This match is between me and @darktiger. Darktiger is going to use Winter Soldier:
I'm going to use the Arkham version of Batman:
The rules:
They start 30m apart from each other.
Jason is Pre/New 52, both versions are allowed as far as feats goes.
Batman can get feats from everything that has to do within the Arkham Universe (tie-ins, movies, games etc...).
Jason has his standard gear (equipment he uses in character).
The same rules for equipemnt for Batman as well.
The fight is at night.
No PIS/WIS/CIS feats from either character.
Game mechanics are not counted as feats for Batman.
Morals on, bloodlust off.
This is where the fight takes place:
Remember, This debate is between @captain_batman_ftw and @darktiger. Do not interfere unless it's you asking to get tagged for votes, or giving a compliment.
@darktiger I'll make my case now, and explain why I think that the Arkham version of Batman wins over Jason.
Starting with my tactic, I'll not say that Batman can outmatch Jason in terms of H2H, but instead, he'll take him out with a massive edge in speed and striking power. Before you say that Jason held his own against Batman in Batman Under The Red Hood, no he did not. Batman was holding back all the time due to the fact that it was his back-from-the-dead partner, and when he ran out of patience, Batman gave Jason a worse beating than what Joker gave him.
To show that Batman has enough striking power to take out Jason in not so much time, I'll demonstrate his striking power:
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0:34, you can see the size of the explosion here.
At 1:04, he tanked this explosion.
At 1:30, he tanked it.
2:02. Tanked it.
2:13, Killer Croc has no visible damage, and he was laughing, so you can't say that Croc was already exhausted from the explosions.
Batman managed to finishes him off with his striking power at 2:41.
I'm not trying to say that Batman has more damage output than these explosions, but rather that he has enough blunt force to take out someone this durable. Jason has never showed this kind of durability to say that he can tank attacks like this for very long.
Over to Jason's guns now:
Jason is very accurate, I know, but he's not tagging Batman who dodged bullets from deadshot, bullets from a swat team with assault rifles (if I remember correctly, bullets from ARs travels twice as fast as bullets from hand guns), ice blasts, a missilie, and all these were dodged by him after they were shot.
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0:15, Batman dodges an ice blast while fighting someone. He does the same thing at 1:13. He was even out-pacing this same blaster at 1:15.
0:18, Batman was dodging bullets fired by Deadshot, and before you say that he was aim-dodging, that's not what he was doing. He was legitimatly dodging bullets after they were fired, because Deadshot in the Arkham games easily hit a bullseye with his firearms.
At 1:52, he dodges a missile after it had been shot.
To further prove my point, he doing this (skip to the points mentioned, and you'll see all the bullet dodging):
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0:04
0:24.
There are more bullet dodging feats, but I think I've gotten my point across. As for how fast Batman himself is, here is an example:
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Skip to 0:40, and the guys couldn't even perceive him, even though he was right in front of them.
Another thing I'll say is that Jason's punches aren't going to do very much against Batman either. He was tanking hits from Bane, being thrown into the ground by Killer Croc, thrown into a wall by Bane (the super strong one at the end of Arkham Origins), being punched through a stone wall by Bane and other durability feats as well.
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12:30, he tanked getting thrown into a brick wall by Bane.
At 12:39, he tanked multiple hits from Bane and he tanked one hit that sent him flying through the brick wall.
I think I've gotten my points across, and how Batman wins. Seeing forward to your reply :)
Bucky with prep outsmarts Wolverine (with Adamantium) and nearly beats him to death if it wasn’t for the Adamantium and healing factor. Good thing he had backup.
Here he gets a upperhand over wolverine who stalemated captain america and defeated Shang Chi and Iron Fist two of who are among marvel's best combatants and can arguably beat Batman H2H.
Against Giant Werebear
Bucky has been depowered, his arm set to a normal human's strength arm. He has not ate or slept well for days because of Gulag forcing him to fight in a Arena for 2 months against super powered foes. Here he is forced to fight and defeat a Werebear!
Hasn't slept in days and still beats super powered foes with metal arm note that his arm is powered down to human form and he has no weapons. This proves he can fight bigger and more powerful opponents thus being able to dish and contend with batman.
MARKSMANSHIP:
Hawkeye fires 3 arrows at Bucky. Bucky manages to shoot them all in midair.
Here Bucky manges to shoot Hawkeye's arrows in midair exemplifying agility and marksmanship, Hawkeye(is arguably marvel's greatest marksman) who's tagged daken and bullseye.
Daken has heightened senses and bullseye is one of marvel's greatest marksman this shows that Winter Soldier is no slouch in the accuracy department.
Times shield throw perfectly so Senator’s face does not get shot.
Bucky's marksmanship mixed with his stealth spells Uh-Oh for batsie as we all know our legendary assasin uses guns daily and could tag bats multiple times though the bat suit maybe bulletproof it is not invincible thus giving the place bucky can snipe or headshot bats for the win.
EQUIPMENT:
Handgun can be equipped with explosive rounds strong enough to blow up an Assault rifle into pieces:
His special Handgun can take out a rifle which can potentiall-oneshot bats in my next slide I will go into Bucky's Stealth and other equipment and explain why he beats Arkham's Batman more often than not. While Bats has been known to dodge bullets he hasn't faced adversaries as stealthy as Winter Soldier. His Fire Power + Stealth equals a K.O or dead Batman
This is a field I feel Winter Soldier outclasses Arkham's version of Batman in a quick display of one of marvel's top power player/hand to hand combat
In all honesty, I don't think that Arkham Batman can defeat Bucky, I think Arkham Batman can defeat Jason Todd. I just want to debate, so I agreed to match up against you while you're using Winter Soldier.
That said, I just want to debate, and there are some few flaws you have in your arguments...
Here he gets a upperhand over wolverine who stalemated captain america and defeated Shang Chi and Iron Fist two of who are among marvel's best combatants and can arguably beat Batman H2H.
It doesn't make sense for Bucky to get the upperhand over Wolverine when Wolverine has stomped Captain America (in Avengers vs X-men) and defeated Cap on another instance, and when Bucky faced of a clone (or something like that) of Captain America, he did not fair well at all. He didn't even hold his own against a clone of Steve (IIRC), so this makes zero sense that Bucky somehow manages to get the better of Wolverine, when Logan has speed capable of surprising Spiderman and regurarly speedblitz people.
Hasn't slept in days and still beats super powered foes with metal arm note that his arm is powered down to human form and he has no weapons. This proves he can fight bigger and more powerful opponents thus being able to dish and contend with batman.
Arkham Batman has defeated titans (multiple sometimes), Bane and Killer Croc (5+ tonner who easily tanks explosions). In fact, I'd say that Batman has superior striking power to Bucky by a large margin (discluding the metal arm) going by Bucky's normal arm and close to his metal arm's striking power.
Here Bucky manges to shoot Hawkeye's arrows in midair exemplifying agility and marksmanship, Hawkeye(is arguably marvel's greatest marksman) who's tagged daken and bullseye.
Daken has heightened senses and bullseye is one of marvel's greatest marksman this shows that Winter Soldier is no slouch in the accuracy department.
I don't know why you brought in how accurate Bullseye is when you should actually be showing his evasive manouvres. He shot Hawkeye's arrows and that's good and all, but I'd say that it isn't very impressive (compared to Arkham Batman) considering that they're just arrow, when Batman has blocked a bullet from a turret:
Bucky's not tagging Batman when Batman has so many feats that says that he is a complete bullet tiemer.
Bucky's marksmanship mixed with his stealth spells Uh-Oh for batsie as we all know our legendary assasin uses guns daily and could tag bats multiple times though the bat suit maybe bulletproof it is not invincible thus giving the place bucky can snipe or headshot bats for the win.
Where did the sniper suddenly come from? Also, stealth won't work on Arkham Batman. He has something called Detective vision, which allows him to see through walls, see how many hostiles there ae, enable weapons with different colors to see what they carry. Stealth won't work on Arkham Batman and bullets won't tag him either.
His special Handgun can take out a rifle which can potentiall-oneshot bats in my next slide I will go into Bucky's Stealth and other equipment and explain why he beats Arkham's Batman more often than not. While Bats has been known to dodge bullets he hasn't faced adversaries as stealthy as Winter Soldier. His Fire Power + Stealth equals a K.O or dead Batman
Bullets isn't going to tag Bats and stealth won't work as I've showed. This is how Detective Vision works:
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Skip to 9:44, you can see how it works there. It shows how many hostiles there are (which is good considering that stealth won't work), who is armed (they're painted in orange because they carry firearms), he can see through walls and see their condition. It also paints traps as orange (if they're weapons) as well, IIRC, so spears won't work. So no, stealth won't work and it would be much easier to dodge bullets from Bucky when he's already aware that he carries firearms.
H2H can go either way since Arkham Batman has mastered nearly all martial arts known to man.
Your argument has plenty of flaws and in this portion of the debate I will call those flaws out to enhance my own argument
First of all you said Bucky didn't fare well at all against 50s Cap. Why is this statement inaccurate because Bucky has beaten him on multiple occasions.
Against 50s Captain America:
50s Captain America has 2 ton strength. Bucky has commented that 50s Captain America is twice as strong, fast and durable as Steve. Bucky also commented that Steve is 3 times faster, stronger and durable as himself. This makes 50s cap 6 times all the stats of Bucky who is only peak human. No big deal, Bucky still kicks his ass.
This time Bucky did not have a shield, only his arm. He still beats 50s Cap and then shoots him multiple times. We all know 50s Cap will be back again.
Here The First fight Bucky simply defeats 50s Cap soundly and kicks his ass the exact opposite of what you said he didn't do and the second fights he defeats him then shoots him with a pistol multiple times keep in mind 50s Cap is on par with Steve in H2H and twice as strong, fast, and durable. Bucky himself said Cap is 3 times stronger than him meaning Bucky is 6 times weaker than 50s Cap Steve is able to lift a ton this means, 50s Cap is able to loft at least 4000 pounds.
You also claim that Wolverine has heightened and acute sense but Bucky is able to get the drop on wolverine after following him for a month undetected. Bucky has even been a mystery to shield and has killed hundreds undetected a secretive and deadly assassin if wolverine wasn't able to detect Bucky so you think batman can. We're talking about a guy who can smell you from miles away and has killer animal like instinct. If Bucky plans to end the fight quick he can maneuver around the terrain and sneak bats with a knife through the chest and unlike Wolverine, Batman is Human and can be killed by Knives. If Bucky hides around the Terrance can load up his suit with bullets from his Ak-47. This is unlike anyone batman has ever played before most of his fights are directly straight up and not sneaky and ranged like Bucky's tactics.
STEALTH
Follows Wolverine for 3 days without Wolverine knowing.
Bucky with prep outsmarts Wolverine (with Adamantium) and nearly beats him to death if it wasn’t for the Adamantium and healing factor. Good thing he had backup.
I'm not saying Bucky is a better fighter than wolvie I'm saying he clearly outsmarts him and gets the drop on him going toe to toe with him through which I have said will take out bats
Winter Soldier is on par with Steve in the fighting apartment and here is a list of proof
Did you feel the last two fights weren't clear enough who was better? Well here Bucky is defeating Batroc soundly. Batroc results to cheap tricks to get away.
Here is concisely a list of people who gave Cap a run for his money and Bucky beats all of them some with flying colors, and for the info Wolverine admires Bucky's fighting skills and think he is one of the best in the Marvel -U stating he would put his money on Bucky against Daredevil. The Daredevil who stalemated Iron Fist and gave Spidey and Captain America Good Fights. The Iron Fist who danced and played with the X Men and fought black panther too a standstill. Need I say more. Hey I'm not a fan of ABC logic but it works here simply because all of these characters are street level and comparable in skill.
You said Bats has more striking power. This is true but One of Bucky's key weapons that enable him too beat bats has way more. His cybernetic arm
Mechanical arm:
Capable of punching through metal, the narrator says the whole robot is made of metal:
His arm is capable of punching holes and chunks out of metal now imagine what happens if he dishes out these punches on batman's gut or face or etch. Wolverine is invincible with admantium while bats is only peak human I imagine Bucky sneaking him with a punch as an opener and unloading the gear on bats then.
Hid medal arm has been capable of even effecting Iron Man Armor which is made out of titanium alloy, fought hulk and manhandled Spiderman also Wrecker who is a Class 40 and a thor villain. I believe these two outclass bane and killer croc monumentally who are as you said only 5 toners at best
Agaisnt Ironman:
Although Ironman was not trying to harm Bucky, this fight shows how quickly Bucky can think on his feat and turn the tide to his favor:
Your argument has plenty of flaws and in this portion of the debate I will call those flaws out to enhance my own argument
First of all you said Bucky didn't fare well at all against 50s Cap. Why is this statement inaccurate because Bucky has beaten him on multiple occasions.
I never said 50s Cap.
You also claim that Wolverine has heightened and acute sense but Bucky is able to get the drop on wolverine after following him for a month undetected. Bucky has even been a mystery to shield and has killed hundreds undetected a secretive and deadly assassin if wolverine wasn't able to detect Bucky so you think batman can. We're talking about a guy who can smell you from miles away and has killer animal like instinct. If Bucky plans to end the fight quick he can maneuver around the terrain and sneak bats with a knife through the chest and unlike Wolverine, Batman is Human and can be killed by Knives. If Bucky hides around the Terrance can load up his suit with bullets from his Ak-47. This is unlike anyone batman has ever played before most of his fights are directly straight up and not sneaky and ranged like Bucky's tactics.
Did you decide to ignore what I said about the Detective Mode? Stealth won't work because the terrain they will be in automatically tells Batman how many hostiles there are regardless if you're behind, in front or beneath you. How is Logan's smell comparable to Detective Mode? Detective Mode and smelling people are two different things, and Detective Mode will automatically show Batman where Bucky is and if he's armed or not. Using stealth is something very bad for Bucky, because Batman can use that to his advantage and use stealth on Bucky when he sees that Bucky is trying to use stealth, which won't work due to Detective Mode. I feel like you just ignored the video I showed for Detective Mode, so here it is:
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Skip to 9:44, you can see how it works there. It shows how many hostiles there are (which is good considering that stealth won't work), who is armed (they're painted in orange because they carry firearms), he can see through walls and see their condition. It also paints traps as orange (if they're weapons) as well, IIRC, so spears won't work. So no, stealth won't work and it would be much easier to dodge bullets from Bucky when he's already aware that he carries firearms.
It's pretty clear that stealth won't work on Batman when Batman has something like this which helps him massivly, specially to see if Bucky's armed or not. '' Hostiles detected. 10 Armed.'' This is evidence right in front of your nose, that Bucky won't be able to use stealth on Batman when the Detective Mode scans the entire area due to the Batcomputer.
I'm not saying Bucky is a better fighter than wolvie I'm saying he clearly outsmarts him and gets the drop on him going toe to toe with him through which I have said will take out bats
Winter Soldier is on par with Steve in the fighting apartment and here is a list of proof
No, I'm saying that Bucky shouldn't be capable of doing any damage to Wolverine when Wolverine has done stuff out of Bucky's and Cap America's caliber. Unless Bucky has prep, I don't see him coming anywhere near close to defeating Logan. Not to mention that Logan is pretty smart combat wise himself.
Here is concisely a list of people who gave Cap a run for his money and Bucky beats all of them some with flying colors, and for the info Wolverine admires Bucky's fighting skills and think he is one of the best in the Marvel -U stating he would put his money on Bucky against Daredevil. The Daredevil who stalemated Iron Fist and gave Spidey and Captain America Good Fights. The Iron Fist who danced and played with the X Men and fought black panther too a standstill. Need I say more. Hey I'm not a fan of ABC logic but it works here simply because all of these characters are street level and comparable in skill.
Bucky's not even tagging Matt if Matt doesn't want him to, let alone come close to defeating him. This is the same Matt who easily deflects bullets all day, everyday. Not to mention that he has agility feats on par with Spiderman (to my knowledge). Bucky's not defeating Wolverine, nor Daredevil. If Bucky actually shows the feats to do stuff such as this, I'd reconsider this, but he's not defeating any of those high level street levellers. ABC logic never works when it comes to street levellers.
Hius metal arm didn't do anything to Iron Man when he hit him with it. All Tony was doing, until Bucky ripped his face off, was telling Bucky to stop it. He didn't even get harmed. He barely flinched. None of that proves that Bucky actually has superior striking power to Batman with his metal arm when Batman's been capable of taking out Killer Croc with his mere punches when Croc was easily tanking explosions.
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Skip to 0:33 to see how powerful the explosions were. He tanked this same explosion multiple times, but when Bruce came, he made Croc a new anus.
Stealth won't work on Batman, and Bucky's not taking out Bats with his punches due to the fact that Batman has the durability to tank them. I mean, a guy who tanks a fall from 40-50 meters shouldn't have trouble tanking Bucky's explosions. I've made my last post. Do you want to go on more round?
@@ First of all you said Bucky is not capable of doing damage to wolverine but if you look at the two scans I just showed you which I doubted you paid attention too he clearly gets the drop on wolverine and goes toe to toe with him and he is second to cap in combat I've showed you also a bunch of fights where he best caps villains with flying colors look again
Bucky has proven his fighting ability against creditable fighters such as Black Widow, Sin, Crossbones, Batroc the Leaper, Wolverine and more. Although he has doubted himself by comparing his physical ability to Steve's super soldier abilities (Approximately 3 times stronger and faster than himself), with his lack of super soldier formula and ability to go toe to toe against many of Steve’s rogues and win proves that he is on a level close to Steve's fighting ability.
Against Wolverine:
Bucky takes out a group of Ninjas and Wolverine (Without Adamantium).
Bucky with prep outsmarts Wolverine (with Adamantium) and nearly beats him to death if it wasn’t for the Adamantium and healing factor. Good thing he had backup.
Did you feel the last two fights weren't clear enough who was better? Well here Bucky is defeating Batroc soundly. Batroc results to cheap tricks to get away.
Beats Batroc the Leaper a villain who has given cap trouble on several occasions
And Crossbones who has whipped bullseye into shape Bucky has done everything Steve has done and you claim Daredevil is above his level. I say how dare you?(lol, did you get it)
EQUPMENT:
He can also send electrical shocks to another person which can stun batman enough for Bucky to get a kill shot
His metal arm as I've said before stun the likes of wrecker who is class 40 and his metal arm can be detached and be controlled which means he can send his arm at batman as he pleases which can be his opening attack.
Bucky slices AK-47 in half with arm throwing the shield:
Bucky's Winning Drive:Bucky is gonna first send his arm at bats which hits then they comes shoots with a pistol batman dodges and uppercuts him then they go into a bros feint each other and strike each other but Bucky's metal arm hits batman right across the chin and he drops Bucky shocks batman with his emp on his arm then goes in for the kill with the knife.
Bucky has more weapons get that can set him up for the kill- Cybernetic Arm, Knife and pistol, Emp
More striking power+deadlier fighter= K.O for Batman
@darktiger: You need to expound on your strategy, flesh out your strengths of your combatant and how well they will go against the enemy combatant's weaknesses. If seems like you scan bombed a bit too much in this debate. You did explain a bit of it but you didn't touch on tactics. Another thing you should have emphasized was how Bucky is more willing to kill than Batman with his moral set. You still have a long road of improvement buddy. But if you ever need tips or advice feel free to ask me or any of the other exponentially more active debaters now.
Very interesting, Arkham Batman was very agile and skilled, I would say he's almost on par with his comic book counter part, but sadly the comic book counter part has metrics to compare to like Wildcar, Lady, Shiva, etc.
@darktiger: Sorry man, but I couldn't see a real argumentation from your part, at least not the one I like to encourage on new debaters. Most of your posts came with a bunch of links from @slimj87d's Bucky Respect Thread. You should not resort to such thing in a CaV. The fewer images you need, the better will be your debating prowess. That being said, my vote goes to @captain_batman_ftw.
@slimj87d: Yeah, Arkham Batman is a high street leveller in my opinion (Captain America, Deathstroke, Daredevil, Post Crisis Batman etc). In all honesty, I like this version of Batman more than his mainstream version.
He is close to the Post Crisis version. Arkham Batman has sick agilty and reaction time.
There's not much for me to really say that hasn't been said already. Like others are saying, @darktiger had more than enough feats but just needed to expand a bit. I generally try to use the PEEL method: point, evidence, explain, link. First, you make a point (for instance, Bucky has the accuracy to hit Batman). Then you add evidence, your scans. After this, you explain why each scan is impressive and how it relates to the CaV. Finally, link back to the original point.
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