CaV Veshark/Cadence (Cap/Miles) v. BTHL/TDLP (Predator/Aang)

@betatesthighlander1

Ultimate Cap’s Feats

How does it make the feat pointless? I never used it as an example of Cap power being able to overcome Juggernaut’s. I never construed that he was capable of defeating Juggs single-handedly. All I showed was that Cap sustained a heavy beating from a 100-tonner, and afterwards still possessed enough strength to knock him out in one blow. I don’t see what’s so hard to understand – it’s not a fighting skill feat, it’s a durability and striking power feat. And again, raw strength does not necessarily equal striking power + gear (in this case his durable shield).

And if you still don’t believe me, here are the three scans of that fight in order, including Wolverine coming to help Cap with the triceratops. I’m not in the habit of taking feats out of context just to prove a point, and again, you can check your copy of Ultimates 3 if you want to resume being skeptical:

Gallery

Moving on to the Abomination. My statement still stands. What I said was ‘The Abomination is explicitly stated to have the strength of the Hulk, so that direct blow to Cap has to hurt’. Moving back to the Juggernaut feat again, Ultimate Black Panther’s costume does not have vibranium armor like his 616 counterpart. There is nothing proving that it provides Steve with any additional protection at all. And as for the Hulk – Cap said that he had cracked ribs, a broken nose, and a dislocated arm, but the fact that he tanked a direct punch to the face from a 100-tonner without dying still stands. You can’t deny that.

You wouldn’t use that for a glue or water gun because they’re not firearms, man! The former is a DIY tool; the latter is a child’s toy! Again, I never explicitly stated they were bullets or travelling at the speed of bullets, all I used was the term ‘gunfire’. And clearly Hawkeye was holding guns; I don’t see any way around that.

I apologize if my usage of the word misled you, but my statement still stands. As for War Machine, you’re really going for that argument when you can clearly see the rounds bouncing off Cap’s shield? Cap isn’t dodging the rounds; he’s reacting and blocking them with his shield, meaning the drones’ bullet-accuracy isn’t in question.

Onto Thor, do you not see the lightning bursting out of Thor’s hammer as it hits Cap’s shield? You were trying to lowball Thor as though he couldn’t even beat Hulk, and I’m showing you a display of his power. Modi was controlling Thor with an Infinity Gem during that fight, so Thor was obviously dropping a lethal blow on Cap. You want a more direct showing? Here you go:

That’s Thor bringing down Hyperion, a 100-tonner, with a hammer blow in Ultimate Power. You can try to make Ultimate Thor out to be some subpar fighter all you want, but the Thunder God has the feats to prove his powers.

And your steel analogy is flawed. Just because Cap has enough striking power to knock out Juggs, doesn’t mean he shares the same brute strength as the Juggernaut. I really don’t see what you can’t comprehend about this. You can’t compare Juggs to a steel wall because a steel wall doesn’t fight back. This isn’t strength vs. strength, this is strength vs. durability.

The Predator’s Feats

Alright, so we’ve established that the Predator will engage in direct combat, thank you. And you’re forgetting that both teams start in visual contact, meaning that Cap can already see the Predator once the battle starts. And the Pred won’t be able to cloak effectively until he steps out of the long stretch of flooded road, giving Cap a brief moment to entice the Pred into combat. Again, the bullets aren’t even meant to maim or kill, just to draw the Yautja’s attention away from Miles and to Cap himself.

And as for your argument about ‘real-world rules’…you can’t be serious, right? My point was that this soldier has lost his cool and obviously wasn’t shooting to the full extent of his marksmanship capabilities. So was the rest of the squad. They weren’t aiming and shooting, they were clearly just firing as many bullets as they could, so their accuracy here is in doubt. The fact that the Yautja was able to run away only makes it all the more pointless, because you were touting it as a feat of the Predator ‘surviving a barrage of bullets’.

And now you’re backtracking and saying that the Predator is running away instead of remaining there, which negates the whole point of the clip in the first place.

Moving on to your supposed problems:

1. I listed all of the Predator’s equipment and noted that Cap can retaliate to all of them. Your claim is unjustified.
2. Would the Yautja even be able to get close to Cap’s heart? The Predator is an Unblooded Initiate who has only been shown fighting a single ordinary human in HTH. Cap is a master of multiple martial arts, and has defeated plenty of superhuman opponents in close-quarters combat (Herr Kleiser, Nuke, Red Guardian). The Yautja tries to get close and he gets destroyed, there’s no denying melee is Cap’s turf.
3. Read the above on War Machine, and the scan I posted of Cap dodging near-360 degrees of shooting
4. I have no idea what relevance this has.

It challenged Arnie because Arnie called him out with the fire and the screaming. You should know that Yautja are honorable creatures (Remember Predators, when the Yautja uncloaked and fought with the Yakuza in a sword-fight when the man challenged him?). After trapping him, the Yautja then removed its helmet and plasma caster to fight Arnie in close-combat.

Onto the cloak. I implied no such thing, that the cloak wouldn’t work in the city. All I noted was a theory that Predators prefer humid climates as the heat-wave nature of their cloak blends in better with the surroundings, and that in this different climate, it might be easier for Cap to notice it. As for Cap’s parts being exposed, refer to the bit I posted about the Predator’s weapons being visible and uncloaked, and given Cap’s reflexes, I don’t doubt he can dodge or defend from most.

‘Projectile’ isn’t exactly the right term, but whatever; at least you understand it now. And semantics don’t negate my argument either…

It is absolute nonsense to claim that Arnie and his troops are bullet-timers, because there is nothing explicitly showing this whatsoever. And dear Lord, are you seriously saying that Mantis beat Thor? Because there is no Mantis in the Ultimate Universe. You’ve just used a feat from the regular 616 Universe. Bam. And I wasn’t power-scaling in the slightest; I was showcasing Cap’s shield’s durability against Thor’s lightning hammer.

And for the self-destruct, all I said was ‘it doesn’t matter’ in response to your reasoning for why the Predator committed suicide. So tell me, which is the superfluous mention now?

Conclusion

1. Sigh…read the above. Plasma caster is obvious and bright. Cap has superhuman reflexes. Cap has an indestructible shield and superhuman agility. What part of it don’t you understand?
2. All I said was that tearing the spine out of a dying normal human is hardly as impressive compared to what Cap has accomplished.
3. So I lowballed my own character’s feats? Uh-huh. Show me one instance of that.

You’re skating on thin ice there, friend. In response to a debate between two characters, and instead of actually arguing for your character, you’re now implying that I lied to you about Ultimate Cap’s capabilities? That it’s somehow my fault you didn’t research your opponent?

You listed the Jungle Hunter Predator as your choice, and we both agreed to it. In fact, as you might recall, CadenceV2 even suggested the Wolf Predator as a better choice, but you declined. For the record, I know several good ways this debate can be shifted in your favor, but don’t try to passive-aggressively accuse me of a bait-and-switch because of your own argument’s failings.

@cadencev2@veshark@betatesthighlander1:

Uhhh

So how do we decide who wins? o_O 'cuz if Ult Cap wins...he's not really going to contribute anything to the Miles vs Aang fight, he's kinda out of his league.

And Aang would own Ult. Cap...

Same with Jungle Predator.

Voting?

Guess it comes down if Cadence can convince voters.

@thedarklordpandamonium: Cap can help Miles with distraction.

I can prove that myself with scans :)

HOO-RAH.

@cadencev2:

Yeah but right now it looks like our fight is going to be over in like ten seconds max

Whereas the Predator vs Ult Cap is like 'stealth...yeaaaahh...'

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Dude that's a soundtrack.

:|

Seriously

Also, he was catching frogs in that instance and was thigh-deep in mud, which would have lowered his speeds ridiculously (and he still dodged like ten arrows from five archers) So...yeah...not really a legit feat.

BS.

Thats a meadow and he was tagged and desperate to get free!

Also, if anything THIS is PIS as they had to catch Aang. I mean, c'mon. Frozen frogs? Really? THAT was the best reason they could have to put Aang in a swamp where his speed would be reduced?

PIS!? REALLY!? They caught him becuase he is Consistently NOT LIGHTNING SPEED!

He does, though. Like, Supes never shows any significant struggle lifting anything else, and neither does Aang.

Benching world and yet he cannot one shot say Ocean master? Get real.

If anything, your lowball is PIS.

I proven how BS it is when Aang has trouble dodging Zuko, Azula, and freaking Arrows! It is "Consistent"

Given that Aang could carry a 1-2 ton boulder and he's not really special physically (if anything he's a runty kid)...I'd say earth shackles restraining the Avatar chars means they're pretty durable.

Also, it's SOLID ROCK. It's difficult to break through solid rock, and again you have no feats for Miles' leg strength.

Again false. Ang Earth Bending can easily lift that rock which he was. C'mon now.

LOL Leg Strength? He lifts a car, that is part of you legs! It comical and insulting to voters intelligence to assume his legs, strongest part of the human body, is weaker than his thinner arms. That is.... omg.

Probably not...I mean, you have at best 3x the strength of Aang and other benders who have been restrained permanently by the shackles. Saying it would take a second is generous, and the ice cocoon also restrained them.

Your not fooling anyone with this very poor logic guy.

I doubt it. Given that Aang's lifted up the 20 ton+ tanks, his vortexes are preeeeetty powerful, and Miles hasn't shown any strength like that.

His webs? Pffsht his webs would have to fly out of the vortex at supersonic speeds to get out of a hurricane like the ones Aang's been capable of producing!

Also, Miles has never fought the Avatar before. Aang has been in tons of fights and is battle-hardened; if he sees Miles blink out he'll be like 'oh' and then blast him -which he's doing anyways, he's doing all these simultaneously.

why is Aang using lethal force winds on a kid? That is not in character at all with the guy who refuses to kill or even maim. Your being rediculas now. Aang has no idea how tough Miles is, and would use minimal effort to not harm a 13 year old kid. Imagine his surprise when Miles proves tougher than any person from his world.

Why would he blast him? He never seen invisibility, so why would he assume to blast him when there is nothing there?

Orlly?

Now don't you look like a blowhard?

Wow, he was in avatar State mode during all that!

Skip to 9:45-11:30. In this he is in avatar mode and has the knowledge of 500 Avatars. Not his own. He shows as much.

Venom Sting

Again, in the instance I saw it took a good five seconds for the sting to kick in.

Yes it takes about 2 seconds to work. More than enough time for a instant win. Or it can be instant like Giant Woman!

What now?

True.... our match is the deciding factor really.

@cadencev2:

Yeah which bugs me

Uhhhhhh...hm. Ideas?

So.....how? Open for votes?

@veshark said:

And if you still don’t believe me, here are the three scans of that fight in order, including Wolverine coming to help Cap with the triceratops. I’m not in the habit of taking feats out of context just to prove a point, and again, you can check your copy of Ultimates 3 if you want to resume being skeptical:

Gallery

oh, okay

yeah, Juggernaut was already pretty much knocked out when that happened

so, doesn't really apply that well

but what you said doesn't apply, Abomination is clearly not nearly as strong as the Hulk

and yeah, I guess Cap is pretty indestructible

dodging darts?

I mean, that's like calling the discharge from a Harpoon gun "gunfire" or calling the strings on a stun-gun "gunfire"

how can you say he's reacting?

all the scans show is that the bullets hit his shield, bullets hit his shield all the time

@veshark said:

Onto Thor, do you not see the lightning bursting out of Thor’s hammer as it hits Cap’s shield? You were trying to lowball Thor as though he couldn’t even beat Hulk, and I’m showing you a display of his power. Modi was controlling Thor with an Infinity Gem during that fight, so Thor was obviously dropping a lethal blow on Cap. You want a more direct showing? Here you go:

so your saying that a lightning storm is the exact same thing as a giant thunderstorm?

anyways, yes, that is an impressive feat(this is Supreme Power Hyperion? because that guy survived attacks that were on par with nuclear weapons)

...what?

you are aware of Newton's third law?

the wall hit Juggernaut as hard as he hit the wall, and his head was undamaged

y'know what? this is pointless, as Cap didn't actually one-shot Cap as you had lead me to believe, I'm not continuing this

I'm not sure what you mean by "direct combat"

yeah, there was a barrage of bullets, and the Predator came out (realitively) unharmed, I never said taht the bullets hit him, stop putting words in my mouth

as for losing cool, Arnie seemed pretty calm in that clip, so I'm not believing that the all lost tehir cool right there

no, sorry, the clip was meant to show that The Predator can survive a bunch of peopel shooting at him just fine, and that no oen can effectively get a bead on the guy

sorry about that

1. the claim about how my pred will just decide to ravel himself? no, that is not unjustified

2. But yoru defense was Cap's healing factor, melee is Cap's ground here, but that's not what I was talking about. and don't bring the EU into this, the Predator in the first movie was far more competent than anyone we've seen since then

3. but he didn't actually dodge any of it, they just didn't hit him, by that logic the Predator would also be a bullet-timer

4. The Predator can do perfect voice imitations? he could make it seem like someone else was telling him something?

And The Predator was still using his cannon and cloak against Dutch in the final showdown, so that proves he uses ranged weapons against all of his prey

and the second part presumes that all Yautja act exactly the same, so I shouldn't have to go over what's wrong with that

again, his reflexes were not that impressive compared to the other prey

and what if the Predator shoots him from behind?

okay, so I f Cap manages to not get hit in a swarm of poorly aimed bullets, that's obviously bullet-timing

but if any of the people in Predator manage to not get hit ion a swarm of bullets, that's obviously not bullet timing?

and that's not what I meant from the Mantis thing, I was saying that because you can beat B, who beat C, it odoesn't mean you can actually beat C

your original statement was ABC logic about how Cap should destroy the Predator

I'm still saying yours

1. that he'll be able to see it coming

2. And I don't think I was really disagreeing with taht part

3. yeah, no, I guess maybe not

okay, I researched Ultimate Captain Americca

and I found no instance of him one-shotting Juggernaut

by the way you posted the scans in the original post, I assumed that I just missed that feat

I no know that he did not actually one-shot Juggernaut

yeah, yeah, ssure

and The Wolf really wasn't that much more impressive in terms of intelligence

still, I don't see Captain America making it past JH's stealth

and I now know that he has not in actuality one-shotted Juggernaut, so I guess not

we're already voting?

@betatesthighlander1

Look at the scan. Do you see the panel where Wolverine holds his claws to a clearly-conscious Juggernaut? Then do you see the next page when Cap says ‘Logan…let me’, and knocks out the Juggernaut in a single blow? This is not debatable. Next.

You can debate the term ‘gunfire’ all you want. I already apologized if my words were confusing, and have nothing to add to that feat, it stands on its own. Moving on.

Cap is clearly reacting because those probes are flying around. They are not stationary and firing at the same spot, they are clearly mobile and active, meaning that Cap has to react to the shooting with bullet-timing reflexes. You’re questioning the drones’ accuracy. I’m showing you that the drones are hitting Cap’s accurately, but that he has brought his shield to block them, thus proving both Cap’s own reaction time and the drones’ targeting.

I’m saying it’s a display of Thor’s power and proving that the character is a powerhouse. You were trying to make Thor out to be some unimpressive character that can’t beat the Hulk, in an attempt to lowball my feat of Cap’s shield tanking Mjolnir. And yes, that is Supreme Hyperion.

Read the above. Ultimate Cap knocked out Juggernaut with a blow of shield. This is indisputable. Next.

Direct combat equals fighting, as opposed to stalking and hunting.

The Predator didn’t ‘come out’. And I never said that the bullets hit the Pred either, you’re the one putting the words in my mouth. And here’s a quote of your own statement right before you posted that video as proof:

The predator has survived far worse barrages with minimal damage

You were touting it as though it was proof the Predator had sustained an extended shootout, when it obviously ran away. Whatever the case for Arnie’s composure; the fact remains that they were just firing a barrage of suppressive fire.

1. I never mentioned anything about the Predator revealing himself. I just noted his equipment one-by-one. That is all.
2. Well then you should have specified. Also, the Wolf Predator seems better, but that’s a debate for another day.
3. He reacted and blocked three drones firing from different angles. Bullet-timing.
4. The Predator repeated one line that Arnie said, and it wasn’t even a particularly accurate imitation. That is not a valid tactic.

Yes, up until the point when he discards his gear and begins to go physical? It’s in-character for the Jungle Hunter.

You can’t seriously be comparing Ultimate Cap – an enhanced Super-Soldier – to a group of conventional grunts. Refer to the above regarding Cap’s ability to discern the Pred.

Show me one instance in that shootout clip of the squad dodging bullets. Because there is nothing explicitly shown of a member of the team physically dodging rounds. All we have is a messy firefight where the soldiers defeated the rebels. By that logic, all real-life members of the armed forces who survive firefights are bullet-timers too.

You should have elucidated the Mantis feat then, your wording was confusing.

It wasn’t. It was a comparison of Cap’s victories to the Predator’s failure. There was nothing about ABC logic, though you can presume to throw that term around all you want.

Read the above regarding Juggernaut. Oh and for the record, this isn’t the first time Cap’s KOed Juggernaut in a single blow, it’s the second. Here’s a scan from Ultimate War, where Cap kicks Juggernaut through a brick wall in the final panel and incapacitates him. There are about a dozen readers on the Vine who’ve read this issue and can verify my claim:

Sigh…whatever floats your boat, man. I don’t foresee this debate going any further, so I’m going to stop now. I move we open for voting.

No, Darklord was asking how we would resolve the fight if Ult Cap is useless against Miles vs. Aang, and I said that it would be the voters decision.

Though I do want to begin voting now. All in favor of starting votes?

the guy was clearly pretty messed up by that point, that's like knocking out a guy who's already lost a pint of blood

also, what made him "clearly concious"? the fact that he didn't move, or the fact that he didn't talk?

okay then

how does the movement of the drones effect anything?, and by the way he was holding his shield, none of those "blocked" shots appeared as if they would actually hit him

also, most of the soldiers Dutch's team was shooting at were also moving, and they managed to not have their weapons hit, so I'd say they were doing much better

and that's an honest scan right there? Hyperion wasn't just hit by something totally unrelated and Thor just provided a finishing blow?

oooooooooooooohhhh, it's indesputable

and here I was thinking that logic applied to this debate, and we were supposed to actually bring up valid points

I had no idea that we just had to declare things indisputable, and suddenly they become valid

seriously though, what he did was not that impressive,

no, we did not establish that, even a little bit

He had survived the shootuout, as I said he had

and we can assume just as easily that all of those people shooting at Cap were firing suppressively

1. you said that he would do the eye-flash, that means he would be revealing himself

2. I don't need to specify, the feats speak louder than the totally idiotic hunters created by later writers

3. You have no proof that he reacted; again, Dutch's mercenaries had the same lack of wounds from a much more competent group of shooters, and the Pred killed all of them

and I guess you'll tel me that all those people who had clips unloaded at them without gettting hit in real life are bullet-timers as well?

4. what? he did a very good imitation, and managed to draw people in with it

he did not discard his gear, it was damaged

you really haven't given me much in that department

like, really essentially nothing so far speaks for Cap's ability to discern the Pred

and you have shown me zero scans of Captain America dodging bullets

that's my entire point, it's not bullet timing until; you see someone actually reacting, which you have not shown Steve doing

okay then

so it was either

1. ABC logic (Cap Beat s soldiers, a soldier beat JH, Cap beats JH)

2. entirely irrelevant (look at how cool my guy is, your guy wishes he could be that cool)

@veshark said:

Read the above regarding Juggernaut. Oh and for the record, this isn’t the first time Cap’s KOed Juggernaut in a single blow, it’s the second. Here’s a scan from Ultimate War, where Cap kicks Juggernaut through a brick wall in the final panel and incapacitates him. There are about a dozen readers on the Vine who’ve read this issue and can verify my claim:

and I can trust that this is in context?

was that statement meant to say anything?

@betatesthighlander1 Yeah, alright, great.

Move we start for voting or does anyone have anything else to add?

@thedarklordpandamonium @cadencev2

I mean, I guess if the Pred plays his cards right he could at eats try to tag SPider-man

but the Spider sense won't help him with his accuracy

so your going to bring up a new feat that you never even mentioned up to that point in your very last debate post?

Indeed I did. Your point being?

I have nothing else to add, my argument stands for itself. I leave it to the voters to decide.

I don't know, just seems like it would be nice to have some discussion of what happenned

Well, apologies then. But my enthusiasm for this debate has died down somewhat, I don't really have an interest in prolonging it.

yeah, it did kind of turn out as a mess

@cadencev2@betatesthighlander1@veshark:

So basically the only thing that matters is me vs cadencev2?

bleh.

I'm ready to go for votes if you guys would like...:x

I mean, I guess there is little more to add

Im good.

Okay, voting's open!

@nick_hero22@jashro44@beatboks1@killemall@esquire@floopay@backflip@shawnbaby@lvenger @super_soldierxii@theacidskull@deranged_midget@nickzambuto@tomlikesfries@youngjustice@thundergodswrath@fetts@chaos_prime@laflux @jgames @juiceboks@ghostravage@floopay

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

@cadencev2: @thedarklordpandamonium: @veshark: yeah voting's started

I do feel like this whole thing never really got off of the ground very well

good luck guys

and like, congratulations

(I'm really tired right now, no idea how coherent that was)

Tag me in tomorrow or Wednesday and I'll make a vote.

Though I will say, being from Minnesota and all, that the first Predator Movie holds some extra appeal to me...

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Yeah, good luck to all involved. Apologies for the lack of enthusiasm, but I think this was a kinda messy and poorly thought-out suggestion on my part.

@thedarklordpandamonium: @cadencev2: @betatesthighlander1: @veshark: I've seen you debate before, and all of you could have made this debate a lot longer and elaborated. Especially with this kind of characters. There's a decent balance in this fight due to Predator and Caps being the supportive type of character in this fight while Aang and Miles are the heavy hitters.

Anyway, overall i think Veshark and CadenceV2 did better, not their best example of debating but good enough. Nonetheless, i think Aang can beat Miles Morales... :)

Veshark, i wanted to see that Veshark from Moonknight vs Red Robin again, that debate was a lot better.

CadenceV2 and Veshark got my vote, but everybody, congratulations.

Voting for team Cadshark.

I just got that..... ha ha.....

@veshark: yaaaayyyyy

thanks for voting, guys

I always think your avatar is Carnage's whole body, but it's really just Spider-Woman's head

I vote for Cadence/Veshark.

@betatesthighlander1: Ultimate Spider Woman. Its all I have left of poor Peter.

whatever happened to him

thank you, your vote is very much appreciated

@shawnbaby@nickzambuto Thanks for the votes guys.

@ghostravage Yeah I know...this wasn't exactly my crowning moment. It just got a little convoluted, but I'll definitely learn from this the next time I make a tag-team match. Thanks for the vote, though.

@veshark: I agree with the convolution

what do I need to do to stop this in the future?

@cadencev2:

Are you kidding me

You didn't get it?!

That's it

We win by default

*clears out*

@thedarklordpandamonium: yaaayyyyyy

we win (wait, are you my partner or the other guy's?)

If I try this again, I think it would be easier to make every character on roughly the same level, to prevent any weird imbalances. And definitely some sort of posting order should be established to prevent it from going chaotic.

If nothing else, I did learn a bit about match-making in this CaV.

@veshark: good to know

You guys were balanced at first but then the order of debating got a bit out of hand I have to say. Quite the convoluted debate to read. Not to mention that the awesome debate veshark was having with beta didn't matter that much to the overall debate given that in practice (by this I mean if these characters were actually fighting) the deciding fight would really be Miles vs Aang. Whilst things did get confusing IMO, Cadece and thedarklord's debate was all kinds of back and forth awesome. I have to say Veshark dominated beta and whilst thedarklord held his own well, Cadence unleashed the full power of his debating force on him. So my vote goes to @veshark/@cadencev2 on this tag team debate. Great debate to all you guys!

Mucho gracias :)

I second this man.

@lvenger: Thanks :)