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#1 Edited by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

Spider-woman (Vance Astro):

Vs

Spider-man (Strider92):

Conditions:

  • Morals On
  • No Prep
  • Random Encounter
  • Standard Gear
  • They both have basic knowledge on each other (ie: what they know in 616 canon)
  • Win by KO, Death or Incap

Location:

#2 Posted by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro Let me know if theres anything you disagree with and i'll edit. I'll probably be able to being tomorrow at the absolute earliest so you've got time to gather scans if need be :)

#3 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (21279 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be good.

#4 Posted by Sideslash (5906 posts) - - Show Bio

Spider-Woman wins because boobs.

#5 Posted by laflux (11061 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro Let me know if theres anything you disagree with and i'll edit. I'll probably be able to being tomorrow at the absolute earliest so you've got time to gather scans if need be :)

*Grabs Popcorn and soda*

#6 Edited by Dark_Vengeance_ (13903 posts) - - Show Bio
#7 Posted by Sideslash (5906 posts) - - Show Bio
#8 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (13903 posts) - - Show Bio

@sideslash:

Not even Tom Cruise can accomplish that mission.

#9 Edited by Sideslash (5906 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Edited by Vance Astro (90727 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92 said:

@vance_astro Let me know if theres anything you disagree with and i'll edit. I'll probably be able to being tomorrow at the absolute earliest so you've got time to gather scans if need be :)

The OP is fine. I'm also busy so I may get to this later tonight or tomorrow afternoon. If you give your opening post before I do, make sure to @me because otherwise I will probably forget.

Moderator
#11 Posted by New_World_Order (11159 posts) - - Show Bio
#12 Edited by ArrowRain (122 posts) - - Show Bio

Let the battle of Spiders begin.

#13 Posted by Vance Astro (90727 posts) - - Show Bio

Before I give my opening post I need to know which version of Spider-Man you're using?

Moderator
#14 Edited by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

Vance Astro still debates? lol. Lets see those skills used.

#15 Posted by Owie (3299 posts) - - Show Bio

Looking forward to this!

#16 Edited by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro said:

Before I give my opening post I need to know which version of Spider-Man you're using?

I was about to ask you the same question. Would you prefer I debate with SpOck or Pete? I honestly don't mind which. I can make a decent argument for either.

#17 Posted by dondave (26747 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be a good debate

#18 Posted by Lvenger (16049 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh this should be good. Strider and Vance going head to head is a very entertaining debate indeed.

#19 Posted by Vance Astro (90727 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92 said:

@vance_astro said:

Before I give my opening post I need to know which version of Spider-Man you're using?

I was about to ask you the same question. Would you prefer I debate with SpOck or Pete? I honestly don't mind which. I can make a decent argument for either.

You can take which ever one you want. If you use Pete though I'll need to know which Pete was well because he keeps changing. He had the"other" powers then he lost them, then he lost his spidey sense etc. so I need specifics.

Moderator
#20 Posted by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: I think i'll go with SpOck :D No-one used him in a 1v1 debate yet may as well give it a shot!

#21 Posted by Vance Astro (90727 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92 said:

@vance_astro: I think i'll go with SpOck :D No-one used him in a 1v1 debate yet may as well give it a shot!

I figured that's what you wanted any way LOL.

Moderator
#22 Posted by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: Well thats what our initial debate was about anyway thought I may as well stick with it :p

#23 Edited by laflux (11061 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: I think i'll go with SpOck :D No-one used him in a 1v1 debate yet may as well give it a shot!

That's because Spider-Man, post Spider-Island but Pre Dying wish is pun intended the "Superior" Choice. Still able to use all the feats from the classic era for the most part, has advanced gear, good feats from that era alone (acting as landing gear for an Aeroplane) and competent martial arts training.

Don't let me down :P

#24 Posted by lagoon_boy (10951 posts) - - Show Bio

http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/wsg/image/1339/13/1339130665071.gif

#25 Posted by Vance Astro (90727 posts) - - Show Bio

Opening Post:

I think Jessica is fully capable of beating Superior Spider-Man. His physical advantage is only slight and I don't think his mind set and willingness to not hold back will serve him any better because I think she was always on Peter's level regardless and since Ock isn't using a "superior body" but only Parker's old body which has the same stats as classic Spidey minus the same level of skill at using webbing and no spider-sense I think she has the advantage.

Although Ock is in Parker's body and Parker is now trained he doesn't have Spider-sense. Which gives her better chance to get hits off. They should be fairly close in skill so she's not going to overwhelm him skill wise but lacking Spider-sense gives her better chances for her to get hits off. Her Venom blasts are pretty powerful. In Alias she dropped Jessica Jones (who is superhuman in durability & strength) with one blast and apparently she can use these bio-electric attacks at a "stun" OR "kill capacity". Also as shown in Agent of S.W.O.R.D. & New Avengers she can use them to enhance her punches and kicks so it would be like he's getting hit by the full force of her punches but with a powerful taser at the same time. Examples below..

I won't put all my cards on the table yet. You can address my points about close combat. I think she has the edge on both range and power and with him not being so far out of her physical league and her having attacks that are more likely to put him down than simple punches would for him, I think she could win.

Moderator
#26 Posted by robertloucksjr (1490 posts) - - Show Bio

Warpath is so badly written. He should be as fast as Spider-Woman and much much stronger. Crap, even Captain America kicks his ass.

#27 Edited by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: Game on! :p

First off SpOck does have a spider-sense. Peter got his spider-sense back during Spider-Island which was prior to Superior:

If you needed any further convincing SpOck has been shown to use his spider-sense on quite a few occasions:

So while SpOck hasn't demonstrated the Kung-Fu training he definitely has a Spider-sense and knows how to use it.

With regards to the scans provided if I recall correctly even Jackpot managed to take down a Spider-man Skrull copy during secret invasion so while the Skrull may have had a copy set of Peter's abilities they have shown very bad mastery of it. However I understand your point about her enhancing her punches and I agree that taking a smack to the face from Jess isn't going to leave SpOck unscathed.

The Warpath feat however isn't legit IIRC. That scene was during AvX and it was all a hallucination. We saw at the end of the issue that everything that happened to Hawkeye, Spider-woman and Powerman was a complete illusion brought on by Danger:

So what she did to Warpath is not an accurate assessment of the power of her blows.

While Jess is a formidable close quarter fighter. SpOck despite his arrogance has demonstrated pretty good fighting skills. He may not have Peter's finesse but he does make up for this in brutality:

Of course Logan was not using his claws here but in the second scan, it is safe to say that he is pissed at SpOck and yet Spidey dances around him fairly easily despite the difference in skill and despite Otto's inexperience and arrogance. We all know what kind of hand to hand fighter Wolverine is and yet he had trouble laying a finger on SpOck. Jess is not as good a fighter as Logan so will most likely have just as much trouble. Jess also does not have Logan's durability so a punch from Superior is going to leave a hell of a mark. Heck we saw what happened when he didn't control his power out-put properly against Scorpion:

So while Jess's punches will hurt, Superior can and most likely will (due to his laxed morals) be quite willing and capable of hurting her back just as badly if not worse. She will also have more trouble landing her hits due to her inferior reaction speed to SpOck and his spider-sense.

While her venom blasts are of course very dangerous at a range this is nothing we haven't seen Spider-man deal with in the past. For example against Sentinels he was able to create a web shield to defend himself:

This is one option Superior has to help him close the distance. She has venom blasts yes but she needs to hit him for that to do any damage and with a combination of webbing and spider-sense I don't see her hitting SpOck before he closes that distance. Especially since we saw him dance around Ultron Lasers easily in AU which can't be far off the same speed as Jess's blasts if not faster.

Over to you :)

#28 Posted by Vance Astro (90727 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92 said:

First off SpOck does have a spider-sense. Peter got his spider-sense back during Spider-Island which was prior to Superior:

If you needed any further convincing SpOck has been shown to use his spider-sense on quite a few occasions:

So while SpOck hasn't demonstrated the Kung-Fu training he definitely has a Spider-sense and knows how to use it.

That was my mistake. Must have slipped my mind. I myself actually have scans of him using Spider-sense.

With regards to the scans provided if I recall correctly even Jackpot managed to take down a Spider-man Skrull copy during secret invasion so while the Skrull may have had a copy set of Peter's abilities they have shown very bad mastery of it. However I understand your point about her enhancing her punches and I agree that taking a smack to the face from Jess isn't going to leave SpOck unscathed.

The Warpath feat however isn't legit IIRC. That scene was during AvX and it was all a hallucination. We saw at the end of the issue that everything that happened to Hawkeye, Spider-woman and Powerman was a complete illusion brought on by Danger

The point of the scans wasn't to show the POWER of the attacks but rather to show you she is capable of strengthening her punches in kicks with her bio-electic energy. I wasn't aware if you knew she could do that.

Of course Logan was not using his claws here but in the second scan, it is safe to say that he is pissed at SpOck and yet Spidey dances around him fairly easily despite the difference in skill and despite Otto's inexperience and arrogance. We all know what kind of hand to hand fighter Wolverine is and yet he had trouble laying a finger on SpOck. Jess is not as good a fighter as Logan so will most likely have just as much trouble. Jess also does not have Logan's durability so a punch from Superior is going to leave a hell of a mark. Heck we saw what happened when he didn't control his power out-put properly against Scorpion:

So while Jess's punches will hurt, Superior can and most likely will (due to his laxed morals) be quite willing and capable of hurting her back just as badly if not worse. She will also have more trouble landing her hits due to her inferior reaction speed to SpOck and his spider-sense.

Well Ock should be dancing around Logan fairly easy considering his speed advantage but in comparison Jessica is faster than Logan. What makes you say that her speed is inferior to his?

While her venom blasts are of course very dangerous at a range this is nothing we haven't seen Spider-man deal with in the past. For example against Sentinels he was able to create a web shield to defend himself:

This is one option Superior has to help him close the distance. She has venom blasts yes but she needs to hit him for that to do any damage and with a combination of webbing and spider-sense I don't see her hitting SpOck before he closes that distance. Especially since we saw him dance around Ultron Lasers easily in AU which can't be far off the same speed as Jess's blasts if not faster.

I think the difference between blasts from weaponized robots and a blast from Jessica is that she is skilled enough to put herself and position to get the attack off. Whether she blasts at him like a projectile or she uses her bio-electric blasts for melee...he'd have to dodge every attack NOT to get hit or KO her first. I don't see either as being likely.

Moderator
#29 Edited by Killemall (16960 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: So you picked the honey-badger of the marvel universe :) Do all honey-badgers proud mate.

#30 Edited by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro said:

Well Ock should be dancing around Logan fairly easy considering his speed advantage but in comparison Jessica is faster than Logan. What makes you say that her speed is inferior to his?

I haven't seen many speed feats from Jess to be honest so if you could provide a few that would be helpful for me to give an educated reply :)

@vance_astro said:

I think the difference between blasts from weaponized robots and a blast from Jessica is that she is skilled enough to put herself and position to get the attack off. Whether she blasts at him like a projectile or she uses her bio-electric blasts for melee...he'd have to dodge every attack NOT to get hit or KO her first. I don't see either as being likely.

Those where just two examples. People like Electro have also had trouble tagging Spider-man due to his reflexes and speed:

Considering SpOck does have Pete's physical speed he should be able to pull off something very similar. Heck we even saw SpOck react to an attack from Electro.

suffice to say avoiding Jess's energy attacks should not be outside of SpOck's ability to accomplish.

While her blows are strong its not like she is going to KO SpOck with one hit. People with weaker durability than SpOck have taken such blows and not fallen such as Taskmaster. It is going to take her much more than a single hit to put SpOck down. In those scans you posted for example when she's decking that Skrull. The Skrull takes quite a few blows before staying down and Spider-Skrulls don't have a great track-record of being all that strong anyway. They certainly don't have the feats to put them on Spider-man's level of durability.

Jess on the other hand has been KO'd by Peter himself. Granted Jess was held back by mind-control but this did not effect her durability only how she fought. This is Pete we're talking about. The guy who holds back. If he can bypass Jess's durability SpOck definitely can.

Before I go any further I want to make myself clear. I'm not saying that Jess is going to stand there and take the punches and I know she isn't mind controlled in this scenario so she's going to be fighting to her full potential. What i'm trying to say is that both SpOck and SW are going to have trouble landing hits however Jess is at a disadvantage in the fact that she is inferior to SpOck in reaction speed and we've seen that she can be KO'd by Peter when he's holding back. SpOck will give her no such lenience and will hit her harder than Pete has ever done.

On top of this it looks to me given the scans of the Spider-Skrull and Headsman who both have less feats of durability than Spider-man can take quite a few blows without going down that SpOck has the durability to take more of what she could dish out than the other way around. So I don't see why he would need to dodge every attack in the first place. Granted its in his best interest to do so but he's in a much better position than Jess in this regard.

#31 Edited by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: So you picked the honey-badger of the marvel universe :) Do all honey-badgers proud mate.

For the Honey-badgers!

#32 Edited by Vance Astro (90727 posts) - - Show Bio
@strider92 said:

I haven't seen many speed feats from Jess to be honest so if you could provide a few that would be helpful for me to give an educated reply :)

I'm not saying that she's faster than him, but I do believe that they are at least on the same level. She doesn't have many speed feats but I think she has enough to prove their equality.

Dodging Spider-Man's webbing
Throws a lightpost at a guy but is able to move him out of the way before it reaches him.

Dodging laser fire from a battle robot & Madame Hydra
Dodging Laser fire from multiple agents at fairly close range
@strider92 said:

Those where just two examples. People like Electro have also had trouble tagging Spider-man due to his reflexes and speed

I'm not saying that every time she tries to blast him she will be successful. I've seen Spider-Man dodge her venom blasts on several occasions, but what I'm saying is Spider-Man isn't perfect when dodging, even with spider-sense..he's gonna get hit eventually. I don't think he's fast or skilled enough to dodge it every time and she's pretty powerful when she's not holding back.

@strider92 said:

suffice to say avoiding Jess's energy attacks should not be outside of SpOck's ability to accomplish.

While her blows are strong its not like she is going to KO SpOck with one hit. People with weaker durability than SpOck have taken such blows and not fallen such as Taskmaster. It is going to take her much more than a single hit to put SpOck down. In those scans you posted for example when she's decking that Skrull. The Skrull takes quite a few blows before staying down and Spider-Skrulls don't have a great track-record of being all that strong anyway. They certainly don't have the feats to put them on Spider-man's level of durability.

Jess on the other hand has been KO'd by Peter himself. Granted Jess was held back by mind-control but this did not effect her durability only how she fought. This is Pete we're talking about. The guy who holds back. If he can bypass Jess's durability SpOck definitely can.

Before I go any further I want to make myself clear. I'm not saying that Jess is going to stand there and take the punches and I know she isn't mind controlled in this scenario so she's going to be fighting to her full potential. What i'm trying to say is that both SpOck and SW are going to have trouble landing hits however Jess is at a disadvantage in the fact that she is inferior to SpOck in reaction speed and we've seen that she can be KO'd by Peter when he's holding back. SpOck will give her no such lenience and will hit her harder than Pete has ever done.

On top of this it looks to me given the scans of the Spider-Skrull and Headsman who both have less feats of durability than Spider-man can take quite a few blows without going down that SpOck has the durability to take more of what she could dish out than the other way around. So I don't see why he would need to dodge every attack in the first place. Granted its in his best interest to do so but he's in a much better position than Jess in this regard.

That's assuming that Jessica wasn't holding back on Taskmaster. He's a regular human. It was shown in her origin that even as a child her venom blasts were powerful enough to kill people. I also showed a scan earlier of her dropping Jessica Jones in one-shot and Jessica is far more durable than Taskmaster. I'm not saying that Jessica will be able to one-shot Ock, she will definitely need to hit him repeatedly but I think because they are more than just a physical attack they will be harder to shake off than blunt force. Below are some scans of how powerful Jessica's attacks can be...

Has class 100 Typhon screaming in pain
Let's out a gigantic blast KO'ing hundreds of people
Overloads Doom's power over the Avengers. Notice she is the only one able to break free although Ms.Marvel is also a powerful energy projector. Granted this is Veranke & not Jessica but Veranke as you know at this point was simply a copy of Jessica, no more powerful but no less either.
Jessica lending Ms.Marvel her power to take out the Hood's Gang

Also if you didn't know. Jessica has enhanced senses as well. Nothing Spider-sense level but at least on the level of a Wolverine or Daredevil. Below is a scan of her detecting that Fury is an LMD via her sense of smell.

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#33 Edited by Vance Astro (90727 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think Ock will be able to resist pheromones because I don't think Pete could either. I know the scans below are of Veranke but again since Veranke is only a copy of Jessica she wouldn't be any better at using them than Jessica herself and i've only seen Jessica use her pheromones this way. You mentioned an instance with the cops where Jessica used pheromones and the cop was able to snap out of it. I don't fully recall what happened as far as the amount of time they were under her power but I do remember that she was able to make them fall in love with her. Also realize that in this instance that Jessica is using these pheromones while in close quarters of the Wrecker so her teammates aren't really catching the brunt of it. What little they did catch had some sort of effect. Even if it distracts Ock for a short time that would be sufficient in allowing her to get free shots.

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#34 Edited by thanobomb1124 (2000 posts) - - Show Bio
#35 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (4926 posts) - - Show Bio

Spider-Woman wins because boobs.

But they look so stiff and not bouncy in this picture.

#36 Posted by laflux (11061 posts) - - Show Bio

@sideslash said:

Spider-Woman wins because boobs.

But they look so stiff and not bouncy in this picture.

Girl has a good Sports Bra then.

#37 Posted by Vance Astro (90727 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Edited by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro said:

I'm not saying that she's faster than him, but I do believe that they are at least on the same level. She doesn't have many speed feats but I think she has enough to prove their equality.


Dodging webbing while impressive doesn't really put her her on Spider-man's level of speed for example:

So while I do agree that Jess is fast enough to fight him I would not say she is his equal in this department. Her dodging the blasts from the HYDRA robots while impressive aren't at all different to Spider-man dodging sentinel blasts which you already said "aren't skilled enough to get into a position to get an attack off" which I agree to but Sentinel's while unskilled still have good feats against a few of the X-men. HYDRA-bots don't.

@vance_astro said:

I'm not saying that every time she tries to blast him she will be successful. I've seen Spider-Man dodge her venom blasts on several occasions, but what I'm saying is Spider-Man isn't perfect when dodging, even with spider-sense..he's gonna get hit eventually. I don't think he's fast or skilled enough to dodge it every time and she's pretty powerful when she's not holding back.


I'm not saying that he'd dodge her every venom blast indefinitely from a range, what i'm getting at is with the speed and reactions he has SpOck has a good chance of clearing the distance between them before she can tag him. If for example he was at one end of a football field and she was at the other then yes he most likely would get tagged before he got into close combat. However this distance is smaller and with speed he can use to cover distances like this (in the first one he jumps the height of a whole building in one leap):

He even tore through the Avengers Mansion once and moved so fast through the multiple floors that they couldn't track him:

Given his consistent speed feats, agility and spider-sense I would say it was much more likely that Spider-man would make it into close-combat with Jess before she could tag him than it would the other way around.

@vance_astro said:

That's assuming that Jessica wasn't holding back on Taskmaster. He's a regular human. It was shown in her origin that even as a child her venom blasts were powerful enough to kill people. I also showed a scan earlier of her dropping Jessica Jones in one-shot and Jessica is far more durable than Taskmaster. I'm not saying that Jessica will be able to one-shot Ock, she will definitely need to hit him repeatedly but I think because they are more than just a physical attack they will be harder to shake off than blunt force. Below are some scans of how powerful Jessica's attacks can be...

Given the first scan I would concede that a single concentrated attack would probably hurt SpOck a hell of a lot however her vast AOE blasts don't seem that powerful. They only KO'd a few humans. IIRC Spider-man has flicked them unconscious. So while the cover is very good the actual strength of the attack isn't all that impressive. Again the charge is a good feat but after both instance she was physically drained you can see Ms. Marvel holding her afterwards. Unleashing that much energy when you aren't absolutely sure you're going to hit is a hell of a decision to make especially as SpOck isn't just going to stand there and let her charge up a strong attack.

@vance_astro said:

I don't think Ock will be able to resist pheromones because I don't think Pete could either. I know the scans below are of Veranke but again since Veranke is only a copy of Jessica she wouldn't be any better at using them than Jessica herself and i've only seen Jessica use her pheromones this way. You mentioned an instance with the cops where Jessica used pheromones and the cop was able to snap out of it. I don't fully recall what happened as far as the amount of time they were under her power but I do remember that she was able to make them fall in love with her. Also realize that in this instance that Jessica is using these pheromones while in close quarters of the Wrecker so her teammates aren't really catching the brunt of it. What little they did catch had some sort of effect. Even if it distracts Ock for a short time that would be sufficient in allowing her to get free shots.

Although I could make an argument about Veranke not being the same as Jess (given copy-skrulls haven't been much like their originals in the past) I won't :p.

This is where it gets interesting. From what i've seen Jessica's pheromones seem to induce attraction and in combination with her words she can use them to manipulate people. Now SpOck is pretty clever and he does have access to Peter's memories so he'll remember that incident not to mention he had time to study Jessica in Ends Of The Earth when Ock put her under mind-control. I'm nowhere near as clever as Ock or Pete but even I know that pheromones have to be breathed in, in order to take effect. He also saw that her words increase the effect. Not to mention as you so rightly said the degree of their control is dependent on the range. Jess was up close and personal with Wrecker so it made him all swoony. The others weren't so close and weren't doused in pheromones thus they only felt a little drawn to her. If this was their first encounter SpOck might be in trouble as he wouldn't know about the pheromones until too late. However in this case he's been given her power handed to him on a silver platter. Jess told him outright she uses pheromones. So if he knows that she releases pheromones it shouldn't be too hard for a scientific genius to jump to the conclusion that if he holds his breath when in close proximity it should mean said pheromones would be rendered mute or at the very least their effects diminished by a large amount. Putting this into practice with a combination of moving in and out of combat using his superior speed and agility means he can limit the intake of her pheromones allowing their effects to be radically diminished.

In Amazing Spider-man 199 it was shown that Peter can hold his breath for up to 8 minutes at a time. I don't have the actual scan which is really annoying me. I'll dig through the net later and try and have it for the next post.

Provided he goes in with this in mind (which I don't see why he shouldn't considering he has the mind of a master biologist and an evil genius) he should be able to prevent her pheromones taking full effect by moving in and out of combat every 8 minutes (like taking breaths when you go swimming underwater).

Even if SpOck did take some of the pheromones in he has something that Wrecker doesn't. SpOck's spider-sense is going to keep him on the defensive even if by some chance he does start swooning a little bit. For example with Daken.

Before I go any further I do understand that Daken's pheromones and Jessica's are very different in how they effect people however they're application is not. They are both classed as pheromones and both have to enter the body via being inhaled. They're effects are different but at base they are essentially the same.

We've seen that Spider-man's spider-sense can function through Daken's pheromones:

There is no reason that they could not work though Jessica's despite him swooning. They worked through Daken's despite him modifying his sense of perception. So if for some reason in battle he is forced to inhale his spider-sense will still be functional. As his spider-sense works by forcing his body to move to avoid danger it wouldn't matter if he was swooning a bit as its not his mind that makes him move, its an involuntary reflex triggered by his spider-sense. Here for example he says "close your eyes and let the tingling direct through the barrage" implying he does not need to think to react. In the other image it outright states that his spider-sense is reflexive and is not under his conscious control:

Ignoring his spider-sense is exceedingly hard for him to do. Its like someone trying not to blink if a bright-light is shone at you or trying to resist a gagging reflex when something is stuck in your throat which are also both reflexive. If by some chance he is put under the effects of Jess's pheromones his spider-sense will still be in effect and he won't have the conscious thought or willpower to prevent it taking over if he's swooning. It has even been stated that his spider-sense does not differentiate friend from foe thus it would still recognize Jessica a a threat and cause SpOck to reflexively react even if he is under the influence of her pheromones.

It is for this reason that even people like Mary Jane and Tony Stark can tip it off. When we all know that they aren't threats to the old web-head:

So even if by some chance SpOck has to breath in her pheromones he still isn't out of the fight due to his spider-sense causing him to instinctively react.

#39 Posted by Killemall (16960 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: I think this is the scans you are looking for, hope this helps.

Hope this doesnt count as interfering in a debate.

#40 Edited by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

@killemall: Cheers for the scans but was there another instance of this in the same issue because I seem to remembering him testing how long he could hold his breath not forced to. He didn't have a web bubble in the instance I was thinking of. Maybe I got the issue wrong.

#41 Posted by Vance Astro (90727 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92 This is alot to take in so if I don't respond for a while don't think I gave up.

Moderator
#42 Posted by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: Don't worry I understand it takes a while and the new format doesn't help much either.

#43 Posted by Vance Astro (90727 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92 said:

Dodging webbing while impressive doesn't really put her her on Spider-man's level of speed for example:

What is it that Spider-Man can do that you don't think she can't? IMO throwing something and then beating it to the spot to save someone is a much bigger feat than dodging a bullet point blank range especially considering the Spider-sense gives him a head start. Because when you throw something it's already ahead of you. And when we are talking about closing out a short distance that's alot to make up for in a short time. Peak humans have dodged bullets from point blank range even after they are fired. Jessica is superhuman. The scan where he owns Reed before he could move..

I'm not saying that he'd dodge her every venom blast indefinitely from a range, what i'm getting at is with the speed and reactions he has SpOck has a good chance of clearing the distance between them before she can tag him. If for example he was at one end of a football field and she was at the other then yes he most likely would get tagged before he got into close combat. However this distance is smaller and with speed he can use to cover distances like this (in the first one he jumps the height of a whole building in one leap)

Has Ock done that to anyone else who is superhuman? I don't think she'd start a fight with Spidey with a venom blast although she has and it hit him, but that's not really the way she was also being controlled during the fight i'm speaking off so that might have had something to do with HOW she was fighting. I would assume she'd try to go h2h with him first but I think she has a shot at getting at him with a venom blast whether it's close range or long range. If she can't blast him like a projectile she could also grab him like she did Daddy Longlegs (LMFAO @ Daddy Longlegs) and although he's stronger than her it's by a small enough margin that she'll get him pretty good before he breaks her grip.

He even tore through the Avengers Mansion once and moved so fast through the multiple floors that they couldn't track him:

Given his consistent speed feats, agility and spider-sense I would say it was much more likely that Spider-man would make it into close-combat with Jess before she could tag him than it would the other way around.

Whether that is impressive or not depends on who was on the roster. On most older rosters (I can think of) Spider-Man was faster than most members of the Avengers but if they had a magician like Dr.Druid or Dr.Strange and he was able to get away from them like that, that wouldn't make any sense. Also wouldn't make any sense if they had someone like Quicksilver or even Iron Man chasing him because Iron Man has advanced equipment that would have been able to locate Spider-Man even if he was far behind in reaching his location.

Given the first scan I would concede that a single concentrated attack would probably hurt SpOck a hell of a lot however her vast AOE blasts don't seem that powerful. They only KO'd a few humans. IIRC Spider-man has flicked them unconscious. So while the cover is very good the actual strength of the attack isn't all that impressive. Again the charge is a good feat but after both instance she was physically drained you can see Ms. Marvel holding her afterwards. Unleashing that much energy when you aren't absolutely sure you're going to hit is a hell of a decision to make especially as SpOck isn't just going to stand there and let her charge up a strong attack.

If she's blasting humans and they DON'T die, she's holding back. Venom Blasts shut down the nervous system. Most times she's only trying to KO or stun the person she's attacking. When she unleashed that huge amount of energy in the sky that KO'd

hundreds

of humans at once. She didn't exert herself to hurt Venom or Typhon with her blasts so I would assume that unlike when she lent Ms.Marvel her power to drop a whole room full of super-villains she wouldn't have to work that hard to take down a single adversary. As you notice she only doesn't have anything left when she's unleashing enough energy to take down several people at once.

Although I could make an argument about Veranke not being the same as Jess (given copy-skrulls haven't been much like their originals in the past) I won't :p.

You could but I think you'd be wrong. The only REAL Skrull copies were Veranke, Siri,Criti Noll, & Khn'nr and they were exactly like Spider-Woman,Elektra,Hank Pym, & Mar-Vell. The only difference was it was harder to convince Khn'nr that he wasn't Mar-Vell. Veranke & Criti Noll knew before Secret Invasion they weren't Jessica & Hank. They has the exact same powers and abilities, same DNA, same demeanor & intelligence.

This is where it gets interesting. From what i've seen Jessica's pheromones seem to induce attraction and in combination with her words she can use them to manipulate people. Now SpOck is pretty clever and he does have access to Peter's memories so he'll remember that incident not to mention he had time to study Jessica in Ends Of The Earth when Ock put her under mind-control. I'm nowhere near as clever as Ock or Pete but even I know that pheromones have to be breathed in, in order to take effect. He also saw that her words increase the effect. Not to mention as you so rightly said the degree of their control is dependent on the range. Jess was up close and personal with Wrecker so it made him all swoony. The others weren't so close and weren't doused in pheromones thus they only felt a little drawn to her. If this was their first encounter SpOck might be in trouble as he wouldn't know about the pheromones until too late. However in this case he's been given her power handed to him on a silver platter. Jess told him outright she uses pheromones. So if he knows that she releases pheromones it shouldn't be too hard for a scientific genius to jump to the conclusion that if he holds his breath when in close proximity it should mean said pheromones would be rendered mute or at the very least their effects diminished by a large amount. Putting this into practice with a combination of moving in and out of combat using his superior speed and agility means he can limit the intake of her pheromones allowing their effects to be radically diminished.

The thing with holding your breath so you don't breathe in the pheromones is. You would have to know when she's using them first. They don't have a color, a sound, or a sent and they aren't visible. In the incident with the cops. They were aware that she was doing something to make them feel a certain way but they were unable to do anything about it. They were scared stiff.

Even if SpOck did take some of the pheromones in he has something that Wrecker doesn't. SpOck's spider-sense is going to keep him on the defensive even if by some chance he does start swooning a little bit. For example with Daken.

Well as you know Daken & Spider-Woman are using their powers differently in this case. Ock's Spider-sense still works even if he's being effected by pheromones but you would have to assume that under that control, his sense can tell what is and is not a threat.

So even if by some chance SpOck has to breath in her pheromones he still isn't out of the fight due to his spider-sense causing him to instinctively react.

I don't think he'd be automatically out of the fight even if her pheromones work exactly the way she wanted them too. Once he is under her control whatever she attacks him with has to count because I think if she doesn't KO him with whatever she does he'll snap out of it and she'll have to try and get him back under control.

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#44 Edited by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro said:

What is it that Spider-Man can do that you don't think she can't? IMO throwing something and then beating it to the spot to save someone is a much bigger feat than dodging a bullet point blank range especially considering the Spider-sense gives him a head start. Because when you throw something it's already ahead of you. And when we are talking about closing out a short distance that's alot to make up for in a short time. Peak humans have dodged bullets from point blank range even after they are fired. Jessica is superhuman. The scan where he owns Reed before he could move..


I'm not saying Jess isn't fast but i've seen far more speed feats from Spider-man in the past that are on par or slightly Superior (hah pun). For example:

Look at the distance between Cobra and the civilains and yet despite the fact Spider-man is behind Cobra and the grenades are already in motion he still catches up to them and catches them before they hit the civilians. That is damn fast. There's even an instance of Spider-man moving faster than Chance's computer systems can keep up with. I'll try and dig out the scan!

@vance_astro said

Has Ock done that to anyone else who is superhuman? I don't think she'd start a fight with Spidey with a venom blast although she has and it hit him, but that's not really the way she was also being controlled during the fight i'm speaking off so that might have had something to do with HOW she was fighting. I would assume she'd try to go h2h with him first but I think she has a shot at getting at him with a venom blast whether it's close range or long range. If she can't blast him like a projectile she could also grab him like she did Daddy Longlegs (LMFAO @ Daddy Longlegs) and although he's stronger than her it's by a small enough margin that she'll get him pretty good before he breaks her grip.


Do you have any scans to show Jess's strength? I was under the impression she was quite a lot weaker than Spider-man. Less than half his strength level. The fights where Jess has fought Spider-man mind-controlled (3 times IIRC) neither her or Spider-man were fighting how they would normally. Jess was ofc under mind-control and Peter was to busy trying to snap her out of it or concentrating on not hurting her (besides the EoTE fight).

There's a character called Daddy Longlegs!? He's not a drag-queen by any chance lol!

@vance_astro said:

If she's blasting humans and they DON'T die, she's holding back. Venom Blasts shut down the nervous system. Most times she's only trying to KO or stun the person she's attacking. When she unleashed that huge amount of energy in the sky that KO'd

hundreds

of humans at once. She didn't exert herself to hurt Venom or Typhon with her blasts so I would assume that unlike when she lent Ms.Marvel her power to drop a whole room full of super-villains she wouldn't have to work that hard to take down a single adversary. As you notice she only doesn't have anything left when she's unleashing enough energy to take down several people at once.

Yes but it still clearly states that she was barely conscious after performing that feat. So I don't see how she could have been holding back. Her widened blasts are decidely weaker than the single ones. Which given Spider-man's speed and agility are the ones she has the most chance of hitting him with.

@vance_astro said:

You could but I think you'd be wrong. The only REAL Skrull copies were Veranke, Siri,Criti Noll, & Khn'nr and they were exactly like Spider-Woman,Elektra,Hank Pym, & Mar-Vell. The only difference was it was harder to convince Khn'nr that he wasn't Mar-Vell. Veranke & Criti Noll knew before Secret Invasion they weren't Jessica & Hank. They has the exact same powers and abilities, same DNA, same demeanor & intelligence.


As I said i'm quite happy to accept this. This is a debate for another day :p

@vance_astro said:

The thing with holding your breath so you don't breathe in the pheromones is. You would have to know when she's using them first. They don't have a color, a sound, or a sent and they aren't visible. In the incident with the cops. They were aware that she was doing something to make them feel a certain way but they were unable to do anything about it. They were scared stiff.


No you wouldn't thats just it. Because SpOck knows Jessica uses pheromones in combat (due to her telling Pete) all he would have to do is fight holding his breath regardless. He wouldn't need to know exactly when she starts using it as it doesn't take a genius to work out that if you hold your breath every time you fight her there is no-way for them to effect you. Of course this isn't 100% effective and would mean Spider-man would have to break away in order to take a breath. Not to mention a blow to the stomach could wind him and force him to inhale however it would vastly limit the intake of her pheromones.

@vance_astro said:

Well as you know Daken & Spider-Woman are using their powers differently in this case. Ock's Spider-sense still works even if he's being effected by pheromones but you would have to assume that under that control, his sense can tell what is and is not a threat.


As I showed in my last post his spider-sense is reflexive. For example with a gag reflex you can't ignore it simply because if what is causing it. If you swallow a peanut and it catches in your throat you choke it back up. If you swallow bread and it catches in your throat you cannot stop the reflex from occurring simply by thinking that bread is ok to choke on lol. Your body automatically responds regardless of what your brain or other senses will tell you.

And given the fast that it has responded to people who are friends or even lovers in some cases its pretty plain that his spider-sense does not differentiate between the two (heck it even says it in that last scan).

@vance_astro said:

I don't think he'd be automatically out of the fight even if her pheromones work exactly the way she wanted them too. Once he is under her control whatever she attacks him with has to count because I think if she doesn't KO him with whatever she does he'll snap out of it and she'll have to try and get him back under control.

You pretty much summed up what i was about to say next here for me lol.

#45 Posted by Lvenger (16049 posts) - - Show Bio

Ha this is still going on! Awesome!

#46 Posted by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Neither of us want to surrender!!!!! I'm listening to a compilation that "Never Surrender" by Skillet and "Eye Of The Tiger" right now so its keeping me motivated!!

But yeah Vance has been arguing like a boss. Before this I honestly didn't think Jess would stand a good chance of wining a random encounter vs Pete but now.......I feel a bit differently about it.

#47 Posted by Vance Astro (90727 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92 said:

I'm not saying Jess isn't fast but i've seen far more speed feats from Spider-man in the past that are on par or slightly Superior (hah pun). For example:

Look at the distance between Cobra and the civilains and yet despite the fact Spider-man is behind Cobra and the grenades are already in motion he still catches up to them and catches them before they hit the civilians. That is damn fast. There's even an instance of Spider-man moving faster than Chance's computer systems can keep up with. I'll try and dig out the scan!


I don't see how the feat with Cobra is any different than Jessica's lightpost feat. In both instances an object was hurled toward a character that got moved out of the way before they were hit and the distances between them was pretty short in both instances.

Do you have any scans to show Jess's strength? I was under the impression she was quite a lot weaker than Spider-man. Less than half his strength level. The fights where Jess has fought Spider-man mind-controlled (3 times IIRC) neither her or Spider-man were fighting how they would normally. Jess was ofc under mind-control and Peter was to busy trying to snap her out of it or concentrating on not hurting her (besides the EoTE fight).

There's a character called Daddy Longlegs!? He's not a drag-queen by any chance lol!

Jessica doesn't have any strength feats that I can think of. Her strength was mostly used in the form of attack power as to where she was capable of matching superhuman characters with punches and kicks. I don't recall any lifting or anything but since Spider-Man lost "The Other" powers and he's no longer class 20-25 he's back to being class 10-15 he's not that much stronger than her. Below is part of her "official handbook page" that states she's capable of lifting up to 7 tons. The first time she fought Peter she DOES acknowledge that he's stronger than her but it's not by much. He's definitely going to do much better with blunt force than she would.

There's a character called Daddy Longlegs!? He's not a drag-queen by any chance lol!

Yea LOL. This is him....

Daddy Longlegs

Yes but it still clearly states that she was barely conscious after performing that feat. So I don't see how she could have been holding back. Her widened blasts are decidely weaker than the single ones. Which given Spider-man's speed and agility are the ones she has the most chance of hitting him with.

She wasn't holding back her energy output she just wasn't very close to them. Had she been standing amongst them like in the crowd some of those people wouldn't have made it. Spider-Man & Spider-Woman are close range fighters she's not going to be that far away from him when she's trying to blast him.

No you wouldn't thats just it. Because SpOck knows Jessica uses pheromones in combat (due to her telling Pete) all he would have to do is fight holding his breath regardless. He wouldn't need to know exactly when she starts using it as it doesn't take a genius to work out that if you hold your breath every time you fight her there is no-way for them to effect you. Of course this isn't 100% effective and would mean Spider-man would have to break away in order to take a breath. Not to mention a blow to the stomach could wind him and force him to inhale however it would vastly limit the intake of her pheromones.

I don't see that working. If he gets hit hard enough he's not going to be able to continue holding his breath. He would not only have to beat her in a short period of time, he'd have to remain virtually untouched as well.

As I showed in my last post his spider-sense is reflexive. For example with a gag reflex you can't ignore it simply because if what is causing it. If you swallow a peanut and it catches in your throat you choke it back up. If you swallow bread and it catches in your throat you cannot stop the reflex from occurring simply by thinking that bread is ok to choke on lol. Your body automatically responds regardless of what your brain or other senses will tell you.

And given the fast that it has responded to people who are friends or even lovers in some cases its pretty plain that his spider-sense does not differentiate between the two (heck it even says it in that last scan).

Spider-sense is reflexive but it reacts to danger and can't read minds. If she has him under her control and goes to punch him, the Spider-sense will see the threat of the punch and he'll have time to react to that but let's say for instance she lures him in, he's completely in love he goes to touch her, hug her, show some sort of affection. I don't believe that any touching that isn't aggressive or that act of using pheromones on Ock itself will trigger the spider-sense. Now that she has her hands on him though even if his Spider-sense detects a Venom blast..he won't have time break Jessica's grip and dodge it.

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#48 Posted by VeganDiet (827 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: Not to try and butt in here, but his spider sense has reacted to ill intent before, so I don't know if the situation you're describing in your last point would go down quite like that.

#49 Edited by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro said:

I don't see how the feat with Cobra is any different than Jessica's lightpost feat. In both instances an object was hurled toward a character that got moved out of the way before they were hit and the distances between them was pretty short in both instances.

Fair enough. My only argument was that he was also wrestling with a villain at the time so not only did he have to catch the two objects thrown ahead but also get passed Cobra.

@vance_astro said:

Jessica doesn't have any strength feats that I can think of. Her strength was mostly used in the form of attack power as to where she was capable of matching superhuman characters with punches and kicks. I don't recall any lifting or anything but since Spider-Man lost "The Other" powers and he's no longer class 20-25 he's back to being class 10-15 he's not that much stronger than her. Below is part of her "official handbook page" that states she's capable of lifting up to 7 tons. The first time she fought Peter she DOES acknowledge that he's stronger than her but it's not by much. He's definitely going to do much better with blunt force than she would.

Even pre-Other Spider-man seems to me to be beyond a 10-15tonner. Some of his pre-Other feats put him beyond that:

Lifting tanks, trains, military helicopters and pulling down buildings without much visible strain seems above 10tons to me. last time I checked tanks and trains weighed more than that! When Jess fought Pete he was holding back as he always does. Otto when he took over Spider-man's body that he must have been holding back for years. Even in Ends Of The Earth we saw Spider-man tear through 4 arms made from Carbonadium all of them a foot thick and without any leverage:

Considering Carbonadium is an Adamantium substitute and the same stuff Omega Red's coils are made from that requires far more than 10tons to rip through. I would say he is substantially stronger than Jess when unrestrained and Superior will not hold back nearly as much as Pete did.

@vance_astro said:

Yea LOL. This is him....

Daddy Longlegs

rofl did he have any powers?

@vance_astro said:

She wasn't holding back her energy output she just wasn't very close to them. Had she been standing amongst them like in the crowd some of those people wouldn't have made it. Spider-Man & Spider-Woman are close range fighters she's not going to be that far away from him when she's trying to blast him.

Ah yes thats true I forgot the distance it was performed at.

@vance_astro said:

I don't see that working. If he gets hit hard enough he's not going to be able to continue holding his breath. He would not only have to beat her in a short period of time, he'd have to remain virtually untouched as well.

While it will not indefinitely you can't argue that this would limit the amount of pheromones he would take in. I'm not saying he could spend the whole fight with his breath held and beat her in that time i'm just saying that it is a viable way of decreasing the chances of him falling under the effects of her pheromones allowing him to deal out more of a fight.

@vance_astro said:

Spider-sense is reflexive but it reacts to danger and can't read minds. If she has him under her control and goes to punch him, the Spider-sense will see the threat of the punch and he'll have time to react to that but let's say for instance she lures him in, he's completely in love he goes to touch her, hug her, show some sort of affection. I don't believe that any touching that isn't aggressive or that act of using pheromones on Ock itself will trigger the spider-sense. Now that she has her hands on him though even if his Spider-sense detects a Venom blast..he won't have time break Jessica's grip and dodge it.

Actually it also reacts to people who want to hurt him even if he doesn't know it. For example after saving a woman he'd never met before from Absorbing Man his spider-sense told him that she was a threat even before she attacked:

So while it cannot read minds it can actually detect a threat before even Spider-man is aware of it even if said person hasn't done anything directly threatening. So it would most likely detect Jessica's ill intent.

#50 Posted by Strider92 (15262 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: Your move :). Or do you want to turn this over to votes?