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#1 Edited by Veshark (9057 posts) - - Show Bio

Ultimate Captain America (Veshark)

The Super-Soldier

Miles Morales (CadenceV2)

The New Spider-Man

VS.

Jungle Hunter Predator (Betatesthighlander)

The Original Predator

Aang (Thedarklordpandamonium)

The Last Airbender

Conditions

  • In-character, zero prep
  • Win by KO, Incap, or Death
  • Ultimate Captain America has shield, an assault rifle with ammo, and various grenades
  • Jungle Hunter Predator has all standard gear from Predator 1
  • Aang has his staff

Battlefield:

  • Unpopulated city block that has been abandoned for years
  • Both teams start in visual contact of each other

@cadencev2 @betatesthighlander1 @thedarklordpandamonium

Check that all conditions are to your liking, then decide who wants to go first.

#2 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

I chose post-timeskip full access to Avatar State Aang, actually.

And as for his equipment, metalbending armor+gauntlets as well.

e_e

#3 Edited by Veshark (9057 posts) - - Show Bio

I chose post-timeskip full access to Avatar State Aang, actually.

And as for his equipment, metalbending armor+gauntlets as well.

e_e

Ah alright then, updated.

#4 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by Veshark (9057 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#7 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: Yeah.... which is why I find Avatar State Aang offensive. The guy is Iron Man level and untouchable via 4 element force field.

Bad form.

#8 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

But you recommended me to use Avatar Aang...

#9 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#11 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Alright. I mean, I did say 'avatar state aang' and you were like 'doooo iiiiit', but...okay?

#12 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Alright. I mean, I did say 'avatar state aang' and you were like 'doooo iiiiit', but...okay?

I thought you meant Avatar Aang with his feats without Avatar State. I thought that went without saying given the power level we were debating at.

#13 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

I had no idea what Ult Miles could do other than being able to combat Ult Green Goblin who was trashing Ult Thing, which is what I based my prognosis off of.

But okee, regular Aang it is?

#14 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium said:

@cadencev2:

I had no idea what Ult Miles could do other than being able to combat Ult Green Goblin who was trashing Ult Thing, which is what I based my prognosis off of.

But okee, regular Aang it is?

? Ultimate Green Goblin has never fought Miles, He was dead. Also Ultimate Goblin never trashed Thing nor met Thing, that was Carnage.

Yes Basic Aang with all his non Avatar State feats is more than enough for this match.

#15 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Damn I'm bad.

Alright, basic Aang it is! ^_^ It'll take a while to get my post up, sorry. :(

#16 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: No probs. I can see the concern if Ultimate Thing was trashed by Goblin who would then been thrashed by Miles.

#17 Edited by Veshark (9057 posts) - - Show Bio
#18 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#19 Posted by Veshark (9057 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1 @thedarklordpandamonium

Alright, so after much discussion, we can finally get the actual debate on the road. We’ve got Ultimate Cap and the current Ultimate Spider-Man Miles Morales…going up against the original Predator and Aang the Last Airbender.

Leggo.

Teamwork

The first point I want to address is that the Ultimate team has one advantage that our opponents lack: teamwork. Aang and the Predator, at best, know that they are on the same side, but neither is aware of the other’s capabilities, and they can’t even communicate in the same language! In contrast, Ultimate Cap and Miles Morales have trained and fought together before, granting them a level of synergy on the battlefield.

Teamwork!

Now I’m not saying that just because they have actual teamwork that it grants them an automatic win. But what am I noting is that it’s an advantage to take into account, and we’ll find out how important this factor is later in the debate.

Once the battle begins, both teams will start out with visual sight on one another, as the opening conditions officially state. With Aang being a little kid while the Predator is a huge Lil Wayne-esque monster, Ultimate Cap will go straight for the Yautja, leaving Miles to tackle the Avatar.

With that out of the way, let’s start out with a quick run-down on Ultimate Captain America’s capabilities for the uninitiated:

Physicals

The most obvious difference that separates Ultimate Cap from his 616 counterpart is that Ultimate Cap is an actual superhuman. He’s not ‘peak’ or ‘low-level enhanced’, 1610 Steve Rogers has legit powers, and lives up to the ‘Super’ part of a ‘Super-Soldier’. His strength, durability, and intelligence are all on a post-human scale, making him a formidable threat. So let’s have a look at some displays of his physical prowess.

We’ll start off with brute strength. Nick Fury once said that Cap was strong enough to ‘bench-press a Toyota’, but as we’ve seen in his comic appearances, that isn’t even half of what he can do. The following is a quick showing of Cap’s striking power. Here we have Captain America KOing Ultimate Juggernaut – a 100-tonner – with a single blow of his shield.

Now let’s put this feat into context. In the first scan, we see that Cap already sustained a painful beating from Juggs here. Juggernaut slammed Cap through trees and rocks and bashed him onto the ground. And keep in mind that Juggs is a high-end powerhouse that worked for Weapon X, and is strong enough to defeat Ultimate Colossus. Heck, Rogue once tried to steal his abilities, and he wasn’t even slightly weakened because that’s how powerful he is.

And yet, after that beating, Cap still possesses enough strength and striking power to incapacitate the Juggernaut in a one hit. We see in the second scan that Juggs is collapsed on the ground, totally out-cold. Now of course the constitution of Cap’s shield takes some credit here, but it’s undeniable that it took a high degree of strength on Cap’s part to not only knock out Juggs – but a Juggs with an armored helmet on. Superhuman strength indeed.

But Cap’s powers aren’t limited to his fists alone, so let’s progress to Cap’s durability. Ultimate Cap is notoriously tough, especially given that he’s a relatively low-tier superhuman compared to other heroes, and the man regularly sustains beatings from 100-tonners without dying.

To that point, here we have a scan of Ultimate Cap tanking a double-fisted blow from the Abomination. The monster’s fists alone are clearly larger than Cap’s entire body, and right after that devastating smash, Abomination flings him through a concrete wall.

Cap tanks a two-fisted blow from Abomination and survives a concrete wall

Now there are three things that make this showing notable. The first is that Abomination is explicitly stated to have the ‘strength of the Hulk’ – so he’s clearly a top-tier powerhouse, and that direct blow to Cap has to hurt.

The second is that Cap was drugged prior to this and has already been beaten up by super-soldiers before, so he’s already not in the best of shape. And lastly, even after tanking that hit from Abomination and being hurtled through the wall…Cap is still able to stand up and fight Colonel Abdul al-Rahman in the next page – a super-soldier who has all the abilities of Cap – and win that fight! So it’s pretty clear that Ultimate Cap is one tough S.O.B. who frequently fights outside his weight class.

With strength and durability out of the way, I just want to cap off the physicals part of my argument by taking note of Ultimate Cap’s battlefield reflexes. Here’s one of my personal favorite Cap feats, where we have Steve being fast enough to use his shield to deflect Hawkeye’s tranquilizers back at him!

Cap reacts to gunfire, deflects tranquilizers

Now bear in mind that Hawkeye is arguably his universe’s best marksman, and yet after Hawkeye shoots, Cap still possesses enough reflexive speed to react to the firing. His speed is fast enough that he can actually angle his block correctly to send the tranquilizers right back to Clint. Has the Yautja ever displayed this degree of responsive speed?

So to summarize the entire physicals section, I’ve shown that Ultimate Captain America has displayed a degree of strength at least equal to, if not greater than, the Jungle Hunter Predator. He also has a readily impressive level of constitution against attacks, and can react to firearm speed with ease. But a physical conditioning isn’t the only thing that Cap will be bringing to this battle, so let’s move on to the Super-Soldier’s equipment…

Gear

As stated in the OP, Ultimate Cap will be armed with his shield, an assault rifle, as well as grenades. Now, to my knowledge, Predators are fairly durable against small-arms fire. I’m not entirely sure how tough they are against a rifle’s piercing rounds, so let’s just say that Cap’s shooting will not necessarily kill the Yautja, but at least hurt it somewhat. Irregardless, the assault rifle isn’t there to put down the Predator, just to draw his attention and give Cap a long-range option. The same goes for the grenades, which include explosive and smoke options.

But Ultimate Cap’s primary weapon in this debate will be his always-iconic shield. Contrary to popular belief, Ultimate Cap’s shield is never directly stated to be composed of adamantium, but is simply referred to as being an indestructible metal. But just because it isn’t adamantium, doesn’t mean it isn’t durable as hell, as I’ll easily illustrate in the scan below.

Cap's shield tanks Mjolnir

Here we have Captain America’s shield sustaining a direct blow from Mjolnir, Thor’s magic hammer. Now as seen in the scan itself, Thor was being mind-controlled by Modi using an Infinity Gem, and Modi had ordered Thor to kill Cap. So this lightning smash here is clearly a killing blow, and the Thunder God isn’t some street-leveler either, he’s an Asgardian.

And yet despite all that, Cap’s shield is still able to take the blow with zero visible damage whatsoever, and in the next issue, we see that it’s fine, without a single scratch on it. I think it’s safe to say that nothing the Predator has in its arsenal, not even the plasma caster, can even penetrate Cap’s shield.

But now let’s segue on to the shield’s offensive capabilities. As I showed you in the Physicals section above, Cap’s own strength matched with the shield was able to knock out the 100-tonner Juggernaut with his helmet on. So there’s no question that if he hits the Predator’s helmet, it’s going to seriously hurt – the shield is indisputably tough. But Cap’s shield isn’t just restricted to bashing, as he can also throw it as a long-range weapon.

Now granted, Ultimate Cap doesn’t exercise his shield-throwing as much as 616-Cap, but that doesn’t mean he’s a slouch in this department either. To depict, here are two scans where Ultimate Cap throws his shield with enough force to lop the head off the Assemble cyborg.

Who is Assemble? A monstrosity with the powers of Thor, Hulk, and Giant-Man all rolled into one. An enemy that was giving the Ultimate X-Men serious trouble. And yet one single throw from Cap’s shield is able to deCAPitate the monster's head clean off (See what I did there? DeCAPitate? Get it? Get it? I'm hilarious.)

Conclusion

So now that we’ve covered all of Cap’s capabilities and the equipment he’ll be packing; let’s apply that to how Ultimate Cap will take down the Predator. As I mentioned earlier, Ultimate Cap’s rifle and grenades will serve as an early distraction to draw the Predator’s attention to him. But the permanent means of putting down the Predator will boil down to Cap’s physical skills and his shield. I’ve already shown that Steve is very powerful in terms of his physical conditioning and offensive capabilities, and his shield should be able to take whatever the Yautja throws at him, as well as rebuff with his own counterattacks.

Your turn, @cadencev2. Get 'em.

#20 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: not so sure about all those analyses, but I cannot yet post in detail

#21 Posted by Veshark (9057 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: not so sure about all those analyses, but I cannot yet post in detail

Relax, after me it's Cadence's turn before yours. You still have time ;)

#22 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Miles is indeed the new Spider man and as the youngest spider man in existence (age 13) has more in line strength showings of 5 toner. However his Speed and Durability is shown close enough to Ultimate Peter. He also has the Spider Sense as well.

Speed and Agility

Miles is Proven as Agile and as Peter as well.

1) Miles moving to fast to be hit by multiple trained Hydra, Hydra who are professionally train by Nick Fury himself.

2) Miles dodges the very highly train SHIELD, and you can see moves as fast as the bullets are traveling.

3) Moves faster than the accurate Targeting Computers and fire power of these Warmachine Suits.

Strength

While at the moment Miles does not have the same strength feats as Peter he does have couple of ton strength.

1-2) KOes Giant woman with a punch to the face.

3) Lifts a heavy frame Cop Car over his head with ease.

Durability

Miles Durability as a 13 year old is nothing short of incredible.

1) Miles takes kicks from Batroc who can crush Concrete Roads with his leg power.

2-3) Miles takes a vicious slam from Giant woman that only stuns him. Giant Woman has shown to lify easy 60+ tons, so winding her hand back and slamming Miles with all her strength is a major feat.

4-5) Miles tanks a large Explosion at point blank range.

6) Miles tanks another Large Explosion in his face.

7) Scorpion has Super Human Strength and Durability. As seen he can crush super hard concrete floors with his fist and leave craters. He punches Miles in the face and it just causes Miles to see stars for a second.

Webbing

Miles like Peter does not skimp of the Web Spam.

Miles web spamming SHIELD troops while dodging bullets.

Spider Sense

Just like Peter, Miles has a Spider Sense to warn of general danger.

1-2) Warns him of the Cops ready to shoot.

3-4) This is to show it even works on other Spider Man powered people, like Spider Woman who is a near exact clone of Peter.

Besides having the same Abilities of Peter, he has 2 extra ones. Invisibility and Venom Sting.

Overall Aang is outclass in stats. he may have more skill, but Miles who starts with no skill shows a incredible aptitude for learning on the fly, studying Peter's fights, and straight proving his stats alone can beat very skilled foes.

To prove this are his first few battles.

This is the battle of Prowler and Scorpion, just to show how skilled Prowler is and how Super Human Scorpion is. After this battle Prowler decides to enlist Miles help. He tests him out. Prowlers skills and gear against Miles raw stats.

Miles fights the Super Human Scorpion. Scorpion is indeed Super Human in strength and durability, as well a good fighter.

Here Miles proves that he will do what it takes to put someone down, even his Uncle the Prowler, who is the greatest Thief in America, and a hardcore skilled fighter with the Tinkerers best toys at his disposal.

This is all early stuff. With practice and studying Peter's own battles, Miles gets alot better.

I can see Ang using his bending to huge affect, but Miles has face a wide variety of foes. He will simply adapt and has the potential to beat Aang with a touch. something Aang knows nothing about.

#23 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio
#24 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#25 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#26 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio
#27 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#28 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio
#29 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio
#30 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio
#32 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Awwwwwwwwwwww ye

Exactly what I wanted from this CAV

Arguing over a feat

#33 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

just so everyone gets this

@veshark: my entire argument is basically a matter of stealth and detection

Right now, I see little to stop JH from just being all

on Captain America

basically what I'm asking is

1. does Cap have the stealth to evade the Predator?

2. does Cap have the senses to locate the predator?

I man, have we all seen the movie?

I could gather feats if you guys are unfamiliar

#34 Posted by Veshark (9057 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1

Ooh-kay...have you done a CaV before, man? You're supposed to read my argument, then come up with a counterargument. Like a basic rundown of your character's capabilities, and then why you disagree with my points, and how your character would win, with backing from feats. You can't just drop down a bunch of questions and unverified claims like that. For the sake of argument, I'll address them, though you should keep that in mind...

The problem with cloaking is this. Look at the image of the city block battlefield. We have an entire stretch of flooded road, and as we all know, even the slightest bit of water disrupts the Predator's cloaking. Now I know one can argue that the Predator might go off to the side of the road or use the buildings as cover, but the fact is that the water creates an obvious geographical disadvantage for your Yautja's 'stealth strategy'. Another factor to take into account is we have to realize this isn't your typical Predator hunting scenario, so would the Predator cloak instead of just engaging in direct combat? If both teams start out in visual contact and Cap begins goading the Yautja, I don't see why the Predator wouldn't get into CQC like its fight with Arnie.

Even if, for the sake of argument, the Predator does begin cloaking, I believe that Cap possesses enough senses to detect and react to the alien. Whether or not Cap has the 'stealth to evade the Predator' isn't the question here, because Cap is a straight-up fighter, not a hit-and-run combatant like the Yautja. Now the thing one has to take into account is that the Predator's cloaking isn't perfect. It refracts light, but a vague silhouette can still be seen, almost like a heat-wave. It's theorized that's why Predators prefer hunting in humid tropical locations, because their cloaking works better in the heat. But in these conditions, given what appears to be a cold overcast climate, I argue that Ultimate Cap will have no trouble at least discerning the Predator. I mean, even the guys from Predator 2 were able to notice the cloaked Yautja, right?

So to summarize, even in the off-chance that the Predator does cloak, Cap will still be able to detect and react to the Predator. And before you say that the Predator might shoot invisible long-range weapons, bear in mind that the cloaking effect only lasts for a few seconds for the Pred's weapons, giving plenty of time for Cap to react. I've already shown Captain America reacting to gunfire, so just to nail home his perceptive capabilities, here's a scan of him dodging near-360 degree gunfire without taking a single hit:

And if it does boil down to close-combat, Cap still has the advantage there. He's won more fights and has more feats to show, whereas the Jungle Hunter has hunting a bunch of soldiers at best, before being offed by a tree log. Cap has depicted a greater display of strength, and durability, not to mention fighting skill (Red Guardian, Nuke, Kleiser, Abdul), and is referred to in the Ultimate Handbook as having 'mastered multiple martial arts'. All the Predator has shown is beat up poor Arnold, and his crappy durability when he got crushed by a log (and don't give me that immobilized nonsense, because the Pred was obviously mortally wounded, because why would it set off the self-destruct otherwise?).

#35 Posted by Lvenger (17906 posts) - - Show Bio

A tag team debate? I don't usually keep an eye on these but with Veshark and Cadence as a team, I can't wait to see how they do on this one!

#36 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio
#37 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: oh yeah, sorry, I was really busy with something else

okay, let's look at this

@veshark said:

@betatesthighlander1 @thedarklordpandamonium

Alright, so after much discussion, we can finally get the actual debate on the road. We’ve got Ultimate Cap and the current Ultimate Spider-Man Miles Morales…going up against the original Predator and Aang the Last Airbender.

Leggo.

Teamwork

The first point I want to address is that the Ultimate team has one advantage that our opponents lack: teamwork. Aang and the Predator, at best, know that they are on the same side, but neither is aware of the other’s capabilities, and they can’t even communicate in the same language! In contrast, Ultimate Cap and Miles Morales have trained and fought together before, granting them a level of synergy on the battlefield.

Teamwork!

Now I’m not saying that just because they have actual teamwork that it grants them an automatic win. But what am I noting is that it’s an advantage to take into account, and we’ll find out how important this factor is later in the debate.

Once the battle begins, both teams will start out with visual sight on one another, as the opening conditions officially state. With Aang being a little kid while the Predator is a huge Lil Wayne-esque monster, Ultimate Cap will go straight for the Yautja, leaving Miles to tackle the Avatar.

With that out of the way, let’s start out with a quick run-down on Ultimate Captain America’s capabilities for the uninitiated:

naw man, Air Nomads and Yautja are totally tight

@veshark said:

Physicals

The most obvious difference that separates Ultimate Cap from his 616 counterpart is that Ultimate Cap is an actual superhuman. He’s not ‘peak’ or ‘low-level enhanced’, 1610 Steve Rogers has legit powers, and lives up to the ‘Super’ part of a ‘Super-Soldier’. His strength, durability, and intelligence are all on a post-human scale, making him a formidable threat. So let’s have a look at some displays of his physical prowess.

We’ll start off with brute strength. Nick Fury once said that Cap was strong enough to ‘bench-press a Toyota’, but as we’ve seen in his comic appearances, that isn’t even half of what he can do. The following is a quick showing of Cap’s striking power. Here we have Captain America KOing Ultimate Juggernaut – a 100-tonner – with a single blow of his shield.

Now let’s put this feat into context. In the first scan, we see that Cap already sustained a painful beating from Juggs here. Juggernaut slammed Cap through trees and rocks and bashed him onto the ground. And keep in mind that Juggs is a high-end powerhouse that worked for Weapon X, and is strong enough to defeat Ultimate Colossus. Heck, Rogue once tried to steal his abilities, and he wasn’t even slightly weakened because that’s how powerful he is.

And yet, after that beating, Cap still possesses enough strength and striking power to incapacitate the Juggernaut in a one hit. We see in the second scan that Juggs is collapsed on the ground, totally out-cold. Now of course the constitution of Cap’s shield takes some credit here, but it’s undeniable that it took a high degree of strength on Cap’s part to not only knock out Juggs – but a Juggs with an armored helmet on. Superhuman strength indeed.

But Cap’s powers aren’t limited to his fists alone, so let’s progress to Cap’s durability. Ultimate Cap is notoriously tough, especially given that he’s a relatively low-tier superhuman compared to other heroes, and the man regularly sustains beatings from 100-tonners without dying.

To that point, here we have a scan of Ultimate Cap tanking a double-fisted blow from the Abomination. The monster’s fists alone are clearly larger than Cap’s entire body, and right after that devastating smash, Abomination flings him through a concrete wall.

are you sure those two scans are in direct order?

because I'm fairly sure the second one is Cap taking out Sabertooth

If I'm wrong on this, than I would have to question why you placed a legit class 100 as a mid-tier street leveler

@veshark said:

Cap tanks a two-fisted blow from Abomination and survives a concrete wall

Now there are three things that make this showing notable. The first is that Abomination is explicitly stated to have the ‘strength of the Hulk’ – so he’s clearly a top-tier powerhouse, and that direct blow to Cap has to hurt.

The second is that Cap was drugged prior to this and has already been beaten up by super-soldiers before, so he’s already not in the best of shape. And lastly, even after tanking that hit from Abomination and being hurtled through the wall…Cap is still able to stand up and fight Colonel Abdul al-Rahman in the next page – a super-soldier who has all the abilities of Cap – and win that fight! So it’s pretty clear that Ultimate Cap is one tough S.O.B. who frequently fights outside his weight class.

With strength and durability out of the way, I just want to cap off the physicals part of my argument by taking note of Ultimate Cap’s battlefield reflexes. Here’s one of my personal favorite Cap feats, where we have Steve being fast enough to use his shield to deflect Hawkeye’s tranquilizers back at him!

Ultimate Abomination is clearly much weaker than the Hulk, or the Hulk would not have torn him apart. (feats supersede statements)

anyways, it's also fairly obvious that Abomination was saving Cap for Al-Rahman

so this feat is pretty much entirely worthless

Cap reacts to gunfire, deflects tranquilizers

Now bear in mind that Hawkeye is arguably his universe’s best marksman, and yet after Hawkeye shoots, Cap still possesses enough reflexive speed to react to the firing. His speed is fast enough that he can actually angle his block correctly to send the tranquilizers right back to Clint. Has the Yautja ever displayed this degree of responsive speed?

So to summarize the entire physicals section, I’ve shown that Ultimate Captain America has displayed a degree of strength at least equal to, if not greater than, the Jungle Hunter Predator. He also has a readily impressive level of constitution against attacks, and can react to firearm speed with ease. But a physical conditioning isn’t the only thing that Cap will be bringing to this battle, so let’s move on to the Super-Soldier’s equipment…

uhm, Tranquilizer guns don't shoot at nearly the speed of bullets, their really not even consistently faster than arrows

and blocking stuff with a shield isn't actually that difficult, though the deflection was fairly impressive (if totally implausible)

@veshark said:

Gear

As stated in the OP, Ultimate Cap will be armed with his shield, an assault rifle, as well as grenades. Now, to my knowledge, Predators are fairly durable against small-arms fire. I’m not entirely sure how tough they are against a rifle’s piercing rounds, so let’s just say that Cap’s shooting will not necessarily kill the Yautja, but at least hurt it somewhat. Irregardless, the assault rifle isn’t there to put down the Predator, just to draw his attention and give Cap a long-range option. The same goes for the grenades, which include explosive and smoke options.

But Ultimate Cap’s primary weapon in this debate will be his always-iconic shield. Contrary to popular belief, Ultimate Cap’s shield is never directly stated to be composed of adamantium, but is simply referred to as being an indestructible metal. But just because it isn’t adamantium, doesn’t mean it isn’t durable as hell, as I’ll easily illustrate in the scan below.

wait, how are you planning on drawing his attention?

the Predator will be perched and ready to attack, and I can guarentee you that it will not lose track of it's prey in such an environment

also, when has Cap successfully shot an invisible target?

@veshark said:

.

Cap's shield tanks Mjolnir

Here we have Captain America’s shield sustaining a direct blow from Mjolnir, Thor’s magic hammer. Now as seen in the scan itself, Thor was being mind-controlled by Modi using an Infinity Gem, and Modi had ordered Thor to kill Cap. So this lightning smash here is clearly a killing blow, and the Thunder God isn’t some street-leveler either, he’s an Asgardian.

And yet despite all that, Cap’s shield is still able to take the blow with zero visible damage whatsoever, and in the next issue, we see that it’s fine, without a single scratch on it. I think it’s safe to say that nothing the Predator has in its arsenal, not even the plasma caster, can even penetrate Cap’s shield.

yeah, Ultimate Thor was pretty useless against The Hulk, so how impressive taht is would eb debatable

an yeah, don't guess we're really going for the shield

But now let’s segue on to the shield’s offensive capabilities. As I showed you in the Physicals section above, Cap’s own strength matched with the shield was able to knock out the 100-tonner Juggernaut with his helmet on. So there’s no question that if he hits the Predator’s helmet, it’s going to seriously hurt – the shield is indisputably tough. But Cap’s shield isn’t just restricted to bashing, as he can also throw it as a long-range weapon.

Now granted, Ultimate Cap doesn’t exercise his shield-throwing as much as 616-Cap, but that doesn’t mean he’s a slouch in this department either. To depict, here are two scans where Ultimate Cap throws his shield with enough force to lop the head off the Assemble cyborg.

Who is Assemble? A monstrosity with the powers of Thor, Hulk, and Giant-Man all rolled into one. An enemy that was giving the Ultimate X-Men serious trouble. And yet one single throw from Cap’s shield is able to deCAPitate the monster's head clean off (See what I did there? DeCAPitate? Get it? Get it? I'm hilarious.)

seriously, how is Cap mid-tier street level if he clearly possesses striking ability in excess of one hundred tons?

@veshark said:

Conclusion

So now that we’ve covered all of Cap’s capabilities and the equipment he’ll be packing; let’s apply that to how Ultimate Cap will take down the Predator. As I mentioned earlier, Ultimate Cap’s rifle and grenades will serve as an early distraction to draw the Predator’s attention to him. But the permanent means of putting down the Predator will boil down to Cap’s physical skills and his shield. I’ve already shown that Steve is very powerful in terms of his physical conditioning and offensive capabilities, and his shield should be able to take whatever the Yautja throws at him, as well as rebuff with his own counterattacks.

Your turn, @cadencev2. Get 'em.

no, the grenades will not draw him out (how does that even make any sense? I am seriously perplexed by how you thought that was a rational plan)

The predator has survived far worse barrages with minimal damage

so yeah, Cap is going to waste his ammunition

@veshark said:

@betatesthighlander1

Ooh-kay...have you done a CaV before, man? You're supposed to read my argument, then come up with a counterargument. Like a basic rundown of your character's capabilities, and then why you disagree with my points, and how your character would win, with backing from feats. You can't just drop down a bunch of questions and unverified claims like that. For the sake of argument, I'll address them, though you should keep that in mind...

okay, yeah, fine, The Jungle Hunter

a basic guide to his weaponry

okay, so,

Cloaking Device

I should note that his eyes don't usually glow like that, but if they were not the picture would be worthless

it makes the thing damn near invisible

Wrist blades

can seriously mess people up (was seen cutting through some people in the movie)

they are blades...that come out of his wrists

Plasma Caster

can fire accurately a good couple hundred feat, with enough power to turn a Human torso into a smoldering hole

Spear gun

a secondary ranged weapon, it has also been seen with some major penetration

Bio Mask

pretty much just allows him to breath

Voice mimicry

he can imitate the voices of others, draw your guys into place with by imitating Black Spider-man

Self destruct Device

yes, he can make large explosions with this baby

for scale

Medi kit

he has medicine in their, can fix basi wounds

Physical stuff

he's strong enough to physically tear out a man's spine

so that should be useful (than again, Cap apparently has durability in excess of 100 tons of pressure, so maybe not)

He's agile enough o jump into the jungle to evade gunfire (already showed you that)

and he can tank bullets like champ

@veshark said:

The problem with cloaking is this. Look at the image of the city block battlefield. We have an entire stretch of flooded road, and as we all know, even the slightest bit of water disrupts the Predator's cloaking. Now I know one can argue that the Predator might go off to the side of the road or use the buildings as cover, but the fact is that the water creates an obvious geographical disadvantage for your Yautja's 'stealth strategy'. Another factor to take into account is we have to realize this isn't your typical Predator hunting scenario, so would the Predator cloak instead of just engaging in direct combat? If both teams start out in visual contact and Cap begins goading the Yautja, I don't see why the Predator wouldn't get into CQC like its fight with Arnie.

untrue, The Predator was hunting in the Rainforest for at least a couple months with no damage to his cloak until he fell off a cliff, into a river

I mean, am I not driving the Predator in this scenario?

anyways, he could totally make it to the buildings and hide, than merely snipe his way from there

@veshark said:

Even if, for the sake of argument, the Predator does begin cloaking, I believe that Cap possesses enough senses to detect and react to the alien. Whether or not Cap has the 'stealth to evade the Predator' isn't the question here, because Cap is a straight-up fighter, not a hit-and-run combatant like the Yautja. Now the thing one has to take into account is that the Predator's cloaking isn't perfect. It refracts light, but a vague silhouette can still be seen, almost like a heat-wave. It's theorized that's why Predators prefer hunting in humid tropical locations, because their cloaking works better in the heat. But in these conditions, given what appears to be a cold overcast climate, I argue that Ultimate Cap will have no trouble at least discerning the Predator. I mean, even the guys from Predator 2 were able to notice the cloaked Yautja, right?

have you seen Predator 2? because it's fairly obvious that their cloaking works just fine in New York

and the "guys" in predator 2 had special eye-ware to detect predators, so that doesn't apply very well

and if Cap charges, he can't very well defends his head and kneecaps at the same time

so I'm seeing the Yautja going to town

@veshark said:

So to summarize, even in the off-chance that the Predator does cloak, Cap will still be able to detect and react to the Predator. And before you say that the Predator might shoot invisible long-range weapons, bear in mind that the cloaking effect only lasts for a few seconds for the Pred's weapons, giving plenty of time for Cap to react. I've already shown Captain America reacting to gunfire, so just to nail home his perceptive capabilities, here's a scan of him dodging near-360 degree gunfire without taking a single hit:

it';s not really an off-chance

and the cloaking effect lasts pretty indefinately, not just for a few seconds

@veshark said:

And if it does boil down to close-combat, Cap still has the advantage there. He's won more fights and has more feats to show, whereas the Jungle Hunter has hunting a bunch of soldiers at best, before being offed by a tree log. Cap has depicted a greater display of strength, and durability, not to mention fighting skill (Red Guardian, Nuke, Kleiser, Abdul), and is referred to in the Ultimate Handbook as having 'mastered multiple martial arts'. All the Predator has shown is beat up poor Arnold, and his crappy durability when he got crushed by a log (and don't give me that immobilized nonsense, because the Pred was obviously mortally wounded, because why would it set off the self-destruct otherwise?).

wow, those people are clearly horrible at shooting

you know who else took hundreds of rounds without being hit?

also, I think the Pred self-destructed so that he realized Arnie could kill him whenever he wanted to

or maybe so Humans would never get Yautja tech

#38 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Yeah I'll have it up in a bit, I was tryin to make a gif but failed because I'm bad at the game of life

#39 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 @veshark @betatesthighlander1:

ALRIGHT LET'S GET THIS SHOW ON THE ROAD

Avatar "I got it on with Katara" Aang, the Last Airbender but not really because I'm a conspiracy theorist and the eastern airbenders are still alive goddammit

Equipment

Avatar Aang has his traditional glider-staff.

It flies via his air, and is both highly maneuverable and extremely fast; he very easily dodges attacks with it. It can also become a melee staff, which he uses to create air blades

Skills

Aang is the Avatar, the only person who can bend more than one element, and a master in each element.

Airbending

Aang is the unequaled master of air; he can create tornadoes or hurricanes

destroy boulders with blasts of air

create funnels of air that fire projectiles at incredible speeds

create air blades that easily cut through solid metal/rock

pull people to his location with enough force to overpower an extremely powerful electromagnet (20 tons or more, easily) (<-- I don't know where I got that...I'll keep looking for the source)

levitate and fly (obviously)

create vortexes that throw anything and everything out of them

fly in air spheres and easily break through solid rock, etc, etc, etc.

Earthbending

Aang can throw massive boulders at his opponents at incredibly high speeds

create enormous chasms

and encase himself in a shield of earth strong enough that Phoenix Lord Ozai, who had been shown to easily melt rock (on average enough to easily melt the human body; 1300 degrees Celsius) had to sustain fire on it for an extended period of time -presumably, Aang drew up metals through the earth.

Aang can constrict the movements of his enemies with earth shackles

Aang also has seismic sense.

Seismic Sense is a near-instantaneous viewing of one's surroundings; anything that is connected to the earth can be viewed, as proved by Lin Bei Fong's showings of it. Using this, Aang can sense his enemies miles away and through solid rock.

Aang can also create earth armor/crystal armor, incredibly durable

And raise large earth shields

Firebending

Aang is a proficient firebender; in the graphic novel The Promise he was shown to be easily on par with Fire Lord Zuko.

Waterbending

Aang is also a proficient waterbender. He can easily freeze people

As long as there is a water source nearby (and there is; the city block is flooded in the pic) Aang will be pretty BAMF.

SKILLZZZZ

Besides being a bender, Aang is also extremely fast.

As shown here:

Aang is actually leaping across at about half the speed of the lightning bolt! By the time it reaches him he's completed the lunge, has somersaulted over, and starts the redirection.

The lowest possible speed for lightning is Mach 30 if it's the leader stroke, putting Aang at speeds of about MACH 15!

Now, since this feat is hotly contested, I'm just going to pre-empt some responses here:

1) Aang has never displayed this speed before

FALSE. Aang is incredibly fast and easily dodges arrows and catapult shots, and dodges lightning from Fire Lord Zuko in The Promise iirc. Moreover, this is the leader stroke and during a humid day, putting its speed at minimum Mach 30.

2) This is aim dodging

FALSE. As shown, Aang was literally looking the other way when Fire Lord Ozai actually did the bending for the lightning, as he was flipping backwards from a previous attack; he saw the lightning and then reacted.

3) Just because he dodged it doesn't mean he's going that fast

FALSE. Again, Aang managed to flip backwards in the same space of time that the lightning took to travel half the distance, making his movements around 50% as fast as that of the lightning.

4) We don't know it's real lightning

FALSE. Fire benders can bend lightning coming directly from the sky, AND their lightning has been used to power electrical machines. Firstly, this means they obviously CAN bend 'real lightning' so it makes no sense for this NOT to be real lightning. Secondly, since their lightning can power electrical machines this gives it a chemical composition of plasma that would essentially mean it has to be moving FAR FASTER than Mach 30, but I won't use this.

Aang is also stronger and more durable than a normal person

And both incredibly agile AND trained in martial arts; Firebending is Shaolin Kung Fu, Waterbending is Tai Chi, Earthbending is Hung Gar Kung Fu, and Baguazhang (circle walking) is airbending.

Strategy:

Aang will begin with some basic earth shackles

And a freeze-cage-thing

While simultaneously covering himself in crystal armor

Starting a vortex above Miles

And unleashing a basic blast of fire

This will start Miles off on the extreme wrong foot, and give Aang a variety of HUGE advantages.

1) Spider Sense:

Though I admit I've only read one volume of Superior Spiderman along with some random Amazing Spiderman titles, I do know that Spidey's Spider Sense isn't infallible.

The earth shackles are definitely going to catch him off guard, as I doubt Miles has faced such an attack before. If the Spidey Sense doesn't alert him, it's game over, man, game over!

And if the Spider Sense does alert him and he jumps, flips, or webslings up, he's going to have to dodge a freeze-cocoon. And just like Azula, he's not going to have any momentum to dodge it; the fireblast will have destroyed his webbing and he won't be able to push off the ground because he just did to get away from the earth shackle, meaning he's in the air and can only twist to try and get away from the huge freeze cocoon.

Even if he does get away from the freeze cocoon, he'll be in the air and tossed around by the vortex which was ripping trees out of the ground -there's no chance Miles will be able to get out of it before Aang does another AoE freeze cocoon!

2) Poison Touch

As formidable as Miles' poison touch is, crystal or earth armor (something Aang has used on multiple occasions) or even a basic shield will nullify this completely.

3) Speed

As I have shown, Aang is faster than Spidey at a comfortable Mach 15; add this to Aang's formidable skill and training in martial arts (which is always an enormous advantage) and his enormous versatility and Miles is going to be playing defensive allll daaaay long.

#40 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium: Cool, we have a match.

Lightning Feat

Also I do not see a problem with the feat except Aang has never in the entire show move faster than 500 fps. Never have we seen combat speed in the show where he is a blur of movement at all. So in a sense, this is a one time feat. Arrows of Avatar time frame are 200-250 FPS. Compact Bows of today are in the 400-500 FPS mark. Humans, real life humans, can and have caught arrows of those 200-250 FPS speeds. I think it is a one time deal and was more awe factor than anything. Since I am a huge Avatar fan with every season, I see no reason why Aang will be faster than Miles when both Zuko and Azula have forced Aang on the defensive with their peak human speeds.

I will not argue Strength nor Durability as the whole of the Avatar Series have people taking hits from attacks that would wreck a car lol. Its a world of super humans in half of a ton strength and a ton of force durability.

Aang biggest advantage is also his versatility in bending. However Miles is not without his own advantages in stats which are still superior and the fact he has Spider sense to help stay aware of any attack.

Though I admit I've only read one volume of Superior Spiderman along with some random Amazing Spiderman titles, I do know that Spidey's Spider Sense isn't infallible.

The earth shackles are definitely going to catch him off guard, as I doubt Miles has faced such an attack before. If the Spidey Sense doesn't alert him, it's game over, man, game over!

Spider Sense is only helpful for imminent danger, so no surprise attacks will come. As for earth shackles.... what are they going to do?

.

Lifts a ton of steel frame cop car, loaded with all the crap they are loaded with, and has 500 pounds of people in it with ease. Then throws it hard enough to nock a bus on its side! 3-4 ton strength right there. Your little rock cuffs are not holding Miles.

Nor will any Ice either which is far weaker in strength to rock.

Then the problem with this trick is Miles will stay on the buildings after this. He is very intelligent and will use stealth right after to deal with Aang.

Like he stealthed spider Man when he could not take him upfront.

Stealths Prowler to find a new avenue of attack.

Strealths Cops in plain sight.

Even Giant Woman with her enlarge eyesight could not see Miles, only his foot prints in the tall grass.

Perfect Invisibility. Aang has no real way to deal with that.

And if the Spider Sense does alert him and he jumps, flips, or webslings up, he's going to have to dodge a freeze-cocoon. And just like Azula, he's not going to have any momentum to dodge it; the fireblast will have destroyed his webbing and he won't be able to push off the ground because he just did to get away from the earth shackle, meaning he's in the air and can only twist to try and get away from the huge freeze cocoon.

Considering Miles dodges bullets and Aang at best arrows. I think Miles can manage. 250 FPS Aang < 1250 FPS Miles.

.

Bullet Speed > Arrow or Flame Thrower speed.

Even if he does get away from the freeze cocoon, he'll be in the air and tossed around by the vortex which was ripping trees out of the ground -there's no chance Miles will be able to get out of it before Aang does another AoE freeze cocoon!

I think his Webs and Invisibility can help with that.

Heck Cap with a Mach speed shield Throw can help Miles. They have team work!

Bamsky!

2) Poison Touch

As formidable as Miles' poison touch is, crystal or earth armor (something Aang has used on multiple occasions) or even a basic shield will nullify this completely.

Its called Venom Sting.

Why is rock armor immune, there is no crystal here, when Plastic is not?

How about Steel?

Or how about Steel Toe Boots?

So why is Rock Armor immune?

3) Speed

As I have shown, Aang is faster than Spidey at a comfortable Mach 15; add this to Aang's formidable skill and training in martial arts (which is always an enormous advantage) and his enormous versatility and Miles is going to be playing defensive allll daaaay long.

Miles fought many martial artist of incredible degree.

Prowler and Scorpion are highly skilled fighters. Scoprion is super human in stats as well.

Prowler gets bested by a holding back Miles who just started his career as Spider Man. This is 13 year old Miles 3rd fight! Stats baby. And the held back Venom Sting!

Here is Miles 4th fight with zero skill still. Beat the superhuman Scorpion Crime Lord.

H2H is going to Miles. Miles has been better train since these fights, has superior stats, Invisibility, and a one touch Venom Sting. There is no way Aang is winning hand to hand.

#41 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2:

Alright

Lightning Feat

Your only problem is that Aang has never displayed this sort of speed...right?

Well, my response is that he hasn't needed to. I mean, think about it; Aang has dodged, flipped, or blocked 99% of attacks in the show; he's pretty much untouchable. There are no low-end feats of him being tagged by arrows that would make this Mach 15 feat invalid where he's in perfect condition.

Superman has only ever benched the earth on one occasion, yet we know he can do this because it's his upper limit. It's not like Thor reacting to lightspeed attacks while simultaneously being blitzed by Mongoose; Superman has never really struggled with anything, and the most he's benched is the earth, so we safely say that Superman's strength limit is...the earth.

Similarly, though Aang has only ever moved at the speed of lightning on one occasion, he's never really struggled dodging other things, so we can safely say his limit IS the speed of lightning.

And it is, for all intents and purposes, a COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE FEAT.

Shackles, Cocoon, etc.

Arm strength=/=Leg strength, first of all.

Most avatar series chars have 1-2 ton strength (especially earthbenders) yet earth shackles continue to be effective, even on enormous beasts such as Appa and the one weird smeller thing.

Even if it doesn't hold Miles permanently it's definitely going to slow him down; Miles will be like 'what the-' and then spend a good second breaking free, and Aang will already be laying down his frost cocoon (which will also slow Miles down, as it ensnared the 1 tonner Azula), vortex, etc.

Miles isn't going to have any time to get up onto the buildings due to the air vortex -he'll be ensnared by the earth shackles for a brief second, the cocoons for a brief second, will be trapped due to the air vortex, and simply blasted from all fronts.

Invisibility

Seismic Sense. Miles won't be able to get into the air due to air currents, vortexes and other massive AoE attacks that will be forcing him onto the ground, and Aang can sense him with seismic sense, negating invisibility.

Venom Sting

Alright. So first of all, the earthen shield Aang used against Ozai/the crystal armor is considerably thicker than anything Miles has gotten through to date -heck, in the Earthen Shield Aang wasn't even touching the insides.

But as shown in the boot instance, the guy has time to say 'what was that' and Miles to explain; I timed myself saying that and it was a good 5 seconds -and at the speed this fight is going at, if Miles manages to tag Aang Aang is going to dominate him with blasts/earthbending at close range.

Skill

I'm not saying Aang is going to beat Miles purely based off of skill, but you can't deny that it gives him an advantage.

As awesome as Miles beating skilled people is, Aang's skill is still going to help; he's been trained in four martial arts and has a lot more technique than Miles does.

#42 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio
#43 Posted by Veshark (9057 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1

Ultimate Cap's Feats

In regards to the two scans of Ultimate Captain America knocking Juggernaut out, there's a middle scan in between of Wolverine using a triceratops to headbutt Juggernaut, thus allowing Cap to get up. I elected to ignore it because I wasn't using this feat as 'look at Cap beating up Juggernaut' so much as 'This is Cap's striking power'. You're more than welcome to check Ultimates 3 if you don't believe me. And just because Cap with his shield is capable of knocking out Juggs doesn't make him a '100-tonner'. 616 Captain America can knock Namor out with his shield. Does that make him a 100-tonner? Batman can knock out Gorilla Grodd. Does that make him a 100-tonner?

As for the Abomination, it doesn't matter whether or not he's explicitly as powerful as the Hulk. The fact is that this monster was obviously a powerhouse-level villain, and yet Cap managed to survive his attack. Abomination saving him for the Colonel doesn't make a difference because we've been visually shown the extent of his attack. You're telling me that an ordinary man would've been able to survive a two-fisted blow as well as being hurled through the wall? You're also forgetting that Cap already sustained a beating from super-soldiers and was drugged prior this. But you want more durability feats? Well all you had to do was ask:

In the third panel, Ultimate Cap's face takes a direct blow from Ultimate Hulk, and doesn't crack like an egg. I think I don't have to remind you of Hulk's own strength, and this time around, you can't make the excuse that Bruce was holding back (because why would he?). And have you already forgotten the Juggernaut feat showcasing Cap taking a beating from Juggs and still being able to KO him (Cap's dressed in Black Panther's costume, by the way, because he was undercover in that issue)?

Let's move on to the Hawkeye deflection feat. And come on, huh? We're debating between a flag-wearing super-soldier and a Jamaican-looking alien hunter, you're going to start talking about 'implausible'? And regardless, I never said they were as fast as bullets, all I said was that they were tranquilizers being fired by an expert marksman. The fact that Cap was able to deflect them straight back is what makes his reflexes notable. What, you want me to show a scan of Cap dodging bullets? Well again, all you had to do was ask:

Two scans of Cap being fast enough to react to fire from War Machine's drones using his shield. Three separate remote-controlled drones using some of the most advanced tech in the Ultimate Marvel universe, not some soldiers. And Cap is still able to run while blocking, showing his reaction time to bullet speed.

I don't really get what you don't understand about 'drawing attention'. If Cap wants to fight the Yautja while leaving Aang to Miles, what he'll do is start shooting and throwing grenades at the Predator. Obviously the Pred will respond by registering him as a threat and either attacking are hunting, right, or are you telling me he's just going to stand there and take it? And I never said anything about him 'losing track of his prey'...I don't know where you're getting that from. Refer to the rest of my argument for how Cap will attack him.

And please please don't try to lowball Thor. First and foremost, that was Thor's first encounter with Banner, so obviously he was holding back. Second, 'useless' doesn't translate to a broken jaw, cracked ribs, and a punctured lung on the Hulk's part. Finally, we see Thor get tossed aside, and then Cap activates his plan, preventing Thor from prolonging the battle. You want a quick reminder of what Thor's power can truly do? Enjoy:

And again, being able to beat up stronger enemies doesn't mean you're in the same weight class as them! Raw strength does not equal striking power+equipment.

The Predator's Feats

And really now, you're using that video to justify the Predator taking bullets? We see the soldier totally lose his cool and begin firing wildly with absolutely no aiming skills whatsoever (even the greenest grunt knows shooting from the hip is a dumb idea). And it's not even as though we see the Predator dodging the bullets, the alien just scurries into the jungle and vanishes! You have absolutely zero proof that the Predator was still there 'surviving the barrage' when it most-likely had already ran far away. So yeah, hardly an impressive showing. And let's note that the black soldier clearly noticed the Predator at first, despite its cloaking. Cool scene though.

Cloaking Device: The black soldier noticed it, and the Predator frequently makes the eye-glow thing to scare its victims. Wrist blades are useless, Cap can heal from knife wounds in a few minutes. Plasma caster? Cap can dodge bullets, I doubt a giant blue light will be able to hit him. Same goes for the spear gun. The rest are irrelevant.

That strength feat isn't particularly impressive, and again, we have nothing but conjecture that the Predator ran into the jungle and evaded gunfire, for all we know he just ran off. Also, you might want to show an explicit instance of the Predator tanking bullets if you want to strengthen your case.

As for the cloaking, I never said water permanently damages it, I said it temporarily disrupts the cloaking and that the cloak can only be reengaged when the Predator is out of the water. And (I can't believe I'm explaining this) while you are controlling the character, read the battle conditions. They clearly state in-character. You can control your character to do anything as long as it is within the bounds of his established personality. For instance, if Cadence wanted Miles to start with lethal force, he wouldn't be able to, because Miles has never shown that degree of ruthlessness before. The same applies here. I'm not saying that the Predator can't stalk instead, but given the conditions and its past behavior, I think it's fair to argue it would engage in direct combat if Cap challenges him ala Arnie.

Moving on. I never said that the cloak didn't work in the city, I said that it's not as undetectable as you're making it sound. It's camouflage, not invisibility, so it's not a stretch to suggest that Cap can notice it. And don't bullets disrupt the cloak, if memory serves me right? I also have zero idea why you're talking about kneecaps, so you might want to expound on that. Mea culpa on Predator 2 though, I'd forgotten about that.

And the cloaking effect does not last indefinitely for long-range weapons. If the Predator throws his weapons, they materialize after a few seconds. In AvP, we see one Predator's spear materializing in mid-air. In Predator 1, the Yautja's plasma caster bolts are obviously uncloaked, as are his wrist blades when he activates them. So boo-yah.

And really, that's all you have to offer in rebuttal? 'They suck at shooting'? And come on, Arnie is a badass, don't bring him into this (seriously don't, because it doesn't help your argument whatsoever)! And for the self-destruct, it doesn't matter, as the point still remains that the Jungle Hunter here got beaten by a single soldier using Home Alone-style traps while Cap has beaten tons of superhuman enemies, with the feats to prove it.

Conclusion

So, to conclude? Cap has the advantage in terms of physicals as well as actual feats. None of the Yautja's weapons are anything that Cap can't handle, while Steve's shield and strength will prove fatal to the alien hunter. All your argument has done was try to lowball Ultimate Cap's showings, and giving me one vague and ill-defined argument about the Predator surviving a barrage, and him tearing out a dying ordinary human's spine, a feat far less impressive than anything Cap has accomplished strength-wise.

@cadencev2 Batter up.

#44 Posted by Veshark (9057 posts) - - Show Bio
#45 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@betatesthighlander1 @cadencev2 @thedarklordpandamonium

Oohkay....I guess we're ignoring the order of posting. I guess that was possibly my fault.

Okay screw it, everyone post soon as your opponent comes up with a counterargument.

huh?

hey man, I was in the middle fo making a comment, your mixing everything up

#46 Posted by Veshark (9057 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@betatesthighlander1 @cadencev2 @thedarklordpandamonium

Oohkay....I guess we're ignoring the order of posting. I guess that was possibly my fault.

Okay screw it, everyone post soon as your opponent comes up with a counterargument.

huh?

hey man, I was in the middle fo making a comment, your mixing everything up

It was supposed to be Me-Cadence-You-Darklord, but the order got mixed up when Cadence/Darklord replied before it was your turn.

I never even got to reply, which is why I just did. So now you counter my argument, because we're forgetting the order.

#47 Posted by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark:

I SORRY

I DID NOT KNOW

*commits seppuku*

#48 Posted by Veshark (9057 posts) - - Show Bio
#49 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio
@veshark said:

@betatesthighlander1

Ultimate Cap's Feats

In regards to the two scans of Ultimate Captain America knocking Juggernaut out, there's a middle scan in between of Wolverine using a triceratops to headbutt Juggernaut, thus allowing Cap to get up. I elected to ignore it because I wasn't using this feat as 'look at Cap beating up Juggernaut' so much as 'This is Cap's striking power'. You're more than welcome to check Ultimates 3 if you don't believe me. And just because Cap with his shield is capable of knocking out Juggs doesn't make him a '100-tonner'. 616 Captain America can knock Namor out with his shield. Does that make him a 100-tonner? Batman can knock out Gorilla Grodd. Does that make him a 100-tonner?

okay, so wouldn't that make the scan kinda pointless?

because your kind of saying that his striking power does not accurately gauge his striking power, kinda makes it hard to decipher the feat

and yeah, I have read Ulltimates 3, I and that seems like something I would remember

@veshark said:

As for the Abomination, it doesn't matter whether or not he's explicitly as powerful as the Hulk. The fact is that this monster was obviously a powerhouse-level villain, and yet Cap managed to survive his attack. Abomination saving him for the Colonel doesn't make a difference because we've been visually shown the extent of his attack. You're telling me that an ordinary man would've been able to survive a two-fisted blow as well as being hurled through the wall? You're also forgetting that Cap already sustained a beating from super-soldiers and was drugged prior this. But you want more durability feats? Well all you had to do was ask

okay, so, I pointed out that your logic was flawed, taht's all I did

I neevr mentioned what a normal man could or could not take, just pointed out that what you said was not correct

In the third panel, Ultimate Cap's face takes a direct blow from Ultimate Hulk, and doesn't crack like an egg. I think I don't have to remind you of Hulk's own strength, and this time around, you can't make the excuse that Bruce was holding back (because why would he?). And have you already forgotten the Juggernaut feat showcasing Cap taking a beating from Juggs and still being able to KO him (Cap's dressed in Black Panther's costume, by the way, because he was undercover in that issue)?

okay, first off, do no remind me of the "plot" of Ultimates 3

although I would ask if the Ultimate Panther costume has any armor in it (the 616 version does, not sure about the Ultimate, haven't read that far)

anyways, I recall Cap giving a pretty long list of injuries that he received from that battle

@veshark said:

Let's move on to the Hawkeye deflection feat. And come on, huh? We're debating between a flag-wearing super-soldier and a Jamaican-looking alien hunter, you're going to start talking about 'implausible'? And regardless, I never said they were as fast as bullets, all I said was that they were tranquilizers being fired by an expert marksman. The fact that Cap was able to deflect them straight back is what makes his reflexes notable. What, you want me to show a scan of Cap dodging bullets? Well again, all you had to do was ask:

Two scans of Cap being fast enough to react to fire from War Machine's drones using his shield. Three separate remote-controlled drones using some of the most advanced tech in the Ultimate Marvel universe, not some soldiers. And Cap is still able to run while blocking, showing his reaction time to bullet speed.

"gunfire" tends to imply bullets, you wouldn't use it to describe the discharge from a Glue Gun or a Water Gun, and you shouldn't use it to describe tranquilizer guns

do the War Machine drones manage to hit any of their targets in that barrage?

because not I see none, and dodging something that never hit anything is hardly a feat

@veshark said:

I don't really get what you don't understand about 'drawing attention'. If Cap wants to fight the Yautja while leaving Aang to Miles, what he'll do is start shooting and throwing grenades at the Predator. Obviously the Pred will respond by registering him as a threat and either attacking are hunting, right, or are you telling me he's just going to stand there and take it? And I never said anything about him 'losing track of his prey'...I don't know where you're getting that from. Refer to the rest of my argument for how Cap will attack him.

I thought I was automatically going for you

but yeah, I guess he's probably going to up-and-kill Cap

that being said, firing randomly at an invisible target doesn't usually work

I know I showed that already, but you seemed to have totally ignored the Pred's stealth

@veshark said:

And please please don't try to lowball Thor. First and foremost, that was Thor's first encounter with Banner, so obviously he was holding back. Second, 'useless' doesn't translate to a broken jaw, cracked ribs, and a punctured lung on the Hulk's part. Finally, we see Thor get tossed aside, and then Cap activates his plan, preventing Thor from prolonging the battle. You want a quick reminder of what Thor's power can truly do? Enjoy:

yeah, Thor's doing that with his lightning, you showed me Cap blocking a strike from his mhammer

that's like saying someone is tougher than steel because Cyclops can destroy it with his optic blasts, and teh guy survived a punch from Cyclops

@veshark said:

And again, being able to beat up stronger enemies doesn't mean you're in the same weight class as them! Raw strength does not equal striking power+equipment.

uhm, if Juggernaut's head is ahrder than steel, and Cap can smash it, that means he should be able to s,mash steel

meaning that either his strength and speed should be far above what was described

@veshark said:

The Predator's Feats

And really now, you're using that video to justify the Predator taking bullets? We see the soldier totally lose his cool and begin firing wildly with absolutely no aiming skills whatsoever (even the greenest grunt knows shooting from the hip is a dumb idea). And it's not even as though we see the Predator dodging the bullets, the alien just scurries into the jungle and vanishes! You have absolutely zero proof that the Predator was still there 'surviving the barrage' when it most-likely had already ran far away. So yeah, hardly an impressive showing. And let's note that the black soldier clearly noticed the Predator at first, despite its cloaking. Cool scene though.

so, do real world rules apply, or do they not? because you don't need to be a soldier to know that Shields are never used on modern battlefields, so I think Cap is far behind anyone in that movie in terms of strategy

and these people had plenty of accuracy feats for hip-firing (I already showed that),so obviously they can hit stuff taht way

and yeah, my point is it had run away and nobody would notice

just Like how Cap will have no idea if he is or isn't shooting at the Yautja

@veshark said:

Cloaking Device: The black soldier noticed it, and the Predator frequently makes the eye-glow thing to scare its victims. Wrist blades are useless, Cap can heal from knife wounds in a few minutes. Plasma caster? Cap can dodge bullets, I doubt a giant blue light will be able to hit him. Same goes for the spear gun. The rest are irrelevant.

okay, my problems are

1. you depend on my guy acting like an idiot, I might as well assume that Cap will just stand there and give a speech

2. so Cap is immune to having his heart cut out? that makes fighting him...difficult

3. yeah, you haven't actually shown me a scan of Cap dodging a bullet, so that's conjecture

4. so will Cap respond to his partner's voice or not?

@veshark said:

As for the cloaking, I never said water permanently damages it, I said it temporarily disrupts the cloaking and that the cloak can only be reengaged when the Predator is out of the water. And (I can't believe I'm explaining this) while you are controlling the character, read the battle conditions. They clearly state in-character. You can control your character to do anything as long as it is within the bounds of his established personality. For instance, if Cadence wanted Miles to start with lethal force, he wouldn't be able to, because Miles has never shown that degree of ruthlessness before. The same applies here. I'm not saying that the Predator can't stalk instead, but given the conditions and its past behavior, I think it's fair to argue it would engage in direct combat if Cap challenges him ala Arnie.

It challenged one guy specifically because it was bored, but never anything co blatant as just dropping weapons and fighting a guy just cause

and I would question whether or not you've seen the movie, because there was never a challenge between them, The Predator was disabled by the traps layed by Arnie, resorted to physical stuff

so your argument depends on my character acting like he never had

so, yeah, there's that

@veshark said:

Moving on. I never said that the cloak didn't work in the city, I said that it's not as undetectable as you're making it sound. It's camouflage, not invisibility, so it's not a stretch to suggest that Cap can notice it. And don't bullets disrupt the cloak, if memory serves me right? I also have zero idea why you're talking about kneecaps, so you might want to expound on that. Mea culpa on Predator 2 though, I'd forgotten about that.

you deeply implied that it would not work in the city

I'm saying that no mater how Cap holds his shield, parts of him will be exposed

@veshark said:

And the cloaking effect does not last indefinitely for long-range weapons. If the Predator throws his weapons, they materialize after a few seconds. In AvP, we see one Predator's spear materializing in mid-air. In Predator 1, the Yautja's plasma caster bolts are obviously uncloaked, as are his wrist blades when he activates them. So boo-yah.\

you mean....projectiles?

because it would have been a lot more clear if you said Projectiles, as is I thought you were saying that his cannon just turned visible

@veshark said:

And really, that's all you have to offer in rebuttal? 'They suck at shooting'? And come on, Arnie is a badass, don't bring him into this (seriously don't, because it doesn't help your argument whatsoever)! And for the self-destruct, it doesn't matter, as the point still remains that the Jungle Hunter here got beaten by a single soldier using Home Alone-style traps while Cap has beaten tons of superhuman enemies, with the feats to prove it.

Predator killed five people with Bullet evasion feast as good as anything you've shown for Cap

and Thor was beaten by Mantis, but I doubt Mantis could beat The Thing, please stop powerscaling (and now your trying to say Annie is not a baddass?)

also, did I say he would sue the self-destruct?

because I don't recall talking about that, your rebuttal seems a bit superfluous

@veshark said:

Conclusion

So, to conclude? Cap has the advantage in terms of physicals as well as actual feats. None of the Yautja's weapons are anything that Cap can't handle, while Steve's shield and strength will prove fatal to the alien hunter. All your argument has done was try to lowball Ultimate Cap's showings, and giving me one vague and ill-defined argument about the Predator surviving a barrage, and him tearing out a dying ordinary human's spine, a feat far less impressive than anything Cap has accomplished strength-wise.

@cadencev2 Batter up.

so, Cap can tank having his chest turned into a crater? because that kind of makes him impossible to debate against

again, I was just pointing out that the Predator was very difficult to locate, and it's not actually any easier to tear the spine out of a fresh corps in comparison to a living human

just saying

and I should point out that you've lowballed as many of Cap's feats as I have, since you have to keep someone with class 100 striking power within previously mentioned limits

#50 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedarklordpandamonium:

Lightning Feat

Your only problem is that Aang has never displayed this sort of speed...right?

Well, my response is that he hasn't needed to. I mean, think about it; Aang has dodged, flipped, or blocked 99% of attacks in the show; he's pretty much untouchable. There are no low-end feats of him being tagged by arrows that would make this Mach 15 feat invalid where he's in perfect condition.

This is flat false.

The archers of Yu Yang with arrows caught the Avatar who was DESPERATELY trying to avoid them to save his friends.

Seriously.

Superman has only ever benched the earth on one occasion, yet we know he can do this because it's his upper limit. It's not like Thor reacting to lightspeed attacks while simultaneously being blitzed by Mongoose; Superman has never really struggled with anything, and the most he's benched is the earth, so we safely say that Superman's strength limit is...the earth.

Similarly, though Aang has only ever moved at the speed of lightning on one occasion, he's never really struggled dodging other things, so we can safely say his limit IS the speed of lightning.

Negative, I think the superman feat of Benching Earth is BS as he showes no feats "consistent" with it at all.

And it is, for all intents and purposes, a COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE FEAT.

No, it really is not. PIS is PIS.

Shackles, Cocoon, etc.

Arm strength=/=Leg strength, first of all.

Most avatar series chars have 1-2 ton strength (especially earthbenders) yet earth shackles continue to be effective, even on enormous beasts such as Appa and the one weird smeller thing.

First off Earth Benders like Lin Bei who had her Earth bending taken away was no 1-2 toner. This is false. Earth benders seem strong because of their Bending.

Even if it doesn't hold Miles permanently it's definitely going to slow him down; Miles will be like 'what the-' and then spend a good second breaking free, and Aang will already be laying down his frost cocoon (which will also slow Miles down, as it ensnared the 1 tonner Azula), vortex, etc.

Second? Like 1/10th of a second if that. He will just ripped out of it. again the cocoon will do nothing as Ice is weaker than Rock.

Miles isn't going to have any time to get up onto the buildings due to the air vortex -he'll be ensnared by the earth shackles for a brief second, the cocoons for a brief second, will be trapped due to the air vortex, and simply blasted from all fronts.

Not really, he can easily pull out of it with his strength and webs. He can stealth half way in the maneuver. Heck he can stealth the moment he breaks free on the ground. Aang has NEVER fought Invisibility before. he would not know what to make of the move.

Invisibility

Seismic Sense. Miles won't be able to get into the air due to air currents, vortexes and other massive AoE attacks that will be forcing him onto the ground, and Aang can sense him with seismic sense, negating invisibility.

Again show me Aang doing this. this is assumption that Toph taught him this as he never showed to know the move. Avatar =/= Master Bender of every art!

I know you have no feats of Seismic for Aang. He never was said or shown to learn that move at all. In Fact just to throw salt on the wound, only Lin Bei showed that move when none of her officers could either. Toph taught that move to one person, her daughter and thats it.

Venom Sting

Alright. So first of all, the earthen shield Aang used against Ozai/the crystal armor is considerably thicker than anything Miles has gotten through to date -heck, in the Earthen Shield Aang wasn't even touching the insides.

But as shown in the boot instance, the guy has time to say 'what was that' and Miles to explain; I timed myself saying that and it was a good 5 seconds -and at the speed this fight is going at, if Miles manages to tag Aang Aang is going to dominate him with blasts/earthbending at close range.

Where is he getting crystal? Your making this crap up! Aang only had crystal armor becuase he was in a cave of Crystals! Also Crystal < Steel. Miles has blown through Steel. There is not one thing as of yet his Venom sting cannot break down.

Did you see the Lego Feat? Plastic EXPLODED with his touch. Why is Rocks immune? Also I showed feats of it traveling through Steel and Leather. Heck it travel through Webs!

There is NOTHING as of yet it cannot travel through.

Skill

I'm not saying Aang is going to beat Miles purely based off of skill, but you can't deny that it gives him an advantage.

I will not. Skill is a factor always.

As awesome as Miles beating skilled people is, Aang's skill is still going to help; he's been trained in four martial arts and has a lot more technique than Miles does.

You forget Miles has been trained by SHIELD to stay alive and not end up like Peter! He was trained enough to fight on the front line of the Ultimate's Offensive!

Heck he ends up beating a highly train SHIELD Giant Woman.