Celestials vs Destroyer

@CapitolPunishment said:

@Hyper_God:

If by "minions" , you mean the Galactus Engine(not sure why you would refer to it in plural) , then sure , it caused the Celestials to retreat(which isn't really analogous to getting "slapped" but still) , then you have a point . Otherwise , no point at all .

Yes, obviously it was a metaphor. He was still forced to retreat by beings far less powerful than Shuma, as stated in the comic.

A BEING far less powerful than the Many-Angled Ones . As it was noted in that battle , the Galactus Engine was their greatest weapon .

And she was the only one who got "stomped" by the MAO's minions(if you are referring to those tentacle monsters) . Nova and Surfer were cruising through these same minions , in that very same battle .

They were not the same, not the way the writing depicted it anyhow. While Nova and Surfer were "cruising through these same minions" which were not the same ones Aegis was fighting. There battle was being fought on another plane of existance where the surfer could barely make sense of it and Nova couldn't even see what was going on until he was blasted in the face from her body exploding.

Aegis was primarily engaging the GE , along with the other Abstracts , as was duly noted in the comic . Nevertheless , it should be crystal clear that I don't mean "same" in a literal sense . Nevertheless , those wormlike creatures which blew out of her weren't much different than the ones being blasted to kingdom come by Surfer and Nova .

i stand corrected, never the less Chthon is more powerful than Set

Based on ?

Now your trying to make him out as a helpless baby? He didn't shudder for anything else that happened on Earth since he was trapped there and tons of sh1t hit the fan during that time period. Something actually scaring him speaks volumes.

I am not trying to make him out as a "helpless baby" , during his imprisonment , he WAS a "helpless baby" . The Ghaur and Sinister incident should be proof of that . He has always been far more formidable in his liberated state . The moment he awakened , he sent shivers down Galactus' spine , the same guy who stalemated Agamotto(high elder-god level being) in his own realm , and disrespected the Vishanti .

Strange beat just about everyone in Marvel using PIS, that case is no different. Classic Strange with prep was pretty much god, getting beat by him is no low showing. In the more recent encounters Strange had with Elder gods he was useless, even against there avatars. Your point?

I think you missed the part in which he used a cosmic cube's power to banish Set back to his realm . The same device which is orders of magnitude lesser in power than a single Celestial . And if you think that's PIS , then "Tiamut being scared of Set" should be considered PIS as well , because not once in comic book history was there ever a mention of him shuddering either during the IG saga , the HoTU saga , both of which were infinitely greater threats than Set .

@CapitolPunishment said:

A Galaxy busting blast that was simply deflected would have caused much more collateral damage than that blast did. Calling a sky-father a galaxy buster holds no weight, using vague 30 year old scans trying to prove that point is silly. I'm not saying that you are the one doing it but that the consensus of Odin being a Galaxy buster here on the vine is just wrong.

I never said anything about Odin galaxy-busting or whatever, I said that when Odin, Zeus and Vishnu unleashed their combined attack against Arishem, it did nothing despite the fact that it was capable of destroying a galaxy.

Those scans are mostly from the 70's. One example would be Odin destroying a Quasar back when science didn't even know what a Quasar was, let alone Stan Lee. At that point in our history humanity knew little of the stars, science thought a quasar was just some wild star producing weird amounts of radiation, later in the late 1980's, to the surprise of science, they found that a Quasar was not a star but a super massive black hole devouring a Galaxy located billions of light years away, big difference huh? How long do you think it took comics to catch up to science?

I never said anything about Odin soloing galaxies. Once again, I said that the combined attack of Odin, Zeus and Vishnu (which could destroy a galaxy) did nothing to Arishem.

I was using a metaphor, anyhow him and his host were defeated at the fault in space while trying to stop the cancerverse invasion. They all either died or fled (they did not show, i am assuming they fled) leaving Galactus alone to try and hold the line.

I know you were using a metaphor, I was asking about when Shuma-Gorath's minions have defeated Arishem. And I doubt that Arishem was overwhelmed like that, since a fusion of four Celestials one-shotted Galactus. How long did Galactus last after the Celestials left?

I never said anything about Odin galaxy-busting or whatever, I said that when Odin, Zeus and Vishnu unleashed their combined attack against Arishem, it did nothing despite the fact that it was capable of destroying a galaxy.
 
I never said anything about Odin soloing galaxies. Once again, I said that the combined attack of Odin, Zeus and Vishnu (which could destroy a galaxy) did nothing to Arishem.

I know you were using a metaphor, I was asking about when Shuma-Gorath's minions have defeated Arishem. And I doubt that Arishem was overwhelmed like that, since a fusion of four Celestials one-shotted Galactus. How long did Galactus last after the Celestials left?

A BEING far less powerful than the Many-Angled Ones . As it was noted in that battle , the Galactus Engine was their greatest weapon .

 Aegis was primarily engaging the GE , along with the other Abstracts , as was duly noted in the comic . Nevertheless , it should be crystal clear that I don't mean "same" in a literal sense . Nevertheless , those wormlike creatures which blew out of her weren't much different than the ones being blasted to kingdom come by Surfer and Nova .

Based on ?

I am not trying to make him out as a "helpless baby" , during his imprisonment , he WAS a "helpless baby" . The Ghaur and Sinister incident should be proof of that . He has always been far more formidable in his liberated state . The moment he awakened , he sent shivers down Galactus' spine , the same guy who stalemated Agamotto(high elder-god level being) in his own realm , and disrespected the Vishanti .

I think you missed the part in which he used a cosmic cube's power to banish Set back to his realm . The same device which is orders of magnitude lesser in power than a single Celestial . And if you think that's PIS

Tiamut being scared of Set" should be considered PIS as well , because not once in comic book history was there ever a mention of him shuddering either during the IG saga , the HoTU saga , both of which were infinitely greater threats than Set .

@CapitolPunishment: Alright.

Celestials ftw

Sure, that is a lot of power behind the Destroyer. I might concede it could give a Celestial a run for its money, but for THE Celestials? I just don't see it happening.

I think the Celestials have become more popular as of late and are being 'dumbed down' to make them easier to write into stores.

Kubik, the character who is the evolution of a Cosmic Cube, said that a single Celestial possesses "power many orders of magnitude beyond our own". And that is just one Celestial ... "many orders of magnitude" stronger then a cosmic cube.

Destroyer

I was really in favour of the Celestials for this one, but what I have just read about Shuma Gorath is giving me doubts. A tough one anyway.

Celestials.

@Hyper_God:

lol how? Shuma Gorath could solo them.

Celestials win no matter who is in the destroyer

@BigCimmerian said:

@Hyper_God:

lol how? Shuma Gorath could solo them.

The entire race of Celestials? Wait a second while I laugh at this for awhile...

@NerdsFTW:

@BigCimmerian said:

@NerdsFTW:

Notice how he says 'In his domain'?

Yeah, read that part.

@NerdsFTW:

@Baldy said:

@BigCimmerian said:

@NerdsFTW:

Notice how he says 'In his domain'?

Yeah, read that part.

Funny how Cyttorak easily made a fool of Galactus out side of "his domain".

And it's also funny how a fraction of Cyttorak's power was used to display the "Command of the Entire Universe".

@OmegaDynasty: @TheSecondOpinion: @Baldy: @BigCimmerian: Please reply and not quote, I don't want to be wrapped up in this conversation.

@CapitolPunishment said:

@Hyper_God:

A BEING far less powerful than the Many-Angled Ones . As it was noted in that battle , the Galactus Engine was their greatest weapon .

That is incorrect good sir. It was there greatest weapon fielded at that point, they also said that larger, more powerful beings were following it through the fault, which was more than likely Shuma and company. Luckily for the 616 Universe, the fault was sealed up.

And Shuman and Co. WERE the Many-Angled Ones . I don't understand how that disproves my point . The GE was their greatest weapon , and barring MAOs themselves , all the other tentacled worm monsters that were seen in that battle were fodder compared to the GE .

So you agree then. The worm like things may have flew out of her body but they were not what killed her so Surfer and Nova killing some of those things really doesn't mean anything at all.

They appeared to be no more and no less effective as compared to the other tentacled monsters .

There are a few instances but I'll have to dig them up for you. One example would be Set trying to gain control of Wanda with the Serpent crown and Chthon forcefully blocking it, basically telling his little brother "hands off my sh1t".

I have most of their appearances , and none of them seem to suggest that Chthon is > Set in any quantifiable way . Chthon fled from the God-Eater without even putting up a fight , unlike Set . I doubt you are going to convince me otherwise regarding this point .

Fact remains he was scared of the simple essence of Set, nothing else scared him in that way, ever. Agamotto is nowhere near Chthon or Set, he is an elder god-ling that was empowered by Oshter's teardrop. Oshtur has admitted on more than one occasion that her brothers are far more powerful then she is. Chthon's avatar alone was enough to scare Eternity to the point he came crawling for help, Eternity, Galactus' daddy.

Yup , and in Mighty Avengers # 34 , Loki revealed that he had been posing as Eternity to trick Pym .

Classic Strange is the embodiment of PIS, if you don't already know that then you should read more on him. Also cosmic cubes vary in power from story to story. Dr. Doom used one to Usurp Galactus' power in one arc, in another Galactus took a full on hit to the grill from 6 of them used by Adam Warlock and survived it with ease. PIS on PIS, marvel at its finest.

I don't see how that particular instance was PIS . Dr Doom did in that in conjunction with other artifacts . Galactus varies in power as well , and in that particular stroy arc , he was hungry . And the other instance , it was Magus who hit Galactus with FIVE cosmic cubes , and his intention was not to kill Galactus but to stall him , and he was afraid that he may have overdone it and thought that he overestimated Galactus' durability . He still blew up Galactus and his ship from several dimensions away .

He wasn't shown in either saga, the cermony they were conducting to bring Set in was taking place in a mountain near where he was sleeping, hence he was shown. The HOTU arc isn't cannon either.

I'll try to scan some comics tomorrow regarding Set and Chthon, I'll also dig up some more stuff on the subject.

Anyhow, I never said how I think this would turn out. If its the whole freaking Celestial race I give it to them, if its just a host then the Elder gods/demons would win.

Still doesn't change the fact that he was weakened during his imprisonment(as was evidenced when he only attempted to take over the HR universe when it was passed onto Ashema , and not when Franklin was supreme in it) .

As I said before , he has always been a "helpless baby" in his imprisoned state , and the necessary proof has already been provided to substantiate this claim . Also as far as this is concerned :

I was using a metaphor, anyhow him and his host were defeated at the fault in space while trying to stop the cancerverse invasion. They all either died or fled (they did not show, i am assuming they fled) leaving Galactus alone to try and hold the line.

The only Abstract that died in that conflict was Aegis . All the others were mentioned as having "retreated" :

The Celestials recent appearance in the Uncanny X-Men arc should be proof of that .

@BigCimmerian said:

@Hyper_God:

lol how? Shuma Gorath could solo them.

Greater overall power and numbers advantage . No he couldn't .

@Hyper_God said:

@BigCimmerian said:

@Hyper_God:

lol how? Shuma Gorath could solo them.

Greater overall power and numbers advantage . No he couldn't .

Yes he could. You think that Celestials are more powerful than Eternity? Shuma Gorath already destroyed countless Eternities in the multiverse.

@BigCimmerian said:

@Hyper_God said:

@BigCimmerian said:

@Hyper_God:

lol how? Shuma Gorath could solo them.

Greater overall power and numbers advantage . No he couldn't .

Yes he could. You think that Celestials are more powerful than Eternity? Shuma Gorath already destroyed countless Eternities in the multiverse.

Provide a reference to an issue number in which such a statement was .

In his most recent appearance in Journey Into Mystery v1 # 627 , Gorath was part of the assemblage(which included Dormammu , Asteroth , Set , Chthon among others) of demons and hell-lords that were too scared(except Cyttorak and even he decided to settle for an avatarVSavatar war in the form of Kuurth vs Colossus) to take on the Serpent head-on . The same Serpent whom Odin crushed in a previous encounter .

Shum-Gorath , going by his most recent appearance(which is in line with the Battle Forum Rules) is barely a skyfather-level character .

He's not soloing the Celestials . Not at all .

Edit : The entire race of Celestials also includes Scathan . Scathan is DEFINITELY more powerful than Eternity . By leaps and bounds .

Also , Death singlehandedly crippled the Many-Angled Ones so badly that they would have required aeons to heal . Such incidences don't help your case .

@BigCimmerian said:

@NerdsFTW:

Sinister(being sustained by a depleting supply of the Dreaming Celestial's energies) defeated and captured the entire P5 . More impressive than BFRing two of these guys .