#1 Posted by BigCimmerian (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

- Round 1 take place on Earth, round 2 in Crimson Cosmos and round 3 in Chaos Dimension

- This is 4th host Celestials with Arishem the Judge

- No prep, who wins and why?

#2 Posted by jamesbyng188 (231 posts) - - Show Bio

@BigCimmerian: Round 2 and 3 is Cyttorak and Shuma. Round 1 though I'm not sure. But I don't know what they can do to Shuma besides banish him, and for cyttorak, I see to many problems for celestials from him.

#3 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

The Celestials can not exist in any other dimension besides the ones that inside the realm of Eternity.

#4 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm seeing the Celestials win in rounds 1 and 3, Cytorrak in the Crimson Cosmos should win

#5 Posted by BigCimmerian (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSecondOpinion said:

The Celestials can not exist in any other dimension besides the ones that inside the realm of Eternity.

Pretend they can exist, this is battle forum not actual comics

#6 Posted by BigCimmerian (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

I'm seeing the Celestials win in rounds 1 and 3, Cytorrak in the Crimson Cosmos should win

But Shuma Gorath is considered to be nigh omnipotent in his main dimension, demons Mephisto and Satanish are considered like mice to him, even when he is in his lesser realms.

#7 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@BigCimmerian: Not really sure about those second two, and I thought Strange beat Shuma in his home dimension

#8 Posted by Evil Incarnate (3447 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@BigCimmerian: Not really sure about those second two, and I thought Strange beat Shuma in his home dimension

He was amped to an ungodly level and started to turn into Shuma and had to destroy himself IIRC.

#9 Posted by BigCimmerian (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@BigCimmerian: Not really sure about those second two, and I thought Strange beat Shuma in his home dimension

I'm not sure what happened when Strange defeated him, but I heard Doctor was really amped and had prep.

#10 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@BigCimmerian: waaaaiiitt, has either of us actually read an issue containing Shuma Gorath?

#11 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@Evil Incarnate: i request scans

#12 Edited by BigCimmerian (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@BigCimmerian: waaaaiiitt, has either of us actually read an issue containing Shuma Gorath?

I read only Thanos Imperative and what I saw Shuma and his fellow Many Angled Ones were powering Galactus Engine which showed that Celestials and Galactus are nothing compared to it.

#13 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@BigCimmerian: yeah, well, its pretty vague over weather or not this Shuma Gorath was the same one from Earth 616, anyways, having a powerful weapon is different from being powerful ( Harry Truman could hardly punch with the force of a fission bomb)

#14 Posted by Evil Incarnate (3447 posts) - - Show Bio
#15 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@BigCimmerian said:

@TheSecondOpinion said:

The Celestials can not exist in any other dimension besides the ones that inside the realm of Eternity.

Pretend they can exist, this is battle forum not actual comics

Ok,

  • A Celestial Armor is averaged at 2,000 feet high.
  • The Twin Towers are roughly 1,400 feet high
  • Mount Everest is 30,000 feet high
  • The Earth is 25,000 Miles across
  • The Sun is 800,000 Miles across
  • The Solar System is 2,200,000,000 Miles across
  • The Calabash Nebular is 1 Light Year across
  • The Milky Way Galaxy is 100,000 Light Years across
  • Local Cluster is 10,000,000 Light Years across
  • Coma Wall is 500,000,000 Light Years across
  • Observable Universe is 94,000,000,000,000 Light Years across
  • Shuma or Cyttorak would be times that by the 20ths Dimension (94 Trillion Light Years times 20)

So this is what it's like for a 2,000 feet Armor fighting against something larger than a whole Universe times 20th power.

#16 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@Evil Incarnate: That was ool, and I'll admit Shuma's a pretty bad dude, but i don't really see anything to put him above Celestials.

@TheSecondOpinion: In his own Dimension Shuma was only about the size of a mountain (Exitar is about 2/3rds as tall as the world's largest mountain, so there's that)

#17 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Evil Incarnate: That was ool, and I'll admit Shuma's a pretty bad dude, but i don't really see anything to put him above Celestials.

@TheSecondOpinion: In his own Dimension Shuma was only about the size of a mountain (Exitar is about 2/3rds as tall as the world's largest mountain, so there's that)

That wasn't Shuma... You have to read the entire arc to understand. Maybe CortSether is better at explaining it. But that wasn't Shuma entire self. It was an essence of his many angles. So either Dr. Strange grew as tall as a few hundred trillion light years in size or Shuma condensed itself into the size of a mountain. You also have to remember at that time. Shuma was at one point 10 times larger than Earth. So why would Shuma be switching sizes randomly that is if only he is using these bodies as mere creations of his power.

#18 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSecondOpinion said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Evil Incarnate: That was ool, and I'll admit Shuma's a pretty bad dude, but i don't really see anything to put him above Celestials.

@TheSecondOpinion: In his own Dimension Shuma was only about the size of a mountain (Exitar is about 2/3rds as tall as the world's largest mountain, so there's that)

That wasn't Shuma... You have to read the entire arc to understand. Maybe CortSether is better at explaining it. But that wasn't Shuma entire self. It was an essence of his many angles. So either Dr. Strange grew as tall as a few hundred trillion light years in size or Shuma condensed itself into the size of a mountain. You also have to remember at that time. Shuma was at one point 10 times larger than Earth. So why would Shuma be switching sizes randomly that is if only he is using these bodies as mere creations of his power.

That's cool and stuff, but what suggests that there is any more Shuma than what we saw in those scans, I kinda doubt that he's actually as supreme as you thinl

I don't remember anything about him ever being 10 times the size of Earth. And that it was Shuma in his home dimension, i kinda feel that it was Shuma at max power. That being said, size is irrelevant to non-corporeals, and i see fewer feats for Shuma

#19 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@TheSecondOpinion said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Evil Incarnate: That was ool, and I'll admit Shuma's a pretty bad dude, but i don't really see anything to put him above Celestials.

@TheSecondOpinion: In his own Dimension Shuma was only about the size of a mountain (Exitar is about 2/3rds as tall as the world's largest mountain, so there's that)

That wasn't Shuma... You have to read the entire arc to understand. Maybe CortSether is better at explaining it. But that wasn't Shuma entire self. It was an essence of his many angles. So either Dr. Strange grew as tall as a few hundred trillion light years in size or Shuma condensed itself into the size of a mountain. You also have to remember at that time. Shuma was at one point 10 times larger than Earth. So why would Shuma be switching sizes randomly that is if only he is using these bodies as mere creations of his power.

That's cool and stuff, but what suggests that there is any more Shuma than what we saw in those scans, I kinda doubt that he's actually as supreme as you thinl

I don't remember anything about him ever being 10 times the size of Earth. And that it was Shuma in his home dimension, i kinda feel that it was Shuma at max power. That being said, size is irrelevant to non-corporeals, and i see fewer feats for Shuma

That's were I'm getting at. Shuma's dimension is huge! It's made up of thousands of universes so it is kind of difficult for an artist to illustrate this in action with a man that is only 6 feet tall. So in order to get passed this concept, an artist would have to draw abstractly using representative manifestation forms. Dormammu, Shuma-Gorath, Cyttorak, Zom, Slorioth, Nebulus, Beyonder all have manifestation forms that they can create how ever they like.

Beyonder is as big as 100,000,000,000,000,000 times our universe! If you read Secret War, Beyonder was so big, that the Multiverse looked like a small dot on the page!

But instead of being 100,000,000,000,000,000 larger than the multiverse, he needed some way to interact with our space, so what does he do? He created a manifested human body for himself....

The same thing goes for Shuma, Cyttorak, and all those other extradimension things in the Omniverse.

#20 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

I don't remember anything about him ever being 10 times the size of Earth. And that it was Shuma in his home dimension, i kinda feel that it was Shuma at max power. That being said, size is irrelevant to non-corporeals, and i see fewer feats for Shuma

#21 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSecondOpinion said:

Beyonder is as big as 100,000,000,000,000,000 times our universe! If you read Secret War, Beyonder was so big, that the Multiverse looked like a small dot on the page!

That does not happen in Secret Wars. at all. ever.

@TheSecondOpinion: Your confusing dimensions and universe, dimensions are things like Asgard and Mephisto's Hell. Universes are the sums of everything in in the Cosmos and all of the dimensions connected to them. Shuma is smaller than his Kingdom, which just means he's not entirely fused with his domain, he's not a principality like Cytorrak and the Crimson Cosmos, he's more like Mephisto, just more powerful in his home, not entirely fused.

#22 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSecondOpinion: I'm pretty sure he's just in the foreground.

#23 Posted by Bo88gdan (4374 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyttorak solos effortless Curbstomp

#24 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@TheSecondOpinion said:

Beyonder is as big as 100,000,000,000,000,000 times our universe! If you read Secret War, Beyonder was so big, that the Multiverse looked like a small dot on the page!

That does not happen in Secret Wars. at all. ever.

@TheSecondOpinion: Your confusing dimensions and universe, dimensions are things like Asgard and Mephisto's Hell. Universes are the sums of everything in in the Cosmos and all of the dimensions connected to them. Shuma is smaller than his Kingdom, which just means he's not entirely fused with his domain, he's not a principality like Cytorrak and the Crimson Cosmos, he's more like Mephisto, just more powerful in his home, not entirely fused.

Nope. Alot of people here confuse living realms with spatial dimension. Our universe is a 3rd Dimensional plane..... There are other planes of existence much grander than our 3-D universe....

The Living Tribunal for example, "lives" in the 16th dimensional Universe.

Spatial Dimension.

Yes, that does happen in Secret War. You were probably not born yet to remember the arc plus its Cross-Overs. But there are several times from different issues, where Beyonder tells his origin and you would see his entirity as a white page and the black dot would be the space we call a universe.

#25 Posted by BigCimmerian (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@TheSecondOpinion said:

Beyonder is as big as 100,000,000,000,000,000 times our universe! If you read Secret War, Beyonder was so big, that the Multiverse looked like a small dot on the page!

That does not happen in Secret Wars. at all. ever.

@TheSecondOpinion: Your confusing dimensions and universe, dimensions are things like Asgard and Mephisto's Hell. Universes are the sums of everything in in the Cosmos and all of the dimensions connected to them. Shuma is smaller than his Kingdom, which just means he's not entirely fused with his domain, he's not a principality like Cytorrak and the Crimson Cosmos, he's more like Mephisto, just more powerful in his home, not entirely fused.

But Shuma is omnipresent in his dimension.

#26 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSecondOpinion: I'm talkinga bout in terms of Marvel comics, a dimension refers to something connecting to a cosmos as part of a universe, yes in real life its something different, but in real life there aren't people made of space.

And yes, I've read Secret war, first when i was 6 and several times since then, we never see the Beyonder as anything but a white light and a white tear in pace, never anything showing his full Form in comparison to the universe

#27 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@BigCimmerian: that may or may not be true, but Dr Strange beat him there, so he's clearly not omnipotent.

#28 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@TheSecondOpinion: I'm talkinga bout in terms of Marvel comics, a dimension refers to something connecting to a cosmos as part of a universe, yes in real life its something different, but in real life there aren't people made of space.

And yes, I've read Secret war, first when i was 6 and several times since then, we never see the Beyonder as anything but a white light and a white tear in pace, never anything showing his full Form in comparison to the universe

Because his full form is not physical.... Here, maybe this will help.

Don't forget the cross-overs. In SW1, the arc doesn't show Beyonder as anything, but after Klaw aided Beyonder against Doom, Beyonder made a physical form of the one you see him as now.A few years later SW2 is when Beyonder decided to keep that body, but the body is just a representation so that he can interact with 3-D space.

Marvel Comics write about Spatial Dimensions.... This is just not our real world science. It is also applied in Marvel and you can thank Stan Lee for that.

<---- reads The 16th Dimension

Marvel Continuity Rules:

  • Out of every Dimension can exist multiple "realms"

Example:

  • 3th Dimension exist the Realm of Asgard and the Realm of Olympus and the realm of Avalon
  • 6th Dimension exist the Realm of the Astral Plane, Heaven and Hell, the Spirits
  • 10th Dimension exist the Realm of Space-Time Eternity and Infinity
  • 16th Dimension exist the realm of Manifestation, the realm of the Living Tribunal (In Marvel, the 16th Dimension is capable of over-viewing the entire multiverse as a flat plane)
  • Then you have those extradimesions that go even beyond that point where the Living Tribunal looks 2-D to them, like the Beyonder, Cyttorak, Shuma-Gorath, Vishanti, Trinity of Ashes, Trion, Faltine etc.
#29 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio
#30 Posted by BigCimmerian (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@BigCimmerian: that may or may not be true, but Dr Strange beat him there, so he's clearly not omnipotent.

I didn't say he is omnipotent.

#31 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

There's no one in the Marvel continuity that is Omnipotent without having both aspects of Omniscience AND Omnipresence.

For example:

  • The Watchers are not Omnipresent to the multiverse... However, Thanos with the HOTU was.
  • The Watchers are not Omniscient to the multiverse... However, Agamotto is through the entire Omniverse.

You have to have both to be Omnipotent. There is a thread here called Omnipotent vs Omniscience. I will find it and bump it up.

#32 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSecondOpinion said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@TheSecondOpinion: I'm talkinga bout in terms of Marvel comics, a dimension refers to something connecting to a cosmos as part of a universe, yes in real life its something different, but in real life there aren't people made of space.

And yes, I've read Secret war, first when i was 6 and several times since then, we never see the Beyonder as anything but a white light and a white tear in pace, never anything showing his full Form in comparison to the universe

Because his full form is not physical.... Here, maybe this will help.

Don't forget the cross-overs. In SW1, the arc doesn't show Beyonder as anything, but after Klaw aided Beyonder against Doom, Beyonder made a physical form of the one you see him as now.A few years later SW2 is when Beyonder decided to keep that body, but the body is just a representation so that he can interact with 3-D space.

Marvel Comics write about Spatial Dimensions.... This is just not our real world science. It is also applied in Marvel and you can thank Stan Lee for that.

Yes, he's the size of ONE universe, hardly the 100,000,000,000,000,000 you claimed a couple posts ago, your engagingin hyperbole and calling it fact, and yeah, that's not from secret wars My friend, Its from a tie-in with the sequel so all those condescending remarks about me not remembering the event sound pretty silly now

@TheSecondOpinion said:

Example:

  • 3th Dimension exist the Realm of Asgard and the Realm of Olympus and the realm of Avalon
  • 6th Dimension exist the Realm of the Astral Plane, Heaven and Hell, the Spirits
  • 10th Dimension exist the Realm of Space-Time Eternity and Infinity
  • 16th Dimension exist the realm of Manifestation, the realm of the Living Tribunal (In Marvel, the 16th Dimension is capable of over-viewing the entire multiverse as a flat plane)
  • Then you have those extradimesions that go even beyond that point where the Living Tribunal looks 2-D to them, like the Beyonder, Cyttorak, Shuma-Gorath, Vishanti, Trinity of Ashes, Trion, Faltine etc.

Flatline makes the living Tribunal look 2-dimensional, i guess that's why Eternity (who is constantly mentioned as LT's inferior) always defeats Dormammu in head-to-head fights, no seriously

Sorry if I'm being presumptuous, but i thought we were debating about actual characters from the comics and not hypothetical Omniversal manifistations fanwanked into existence on forums

#33 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@TheSecondOpinion said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@TheSecondOpinion: I'm talkinga bout in terms of Marvel comics, a dimension refers to something connecting to a cosmos as part of a universe, yes in real life its something different, but in real life there aren't people made of space.

And yes, I've read Secret war, first when i was 6 and several times since then, we never see the Beyonder as anything but a white light and a white tear in pace, never anything showing his full Form in comparison to the universe

Because his full form is not physical.... Here, maybe this will help.

Don't forget the cross-overs. In SW1, the arc doesn't show Beyonder as anything, but after Klaw aided Beyonder against Doom, Beyonder made a physical form of the one you see him as now.A few years later SW2 is when Beyonder decided to keep that body, but the body is just a representation so that he can interact with 3-D space.

Marvel Comics write about Spatial Dimensions.... This is just not our real world science. It is also applied in Marvel and you can thank Stan Lee for that.

Yes, he's the size of ONE universe, hardly the 100,000,000,000,000,000 you claimed a couple posts ago, your engagingin hyperbole and calling it fact, and yeah, that's not from secret wars My friend, Its from a tie-in with the sequel so all those condescending remarks about me not remembering the event sound pretty silly now

@TheSecondOpinion said:

Example:

  • 3th Dimension exist the Realm of Asgard and the Realm of Olympus and the realm of Avalon
  • 6th Dimension exist the Realm of the Astral Plane, Heaven and Hell, the Spirits
  • 10th Dimension exist the Realm of Space-Time Eternity and Infinity
  • 16th Dimension exist the realm of Manifestation, the realm of the Living Tribunal (In Marvel, the 16th Dimension is capable of over-viewing the entire multiverse as a flat plane)
  • Then you have those extradimesions that go even beyond that point where the Living Tribunal looks 2-D to them, like the Beyonder, Cyttorak, Shuma-Gorath, Vishanti, Trinity of Ashes, Trion, Faltine etc.

Flatline makes the living Tribunal look 2-dimensional, i guess that's why Eternity (who is constantly mentioned as LT's inferior) always defeats Dormammu in head-to-head fights, no seriously

Sorry if I'm being presumptuous, but i thought we were debating about actual characters from the comics and not hypothetical Omniversal manifistations fanwanked into existence on forums

Good that you brought that up, now if you could, please post up the next page, or I think it was 2 pages. You will see Eternity unconscious, and Umar and Dormammu are standing right next to it..... FLAT..... 2-D....

Umar also says this,

"Yuck! Look at this goo.... (refering Eternity's body as a piece of Goo)... Why spend your efforts playing with it?"

Dormammu: "Sister, if I take over the consciousness of Eternity, I will be able to manipulate all time."

Umar: "What about the Dark Dimension?"

Dormammu: "You wish not dive in with me?"

Umar: "No, I will not lower myself to be any part of this goo..."

Dormammu, "Very well, I will leave the Dark Dimension to you, while I shape the Multiverse into my own image!"

*Dormammu dives into Eternity swimming inside it*

Umar, "That idiot...." (meaning while Dormammu in inside Eternty, she is left with the much larger portion of the Splinter Realm.... The Dark Dimension!)

#34 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSecondOpinion: Scans?

#35 Posted by BigCimmerian (7562 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSecondOpinion said:

There's no one in the Marvel continuity that is Omnipotent without having both aspects of Omniscience AND Omnipresence.

For example:

  • The Watchers are not Omnipresent to the multiverse... However, Thanos with the HOTU was.
  • The Watchers are not Omniscient to the multiverse... However, Agamotto is through the entire Omniverse.

You have to have both to be Omnipotent. There is a thread here called Omnipotent vs Omniscience. I will find it and bump it up.

I know, I just said he is nigh omnipotent.

#36 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@TheSecondOpinion: Scans?

Yes, the scans. Post up the other 3 pages that went with the one you posted. You posted one of them, but I'm asking you to post up the others.

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@TheSecondOpinion said:

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@TheSecondOpinion: I'm talkinga bout in terms of Marvel comics, a dimension refers to something connecting to a cosmos as part of a universe, yes in real life its something different, but in real life there aren't people made of space.

And yes, I've read Secret war, first when i was 6 and several times since then, we never see the Beyonder as anything but a white light and a white tear in pace, never anything showing his full Form in comparison to the universe

Because his full form is not physical.... Here, maybe this will help.

Don't forget the cross-overs. In SW1, the arc doesn't show Beyonder as anything, but after Klaw aided Beyonder against Doom, Beyonder made a physical form of the one you see him as now.A few years later SW2 is when Beyonder decided to keep that body, but the body is just a representation so that he can interact with 3-D space.

Marvel Comics write about Spatial Dimensions.... This is just not our real world science. It is also applied in Marvel and you can thank Stan Lee for that.

Yes, he's the size of ONE universe, hardly the 100,000,000,000,000,000 you claimed a couple posts ago, your engagingin hyperbole and calling it fact, and yeah, that's not from secret wars My friend, Its from a tie-in with the sequel so all those condescending remarks about me not remembering the event sound pretty silly now

"One universe" is an understatement though, because as Beyonder said, "See that white blankness? That is me!! I don't have a physical body yet!"

The entire "white" area,,,,,,, Is Beyonder.

#37 Posted by Setherial (209 posts) - - Show Bio

@Betatesthighlander1 said:

@BigCimmerian: that may or may not be true, but Dr Strange beat him there, so he's clearly not omnipotent.

Gods with their own domain are omnipotent, but that omnipotence can be overridden by someone with greater omnipotence or of a greater level of infinity. Doctor Strange had to merge with infinite energy (Arioch) of a dimension in addition to dark energy from an Old One (Ghaszaszh Nyirh) and magical energy from a woman with greater mystic strength than Strange's rival, Mordo, all in order to content with Shuma-Gorath. Even then he could only stalemate Shuma until Shuma instigated Strange to start merging with Shuma's power. Shuma is virtually omnipotent in his realm and it's supported in his official OHOTMU bio.

"In his native dimension, Shuma-Gorath is virtually omnipotent..."

#38 Posted by ShootingNova (13051 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSecondOpinion: What is size doing here? Size has absolutely no role in this.

#39 Posted by ShootingNova (13051 posts) - - Show Bio

@Setherial said:

"In his native dimension, Shuma-Gorath is virtually omnipotent..."

Unfortunately, this appears to be somewhat hyperbole. Shuma-Gorath failed to simply blink Strange-Arioch out of existence, so he isn't omnipotent.

#40 Posted by Setherial (209 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Setherial said:

"In his native dimension, Shuma-Gorath is virtually omnipotent..."

Unfortunately, this appears to be somewhat hyperbole. Shuma-Gorath failed to simply blink Strange-Arioch out of existence, so he isn't omnipotent.

Which is why I said nigh-omnipotence can be overridden when encountered by another nigh-omnipotent energy that is of a higher level. Strange already held infinite power within himself when encountering Shuma and was also nigh-omnipotent at that point. I guess we can cross the Living Tribunal off the omnipotent list as well since he failed to simply blink Nebulos out of existence when confronting him on Planets Perilous.

#41 Posted by cosmic_reign (282 posts) - - Show Bio

Omnipotent in one's dimension/realm/universe is a great feat, BUT is obsolete if that respective realm can be destroyed. I think Celestials have showed that they can contain/destroy entire universes.

#42 Posted by ShootingNova (13051 posts) - - Show Bio

@Setherial: Your post was about omnipotence, not "nigh-omnipotence". Unless you aren't referring to Essential Omnipotence, or "Absolute" Omnipotence, that is.

#43 Posted by Setherial (209 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Setherial: Your post was about omnipotence, not "nigh-omnipotence". Unless you aren't referring to Essential Omnipotence, or "Absolute" Omnipotence, that is.

His bio says 'virtually omnipotent' and virtually is like saying 'apparently but not really', so I wouldn't say that Shuma's bio is hyperbole.

#44 Posted by ShootingNova (13051 posts) - - Show Bio

@Setherial: Virtually means pretty much. It can be "exactly", but it doesn't have to.

#45 Posted by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@ShootingNova said:

@Setherial said:

"In his native dimension, Shuma-Gorath is virtually omnipotent..."

Unfortunately, this appears to be somewhat hyperbole. Shuma-Gorath failed to simply blink Strange-Arioch out of existence, so he isn't omnipotent.

It's not Hyperbole, it's CIS. Shuma allowed Strange to do as he would to defeat Shuma, because of Shuma's arrogance. You know how Strange beat him, right? Dr. Strange had to become Shuma-Gorath itself in order to beat it. It's not hyperbole. It was Shuma's CIS roll with a mix of Dr. Strange's PIS.

#46 Edited by TheSecondOpinion (614 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_reign said:

Omnipotent in one's dimension/realm/universe is a great feat, BUT is obsolete if that respective realm can be destroyed. I think Celestials have showed that they can contain/destroy entire universes.

Celestials can't contain a universe unless all of them are combined move and rearrange the celestial objects inside the universe. Are you confusing the Celestials to the Infinites? The Infinites have the ability to single-handedly contain the universe but the Infinities just like the Celestials, their energy can be sacrificed... Cyttorak's or Shuma's energies can't be sacrificed since their energy is eternal and infinite.

@Setherial said:

@ShootingNova said:

@Setherial: Your post was about omnipotence, not "nigh-omnipotence". Unless you aren't referring to Essential Omnipotence, or "Absolute" Omnipotence, that is.

His bio says 'virtually omnipotent' and virtually is like saying 'apparently but not really', so I wouldn't say that Shuma's bio is hyperbole.

It's Neigh-Omnipotent because Shuma-Gorath is not omniscient like agamotto. Since Shuma lacks some knowledge, that makes him not Omnipotent, but he still has the power of the infinites since he is basically the leach of all realities. I can just imagine a Celestial's power being siphoned instantly being near the vicinity of Shuma-Gorath's essence.

#47 Posted by Setherial (209 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSecondOpinion said:

@cosmic_reign said:

Omnipotent in one's dimension/realm/universe is a great feat, BUT is obsolete if that respective realm can be destroyed. I think Celestials have showed that they can contain/destroy entire universes.

Celestials can't contain a universe unless all of them are combined move and rearrange the celestial objects inside the universe. Are you confusing the Celestials to the Infinites? The Infinites have the ability to single-handedly contain the universe but the Infinities just like the Celestials, their energy can be sacrificed... Cyttorak's or Shuma's energies can't be sacrificed since their energy is eternal and infinite.

@Setherial said:

@ShootingNova said:

@Setherial: Your post was about omnipotence, not "nigh-omnipotence". Unless you aren't referring to Essential Omnipotence, or "Absolute" Omnipotence, that is.

His bio says 'virtually omnipotent' and virtually is like saying 'apparently but not really', so I wouldn't say that Shuma's bio is hyperbole.

It's Neigh-Omnipotent because Shuma-Gorath is not omniscient like agamotto. Since Shuma lacks some knowledge, that makes him not Omnipotent, but he still has the power of the infinites since he is basically the leach of all realities. I can just imagine a Celestial's power being siphoned instantly being near the vicinity of Shuma-Gorath's essence.

Shuma's still pretty damn smart. I mean he quoted Nietzsche when battling Strange. He's been spying on Earth for quite a while lol.

I'd say that most of the Celestials are no match for a properly written Shuma-Gorath. Thanos Imperative really solidifies that considering Shuma helped empower the Galactus Engine that was barreling through Celestials like cake.

#48 Posted by cosmic_reign (282 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheSecondOpinion said:

@cosmic_reign said:

Omnipotent in one's dimension/realm/universe is a great feat, BUT is obsolete if that respective realm can be destroyed. I think Celestials have showed that they can contain/destroy entire universes.

Celestials can't contain a universe unless all of them are combined move and rearrange the celestial objects inside the universe. Are you confusing the Celestials to the Infinites? The Infinites have the ability to single-handedly contain the universe but the Infinities just like the Celestials, their energy can be sacrificed... Cyttorak's or Shuma's energies can't be sacrificed since their energy is eternal and infinite.

@Setherial said:

@ShootingNova said:

@Setherial: Your post was about omnipotence, not "nigh-omnipotence". Unless you aren't referring to Essential Omnipotence, or "Absolute" Omnipotence, that is.

His bio says 'virtually omnipotent' and virtually is like saying 'apparently but not really', so I wouldn't say that Shuma's bio is hyperbole.

It's Neigh-Omnipotent because Shuma-Gorath is not omniscient like agamotto. Since Shuma lacks some knowledge, that makes him not Omnipotent, but he still has the power of the infinites since he is basically the leach of all realities. I can just imagine a Celestial's power being siphoned instantly being near the vicinity of Shuma-Gorath's essence.

Im sure they can...In Heroes Reborn Ashema contained an entire universe within her to save it from sure distruction.

#49 Posted by cosmic_reign (282 posts) - - Show Bio

@Setherial said:

@TheSecondOpinion said:

@cosmic_reign said:

Omnipotent in one's dimension/realm/universe is a great feat, BUT is obsolete if that respective realm can be destroyed. I think Celestials have showed that they can contain/destroy entire universes.

Celestials can't contain a universe unless all of them are combined move and rearrange the celestial objects inside the universe. Are you confusing the Celestials to the Infinites? The Infinites have the ability to single-handedly contain the universe but the Infinities just like the Celestials, their energy can be sacrificed... Cyttorak's or Shuma's energies can't be sacrificed since their energy is eternal and infinite.

@Setherial said:

@ShootingNova said:

@Setherial: Your post was about omnipotence, not "nigh-omnipotence". Unless you aren't referring to Essential Omnipotence, or "Absolute" Omnipotence, that is.

His bio says 'virtually omnipotent' and virtually is like saying 'apparently but not really', so I wouldn't say that Shuma's bio is hyperbole.

It's Neigh-Omnipotent because Shuma-Gorath is not omniscient like agamotto. Since Shuma lacks some knowledge, that makes him not Omnipotent, but he still has the power of the infinites since he is basically the leach of all realities. I can just imagine a Celestial's power being siphoned instantly being near the vicinity of Shuma-Gorath's essence.

Shuma's still pretty damn smart. I mean he quoted Nietzsche when battling Strange. He's been spying on Earth for quite a while lol.

I'd say that most of the Celestials are no match for a properly written Shuma-Gorath. Thanos Imperative really solidifies that considering Shuma helped empower the Galactus Engine that was barreling through Celestials like cake.

IMO i think Marvel is implicating that Galactus has UNLIMITED POTENTIAL when amped by others. Kinda explains why SG used the Galactus engine in an attempt to conquer all. Or why the Black Celestial used him to conquer the universe. Or why Franklin Richards used him to save the universe. No doubt SG is powerful but i think he may not been powerful enough to pull off his scheme on his own. Food for thought.

#50 Posted by Setherial (209 posts) - - Show Bio

@cosmic_reign said:

@Setherial said:

@TheSecondOpinion said:

@cosmic_reign said:

Omnipotent in one's dimension/realm/universe is a great feat, BUT is obsolete if that respective realm can be destroyed. I think Celestials have showed that they can contain/destroy entire universes.

Celestials can't contain a universe unless all of them are combined move and rearrange the celestial objects inside the universe. Are you confusing the Celestials to the Infinites? The Infinites have the ability to single-handedly contain the universe but the Infinities just like the Celestials, their energy can be sacrificed... Cyttorak's or Shuma's energies can't be sacrificed since their energy is eternal and infinite.

@Setherial said:

@ShootingNova said:

@Setherial: Your post was about omnipotence, not "nigh-omnipotence". Unless you aren't referring to Essential Omnipotence, or "Absolute" Omnipotence, that is.

His bio says 'virtually omnipotent' and virtually is like saying 'apparently but not really', so I wouldn't say that Shuma's bio is hyperbole.

It's Neigh-Omnipotent because Shuma-Gorath is not omniscient like agamotto. Since Shuma lacks some knowledge, that makes him not Omnipotent, but he still has the power of the infinites since he is basically the leach of all realities. I can just imagine a Celestial's power being siphoned instantly being near the vicinity of Shuma-Gorath's essence.

Shuma's still pretty damn smart. I mean he quoted Nietzsche when battling Strange. He's been spying on Earth for quite a while lol.

I'd say that most of the Celestials are no match for a properly written Shuma-Gorath. Thanos Imperative really solidifies that considering Shuma helped empower the Galactus Engine that was barreling through Celestials like cake.

IMO i think Marvel is implicating that Galactus has UNLIMITED POTENTIAL when amped by others. Kinda explains why SG used the Galactus engine in an attempt to conquer all. Or why the Black Celestial used him to conquer the universe. Or why Franklin Richards used him to save the universe. No doubt SG is powerful but i think he may not been powerful enough to pull off his scheme on his own. Food for thought.

Galactus can do a lot when amped. But Shuma-Gorath can also drain magical and non-magical energy without limit, meaning there's no actual limit to the amps that Shuma can get. Plus, at least in Thanos Imperative, the Kree detected "larger, more powerful entities" than the Galactus Engine about to come through the fault. Considering Shuma, Kthl, Yot-Soter, and Nyerlathortech were the four Old Ones summoned during the ritual to kill Death (the most important task), it's clear that those four were the most powerful of the MAO's (and Shuma is the only MAO with any background of feats), and thus those four were more powerful than the Galactus Engine. Shuma's like the Big G of magic, imo. His powerful fluctuates based on where he's at and what he's consumed.