• 61 results
  • 1
  • 2
#1 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio
  • Random Encounter
  • No Prep
  • Death or KO
  • Standard Gear
  • Start 100 feet away on the building roof tops.
  • Battle at Night.
#2 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Posted by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#4 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw:

You go first mate. I like to analyze then attack :)

Ok then. I will start how I start any Wolf Man vs Spider Man like guy here. This is a battle of a Stronger Sabertooth like character vs Spider character.

To open this up with some facts of Wolf Man. Astounding Wolf Man is base in the Invincible universe. He is a a average man bitten by the most powerful Werewolf on the planet. In turn he becomes of the powerful Werewolf bloodline called the Elder Brood. He now leads the Werewolfs on earth as a military commando force for Cecil. He is the Astounding Wolf Man.

Astounding Wolf Man power comes from his transformation into a Werewolf at night. During the Full Moon he is unfortunately out of control. Any other night he retains his senses and personality. As a Elder brood he carries the powers of Super Strength, Speed, Durability, and Healing. His costume also stores Moonlight to allow 2 hours of fighting in the day.

That opener said Wolf man is like Sabertooth on steroids. He is extremely durable, fast, has a insane Healing Ability, and Strength in the more 10 ton range. Wolf Man is the strongest Werewolf on the planet. He is naturally stronger than any other due to being Elder Brood, and was train to match the Elder himself in stats to take over the Werewolf packs. Forming what is now the Wolf Corps.

1) Wolf Man punches through a Block Work Concrete wall.

2) The Strength of the Elder smashes apart large Pine Trees with ease. That is a near 10 ton feet of force to accomplish that. The Elder Strength and Speed was stated to be equal to Wolf Man at the end of their training together. Something Elder wanted because he needed Wolf Man so become the superior to Elder can finally died.

3) Strength of the Elder again shown, cratering the earth, not that it affects Wolf Man since he was train by Elder to be his equal and take over the Werewolves. The crater is something that can be calculated in near 20 ton range.

4-5) These Goo prisons were design to trap even super human strength people in the average 20 ton range. Most Invincible characters are in 20 ton range by Bios. Wolf Man could not break out of it until Zecharia turn into mist form to keep from being crushed. Then Wolf Man powered out of it.

6) Wolf Man strength was enough to rip and crush steel of Constructs suit, which withstood Kid Thor's hammer with no problems!

7) Wolf Man snaps this Werewolfs neck with a open palm, showing his insane strength over beings with meta human strength and durability.

Overall averaging the feats out and comparisons I say he is comfortable 10 toner. We do know he was equaled to the Elder as the Elder needed Wolf Man to be his equal or superior to claim the Werewolf Tribes and we see Wolf Man tangling with 20-30 toners with no problem. Most of Robert Kirkman's Invincible characters are 20-30 toners in strength. Now how can the Elder feats be used as evidence? Easy enough.

As read the Werewolves who new of his Elder blood that flowed in his vains that Wolf Man would only get insane stronger. He was already Stronger and Durable enough to take a whole pack of Werewolves on. Werewolves with this kind of strength already.

The Average werewolf is already a easy 2-3 toner in strength. Yet a weaker Wolf Man easy snaps their necks with a palm thrust, and he was only going to get stronger becuase of the Elder Brood bloodline in him. Then the Wolf Man train with the Elder for months so he can be as strong as the Elder. The Elder needed Wolf Man as a equal (or superior) so he can die in a honorable fight. He was training Wolf Man to beat him in all areas.

1-3) First Encounter

4-5) Final Training

As read during their months training, Wolf Man complain Elder holding back when he wasn't at the end. That is when the Elder knew Wolf Man was near equals right then.

Also here Elder says at one point "You possess a fraction of my power", at one point in the battle. this can easily be translated to when Wolf man first trained or turned as we seen Wolf Man feats was already matching Elder in their training and other battles. All the Werewolves said the same thing when first meeting Wolf Man. It must be past context simply because he had barely the stats of Elder in comic #3 yet was near equals by comic #12. That makes no sense to mean it present tense.

With that out of the way, Wolf Man is insane strong. Is Kaine stronger? Well yeah, 20 toner, but Kaine is not easily overpowering Wolf Man anymore than he did against say these two way weaker Werewolves.

These two Marvel universe Werewolves are in now way stronger than Marvel strongest Werewolf, Werewolf by Night. A character I know alot about.

http://www.comicvine.com/werewolf-by-night/4005-4984/forums/werewolf-by-night-respect-thread-1502221/#0

The point is Kaine was having a hard time with weaker Werewolves that Wolf Man manhandles by the Dozens.

Wolf Man takes out Thrill Kill with major style and showing of brutal skill on this low meta human foe. Then Wolf Man manhandles Werewolves that jump him right afterword.

Wolf Man battles the Werewolves again, he holds back but still manages to kill one of them with a simple move. The damage he takes is a great example of his natural durability. This was still a very early Wolf Man before his major training by Zechariah and the Elder.

Now I know the point of the Other will be brought up. Kaine as the Other decimate the Werewof couple, but would the Other decimate Wolf man who also would decimate the weak Werewolf couple? I do not think so. Also how often does Kaine allow the Other to take over? Where was the Other during his fight with Carnage?

Your Move.

#5 Posted by MonsterStomp (18244 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll be watching this.

#6 Edited by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw:

That opener said Wolf man is like Sabertooth on steroids. He is extremely durable, fast, has a insane Healing Ability, and Strength in the more 10 ton range.

With that out of the way, Wolf Man is insane strong. Is Kaine stronger? Well yeah, 20 toner, but Kaine is not easily overpowering Wolf Man anymore than he did against say these two way weaker Werewolves.

  • Wolf Man is indeed strong, but Kaine is stronger like you said. And Kaine isn't a 20 tonner, he is in the 30 tonner level when you break down his feats.

Here, Kaine completely floors Spock (who is about a 20-25 tonner himself) with one hit. Spock notes that he can barely focus after the hot and that Kaine is stronger than him.

Here, Kaine is able to break out of the hold of Agent Venom (who is a 30+ tonner himself) who had just "Vulked out", and rips the jaw off of a massive amobe.

Shown here, Kaine easily rips through chains designed specifically to hold Peter Parker (a 25 tonner) and completely flabbergasts Jackal with his strength.

Kaine is even strong enough to nonchalantly destroy a car just by casually landing on it.

So Kaine isn't just a little strong than Wolf Man, he's pushing about a 20 ton advantage in strength here.

The point is Kaine was having a hard time with weaker Werewolves that Wolf Man manhandles by the Dozens.

  • Saying that because Kaine struggles with slightly weaker werewolves is pretty much lowballing without looking at the context of the situation. For one, Kaine wasn't completely in the game because he focusing on Aracely's safety, and while he did struggle, those werewolves were indeed dangerous and he did kill them all once he was able to focus and get his head in the game while he reverted to the Other. Kaine has also regularly held his own against people who outclass Wolf Man in strength like Spock, Carnage, Agent Venom, etc. He can keep up Wolf Man's physicals.

Now I know the point of the Other will be brought up. Kaine as the Other decimate the Werewof couple, but would the Other decimate Wolf man who also would decimate the weak Werewolf couple? I do not think so. Also how often does Kaine allow the Other to take over? Where was the Other during his fight with Carnage?

  • Kaine would be a massive challenge for Wolf Man if he reverted to his Other state. His already incredible 30 ton strength would be amped as would the rest of his physicals, and the loose morals Kaine keeps during a fight are completely dropped as he becomes utterly bloodlusted. As for when he's lapsed into the Other, Kaine can consciously choose when and where he can let the Other, what he calls "the monster in his head" take control of him though at times the Other's influence has proven to be powerful enough to take control over Kaine. An example of Kaine utilizing the Other in a fight is shown here:

The Other's potent power is illustrated perfectly here. Kaine went from having somewhat of a challenge with Wolverine, to being so fast and strong that he was able to close on Logan and drop him in one move. I don't see things faring that much better for Wolf Man if Kaine does the same.

Overall, Kaine is already holding a very noticeable physicals advantage in this fight, and we haven't even gotten to his own great durability and stealh suit.

Your turn mate.

Online
#7 Posted by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp:

Got to give you thanks again Stomp for showing me how to correctly quote someone. Really helpful in making my post and points orderly!

Online
#8 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: Well I have to say.... if Kaine is a 30 toner by those feats, then Wolf man may just be a 20 toner lol.

This Werewolf does the same damage if not more impressive than what Khain does to SpOck.

The Elder who Wolf Man was suppose to be equals with (if not his superior in the end) was making super craters with his strength on Wolf Man here. Way more than SpOck treatment.

Here Wolf man also does the Car Smash thing that Kainedid while showing off great reaction and agility as well.

This is important here. The Immortal is a 25+ toner in his official written bio.

Yet he cannot break free of his goo prison. Wolf Man however does so.

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek and I argued over the strength of Wolf Man. He said it should be around 20+ tons. I agree with him the more I research it and compare Kains and Spider Man strength feats.

Your were right YNCG. :) May look bad for debate purpose, but I will no longer put out info Wolf Man is 10 toner, he should be around 20 toner. Especially after his fight with Reanimen.

Reanimen are 20+ toners as well. Yet Wolf man rips through them and breaks them to bits and pieces with his attacks.

A feat indeed to have the strength to tear whole chunks out of them with every swing.

#9 Posted by MonsterStomp (18244 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp:

Got to give you thanks again Stomp for showing me how to correctly quote someone. Really helpful in making my post and points orderly!

Most welcome :D

Good debating at the moment guys.

#10 Edited by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw:

Well I have to say.... if Kaine is a 30 toner by those feats, then Wolf man may just be a 20 toner lol.

That's all good, but Kaine is still holding about a 10+ ton strength advantage here. He has regularly completely manhandled 25+ tonners like Spock and put up incredible performances against class 30+ people like Agent Venom and Carnage, and ripped through chains designed to hold down a 25 tonner like Spider-Man with pure ease.Another example of Kaine's strength is shown here:

Right havibg blown out of the chains designed specifically to hold down Peter Parker, Kaine rips takes on and beats most of Jackal's mutated Spiders while taking on Jackal himself.

No one is denying that Wolf Man has formidable strength, but Kaine is just better than him strength wise by a comfortable margin. Overall, Kaine superior physicals alone will give Wolf Man hell in this fight.

Online
#11 Edited by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#12 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@indiecomicsftw:

Well I have to say.... if Kaine is a 30 toner by those feats, then Wolf man may just be a 20 toner lol.

That's all good, but Kaine is still holding about a 10+ ton strength advantage here. He has regularly completely manhandled 25+ tonners like Spock and put up incredible performances against class 30+ people like Agent Venom and Carnage, and ripped through chains designed to hold down a 25 tonner like Spider-Man with pure ease.Another example of Kaine's strength is shown here:

Right havibg blown out of the chains designed specifically to hold down Peter Parker, Kaine rips takes on and beats most of Jackal's mutated Spiders while taking on Jackal himself.

No one is denying that Wolf Man has formidable strength, but Kaine is just better than him strength wise by a comfortable margin. Overall, Kaine superior physicals alone will give Wolf Man hell in this fight.

True Kaine should still be 10 more tons stronger, however Wolf Man should be able to hack it base on feats. The reason Wolf Man is superior to Kaine period is because of his Durability. Wolf Man is insanely durable with the ability to feel no pain pretty much.

1-2) The first Scan shows how sharp Zehcariah's blades are, they can cut through steel. Yet Wolf Man's muscle and bone stops the blades dead, even when they are wielded by super strength vampire.

3-4) Stab to the heart, a attack that drops Wolverine, means nothing to Wolf Man.

5) Wolf Man body tanks a full blast of steel melting heat with no injury.

6-7) Wolf Man can drop 100s of stories with no damage.

8-9) Wolf Man again falls 100s of stories on his back with no damage.

10-12) Wolf Man has a huge hole in his body, lungs, heart, guts, and yet he is taught how to keep fighting in this state.

13) Wolf Man tanks a punch from Invincible with no probs.

14) Wolf Man tanks explosive force of missiles while smashing through the walls.

15) Silver Bullets to the head? Big Deal!

Wolf Man can tank whatever Kaine throws at him. On the flip side, Kaine damage from Wolf man is only going to drag him down more and more as the battle goes on. Even if Kaine harms wolf man enough, he will just heal right away by jumping out of battle, transform to human, and then transform back.

Wolf Man has a incredible Healing power with his Transformations. Any Damage he is dealt can be undone with a transformation to human and back, however he needs breathing room for this as the transformation can make him feel weaker for the first few seconds, as well makes him vulnerable in human form. With some distance place he can easily heal all damage and get back into the fight in seconds.

1) Transform in a fight to get back in top form.

2-3) After all this damage and with a silver bullet in his arm, he heals it all with transformation.

4-6) After his first mauling from the Elder, he repairs all damage with his first transformation.

Wolf Man can use his leaping superiority to easy gain distance for a quick transformation. Since Kaine has no Spider Sense to track at first, only the calling of nearby Spiders, Wolf Man can get 2 seconds to transform and heal.

1) Easily Climbs up a Tree in split seconds.

2) Leaps onto Trains.

3) Leaps onto a speeding truck.

4) Leaps over forest.

5) Climbs solid Concrete.

6) Leaps and climbs through cityscape.

Even if Kaine tried to follow him, he could pick Kaine and throw him in the air where speed plays no role on gravity. In 2 seconds he can be back in the fight. Not that he is helpless as a human either.

Wolf Man vs Hunter in human form. After intense training with the Elder, Gary manages to blitz the meta human Hunter who has above peak human stats with his skills. Just to show how bad@$$ hunter is is his fight with Wolf Man himself.

Wolf Man vs Agent Hunter. Agent Hunter pumps Wolf Man full of Silver, then throw Wolf Man off with his Meta Human Speed and Healing. Wolf Man still ends him, but is caught of gaurd with his insane healing power.

Point is Wolf Man with 2 seconds will auto heal any and all damage, meaning Kaine with whatever damage he has already is now fighting a fresh Wolf Man.

#13 Edited by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw:

True Kaine should still be 10 more tons stronger, however Wolf Man should be able to hack it base on feats. The reason Wolf Man is superior to Kaine period is because of his Durability. Wolf Man is insanely durable with the ability to feel no pain pretty much.

  • I concede that Wolf Man has somewhat superior durability to Kaine, but Kaine's own durability and pain tolerance is no laughing matter either. His ability to take damage and go on is pretty ridiculous really.

  • As shown here, Kaine's own costume has regenerative abilities.

  • Here, Kaine takes the power of multiple Ranger's potent powers and comes out unscathed. In the other scan, Kain takes a direct stab in his chest from Carnage and just rips it out seemingly unfazed.

  • Takes multiple stabs and cuts directly from Ana Kravinoff's poisoned knife, and just shrugs them off and proceeds to attack her.

  • Tanks multiple hits from Armadillo and seems more concerned about Dillo's personal problems than his own body.

  • Runs through fire unfazed will saving a man from a fire.

  • While being severely poisoned, Kaine is able to tank a barrage of blows from Kraven the Hunter and fight evenly with him. I remind you, Kraven is strong enough to hurt Spider-Man with his blows and durable enough to tank him, and Kaine has the durability to keep up with him even while poisoned and far from 100%.

Kaine has more than enough durability to keep with Wolf Man.

Even if Kaine tried to follow him, he could pick Kaine and throw him in the air where speed plays no role on gravity. In 2 seconds he can be back in the fight.

Wolf Man can use his leaping superiority to easy gain distance for a quick transformation.

  • That would be a feasible option if Kaine wasn't faster than Wolf Man.

  • Blitzes a hoard of Assassins Guilds members, not even the street leveler speedster Harvester can react to Kaine's blinding speed. In the other two scans, Kaine is fast enough to catch an arrow, dodge some bullets, and grab a zombie and use him as a human shield.

  • Barely notices the reporter Zoe falling, and moves fast enough to catch her dodge flaming debris,, and put some well placed webbing to save other civilians.

  • Kaine casually avoid Iceman's projectiles, dodges gun fire from multiple gun men, close in on a gunman and knocks the gun out of his hand before he can fire, and dodges Uzi fire while swinging.

Kaine is fast enough to close in on Wolf Man even when he leaps.

Point is Wolf Man with 2 seconds will auto heal any and all damage, meaning Kaine with whatever damage he has already is now fighting a fresh Wolf Man.

  • Not really. If Kaine just wants to end this fight, he can just use his superior physicals to close in on Wolf Man and just do this to him:

  • Wolf Man isn't going to handle having his heart ripped out like this well.

Online
#14 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08:

I concede that Wolf Man has somewhat superior durability to Kaine, but Kaine's own durability and pain tolerance is no laughing matter either. His ability to take damage and go on is pretty ridiculous really.

No doubt, Kaine has excellent Punisher level Pain Tolerance. The difference is Kaine cannot physicaly battle on while Wolf Man Mild Regen in Wolf Form can until he transforms, then Wolf Man has a fresh start in the fight. Very hard for Kaine who's damage will accumulate the whole time to battle against.

As shown here, Kaine's own costume has regenerative abilities.

Healing suit is not all that useful if it cannot heal him :) Neat suit however.

Here, Kaine takes the power of multiple Ranger's potent powers and comes out unscathed. In the other scan, Kain takes a direct stab in his chest from Carnage and just rips it out seemingly unfazed.

Takes multiple stabs and cuts directly from Ana Kravinoff's poisoned knife, and just shrugs them off and proceeds to attack her.

Tanks multiple hits from Armadillo and seems more concerned about Dillo's personal problems than his own body.

Runs through fire unfazed will saving a man from a fire.

All good examples of Pain Tolerance, not so much on fighting on with shredded guts.

While being severely poisoned, Kaine is able to tank a barrage of blows from Kraven the Hunter and fight evenly with him. I remind you, Kraven is strong enough to hurt Spider-Man with his blows and durable enough to tank him, and Kaine has the durability to keep up with him even while poisoned and far from 100%.

Kaine has more than enough durability to keep with Wolf Man.

IIRC Kaine was holding back the whole time too, thus why Kraven had the Ben Reilly suit on. Once Kaine got over it, he decimate Kraven. Kraven is only a 2 toner by multiple bios.

That would be a feasible option if Kaine wasn't faster than Wolf Man.

Blitzes a hoard of Assassins Guilds members, not even the street leveler speedster Harvester can react to Kaine's blinding speed. In the other two scans, Kaine is fast enough to catch an arrow, dodge some bullets, and grab a zombie and use him as a human shield.

Barely notices the reporter Zoe falling, and moves fats enough to catch her dodge flaming debris,, and put some well placed webbing to save other civilians.

Kaine casually avoid Iceman's projectiles, dodges gun fire from multiple gun men, close in on a gunman and knocks the gun out of his hand before he can fire, and dodges Uzi fire while swinging.

Kaine is fast enough to close in on Wolf Man even when he leaps.

Im not so sure of that. Wolf Man is also very fast. Wolf Man as the most power Werewolf is also faster than human reactions. Even standard Werewolves have stated and shown faster than human reactions, and Wolf Man is still the faster.

1) Wolf Man pounces a speeding car, then reacts fast enough to catch the driver, then shows that wolf agility.

2) Wolf Man disappears from a whole team of peak and meta humans. He does this a few times with the Actioneers and Global Guardians.

3) Gray Wolf speed blitzes Wolf Man, Wolf Man easy reacts and counters.

4-5) Wolf Man holds back on Agent Hunter, a man with Low Meta Human Speed and Insane Healing Factor. Once he quits holding back, it was game over.

After all, if Kaine is so superior in speed, then the 2 Werewolves would never landed a blow on him. Those Werewolves in Marvel are inferior to Wolf Man by alot. Thing to note is every hit on Kaine is a devastating blow thanks to those claws.

1) Wolf Man slices and dices Invincible level beings called Reinmen. These Reinmen are made of the strongest metals on earth to battle Invincible.

2) Nearly slices the Elders head off.

3) Cuts Hunter in half.

4) Stabs through Sgt. Superior who has Meta Human Stats.

5) Cuts Zechariah's head off.

I do not see Kaine tanking one hit from those.

Not really. If Kaine just wants to end this fight, he can just use his superior physicals to close in on Wolf Man and just do this to him:

Wolf Man isn't going to handle having his heart ripped out like this well.

lol sorry that will not work at all.

Wolf Man has his Heart, Lungs, every Major Organ punched out of him by the elder. Then Elder teaches him how to rely on his Mild Healing Factor to keep going through this type of wound.

Here Wolf Man again has a whole wolf fist through his chest area, not probs, still going. Then he healed with a quick transformation.

Lets look at how Heart Stab means nothing to Wolf Man. But first a look at Zechariah the Vampire.

These are scans of Zecharaih. It is important to know just how good of a enemy he is.1-2) Zecariah has Amazing Healing Ability. 3) Super Strength. 4) Is a highly train fighter. 5) Moves too fast for Mecha Maid to lock onto with her targeting CPU.

Wolf Man vs Zechariah. Wolf Man skill and stats over power the master Vampire.

Right after his battle with Zechariah he fights his daughter Chloe who has been training with Zechariah, as well drinking his blood for added stat boost, takes on Wolf Man who totally holds back. He seems to pass out to repair his damage, only to snap back in wolf form after a few seconds of dialogue.

Speaking of proof of Speed for Wolf Man against Kaine, he does tag Zechariah alot in the comics.

Wolf Man's rematch with a improved and prepped Zechariah. Zechariah could barely escape with his life.

Truth is Wolf Man has faced Speedsters in Werewolves. Agent Hunter who has Meta Human Speed. The Elder who is the most powerful stat wise Werewolf in the world. Zechariah who is faster than a CPU can auto track. Add to this Wolf Man is heavily trained by Zechariah for many months and the Elder for 2 months. He is not some untrained newbie and has plenty of experience with his powers and skills to use them.

#15 Posted by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw:

After all, if Kaine is so superior in speed, then the 2 Werewolves would never landed a blow on him. Those Werewolves in Marvel are inferior to Wolf Man by alot.

That's lowballing of Kaine there mate. Wolf Man has been tagged by people slower than Kaine before, does that mean that Kaine is going to be untouchable for Wolf Man? I didn't think so.

Im not so sure of that. Wolf Man is also very fast. Wolf Man as the most power Werewolf is also faster than human reactions. Even standard Werewolves have stated and shown faster than human reactions, and Wolf Man is still the faster.

That's good, but Kaine is still the faster opponent here. It isn't a ridiculous speed edge to the point were Wolf Man will not even able to touch Kaine, but Kaine is still ultimately the faster combatant here. Really, his overall physicals (besides durability) all are better than that of Wolf Man's.

lol sorry that will not work at all.

You're right, ripping out Wolf Man's heart with a stinger wouldn't work if Wolf Man was able to easily leap back and transform to heal, but he sadly won't be able to do due to two factos. One, Kaine is already faster than Wolf Man and can close any gap Wolf tries to create via his superior speed. Secondly, Kaine's fighting style will not allow Wolf Man the time needed to jump and transform to heal. Unlike most Spiders whose fighting styles are based around agility and avoidance, Kaine has an extremely violent and aggressive fighting style that utilizes his speed and strength to get on his opponent and wear them down. If I could compare it to anyone else, I'd say Kaine fights like a Wolverine who has Spider powers. The combination of Kaine's superior speed and intense up close and personal brawler fighting style will not allow Wolf the time to get in that valuable healing.

Wolf Man vs Zechariah. Wolf Man skill and stats over power the master Vampire.

That's good, but Kaine's physicals and fighting style alone have allowed him to drop the Marvel Universe's arguably most skilled fighter (Wolverine).

Online
#16 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08:

That's lowballing of Kaine there mate. Wolf Man has been tagged by people slower than Kaine before, does that mean that Kaine is going to be untouchable for Wolf Man? I didn't think so.

I actually do not believe so. werewolves like Werewolf by Night are faster than Peak Human to begin with, the difference between Kaine speed and say peter Parker is Peter has Spider Sense which allows him to dodge even speedy foes. Kaine has the speed, not the precog sense to go with it. Thus he takes more hits. It seems legit to me.

That's good, but Kaine is still the faster opponent here. It isn't a ridiculous speed edge to the point were Wolf Man will not even able to touch Kaine, but Kaine is still ultimately the faster combatant here. Really, his overall physicals (besides durability) all are better than that of Wolf Man's.

I would say he is faster, but without Spider Sense, and Kaine's in character to tank damage and push past it, I see Wolf an getting clear devastating hits in. Add in the skill Wolf Man has been trained in nearly a year for tagging speedy and deadly foes.

You're right, ripping out Wolf Man's heart with a stinger wouldn't work if Wolf Man was able to easily leap back and transform to heal, but he sadly won't be able to do due to two factos. One, Kaine is already faster than Wolf Man and can close any gap Wolf tries to create via his superior speed. Secondly, Kaine's fighting style will not allow Wolf Man the time needed to jump and transform to heal. Unlike most Spiders whose fighting styles are based around agility and avoidance, Kaine has an extremely violent and aggressive fighting style that utilizes his speed and strength to get on his opponent and wear them down. If I could compare it to anyone else, I'd say Kaine fights like a Wolverine who has Spider powers. The combination of Kaine's superior speed and intense up close and personal brawler fighting style will not allow Wolf the time to get in that valuable healing.

I doubt this for a few reason. By the time Wolf man needs to transform, if he gets that badly messed up, Kaine will no doubt have sustain major damage from Wolf Man as well. Chasing him down will be harder, he may downright right try to recover and patch himself up with webbing, because his guts will be sliding out.

Also Wolf Man has a mild healing factor to sustain those great wounds and push through. He can tank it till Kaine is injured enough for a quick transformation. Heck in character what will Kaine do when he see Wolf Man transform and pass out for a few seconds? he may as well thought he won, till Wolf Man transforms back and on the offensive again.

All this can play out in a real world fight.

That's good, but Kaine's physicals and fighting style alone have allowed him to drop the Marvel Universe's arguably most skilled fighter (Wolverine).

Wolverine is awesome, but that heart jab was lucky first off, and Wolverine was already set to lose to Kaine second off. It is a hard to judge showing of who really is superior when Marvel went ahead and said Wolverine wanted to lose anyway. As if Wolverine was not going balls to the wall.

Wolf Man unlike Wolverine tend goes balls to the wall.

Wolf Man vs Spore. Spore was handling the entire Actioneer team until Wolf Man showed up and really began to turn the tide against him.

Wolf Man takes out Eruptor with ease. Even tanking the super heated blast in the face.

Wolf Man vs a army of Werewolves. If you notice, Wolf Man is the only character that is manhandling the Werewolves. Agent Hunter, Gray Wolf, Mecha Maid, and Chloe are all getting bested. Wolf man however just slaughters all in his path.

Wolf Man's final big fight with Zechariah, and then the brutal battle with the Elder as top alpha dog of the wolf packs. In this Wolf Man manhandles Zechariah again, untill Zechariah decided to target the easier to kill 3 meta humans! He could not deal with Wolf man 1 on 1, so decided to take on the 3 Meta Humans. Elder finished Zechariah off and then goes balls to the wall on a holding back Wolf Man. Wolf Man ends this battle with one move, a fatal wound.

Heck Wolf Man has even fought really powerful beings like the god Gorgg.

Wolf Man vs the Old God Gorgg. Wolf Man is given Gauntlets to keep his hands from breaking, and a Jet Pack from Mecha Maid to battle. Basically all Wolf Man beating a Kaiju level god of solid earth.

Wolf man has the skills and stats to win against Kaine.

Also thought I throw this in real quick on the stealth suit for voters.

Super Hearing, Sight, and Smell of a Wolf. Hard to hide from in stealth, even if Invisible.

#17 Posted by GraniteSoldier (7978 posts) - - Show Bio

This...is good.

Online
#18 Posted by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw:

I actually do not believe so. werewolves like Werewolf by Night are faster than Peak Human to begin with, the difference between Kaine speed and say peter Parker is Peter has Spider Sense which allows him to dodge even speedy foes. Kaine has the speed, not the precog sense to go with it. Thus he takes more hits. It seems legit to me.

  • It is lowballing. Saying "A has been tagged by people slower than B so A isn't that much faster than B" is pretty much ABC logic, and if I take that logic all the way to the end zone, Wolf Man shouldn't even be able to touch Kaine because he has been tagged by people slower than Kaine before.

I would say he is faster, but without Spider Sense, and Kaine's in character to tank damage and push past it, I see Wolf an getting clear devastating hits in. Add in the skill Wolf Man has been trained in nearly a year for tagging speedy and deadly foes.

  • Kaine doesn't necessarily "tank damage" in a way tantamount to someone like Wolverine does in fights. He just has a brawling style and can take ludicrous amounts of damage if push comes to shove, but he doesn't seek to tank damage throughout fights.

I doubt this for a few reason. By the time Wolf man needs to transform, if he gets that badly messed up, Kaine will no doubt have sustain major damage from Wolf Man as well. Chasing him down will be harder, he may downright right try to recover and patch himself up with webbing, because his guts will be sliding out.

Also Wolf Man has a mild healing factor to sustain those great wounds and push through. He can tank it till Kaine is injured enough for a quick transformation. Heck in character what will Kaine do when he see Wolf Man transform and pass out for a few seconds? he may as well thought he won, till Wolf Man transforms back and on the offensive again.

  • Not necessarily. Like I explained earlier, Kaine doesn't seek tot tank damage, so while he will be brawling and constantly keeping massive amounts of pressure on Wolf Man, he will still able to use his speed in close quarters to avoid a lot of blows from Wolf Man. And even if Kaine is injured by Wolf Man, his recent fights with Kraven the Hunter and Ana Kravinoff in Scarlet Spider vol 2 #21 and #22, that even while massively injured and impaired, Kaine still has a high enough pain tolerance and durability to shrug off pain,injury and keep coming relentlessly at Wolf Man. Wolf isn't going to get any breathing room here. And Kaine in character finishes his opponents, so he won't just leave Wolf Man if he sees him fall unconscious before he completes the healing process.

Wolverine is awesome, but that heart jab was lucky first off, and Wolverine was already set to lose to Kaine second off. It is a hard to judge showing of who really is superior when Marvel went ahead and said Wolverine wanted to lose anyway. As if Wolverine was not going balls to the wall.

  • Logan was going serious enough to almost disembowel Kaine and leave a gapping cut on his face from a cut from his six claws.

Also thought I throw this in real quick on the stealth suit for voters.

  • The superhuman senses will help Wolf Man, but as seen in Scarlet Spider vol 2 #17, Kaine's stealth suit is advanced enough to let him even be undetectable even with a special visor. So Wolf Man is still going to have a tough time detecting a stealthed up Kaine.

You want us to both make summaries of why are combatants should win, or should we just go straight to voting?

Online
#19 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08:

It is lowballing. Saying "A has been tagged by people slower than B so A isn't that much faster than B" is pretty much ABC logic, and if I take that logic all the way to the end zone, Wolf Man shouldn't even be able to touch Kaine because he has been tagged by people slower than Kaine before.

My point was explained later. I always said and confirmed Kaine is faster. I wanted to point out he gets tagged alot and this is probably due to him powering through attacks and not having a Spidey Sense.

Kaine doesn't necessarily "tank damage" in a way tantamount to someone like Wolverine does in fights. He just has a brawling style and can take ludicrous amounts of damage if push comes to shove, but he doesn't seek to tank damage throughout fights.

Thats the thing, he is more aggressive and focus more on offense than defense. Thing is wolf Man can take the abuse, Khain be lucky not to lose his bottom torso in a connecting swing.

I doubt this for a few reason. By the time Wolf man needs to transform, if he gets that badly messed up, Kaine will no doubt have sustain major damage from Wolf Man as well. Chasing him down will be harder, he may downright right try to recover and patch himself up with webbing, because his guts will be sliding out.

Also Wolf Man has a mild healing factor to sustain those great wounds and push through. He can tank it till Kaine is injured enough for a quick transformation. Heck in character what will Kaine do when he see Wolf Man transform and pass out for a few seconds? he may as well thought he won, till Wolf Man transforms back and on the offensive again.

Not necessarily. Like I explained earlier, Kaine doesn't seek tot tank damage, so while he will be brawling and constantly keeping massive amounts of pressure on Wolf Man, he will still able to use his speed in close quarters to avoid a lot of blows from Wolf Man. And even if Kaine is injured by Wolf Man, his recent fights with Kraven the Hunter and Ana Kravinoff in Scarlet Spider vol 2 #21 and #22, that even while massively injured and impaired, Kaine still has a high enough pain tolerance and durability to shrug off pain,injury and keep coming relentlessly at Wolf Man. Wolf isn't going to get any breathing room here. And Kaine in character finishes his opponents, so he won't just leave Wolf Man if he sees him fall unconscious before he completes the healing process.

Difference is in his fights with them, he never took gut spilling, or body cut in half damage like Wolf Man dishes out in Wolf Man's battles. Even glancing blows will be fatal is not patched up. What few hits Wolf Man gets will count.

All examples of fatal blows.

Logan was going serious enough to almost disembowel Kaine and leave a gapping cut on his face from a cut from his six claws.

Which is a prime example how unprepared Kaine would be on a all out Wolf Man who is not holding back.

The superhuman senses will help Wolf Man, but as seen in Scarlet Spider vol 2 #17, Kaine's stealth suit is advanced enough to let him even be undetectable even with a special visor. So Wolf Man is still going to have a tough time detecting a stealthed up Kaine.

It will be somewhat useful, but not enough for a win thanks to Wolf Man's Smell and Hearing.

You want us to both make summaries of why are combatants should win, or should we just go straight to voting?

We can start voting :)

#20 Edited by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio

Thats the thing, he is more aggressive and focus more on offense than defense. Thing is wolf Man can take the abuse, Khain be lucky not to lose his bottom torso in a connecting swing.

But his speed more than enough to avoid a majority of Wolf Man's blows. Kaine still protects himself despite his aggressive style.

Difference is in his fights with them, he never took gut spilling, or body cut in half damage like Wolf Man dishes out in Wolf Man's battles. Even glancing blows will be fatal is not patched up. What few hits Wolf Man gets will count.

He got stabbed twice in the abdomen and other body parts by Anna Kravinoff with a poisoned knife and a police badge and still kept on going.

Which is a prime example how unprepared Kaine would be on a all out Wolf Man who is not holding back.

Wolf Man isn't as fast or skilled as Wolverine so Kaine's getting cut by him doesn't mean he'd have problems against a Wolf Man who is going all out.

It will be somewhat useful, but not enough for a win thanks to Wolf Man's Smell and Hearing.

Indeed, it will be useful. He'll probably go undetected by Wolf Man more often than not.

Let's begin voting! Call out some users.

Online
#22 Posted by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#23 Posted by kidman560 (7577 posts) - - Show Bio
#24 Edited by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#25 Edited by Strider92 (16612 posts) - - Show Bio
#26 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio
#27 Posted by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger I know you're pretty knowledge able on Spider-Man and other Spiders. I would appreciate your input in here.

Online
#28 Posted by kidman560 (7577 posts) - - Show Bio
#29 Edited by Cable_Extreme (9380 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: @indiecomicsftw:

Very nice debate guys, I am going to address my opinions on this fight and how both of you can better yourselves.

The main factor that I think ICFTW messed up on, was trying to compare marvel comic werewolves to that of the invincible universe. It is sometimes okay to do that, however, basing your argument with that comparison when Kaine has demonstrated better feats than that is not (imo) the best route to go. I do think that you did a great job in explaining Wolf-Man's strength and durability. I would have liked to see you provide more on Wolf-Man's speed which i think is the biggest factor when fighting someone like Kaine. I also think you were a little too defensive in this match, often fighting off Wolverine08's claims without actually providing a concrete plan of attack.

I think Wolverine08 could have explained his case a bit better, I feel that the info he put with his scans could have been elaborated more on. He did however, provide compelling evidence imo on Kaine's speed advantage (though more couldn't hurt). He also did a good job on the examples he pulled from the scans, and didn't try to assume things. Wolverine08 also did a good job on providing evidence to contrast your argument about Kaine's lack of durability, such as still fighting after being stabbed twice and poisoned.

I think to sum it up, both did a great job, and both could have done more. But in the end, Wolverine08 ultimately convinced me in Kaine's victory. Splendid job to the both of you though.

#30 Posted by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#31 Posted by Cable_Extreme (9380 posts) - - Show Bio
#32 Posted by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine: 1

Indie: 0

Online
#33 Posted by Visemoon (422 posts) - - Show Bio
#34 Posted by boschePG (2382 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: @wolverine08:

this was close and since I dont know squat about either, Im voting wolverine08.

@wolverine08 you have alot of posts on record and yet Im not aware of you. I was quite impressed with your style. Could you PM me about what characters you like to battle with for a possible CaV?

Online
#35 Posted by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#36 Posted by Cable_Extreme (9380 posts) - - Show Bio
#37 Posted by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#38 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio
#39 Posted by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

Online
#40 Edited by WarBlade539 (4594 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: I'll read this and come back to this later. Is that okay with you.

#41 Edited by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#42 Edited by RisingBean (4026 posts) - - Show Bio

I think I'm leaning toward Wolf Man on this.

#43 Posted by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm as Cable said, there was a lot of areas that could have been expanded on and avoided. Indie could have focused on not lowballing Kaine to suit his Wolf Man argument and Wolverine could have expanded way more on Kaine's physicals and strategies he could utilise in the fight. There was a lot of focus on disembowelling fatal strikes and tanking through physical attacks in this debate when there's more to it.

With this said, Indie did do a great job explaining why Wolf Man has the physicals, healing factor and mentality to stand a good chance against Kaine but when it came to dealing with an opponent's counterpoints, @wolverine08 did a slightly better job of it with suitable feats to match his arguments. For this reason, I give him my vote.

#44 Posted by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

Thanks for the advice man! I've been trying to avoid the scan bomb and actually put substance into my argument, but I could have shown a few more scans to illustrate just how great Kaine's physical advantage was. Overall, thanks.

Online
#45 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Hmm as Cable said, there was a lot of areas that could have been expanded on and avoided. Indie could have focused on not lowballing Kaine to suit his Wolf Man argument and Wolverine could have expanded way more on Kaine's physicals and strategies he could utilise in the fight. There was a lot of focus on disembowelling fatal strikes and tanking through physical attacks in this debate when there's more to it.

With this said, Indie did do a great job explaining why Wolf Man has the physicals, healing factor and mentality to stand a good chance against Kaine but when it came to dealing with an opponent's counterpoints, @wolverine08 did a slightly better job of it with suitable feats to match his arguments. For this reason, I give him my vote.

Lowballing? I wish everyone would stop saying I lowball "Insert character" here. All I stated was Kaine has the Speed, but not the Spider sense to make the best use of it like Peter in a fight.

Which is true. I a new man trying to avoid the Lowball in anything :/

#46 Edited by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: I know you didn't mean to but as I read it, you used the logic that since Kaine had been tagged by far weaker werewolves in comparison to Wolf Man, Wolf Man would be all over him. That part of your argument neglected Kaine's vastly superior stat showings on other occasions and how he'd be more likely to perform in the fight rather than based on his fights against similar opponents to Wolf Man. That's what let your argument down for me. I can quote exactly where you do it if you want me to.

#47 Posted by dondave (37987 posts) - - Show Bio

While this could have been a better debate, @wolverine08 gets my vote.

#48 Posted by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

While this could have been a better debate, @wolverine08 gets my vote.

Be happy with what you got! :D

Online
#49 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20318 posts) - - Show Bio

Have to go with @wolverine08 here. Great debate on both sides though!

Online
#50 Posted by Wolverine08 (42837 posts) - - Show Bio

Wolverine: 6

Indie: 0

Online