Celestiosapien vs The Celestials.

ONE, UNO, A SINGLE Celestiosapien from the Ben 10 Universe...

VS.

The ENTIRETY of the Celestials from the Marvel 616-Universe!

Blood lusted, morals off, no split or multiple personalities, and to the death.

Celestialsapiens are omnipotent

When dealing with beings of such immense power, isn't that word a no limits fallacy?

What feats do the Sapiens have to back up their claim of omnipotence?

In an episode I just watched a few days ago the universe was destroyed and Ben used Alien X to create another one that was identicle, so the curret Ben 10 universe was created by Ben/Alien X.

Keep in mind that I said ONE Celestiosapien against the Celestials.

Celestiosapiens

ONE.

The episode was ripe with PIS. Alien X created the universe from Ben's memories, which should be impossible, since Ben is not omniscient. Also if you pay close attention in the end, the world is not the same. There are differences and even Ben notes that some things are not the same.

Celestial wins very handily. There is no way Alien X is beating Arishem.

CelestialS

Ok nearly identicle, but the fact remains that the current univese is his/their creation.

@lordofallhumans: Franklin Richards created a universe under his bed sheets and he is below Celestial level. The cosmic cube beings, who have universal level reality warping powers, even say that they are below Celestials. Galactus, who in his fight with Scarier and the Other which nearly destroyed the multiverse, can't even beat a handful of Celestials. Alien X lacks the feat to suggest it could kill a Celestial, let alone the entirety of the 616 Celestials.

lol @ Alien X being omnipotent, people throw the term omnipotent around to loosly.

@omgomgwtfwtf: I do that too, it's called dreaming... Jkjkjk

- I just wanted to make a joke out of "created a Universe under his bed sheets" part.

Overall I agree on your point.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make, it was asked that a feat be provided regarding them being called omnipotent and one was given. Brining up Franklin making pocket universes (not the same feat at all), is supposed to prove what exactly? considering he is not omniscient either wouldn't he suffer from the same PIS you give to Bens feat anyway? I was not arguing for either side.

@lordofallhumans: That creating universes doesn't make you omnipotent and that Alien X is not omnipotent. But, I apologize if my response sounded hostile. I was merely trying to ensure that people didn't get the wrong idea about the feat you posted.

Beings that can create universes from scratch are generally seen as being in the omnipotent range, that level of power is why beings from the Ben 10 universe believe them to be a such. What wrong idea will be drawn? Being legitimately omnipotent in fiction can always be questioned, but we do say beings like TOAA and such are and it is mainly due to them being creators of entire realities. If AlienX/Ben performed their feat through time manipulation or something then I could see the feat not being preceived as that big of a deal, but IIRC the universe was destroyed (and they were unaffected by it), they told Ben as much so they had to make a new one from scratch, seems like a feat that should at least get you nominated for omnipotence. Back to using Franklin and his pocket universes, although that does not make him omnipotent in Marvel proper he would be omnipotent within his own creation, the way most reality warpers are. Alien X became the creator of the new univerese and can can still warp reality (apparently on a universal scale) anyway it sees fit within that universe.

@lordofallhumans: Azmuth himself said if Aggregor would absorb the power of even a baby celestialsapien he would gain omnipotence.

The problem with the feat, like I said before, is that they created the universe from Ben's memories. Ben doesn't have omniscience and such, they shouldn't be able to create the universe in his image. Also when they did recreate the universe, they failed to create it perfectly. Despite their awesome power even Alien X has limits. Dwayne Mcduffie has stated that Alien X cannot affect mana, i.e. magic. While I understand your use of the word omnipotent is not meant to be literal, but more of a power scale. It may still be interpreted as such by someone else. Also, despite their ability to create a new universe, Alien X was unable to fix the universe that was being destroyed. Also the personalities have to agree to do something, which tends to take a very long time, if it happens ever. Ben is able to expedite these situations because he is considered the voice of reason within the trinity. That is why, for the most part, most of the Celestiosapiens just float around. While, I don't doubt they are extremely powerful, their purpose within the Ben 10 universe is strictly for plot. Alien X is not used unless some PIS is needed.

You failed to read the parameters. I said a Celestialsapien WITHOUT any sort of insanity.

@perezite: My discussion with LordofAllHumans has nothing to do with the current battle. I already stated my opinion of the battle earlier.

Claim at being omnipotent, at least to a level beyond that of celestials, becomes very questionable when you have a whole race of beings just like you or the fact that a character, who got beat up by Kevin, was going to steal your power.

Given the hyperbole surrounding Celestiosapien and given they did re-create the whole universe where Ben 10 version of ultimate nullifier nullified the reality, i would think putting them more powerful than any single celestial (bar Scanthan) would be reasonable.

I dont think putting them above an entire Celestial race would be as reasonable though...

Not to mention individual celestial themselves are called omnipotent, and while we know for a fact that marvel uses the term loosely, even went out to define the very term "omnipotent" in such a manner in handbook, there really isnt much suggest Ben 10 verse looks at it any differently though.

@killemall: Thing is they're not allowed to do anything unless every celestialsapien agrees, sort of like a hive-mind. That's probably the only reason nothing was done about them fighting on their palm. The one who he was going to steal was still a baby(not even born at that), their powers aren't fully developed and it still would have given him omnipotence according to Azmuth.

Firstly i do not recall anything being mentioned about all the Celestial Sapiens having a hive mind, while each of them most likely has a persona like Alien X i cant recall a single mention of hivemind, that being said i watched those episode a long time ago so memory is a bit hazy.

Aggragor (or however you spell his name) was going to steal power from a baby at their birth that much i agree, at birth, so technically "born" as opposed to nto even born but thats a different matter.

Omnipotent is a rather casually used terms, i do also recall Dwayne McDuffine stating AlienX isnt even the most powerful alien he has convinced off and that would be aliens from the 27 dimension that came to meet Ben 10 once (2 seperate replies) also leads me to believe the terms omnipotent used is as loosely as marvel themselves do. Celestial pwned 3 supposedly "omnipotent" people by marvel standard, the skyfathers.

@killemall: I recall reading somewhere from one of the guys behind the show who were answering questions about them, I'll post a link to it if I can find it again.

Fair enough, Dwyane himself had a question and answer for week with fans on his website, i would presume thats where he mentioned it.

Its the same page, about page no 17 (or there abouts) where one guy asks him if Alien X is Ben 10's most powerful alien and in turns he replies NO. Way later a different guy asks him who could conceivable be above Alien X in which he replied those aliens from 27 dimensions (do you know which aliens i am talking about, 27 itself might be incorrect , they are from a universe with well a whole lot more dimension, but there is an episode where a cube thing comes to earth which can copy anything, which copies Ben 10 omnitrix and later it was revealed that device , as powerful as it may be, was a mere toy for toddlers in that universe).

@killemall:

http://dwaynemcduffie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2104&p=88016&hilit=celestialsapien&sid=7f3452b1b3ef9ceca0ec65a23263a601&sid=2277a7890885af87fd2401b619060f2a#p88016

Re: The Ben 10: Ultimate Alien/Alien Force Q&A Thread

by Dwayne McDuffie on Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:34 pm

Turbojake252 wrote:

Dear Mr. McDuffie,

this is a contiuation of my previous post

1. Is the female

Celestialsapien

the only female? if so would that make her, in a sense, the "God" of the Ben10 universe?

2. Will we see anymore of Ben's aliens off the watch, like Manny, Helen, Tetrax, Tini etc. if they are plumber's kids will they appear in Enemy of my Enemy? 9or whatever the episodes going to be called)

3. Did the

Celestialsapien

even know of Ben, Ben, Gwen, Kevin, and Areegor's presence in her hands? if so why didn't she do anything? was she debating how to get rid of them?

tank you so much. if you don't have time to answer my questions i will hav been honored nyway that you read them. if you don't bother to read them then this whole sentence is obsolete and pointless...i'll have been honored to have posted then them on your forum.

again love the show, keep up the good work and thank you again so much for helply us clueless fans!(apology to all of ypu who are not clueless)

Majorly Uber Geek Alert!

1. no, and not even close.

3. Yes. She was debating what action to take.

Found the one answering that she was debating what to do with them. Now looking for the rest.... -so many pages T. T-

@killemall: Found him mentioning that even a baby celestialsapien was omnipotent

http://dwaynemcduffie.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2104&p=101802&hilit=Omnipotent&sid=432ca3103574c876307b1f79a9f460c2#p101802

Dwayne McDuffie

Posts: 4346

Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:36 pm

Celestialsaipen

Celestials for the win.

Celestialsapeans. Too stronk.

Unless the Celestials can produce multiversal-level attacks, the Celestalsapien won't be harmed in the least.

Celestials stomps

Celestialsapiens are omnipotent by statement and multiversal by feats... Celestialsapien.

And this puts them above Celestials..why exactly?

No omnipotents @jashro44

@revan2424: They're not actually omnipotent, as an entire race of them exists. As we know, more than 1 omni is literally impossible, even in fiction.

Celestialsapiens are as omnipotent as Odin, Darkseid, or anyone else whose power has been loosely described as omnipotent.

Omnipotent via statements only. lol

Because Celestials are not that powerful? Ashriem, by feats, is above guys like Odin and Vishnu and is considered one of the top Celestials. Most of the Celestials like OAA and The Dreaming Celestial are considered powerful because of statements anyway.

@lowlaville: And feats.

@marc_55: Hence why they have to debate for eternity to actually to something

And Celestialsapeans have rewritten entire timelines, tanked big bangs, manipulate probability on a universal scale and ridiculous things like that.

@revan2424: That just furthers the point, if they were actually omnipotent, which is impossible, they could do literally any and everything on a whim.

If they were so all powerfully omnipotent, Professor Paradox should not have been able to change Ben back from Alien X form. And certainly they wouldn't have had to have an agreement with him that he should stay x light years from them. Both parties could harm the other.

Paradox manipulated the omnitrix to turn Ben back, not Alien X. And it was never implied that Paradox could harm celestialsapiens.