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#51 Posted by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92 said:

@vance_astro: Your move :). Or do you want to turn this over to votes?

Actually I forgot about this. I'm going to respond now.

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#52 Posted by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92 said:

Fair enough. My only argument was that he was also wrestling with a villain at the time so not only did he have to catch the two objects thrown ahead but also get passed Cobra.

He could have just thrown him to the side. They don't really show how he gets passed Cobra. Cobra is not only far weaker than Spider-Man but his weight is far under what Spider-Man can move.

Even pre-Other Spider-man seems to me to be beyond a 10-15tonner. Some of his pre-Other feats put him beyond that:

Lifting tanks, trains, military helicopters and pulling down buildings without much visible strain seems above 10tons to me. last time I checked tanks and trains weighed more than that! When Jess fought Pete he was holding back as he always does. Otto when he took over Spider-man's body that he must have been holding back for years. Even in Ends Of The Earth we saw Spider-man tear through 4 arms made from Carbonadium all of them a foot thick and without any leverage:

Feats like these are few and far between though. Some writers don't seem to consider how much strength it takes to do some of this stuff. Cage doesn't even have feats like this and he's class 25. I don't recall why we are even comparing strength. Jessica is obviously weaker than Otto. The question is what more is his strength going to lend him in this battle than greater attack power? He's not going to get into a wrestling match with her, because he'd put himself in harms way.

Considering Carbonadium is an Adamantium substitute and the same stuff Omega Red's coils are made from that requires far more than 10tons to rip through. I would say he is substantially stronger than Jess when unrestrained and Superior will not hold back nearly as much as Pete did.

Breaking carbonadium also requires more strength than Spider-Man has also. I've seen class 70\Class 100 characters struggle to break Omega Red's grip.

@vance_astro said:

Yea LOL. This is him....

Daddy Longlegs

rofl did he have any powers?

THAT IS his powers LOL! He's tall...

While it will not indefinitely you can't argue that this would limit the amount of pheromones he would take in. I'm not saying he could spend the whole fight with his breath held and beat her in that time i'm just saying that it is a viable way of decreasing the chances of him falling under the effects of her pheromones allowing him to deal out more of a fight.

I'm not arguing that holding his breath would limit the amount of pheromones you take in, I'm arguing that the tactic won't work. If he gets hit at all, he will stop holding his breath.

Actually it also reacts to people who want to hurt him even if he doesn't know it. For example after saving a woman he'd never met before from Absorbing Man his spider-sense told him that she was a threat even before she attacked:

So while it cannot read minds it can actually detect a threat before even Spider-man is aware of it even if said person hasn't done anything directly threatening. So it would most likely detect Jessica's ill intent.

I think this would go differently if he was under the influence of pheromones.

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#53 Edited by Strider92 (16605 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro said:

Feats like these are few and far between though. Some writers don't seem to consider how much strength it takes to do some of this stuff. Cage doesn't even have feats like this and he's class 25. I don't recall why we are even comparing strength. Jessica is obviously weaker than Otto. The question is what more is his strength going to lend him in this battle than greater attack power? He's not going to get into a wrestling match with her, because he'd put himself in harms way.

They are only few and far between because he rarely puts himself into a situation where he needs to completely exert himself. I disagree with them being few and far between i've given 7 examples of Spider-man exerting himself well beyond his apparent 10ton normality (most of which were whne he was angry or pushed). That to me is consistent. If he consistently performs beyond his abilities when not holding back I don't see how this is surprising. He should be quite a bit ahead of 10tons when not restrained.

We got in the comparing strength thing and I was just pointing out that given his feats Spider-man has a very big advantage in strength not a small one.

Why would he put himself in harms way if he got into a wrestle? She still needs to aim her attack and if someone who is most likely more than double her strength is grappling her it would be very hard for her to fight back.

@vance_astro said:

Breaking carbonadium also requires more strength than Spider-Man has also. I've seen class 70\Class 100 characters struggle to break Omega Red's grip.

Can you provide a scan of one of said classes struggling with Carbonadium? You are probably right the feat might be hyper-bowling but my point was that when unrestrained Spider-man has shown to be well beyond the 10tons he's branded with and to be honest when he's normally fighting crooks that he could probably kill with less than a quarter of his strength he'd be very used to holding back.

@vance_astro said:

@strider92 said:

@vance_astro said:

Yea LOL. This is him....

Daddy Longlegs

rofl did he have any powers?

THAT IS his powers LOL! He's tall...

I think someone I know has that power too.....:p

@vance_astro said:

I'm not arguing that holding his breath would limit the amount of pheromones you take in, I'm arguing that the tactic won't work. If he gets hit at all, he will stop holding his breath.

True but due to his "Superior" (couldn't resist) reaction speed I would think this would at least allow him to land a few extra blows on Jess before she landed the one that forced him to breath in.

@vance_astro said:

I think this would go differently if he was under the influence of pheromones.

It worked fine when Daken was using them on him and Daken's pheromones are arguably more dangerous as they actually change the way you perceive the environment around you. Jessica's ones play on your emotions which i've already shown aren't really a barrier to his spider-sense.

#54 Edited by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92 want to leave this in the hands of the people? Let them vote. I keep forgetting about this and I don't want to take up any more of your time with this.

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#55 Edited by Thedarklordpandamonium (4825 posts) - - Show Bio

Votes, yes?

I vote Vance.

#56 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: @strider92: Im leaning towards Vance in this case.

I just wanted to point out the Skrull showings.

As seen here Skrulls were able to map the Genetic Code and Supernatural Powers of the Heros Perfectly thru Skrull Science and Magic.

As seen below (Last Scan) They were able to Combine Powers (Super Skrulls) or Increase a Single Hero's Powers (Like Spider Woman) .

As seen here Skrull queen is a complete copy in Skills and Memories. However as she told the Avengers her powers were Increase from Hydra, for example she could fly now.

A Lie it was the Skrulls, since she was the Skrull Queen, and as Dr. Doom found out when her Bio Electricity register as a unknown energy. Black Widow question her powers and power Level were more than what was recorded.

Anyway just felt the need to bring that up as I took it.

#57 Posted by laflux (16204 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm very impressed by the quality of this debate. I'll vote a bit later.

#58 Posted by laflux (16204 posts) - - Show Bio

After reading through and looking at the quality of the debate, I'll give the edge to @strider92

Very high Class debate of course, and I would expect no less from you and @vance_astro

#59 Posted by Strider92 (16605 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92 want to leave this in the hands of the people? Let them vote. I keep forgetting about this and I don't want to take up any more of your time with this.

Sounds good to me :). Well debated btw.

#60 Edited by laflux (16204 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: Wanna vote in me and Cadence's CaV match ?

#61 Posted by DangerousLoki (715 posts) - - Show Bio
#63 Edited by Lvenger (20234 posts) - - Show Bio

I need some time to read this but I'll cast my vote soon.

#64 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

I am going with Strider.....

#65 Posted by laflux (16204 posts) - - Show Bio

2-2

#66 Posted by Vance Astro (91262 posts) - - Show Bio
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#67 Posted by 14NC3 (1762 posts) - - Show Bio

Really, really good debate. At some points I was gonna vote for vance but i'm leaning towards strider right now

#68 Edited by laflux (16204 posts) - - Show Bio

3-2 to strider

#69 Posted by dondave (37972 posts) - - Show Bio
#70 Edited by Lvenger (20234 posts) - - Show Bio

Having re read the debate this was one of a very high quality suffice to say. Both debaters were excellent. However I'll just give the edge to @strider92:as I was impressed with the way he reasoned SpOck utilising Peter's more high end angry feats in battle as well as response to Jessica's pheromones. Plus Veranke's power level in comparison to Jessica's is a tad unclear. Great debate to the both of you!

#71 Posted by laflux (16204 posts) - - Show Bio

4-2 to strider