#101 Posted by cosmic_reign (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Setherial: Alright i'll repost it here.

@Betatesthighlander1: @Setherial: @Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial: On panel, an imp said there were multiple levels of infinity, hardly word of god

Actually thats not the only time and its the only idea that fits marvel cosmology, because not only is marvel beyond physical dimensionally trans-infinite, it is so in terms of powers.

And Kubik's statement was in regards to power having level of infinity, a scan which you have already been shown.

Under this light, it makes more sense:

In terms of power people who have been called omnipotent: 1. Eternity 2. Living Tribunal 3. Cosmic Cube Being 4. Thanos with IG 5. Thanos with HOTU and for lols Dr. Strange and Odin have both been called omnipotent as well, alongside omnipotent Oshtur.

Point was in some regards they are omnipotent, as in capable of doing seemingly anything, despite that there are being beyond their level of omnipotence.

Same with size, every universe is infinite, a multiverse as infinite number of infinite universes, so we have seen beyond infinity. Then we have yet bigger concepts like Megaverse and Omniverse.

Marvel approves Cantor's theory of infinity, and has been build under the same theory.

As per Gorath being virtually omnipotent in his realm, Celestial are virtually omnipotent everwhere :p

Marvel Encyclopedia 2004 : look under power/Weapons =)

THIS^

#102 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@BigCimmerian said:

I have those scans and I've read that issue several times, there is no proof he amped him, he was only yelling rise rise RISE and then said to me my Galactus, he could probably be amped, but there is no proof and I think that energy ball from Franklin was only to revive Galactus., same as when Mikaboshi was in Zeus body when Zeus took down Galactus, only proof that he was amped was that Mikaboshi left his body.

Mister Franklin used kid Franklin's power to rejuvenate Galactus . Jonathan Hickman confirmed that Galactus was being powered by Franklin when he tore a Celestial apart . You don't know what you're talking about .

#103 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

WOW! How can people here say the Celestials here stand a ghost of a chance at all?

As people are posting up Galactus (being Well Fed) and doing this to one Celestial with ease.

They are forgetting one very important thing

@BigCimmerian said:

@cosmic_reign: Here Galactus wasn't amped by Franklin.

DR. DOOM!!!

It was Dr. Doom who played the true hero of Fantastic Four #600 through #604

Anyway, before the Mad Celestials fought against Galactus, Dr. Doom was fighting all four of them by himself for 28 minutes! He managed to weaken them so some degree until all of them concentrated their fire power at max against him.

Doom appeared to die....

But he only pretended

- So that he can allow Galactus to fight against the Mad Celestials as Valeria had planned from the get go! You see, Dr. Doom is fond of Valeria because they have a history together and he didn't want to hurt her feelings because she confessed to Doom that she used him for a sacrifice against the Mad Celestials to buy Galactus time. Of course Doom always has his own agenda, but the point of bringing him up, is that he is the one credited for saving 616. He fought the four Mad Celestials that fought against Galactus..... TOYING WITH THEM! And acted as he pretended to die just so they can fight Galactus.

Doom speaking out loud: "I guess I bit off more than I could chew..... I might regret this..... Noooooooo!!!!!!!"

Doom's thoughts as he's laying down next to the charred Reed Richards *Those fools fell for it!!!*

Anyways!

If Dr. Doom (who btw can easily rip the power of Galactus away with ease) can play around with the Mad Celestials for 28 minutes while they are (quoted by the Celestials, "An annoyance!") are being as serious as they can to put him down. But Dr. Doom who played with these Mad Celestials (Four of them), has a very hard time controlling the power of Cyttorak, that he has to worship and pray to Cyttorak in order to control the power right and is Second to Dr Strange in magic is still no match for Shuma-Gorath even if he tried.

What does this say about the Mad Celestials going against Cyttorak & Shuma-Gorath?

One might say:

"Well, This battle is the 4th Hosts, so we have to use them."

Another will respond:

"Well, the Mad Celestials are as powerful as the 616 Counter Parts, so says Jonathan Hickman. Here, I have the scans."

And another one might follow up and say:

"Oh! well if Hickman says so then it might be true!"

Well then congratulations!

You've just realized that the 4th Host & the Mad Celestials are absolutely no match for team two! XD

#104 Posted by BigCimmerian (8305 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hyper_God said:

@BigCimmerian said:

I have those scans and I've read that issue several times, there is no proof he amped him, he was only yelling rise rise RISE and then said to me my Galactus, he could probably be amped, but there is no proof and I think that energy ball from Franklin was only to revive Galactus., same as when Mikaboshi was in Zeus body when Zeus took down Galactus, only proof that he was amped was that Mikaboshi left his body.

Mister Franklin used kid Franklin's power to rejuvenate Galactus . Jonathan Hickman confirmed that Galactus was being powered by Franklin when he tore a Celestial apart . You don't know what you're talking about .

Ok, it still don't change the fact that he one shotted Celestial before he was defeated by remaining combined Celestials.

#105 Posted by thanosii (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

shuma solos cytorrack soloes

#106 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@Setherial: You said Shuma was omnipotent, when clearly he is not

#107 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall: "virtually" means that humans see them as Omnipotent, not that they actually are. to most early civilizations, Skyfathers seemed and were identified as omnipotent, when they do in fact have limits to their powers. omnipotent is an infinitive, it describes the most powerful, someone cannot be most powerful if there are beings more powerful, Only one being can have all power, and that one being's only weapon, according to Uatu, is love. and that was written be Stan Lee, so don't you throw around words like non-canon.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: you forgot to give a reason why Cytorak or Shuma re more powerful than Celestials, Show us one scan of either doing anything that would put them on level

#108 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Killemall: "virtually" means that humans see them as Omnipotent, not that they actually are. to most early civilizations, Skyfathers seemed and were identified as omnipotent, when they do in fact have limits to their powers. omnipotent is an infinitive, it describes the most powerful, someone cannot be most powerful if there are beings more powerful, Only one being can have all power, and that one being's only weapon, according to Uatu, is love. and that was written be Stan Lee, so don't you throw around words like non-canon.

I dont actually get what you mean, if you are trying to say omnipotent in real world thats a differen thing. Marvel, however follows Greg Cantor theory of level of infinity and by extension level of omnipotence as you saw you scans talking about the same thing, and without having level of infinity, or a concept of beyond infinity Marvel cosmology cant exist.

Then Utau did say that in a what if, but lets ignore that because its still a parellel universe in marvel multiverse. You say one person is omnipotent and his power is only Love? doesnt that contradict it, in itself? How can an omnipotent being have a limit on his power and it be limited to only love. Besides we know the greatest level on omnipotence in Marvel is TOAA, the writers, are you suggesting the only power writers have in comics is love?

#109 Posted by X_insignia1 (1393 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSecondOpinion said:

The Celestials can not exist in any other dimension besides the ones that inside the realm of Eternity.

eh, this sounds incorrect, could you supply any proof of this?

this honesty doesn't seem accurate imo.

#110 Posted by X_insignia1 (1393 posts) - - Show Bio

@BigCimmerian said:

@cosmic_reign said:

@BigCimmerian said:

@cosmic_reign: Here Galactus wasn't amped by Franklin.

Yes Galactus has killed a celestial with his own power....This was the most powerful version of Galactus (using his own power) weve seen in comics. He had eatin 4 planets for this battle. (whereas he was hungry and weak and stalemated Agamotto (Elder god level) in his own backyard).

U mentioned that BIg G ripped a celestial apart which did happen but he WAS amped by FR. Sorry for no scan but to me looks like Frankin siphoned his own energy from within him into a sphere then shot it off to bring Galactus back to life. I'll attempt to post scans if necessary but i think its quite obvious with all the crackle effects and all that this was a supercharged Galactus. Maybe FR himself as the dialog says "this is who your son will be, this is who he is." (pure speculation)

Anyways, i was referring to Franklin Richards who i dont think was shown to have killed a celestial on his own.

I have those scans and I've read that issue several times, there is no proof he amped him, he was only yelling rise rise RISE and then said to me my Galactus, he could probably be amped, but there is no proof and I think that energy ball from Franklin was only to revive Galactus., same as when Mikaboshi was in Zeus body when Zeus took down Galactus, only proof that he was amped was that Mikaboshi left his body.

He was amped by Franklin. in other-words Hickman himself stated the reason why Galactus was ripping through that Celestial was due to the fact that HE WAS powered by Franklin. There is hardly any room for any other interpretation.

#111 Posted by cosmic_reign (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

WOW! How can people here say the Celestials here stand a ghost of a chance at all?

As people are posting up Galactus (being Well Fed) and doing this to one Celestial with ease.

They are forgetting one very important thing

@BigCimmerian said:

@cosmic_reign: Here Galactus wasn't amped by Franklin.

DR. DOOM!!!

It was Dr. Doom who played the true hero of Fantastic Four #600 through #604

Anyway, before the Mad Celestials fought against Galactus, Dr. Doom was fighting all four of them by himself for 28 minutes! He managed to weaken them so some degree until all of them concentrated their fire power at max against him.

Doom appeared to die....

But he only pretended

- So that he can allow Galactus to fight against the Mad Celestials as Valeria had planned from the get go! You see, Dr. Doom is fond of Valeria because they have a history together and he didn't want to hurt her feelings because she confessed to Doom that she used him for a sacrifice against the Mad Celestials to buy Galactus time. Of course Doom always has his own agenda, but the point of bringing him up, is that he is the one credited for saving 616. He fought the four Mad Celestials that fought against Galactus..... TOYING WITH THEM! And acted as he pretended to die just so they can fight Galactus.

Doom speaking out loud: "I guess I bit off more than I could chew..... I might regret this..... Noooooooo!!!!!!!"

Doom's thoughts as he's laying down next to the charred Reed Richards *Those fools fell for it!!!*

Anyways!

If Dr. Doom (who btw can easily rip the power of Galactus away with ease) can play around with the Mad Celestials for 28 minutes while they are (quoted by the Celestials, "An annoyance!") are being as serious as they can to put him down. But Dr. Doom who played with these Mad Celestials (Four of them), has a very hard time controlling the power of Cyttorak, that he has to worship and pray to Cyttorak in order to control the power right and is Second to Dr Strange in magic is still no match for Shuma-Gorath even if he tried.

What does this say about the Mad Celestials going against Cyttorak & Shuma-Gorath?

One might say:

"Well, This battle is the 4th Hosts, so we have to use them."

Another will respond:

"Well, the Mad Celestials are as powerful as the 616 Counter Parts, so says Jonathan Hickman. Here, I have the scans."

And another one might follow up and say:

"Oh! well if Hickman says so then it might be true!"

Well then congratulations!

You've just realized that the 4th Host & the Mad Celestials are absolutely no match for team two! XD

Okay, ur argument here is irrevelant. Dr. Doom was considered a simple annoyance (like a gnat flyning around ur food).

Anyways, If the Mad Celestials are as powerful as their 616 counterparts, then SG + Cyttorak will be fighting NOT 4 celestials that nearly took over the multiverse BUT 9 of them. Not to mention that 1 of them (Arishem) is leaps and bounds more powerful than the other members of the Host.

#112 Posted by Hyper_God (933 posts) - - Show Bio

@BigCimmerian said:

@Hyper_God said:

@BigCimmerian said:

I have those scans and I've read that issue several times, there is no proof he amped him, he was only yelling rise rise RISE and then said to me my Galactus, he could probably be amped, but there is no proof and I think that energy ball from Franklin was only to revive Galactus., same as when Mikaboshi was in Zeus body when Zeus took down Galactus, only proof that he was amped was that Mikaboshi left his body.

Mister Franklin used kid Franklin's power to rejuvenate Galactus . Jonathan Hickman confirmed that Galactus was being powered by Franklin when he tore a Celestial apart . You don't know what you're talking about .

Ok, it still don't change the fact that he one shotted Celestial before he was defeated by remaining combined Celestials.

He was super-charged on 4 planets in that instant . Galactus was also the one to initiate the battle with them on-panel in Fantastic Four # 603 . He didn't get struck by any of their attacks during the battle itself . The only times he was hit , he got phucked up . The first hit was by the merged Celestial which nearly killed him . The second was by Eson and rocked Galactus after Franklin revived him . Hickman portrayed both Galactus and Celestials as peers with one hit from either damaging the other .

#113 Posted by Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe (310 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_reign said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

WOW! How can people here say the Celestials here stand a ghost of a chance at all?

As people are posting up Galactus (being Well Fed) and doing this to one Celestial with ease.

They are forgetting one very important thing

@BigCimmerian said:

@cosmic_reign: Here Galactus wasn't amped by Franklin.

DR. DOOM!!!

It was Dr. Doom who played the true hero of Fantastic Four #600 through #604

Anyway, before the Mad Celestials fought against Galactus, Dr. Doom was fighting all four of them by himself for 28 minutes! He managed to weaken them so some degree until all of them concentrated their fire power at max against him.

Doom appeared to die....

But he only pretended

- So that he can allow Galactus to fight against the Mad Celestials as Valeria had planned from the get go! You see, Dr. Doom is fond of Valeria because they have a history together and he didn't want to hurt her feelings because she confessed to Doom that she used him for a sacrifice against the Mad Celestials to buy Galactus time. Of course Doom always has his own agenda, but the point of bringing him up, is that he is the one credited for saving 616. He fought the four Mad Celestials that fought against Galactus..... TOYING WITH THEM! And acted as he pretended to die just so they can fight Galactus.

Doom speaking out loud: "I guess I bit off more than I could chew..... I might regret this..... Noooooooo!!!!!!!"

Doom's thoughts as he's laying down next to the charred Reed Richards *Those fools fell for it!!!*

Anyways!

If Dr. Doom (who btw can easily rip the power of Galactus away with ease) can play around with the Mad Celestials for 28 minutes while they are (quoted by the Celestials, "An annoyance!") are being as serious as they can to put him down. But Dr. Doom who played with these Mad Celestials (Four of them), has a very hard time controlling the power of Cyttorak, that he has to worship and pray to Cyttorak in order to control the power right and is Second to Dr Strange in magic is still no match for Shuma-Gorath even if he tried.

What does this say about the Mad Celestials going against Cyttorak & Shuma-Gorath?

One might say:

"Well, This battle is the 4th Hosts, so we have to use them."

Another will respond:

"Well, the Mad Celestials are as powerful as the 616 Counter Parts, so says Jonathan Hickman. Here, I have the scans."

And another one might follow up and say:

"Oh! well if Hickman says so then it might be true!"

Well then congratulations!

You've just realized that the 4th Host & the Mad Celestials are absolutely no match for team two! XD

Okay, ur argument here is irrevelant. Dr. Doom was considered a simple annoyance (like a gnat flyning around ur food).

Anyways, If the Mad Celestials are as powerful as their 616 counterparts, then SG + Cyttorak will be fighting NOT 4 celestials that nearly took over the multiverse BUT 9 of them. Not to mention that 1 of them (Arishem) is leaps and bounds more powerful than the other members of the Host.

Arishem couldn't even handle the Galactus Engine that Shuma helped empower.

#114 Edited by Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe (310 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: I'm sure that had Strange with Shuma's power let loose he could have been a universal threat, but the reaction of his power in the realm caused Kaluu to affirm that Strange would destroy galaxies by standing within Earth's dimension, not the universe or multiverse or what have you.

#115 Edited by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_reign said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

WOW! How can people here say the Celestials here stand a ghost of a chance at all?

As people are posting up Galactus (being Well Fed) and doing this to one Celestial with ease.

They are forgetting one very important thing

@BigCimmerian said:

@cosmic_reign: Here Galactus wasn't amped by Franklin.

DR. DOOM!!!

It was Dr. Doom who played the true hero of Fantastic Four #600 through #604

Anyway, before the Mad Celestials fought against Galactus, Dr. Doom was fighting all four of them by himself for 28 minutes! He managed to weaken them so some degree until all of them concentrated their fire power at max against him.

Doom appeared to die....


But he only pretended

- So that he can allow Galactus to fight against the Mad Celestials as Valeria had planned from the get go! You see, Dr. Doom is fond of Valeria because they have a history together and he didn't want to hurt her feelings because she confessed to Doom that she used him for a sacrifice against the Mad Celestials to buy Galactus time. Of course Doom always has his own agenda, but the point of bringing him up, is that he is the one credited for saving 616. He fought the four Mad Celestials that fought against Galactus..... TOYING WITH THEM! And acted as he pretended to die just so they can fight Galactus.

Doom speaking out loud: "I guess I bit off more than I could chew..... I might regret this..... Noooooooo!!!!!!!"

Doom's thoughts as he's laying down next to the charred Reed Richards *Those fools fell for it!!!*

Anyways!

If Dr. Doom (who btw can easily rip the power of Galactus away with ease) can play around with the Mad Celestials for 28 minutes while they are (quoted by the Celestials, "An annoyance!") are being as serious as they can to put him down. But Dr. Doom who played with these Mad Celestials (Four of them), has a very hard time controlling the power of Cyttorak, that he has to worship and pray to Cyttorak in order to control the power right and is Second to Dr Strange in magic is still no match for Shuma-Gorath even if he tried.

What does this say about the Mad Celestials going against Cyttorak & Shuma-Gorath?

One might say:

"Well, This battle is the 4th Hosts, so we have to use them."


Another will respond:

"Well, the Mad Celestials are as powerful as the 616 Counter Parts, so says Jonathan Hickman. Here, I have the scans."

And another one might follow up and say:

"Oh! well if Hickman says so then it might be true!"

Well then congratulations!

You've just realized that the 4th Host & the Mad Celestials are absolutely no match for team two! XD

Okay, ur argument here is irrevelant. Dr. Doom was considered a simple annoyance (like a gnat flyning around ur food).

Anyways, If the Mad Celestials are as powerful as their 616 counterparts, then SG + Cyttorak will be fighting NOT 4 celestials that nearly took over the multiverse BUT 9 of them. Not to mention that 1 of them (Arishem) is leaps and bounds more powerful than the other members of the Host.

Oh no... It is very relevant.

There was a reason why Doom was being "an annoyance" to the Four Mad Celestials.

They couldn't hurt him separately!

They figured out after the 27th minute that Dr. Doom was extraordinary more powerful than they've "ANALYZED" . He was toying with them, and they realized that ALL FOUR OF THEM had to concentrate their maximum fire powerto kill him... And ALL OF THEM DID FIRE ALL AT ONCE. And Dr. DOOM tanked all of their full power siphoning the energy that they are firing at him. At the middle of it, he must of used a spelled to make him self evaporate so that the Mad Celestials would move on.

Point is....

Dr. Doom was playing around with them the whole time.

The whole point of the arc, was about Dr. Doom main plot to trick the Console of Reeds, Nathanial, Franklin, Valeria, and the Mad Celestials, Thanos, AND Eternity AND Dr. Strange.

For 27 minutes the Four Celestials had their chance to kill Dr. Doom, but they failed and let the 28th minute pass. Dr. Doom toyed with them for 28 MINUTES, so that he can make Valeria happy!

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: you forgot to give a reason why Cytorak or Shuma re more powerful than Celestials, Show us one scan of either doing anything that would put them on level

I already gave the reasons above. It was through Dr. Doom.

Dr. Doom is a worshiper of Cyttorak. He can not use any prep even given an infinite time of prep to steal Cyttorak's power and use it for his own. The 1st time Dr. Doom tried to use the Bands of Cyttorak, he did not recite an invoke of the sources name, "CYTTORAK", and Cyttorak punished Dr. Doom by turning the bands against Doom. Before that, Dr Doom was trying to prep against the Juggernaut, but could not defeat the Juggernaut because of Juggernaut's Crimson Magiks.. These lead Dr. Doom to realize that magic can be a very reliable asset and thus he studied it.

Shuma-Gorath would be too much for Dr. Doom's tech and Magic. Doom would have to do exactly what Dr. Strange did in order to defeat it. And that would mean, that Dr Doom would have to collect ALL THE POWER that was EQUAL to the ones Dr. Strange collected prior to fighting Shuma-Gorath....

You know how powerful that was?

Doom would have to collect sooo much power that even his presence just standing in another reality is so powerful that its radiant causing devastation around the multivese just by standing in ONE PLACE.

That would mean that Dr. Doom would have to have the power to ruin a multiverse just to fight against Shuma-Gorath

Now tell me:

Have any of the FOUR MAD Celestials or NINE of the 4th HOST have so much power that it radiates enough energy to shake apart universe after universe after universe?

Nope.

#116 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: I'm sure that had Strange with Shuma's power let loose he could have been a universal threat, but the reaction of his power in the realm caused Kaluu to affirm that Strange would destroy galaxies by standing within Earth's dimension, not the universe or multiverse or what have you.

Well the universe is mostly comprised of just space... So it is understandable that Kaluu would use the term "galaxy", to compare his universal power.

given that... If Dr. Strange can stand at the center of Earth, the power that radiates off of him just standing there would destroy not just HIS galaxy..... BUT quoted by Kaluu; "GALAXIES" (Plural)

Stating that Strange can wipe out multiple galaxies through out the universe just by standing stationary in one point is very impressive...

So impressive, even the Celestials couldn't copy that kind of power.

#117 Posted by Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe (310 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: I'm sure that had Strange with Shuma's power let loose he could have been a universal threat, but the reaction of his power in the realm caused Kaluu to affirm that Strange would destroy galaxies by standing within Earth's dimension, not the universe or multiverse or what have you.

Well the universe is mostly comprised of just space... So it is understandable that Kaluu would use the term "galaxy", to compare his universal power.

given that... If Dr. Strange can stand at the center of Earth, the power that radiates off of him just standing there would destroy not just HIS galaxy..... BUT quoted by Kaluu; "GALAXIES" (Plural)

Stating that Strange can wipe out multiple galaxies through out the universe just by standing stationary in one point is very impressive...

So impressive, even the Celestials couldn't copy that kind of power.

That is pretty crazy when you stop and think about it from our perspective in the real world. The Milky Way galaxy alone is anywhere from 6,000 to 12,000 light years thick (although it's still being debated by scientists) and 100,000 light years across. I'd like to see what Strange would have done with that destructive power had he actually remained with it and let the magic consume him.

#118 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: I'm sure that had Strange with Shuma's power let loose he could have been a universal threat, but the reaction of his power in the realm caused Kaluu to affirm that Strange would destroy galaxies by standing within Earth's dimension, not the universe or multiverse or what have you.

Well the universe is mostly comprised of just space... So it is understandable that Kaluu would use the term "galaxy", to compare his universal power.

given that... If Dr. Strange can stand at the center of Earth, the power that radiates off of him just standing there would destroy not just HIS galaxy..... BUT quoted by Kaluu; "GALAXIES" (Plural)

Stating that Strange can wipe out multiple galaxies through out the universe just by standing stationary in one point is very impressive...

So impressive, even the Celestials couldn't copy that kind of power.

That is pretty crazy when you stop and think about it from our perspective in the real world. The Milky Way galaxy alone is anywhere from 6,000 to 12,000 light years thick (although it's still being debated by scientists) and 100,000 light years across. I'd like to see what Strange would have done with that destructive power had he actually remained with it and let the magic consume him.

Yes, yes!

12,000 Lightyears thick and 100,000lys across.

And adding Clusters and Super Clusters. And then the Slaon Wall up through the rest of the "observable" universe.

Granted by what Kaluu said:

If you take all the galaxies in the universe and compressed them all into one giant MASS OF MATTER.... Dr. Strange from the Shuma arc would be able to destroy that.

The problem with this Universe/Multiverse fallacy people use to debate in these forums is that, they forget the the universe is mostly just space. They also forget that the further away the galaxies from the point of the Big Bang... The MORE SPACE THERE IS.

#119 Posted by CosmosTyrant (489 posts) - - Show Bio

Din't Man-Thing summoned Cyttorak from another universe to give back Cain power's?

#120 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@CosmosTyrant said:

Din't Man-Thing summoned Cyttorak from another universe to give back Cain power's?

No, what Man-Thing did, was open a portal through the time when Colossus lost his power, so that Cain can rebound it just before Magik was to exorcise Colossus. Cyttorak watches the multiverse as it were a flat piece of paper and he powers up ALL Juggernauts in every one of them and through every timeline when a user finds the Gem.

Basically, as the power was going to go back to Cyttorak so that he can create another Gem to be found, Cain rebounded the power and became the Juggernaut.

#121 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Killemall: "virtually" means that humans see them as Omnipotent, not that they actually are. to most early civilizations, Skyfathers seemed and were identified as omnipotent, when they do in fact have limits to their powers. omnipotent is an infinitive, it describes the most powerful, someone cannot be most powerful if there are beings more powerful, Only one being can have all power, and that one being's only weapon, according to Uatu, is love. and that was written be Stan Lee, so don't you throw around words like non-canon.

I dont actually get what you mean, if you are trying to say omnipotent in real world thats a differen thing. Marvel, however follows Greg Cantor theory of level of infinity and by extension level of omnipotence as you saw you scans talking about the same thing, and without having level of infinity, or a concept of beyond infinity Marvel cosmology cant exist.

Then Utau did say that in a what if, but lets ignore that because its still a parellel universe in marvel multiverse. You say one person is omnipotent and his power is only Love? doesnt that contradict it, in itself? How can an omnipotent being have a limit on his power and it be limited to only love. Besides we know the greatest level on omnipotence in Marvel is TOAA, the writers, are you suggesting the only power writers have in comics is love?

That was not in a What If, that scan come from Fantastic Four #13, i linked to What If as evidence that Uatu observes the multiverse.

Now, your going to say that there are multiple infinities, but love as the most powerful thing in Marvel doesn't make any sense?

seriously though, this implies that TOAA is a benevolent figure, and loves all and fights with love (because he's American Christian type-God)

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: you forgot to give a reason why Cytorak or Shuma re more powerful than Celestials, Show us one scan of either doing anything that would put them on level

I already gave the reasons above. It was through Dr. Doom.

Dr. Doom is a worshiper of Cyttorak. He can not use any prep even given an infinite time of prep to steal Cyttorak's power and use it for his own. The 1st time Dr. Doom tried to use the Bands of Cyttorak, he did not recite an invoke of the sources name, "CYTTORAK", and Cyttorak punished Dr. Doom by turning the bands against Doom. Before that, Dr Doom was trying to prep against the Juggernaut, but could not defeat the Juggernaut because of Juggernaut's Crimson Magiks.. These lead Dr. Doom to realize that magic can be a very reliable asset and thus he studied it.

Shuma-Gorath would be too much for Dr. Doom's tech and Magic. Doom would have to do exactly what Dr. Strange did in order to defeat it. And that would mean, that Dr Doom would have to collect ALL THE POWER that was EQUAL to the ones Dr. Strange collected prior to fighting Shuma-Gorath....

You know how powerful that was?

Doom would have to collect sooo much power that even his presence just standing in another reality is so powerful that its radiant causing devastation around the multivese just by standing in ONE PLACE.

That would mean that Dr. Doom would have to have the power to ruin a multiverse just to fight against Shuma-Gorath

Now tell me:

Have any of the FOUR MAD Celestials or NINE of the 4th HOST have so much power that it radiates enough energy to shake apart universe after universe after universe?

Nope.

You made that up, show us some evidence of that

During his battle With Shuma Gorath, SS Dr Strange says he wants to "follow the path of SHiva" as in, aspire to become SHiva, as in, he was not yet as powerful as Shiva

By the way, thats Shuma getting wrecked in his home dimension He's NOT omnipotent(sorry, he's not very omnipotent, just barely omnipotent and less omnipotent than many others apparently)

Not Oblivion and Eternity as preserver and destroyer, Shiva and Visnu, Two of The Trimurti.

so, Trimurti>SS Dr Strange> Shuma Gorath

now, if only we could compare one of the Trimurti to the fourth host....oh wait

BEE-BOP-DIDDLY-OP-BEE-BOP-POW

#122 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

You made that up, show us some evidence of that

During his battle With Shuma Gorath, SS Dr Strange says he wants to "follow the path of SHiva" as in, aspire to become SHiva, as in, he was not yet as powerful as Shiva

By the way, thats Shuma getting wrecked in his home dimension He's NOT omnipotent(sorry, he's not very omnipotent, just barely omnipotent and less omnipotent than many others apparently)

Not Oblivion and Eternity as preserver and destroyer, Shiva and Visnu, Two of The Trimurti.

so, Trimurti>SS Dr Strange> Shuma Gorath

now, if only we could compare one of the Trimurti to the fourth host....oh wait

BEE-BOP-DIDDLY-OP-BEE-BOP-POW

"following another's path" does not mean they are of equal in power. It seems that you are picking up these scans and trying to decipher its context, when clearly you haven't read the issue.

You are implying that Dr. Strange is using the power of that is near equivalent to Shiva.

That is far from the case!

Sometime readers just don't get how metaphoric Dr. Strange's language is and know how to decipher it.

Question 1: Do you know how Shuma-Gorath lost?

This will be a test to know if you really have read the arc or if you are just dependent on one scan.

Question 2: Did Shuma-Gorath die?

This is another test to see if your eyes where tricked by depending on one scan.

Boom-Shakulakalaka!!! Boom! xD

#123 Edited by Setherial (210 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

During his battle With Shuma Gorath, SS Dr Strange says he wants to "follow the path of SHiva" as in, aspire to become SHiva, as in, he was not yet as powerful as Shiva

That's a complete misinterpretation. The entire story arc revolved around Strange turning from the path of light to the path of darkness. He had forced himself to kill many innocents along the way, breaking his vow to never take innocent life when he became the Ancient One's disciple. The further along in his journey the more corrupt he became, and he fought an internal struggle every single time he was tested to go down the dark path further - this even cost him his eye in the battle with Ghaszaszh Nyirh. When it came time to fight Shuma-Gorath and the Earth simulacrum was in Strange's hands, he had to face a tough decision. He was fighting to protect the Earth and innocent people on it, but using Earth's image as a weapon would have the consequence of killing innocents around the globe. That is why Shuma-Gorath told him he could not be both the preserver and the destroyer. He could not hope to defeat Shuma-Gorath unless he committed himself fully to destroying innocent lives that he pledged to protect. Following the path of Shiva meant he dedicated himself 100% to the destruction of Shuma-Gorath, despite the loss of innocent life that would result. Their talk had nothing to do with the mystic power of the two Indian Devas.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

By the way, thats Shuma getting wrecked in his home dimension He's NOT omnipotent(sorry, he's not very omnipotent, just barely omnipotent and less omnipotent than many others apparently)

Not Oblivion and Eternity as preserver and destroyer, Shiva and Visnu, Two of The Trimurti.

so, Trimurti>SS Dr Strange> Shuma Gorath

now, if only we could compare one of the Trimurti to the fourth host....oh wait

Shuma-Gorath was destroyed by his own mystic energy only when another infinite/virtually omnipotent being (Strange) threw it at him after Strange had Shuma's own virtually omnipotent energy coursing through him.. That only speaks to Strange's level of omnipotence at the time and doesn't downgrade Shuma-Gorath. Especially seeing as how it was its own energy used against it and not the energy from some other entity.

And LOL at the Trimurti > Strange as Sorcerer Supreme > Shuma-Gorath argument.

#124 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: Your putting me in a bit of a perplexin situation sein as no matter what answer i give for either question, your prolly just gonna make something up to justify you being right.

that being said

1) hSuma Lost by Doctor Strange becoming the Sorcerer Supreme by absorborbing Dark Magic from Arioch

2) Shuma didn't so much die as...get wrecked

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

During his battle With Shuma Gorath, SS Dr Strange says he wants to "follow the path of SHiva" as in, aspire to become SHiva, as in, he was not yet as powerful as Shiva

That's a complete misinterpretation. The entire story arc revolved around Strange turning from the path of light to the path of darkness. He had forced himself to kill many innocents along the way, breaking his vow to never take innocent life when he became the Ancient One's disciple. The further along in his journey the more corrupt he became, and he fought an internal struggle every single time he was tested to go down the dark path further - this even cost him his eye in the battle with Ghaszaszh Nyirh. When it came time to fight Shuma-Gorath and the Earth simulacrum was in Strange's hands, he had to face a tough decision. He was fighting to protect the Earth and innocent people on it, but using Earth's image as a weapon would have the consequence of killing innocents around the globe. That is why Shuma-Gorath told him he could not be both the preserver and the destroyer. He could not hope to defeat Shuma-Gorath unless he committed himself fully to destroying innocent lives that he pledged to protect. Following the path of Shiva meant he dedicated himself 100% to the destruction of Shuma-Gorath, despite the loss of innocent life that would result. Their talk had nothing to do with the mystic power of the two Indian Devas.

except that they were talking about 2 Indian Devas. on panel. If they weren't aspiring to become Devas, they waouldn't of been saying that they aspired to become Devas. regardless, you have given no evidence putting Shuma above the Celestials

@Setherial: @Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath was destroyed by his own mystic energy only when another infinite/virtually omnipotent being (Strange) threw it at him after Strange had Shuma's own virtually omnipotent energy coursing through him.. That only speaks to Strange's level of omnipotence at the time and doesn't downgrade Shuma-Gorath. Especially seeing as how it was its own energy used against it and not the energy from some other entity.

And no, that wast Shuma's energy he was throwing at him, that was Arioch's.

Also, Shuma does not have infinite power, only TOAA has infinite power, we,'ve gone over this,

@Setherial said:

And LOL at the Trimurti > Strange as Sorcerer Supreme > Shuma-Gorath argument.

LOL at the "Shuma Gorath is a being with infinite multiversal power despite never showing infinite power, nor having any evidence of him being a multiversal creature" argument

seriously, guy has no feats at all

here are some normal character respect threads

http://www.comicvine.com/thor/29-2268/respect-thor/92-658257/

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/conan/578/conan-the-barbarian-respect-thread/682827/

http://www.comicvine.com/deadshot/29-5763/new-52-deadshot-respect-thread/92-695867/

http://www.comicvine.com/tim-drake/29-9290/new-52-red-robin-respect-thread/92-692596/

http://www.comicvine.com/jason-todd/29-6849/new-52-red-hood-respect-thread/92-683252/

http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/god_spawn/dantevergil-respect-thread/87-87292/

http://www.comicvine.com/alan-scott/29-12663/alan-scott-respect-thread/92-746846/

http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/strider92/backlash-respect-thread/87-86139/

http://www.comicvine.com/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles/65-26934/casey-jones-respect-thread/92-752456/

sources, scans, videos. these have actual events that quantify the characters' powers and abilities.

Here's Shuma's respect thread

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/off-topic/5/shuma-gorath-worshiprespect-thread/752089/?

This had a stock photo and a satirical Photoshop comic, nothing to actually support this power. Shuma's omnipotence is a pipe-dream, if he's a multiversal destroyer with unlimited dark powers, where are all the scans? do the pages just turn invisible when you scan them? you'd think there would if he did thjis kinda stuff people would...talk about it

Heres just 2 for Celestials

Feats For SHuma to match that?

#125 Posted by PunishCapitalism (65 posts) - - Show Bio

Shuma-Squidworth & Sittwhoreacts should be completely banned from using in the battle forums.

#126 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

Now, your going to say that there are multiple infinities, but love as the most powerful thing in Marvel doesn't make any sense?

seriously though, this implies that TOAA is a benevolent figure, and loves all and fights with love (because he's American Christian type-God)

Multiple infinity is actually a well accepted mathematical theory, marvel is built on that, you are saying as if it doesnt make sense. It actually does, how else can you have infinite number of universes, and still have things bigger than it?

It doesnt say TOAA is a benevolent figure, it says is only power is that of love, much like Utau once said Phoenix was the big bang, when on panel we have seen big bang occur and Phoenix then come to life.

I am not supporting Shuma Gorath, nor do i buy anything 7am says despite how much he pretends to know his things, but Marvel has accepted Greg Cantor's level of infinity, its been referred to more than once as you have been shown.

Also reasonable speaking cosmic cube beings like Kubik for one, Kosmos was pretty new on the game, should have better awareness than Watcher, after all cosmic cube beings are, once they reach their potential, a lot more powerful.

#127 Edited by Setherial (210 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

During his battle With Shuma Gorath, SS Dr Strange says he wants to "follow the path of SHiva" as in, aspire to become SHiva, as in, he was not yet as powerful as Shiva

That's a complete misinterpretation. The entire story arc revolved around Strange turning from the path of light to the path of darkness. He had forced himself to kill many innocents along the way, breaking his vow to never take innocent life when he became the Ancient One's disciple. The further along in his journey the more corrupt he became, and he fought an internal struggle every single time he was tested to go down the dark path further - this even cost him his eye in the battle with Ghaszaszh Nyirh. When it came time to fight Shuma-Gorath and the Earth simulacrum was in Strange's hands, he had to face a tough decision. He was fighting to protect the Earth and innocent people on it, but using Earth's image as a weapon would have the consequence of killing innocents around the globe. That is why Shuma-Gorath told him he could not be both the preserver and the destroyer. He could not hope to defeat Shuma-Gorath unless he committed himself fully to destroying innocent lives that he pledged to protect. Following the path of Shiva meant he dedicated himself 100% to the destruction of Shuma-Gorath, despite the loss of innocent life that would result. Their talk had nothing to do with the mystic power of the two Indian Devas.

except that they were talking about 2 Indian Devas. on panel. If they weren't aspiring to become Devas, they waouldn't of been saying that they aspired to become Devas. regardless, you have given no evidence putting Shuma above the Celestials

Hahaha...this guy.

Shuma-Gorath was telling Strange he could not walk the path of preserver and destroyer at once. It was an issue of moral philosophy, not literally holding the power of either god named. Why do you think Shuma-Gorath quoted Friedrich Nietzsche earlier during the battle? That you would actually argue Strange and Shuma were weaker than the likes of Shiva, a deity that lost a fight against Thor, shows you've never even read the arc and are basing a whole argument off a few scans you found online.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath was destroyed by his own mystic energy only when another infinite/virtually omnipotent being (Strange) threw it at him after Strange had Shuma's own virtually omnipotent energy coursing through him.. That only speaks to Strange's level of omnipotence at the time and doesn't downgrade Shuma-Gorath. Especially seeing as how it was its own energy used against it and not the energy from some other entity.

And no, that wast Shuma's energy he was throwing at him, that was Arioch's.

Also, Shuma does not have infinite power, only TOAA has infinite power, we,'ve gone over this,

I suppose Arioch is the one that conjured the Earth simulacrum, then? No. Shuma-Gorath created the mystic image of Earth and that is what was used against him. In fact, when Strange tried canceling out Shuma's spell it only caused dire effects especially felt by Earth's mystics.

And there are levels of Infinity in terms of power. This has been pointed out to you with scans in this very thread. Ignoring it won't make it go away.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

And LOL at the Trimurti > Strange as Sorcerer Supreme > Shuma-Gorath argument.

LOL at the "Shuma Gorath is a being with infinite multiversal power despite never showing infinite power, nor having any evidence of him being a multiversal creature" argument

And yet Shuma-Gorath has a servant with infinite power and after Strange absorbed his energy it was stated more than once that Strange had infinite power within him.

I also never said Shuma-Gorath was a multiversal power.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

seriously, guy has no feats at all

here are some normal character respect threads

http://www.comicvine.com/thor/29-2268/respect-thor/92-658257/

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/conan/578/conan-the-barbarian-respect-thread/682827/

http://www.comicvine.com/deadshot/29-5763/new-52-deadshot-respect-thread/92-695867/

http://www.comicvine.com/tim-drake/29-9290/new-52-red-robin-respect-thread/92-692596/

http://www.comicvine.com/jason-todd/29-6849/new-52-red-hood-respect-thread/92-683252/

http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/god_spawn/dantevergil-respect-thread/87-87292/

http://www.comicvine.com/alan-scott/29-12663/alan-scott-respect-thread/92-746846/

http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/strider92/backlash-respect-thread/87-86139/

http://www.comicvine.com/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles/65-26934/casey-jones-respect-thread/92-752456/

sources, scans, videos. these have actual events that quantify the characters' powers and abilities.

Here's Shuma's respect thread

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/off-topic/5/shuma-gorath-worshiprespect-thread/752089/?

This had a stock photo and a satirical Photoshop comic, nothing to actually support this power. Shuma's omnipotence is a pipe-dream, if he's a multiversal destroyer with unlimited dark powers, where are all the scans? do the pages just turn invisible when you scan them? you'd think there would if he did thjis kinda stuff people would...talk about it

That's cute. You still haven't provided a decent argument by posting links to threads of completely unrelated characters. That you would use a joke thread made by a Shuma-Gorath roleplayer (or perhaps the real Shuma-Gorath hacking our internet 0_0) to support your stance is also pretty funny. There are Shuma-Gorath respect threads online. I know you could find a real one in two seconds if you'd just use google. It's not hard.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

Heres just 2 for Celestials

Shuma has shown that he can wreck planets just by sitting his tentacled ass in his dimension, so that first scan doesn't make a case for Celestials being superior. And if you're seriously trying to say that showing durability against the Destroyer armor is some absurdly high-end feat....come on.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

Feats For SHuma to match that?

Shuma-Gorath has fought the full-fledged Vishanti in the past, beings that together would have caused universal destruction in their battle with Slorioth.

The Inhuman/Kree tech in Thanos Imperative registered entities following through the Fault that were "larger, more powerful..." than the Galactus Engine that was manhandling four Celestials (one of them Arishem the Judge) and Galactus. Shuma-Gorath, being one of the 4 Great Old Ones summoned to remove Death from the Cancerverse in Thanos Imperative #6, is included by default as one of these more powerful entities.

So as of Thanos Imperative: Shuma-Gorath/Nyerlathortech/Yot-Soter-Kthl > Galactus Engine > 616 Celestials

I expect an apology over eggs and french toast in the morning.

#128 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: Your putting me in a bit of a perplexin situation sein as no matter what answer i give for either question, your prolly just gonna make something up to justify you being right.

that being said

1) hSuma Lost by Doctor Strange becoming the Sorcerer Supreme by absorborbing Dark Magic from Arioch

2) Shuma didn't so much die as...get wrecked

  1. Wrong!
  2. Wrong!

Now I know you haven't read anything.

You don't know the context.

Even @Setherial: could try to explain it to you, but you would take him as "making it up" too. Even Killemall has that problem as well. Both of you depend on a collection of out of context scans, but neither of you have read anything of the story at all. Is this how you guys debate with users such as @czarny_samael666: @the human Juggernaut: @Jedisupermaster: @lord_oraculous016: @a88378438: @karrob: @tron_bonne @TheUltimateSurvivor:@TheFallenOne : @higher_evolutionary: @Lance Bastro: @Shuma-Gorath: @kenshiroo: @TheJuggernautpunch: @lordraiden: @Prince CortSether: @TabithaCucumber: @Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe: @Bo88gdan:@Setherial:????

You just call them liars?

What kind of tactic is that?

Low-Balling?

#129 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

Now, your going to say that there are multiple infinities, but love as the most powerful thing in Marvel doesn't make any sense?

seriously though, this implies that TOAA is a benevolent figure, and loves all and fights with love (because he's American Christian type-God)

Multiple infinity is actually a well accepted mathematical theory, marvel is built on that, you are saying as if it doesnt make sense. It actually does, how else can you have infinite number of universes, and still have things bigger than it?

No it isn't, i already linked to a research paper saying otherwise

@Killemall said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

It doesnt say TOAA is a benevolent figure, it says is only power is that of love, much like Utau once said Phoenix was the big bang, when on panel we have seen big bang occur and Phoenix then come to life.

I am not supporting Shuma Gorath, nor do i buy anything 7am says despite how much he pretends to know his things, but Marvel has accepted Greg Cantor's level of infinity, its been referred to more than once as you have been shown.

Also reasonable speaking cosmic cube beings like Kubik for one, Kosmos was pretty new on the game, should have better awareness than Watcher, after all cosmic cube beings are, once they reach their potential, a lot more powerful.

true, but their not as set on observing and understanding the Universe, like how Reede Richards is smarter than Captain Marvel

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

During his battle With Shuma Gorath, SS Dr Strange says he wants to "follow the path of SHiva" as in, aspire to become SHiva, as in, he was not yet as powerful as Shiva

That's a complete misinterpretation. The entire story arc revolved around Strange turning from the path of light to the path of darkness. He had forced himself to kill many innocents along the way, breaking his vow to never take innocent life when he became the Ancient One's disciple. The further along in his journey the more corrupt he became, and he fought an internal struggle every single time he was tested to go down the dark path further - this even cost him his eye in the battle with Ghaszaszh Nyirh. When it came time to fight Shuma-Gorath and the Earth simulacrum was in Strange's hands, he had to face a tough decision. He was fighting to protect the Earth and innocent people on it, but using Earth's image as a weapon would have the consequence of killing innocents around the globe. That is why Shuma-Gorath told him he could not be both the preserver and the destroyer. He could not hope to defeat Shuma-Gorath unless he committed himself fully to destroying innocent lives that he pledged to protect. Following the path of Shiva meant he dedicated himself 100% to the destruction of Shuma-Gorath, despite the loss of innocent life that would result. Their talk had nothing to do with the mystic power of the two Indian Devas.

except that they were talking about 2 Indian Devas. on panel. If they weren't aspiring to become Devas, they waouldn't of been saying that they aspired to become Devas. regardless, you have given no evidence putting Shuma above the Celestials

Hahaha...this guy.

Shuma-Gorath was telling Strange he could not walk the path of preserver and destroyer at once. It was an issue of moral philosophy, not literally holding the power of either god named. Why do you think Shuma-Gorath quoted Friedrich Nietzsche earlier during the battle? That you would actually argue Strange and Shuma were weaker than the likes of Shiva, a deity that lost a fight against Thor, shows you've never even read the arc and are basing a whole argument off a few scans you found online.

Yes, and they compared him to Shiva and Visnu, if they were above those two in power, they wouldn't compare. Shuma never compared himself to Nietzche, just quoted him. Strange, on the other hand, blatantly referred to Shiva and Visnu

you still haven't really refuted any of that

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath was destroyed by his own mystic energy only when another infinite/virtually omnipotent being (Strange) threw it at him after Strange had Shuma's own virtually omnipotent energy coursing through him.. That only speaks to Strange's level of omnipotence at the time and doesn't downgrade Shuma-Gorath. Especially seeing as how it was its own energy used against it and not the energy from some other entity.

And no, that wast Shuma's energy he was throwing at him, that was Arioch's.

Also, Shuma does not have infinite power, only TOAA has infinite power, we,'ve gone over this,

I suppose Arioch is the one that conjured the Earth simulacrum, then? No. Shuma-Gorath created the mystic image of Earth and that is what was used against him. In fact, when Strange tried canceling out Shuma's spell it only caused dire effects especially felt by Earth's mystics.

And there are levels of Infinity in terms of power. This has been pointed out to you with scans in this very thread. Ignoring it won't make it go away.

Going by the actual definition of "infinity" these people aren't Infinite in power, yes they are infinite by the Marvel definition, but that definition shows there being people above "infinite" , so saying their infinite means nothing.

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

And LOL at the Trimurti > Strange as Sorcerer Supreme > Shuma-Gorath argument.

LOL at the "Shuma Gorath is a being with infinite multiversal power despite never showing infinite power, nor having any evidence of him being a multiversal creature" argument

And yet Shuma-Gorath has a servant with infinite power and after Strange absorbed his energy it was stated more than once that Strange had infinite power within him.

Yes, but Arioch has Marvel Infinite power, which means essentially nothing

@Setherial said:

I also never said Shuma-Gorath was a multiversal power.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

seriously, guy has no feats at all

here are some normal character respect threads

http://www.comicvine.com/thor/29-2268/respect-thor/92-658257/

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/conan/578/conan-the-barbarian-respect-thread/682827/

http://www.comicvine.com/deadshot/29-5763/new-52-deadshot-respect-thread/92-695867/

http://www.comicvine.com/tim-drake/29-9290/new-52-red-robin-respect-thread/92-692596/

http://www.comicvine.com/jason-todd/29-6849/new-52-red-hood-respect-thread/92-683252/

http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/god_spawn/dantevergil-respect-thread/87-87292/

http://www.comicvine.com/alan-scott/29-12663/alan-scott-respect-thread/92-746846/

http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/strider92/backlash-respect-thread/87-86139/

http://www.comicvine.com/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles/65-26934/casey-jones-respect-thread/92-752456/

sources, scans, videos. these have actual events that quantify the characters' powers and abilities.

Here's Shuma's respect thread

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/off-topic/5/shuma-gorath-worshiprespect-thread/752089/?

This had a stock photo and a satirical Photoshop comic, nothing to actually support this power. Shuma's omnipotence is a pipe-dream, if he's a multiversal destroyer with unlimited dark powers, where are all the scans? do the pages just turn invisible when you scan them? you'd think there would if he did thjis kinda stuff people would...talk about it

That's cute. You still haven't provided a decent argument by posting links to threads of completely unrelated characters. That you would use a joke thread made by a Shuma-Gorath roleplayer (or perhaps the real Shuma-Gorath hacking our internet 0_0) to support your stance is also pretty funny. There are Shuma-Gorath respect threads online. I know you could find a real one in two seconds if you'd just use google. It's not hard.

i was posting links to illustrate that other chracters have feats. thats kind of what i was doing, and what i said i was doing. and no, you can't just find Shuma Gorath respect threads out there( other than ones for MVC, who loses to people like Cammy on a regular basis). if there are good SG respect threads, link to a good SG respect thread.

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

Heres just 2 for Celestials

Shuma has shown that he can wreck planets just by sitting his tentacled ass in his dimension, so that first scan doesn't make a case for Celestials being superior. And if you're seriously trying to say that showing durability against the Destroyer armor is some absurdly high-end feat....come on.

"as blows that would pulvarize a planet glance of him instantly" this guy is resisting casual planet busting with no apparent effects on his armor/puppet.

If Shuma has wrecked planets, lets see him wreck a planet. post a scan or a link, or at least cite an issue in which that happens.

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

Feats For SHuma to match that?

Shuma-Gorath has fought the full-fledged Vishanti in the past, beings that together would have caused universal destruction in their battle with Slorioth.

The Inhuman/Kree tech in Thanos Imperative registered entities following through the Fault that were "larger, more powerful..." than the Galactus Engine that was manhandling four Celestials (one of them Arishem the Judge) and Galactus. Shuma-Gorath, being one of the 4 Great Old Ones summoned to remove Death from the Cancerverse in Thanos Imperative #6, is included by default as one of these more powerful entities.

So as of Thanos Imperative: Shuma-Gorath/Nyerlathortech/Yot-Soter-Kthl > Galactus Engine > 616 Celestials

@Setherial said:

I also never said Shuma-Gorath was a multiversal power.

yeah, The Shuma in Thanos Imperative was an alternate universe version of Shuma, this thread is about The Shuma from Earth 616

yeah, either post some scans or stop pulling rediculous feats and statements pput of ynowhere

beeteedubs, i like my eggs with Swiss cheese and Avocado.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning:

okayt this is pretty much what your saying

"everything iu say is right, i don't ned to quantify anything, everything you say is wrong, i can post feats that are entirely uinquantified and it's true, because its true, we don't ned any evidence of anything I'm saying being true, because it is. also, don't check anything i say, because I'm already right about all of this"

QUANTIFY ANYTHING!!!

#130 Posted by Setherial (210 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

During his battle With Shuma Gorath, SS Dr Strange says he wants to "follow the path of SHiva" as in, aspire to become SHiva, as in, he was not yet as powerful as Shiva

That's a complete misinterpretation. The entire story arc revolved around Strange turning from the path of light to the path of darkness. He had forced himself to kill many innocents along the way, breaking his vow to never take innocent life when he became the Ancient One's disciple. The further along in his journey the more corrupt he became, and he fought an internal struggle every single time he was tested to go down the dark path further - this even cost him his eye in the battle with Ghaszaszh Nyirh. When it came time to fight Shuma-Gorath and the Earth simulacrum was in Strange's hands, he had to face a tough decision. He was fighting to protect the Earth and innocent people on it, but using Earth's image as a weapon would have the consequence of killing innocents around the globe. That is why Shuma-Gorath told him he could not be both the preserver and the destroyer. He could not hope to defeat Shuma-Gorath unless he committed himself fully to destroying innocent lives that he pledged to protect. Following the path of Shiva meant he dedicated himself 100% to the destruction of Shuma-Gorath, despite the loss of innocent life that would result. Their talk had nothing to do with the mystic power of the two Indian Devas.

except that they were talking about 2 Indian Devas. on panel. If they weren't aspiring to become Devas, they waouldn't of been saying that they aspired to become Devas. regardless, you have given no evidence putting Shuma above the Celestials

Hahaha...this guy.

Shuma-Gorath was telling Strange he could not walk the path of preserver and destroyer at once. It was an issue of moral philosophy, not literally holding the power of either god named. Why do you think Shuma-Gorath quoted Friedrich Nietzsche earlier during the battle? That you would actually argue Strange and Shuma were weaker than the likes of Shiva, a deity that lost a fight against Thor, shows you've never even read the arc and are basing a whole argument off a few scans you found online.

Yes, and they compared him to Shiva and Visnu, if they were above those two in power, they wouldn't compare. Shuma never compared himself to Nietzche, just quoted him. Strange, on the other hand, blatantly referred to Shiva and Visnu

you still haven't really refuted any of that

Shuma-Gorath was telling Strange he could not hope to be a preserver of life and a destroyer of life at the same time. The comparison was in regards to Strange's actions, not his power level with Vishnu and Shiva. I already did refute this point earlier. The only one who would really think Shuma and Strange (at that point) would be lower in power than a deity that lost a fight to the Asgardian, Thor, is you.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath was destroyed by his own mystic energy only when another infinite/virtually omnipotent being (Strange) threw it at him after Strange had Shuma's own virtually omnipotent energy coursing through him.. That only speaks to Strange's level of omnipotence at the time and doesn't downgrade Shuma-Gorath. Especially seeing as how it was its own energy used against it and not the energy from some other entity.

And no, that wast Shuma's energy he was throwing at him, that was Arioch's.

Also, Shuma does not have infinite power, only TOAA has infinite power, we,'ve gone over this,

I suppose Arioch is the one that conjured the Earth simulacrum, then? No. Shuma-Gorath created the mystic image of Earth and that is what was used against him. In fact, when Strange tried canceling out Shuma's spell it only caused dire effects especially felt by Earth's mystics.

And there are levels of Infinity in terms of power. This has been pointed out to you with scans in this very thread. Ignoring it won't make it go away.

Going by the actual definition of "infinity" these people aren't Infinite in power, yes they are infinite by the Marvel definition, but that definition shows there being people above "infinite" , so saying their infinite means nothing.

When arguing about comic characters/feats/etc, Marvel Comic proof >>>>>>>>>>> "real world" logic.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:


Yes, but Arioch has Marvel Infinite power, which means essentially nothing

Using Marvel logic when arguing about the company's own characters makes far more sense than using real world logic to explain the powers of fictional characters.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:


i was posting links to illustrate that other chracters have feats. thats kind of what i was doing, and what i said i was doing. and no, you can't just find Shuma Gorath respect threads out there( other than ones for MVC, who loses to people like Cammy on a regular basis). if there are good SG respect threads, link to a good SG respect thread.

That's up to you to find your information. Type 'respect shuma-gorath' in google and you'll find one within the first three links, guaranteed. That being said, I own physical copies of all the story arcs Shuma-Gorath has appeared in. And what does Cammy have to do with anything?

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

Heres just 2 for Celestials

Shuma has shown that he can wreck planets just by sitting his tentacled ass in his dimension, so that first scan doesn't make a case for Celestials being superior. And if you're seriously trying to say that showing durability against the Destroyer armor is some absurdly high-end feat....come on.

"as blows that would pulvarize a planet glance of him instantly" this guy is resisting casual planet busting with no apparent effects on his armor/puppet.

If Shuma has wrecked planets, lets see him wreck a planet. post a scan or a link, or at least cite an issue in which that happens.

Shuma-Gorath made an image of Earth from his realm that affected what happened to the real thing. He's already demonstrated that he can destroy planets. He's taken over hundreds of dimensions on his own and you want to argue that he can't bust a planet...

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

Feats For SHuma to match that?

Shuma-Gorath has fought the full-fledged Vishanti in the past, beings that together would have caused universal destruction in their battle with Slorioth.

The Inhuman/Kree tech in Thanos Imperative registered entities following through the Fault that were "larger, more powerful..." than the Galactus Engine that was manhandling four Celestials (one of them Arishem the Judge) and Galactus. Shuma-Gorath, being one of the 4 Great Old Ones summoned to remove Death from the Cancerverse in Thanos Imperative #6, is included by default as one of these more powerful entities.

So as of Thanos Imperative: Shuma-Gorath/Nyerlathortech/Yot-Soter-Kthl > Galactus Engine > 616 Celestials

@Setherial said:

I also never said Shuma-Gorath was a multiversal power.

yeah, The Shuma in Thanos Imperative was an alternate universe version of Shuma, this thread is about The Shuma from Earth 616

yeah, either post some scans or stop pulling rediculous feats and statements pput of ynowhere

You have scans indicating that Shuma-Gorath in Thanos Imperative was merely an alternate universe version? Shuma-Gorath can change its form to whatever it likes, so using Shuma's appearance in TI isn't a valid argument. Shuma invades other universes and takes them over, so him appearing in alternate realities isn't out of character. Others who have alternate universe counterparts have acknowledged they have alternate counterparts, yet Shuma-Gorath has said himself that there are none like him. Based on the established history of the character, there's more pointing in favor of Shuma-Gorath in Thanos Imperative being the very same one seen in previous arcs than there is to say it was just an alternate reality counterpart - the storyline even involved the MAO's invading 616, which Shuma-Gorath has shown to desire already. Aside from that, even if it were the case that Shuma in Thanos Imperative was merely an alternate reality counterpart, the 616 versions of characters with alternate counterparts have generally been shown to be the most powerful.

#131 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath was telling Strange he could not hope to be a preserver of life and a destroyer of life at the same time. The comparison was in regards to Strange's actions, not his power level with Vishnu and Shiva. I already did refute this point earlier. The only one who would really think Shuma and Strange (at that point) would be lower in power than a deity that lost a fight to the Asgardian, Thor, is you.

Yes, i understand that, but they are still alluding to Shiva and Vishnu if they really meant cosmic level stuff here, they would have ben comparing themselves to folks like Oblivion and Eternity

@Setherial said:

When arguing about comic characters/feats/etc, Marvel Comic proof >>>>>>>>>>> "real world" logic.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:


Yes, but Arioch has Marvel Infinite power, which means essentially nothing

Using Marvel logic when arguing about the company's own characters makes far more sense than using real world logic to explain the powers of fictional characters.

Okay, lets try toto explain why "Shuma Gorath has infinite power" is a flawed argument

first of all, no one ever says he has infinite power

Second, in Marvel, anyone with "infinite" power can still be overpowered by people with "more infinite " power, so saying that he does is a mute point, as people like Arishem are described sometimes as being omnipotent

Also, Shuma does not have infinite power, only TOAA has infinite power, we've gone over this,

@Setherial said:

That's up to you to find your information. Type 'respect shuma-gorath' in google and you'll find one within the first three links, guaranteed. That being said, I own physical copies of all the story arcs Shuma-Gorath has appeared in. And what does Cammy have to do with anything?

I have found information in comics and on Marvunapp, nothing that really cries "above Celestial level" there

I did, and i found nothing useful relating to feats for the character, please, by all means, show me a link to an actual Reaspect SHuma thread, with actual feats

Cammy has to do with this because most "resopect Shuma" threads are about the character from Marvel vs Capcom, not the Earth 616 variation

@Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath made an image of Earth from his realm that affected what happened to the real thing. He's already demonstrated that he can destroy planets. He's taken over hundreds of dimensions on his own and you want to argue that he can't bust a planet...

The nature of the model makes it not really count as legitimate planet busting( its a mystic device requiring prep that doesn't really use physical power), and in Marvel a dimension can mean anything from the entire observable universe to a 9x9x9 room where people can convieniantly hold there stuff. Tell me an issue or show me a scan where SHuma actually busts a planet

@Setherial said:

You have scans indicating that Shuma-Gorath in Thanos Imperative was merely an alternate universe version? Shuma-Gorath can change its form to whatever it likes, so using Shuma's appearance in TI isn't a valid argument. Shuma invades other universes and takes them over, so him appearing in alternate realities isn't out of character. Others who have alternate universe counterparts have acknowledged they have alternate counterparts, yet Shuma-Gorath has said himself that there are none like him. Based on the established history of the character, there's more pointing in favor of Shuma-Gorath in Thanos Imperative being the very same one seen in previous arcs than there is to say it was just an alternate reality counterpart - the storyline even involved the MAO's invading 616, which Shuma-Gorath has shown to desire already. Aside from that, even if it were the case that Shuma in Thanos Imperative was merely an alternate reality counterpart, the 616 versions of characters with alternate counterparts have generally been shown to be the most powerful.

Okay, so in the Cancerverse we see: Galactus, hulk, Captain Marvel, Captain America, Spider-man, and many others. now, these people are all alternate universe versions of their mainstream counterparts, so it would only serve logic to presume that Shuma of Cancerverse was also an alternate Universe version.

That being said, i dom't think SHuma has ever conquered an entire universe, People like Doom and Dormammu say there are no others like them, even though both have alternate dimensional counterparts, btw, Shuma has one too http://marvel.wikia.com/Shuma-Gorath_(Earth-96169)

#132 Edited by OneDoesNotSimplyWalkIntoMordor (117 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath was telling Strange he could not hope to be a preserver of life and a destroyer of life at the same time. The comparison was in regards to Strange's actions, not his power level with Vishnu and Shiva. I already did refute this point earlier. The only one who would really think Shuma and Strange (at that point) would be lower in power than a deity that lost a fight to the Asgardian, Thor, is you.

Yes, i understand that, but they are still alluding to Shiva and Vishnu if they really meant cosmic level stuff here, they would have ben comparing themselves to folks like Oblivion and Eternity

Why? One does not simply compare themselves to Oblivion or Eternity because Oblivion and Eternity have no objective for motivation. Shiva and Vishu or Odin and Thor are objects of motivation.

#133 Posted by OneDoesNotSimplyWalkIntoMordor (117 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath was telling Strange he could not hope to be a preserver of life and a destroyer of life at the same time. The comparison was in regards to Strange's actions, not his power level with Vishnu and Shiva. I already did refute this point earlier. The only one who would really think Shuma and Strange (at that point) would be lower in power than a deity that lost a fight to the Asgardian, Thor, is you.

Yes, i understand that, but they are still alluding to Shiva and Vishnu if they really meant cosmic level stuff here, they would have ben comparing themselves to folks like Oblivion and Eternity

By your logic, it is like saying, "I will follow Oblivion to make good grades in school."

One would simply not understand what you are talking about.

#134 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@OneDoesNotSimplyWalkIntoMordor said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath was telling Strange he could not hope to be a preserver of life and a destroyer of life at the same time. The comparison was in regards to Strange's actions, not his power level with Vishnu and Shiva. I already did refute this point earlier. The only one who would really think Shuma and Strange (at that point) would be lower in power than a deity that lost a fight to the Asgardian, Thor, is you.

Yes, i understand that, but they are still alluding to Shiva and Vishnu if they really meant cosmic level stuff here, they would have ben comparing themselves to folks like Oblivion and Eternity

By your logic, it is like saying, "I will follow Oblivion to make good grades in school."

One would simply not understand what you are talking about.

what?

Oblivion doesn't really have that as his domain, so no, that doesn't really make any sense

your logic isn't really making any sense to me

#135 Posted by OneDoesNotSimplyWalkIntoMordor (117 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@OneDoesNotSimplyWalkIntoMordor said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath was telling Strange he could not hope to be a preserver of life and a destroyer of life at the same time. The comparison was in regards to Strange's actions, not his power level with Vishnu and Shiva. I already did refute this point earlier. The only one who would really think Shuma and Strange (at that point) would be lower in power than a deity that lost a fight to the Asgardian, Thor, is you.

Yes, i understand that, but they are still alluding to Shiva and Vishnu if they really meant cosmic level stuff here, they would have ben comparing themselves to folks like Oblivion and Eternity

By your logic, it is like saying, "I will follow Oblivion to make good grades in school."

One would simply not understand what you are talking about.

what?

Oblivion doesn't really have that as his domain, so no, that doesn't really make any sense

Yes, so Dr. Strange chose not to say, "I will follow the path of Oblivion." Because it does not make sense. He used an icon that carries more motivation such as Shiva. Otherwise, he would know that one does not simply talk to Shuma without metaphors.

#136 Edited by Setherial (210 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath was telling Strange he could not hope to be a preserver of life and a destroyer of life at the same time. The comparison was in regards to Strange's actions, not his power level with Vishnu and Shiva. I already did refute this point earlier. The only one who would really think Shuma and Strange (at that point) would be lower in power than a deity that lost a fight to the Asgardian, Thor, is you.

Yes, i understand that, but they are still alluding to Shiva and Vishnu if they really meant cosmic level stuff here, they would have ben comparing themselves to folks like Oblivion and Eternity

And how would comparing themselves to cosmics have anything to do with the discussion they were having? Oblivion represents nothingness, Eternity represents time. Strange was faced with the dilemma of preservation vs destruction. Vishnu and Shiva were mentioned because of the concepts they represent - preservation and destruction, respectively. It's what was relevant to the issue at hand.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

When arguing about comic characters/feats/etc, Marvel Comic proof >>>>>>>>>>> "real world" logic.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:


Yes, but Arioch has Marvel Infinite power, which means essentially nothing

Using Marvel logic when arguing about the company's own characters makes far more sense than using real world logic to explain the powers of fictional characters.

Okay, lets try toto explain why "Shuma Gorath has infinite power" is a flawed argument

first of all, no one ever says he has infinite power

Second, in Marvel, anyone with "infinite" power can still be overpowered by people with "more infinite " power, so saying that he does is a mute point, as people like Arishem are described sometimes as being omnipotent

Also, Shuma does not have infinite power, only TOAA has infinite power, we've gone over this,

Shuma-Gorath has said himself he has infinite power. His servant Arioch said he had infinite power. Strange agreed that Arioch had infinite power. Kaluu later said more than once that Strange had become one with infinity.

TOAA is certainly the most powerful in Marvel, but that doesn't mean that others below him don't have infinite power. Again, there are levels of infinity. That's a Marvel cop-out but hey, that's Marvel for you.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

That's up to you to find your information. Type 'respect shuma-gorath' in google and you'll find one within the first three links, guaranteed. That being said, I own physical copies of all the story arcs Shuma-Gorath has appeared in. And what does Cammy have to do with anything?

I have found information in comics and on Marvunapp, nothing that really cries "above Celestial level" there

I did, and i found nothing useful relating to feats for the character, please, by all means, show me a link to an actual Reaspect SHuma thread, with actual feats

Cammy has to do with this because most "resopect Shuma" threads are about the character from Marvel vs Capcom, not the Earth 616 variation

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t477775.html

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

The nature of the model makes it not really count as legitimate planet busting( its a mystic device requiring prep that doesn't really use physical power), and in Marvel a dimension can mean anything from the entire observable universe to a 9x9x9 room where people can convieniantly hold there stuff. Tell me an issue or show me a scan where SHuma actually busts a planet

Shuma's action with the Earth simulacrum is superior to the action of one who actually has to physically go to the planet's vicinity to physically destroy it. Shuma-Gorath conjured Earth's image immediately and affected the real one from multiple planes of existence away. That's much more impressive.

Shuma couldn't even fit inside a 9x9x9 room. When Strange goes to Shuma's dimension there are numerous stars shown dotted throughout the sky beyond. The illustration shows that Shuma's dimension was a whole universe, not some tiny pocket.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

You have scans indicating that Shuma-Gorath in Thanos Imperative was merely an alternate universe version? Shuma-Gorath can change its form to whatever it likes, so using Shuma's appearance in TI isn't a valid argument. Shuma invades other universes and takes them over, so him appearing in alternate realities isn't out of character. Others who have alternate universe counterparts have acknowledged they have alternate counterparts, yet Shuma-Gorath has said himself that there are none like him. Based on the established history of the character, there's more pointing in favor of Shuma-Gorath in Thanos Imperative being the very same one seen in previous arcs than there is to say it was just an alternate reality counterpart - the storyline even involved the MAO's invading 616, which Shuma-Gorath has shown to desire already. Aside from that, even if it were the case that Shuma in Thanos Imperative was merely an alternate reality counterpart, the 616 versions of characters with alternate counterparts have generally been shown to be the most powerful.

Okay, so in the Cancerverse we see: Galactus, hulk, Captain Marvel, Captain America, Spider-man, and many others. now, these people are all alternate universe versions of their mainstream counterparts, so it would only serve logic to presume that Shuma of Cancerverse was also an alternate Universe version.

Great. But Shuma since the beginning has never been an Earth 616 character and has always tried to invade the prime reality from the outside. You can say it's an alternate counterpart and I can just as easily say it's the same Shuma-Gorath that was just doing what the character has always been written to do - invading other realities. Either way, prime reality characters have always been superior to alternate reality counterparts so if it were indeed the case that this was some random Shuma clone that would only point to the prime Shuma-Gorath being superior.

#137 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@OneDoesNotSimplyWalkIntoMordor said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@OneDoesNotSimplyWalkIntoMordor said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath was telling Strange he could not hope to be a preserver of life and a destroyer of life at the same time. The comparison was in regards to Strange's actions, not his power level with Vishnu and Shiva. I already did refute this point earlier. The only one who would really think Shuma and Strange (at that point) would be lower in power than a deity that lost a fight to the Asgardian, Thor, is you.

Yes, i understand that, but they are still alluding to Shiva and Vishnu if they really meant cosmic level stuff here, they would have ben comparing themselves to folks like Oblivion and Eternity

By your logic, it is like saying, "I will follow Oblivion to make good grades in school."

One would simply not understand what you are talking about.

what?

Oblivion doesn't really have that as his domain, so no, that doesn't really make any sense

Yes, so Dr. Strange chose not to say, "I will follow the path of Oblivion." Because it does not make sense. He used an icon that carries more motivation such as Shiva. Otherwise, he would know that one does not simply talk to Shuma without metaphors.

If Shuma's really a cosmic being like people say, why would he have emotional connections with Shiva but not with Oblivion?

@Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath has said himself he has infinite power. His servant Arioch said he had infinite power. Strange agreed that Arioch had infinite power. Kaluu later said more than once that Strange had become one with infinity.

TOAA is certainly the most powerful in Marvel, but that doesn't mean that others below him don't have infinite power. Again, there are levels of infinity. That's a Marvel cop-out but hey, that's Marvel for you.

I know Marvel has levels of infinity, i even agreed with that, i also said that if there are levels of infinity, someone being infinite is a mute point, esp[ecially considering people like Exitart are also described as "omnipotent" on a regular basis

for the whole Arioch thing, Dr Strange's attempts to quantify powers tend to range from heavily exaggerated to completely made up

furthermore, I don't think anyone other than Shuma has ever had Shuma has infinite power ( all villains make this kind of ridiculous claim)

@Setherial said:

Shuma couldn't even fit inside a 9x9x9 room. When Strange goes to Shuma's dimension there are numerous stars shown dotted throughout the sky beyond. The illustration shows that Shuma's dimension was a whole universe, not some tiny pocket.

@Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath can change its form to whatever it likes

well, which is it?

also, no, there is no exploration, nothing to show the skys had full sized stars (rather than just pinholes in the night sky, as is almostg tstandard for mystic realms). i still see nothing suggesting Shuma holds an entire universe with physical(nonpolitical/not fear based/not through an elaborate system of trick) powers

@Setherial said:

Great. But Shuma since the beginning has never been an Earth 616 character and has always tried to invade the prime reality from the outside.You can say it's an alternate counterpart and I can just as easily say it's the same Shuma-Gorath that was just doing what the character has always been written to do - invading other realities. Either way, prime reality characters have always been superior to alternate reality counterparts so if it were indeed the case that this was some random Shuma clone that would only point to the prime Shuma-Gorath being superior.

what? yes, Shuma has been an Earth 616 character according to all official and on-panel sources. this character has been stated to be an alternate reality counterpart. and no, prime reality versions are not always stronger (i don't think the universe of Earth 616 is even the prime reality, i think the Star Vault is the prime universe of Marvel) This Guy is clearly another version of Shuma, or else why can Ryu and Ken kick his ass?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t477775.html

The Sise-Neg thing was pretty much the only one that would put him near the Celestials (seriously, half of that stuff was "able to hypnotize a man" or "able to summon fire from the sky" stuff that means nothing for the higher marvel guys)

and even the SIse Neg thing had him before he was anywhere near full power, and didn't really show he saw SHuma as a threat, he was just like "ain't no-one got time for that": and banished him

Nothing here was really above the Galaxy Wrecking stuff from The Celestials

Odin shoots blasts that destroy galaxies and shock dimensions or realms as collateral damage

Arishem laughing off full power Odin and two of his peers, and thats not even the real ARishem, thats just his Armor controlled through hyperspace.

lets see (SEE) Shuma do anything like that

another Skyfather, Crom, was able to write a series of novels that put Shuma to rest

Before you guys start saying that Conan stuff isn't canon, here are some peeps in modern Marvel who come From REH

http://www.comicvine.com/selene/29-2176/

http://www.comicvine.com/ulysses-bloodstone/29-10960/

http://www.comicvine.com/set/29-29092/ (yes, Set was in Egyptian Mythology, but him as an Abhorrent anti-human Serpent is clearly from Howard http://hyboria.xoth.net/gods/set.htm)

Kull is an official descendent of Namor's Atlantis

http://marvel.wikia.com/Atlantis

Oh yeah, and SHuma Gorath comes from the Howard story "The Curse of the Golden Skull"

#138 Edited by cosmic_reign (345 posts) - - Show Bio

Whether mainstream reality or alternate reality, TRANSIFINITE is greater than INFINITE and VIRTUALLY OMNIPOTENT is greater than VIRTUALLY OMNIPOTENT in one's REALM.

No dought Thanos Imperative SG was a beast and by far his best showing, but in every story arc the main villian is always pumped up.

On the flip-side, Celestials are written fairly consistant thru out Marvel history and have always been shown to be some of the highest top-dogs in the cosmic hierarchy. HIgh enough to require the attention of high-end cosmic villians.(ie Korvac after amping himself with Big G's world ship made it a point to personally see if the Celestials were gonna intervene and still was hardly able to comprehend their thoughts. And Maelstrom also made it a point to harrass Galactus, Thanos with IG and Celestials).

Even the Mad Celestials were beasts and if their 616 counterparts are more powerful (based on what some are sayin), then the multiverse wouldve been conquered.

The 4th Hosts wins....

#139 Edited by Setherial (210 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath has said himself he has infinite power. His servant Arioch said he had infinite power. Strange agreed that Arioch had infinite power. Kaluu later said more than once that Strange had become one with infinity.

TOAA is certainly the most powerful in Marvel, but that doesn't mean that others below him don't have infinite power. Again, there are levels of infinity. That's a Marvel cop-out but hey, that's Marvel for you.

I know Marvel has levels of infinity, i even agreed with that, i also said that if there are levels of infinity, someone being infinite is a mute point, esp[ecially considering people like Exitart are also described as "omnipotent" on a regular basis

for the whole Arioch thing, Dr Strange's attempts to quantify powers tend to range from heavily exaggerated to completely made up

furthermore, I don't think anyone other than Shuma has ever had Shuma has infinite power ( all villains make this kind of ridiculous claim)

There's nothing to suggest that Arioch's power was made up, especially considering that in the realm before Arioch's, Kaluu, the Ancient One's peer, collapsed and was being killed due to the potency of the realm's energy. This is a guy who has invoked Chthon and even spent 500 years learning Octessence magic in Raggador's dimension. Then after the battle with Shuma-Gorath, Kaluu was going to die just by touching Strange.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

Shuma couldn't even fit inside a 9x9x9 room. When Strange goes to Shuma's dimension there are numerous stars shown dotted throughout the sky beyond. The illustration shows that Shuma's dimension was a whole universe, not some tiny pocket.

@Setherial said:

Shuma-Gorath can change its form to whatever it likes

well, which is it?

also, no, there is no exploration, nothing to show the skys had full sized stars (rather than just pinholes in the night sky, as is almostg tstandard for mystic realms). i still see nothing suggesting Shuma holds an entire universe with physical(nonpolitical/not fear based/not through an elaborate system of trick) powers

Pry all you want. Obviously I was pointing out the absurdity of suggesting that Shuma-Gorath went around conquering insignificant pockets of space.

Nothing to show that the dimension had full sized stars? How about full sized stars in the background. What, did Shuma-Gorath just paint a landscape with his tentacles? lol

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

Great. But Shuma since the beginning has never been an Earth 616 character and has always tried to invade the prime reality from the outside.You can say it's an alternate counterpart and I can just as easily say it's the same Shuma-Gorath that was just doing what the character has always been written to do - invading other realities. Either way, prime reality characters have always been superior to alternate reality counterparts so if it were indeed the case that this was some random Shuma clone that would only point to the prime Shuma-Gorath being superior.

what? yes, Shuma has been an Earth 616 character according to all official and on-panel sources. this character has been stated to be an alternate reality counterpart. and no, prime reality versions are not always stronger (i don't think the universe of Earth 616 is even the prime reality, i think the Star Vault is the prime universe of Marvel) This Guy is clearly another version of Shuma, or else why can Ryu and Ken kick his ass?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t477775.html

The Sise-Neg thing was pretty much the only one that would put him near the Celestials (seriously, half of that stuff was "able to hypnotize a man" or "able to summon fire from the sky" stuff that means nothing for the higher marvel guys)

and even the SIse Neg thing had him before he was anywhere near full power, and didn't really show he saw SHuma as a threat, he was just like "ain't no-one got time for that": and banished him

616 is the prime reality. And please name a godlike entity from an alternate reality that's superior to its counterpart. Anyway, alternate reality characters from outside Earth 616 summoning Shuma-Gorath doesn't make proof that the Shuma-Gorath summoned was an alternate reality counterpart to the real thing, simply for the fact that Shuma-Gorath originated outside Earth 616 in the first place. It ruled over hundreds of dimensions, the Cancerverse is just one of them. Shuma-Gorath was also shown to have taken over Nightmare's realm, which is located beyond the 6th dimension and is not even connected to the 616 reality in any way. You need some kind of proof that Shuma-Gorath in Thanos Imperative was a different one, outside of 'oh he was summoned by an alternate reality character', because that doesn't work. Shuma-Gorath isn't restricted to interacting with the prime reality. In fact, he's been prevented from coming within it more often than not.

Btw, Sise-Neg was near his absolute full power when he encountered Shuma-Gorath. Shuma was the very last possessor of mystical energy in the universe that Sise-Neg needed to recreate reality. And even then he was concerned about Shuma being able to absorb energy from him.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

Odin shoots blasts that destroy galaxies and shock dimensions or realms as collateral damage

Arishem laughing off full power Odin and two of his peers, and thats not even the real ARishem, thats just his Armor controlled through hyperspace.

lets see (SEE) Shuma do anything like that

Strange with Shuma's power was going to bust galaxies just by him standing in the vicinity. There's also Shuma-Gorath taking over Nightmare's realm and making him a servant without even needing to enter it, he's fought the three members of the Vishanti, one of which was fighting Galactus by himself and doing alright with it. When the Ancient One learned Shuma-Gorath was targeting Earth, he knew he was a dead man and gave up - the same guy who put up a fight against Zom. In any case Thanos Imperative solidifies Shuma-Gorath as one of the Cancerverse's masters, making them > the Galactus Engine which was > Galactus, and some Celestials (one which was Arishem).

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

lets see (SEE) Shuma do anything like that

Let's see a Celestial open a jar of pickles with its butt cheeks. I haven't SEEN them do that on panel so I doubt they could.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

another Skyfather, Crom, was able to write a series of novels that put Shuma to rest

Before you guys start saying that Conan stuff isn't canon, here are some peeps in modern Marvel who come From REH

http://www.comicvine.com/selene/29-2176/

http://www.comicvine.com/ulysses-bloodstone/29-10960/

http://www.comicvine.com/set/29-29092/ (yes, Set was in Egyptian Mythology, but him as an Abhorrent anti-human Serpent is clearly from Howard http://hyboria.xoth.net/gods/set.htm)

Kull is an official descendent of Namor's Atlantis

http://marvel.wikia.com/Atlantis

Oh yeah, and SHuma Gorath comes from the Howard story "The Curse of the Golden Skull"

He had to use a plot device to simply contain Shuma. Great.

#140 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@Setherial said:

There's nothing to suggest that Arioch's power was made up, especially considering that in the realm before Arioch's, Kaluu, the Ancient One's peer, collapsed and was being killed due to the potency of the realm's energy. This is a guy who has invoked Chthon and even spent 500 years learning Octessence magic in Raggador's dimension. Then after the battle with Shuma-Gorath, Kaluu was going to die just by touching Strange.

How does that compare with feats by the Celestials? also, infinite power is (not infinite in normal terms, like, the in-universe definition is different from the out-of-universe-one) in Marvel, because there are a lot of powers higher than infinite

@Setherial said:

Pry all you want. Obviously I was pointing out the absurdity of suggesting that Shuma-Gorath went around conquering insignificant pockets of space.

Nothing to show that the dimension had full sized stars? How about full sized stars in the background. What, did Shuma-Gorath just paint a landscape with his tentacles? lol

well, this is a mystical realm. Mystical realms tend to have stars in more abstract senses than the physical cosmos. It's just as likely that those stars were just mile-diameter balls of fire.

and i was pointing out that dimensions could be that small to show that Shuma's realm of one thousand dimensions, even if each was, say, the size of a Solar System, wouldn't be nearly as large as a galaxy. and we haven't nearly the in-depth searching of Shuma's realm to say eany one IS larger than a Solar System

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

Great. But Shuma since the beginning has never been an Earth 616 character and has always tried to invade the prime reality from the outside.You can say it's an alternate counterpart and I can just as easily say it's the same Shuma-Gorath that was just doing what the character has always been written to do - invading other realities. Either way, prime reality characters have always been superior to alternate reality counterparts so if it were indeed the case that this was some random Shuma clone that would only point to the prime Shuma-Gorath being superior.

what? yes, Shuma has been an Earth 616 character according to all official and on-panel sources. this character has been stated to be an alternate reality counterpart. and no, prime reality versions are not always stronger (i don't think the universe of Earth 616 is even the prime reality, i think the Star Vault is the prime universe of Marvel) This Guy is clearly another version of Shuma, or else why can Ryu and Ken kick his ass?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t477775.html

The Sise-Neg thing was pretty much the only one that would put him near the Celestials (seriously, half of that stuff was "able to hypnotize a man" or "able to summon fire from the sky" stuff that means nothing for the higher marvel guys)

and even the SIse Neg thing had him before he was anywhere near full power, and didn't really show he saw SHuma as a threat, he was just like "ain't no-one got time for that": and banished him

616 is the prime reality. And please name a godlike entity from an alternate reality that's superior to its counterpart. Anyway, alternate reality characters from outside Earth 616 summoning Shuma-Gorath doesn't make proof that the Shuma-Gorath summoned was an alternate reality counterpart to the real thing, simply for the fact that Shuma-Gorath originated outside Earth 616 in the first place. It ruled over hundreds of dimensions, the Canverse is just one of them. Shuma-Gorath was also shown to have taken over Nightmare's realm, which is located beyond the 6th dimension and is not even connected to the 616 reality in any way. You need some kind of proof that Shuma-Gorath in Thanos Imperative was a different one, outside of 'oh he was summoned by an alternate reality character', because that doesn't work. Shuma-Gorath isn't restricted to interacting with the prime reality. In fact, he's been prevented from coming within it more often than not.

THERE IS NOTHING TO SUGGEST THAT SHUMA GORATH COMES FROM OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSE OF EARTH 616.

If Earth 616 was the prime reality, it would have a number like 1 or a letter like a

also, nightmare is connected to Erath 616, and he has alternate reality versions like everyone else http://marvel.wikia.com/Nightmare_(Earth-1610) and http://marvel.wikia.com/Nightmare_(Earth-91119)

We assume cancerverse Shuma is an alternate universe counterpart because EVERYONE ELSE in the Cancerverse was an alternate universe counterpart

@Setherial said:

Btw, Sise-Neg was near his absolute full power when he encountered Shuma-Gorath. Shuma was the very last possessor of mystical energy in the universe that Sise-Neg needed to recreate reality. And even then he was concerned about Shuma being able to absorb energy from him.

No he wasn't, he was about 2,000,000 BC, where the Universe of Earth 616 goes back 20,000,000,000 years, So Sise-neg hadn't even absorbed the elder Gods yet ( he did that at the dawn of Earth) and was about 1/20,000 of the way through his journey back through time

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

Odin shoots blasts that destroy galaxies and shock dimensions or realms as collateral damage

Arishem laughing off full power Odin and two of his peers, and thats not even the real ARishem, thats just his Armor controlled through hyperspace.

lets see (SEE) Shuma do anything like that

Strange with Shuma's power was going to bust galaxies just by him standing in the vicinity.

No, he wasn't

@Setherial said:

There's also Shuma-Gorath taking over Nightmare's realm and making him a servant without even needing to enter it, he's fought the three members of the Vishanti, one of which was fighting Galactus by himself and doing alright with it.

Nightmare's kind of a punk with oen useful power (this power doesn't apply to Shuma, who deosn't seem to dream) i don't remeber Shuma ever fighting the Vishanti, and Aggamotto was certainly acting like a ponce before Galactus, but wasn't necessarily doing very well

@Setherial said:

When the Ancient One learned Shuma-Gorath was targeting Earth, he knew he was a dead man and gave up - the same guy who put up a fight against Zom. In any case Thanos Imperative solidifies Shuma-Gorath as one of the Cancerverse's masters, making them > the Galactus Engine which was > Galactus, and some Celestials (one which was Arishem).

First of all, the Shuma in the Cancerverse was a different guy, second, The Galactus Engine is a weapon, like the Infinity Gauntlet or the HotU, anyone can use it as long as they have it, regardless of power

also, Celestials don't really have any glutial features on their armor, so, probably they couldn't

#141 Posted by Living_Monstrosity (428 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

#142 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

1) hSuma Lost by Doctor Strange becoming the Sorcerer Supreme by absorborbing Dark Magic from Arioch

2) Shuma didn't so much die as...get wrecked

  1. Wrong!
  2. Wrong!

Now I know you haven't read anything.

You don't know the context.

Even @Setherial: could try to explain it to you, but you would take him as "making it up" too. Even Killemall has that problem as well. Both of you depend on a collection of out of context scans, but neither of you have read anything of the story at all. Is this how you guys debate with users such as @czarny_samael666: @the human Juggernaut: @Jedisupermaster: @lord_oraculous016: @a88378438: @karrob: @tron_bonne @TheUltimateSurvivor:@TheFallenOne : @higher_evolutionary: @Lance Bastro: @Shuma-Gorath: @kenshiroo: @TheJuggernautpunch: @lordraiden: @Prince CortSether: @TabithaCucumber: @Zorn_a_Rust_Red_Scythe: @Bo88gdan:@Setherial:????

You just call them liars?

What kind of tactic is that?

Low-Balling?

Wait What?

Shuma Gorath did in fact lose against Dr. Strange, thats as clear a loss as it gets, backed on panel and by handbook.

Funny how you call it collection of out of context scans, when i have posted the entire chronology of Shuma Gorath.

Also Shuma Gorath, was as close to being dead as it is possible. He has beaten, destroyed, drained and replaced.

Stop making things up.

Low Balling? I would say this accounting to crying to guts out when you are out of argument.

Note: I said Shuma would solo though, what i dont agree is half of the weird things you say, like Shuma is some 20 dimensional being, Shuma is omnipotent in his realm any more than celestial, Shuma is lightyear across, being an extra-dimensional being he should be compared to PR Beyonder.

Based on feats, and explanation, he is a universal power at best.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

No it isn't, i already linked to a research paper saying otherwise

true, but their not as set on observing and understanding the Universe, like how Reede Richards is smarter than Captain Marvel

It actally is, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor's_paradox

Marvel accepts it, what Kubik told Kosmos (the first set of scans you saw) was the very thing that Cantor used to justify his position.

Watcher certainly spent more time, not sure about multiverse but i am quite certain cosmic cube gives you universal and beyond awarness, point was they themselves are pretty reliable source.

#143 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall:

I'm not the one arguing. You're the one arguing. I'm just having a discussion. You might have posted a chronology of Shuma, but that doesn't mean you've necessarily read them..... The right way.

#144 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning:

okayt this is pretty much what your saying

"everything iu say is right, i don't ned to quantify anything, everything you say is wrong, i can post feats that are entirely uinquantified and it's true, because its true, we don't ned any evidence of anything I'm saying being true, because it is. also, don't check anything i say, because I'm already right about all of this"

QUANTIFY ANYTHING!!!

You don't understand...

I am not debating with you. I am just redirecting you to plots that you have missed through jumping into conclusion by judging what is seen by the naked eye on one scan. The difference between us having this discussion, is that I understand the context and you are guessing at it and and stating an opinion.

Your statement: "Watch Shuma get destroyed by a power equal to Shiva"

My statement: "Watch Dr. Strange become Shuma-Gorath as he uses Shuma's own power to repel an image away. He does not invoke Shiva. He is metaphorically stating (just like how Shuma talks in metaphors) that Shiva's philosophy is to destroy an image to recreate a new image." (Hence the Shiva & Vishnu philosophy)

The scans above are clearly saying that Dr. Strange is Shuma-Gorath who is going by a "belief" that if he is able to destroy he must recreate.

Shuma-Gorath is telling Dr. Strange that he can indeed do that if he wants, but it will be under the usage of Shuma-Gorath's own power. So the context is that Dr. Strange didn't destroy Shuma-Gorath. He threw the Earth at the image of the green tentacle eyed image, but Shuma is still existing within that entire dimension and that included Dr. Strange himself.

Why do you think that Strange stabbed himself after the fight? (to no prevail)

Also, remember he threw the Earth at the image (the shell) of Shuma-Gorath? Call it a mystic image as you might, that Earth was still Earth because anything done to it effected Earth.

<----

Suggesting that the Earths are the same Earth and also Suggesting that Dr. Strange is bigger than the planet Earth.

<-----

Because in the Dimension of Shuma-Gorath... (Spatial Dimension), one has to have larger than live essence and a comprehension to exist there. (Look back at Kaluu: who has nearly died just landing between the states of two cross dimensions (He was between Eternity's Dimension and Shuma's Dimension)

But before you can even bare to comprehend of this next scan, you must 1st study or at least read about Extra spatial dimensions

So do you still say I am making this all up?

Do you say that Setherial is making this all up?

Do you say that Terry Austin or Petter Grillis is making this up?

Do you say Stan Lee is making this up?

Do you say Tom Defalco is making this up?

Do you say Steve Englehart is making this up?

Do you say that Roy Thomas is making this up?

Who is making this all up?

#145 Posted by Setherial (210 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

There's nothing to suggest that Arioch's power was made up, especially considering that in the realm before Arioch's, Kaluu, the Ancient One's peer, collapsed and was being killed due to the potency of the realm's energy. This is a guy who has invoked Chthon and even spent 500 years learning Octessence magic in Raggador's dimension. Then after the battle with Shuma-Gorath, Kaluu was going to die just by touching Strange.

How does that compare with feats by the Celestials? also, infinite power is (not infinite in normal terms, like, the in-universe definition is different from the out-of-universe-one) in Marvel, because there are a lot of powers higher than infinite

Cool story. How does the 4th host win this again?

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

Pry all you want. Obviously I was pointing out the absurdity of suggesting that Shuma-Gorath went around conquering insignificant pockets of space.

Nothing to show that the dimension had full sized stars? How about full sized stars in the background. What, did Shuma-Gorath just paint a landscape with his tentacles? lol

well, this is a mystical realm. Mystical realms tend to have stars in more abstract senses than the physical cosmos. It's just as likely that those stars were just mile-diameter balls of fire.

and i was pointing out that dimensions could be that small to show that Shuma's realm of one thousand dimensions, even if each was, say, the size of a Solar System, wouldn't be nearly as large as a galaxy. and we haven't nearly the in-depth searching of Shuma's realm to say eany one IS larger than a Solar System

Back in the day the words universe and dimension were used interchangeably, and it often times, depending on the author, is used interchangeably to this day - it is even used interchangeably in Thanos Imperative. Shuma-Gorath's realm showed stars in the sky, not only far off in the distance, but even closer to the terrain that Shuma-Gorath and Strange were fighting in. Beyond the terrain there is a starry sky and there are stars shown close by. Nothing suggests that the stars were mile-diameter balls of fire. They were stars. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it is probably is a duck.

Even if the dimension were the size of a solar system, showing planet busting feats from the Celestials doesn't show superiority to conquering of dimensions, especially considering Shuma-Gorath toyed with the Earth from dimensions away.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

THERE IS NOTHING TO SUGGEST THAT SHUMA GORATH COMES FROM OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSE OF EARTH 616.

If Earth 616 was the prime reality, it would have a number like 1 or a letter like a

also, nightmare is connected to Erath 616, and he has alternate reality versions like everyone else http://marvel.wikia.com/Nightmare_(Earth-1610) and http://marvel.wikia.com/Nightmare_(Earth-91119)

We assume cancerverse Shuma is an alternate universe counterpart because EVERYONE ELSE in the Cancerverse was an alternate universe counterpart

Nothing to suggest that Shuma-Gorath comes from outside the prime reality aside from it being stated on-panel that Shuma-Gorath was spawned in another dimension and Shuma's bio confirming that Shuma is extra-dimensional in origin.

Nightmare and his realm are located so far beyond 616 that it's even higher than the 6th dimension, stated by Dweller in Darkness.

The Cancerverse in Thanos Imperative resembled Earth 616 and had alternate counterparts, but the Many-Angled Ones were NOT natives of the Cancerverse. They detected the suffering of the universe when Lord Mar-Vell was dying from cancer and made a bargain with him where he agreed to kill Death. After Death was destroyed during the Necropsy ritual, the MAO's were free to enter the universe and turn Reality 10011 into what it looked like during the assault. The Cancerverse's Galactus and all the others that were transmuted were natives of Reality 10011, unlike the MAO's called by Mar-Vell that originated elsewhere and were summoned into that reality that got turned into the Cancerverse.

The point here is that arguing Shuma in Thanos Imperative was an alternate reality version based on Reality 10011 being a counterpart to Reality 616 makes no sense because of the fact that the Many-Angled Ones were not natives of that universe. Basing the appearance and setup of Reality 10011 in comparison with those from 616 to argue that Shuma-Gorath was an alternate reality version of himself is illogical. There's no correlation. This is especially apparent when Thanos says that the Many-Angled Ones also had influence in Reality 616, just not as strong as in Reality 10011.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

Btw, Sise-Neg was near his absolute full power when he encountered Shuma-Gorath. Shuma was the very last possessor of mystical energy in the universe that Sise-Neg needed to recreate reality. And even then he was concerned about Shuma being able to absorb energy from him.

No he wasn't, he was about 2,000,000 BC, where the Universe of Earth 616 goes back 20,000,000,000 years, So Sise-neg hadn't even absorbed the elder Gods yet ( he did that at the dawn of Earth) and was about 1/20,000 of the way through his journey back through time

He actually was near absolute power. He even states "I know not its name, but I sense it to be an other-dimensional entity- the FINAL possessor of mystical energy I must have".

Sise-Neg had continuously absorbed from everything in the universe as he spanned eons in mere moments. He only stopped during certain periods on Earth if he was intrigued by the source of mystic power, and each time he stopped the source of mystic power had to be larger than the last. Notice that he stopped where Shuma-Gorath was on Earth because he was interested in Shuma's vast power - he didn't give a crap about stopping to take the Elder Gods' powers when they were on Earth, he just absorbed them from afar.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

Odin shoots blasts that destroy galaxies and shock dimensions or realms as collateral damage

Arishem laughing off full power Odin and two of his peers, and thats not even the real ARishem, thats just his Armor controlled through hyperspace.

lets see (SEE) Shuma do anything like that

Strange with Shuma's power was going to bust galaxies just by him standing in the vicinity.

No, he wasn't

Except he was. And in battle between Strange and Shuma, it was said that all the netherrealms would be destroyed. This is not unbelievable, as Shuma-Gorath is one who fought the Vishanti who affirmed they had power to destroy the universe in battle with Slorioth.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

There's also Shuma-Gorath taking over Nightmare's realm and making him a servant without even needing to enter it, he's fought the three members of the Vishanti, one of which was fighting Galactus by himself and doing alright with it.

Nightmare's kind of a punk with oen useful power (this power doesn't apply to Shuma, who deosn't seem to dream) i don't remeber Shuma ever fighting the Vishanti, and Aggamotto was certainly acting like a ponce before Galactus, but wasn't necessarily doing very well

Shuma-Gorath does dream. Even still, Nightmare was forced into servitude without Shuma needing to enter his far off realm of Everinnye. Agamotto himself could not even destroy Shuma-Gorath, even with help from Oshtur and Hoggoth. They would not even help Strange against Shuma-Gorath when he requested aid for fear of throwing the universe out of cosmic balance.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Setherial said:

When the Ancient One learned Shuma-Gorath was targeting Earth, he knew he was a dead man and gave up - the same guy who put up a fight against Zom. In any case Thanos Imperative solidifies Shuma-Gorath as one of the Cancerverse's masters, making them > the Galactus Engine which was > Galactus, and some Celestials (one which was Arishem).

First of all, the Shuma in the Cancerverse was a different guy, second, The Galactus Engine is a weapon, like the Infinity Gauntlet or the HotU, anyone can use it as long as they have it, regardless of power

also, Celestials don't really have any glutial features on their armor, so, probably they couldn't

First of all, I refuted your silly claim that Shuma of the Cancerverse was an alternate reality counterpart, so enough of that nonsense. Secondly, the Galactus Engine was only as powerful as it was because the Many-Angled Ones took the Reality 10011 Galactus apart and weaponized it with their power. No random Joe Shmoe entity could have made it as powerful as it was.

#146 Edited by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Killemall:

I'm not the one arguing. You're the one arguing. I'm just having a discussion. You might have posted a chronology of Shuma, but that doesn't mean you've necessarily read them..... The right way.

Come on you called the entire forum say I dont comprehend things, so prove it.

Chop chop.

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

Also, remember he threw the Earth at the image (the shell) of Shuma-Gorath? Call it a mystic image as you might, that Earth was still Earth because anything done to it effected Earth.

<----

Suggesting that the Earths are the same Earth and also Suggesting that Dr. Strange is bigger than the planet Earth.

<-----

Because in the Dimension of Shuma-Gorath... (Spatial Dimension), one has to have larger than live essence and a comprehension to exist there. (Look back at Kaluu: who has nearly died just landing between the states of two cross dimensions (He was between Eternity's Dimension and Shuma's Dimension)

But before you can even bare to comprehend of this next scan, you must 1st study or at least read about Extra spatial dimensions

So do you still say I am making this all up?

Do you say that Setherial is making this all up?

Do you say that Terry Austin or Petter Grillis is making this up?

Do you say Stan Lee is making this up?

Do you say Tom Defalco is making this up?

Do you say Steve Englehart is making this up?

Do you say that Roy Thomas is making this up?

Who is making this all up?

LOL YES you are making things up.

Since you like big letters lets try

Where does it say the two earth are of same size????????

Lie through your teeth much??

Where does it suggest Dr. Strange is bigger than the planet earth?

Come on show me which particular sentence says that?

What is the last scan supposed to prove?

As the scan reads "Since this plane is less highly charged than the one we left , your energy naturally discharges. If i brought you to earth in this stage you could and would destroy galaxy".

Clearly is referring to the fact that Earth is LESS charged and hence more of Dr. Strange energy would be dischange, this energy would annihilate galaxies (an unsubstantiated claim as we dont see a single galaxy destroyed) even less weight given that Odin has been descibed as having power to destroy galaxies, as well as the entire freakin multiverse as a side effect of his fight.

So instead of trying to intedimate a new poster prove what you are saying with actualy panel.

YES YOU ARE MAKING STUFF, DARE I SAY PULLING THING OUT OF YOUR A$$

#147 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

The 4th Host even if allied with the Mad Celestials are simply no match at all....

Each of the entire race of Celestials can fit inside of the essence of Eternity..... That's how small these guys are.

If each of them can manifest inside of Eternity without throwing balance out of order, than that means their power is smaller than Eternty.

Other essences like Shuma-Gorath & Cyttorak & Zom & Slorioth & Dorammu are bigger or big as Eternity.

So if they step inside... It wreck the balance!

That's why the Living Tribunal and Eternity don't want these guys walking around it's dimension.

#148 Posted by thanosii (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

It's clear to me based on scans and arguments presented that the celestials have no chance arguing against with no evidence is just being a troll. Time to move on this thread is over

#149 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

@Killemall:

LOL! You are going insane!

I can understand though. Comics can do that to a person. XD

#150 Posted by Killemall (18564 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning said:

@Killemall:

LOL! You are going insane!

I can understand though. Comics can do that to a person. XD

Lets put it in big letters

Prove what you are saying

Note: I am not saying celesitals win, what i am saying however is this:

1. Prove that 2 mystical globe, vs Earth were of same size, We have seen a voodoo doll made of Wanda which affect Wanda too, you wanna claim how thats of the size too despite Quicksilver holding it in his hands???

2. Prove that Dr. Strange was bigger than the earth. Come on, chop chop.

If you cant prove and are pulling thing out of a hat and you say i dont comprehend and i am an idiot?