained.

And so...

Now no longer of use, Cloud crossed into the Planet through the Northern Crater, - abandoned into the Lifestream.

With his ego lost, what was going to happen if the highly concentrated Mako, containing the aggregated memories of the Planet, entered his system?

He was equal to a dried up sponge soaking up a liquid. His blank conscious and vast nonsensical memories were all going to be buried away. This state in which someone was expected to be extremely intoxicated was commonly refered to as "Mako poisoning."

With his mind being infringed beyond the point of recovery, Cloud floated within the Lifestream. Before long, his living body that shouldn't be in the Lifestream, was ejected through one of the natural Mako energy geysers into the nearby coasts of Mideel. With his character lost, he was now a crippled person in confusion.

The Maiden who Travels the Lifestream

This is the cannon ending to Final Fantasy 7, that is, Cloud hacks Sephiroth to pieces with Omnislash

Cloud and his companions defeated Sephiroth. Sinking into the Planet's scar and absorbing the Mako energy, the original Sephiroth was revived with his wounds fully healed. In the battle that unfolded afterwards, the will he inherited from Jenova, his own ambitions and the strong thoughts he had inside him granted him formidable power but, the humans still managed to crush him in the end. Sephiroth's physical body was destroyed and full of wounds, he retreated.

But only Cloud knew about his retreat. Having been exposed to Jenova's cells, there were traces of Sephiroth's conscious in him - Part of his conscious resonated with it. Cloud could feel the existence of his remnant somewhere inside the Lifestream, continuing to obstruct Holy even now.

Letting only his conscious enter the Sea of Mako, Cloud went in pursuit of him. Riding through the currents, his old enemy was waiting for him. Sephiroth's soul was not yet destroyed and was still a threat to the Planet.

In the world of conscious energy, their swords clashed with each other as they confronted. Sephiroth, the strongest Soldier and the most admired person, tore his long sword across Cloud like a beam of light. But Cloud wasn't afraid. Believing that he had won, Sephiroth raised his long sword for his next strike and at that instant, Cloud struck out at him unleashing all the strength he had. His large blade slashed into Sephiroth's body during that brief opening. His attack opened up another opportunity for him as he struck out at Sephiroth again. It was an unstoppable storm of slashes - fifteen unavoidable attacks one after the other, cut through Sephiroth.

The mad apostate angel smiled boldly. But the damage he had taken was far beyond what he could endure and his spiritual body started to fall apart as he laughed. Beams of light blasted out from inside his body as if they were cutting him apart. Sephiroth was destroyed. Cloud's nightmare that had been continuing since five years ago in Nibelheim finally came to an end.

The Holy that was no longer obstructed immediately came into action.

This time, Cloud had separated from his body and was now in an absentminded state but, in the abyss of the Mako world, he saw a hand there to guide him. It was white and delicate - it reminded him of the hand that gave him a flower in Midgar. Unconsciously, he stretched out his hand...

His conscious returned to his body. Tifa’s hand grasped his as the ground below him collapsed away.

If the hand hadn't been there to guide him then he would have been at the bottom of Hades right now. It was good timing. Cloud realized that he had been saved.

But it was all too late.

Midgar was about to become the impact point for the Meteor from the skies and it was already too close to the ground. The gravitational force between the Planet and the giant meteor stirred up whirlwinds that mercilessly revolved on the plate of the upper city. As a result, the Holy energy that stretched in between the Planet and the meteor only increased the destructive power between the two instead of having the effect it was supposed to have.

At this rate, not only will the residents of Midgar taking refuge in the slums get involved but, the Planet would be damaged so badly that it would be beyond recovery. Sephiroth's plan was crushed now but, everyone knew that the worst was yet to come.

The Planet was meeting its demise.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#12 Edited by Strider92 (18016 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: The video on him being effected Geostigma and still fighting and breath attack is impressive and enforces my previous thought that without the whips Backlash would have a hard time hurting him. Clouds situational awareness is also impressive but I don't think this is something Backlash cannot match. As he was the trainer of Stormwatch he regularly engaged in training scenario's with the team(albeit less experienced than him but had a lot more fire power). For example in these scans of him training Stormwatch he dodges lasers while at the same time fending off attackers. Fending off more than one opponent is one thing but doing that at the same time as dodging laser fire really shows spatial awareness:

Backlash is considered the fastest/most agile member of Stormwatch (this was pre-Midnighter but given his feats and fights with Zealot its not inconceivable that he is at least on par with Midnighter in speed). Clouds advantage are those long range jumps he can make. Backlash can't match those kinds of jumps. However he is extremely agile and should be able to dodge a lot of what Cloud has to throw at him. He easily evades lasers and gunfire on a regular basis:

Not to mention while Cloud could put some distance between Backlash and himself I think Cloud would quickly realize that was a mistake due to the range of Marc's whips.

There is also something in the OP that I would like point out:

@Floopay said:

Rules

  • Win via KO, Death, Incapacitation, Complete Submission, or by tap dancing flawlessly for 10 minutes uninterrupted
  • 10 minutes prep time (purely for positioning and readying an attack)
  • Standard Equipment
  • No calling for outside help
  • Random Encounter
  • No knowledge on their opponent

Battlefield: Streets of Gotham City

  • Both know they are readying themselves for battle, and have ten minutes to be outside Wayne Tower's front doors. They do not have to meet each other directly outside though, you can sneak around the streets, roof tops outside, etc.
  • Both have a picture of the person who they are going to fight, and it's FBI style, so they know all of each others outfits, costumes, what they look like with dyed hair etc, and again, 10 minutes prep, so dying hair and disguising oneself is probably not happening :P

The parts i've put in bold. From what i've seen of Cloud he is the offensive type. Backlash however uses stealth alot taking out the enemy before they know he's there is his preferred tactic as he's demonstrated quite a few times:

This part of the OP favors Backlash quite a bit as its his preferred MO. If he can get the drop on the enemy he will take it. As I said Cloud doesn't strike me as the stealthy type (I could be wrong?) so in the initial few moments of the fight will most likely be in Marc's favor. Another thing I will point out is in the OP it says that they are unaware of the others powerset. This again favors Backlash slightly more than Cloud as from what I can see Cloud doesn't have any "tricks" up his sleeve (again if i'm wrong let me know) thus with the advantage of stealth Slayton could use his misting ability to confuse Cloud and get the drop on him:

This could allow Backlash to get a free hit which could prove game changing if he were to tangle Cloud in his whips. These whips are pretty strong they where able to hold three brutes in place and more impressively they briefly held Helspont in place. I put emphasis on briefly because no matter how brief it was it was still an admirable feat considering Helspont goes toe on toe with Mr. Majestic:

So if he did manage to ensnare Cloud which is very possible given the OP stipulations about stealth not mention as they are mental projections the move at the speed of thought (see the training scans they say it there) . Then Cloud would have to struggle a bit to get out of them allowing Backlash to inflict some damage.

The omnislash is also pretty impressive (are there any stipulations as to how many times Cloud can use it?) but even without misting Backlash's durability is not negligible. He took a full on blast from Helspont and didn't die (which as I explained earlier is impressive due to Helspont being a very powerful bad guy in the Wildstorm-verse hence the reason he was surprised Backlash was even able to put up a little bit of fight):

So while Clouds attacks are very deadly to say the least i'm confident that the combination of Backlash's durability, misting and speed will allow him to escape quite a few blows.

@Floopay said:

However, despite that being his best advantage, the hardest thing Backlash will have to deal with is Cloud's limits. If he pushes Cloud too hard and this battle goes too far, he'll be put against Omnislash, and I don't see him surviving that. The best way for him to achieve victory will be to end this as quickly as possible, the more strained, and the more injured Cloud becomes, the more limits he'll put out.

This is very interesting because it seems both Backlash and Cloud when pushed to far resort to really drastic measures. When Backlash gets pushed he can pull an "Alien" which is when he dematerializes then reforms inside the enemy and tears his way out from the inside. Its not very pretty:

As they are unaware of each others powers this could prove a fatal error if Backlash is forced to use this as Cloud will not know what he's doing and he will also be in reasonably close proximity due to him wanting to limit the range of Backlash's whips. However the same could be said for Cloud. If both of them are pushed to their limit and choose to go all out then it may come down to whoever can land the attack first and with two very fast individuals such as these it could go either way.

I'm not sure it would come to this however as while Cloud is more offensive than Marc I see that bit of stealth working in Backlash's favor allowing him to get the initial advantage which will probably decide how the fight goes.

I'm going to sleep i'll be back to pick this up tomorrow :)

#13 Posted by Floopay (9061 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92:

I figured Backlash was the stealth type, hence why I made the OP the way I did. I like to debate with all characters using their strengths as much as possible without putting too much of a hindrance on the other. So I figured because you could take whatever rooftops you pleased or set up an ambush, hide in the shadows, etc. it would really allow you to play to Backlash's strengths, while it would simultaneously allow me to use Cloud's strengths to take the streets on Fenrir (his motorcycle), and be ready for such an attack.

This isn't Cloud, but this is Zack, the character who's SOLDIER training and memory Cloud has copied. Zack isn't anywhere near Cloud's level of enhancements, but he is still able to push Cloud out of the way of a sniper shot. He had no idea the sniper was even there.

Loading Video...

Watch 20:00 to the end.

Same guy, Zack, was able to take down a full platoon of Shinra Soldiers single handedly, the last 3 soldiers deliver the killing blow, though he survives for quite awhile after they shoot him in the head...at least that's the cannon ending. When you play it it send unlimited soldiers at you until you die. Again, he's not nearly as enhanced as Cloud, and Cloud literally absorbed all his training and his abilities.

Loading Video...

Cloud vs. Loz, Kadaj, Yazoo and several creeps. Again, while affected by Geostigma

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x20k2t_final-fantasy-7-advent-children-mca_shortfilms

Notable Scenes:

10:00-12:30 -Cloud Fighting on Fenrir against 2 Super Soldiers. While Kadaj summons creeps against him.

Omnislash

I don't see Backlash surviving this, this is an attack directly through somebodies soul, he'll shred him on a metaphysical level.

Limit Breaks

Essentially, when Cloud overexerts himself, he gains these limits. He can choose from any one of a number of them at any given time. However, Omnislash seems to only be usable when he's all but beaten.

Backlash's Durability

I have no doubts on it, it may allow him to survive the shrapnel and the debris Cloud will undoubtedly leave in his wake. However, a direct blow from Cloud was slicing through several feet of steel/concrete like a knife through butter. Sephiroth blocked his attack, and it put a two foot deep, seven foot wide crater in a steel structure.

Range

Cloud can actually throw his swords, very accurately might I add.

Cloud throws his sword while riding Fenrir with pinpoint accuracy, and it returns to him like a pillar. Additionally, he slices through steel pillars with relative easy whilst riding.

Loading Video...

Cloud's appearance in Dirge of Cerberus part 1, he easily dodges several explosions on his motorcycle. Then leaps and fights someone who is bullet-fast as far as combat speed goes. He appears not too long after this in the game, completely unharmed, so obviously he survived the attack without injury, and fought off Rosso the Crimson (the lady who confronts him)

Loading Video...

Notice, Omega Weapon (the giant thing in the center of the city), sends out a shockwave while siphoning power from those reactors. the shockwave is powerful enough to start causing heavy damage to that reactor. Cloud shows up and severs one of those tendrils siphoning energy. Notice how he is the only one who stays within the blast zone in order to sever that tendril. Everyone else is well outside the radius.

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Counter Argument:

This is a close battle, like you said, Backlash has a ranged advantage, but he's not the only one with range. Cloud has Blade Beam, and he can throw his weapon with pinpoint accuracy. Additionally, while he's on Fenrir (his motorcycle), he has a huge speed advantage. Over and above this, I think Backlash can close the distance right off the bat, but a sniper couldn't even get the jump on Zack, who was nowhere near Cloud's level of enhancements. Cloud has all that training, plus a huge advantage in all physical capacities over Zack, I don't think it's going to be an easy shot for Backlash.

I do agree training and experience goes to your guy, I am not going to retract that statement. But again, Cloud isn't exactly a slouch in that department. His physical advantage really should allow him to close that gap between the two of them.

I think Backlash can hold his own, I really do. However, like I said, blocking an attack from Cloud could prove fatal or at the very least, very devastating to ones health. Getting hit by Cloud's blade is nothing short of fatal, the guy was able to knock Bahamut on his but with a strike, and was capable of pretty handily defeating everything that's been thrown against him.

The only person who he was truly outclassed by in their fight, was Sephiroth. And that's not saying much, considering Sephiroth is the best their is in the FF7 universe.

Just so you know, this is Sephiroth playing around in a training simulation with his friends...

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Backlash will prove to be a good fight, I don't doubt that, but Cloud has overcome so much, and has such high damage resistance across the board. Plus the guy survived being stabbed in the heart, on at least two separate occasions by the same guy (Sephiroth), and then was shot through the heart moments after the second time he was stabbed in the heart (Yep, that happened)!

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#14 Edited by Strider92 (18016 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: There is a possibility that I am misinterpreting the 1st video so correct me if I am. Was the bullet fired from the chopper? If it was then although that is a very good reaction feat on Zack's part there's a high chance that the part at 21:33 where you see Zack realize they're in danger is most likely him hearing the chopper. For someone with enhanced hearing (i'm guessing Zack is enhanced but just not to the same extent as Cloud) hearing the chopper and them being on the run it wouldn't be hard to put two and two together. So while that may have been a good reaction feat it doesn't automatically mean Cloud could dodge a planed attack from Backlash who I can say with a fair amount of certainty is quieter than any helicopter/gunshot.

Backlash is capable of similar feats. Granted he most likely heard the gun click as the guy pulled the trigger but he was still able use his whips to prevent the shot despite having the laser already trained on him at close range and also being tired from fighting a telepath:

Killing all those guards is a good feat but for an enhanced soldier who can push his friend out of the way of a bullet without knowing where its fired from killing a squad of guards seems like a mid-range feat as they are basically fodder correct? Or have they done anything to put them above that?

What are the stipulations for the omnislash? once he reaches his limit can he use it as many times as he wants? Or is it a 1 time wait then recharge kind of thing?

I have no doubts that Cloud's ability throw his sword is good given his reflexes and reaction speed he's probably exceedingly accurate. However i'm sure that Backlash is far more dangerous at ranged combat not to mention if Cloud were to take that approach it puts him at great risk from getting disarmed then having to fight Backlash in h2h which is a battle i'm confident Slayton could win given his feats in h2h (already posted above). I realize Cloud's sword can return to him but its still quite a risk to take.

Although Fenrir does give Cloud very good mobility (Fenrir is the name of the bike right? lol) it also hinders him in the fact that bikes aren't exactly discreet. If he is using a bike for this fight the noise will lead BL straight to him and also hinder Clouds ability to hear his approach. Also i'm not sure a bike would fair too well against whips that are capable of destroying a military APC with one hit (already posted above), slicing through concrete and cutting up robots with relative ease:

As you've said Cloud when pushed is pretty scary but so is BL. He can pull an "Alien" (posted above) but another thing he can do if he gets desperate is use his pisonics. His whips are projections of a pisonic nature and he can focus those abilities into telekinesis blast powerful enough to throw back Helspont:

Backlash pretty much sums it up himself in this panel:

As I said in my first post the thing that struck me most about Cloud was his durability. Although i've never played an FF game I seem to recall Cloud (at least I think it was Cloud O.O) being impaled on a VERY long katana by Sephiroth I think. So i'm well aware his resistance to physical and penetrative damage is really really good and definitely outclasses Backlash in that department. However unless he has come across any form of pisonic projection attack then its safe to assume that Cloud's durability to that type of attack wouldn't be anywhere near as good as its not a truly physical attack. As i said Backlash is nowhere near as durable as Cloud but he does a few other feats (the Helspont one being the most impressive) such as being burnt and sucked into space:

So there is a chance Clouds more energy based attacks will be less effective than his sword.

I will also bring this up again incase it was missed the first time. Backlash's whips are incredibly fast. Because they are effectively mental projections they move at the same speed Marc can think. In this scan for example his whips are quoted as "grabbing with the speed of thought":

That is very damn fast and would definitely keep Cloud running around.

Without the stealthy advantage Backlash would be in trouble here but given the initial advantage, the speed his whips can move at and the nature of his attacks (not being purely physical). I think those few first minutes of the fight will be enough to swing it in Marc's favor.

#15 Posted by Floopay (9061 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92:

It's not from the chopper. The guys in the chopper actually never reach Zack in time. Had they shown up in time, Zack would have survived and probably would have been a playable character in Final Fantasy 7, however, he never survived long enough to reach those events. So they made a prelude called "Final Fantasy 7: Crisis Core", starring Zack as the main protagonist.

And though it's not "psionic" energy, Cloud was once soaked in a container of radiation that was composed of the living life force of the planet. He was in this for 2 years IIRC. He also has immense resistance to elemental attacks for what that's worth.

As far as those soldiers, well, obviously none of them are named, but they are SHINRA infantry, and second class members of SOLDIER. They are wielding rocket launchers, automatic weapons, grenades, sniper rifles, and some of them are very skilled swordsman (SOLDIER members).

Additionally, throwing his sword doesn't leave him unarmed. As you can see in my first post of Cloud's abilities, the Fushion sword is actually 6 swords, the only one he threw was the big one, he would still have 5 other swords to fight with if that one was knocked down. And he would still probably be able to retrieve it.

Cloud still has flight to consider, this is from when he went insane (jump to 6:30 to about 7:40)

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Omnislash is a one time use when he gets there. However, he moves at hypersonic speeds while performing it, and it's an attack directly against Backlash's soul, so there's that.

I don't think he'll be on Fenrir long if Backlash is on the rooftops, but he'll definitely be harder to hit while on it. Additionally, his ability to leap vast distances and either leap instantly away from Backlash or instantly be right on top of him. His attacks are nothing less than lethal, a single slice should be more than enough to cause devastating attacks, and they should be relatively lethal.

Anyway, anything else you wanna get in here, I think I'm pretty much ready for votes. Though I can dig up more if you wanna debate more.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#16 Posted by Strider92 (18016 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: I am quite happy to call it vote time. I have other scans but they don't really enforce anything other than what i've already brought up and I prefer to refrain from repeating things. Thanks for educating me on Cloud. I know a little more about FF now for future reference :p.

Just out of pure curiosity how do you think Cloud would do against Dante (DMC)? If Dante didn't have Devil's Trigger, Quicksilver and his other haxed abilities. Just an all of sword fight/slugfest.

#17 Edited by Floopay (9061 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@Floopay: I am quite happy to call it vote time. I have other scans but they don't really enforce anything other than what i've already brought up and I prefer to refrain from repeating things. Thanks for educating me on Cloud. I know a little more about FF now for future reference :p.

Just out of pure curiosity how do you think Cloud would do against Dante (DMC)? If Dante didn't have Devil's Trigger, Quicksilver and his other haxed abilities. Just an all of sword fight/slugfest.

I haven't played much DMC, and I'm a huge FF7 fanboy. So it's hard to say, as I'm pretty bias.

Alright, voting time, anyone on this list have an opinion on the topic?:

@Buckshot

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#18 Posted by Floopay (9061 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump!

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#19 Posted by Laurcus (1308 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@Floopay: I am quite happy to call it vote time. I have other scans but they don't really enforce anything other than what i've already brought up and I prefer to refrain from repeating things. Thanks for educating me on Cloud. I know a little more about FF now for future reference :p.

Just out of pure curiosity how do you think Cloud would do against Dante (DMC)? If Dante didn't have Devil's Trigger, Quicksilver and his other haxed abilities. Just an all of sword fight/slugfest.

It would depend a lot on the version of Dante used. He gets more powerful the older he gets. I think DMC 3 Dante, (youngest version) would lose to Cloud in a straight up sword fight. DMC 2 Dante, (oldest version, and yeah, the order is all messed up, timeline wise it goes 3, 1, 4, 2) is unbelievably powerful. In his base form he's much stronger than any previous incarnation, able to effortlessly beat the most powerful demon lord in his universe. Mundus, also known as The Devil, was an immensely powerful demon lord, and the main antagonist of the first game. Dante had difficulty with Mundus with a huge power amp, (in gameplay it's about a x5 damage increase, and I suspect in story it also increases his durability and regeneration) and originally, it was Dante's father Sparda that defeated Mundus. In DMC 2, Dante fights The Despair Embodied, which is the evolved form of an amalgamation of demon lords collectively known as Argosax The Chaos. Argosax was so powerful even Sparda failed to defeat him. And in Argosax's more powerful form, DMC 2 Dante kills him effortlessly without even using DT.

The best match for Cloud would probably be DMC 4 Dante. I think it'd be a close fight between them if Dante wasn't allowed his DT or any special abilities/weapons/styles.

Oh, and am I allowed to vote on this? I notice you guys have a list there.

If my vote counts, I vote for Cloud. The guy's OP, and I just see him having a lot more ways to win.

#20 Posted by Floopay (9061 posts) - - Show Bio

@Laurcus:

Anyone can vote here, I just tagged a bunch of people because those are the usually suspects when it comes to voting.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#21 Posted by Floopay (9061 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone care to vote?

This is open for anyone to vote on, I just don't want this to be decided by a single vote, so comicvine...cast your ballots!

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#22 Posted by Strider92 (18016 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: Hah completely forgot to call the voters in for this lol.

#23 Posted by Floopay (9061 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92 said:

@Floopay: Hah completely forgot to call the voters in for this lol.

If you know anyone who would like to thumb through this and cast a vote call them out. The more voters the better in my mind. :P

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#24 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (9386 posts) - - Show Bio

Reading, have my vote by tomorrow.

#25 Posted by Strider92 (18016 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay: You've called most of the ones I was thinking of but i'll try and get a few others in here.

Any of you mind giving your opinion :)?

#27 Posted by darktiger (4829 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

@Laurcus:

Anyone can vote here, I just tagged a bunch of people because those are the usually suspects when it comes to voting.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

I will vote too

#28 Posted by XImpossibruX (5535 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel bad I wasn't invited to the voting party, will vote tomorrow though.

#29 Posted by Esquire (3909 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to give Backlash a slim majority, largely due to misting. Awesome debate on both sides!

#30 Posted by nickzambuto (18518 posts) - - Show Bio

@Floopay said:

Anyone care to vote?

...

Well ok maybe later.

Online
#31 Posted by Strider92 (18016 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@Floopay said:

Anyone care to vote?

...

Well ok maybe later.

No cookies for you until you do!

#32 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

Ill vote tonight

#33 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (9386 posts) - - Show Bio

Both were excellent setup debates.

But @Strider92: gets my vote.

#34 Posted by Pokergeist (23180 posts) - - Show Bio

Great match. I have to give it to Strider as well as his Scenarios and examples of what Backlash would do was more convincing.

#35 Posted by Floopay (9061 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright, close this tonight, any more votes?

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#36 Posted by Strider92 (18016 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone else gonna throw in their opinions? The more the merrier!