#1 Posted by Fetts (4466 posts) - - Show Bio

Rules: 
-No prep. 
-Morals on. 
-Victory is won by any means necessary. 
-Data is unarmed. Captain America has his shield. 
-They start 40 ft. away from each other. 
-Scenario: Data beams down to the surface of Earth only to find that something went wrong during transport and that he has landed in a 21st century Earth. Captain America sees Data beam down, and already assumes that Data is an invader. Data has no wish to kill Captain America, but has to defend himself.
-Location: 
 

Central Park 
 vs 
#2 Posted by 80sBaby (1344 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok. Guess I'll start.

Captain America was given the Super Soldier Serum, which granted him Enhanced physical & mental attributes. He's a master of all forms of martial arts and one of the best HtH fighters on Earth. He's also a tactical genius and great leader of men (not that that has any bearing on this fight.)

I will admit that Cmdr. Data is probably faster and stronger than Cap but so what? The good Captain has fought and beaten plenty of people who physically out-class him. Data would be another in a long line to fall.

In short, Cap wins. It's what he does.

#3 Edited by Fetts (4466 posts) - - Show Bio
@80sBaby said:

Ok. Guess I'll start.

Captain America was given the Super Soldier Serum, which granted him Enhanced physical & mental attributes. He's a master of all forms of martial arts and one of the best HtH fighters on Earth. He's also a tactical genius and great leader of men (not that that has any bearing on this fight.)

I will admit that Cmdr. Data is probably faster and stronger than Cap but so what? The good Captain has fought and beaten plenty of people who physically out-class him. Data would be another in a long line to fall.

In short, Cap wins. It's what he does.

I'm well versed in Captain America's abilities. 
 
Faster? Care to name names? Cause I'd love to hear this list. Logically, people who are faster than Cap should beat him. If they're faster than him, than they'd be fast enough to deny any opportunity to utilize any superior skill or intellect Cap might have over somebody. Take Deathstroke vs Batman. Batman is more skilled than Slade because he's studied a huge variety of martial arts. Slade doesn't have any martial art training. But Slade still beats the crap out of him because of his superior physical stats. Slade is so fast that he doesn't give Batman a chance to utilize his martial arts. So in short, speed > skill. 
 
I'm going to post my respect thread in case you'd like info on Data. 
 
  www.comicvine.com/myvine/fetts/...data-respect-thread/87-87237/
 
This is what I see it coming down to. In most cases, Captain America either starts a fight out with either a shield toss or a shield bash. Due to the fact that Data sees in slow motion, he can be prepared for anything. If Cap throws his shield, he can catch it and toss it aside. If Captain America goes for a shield bash, Data can put his hand out and completely stop him in his tracks.  
 
Captain America's biggest factor is his shield, since it provides such a balance of defense and offense. If Data tried to punch it, it would have no effect. And if Captain America got him, chances are pretty decent that it'd KO Data, depending where he was hit. Fortunately though, Data has the speed and strength to block any attacks from the shield and disarm Captain America of his shield. 
 
Of course, the fight isn't over then. This would then turn into a H2H combat fight. Captain America may be well-trained in martial arts and physical enhancements to boot, but all of those martial arts will end up completely backfiring on him. Data has the ability to copy other people's movements to an exact precision, and has done this before in combat. Any punch or kick Captain America tries can be copied by Data at the exact moment Steve throws one. However, one disadvantage is that Data lacks superhuman agility. So if Captain America tries any agile martial arts, Data can't copy it. Although, he doesn't have to. Like the shield, he can simply block or dodge any type of blow Steve tries to land on him. And from there Data can proceed to kick his arse. 
 
So in conclusion, not only does Data have superior speed and strength, but he has all of Captain America's moves perfectly copied.
#4 Posted by 80sBaby (1344 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fetts: Cap has fought Spider Man (who's faster and stronger than Data,) hitting him multiple times before Peter could react.. He's countered Quicksilver, dodged other speedsters, as well. In your respect thread, you also claim that Data has FTL reflexes due to him dodging lasers, right? Well, Captain America does the same thing:

Cap dodging beams while falling.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4413/captainamerica26604ff3.jpg

Cap dodges beams under zero gravity.

http://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv123516rougherpv4.jpg

http://img421.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv123518rougherbg7.jpg

Cap blocks multiple beams in different areas.

http://img458.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv300506mm5.jpg

Again blocks multiple beams in different areas.

http://img475.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv300807tk8.jpg

Cap trapped in a floor designed to spin with beams coming from all direction.

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/6793/avengersv103217or6.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/4910/avengersv103218yi9.jpg

Cap in volume 3 dodging beams again.

http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav303913jt7.jpg

As far as Data simply stopping Steve with an out-stretched arm, that's very doubtful. You yourself place Data's strength at about the 2-4 ton level. Cap's bashed people with far higher strength than that. If he can make Hulk or Namor stagger back with his hits, then Data's not going to stop him, either.

I'd say Captain America may be just as durable as Data, too. Below are some examples:

Cap falls, notice the Quinjet is close to the buildings height.

http://img490.imageshack.us/my.php?image=36314bd8.jpg

Jumps out of helicopter leaves small foot craters on ground.

http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page30wa0.jpg

http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page31tq3.jpg

Jumps out of helicopter onto vehicle.

http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=punisherbloodglory0335ct8.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=punisherbloodglory0336ch8.jpg

Entire building falls down as Cap, as the Red Scull uses Cap's durable body as the wrecking ball "ouch".

http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca320405tm4.jpg

http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3206zu8.jpg

http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3209jj1.jpg

http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3210dy2.jpg

http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3211aj9.jpg

http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3212ti2.jpg

http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3213of7.jpg

http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3214co6.jpg

http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3215uc1.jpg

http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3216pz3.jpg

So, Data doesn't physically out-class Cap enough to guarantee a win. In fact, Data's never fought anyone like Captain America whereas Data's just another android/robot/etc. Steve's faced many times before. Copying Captain America's moves after he uses them won't get Data the win. Cap is a master of improvisational fighting and can mix things up. Data's main problem is that he thinks like a computer so lacks imagination. Cap will take note of that and capitalize.

#5 Posted by Fetts (4466 posts) - - Show Bio
@80sBaby: Sorry I haven't gotten to this. Been busy. I'll try to get on it tomorrow.
#6 Posted by 80sBaby (1344 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fetts: No problem, man.

#7 Posted by bump1010 (159 posts) - - Show Bio

@BeefiestName: No offense man but this is suppose to be a one on one debate between 80'sbaby and fetts. You should at least wait until they are done before commenting.

#8 Posted by BeefiestName (82 posts) - - Show Bio

@bump1010 said:

@BeefiestName: No offense man but this is suppose to be a one on one debate between 80'sbaby and fetts. You should at least wait until they are done before commenting.

Deleted, was new to the forum and missed that part of it.

#9 Posted by bump1010 (159 posts) - - Show Bio

@BeefiestName said:

@bump1010 said:

@BeefiestName: No offense man but this is suppose to be a one on one debate between 80'sbaby and fetts. You should at least wait until they are done before commenting.

Deleted, was new to the forum and missed that part of it.

No problem. Welcome to the site :)

#10 Posted by Fetts (4466 posts) - - Show Bio
@80sBaby: Alright. I'm not gonna be able to get on this today either. Can I just can back to you on Saturday? That's when I'm mostly likely gonna be free.
#11 Posted by Fetts (4466 posts) - - Show Bio
@80sBaby said:

@Fetts: Cap has fought Spider Man (who's faster and stronger than Data,) hitting him multiple times before Peter could react.. He's countered Quicksilver, dodged other speedsters, as well. In your respect thread, you also claim that Data has FTL reflexes due to him dodging lasers, right? Well, Captain America does the same thing:

Cap dodging beams while falling.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4413/captainamerica26604ff3.jpg

Cap dodges beams under zero gravity.

http://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv123516rougherpv4.jpg

http://img421.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv123518rougherbg7.jpg

Cap blocks multiple beams in different areas.

http://img458.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv300506mm5.jpg

Again blocks multiple beams in different areas.

http://img475.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengersv300807tk8.jpg

Cap trapped in a floor designed to spin with beams coming from all direction.

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/6793/avengersv103217or6.jpg

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/4910/avengersv103218yi9.jpg

Cap in volume 3 dodging beams again.

http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav303913jt7.jpg


I know Cap has tangled with Spider-Man, but I wouldn't quite say Peter is faster. Data has FTL reflexes. He perceives things very slowly. You'll find in my respect thread that he can read entire detailed pages in less than a second. The only reason why I'd give the edge to Spider-Man is his massive strength advantage, as he's a 25 tonner. As for Quicksilver, I honestly wouldn't put it past Data to tag him too. Data's moved his head away from projectiles traveling at the speed of light. Quicksilver does not travel at the speed of light, thus Data should be fast enough to simply lift an arm and clothesline him. 
 
I also said in my respect thread that it's debatable that the laser wasn't moving at the speed of light. The drilling laser had its targeting laser fixed on Data and then a concussive laser fired through the targeting laser. So you can't actually make the determination that the concussive laser was moving at the speed of light. It is a laser, so it is POSSIBLE that it moved at the speed of light, but in many cases concussive lasers in the world of fiction don't actually move at the speed of light, and it's probably the case for all the scans you've shown me. Fortunately, Data has a more legitimate FTL reflexes feat, which is when he dodged a phaser blast fired by Ishara Yar. Phasers can fired during warp speed, thus they have to be at least moving at the speed of light. But Captain America's been hit by things moving far less than the speed of light way too many times.
 
Scan 1: That gun fired an energy blast. That doesn't mean it was a laser and thus you can't assume it moved at the speed of light. 
 
Scans 2-3: These were actually lasers. But again, they're probably not actually firing at the speed of light. Furthermore, you'll notice how Cap says he has to time/predict when they're going to fire, so it technically wasn't pure reflexes. 
 
Scan 4: Again, just because they're energy blasts doesn't mean they're moving at the speed of light. 
 
Scan 5: More energy blasts. I'm also going to point out that this scan and the last scan were training sessions. Meaning chances are good Cap's done them before (and in the first one he's stated he has). Meaning chances are good he knows where they're going to fire from already. 
 
Scans 6-7 :Energy blasts. No proof that they're lasers. 
 
Scan 8: Same as above. 
 

As far as Data simply stopping Steve with an out-stretched arm, that's very doubtful. You yourself place Data's strength at about the 2-4 ton level. Cap's bashed people with far higher strength than that. If he can make Hulk or Namor stagger back with his hits, then Data's not going to stop him, either.

Firstly, that's more of a durability issue than a strength issue on their part. Secondly, I kinda want to call PIS on both those accounts. 
 While that's very impressive compared to an average human, I'm pretty sure both Hulk and Namor have been hit by missiles (faster and thus have a harder punch) and hardly felt it. 
 
If I did my math correctly (which is very possible I didn't because the results don't seem real), Cap can run just about 168 mph based off that AvX fun fact. Data stopped a taxi at full speed with an outstretched arm with no effort. So 168 mph is probably around a taxi at full speed. So yes I would say Data could stop Cap with an outstretched arm. Another thing Data could do is grab the sides of the shield, which would cause Cap to stop his momentum. That would be the better choice because Data could use that opportunity to disarm Cap of his shield. But either would work. 

I'd say Captain America may be just as durable as Data, too. Below are some examples:

Cap falls, notice the Quinjet is close to the buildings height.

http://img490.imageshack.us/my.php?image=36314bd8.jpg

Jumps out of helicopter leaves small foot craters on ground.

http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page30wa0.jpg

http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page31tq3.jpg

Jumps out of helicopter onto vehicle.

http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=punisherbloodglory0335ct8.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=punisherbloodglory0336ch8.jpg

Entire building falls down as Cap, as the Red Scull uses Cap's durable body as the wrecking ball "ouch".

http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca320405tm4.jpg

http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3206zu8.jpg

http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3209jj1.jpg

http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3210dy2.jpg

http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3211aj9.jpg

http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3212ti2.jpg

http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3213of7.jpg

http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3214co6.jpg

http://img73.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3215uc1.jpg

http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ca3216pz3.jpg

 No he's definitely not. Data is bullet proof. Captain America is not as he was killed by one. 

So, Data doesn't physically out-class Cap enough to guarantee a win. In fact, Data's never fought anyone like Captain America whereas Data's just another android/robot/etc. Steve's faced many times before. Copying Captain America's moves after he uses them won't get Data the win. Cap is a master of improvisational fighting and can mix things up. Data's main problem is that he thinks like a computer so lacks imagination. Cap will take note of that and capitalize.

Ya he kind of does. True Data's never faced a combatant like Cap but Data is not simply just another canon fodder android. He's supremely intelligent, he makes billions of calculations per second, he has a 2-4 ton strength level, he perceives time to such a slow degree that he can dodge phaser blasts (which travel at the speed of light), and can copy Cap's skill. Does that honestly sound like a canon fodder android to you? I'm afraid you misunderstand about Data's copying abilities. Data can copy movements at the exact moment somebody else does the same movement. Like this kinda: 
 So say Cap throws a punch. Data can copy that same exact punch at the same exact moment, and land the same hit Cap would have tried to land on Data with greater force (as he can move his hands faster than the human eye and has a 2-4 ton level of strength) before Cap can even land it. 
 
Data is actually unique in that aspect. While he did lack imagination for a while, this problem was eventually fixed with the help of his friends. An example of his imagination is when he came up with the idea of posing as B4. Or the time he beamed the weapons of a Reman squad away. 
 
I'd also like to point out that Captain America is a human. While he has a very impressive amount of stamina and can take some blows, he can still tire out as a fight goes on. And the more hits he takes out the faster he'll begin to tire out. Meanwhile Data is an android, and does not feel pain or fatigue. Thus his fighting ability is not tarnished. Cap's best chance is to finish the fight quick and that's simply not happening. Data is already faster, stronger, smarter, and is just as skilled as Captain America is.
#12 Posted by Nefarious (20461 posts) - - Show Bio

BUMP.

#13 Posted by Fetts (4466 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright, 80sBaby hasn't responded to my PM and I've been waiting awhile. So I'm just gonna start the voting. 
 
@nickzambuto@Sherlock:  @CadenceV2  @Esquire  @Floopay  @YoungJustice 
  @YourNeighborhoodComicGeek @HigorM@Stompa:  
Votes please!

#14 Posted by Fetts (4466 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't know if that worked... Gonna give it another try. 
 

@Esquire@YourNeighborhoodComicGeek@nickzambuto@Sherlock@CadenceV2@Floopay@HigorM@Stompa@YoungJustice:  
Votes?
#15 Posted by YoungJustice (6846 posts) - - Show Bio

Short and sweet :D

Going with Fetts here.

#16 Posted by God_Spawn (37904 posts) - - Show Bio

Fetts.

Moderator
#17 Posted by nick_hero22 (6871 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fetts said:

@80sBaby said:

Ok. Guess I'll start.

Captain America was given the Super Soldier Serum, which granted him Enhanced physical & mental attributes. He's a master of all forms of martial arts and one of the best HtH fighters on Earth. He's also a tactical genius and great leader of men (not that that has any bearing on this fight.)

I will admit that Cmdr. Data is probably faster and stronger than Cap but so what? The good Captain has fought and beaten plenty of people who physically out-class him. Data would be another in a long line to fall.

In short, Cap wins. It's what he does.

I'm well versed in Captain America's abilities.

Faster? Care to name names? Cause I'd love to hear this list. Logically, people who are faster than Cap should beat him. If they're faster than him, than they'd be fast enough to deny any opportunity to utilize any superior skill or intellect Cap might have over somebody. Take Deathstroke vs Batman. Batman is more skilled than Slade because he's studied a huge variety of martial arts. Slade doesn't have any martial art training. But Slade still beats the crap out of him because of his superior physical stats. Slade is so fast that he doesn't give Batman a chance to utilize his martial arts. So in short, speed > skill.

I'm going to post my respect thread in case you'd like info on Data.

www.comicvine.com/myvine/fetts/...data-respect-thread/87-87237/ This is what I see it coming down to. In most cases, Captain America either starts a fight out with either a shield toss or a shield bash. Due to the fact that Data sees in slow motion, he can be prepared for anything. If Cap throws his shield, he can catch it and toss it aside. If Captain America goes for a shield bash, Data can put his hand out and completely stop him in his tracks. Captain America's biggest factor is his shield, since it provides such a balance of defense and offense. If Data tried to punch it, it would have no effect. And if Captain America got him, chances are pretty decent that it'd KO Data, depending where he was hit. Fortunately though, Data has the speed and strength to block any attacks from the shield and disarm Captain America of his shield. Of course, the fight isn't over then. This would then turn into a H2H combat fight. Captain America may be well-trained in martial arts and physical enhancements to boot, but all of those martial arts will end up completely backfiring on him. Data has the ability to copy other people's movements to an exact precision, and has done this before in combat. Any punch or kick Captain America tries can be copied by Data at the exact moment Steve throws one. However, one disadvantage is that Data lacks superhuman agility. So if Captain America tries any agile martial arts, Data can't copy it. Although, he doesn't have to. Like the shield, he can simply block or dodge any type of blow Steve tries to land on him. And from there Data can proceed to kick his arse. So in conclusion, not only does Data have superior speed and strength, but he has all of Captain America's moves perfectly copied.

That is flat-out false, Deathstroke received extensive martial arts training in the Army and he was also thoroughly trained by the assassin Natas.

#18 Posted by Stompa (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

I give it to Fetts. When i read the OP i thought Cap would take this but @Fetts: made a solid case for the android.

#19 Posted by Fetts (4466 posts) - - Show Bio
@nick_hero22: Really? I was not aware of this. Would you so happen to have scans? 
 
@YoungJustice@god_spawn@Stompa: Ty! :D
#20 Edited by nick_hero22 (6871 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fetts said:

@nick_hero22: Really? I was not aware of this. Would you so happen to have scans?

@YoungJustice: @god_spawn: @Stompa: Ty! :D

I don't have the scans available, but I believe there was some mention of Natas training Deathstroke when Green Arrow hired him to improve his martial prowess.

http://www.comicvine.com/natas/29-59931/

#21 Edited by jashro44 (21920 posts) - - Show Bio

@nick_hero22 said:

@Fetts said:

@nick_hero22: Really? I was not aware of this. Would you so happen to have scans?

@YoungJustice: @god_spawn: @Stompa: Ty! :D

I don't have the scans available, but I believe there was some mention of Natas training Deathstroke when Green Arrow hired him to improve his martial prowess.

http://www.comicvine.com/natas/29-59931/

You are correct.

Not really sure where the idea that Slade has no fighting skills comes from....

#22 Posted by tomlikesfries (4670 posts) - - Show Bio

Going with Fetts. Too bad 80sBaby didn't get a chance to counter your argument.. Nice debate nevertheless.

#23 Posted by Fetts (4466 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44: Eh. I suppose it silly to think a badass like Slade wouldn't be trained in martial arts. I just figured that he didn't really need them with his enhancements, and I've never seen or heard anything about Slade training in martial arts until now.
#24 Posted by TwoGunGunnar (90 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain America's a super hero. He eats androids and robots for breakfast. They're cannon fodder.

#25 Posted by Fetts (4466 posts) - - Show Bio
@TwoGunGunnar: Did you even read the debate?
#26 Posted by jashro44 (21920 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fetts:His enhancements help but his skill is a huge part of why he does what he does. The main problem with Slades enhancements are that they make it hard to gauge his skill since we don't know what he can do without them and he said they are an advantage.

Shows vomit inducing pressure point.

That's all that comes to mind for Slades skill that I can say couldn't have been 100% relied on by his enhancements. That and Slades training from Natas (which has been posted all ready). There might be more though.

#27 Edited by Fetts (4466 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44: I have some of those scans. And I am aware that Slade has skill. However I always thought that that skill came from his intelligence. I never considered that to be martial arts.  
 
In the fight with Luthor I really don't see a whole a lot of martial arts. I see great reflexes, punches and kicks thrown, and a whole lot of badassery. But there's nothing there that would make me think that he's a pro martial artist. Except for maybe the judo throw. In the fight with Bronze Tiger I could see some martial arts training in there. In the fight with Azrael (which I've never seen before and it was very cool if I might add) also has sword fighting, which is technically martial arts I guess. In his fight with Zantanna, I'd see that more as an intelligence feat that martial arts feat. 
 
The point is, I don't see Slade pulling a whole of Jackie Chan moves very often. Maybe some standard karate, judo, and some kickboxing. But other than that, he really doesn't strike me as much of a martial artist in my opinion.
#28 Posted by jashro44 (21920 posts) - - Show Bio

@Fetts: In the showing with Lex Luthor it is stated on the the 4th scan that Lex capable of matching Slades speed so reflexes couldn't have helped him against Luthor at all since they were equal in speed. Skill is the only answer why he didn't get stomped IMO. The showing with Zatanna wasn't meant to be there that he won it was there that he used a pressure point which shows great technical knowledge. We see Slade pinch her under the rib cage.

Slade does use punches and kicks a lot but a lot of martial artists do in comics. The majority of times I see skilled fighters fight I mostly just see punches and kicks more often the things like pressure points. All though I guess we can just agree to disagree.

#29 Posted by Fetts (4466 posts) - - Show Bio
@jashro44: Skill? Sure. But I just don't see a lot of martial art moves there. And I'm not sure if that "technical knowledge" would be considered martial arts. I suppose it could be. 
 
True enough. But I see martial artists actually utilizing their martial art skills a lot more frequently than Slade does.