#201 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyper_god:

well, that was in narration, and seems a bit out of character for the celestials

#202 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1: Narration ? It's a memory-based flashback(the Dreaming Celestial's memory to be precise) , and it literally showcases what happened at the dawn of creation .

You know what's in-character for a bunch of enigmatic space gods whose nature , purpose and function is speculated upon by characters from comics themselves ?

#203 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyper_god: oh, sorry

so the Celestials are multiversal now?

#204 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

^Based on the most recent on-panel evidence , yes they are .

#205 Edited by laflux (14133 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyper_god: hmmm what brings you back round these parts, old friend?

#206 Edited by Living_Monstrosity (428 posts) - - Show Bio

The new statements about what some Celestials did doesn't erase the fact that in Thanos Imperative the top MAO's were superior to a group of abstracts and Celestials. All it does it does is increase the feat of power of the MAO's masters since they were able to deal with what are supposedly now considered 'multiversal powers'.

#207 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

^It doesn't change this fact either that in a later comic Shuma Gorath was part of a group of Demon Lords , none of whom were willing to take the Serpent in a head-on fight , and whose de facto spokesperson(Mephisto) literally admitted that challenging Cul directly would be suicidal for any demonic entity present .

@laflux said:

@hyper_god: hmmm what brings you back round these parts, old friend?

My exams got over recently , so I have some free time now and then to post on here . Needless to say , I don't like the new layout of this board , which has kept me off for quite some time as well .

#208 Posted by New_World_Order (12507 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool

#209 Posted by Living_Monstrosity (428 posts) - - Show Bio

^^ Great. So we've established that Cul > Demon Lords > Celestials since JITM never retconned Shuma's participation in Thanos Imperative where Celestials got owned.

#210 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

Participation ? His name got mentioned once or twice on-panel , and immediately the fanboys assumed that he was the leader of the MAOs and it automatically implied that he was greater than 616-Abstracts .

Yup , the same Cul who was defeate by Odin before he merged with Vili and Vil to form the Odinforce . The same Odin who was later shown to be weaker than a Galactus fed on a dead world . An amped version of whom lost to 4 Celestials stated to be the equals of the 616-Celestials .

Basically speaking , 616-Celestials(collective) = Mad Celestials(collective) >/= Amped Galactus >>>> Odin >>> Cul > Demon Lords . Glad to see we've established something of meaning here .

#211 Edited by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

@living_monstrosity said:

The new statements about what some Celestials did doesn't erase the fact that in Thanos Imperative the top MAO's were superior to a group of abstracts and Celestials. All it does it does is increase the feat of power of the MAO's masters since they were able to deal with what are supposedly now considered 'multiversal powers'.

There is a lot going on in there, mostly off panel to really say anything conclusively.

Firstly MOA doesnt even come on panel up until the very last issue before Thanos is being sacrificed.

Secondly we know what they did was increased the power of Galactus engine, how they did it we dont know, so its open to having used plot device.

There was no statement of MOA being superior to Abstracts, in fact while the word abstract was used the only person that were on the scene were Galactus and Celestial, when 1 abstract unleased her power, Lady Death, they all had to retreat.

So meh i think Thanos imperative, a whole bunch of off panel feat is all people can site.

@hyper_god said:

^It doesn't change this fact either that in a later comic Shuma Gorath was part of a group of Demon Lords , none of whom were willing to take the Serpent in a head-on fight , and whose de facto spokesperson(Mephisto) literally admitted that challenging Cul directly would be suicidal for any demonic entity present .

The statement was made in regards to Mephisto himself challenging Serpent not the whole demon entities.

Also no mention of whether Shuma even wanted to fight back against the Serpent there, he was just a part of the meeting alongside everyone else, and one of the person on the meeting was Odin who has beaten Serpent in the past.

Shuma Gorath being the leader of the Old Ones, and like the most powerful among them comes from his 2005 bio entry in Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe vol 4: Book of Horrors

#212 Edited by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

As of X-treme X-Men #13 , even a single Celestial would barely need a gesture to wipe out both Cyttorak and Shuma .

I think you got the issue number wrong, its Astonishing X-Men vol 3, 61 where that happened.

#213 Posted by Living_Monstrosity (428 posts) - - Show Bio

Participation ? His name got mentioned once or twice on-panel , and immediately the fanboys assumed that he was the leader of the MAOs and it automatically implied that he was greater than 616-Abstracts .

Yup , the same Cul who was defeate by Odin before he merged with Vili and Vil to form the Odinforce . The same Odin who was later shown to be weaker than a Galactus fed on a dead world . An amped version of whom lost to 4 Celestials stated to be the equals of the 616-Celestials .

Basically speaking , 616-Celestials(collective) = Mad Celestials(collective) >/= Amped Galactus >>>> Odin >>> Cul > Demon Lords . Glad to see we've established something of meaning here .

His name got mentioned because he was summoned with three others where they immediately show up after Mar-Vell calls out their names. It was already measured through Kree tech that there were more powerful MAO's than the Galactus Engine. And nobody said he was greater than the 616 abstracts. All I've seen said is that as of Thanos Imperative Shuma is superior to Galactus but lower than the prime abstracts like Mistress Death - who are all greater in power than the Celestials. Basically speaking, Celestials including Arishem got owned by the MAO's, so whatever 'feat' they show later that doesn't retcon them getting owned really just enhances the power of those that owned them.

#214 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@living_monstrosity said:

His name got mentioned because he was summoned with three others where they immediately show up after Mar-Vell calls out their names. It was already measured through Kree tech that there were more powerful MAO's than the Galactus Engine. And nobody said he was greater than the 616 abstracts. All I've seen said is that as of Thanos Imperative Shuma is superior to Galactus but lower than the prime abstracts like Mistress Death - who are all greater in power than the Celestials. Basically speaking, Celestials including Arishem got owned by the MAO's, so whatever 'feat' they show later that doesn't retcon them getting owned really just enhances the power of those that owned them.

You're reaching very desperately here to try and make a featless character like Shuma something that he's very likely not . As of Journey Into Mystery , Serpent is also greater than the Satanic entities . That's more recent than Thanos Imperative . So is Hickman's forever arc . However , since you want to reach and theory-craft here , let's play your game . The MAOs never owned the Celestials . The Celestials' seeming retreat was noted by Medusa , who isn't the best authority to judge for what actually happened in that battle , largely because of what the Silver Surfer(with his cosmic awareness) himself stated the battle was taking place on deep metaphysical levels .

In their very next appearance , the Celestials returned to Earth because they detected Sinister's tampering with the Dreaming Celestial . What evidence is there to show that , within in-comic chronology , the Celestials hadn't left the battlefield to deal with Sinister's shenanigans because of what he did to the Dreaming Celestial ? See what happens when we reach too desperately ?

@killemall said:

The statement was made in regards to Mephisto himself challenging Serpent not the whole demon entities.

Also no mention of whether Shuma even wanted to fight back against the Serpent there, he was just a part of the meeting alongside everyone else, and one of the person on the meeting was Odin who has beaten Serpent in the past.

Shuma Gorath being the leader of the Old Ones, and like the most powerful among them comes from his 2005 bio entry in Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe vol 4: Book of Horrors

It was a generic statement from what I recall . I'll recheck to be sure though . Still , we have Cyttorak making empty threats towards the Serpent , and settling for an avatarVSavatar war , which Colossus won only because of the unstoppable enchantment . Mephisto even backhandedly mocked Cyttorak by claiming in terms of making big threats "Cyttorak was unstoppable" .

In an even later JIM issue , Mephisto collected a portion of the Serpent's fear based power and believed that this power would have enabled him to take the Throne of Satan and become superior to the other Hell-Lords . I am pretty sure that Gillen's intent in that series was to imply that the Serpent was mightier than any Demon Lord , with the exception of Surtur at best .

That handbook bio is completely irrelevant here . There has never been an on-panel reference of Shuma being the leader of the Old Ones . Might as well start using Tom Brevoort's Formspring replies as evidence that Cyttorak > Shuma .

@killemall said:

I think you got the issue number wrong, its Astonishing X-Men vol 3, 61 where that happened.

I got those scans from a friend of mine on another board . I'll check again to be sure .

#215 Posted by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio


It was a generic statement from what I recall . I'll recheck to be sure though . Still , we have Cyttorak making empty threats towards the Serpent , and settling for an avatarVSavatar war , which Colossus won only because of the unstoppable enchantment . Mephisto even backhandedly mocked Cyttorak by claiming in terms of making big threats "Cyttorak was unstoppable" .

In an even later JIM issue , Mephisto collected portion of the Serpent's fear based power and believed that this power would have enabled him to take the Throne of Satan and become superior to the other Hell-Lords . I am pretty cure that Gillen's intent in that series was to imply that the Serpent was mightier than any Demon Lord , with the exception of Surtur at best .

That handbook bio is completely irrelevant here . There has never been an on-panel reference of Shuma being the leader of the Old Ones . Might as well start using Tom Brevoort's Formspring replies as evidence that Cyttorak > Shuma .

Fair enough.

Although the later JIM it wasn't Mephisto but Nightmare, and Loki actually later does give him the whole of his fear that he uses to make a crown and still gets defeated by few fear lords (JIM 636) and it was shown that the crown made Nightmare more powerful than any single one of the fear lord, and the fight takes place in his own dimension. Moment you said Gillen pretty sure thats the one you are referring to.

I understand we cant put as much weight on Handbook, i was just putting a scan which people normally use to say Shuma was the leader and hence likely the most powerful one of the Old Ones.

But at the end of the day, its all bunch of statement and nothing else. Shuma best feat, while fighting Dr. Strange in Chaos Dimension was that the resulting energy would collapse the nether-realm.

Its mostly implied power.

#216 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

he was just a part of the meeting alongside everyone else, and one of the person on the meeting was Odin who has beaten Serpent in the past.

Just noticed this . WTF ? Odin was not present at the Satanic advocacy meeting . Sure , the Council of Godheads and and the Demon Lords were present in the Infinity Embassy , but their respective meeting chambers were entirely different and separate .

#217 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

Although the later JIM it wasn't Mephisto but Nightmare, and Loki actually later does give him the whole of his fear that he uses to make a crown and still gets defeated by few fear lords (JIM 636) and it was shown that the crown made Nightmare more powerful than any single one of the fear lord, and the fight takes place in his own dimension. Moment you said Gillen pretty sure thats the one you are referring to.

I understand we cant put as much weight on Handbook, i was just putting a scan which people normally use to say Shuma was the leader and hence likely the most powerful one of the Old Ones.

But at the end of the day, its all bunch of statement and nothing else. Shuma best feat, while fighting Dr. Strange in Chaos Dimension was that the resulting energy would collapse the nether-realm.

Its mostly implied power.

I am talking about when Mephisto gained the Fear Crown , because he did . You're confusing one instance with the other .

So you agree that Shuma is the god of hyperbole , and based on hyperbole alone he can't win this thread ?

The Celestials , on the other hand , have been stacking up feats to back up their power . No-selling skyfathers , defeating the Council of Reeds , half-killing an amped Galactus , holding their own against a universal reality warper , resisting alternate UNs on 2 different occasions , and finally being accredited and even shown in a flashback as being the creators of the multiverse is far more impressive than getting humiliated by Strange .

Celestials ftw in a spitetastic fashion .

#218 Posted by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio


Just noticed this . WTF ? Odin was not present at the Satanic advocacy meeting . Sure , the Council of Godheads and and the Demon Lords were present in the Infinity Embassy , but their respective meeting chambers were entirely different and separate .

They were both meeting on the same place, on the same topic, arguing about the same thing, why should we look at the 2 meetings separately based on what chambers it takes place.

I am talking about when Mephisto gained the Fear Crown , because he did . You're confusing one instance with the other .

So you agree that Shuma is the god of hyperbole , and based on hyperbole alone he can't win this thread ?

The Celestials , on the other hand , have been stacking up feats to back up their power . No-selling skyfathers , defeating the Council of Reeds , half-killing an amped Galactus , holding their own against a universal reality warper , resisting alternate UNs on 2 different occasions , and finally being accredited and even shown in a flashback as being the creators of the multiverse is far more impressive than getting humiliated by Strange .

Celestials ftw in a spitetastic fashion .

1. So there is an earlier story arc with Mephisto in it, very well, would you happen to know the issue number, i'd be interested to check it out.

2. I wasnt making a case for Shuma Gorath, i personally feel his feats are a little over blown its all implied power and i agree. Hard and fast feats, Celestial have him outgunned.

#219 Posted by Setherial (209 posts) - - Show Bio

It's actually said on panel in Strange Tales II #16 that Shuma-Gorath is the leader of the Old Ones. It's not just handbook info.

"-- And that in turn left the world vulnerable to the return of the eldritch Old Ones, led by Shuma-Gorath..."

#220 Posted by Living_Monstrosity (428 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyper_god said:

@living_monstrosity said:

His name got mentioned because he was summoned with three others where they immediately show up after Mar-Vell calls out their names. It was already measured through Kree tech that there were more powerful MAO's than the Galactus Engine. And nobody said he was greater than the 616 abstracts. All I've seen said is that as of Thanos Imperative Shuma is superior to Galactus but lower than the prime abstracts like Mistress Death - who are all greater in power than the Celestials. Basically speaking, Celestials including Arishem got owned by the MAO's, so whatever 'feat' they show later that doesn't retcon them getting owned really just enhances the power of those that owned them.

You're reaching very desperately here to try and make a featless character like Shuma something that he's very likely not . As of Journey Into Mystery , Serpent is also greater than the Satanic entities . That's more recent than Thanos Imperative . So is Hickman's forever arc . However , since you want to reach and theory-craft here , let's play your game . The MAOs never owned the Celestials . The Celestials' seeming retreat was noted by Medusa , who isn't the best authority to judge for what actually happened in that battle , largely because of what the Silver Surfer(with his cosmic awareness) himself stated the battle was taking place on deep metaphysical levels .

In their very next appearance , the Celestials returned to Earth because they detected Sinister's tampering with the Dreaming Celestial . What evidence is there to show that , within in-comic chronology , the Celestials hadn't left the battlefield to deal with Sinister's shenanigans because of what he did to the Dreaming Celestial ? See what happens when we reach too desperately ?

Oh yea, I'm totally reaching when I use an on panel statement that there were more powerful entities than the Galactus Engine following through the fault, a statement backed by a reading from tech. The MAOs did own the Celestials, and it's funny that you say I'm reaching when you just dismiss Medusa's statement and try to come up with a reason for why it couldn't be right.

There's no evidence showing that the Celestials left the battlefield in the Cancerverse to deal with Sinister. That's like saying there's no evidence that there weren't any aliens present during the first Thanksgiving so there were obviously aliens there. It's pretty clear you have a bias against all things non-cosmic - and I think I know where you get it from :/

#221 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@living_monstrosity said:

Oh yea, I'm totally reaching when I use an on panel statement that there were more powerful entities than the Galactus Engine following through the fault, a statement backed by a reading from tech. The MAOs did own the Celestials, and it's funny that you say I'm reaching when you just dismiss Medusa's statement and try to come up with a reason for why it couldn't be right.

There's no evidence showing that the Celestials left the battlefield in the Cancerverse to deal with Sinister. That's like saying there's no evidence that there weren't any aliens present during the first Thanksgiving so there were obviously aliens there. It's pretty clear you have a bias against all things non-cosmic - and I think I know where you get it from :/

Concession accepted .

#222 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

They were both meeting on the same place, on the same topic, arguing about the same thing, why should we look at the 2 meetings separately based on what chambers it takes place.

Dafuq is this sh1t ? Because they were exactly that : 2 separate meetings . Odin did was not present at the assemblage that Shuma-Gorath attended . Likewise , Shuma was not present at the Godheads' convention . This isn't hard to grasp .

You claimed that Odin was also present in the very same meeting that Shuma attended , when that borders from sheer ignorance to outright lying . Do you not realize how stupid your present attempt to defend this position sounds ? I like ya Kill , but let's not go full retard here .

#223 Edited by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyper_god said:

Dafuq is this sh1t ? Because they were exactly that : 2 separate meetings . Odin did was not present at the assemblage that Shuma-Gorath attended . Likewise , Shuma was not present at the Godheads' convention . This isn't hard to grasp .

You claimed that Odin was also present in the very same meeting that Shuma attended , when that borders from sheer ignorance to outright lying . Do you not realize how stupid your present attempt to defend this position sounds ? I like ya Kill , but let's not go full retard here .

Pretty sure you missed the point i have been trying to make or perhaps it was me who did not explain it well.

So lets begin with the your first post to what i replied in regards to Odin and Shuma Gorath potion

1. Your post summary: A platheora of demons were present in the assemblage , all of whom were there to meet because of Serpent rising on earth. None of these demons actually attacked Serpent on earth, and hence it shows these demons were weaker than Serpent.

2. My reply to this was: Among other things, Odin himself was present in the same meeting.

3. Your reply: Odin was present in the meeting of Godhead while Demons were meeting in their own assemblage, one takes places in the lower chamber of the infinite assembly, the other on the upper chamber

4. My reply: They were both meeting on the same place (infinite assembly), on the same topic (serpent) why should we look at the 2 meetings separately based on what chambers it takes place.

And i still dont see why my position is not justified.

Journey into the Mystery 627

So what i am saying is:

1. Demons and Gods, although in 2 seperate chambers , are discussing the same thing Serpent.

2. You are saying since demons did not themselves attack earth and Serpent, but rather sit there arguing this shows the demons were inferior to Serpent.

3. I am saying so were the gods, Odin was among one of them, who was arguing in the above chamber about the same Serpent, he himself did not go on earth to fight, neither did any of the skyfather there debating. And we know Odin isnt inferior to Serpent.

4. In regards to these 2 showing, as they are in the same comics, about the same topic, despite being separated in 2 chambers, should make no difference, because you use a proxy to measure the power level of demons based on their action of failure to thereof, the same should be true for Skyfather too shouldnt it.

See so i see no reason to differentiate them into 2 different group and hence my original postion which was is justified. Lastly out of respect on how we have debated on past i am not flagging you here, refrain from outright belittling someone will you, specially when their position are well justified. .

The statement was made in regards to Mephisto himself challenging Serpent not the whole demon entities.

Also no mention of whether Shuma even wanted to fight back against the Serpent there, he was just a part of the meeting alongside everyone else, and one of the person on the meeting was Odin who has beaten Serpent in the past.

#224 Edited by Ohgawd (128 posts) - - Show Bio

The arrogance of this Hyper_God kid is pretty hilarious. Trying too hard to be comicvine's Mr. Master XD

#225 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@ohgawd: who's Mr Master?

also, the spacerobotgods win

#226 Posted by Ohgawd (128 posts) - - Show Bio

@ohgawd: who's Mr Master?

also, the spacerobotgods win

One of the most well known members of KMC forums. He's regarded as the expert on that site about cosmic powers and posts boat loads of scans per post with his arguments. Some people on this site will take Mr. Master's posts and then paste them onto here and act like it's their own argument. The thing is Mr. Master knows about this and he actually finds it amusing and enjoys it, but it's a bit of a drag for others who want to debate on here because there's just no fun in debating someone who doesn't have an original idea. If you look through Hyper_Gods forum history a big percentage of what he says is directly ripped from Mr. Master. As a long time member of KMC it's pretty obvious. Wouldn't be so bad if Hyper God didn't act like a condescending egomaniac to other users.

#227 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

@hyper_god said:

Dafuq is this sh1t ? Because they were exactly that : 2 separate meetings . Odin did was not present at the assemblage that Shuma-Gorath attended . Likewise , Shuma was not present at the Godheads' convention . This isn't hard to grasp .

You claimed that Odin was also present in the very same meeting that Shuma attended , when that borders from sheer ignorance to outright lying . Do you not realize how stupid your present attempt to defend this position sounds ? I like ya Kill , but let's not go full retard here .

Pretty sure you missed the point i have been trying to make or perhaps it was me who did not explain it well.

So lets begin with the your first post to what i replied in regards to Odin and Shuma Gorath potion

1. Your post summary: A platheora of demons were present in the assemblage , all of whom were there to meet because of Serpent rising on earth. None of these demons actually attacked Serpent on earth, and hence it shows these demons were weaker than Serpent.

2. My reply to this was: Among other things, Odin himself was present in the same meeting.

3. Your reply: Odin was present in the meeting of Godhead while Demons were meeting in their own assemblage, one takes places in the lower chamber of the infinite assembly, the other on the upper chamber

4. My reply: They were both meeting on the same place (infinite assembly), on the same topic (serpent) why should we look at the 2 meetings separately based on what chambers it takes place.

And i still dont see why my position is not justified.

Journey into the Mystery 627

So what i am saying is:

1. Demons and Gods, although in 2 seperate chambers , are discussing the same thing Serpent.

2. You are saying since demons did not themselves attack earth and Serpent, but rather sit there arguing this shows the demons were inferior to Serpent.

3. I am saying so were the gods, Odin was among one of them, who was arguing in the above chamber about the same Serpent, he himself did not go on earth to fight, neither did any of the skyfather there debating. And we know Odin isnt inferior to Serpent.

4. In regards to these 2 showing, as they are in the same comics, about the same topic, despite being separated in 2 chambers, should make no difference, because you use a proxy to measure the power level of demons based on their action of failure to thereof, the same should be true for Skyfather too shouldnt it.

What exactly are you trying to pull off with this crap ? Your position is not justified at all . Odin was not present at the meeting that Shuma Gorath attended .

Those were 2 completely different meetings , held at different places within the Infinite Embassy .

Going by your logic we can pretty much state that the Skrulls and Shiar live on the same world since they occupy the same universe . Do you not realize how utterly horrendous this claim that "Odin was at the same meeting as Shuma" sounds ?

See so i see no reason to differentiate them into 2 different group and hence my original postion which was is justified. Lastly out of respect on how we have debated on past i am not flagging you here, refrain from outright belittling someone will you, specially when their position are well justified. .

Oh please . You're on thin ice as it is regarding the trollish logic that you're using to argue that Odin and Shuma Gorath were present at the same meeting , and you're lucky that I haven't gone ahead and reported you for outright lying and misrepresenting scans .

#228 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@ohgawd said:

The arrogance of this Hyper_God kid is pretty hilarious. Trying too hard to be comicvine's Mr. Master XD

I <3 you too .

#229 Edited by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

@ohgawd: who's Mr Master?

also, the spacerobotgods win

The cosmic expert on KMC

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/search.php?action=showresults&q=userid%3A88754

This has all his post in the battle thread, i normally check it out every week or so.

If there is one person who knows the cosmic hierarchy best in marvel, its likely him.

Say what you will, if you want a source to learn about cosmic hierarchy in marvel, he's the go to guy. I think he is away from few week, i think one of the other fellow user mentioned he had exams or something so he is away.

@ohgawd: Well its hard not to take his scans when they are so awesome :p i have in fact credited Master plenty of times when i post scans those are lovely. BTW i think i have seen you post on KMC, you go by "MarvelMystic" or something similar right?

#230 Posted by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

What exactly are you trying to pull off with this crap ? Your position is not justified at all . Odin was not present at the meeting that Shuma Gorath attended .

Those were 2 completely different meetings , held at different places within the Infinite Embassy .

Going by your logic we can pretty much state that the Skrulls and Shiar live on the same world since they occupy the same universe . Do you not realize how utterly horrendous this claim that "Odin was at the same meeting as Shuma" sounds ?

1. No i do not realise how horrendous that sound in fact as far as i am concerned and i am pretty sure anyone else reading my argument would say it sounds correct because there was a cosmic meeting about Serpent, in JIM tie in of Fear Itself arc and Odin was IN FACT present in the meeting. Sure they have 2 different chambers but they are discussing the same thing at the same time. So no its not 2 different meet

2. I did not contradict anything, i did not say they were not in different chambers, i however said despite them being different chamber i see no reason to make it 2 different meeting as it takes place in same issue, at the same place , about the same topic. So anything you rule from one meeting has to go to another.

3. Stop being condescending for a second and actually read through what i said:

1. Your post summary: A platheora of demons were present in the assemblage , all of whom were there to meet because of Serpent rising on earth. None of these demons actually attacked Serpent on earth, and hence it shows these demons were weaker than Serpent.

2. My reply to this was: Among other things, Odin himself was present in the same meeting.

3. Your reply: Odin was present in the meeting of Godhead while Demons were meeting in their own assemblage, one takes places in the lower chamber of the infinite assembly, the other on the upper chamber

4. My reply: They were both meeting on the same place (infinite assembly), on the same topic (serpent) why should we look at the 2 meetings separately based on what chambers it takes place.

You were the one who replied to me saying this:

@killemall said:

he was just a part of the meeting alongside everyone else, and one of the person on the meeting was Odin who has beaten Serpent in the past.

Just noticed this . WTF ? Odin was not present at the Satanic advocacy meeting . Sure , the Council of Godheads and and the Demon Lords were present in the Infinity Embassy , but their respective meeting chambers were entirely different and separate .

and in reply i said

@hyper_god said:

Just noticed this . WTF ? Odin was not present at the Satanic advocacy meeting . Sure , the Council of Godheads and and the Demon Lords were present in the Infinity Embassy , but their respective meeting chambers were entirely different and separate .

They were both meeting on the same place, on the same topic, arguing about the same thing, why should we look at the 2 meetings separately based on what chambers it takes place.

So stop being so rude for a second and READ.

I said they were on the same meeting, you said they were on 2 different chamber.

Did i , at any point contradict that, did i say it was incorrect?

No.

What i however said was:

They were both meeting on the same place, on the same topic, arguing about the same thing, why should we look at the 2 meetings separately based on what chambers it takes place.

Oh please . You're on thin ice as it is regarding the trollish logic that you're using to argue that Odin and Shuma Gorath were present at the same meeting , and you're lucky that I haven't gone ahead and reported you for outright lying and misrepresenting scans .

Stop being a cry baby for once and actually read what i have said.

I love how my logic is trollish but the fact that Demons did not fight Serpent in a meeting they are talking about Serpent shows they are inferior to Serpent, but that does not apply to skyfather who where at the same time talking about the same issue in the same comics just one place before the meeting of demons.

Nice try mate.

#231 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: Because of the different manner in which those meetings were portrayed ? Gillen's intent was pretty clear : Odin and the rest of the skyfathers were peers , while Cul was on the other hand was superior to any single Hell-Lord barring Surtur perhaps .

Nobody is saying that you contradicted anything . The only objection I have is you literally claiming that Odin was present at the same meeting that Shuma Gorath attended , and then using a flawed line of reasoning(that those meetings took place in the Infinite Embassy , therefore they're the same) to defend this position .

In fact from what I recall , the Demons were explicitly barred from attending the Godheads' meeting , and no skyfather was shown to be present or even alluded to be present in the Devil's Advocacy .

I read your response , and I disagree with it , because it sounds utterly stupid and lulzworthy to me . This is CadenceV2-lite and it's unlike anything you would post which is something that further surprises me .

Crybaby ? LOL , you're the one who threatened to flag my post for supposedly berating you on using such flawed reasoning to defend a position which is not even worthy of consideration to begin with , and somehow I am the crybaby ? Double lolz at that .

Sit back , relax , take a moment or 2 to reflect upon what you've just posted and you'll realize the truth of my words and how your logic is indeed sounding trollish at this point , irrespective of the intent behind those words .

#232 Edited by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyper_god said:

@killemall: Because of the different manner in which those meetings were portrayed ? Gillen's intent was pretty clear : Odin and the rest of the skyfathers were peers , while Cul was on the other hand was superior to any single Hell-Lord barring Surtur perhaps .

You keep saying that i dont understand how its any different though.

Its the same meeting, about same topic , just in a different chamber, they are both arguing about the same topic, and neither of them fight.

What exactly is the difference between the two?

Seriously, here is the whole issue , just point which panel shows Gillen intends to make it two different conclusion out of the meeting

In fact lets ask Gillen himself right now lets see what he replies, i am not really sure if his tumbler accounts(http://kierongillen.tumblr.com/ask) and see what he says but as far as the issue goes i really dont see a difference between the 2 assemblage which is what i asked you and you replied in a horrible manner for reason perhaps only known to you.

Nobody is saying that you contradicted anything . The only objection I have is you literally claiming that Odin was present at the same meeting that Shuma Gorath attended , and then using a flawed line of reasoning(that those meetings took place in the Infinite Embassy , therefore they're the same) to defend this position .

I did not disagree with you even once that the meeting took place in 2 different chambers. But its on the same topic, in the same comics, side by side in terms of page, why exactly should them being on 2 different chambers matter. That was my question when you said it was 2 different meeting, and i still havent seen a valid answer here, you just went on an angry rampage for whatever reason.

In fact from what I recall , the Demons were explicitly barred from attending the Godheads' meeting , and no skyfather was shown to be present or even alluded to be present in the Devil's Advocacy .

I dont recall that either, and even if that was so, its totally inconsequential to what i am saying. (EDIT: Scratch that, did re-read the instance, Mephisto was barred from going into the skyfather meeting because he was a demon, but that still doesnt change anything i have said thus far)

I said Odin was there, you said he was in a different chamber, my question was simple: why does it matter when both the chambers were discussing the same thing and both of there actions were exactly the same.

I read your response , and I disagree with it , because it sounds utterly stupid and lulzworthy to me . This is CadenceV2-lite and it's unlike anything you would post which is something that further surprises me .

Disagree all you want, i have no problem with that, but calling someone post stupid and lulzworthy, when there is absolutely nothing to say that is just wrong.

Secondly point me exactly what i said was lulz worthy when i see absolutely none apart from you acting overtly arrogant for no good reason.

I never once disagreed they were in 2 different place, i disagreed that meeting were entirely different and should be seen upon different, and i still do, and i have seen absolutely nothing in the issue to point that out. Nothing..

There is no CadenceV2 lite reply here, and mind you thats one of my friend, and i respect him as a debator so lets not go name calling shall we.

If anything your reply is like 7am-ish, ignoring everything the other guy says, making your assumption and pretend it as if it were a fact.

Crybaby ? LOL , you're the one who threatened to flag my post for supposedly berating you on using such flawed reasoning to defend a position which is not even worthy of consideration to begin with , and somehow I am the crybaby ? Double lolz at that .

LOL all you want, i did not flag you out of respect because you know if you start calling people idiot and stuff you do get flagged. Thats what flag are meant for.

And i love how you are saying my reasoning is flawed, exactly what you said on the other thread, when what i am saying is backed clearly in the issue, and yours arent.

Show me a panel that clearly distinguish the two, show me one material difference between the two meeting then talk.

Sit back , relax , take a moment or 2 to reflect upon what you've just posted and you'll realize the truth of my words and how your logic is indeed sounding trollish at this point , irrespective of the intent behind those words .

BTW this time, FLAGGED.

You can cry me a river if you wish but there is nothing trollish at what i said, apart from you blatantly closing your eyes on what i am saying and pretending i am not making sense.

Its makes perfect sense, 2 group of people debating same topic, in the same time, in the same freakin structure, just in 2 different chambers.

So stop being so freakin rude and actually read what i am saying its rather straight forward, if you cant see it when you cant, doesnt give you the right to go around calling someone a troll or an idiot when its pretty clear i am going by the book.

#233 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

^I am not wasting my time with you on this topic . Suffice to say , you made an absurd claim that Odin was present at the same meeting that Shuma-Gorath attended , and when you had the invalidity of this stance pointed out to you, you resorted to utilizing a bizarre form transitive logic , which apart from its fecal attributes , did nothing to prove this ridiculous stance that "Odin was present at the same meeting as Shum-Gorath was" . All that you're doing at this point is pouting like a child , outright misrepresenting the on-panel evidence from that comic , and abusing the flag function because you can't take being called out on your bullshit like a man .

This is my last post on this matter , as I don't want to end up getting warned by a mod . You can get the last word in if you want , I honestly don't give a phuck about this anymore .

#234 Posted by Living_Monstrosity (428 posts) - - Show Bio

@living_monstrosity said:

Oh yea, I'm totally reaching when I use an on panel statement that there were more powerful entities than the Galactus Engine following through the fault, a statement backed by a reading from tech. The MAOs did own the Celestials, and it's funny that you say I'm reaching when you just dismiss Medusa's statement and try to come up with a reason for why it couldn't be right.

There's no evidence showing that the Celestials left the battlefield in the Cancerverse to deal with Sinister. That's like saying there's no evidence that there weren't any aliens present during the first Thanksgiving so there were obviously aliens there. It's pretty clear you have a bias against all things non-cosmic - and I think I know where you get it from :/

I concede

Bout time.

^I am not wasting my time with you on this topic . Suffice to say , you made an absurd claim that Odin was present at the same meeting that Shuma-Gorath attended , and when you had the invalidity of this stance pointed out to you, you resorted to utilizing a bizarre form transitive logic , which apart from its fecal attributes , did nothing to prove this ridiculous stance that "Odin was present at the same meeting as Shum-Gorath was" . All that you're doing at this point is pouting like a child , outright misrepresenting the on-panel evidence from that comic , and abusing the flag function because you can't take being called out on your bullshit like a man .

This is my last post on this matter , as I don't want to end up getting warned by a mod . You can get the last word in if you want , I honestly don't give a phuck about this anymore .

How wonderfully ironic.

#235 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@living_monstrosity said:

@hyper_god said:

I concede

Bout time.

Editing my post is the first sign of your breakdown . Many have tried to slay the dragon . Many have fallen . Count yourself among the dead .

How wonderfully ironic.

Your sure are .

#236 Posted by Living_Monstrosity (428 posts) - - Show Bio

@living_monstrosity said:

@hyper_god said:

I concede

Bout time.

Editing my post is the first sign of your breakdown . Many have tried to slay the dragon . Many have fallen . Count yourself among the dead .

I'm sure you're great at World of Warcraft.

#237 Posted by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

^I am not wasting my time with you on this topic .

Concession accepted.

Isnt that what you keep saying?

Suffice to say , you made an absurd claim that Odin was present at the same meeting that Shuma-Gorath attended , and when you had the invalidity of this stance pointed out to you, you resorted to utilizing a bizarre form transitive logic , which apart from its fecal attributes , did nothing to prove this ridiculous stance that "Odin was present at the same meeting as Shum-Gorath was" .

1. They were INDEED present at the same time, unless you can show me 1 scans , 1 panel that says the two meeting took place in a completely different time.

2. And if you are blind to a reason and keep going "lalalal i cant show you a scan, i cant show you a writers commentary, but i am pretend being a pompus A$$ that i am and pretend you are wrong and you are illogical" then you would see differently.

Advice to you mate: get your head out of your A$$

All that you're doing at this point is pouting like a child , outright misrepresenting the on-panel evidence from that comic , and abusing the flag function because you can't take being called out on your bullshit like a man .

So i posted the whole freakin comics but i am misrepresenting scans and talking bullshit but you said nonsense like this

Gillen's intent was pretty clear : Odin and the rest of the skyfathers were peers , while Cul was on the other hand was superior to any single Hell-Lord barring Surtur perhaps .

Again i ask:

PROVE THIS

This is my last post on this matter , as I don't want to end up getting warned by a mod . You can get the last word in if you want , I honestly don't give a phuck about this anymore .

Again

Concession accepted.

Now go cry me a river

#238 Posted by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyper_god: oh, sorry

so the Celestials are multiversal now?

No they are not, not even close.

In the preceeding issue an extra-dimensional god first drained then blew dreaming celestial into peices. Although to be fair, an army of these extra-dimensional gods are destined to absorb and destroy the multiverse.

Werid part was, when Jean merged with Dark Seed of Apocalypse in the same series is shown capable of fighting a whole group of these extradimensional army when nothing about Dark Seed has ever been elluded to be half as powerful as multiversal.

#239 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

so basically the guys writing X-Men just have no sense of scale?

#240 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

No they are not, not even close.

In the preceeding issue an extra-dimensional god first drained then blew dreaming celestial into peices. Although to be fair, an army of these extra-dimensional gods are destined to absorb and destroy the multiverse.

Werid part was, when Jean merged with Dark Seed of Apocalypse in the same series is shown capable of fighting a whole group of these extradimensional army when nothing about Dark Seed has ever been elluded to be half as powerful as multiversal.

Yes they are , as a collective .

Those things were specifically designed by the Celestials to be destroyers . It's stated right there on-panel .

The Death Seed is supposed to be the only thing that can counter them . That too has been stated on-panel .

#241 Edited by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall:

so basically the guys writing X-Men just have no sense of scale?

I think so yes, its weird, the Xtermination guy came up with a weird logic for why a celestial would be unique in the multiverse yet we have seen Arishem in an alternate reality destroyed by human kind.

Many things there dont make sense.

Not to mention every previous book on creation of the universe talk about a our universe/ multiverse being born after the destruction of the previous universe/ multiverse, and the previous being born after the destruction of Infinite being. There was no before Infinite being, it was all chaos , and even that Chaos got a name in a later story arc called Chaos Wars.

Not sure what they are pulling these stuffs from.

Yes they are , as a collective .

Those things were specifically designed by the Celestials to be destroyers . It's stated right there on-panel .

The Death Seed is supposed to be the only thing that can counter them . That too has been stated on-panel .

1.I know where you are coming from, but that's not really a consistent potrayal of power from Celestial. Besides it says they broke the universe into a multiverse not sure how to evaluate that feat in itself.

2. They were made to be destroyer of life, just a generic destroyer nothing specific about Celestials in general.

3. In Apocalypse yes Death Seed is the only thing that can stop them, the Seed was created for the same exactly purpose as the original black goo that later evolved into the monsters, its not something unique against the extradimensional gods, at least not that i found thus far (although i missed part 1 of the Extermination arc), would you happen to have a scan to point that.

4. We also have a Prophet vaguely eluding Phoenix being more powerful than Death Seed, but thats very vague which i admit.

Unless there is something concrete showing either those being to be like a kryptonite to the celestials, or black seed being like a kryptonite to the extradimensional god, i dont see how either of them (extradimensional gods as well as the seed) can be considered multiversal power yet its been shown clearly they are superior to individual celestials.

#242 Edited by laflux (14133 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyper_god and @killemall

At this rate you will threaten the very fabric of the Comicvine Multiverse!!!!!!!!!!!

#243 Posted by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@hyper_god and @killemall

At this rate you will threaten the very fabric of the Comicvine Multiverse!!!!!!!!!!!

Apart from one heated disagreement on 1 topic, i dont think there is much of a loss between us.

Disagreement, heated or otherwise, are part of a debate thing.

And apart from that point, we are both debating against each other just the way we do.

Its not a big deal, although i am waiting for both Brevroot and Gillen to reply on the question i asked them, and hoping they both have the same answer which should settle my and H_G argument.

#244 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

I know where you are coming from, but that's not really a consistent potrayal of power from Celestial.

Doesn't really matter . Most recent takes precedence , and you're also ignoring the fact that Tiamut , in the very same series , had a multiversal hole blown in his head , and is coming off fresh from his Sinister encounter which saw his energies getting depleted . The very same series even refers him as one of the most powerful things in the universe .

That being said , I think most writers don't give a shit about continuity like this and they redo stuff the way they see fit depending on their current project . Particularly a writer like Pak . Trying to fit everything into place is a waste of time and a cause for headaches .

Besides it says they broke the universe into a multiverse not sure how to evaluate that feat in itself.

It's exactly what it is . Reality was a universe originally . They shaped this original prime universe , and after the Exterminator fiasco was handled , they shattered this prime universe into a multiverse . I don't see what's so hard to grasp about here .

They were made to be destroyer of life, just a generic destroyer nothing specific about Celestials in general.

I am sorry , but what is this ? You think the Celestials aren't living beings ? In that very multiversal creation flashback , it is mentioned that these monsters could potentially consume the multiverse .

"Just as they were meant to ." What does that tell us ? That these creatures were designed to be destroyers and were meant to consume everything in the multiverse .

Their purpose was pure destruction . Just as it's mentioned in this scan :

In Apocalypse yes Death Seed is the only thing that can stop them, the Seed was created for the same exactly purpose as the original black goo that later evolved into the monsters, its not something unique against the extradimensional gods, at least not that i found thus far (although i missed part 1 of the Extermination arc), would you happen to have a scan to point that.

It's mentioned here :

It's the very anti-thesis of what they feed upon . It would be highly effective against them . So yeah , it is pretty much their kryptonite .

We also have a Prophet vaguely eluding Phoenix being more powerful than Death Seed, but thats very vague which i admit.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/102593/2991813-01.jpg

Unless there is something concrete showing either those being to be like a kryptonite to the celestials, or black seed being like a kryptonite to the extradimensional god, i dont see how either of them (extradimensional gods as well as the seed) can be considered multiversal power yet its been shown clearly they are superior to individual celestials.

You're projecting a colloquialism as a literal word . By that logic you would expect someone who paraphrases "yeah, so the Olympics are only a little harder than the regional competitions" in day-to-day conversations to *literally* mean slightly harder . Pak is obviously adopting a colloquial tone by saying "hey, so you're xy and z" when he's speaking for Jean and the Death Seed .

Pak isn't contradicting himself here . He's using day-to-day colloquial exchange.

Don't be mistaken here . Those monsters aren't superior to individual Celestials just because one of them managed to drain a compromised Tiamut . Remember who it was that sealed them to begin with . This supposed low showing for Tiamut does nothing to undermine what Pak has told us in Astonishing X-Men : that the Celestials are literally the Creators of the Multiverse .

Which is exactly what my stance is here : that collectively they have power on a multiversal scale .

Edit : For example , nobody in their right mind would try and use Izanami's magic affecting Lucifer as an argument against Lucifer's power to shape a multiverse . The same logic is applicable in this case as well , i.e that what those creatures are capable of doing to the Celestials shouldn't be held against the power to create the Marvel Multiverse that the Celestials wield under the same writer .

#245 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

Apart from one heated disagreement on 1 topic, i dont think there is much of a loss between us.

Disagreement, heated or otherwise, are part of a debate thing.

And apart from that point, we are both debating against each other just the way we do.

Its not a big deal, although i am waiting for both Brevroot and Gillen to reply on the question i asked them, and hoping they both have the same answer which should settle my and H_G argument.

I don't care about it anymore . My last post regarding the matter was indeed my last post . Why else did I let you have the last word on that issue ? You can go ahead an clarify this with the writer and the editor if you want , I honestly wouldn't give a phuck even if I am proven right .

@laflux said:

At this rate you will threaten the very fabric of the Comicvine Multiverse!!!!!!!!!!!

No .

#246 Posted by laflux (14133 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

At this rate you will threaten the very fabric of the Comicvine Multiverse!!!!!!!!!!!

No .

:(

#247 Edited by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio

Doesn't really matter . Most recent takes precedence , and you're also ignoring the fact that Tiamut , in the very same series , had a multiversal hole blown in his head , and is coming off fresh from his Sinister encounter which saw his energies getting depleted . The very same series even refers him as one of the most powerful things in the universe .

No it doesnt, we just dont throw a well established continuity out of the window specially against such a well established character, thats one reason why some fights are labelled PIS and other not. But i suppose at the end of the day its about personal preference.

They used Tiamut to come to a different reality using a loophole that a Celestial apparently is connected to the multiverse , which itself is a new concept that contradicts in Arishem being killed in one reality.

And all they did was tore a hole in the fabric of the multiverse

The fabric of multiverse is fragile, as it was nearly broken as a result of a fight between Odin and Seth

It was also nearly destroyed in the fight between Galactus, The Other and Scarier , none of whom are close to being multiversal.

So i dont think that feat actually was really impressive, not that i am discounting that feat itself which was cool.

And Sinister draining Dreaming Celestial takes place before AvX its more than 1 year ago, not sure why that should have any bearing on what happened here. It should have given Dreaming Celestial enough time to power up.

After all the first time Dreaming Celestial woke up during Eternity vol 2 it did not take him too long, and he turned from black to golden, which apparently happens when he is all out of power

That being said , I think most writers don't give a shit about continuity like this and they redo stuff the way they see fit depending on their current project . Particularly a writer like Pak . Trying to fit everything into place is a waste of time and a cause for headaches .

I agree, although i dont know a lot of specific about Pak himself as a writer. That being said , one feat, which you gotta admit is pretty ambigious and weird to think about should contradict a well established hierarchy of Celestial not really being anywhere close to multiversal in power level.

It's exactly what it is . Reality was a universe originally . They shaped this original prime universe , and after the Exterminator fiasco was handled , they shattered this prime universe into a multiverse . I don't see what's so hard to grasp about here .

Its not a hard concept to grasp its a weird feat to accomplished given how they have been consistently potrayed throughout the history. My problem with this is not that the feat isnt clear , but rather doesnt fit well in the continuity.

BTW just read Extermination 01, Celestials were elluded to have been the architect of all creation there as well, so writer's intention at least on the said feat is pretty clear (at least after having finished reading Extermination 1, which i finished like 2 hrs ago):

They were made to be destroyer of life, just a generic destroyer nothing specific about Celestials in general.

I am sorry , but what is this ? You think the Celestials aren't living beings ? In that very multiversal creation flashback , it is mentioned that they could potentially consume the multiverse .

"Just as they were meant to ." What does that tell us ? That these creatures were designed to be destroyers and were meant to consume everything in the multiverse . Just as it's mentioned in this scan :

Not sure what i said was wrong or how it contradicts anything i said.

I said they were destroyed of life, but nothing specifically meant for Celestial so it by no means a kryptonite for celestial, they just destroy life not anything specific for the celestial.

So not sure how you misunderstood my orginal reply that they were meant to be destroyer of generic life, nothing special for Celestial, just life in general.

Also it goes on to say:

"They made life.. for the Darkness".

So Celestial were born before the creation of universe (which itself is weird) and they made life so and we are talking about shaping creation, so Celestial most likely than not, in this issue and this issue alone, were kept separate from generic life though or at least thats how i see it.

UNRELATED : One looks like Eson, Arishem and Nezarrr

(not addressing the next paragraph, all i can say is thanks for the correction , i must have missed that part)

You're projecting a colloquialism as a literal word . By that logic you would expect someone who paraphrases "yeah, so the Olympics are only a little harder than the regional competitions" in day-to-day conversations to *literally* mean slightly harder . Pak is obviously adopting a colloquial tone by saying "hey, so you're xy and z" when he's speaking for Jean and the Death Seed .

Pak isn't contradicting himself here . He's using day-to-day colloquial exchange.

Don't be mistaken here . Those monsters aren't superior to individual Celestials just because one of them managed to drain a compromised Tiamut . Remember who it was that sealed them to begin with . This supposed low showing for Tiamut does nothing to undermine what Pak has told us in Astonishing X-Men : that the Celestials are literally the Creators of the Multiverse .

Which is exactly what my stance is here : that collectively they have power on a multiversal scale .

Ok first gotta google what "colloquialism" is :) no idea what it is.

I dont think i understood what the world actually means it just says its a way of expression.

Although i have no clue how the bolded part is relevant, perhaps i am missing the part.

It reads "This is not the first time you have held godlike powers, Jean. You were the Phoenix. You are stronger than the death seed".

I take it as meaning: you had held the power of phoenix so you are stronger than the seed, or something along the line. Not sure where "little" or anything comes from.

The celestials banished the energy before it could take the shape of the monster as on panel we see them as black good, as compared to now or after 2 panel where we see them as robotic being they "likely evolved".

Also Tiamut apart from losing, the first thing he did upon seeing the extradimensional monster was flee, i think that also shows they were stronger than him, why else would you flee?

So Tiamut for one was shown to be inferior or at least thats how i see it.

#248 Edited by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall said:

No it doesnt, we just dont throw a well established continuity out of the window specially against such a well established character, thats one reason why some fights are labelled PIS and other not. But i suppose at the end of the day its about personal preference.
They used Tiamut to come to a different reality using a loophole that a Celestial apparently is connected to the multiverse , which itself is a new concept that contradicts in Arishem being killed in one reality.

We don't get to pick and chose what we like or don't like . Most recent takes precedence , and you're going against the forum rules if you want to discount what is most recent .

I agree, although i dont know a lot of specific about Pak himself as a writer. That being said , one feat, which you gotta admit is pretty ambigious and weird to think about should contradict a well established hierarchy of Celestial not really being anywhere close to multiversal in power level.

It's not really ambiguous though . It's practically stated on-panel that the multiverse was originally a single reality which the Celestials later separated into several universes . It's a shared feat , that much nobody is disputing , but to claim that it is anything but a multiversal feat is severe reaching imo .

Its not a hard concept to grasp its a weird feat to accomplished given how they have been consistently potrayed throughout the history. My problem with this is not that the feat isnt clear , but rather doesnt fit well in the continuity.

How have they been portrayed ? Holding their own against Franklin Richards who briefly held off the the collapse of all realities into a single timestream , or defeating an amped version of Galactus , who during his collision with Scrier and the Other nearly destroyed the multiverse ? Or the statements made by Kubik , a legit universal power , which tell us that Celestials are literally orders of magnitude beyond his own power ? If anything , this display of power is within what the Celestials' scale of power has been implied to be in continuity from what I can tell .

Not sure what i said was wrong or how it contradicts anything i said.

I said they were destroyed of life, but nothing specifically meant for Celestial so it by no means a kryptonite for celestial, they just destroy life not anything specific for the celestial.

So not sure how you misunderstood my orginal reply that they were meant to be destroyer of generic life, nothing special for Celestial, just life in general.

You misunderstood my own stance as well . I did not point to these Exterminators as being Celestial kryptonite , I am merely stating that a lone Celestial losing to them isn't proof of any internal inconsistency nor is it a low showing by any standards given what these creatures were specifically designed to do by the Celestials themselves .

Also it goes on to say:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/102593/2992141-04.jpg

"They made life.. for the Darkness".

So Celestial were born before the creation of universe (which itself is weird) and they made life so and we are talking about shaping creation, so Celestial most likely than not, in this issue and this issue alone, were kept separate from generic life though or at least thats how i see it.

UNRELATED : One looks like Eson, Arishem and Nezarrr

(not addressing the next paragraph, all i can say is thanks for the correction , i must have missed that part)

I am not sure what you're trying to prove here . Just because it's implied that they predate Creation and that they created life , you're presupposing that this implies that they themselves aren't living entities to begin with .

You be alive and still be capable of creating life . That's not hard to understand .

It reads "This is not the first time you have held godlike powers, Jean. You were the Phoenix. You are stronger than the death seed".

I take it as meaning: you had held the power of phoenix so you are stronger than the seed, or something along the line. Not sure where "little" or anything comes from.

The celestials banished the energy before it could take the shape of the monster as on panel we see them as black good, as compared to now or after 2 panel where we see them as robotic being they "likely evolved".

What that actually means is that since Jean already has experience in dealing with the corrupting influence of godlike power(ala the Phoenix) , she is strong enough to resist the Death Seed as well . That's what those words mean when she's mentioned as being "stronger than the Death Seed". It in no way implies that Phoenix Force is more powerful than the Death Seed , and even if such a hypothesis has any value to it , that has nothing to do with anything as we now conclusively know that the Death Seed is the kryptonite of the Exterminators .

Also Tiamut apart from losing, the first thing he did upon seeing the extradimensional monster was flee, i think that also shows they were stronger than him, why else would you flee?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/102593/2992173-age+of+apocalypse+014-013.jpg

So Tiamut for one was shown to be inferior or at least thats how i see it.

You got your scans mixed up . Tiamut fled only after fighting and getting hurt by that energy tick :

Tiamut is also accredited as being one of the most powerful beings in the universe in these scans . Basically speaking , it was Pak's intent to showcase what a major major threat these monsters were if even a Celestial couldn't handle them . Which is what I have been saying about them all along . Hence the reason that why using what these things did to Tiamut , or how the Celestials had to handle them , isn't a foolproof way of proving any internal inconsistency on Pak's part nor should this be considered low showing of any sorts .

Also , note how Wolverine mentions in the first scan that "an interdimensional portal exploded in your(the Celestial's) head" . Think about what this means .

#249 Posted by Killemall (18255 posts) - - Show Bio


We don't get to pick and chose what we like or don't like . Most recent takes precedence , and you're going against the forum rules if you want to discount what is most recent .

I think you are confusing the battle forum rule. Its that, unless otherwise stated its the most recent version of the character. That applies if a character is retconned , Celestials arent, most of DC character however are.

We dont normally ignore the whole established chronology of the character, unless the character is potrayed completely differently, for example: Demogorge.

It's not really ambiguous though . It's practically stated on-panel that the multiverse was originally a single reality which the Celestials later separated into several universes . It's a shared feat , that much nobody is disputing , but to claim that it is anything but a multiversal feat is severe reaching imo .

I agree, its not ambigious, thats was a bad choice of word, what i was trying to say was it doesnt fit the continuity well, but rest i agree, specially since there is an earlier mention of them elluding the same feat.

I am not saying the feat isnt multiversal, its weird and out of nowhere considering a well established continuity of Celestial.

Apart from it not fitting the continuity i agree.

How have they been portrayed ? Holding their own against Franklin Richards who briefly held off the the collapse of all realities into a single timestream , or defeating an amped version of Galactus , who during his collision with Scrier and the Other nearly destroyed the multiverse ? Or the statements made by Kubik , a legit universal power , which tell us that Celestials are literally orders of magnitude beyond his own power ? If anything , this display of power is within what the Celestials' scale of power has been implied to be in continuity from what I can tell .

1. Kubik's statement never made a lot of sense to me personally given how cosmic cube themselves are potrayed but its on panel as well as backed by handbook so i dont have much of a ground to argue against it. It weird though seeing what Thanos did with a CCU, or what CCU has done in many differently realities celestials being above CCU seems a bit odd.

2. Galactus vs Scarier vs The Other apparently has universal. I couldnt find Matt's formspring page, so i asked the question to Brevroot as well as Hickman both replied it being universe (although Hickman said he hasnt read it but believes it to be universal). Then i also checked the issue apart from the supposedly destruction being better than what Mikaboshi did everything else seem to be referring to a universal destruction. I had it in my mind that Mikaboshi destroyed the multiverse, 3 different bio state it to be universal, in fact Incredible Hulk issue immediately after that (cant recall the exact issue number, the same issue where Hulk goes to fight Zeus, the actual fight takes place next issue) addresses the feat as universal as well. I am more thinking Mikaboshi's feat itself was universe and the destruction from fight likely on the same magnitude.

3. As per how they are normally potrayed:

a. Being defeated in an alternate reality by human evolved beyond their normal standard due to the bomb set out by Highevolultionary (What if High Evoluationary won the Evolutionary war)

b. Requiring a whole group to contain Ego Prime.

c. Unable to beat and having to retreat against the Galactus Engine.

d. Being stalemated by Franklin Richard (kid)

e. Phoenix Jean being able to burn off Arishem hand yet Celestial doing nothing to retaliate. (i have not actually read this issue)

f. Needing a whole army and still struggling against the Goblin force.

None of the above should be close to multiversal in power level.

You misunderstood my own stance as well . I did not point to these Exterminators as being Celestial kryptonite , I am merely stating that a lone Celestial losing to them isn't proof of any internal inconsistency nor is it a low showing by any standards given what these creatures were specifically designed to do by the Celestials themselves .

Apologies then, this i agree :)

I am not sure what you're trying to prove here . Just because it's implied that they predate Creation and that they created life , you're presupposing that this implies that they themselves aren't living entities to begin with .

You be alive and still be capable of creating life . That's not hard to understand .

Ok lets see:

1. What i am saying is these monsters where not meant to be a kryptonite to celestial themselves (which is a point you already addressed above)

2. Celestial were the one who created life, then the monsters were created who were said to be threat to life, one way of looking at that would be threat to the conventional life as opposed to a major threat to celestial themselves.

What that actually means is that since Jean already has experience in dealing with the corrupting influence of godlike power(ala the Phoenix) , she is strong enough to resist the Death Seed as well . That's what those words mean when she's mentioned as being "stronger than the Death Seed". It in no way implies that Phoenix Force is more powerful than the Death Seed , and even if such a hypothesis has any value to it , that has nothing to do with anything as we now conclusively know that the Death Seed is the kryptonite of the Exterminators .

After having read that bolded part i agree :) that sounds like more reasonable explanation than the one i interpreted earlier.

You got your scans mixed up . Tiamut fled only after fighting and getting hurt by that energy tick :

Tiamut is also accredited as being one of the most powerful beings in the universe in these scans . Basically speaking , it was Pak's intent to showcase what a major major threat these monsters were if even a Celestial couldn't handle them . Which is what I have been saying about them all along . Hence the reason that why using what these things did to Tiamut , or how the Celestials had to handle them , isn't a foolproof way of proving any internal inconsistency on Pak's part nor should this be considered low showing of any sorts .

Also , note how Wolverine mentions in the first scan that "an interdimensional portal exploded in your(the Celestial's) head" . Think about what this means .

Fair enough, this makes a lot more sense :)

#250 Edited by Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe (310 posts) - - Show Bio

It's actually said on panel in Strange Tales II #16 that Shuma-Gorath is the leader of the Old Ones. It's not just handbook info.

"-- And that in turn left the world vulnerable to the return of the eldritch Old Ones, led by Shuma-Gorath..."

Whoa, a Shuma scan I haven't seen before. Got any more of them?