All of Lucifer's feats (From his first to last apperance) are allowed.
All of Beyonder's feats (From his first to last apperance) are also allowed.
No manipulating each other.
No prep time.
Both Lucifer and the beyonder are in character.
battle takes place on Oa:
Also please no other viners post in this thread while me and Baron are debating with each other, only after we are finished then you can all post and say who did better.
no other viners post in this thread while me and Baron are debating with each other, only after we are finished then you can all post and say who did better.
So please don't comment until me and Baron are finished.
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good thing i kept some scans in my lucifer respect thread and van cere account lol
i will start off gently, to show some of his powers first, then show what his powers can do. lucifers was created to be the literal will of god and the shaper of the presences own creation. as god described it, to weave power into suns.
a being of fire and will, here is him showing why he is called the lightbringer: (done with full power)
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he uses his power to fry a group of guardian giants.
his fire could also burn infinitely and indefinitely, as shown here. fire with huge destructive force and the ability to burn for eternity is quite powerful.
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a bunch of gods called the voiceless gods were granting every wish on earth that every human was making, guess who do they call to kill those gods? the morningstar, and that was when he did not have his wings so he is at a fraction of his full power.
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the voiceless gods
here is lucifer demonstrating his reality warping powers without wings. this shows you should be nice to strangers and never assume anything. and might give people a fear of hitchhikers. him without wings.
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as shown, the gods are in their place of power, yet a fraction of lucifers will is still more than they could handle. granted, he tricked them in the end, but still, an awesome feat. this shows his will can reinforce whatever reality or illusion he made, and others can not undo it.
here is lucifer at full power, able to enter someones mind, and prolong that guys death. done with full power
Ok my turn, so we all know for a fact that the Beyonder comes from a different multiverse which dwarfed the main Marvel multiverse and not only that but he was literally everything in that multiverse as well, and here Jim Shooter explains in an interview that the Beyonder was like God before there was Genesis. After which, the Beyonder discovers the microscopic earth:
And the very first thing he did when he entered the 616 universe was completely obliterate an entire galaxy and then use the remains of it to create the battle world:
He then tells the heroes and Villains "Slay your enemies and all you desire shall be yours!" which means he has the ability to grant any wish:
Galactus senses that the Beyonder is a power beyond the multiverse itself and then he (along with doom) heads for the rift….only to get swatted like flies (notice Xavier’s comment -- even Galactus is like a fly when compared to the Beyonder):
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Hell even after Doom usurped the Beyonder's powers and not having fully control over the power he could have destroyed all of reality in a burst of angar:
this is the last thread i will use lucifers lamer feats.
Ok my turn, so we all know for a fact that the Beyonder comes from a different multiverse which dwarfed the main Marvel multiverse and not only that but he was literally everything in that multiverse as well, and here Jim Shooter explains in an interview that the Beyonder was like God before there was Genesis. After which, the Beyonder discovers the microscopic earth:
lucifer is the perfect being to challenge the beyonder, seeing as his status is just like beyonders; he is god of a creation outside the main creation too, and lucifer shows you do not have to be omnipotent to be god. and i see you did not mention the famous drop of water comparison, maybe because you think it sounds awfully like hyperbole too.
And the very first thing he did when he entered the 616 universe was completely obliterate an entire galaxy and then use the remains of it to create the battle world:
cool creation and destruction feat, yet lucifer can match this
with the creating of his own planet, and shaping. as a side note, lucifers planet is much more eye pleasing lol.
and him killing fenris, the embodiment of ruin and destruction, while being extremely weakened to the point he has to reserve his power and let spears pierce himself (though the weapons are made to kill angels). even though fenris has not displayed any feats except being impervious to all harm, the ability to turn into almost everything, the ability to get stronger with destruction, and vast strength, killing an almost abstract being is a pretty cool feat seeing as the being can survive even when he let others eat his own soul and flesh.
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He then tells the heroes and Villains "Slay your enemies and all you desire shall be yours!" which means he has the ability to grant any wish:
other beings with the same ability are the voiceless gods, and their power is weaker than the wingless lucifers will as shown in my first post.
Galactus senses that the Beyonder is a power beyond the multiverse itself and then he (along with doom) heads for the rift….only to get swatted like flies (notice Xavier’s comment -- even Galactus is like a fly when compared to the Beyonder):
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Hell even after Doom usurped the Beyonder's powers and not having fully control over the power he could have destroyed all of reality in a burst of angar:
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well, a power from beyond the multiverse can vary, and can be at any level. and galactus said he was hungry when he was charging, so....
and dooms reality destroying burst of power he almost could not contain was a self statement with no one to confirm that. for example, the spectre almost always brag about his power, calling himself gods power made manifest, yet never backing it up, and no one confirmed that.
even if that burst of power can do that, lucifer can contain it, as he contained the full demiurgic power, the power that can erase and overwhelm all of creation instantly while being weakened from both the journey to the tree and his fight with michael, and being possessed:
@baron_von_santa: Ok now I will post all of the Beyonder's feats from Secret Wars 2 since i was only starting with the other post.
But anyways when it comes to omnipotence Pre-Retcon Beyonder is one of the most perfect examples of omnipotence:
After the Beyonder arrives on and gets his head straight he instantly conquers the Earth and controls everything and everyone on it (including bacteria, particles and the like) (These scans are from SW 2 #3):
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In the next issue (Secret Wars II #4) the Beyonder falls in love with the mutant called Dazzler, and when they kissed the Beyonder was grants her half of his power – thousand times greater than the combined energy of existence. however Dazzler rejects the power and fell to her death, in a bust of anger and sorrow (Kind of like a Bride of Frankenstein moment LOL!) the Beyonder destroys an entire galaxy in his grief; he then calms down and resurrects her:
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In the next issue (Secret Wars II #5) he goes back into the Beyond realm, though when he gets there he realizes that there is nothing left in fact it isn't even really a place because Beyonder was the living embodiment of the entire place and without him it is completely empty, so he starts conjuring everything that comes to his mind (including planets):
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How here comes the big one :3 in Secret Wars II #6 the Beyonder states that he is too big for the multiverse, his very presence alters the entire multiverse a great deal, without him even knowing it:
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Beyonder stats that he wants to fight for life and destroy the meaning of Death to Dave, so he puts a large portion of his power in the cup so Death could drink it, but then the Cosmic Brigade (which consists of Living Tribunal, Eternity, the Watcher, In-Betweener, Mephisto, lord Chaos & Master Order, etc) comes in and begs the Beyonder to not have Death drink the cup or else the entire concept of Death would be erased from all creation, but Dave ignores them and gives Death the cup in which she drinks, thus erasing the concept of death across all the multiverse. Then he brings her back with Dave's sacrifice:
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Even with a small fraction of his power, Beyonder is still more powerful than the entire cosmic assembly (which includes the Living tribunal (Who most would say is > Lucifer) and Eternity):
I think this should be enough but I will continue.
In Secret Wars II #8 (at the very start of the issue) Beyonder is very angry in fact so angry that he he causes multiversal-wide destruction; molecule man repairs it within seconds:
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Later on in the same issue Molecule Man (Who during SW 2 was also more powerful then all of the Cocmic powers including Living Tribunal) creates a big shield around himself, Marsha & and the entire town they where at was powerful enough to withstand the powers from all the cosmic powers (Including Living Tribunal) and, though unfortunately Beyonder destroyes the shield very easily and Owen even stated that he used all of his power to create the shield:
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Then both Beyonder and Molecule Man have a brief confrontation in which the Beyonder tanks an attack that could have destroyed several billion dimensions, like it was nothing:
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And in a tie in issue (Amazing Spiderman #274) The Beyonder destroys parallel dimensions/universes just by standing there. He proceeds to erase a thousand galactic races (including their home worlds) out of existence with a mere shrug:
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And in Fantastic four #288 the Beyonder stats that in his universe, he is the one and the many, the nothing and the all, he had no beginning nor will he have an end:
And in Secret Wars II #9 The Beyonder stats that even the mightiest beings in the Marvel verse (including living tribunal) are like microbes to him:
This was the reason LT and the others wouldn't attack him, because they're literally, afraid of him:
And When the beyonder made himself into a normal human and gained his powers back it stats that The Beyonder is millions of times more powerful than the combined power in the multiverse(which includes the Living Tribunal who again Lucifer is on par with):
In short, Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than the most powerful beings in the omniverse
The heroes then confront the Beyonder; he easily deals with them, all except the molecule man, whom he engages in a multiversal battle (which also affects every single creature in it). The Beyonder then delivers a death stroke which seemingly kills everything in its path, reaching to the ends of infinity:
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And after the fight Owen flat out admits that even he is nothing to the Beyonder:
Believing that everyone is dead (though in fact, the molecule man removed every being from the blast’s path, fooling the Beyonder) the Beyonder sought to reincarnate himself in a mortal body (by becoming an infant and rapidly aging to transform to an adult, so that he could truly experience humanity) through a machine he created. The molecule man destroys the machine and sends the enormous energies of the Beyonder into his beyond-realm forming a big bang and creating a new universe in the process:
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WOW! now this post was a massive pain to make! anyways that Pre-Retcon Beyonder for you, now normal we should stop here but I'm not because I'm going to make one more post involving the feats of Post-Retcon Beyonder, because I did say in the op that "All of Beyonder's feats (From his first to last apperance) are also allowed" (though the same also goes for Lucifer in this thread as well).
the problem is, most people would not want to be in my shoes now, seeing as i am using lucifer against the PR beyonder, whom many thought to be omnipotent, and Lucifer can not match that kind of power. but beyonder has implied power, stated power. now, to analyze.
After the Beyonder arrives on and gets his head straight he instantly conquers the Earth and controls everything and everyone on it (including bacteria, particles and the like) (These scans are from SW 2 #3):
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not that great a feat, seeing as that was exactly what god swamp thing did, and both controlled everything on earth.
In the next issue (Secret Wars II #4) the Beyonder falls in love with the mutant called Dazzler, and when they kissed the Beyonder was grants her half of his power – thousand times greater than the combined energy of existence. however Dazzler rejects the power and fell to her death, in a bust of anger and sorrow (Kind of like a Bride of Frankenstein moment LOL!) the Beyonder destroys an entire galaxy in his grief; he then calms down and resurrects her:
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it was a self statement. and if people believe statements, then darkseid, sentry, odin, would all be omnipotent. the spectre would be gods power incarnate. and a burst of anger destroyed a galaxy? good feat. i will counter that later below.
How here comes the big one :3 in Secret Wars II #6 the Beyonder states that he is too big for the multiverse, his very presence alters the entire multiverse a great deal, without him even knowing it:
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this shows his power and that he is not omniscient, (far from it).
Beyonder stats that he wants to fight for life and destroy the meaning of Death to Dave, so he puts a large portion of his power in the cup so Death could drink it, but then the Cosmic Brigade (which consists of Living Tribunal, Eternity, the Watcher, In-Betweener, Mephisto, lord Chaos & Master Order, etc) comes in and begs the Beyonder to not have Death drink the cup or else the entire concept of Death would be erased from all creation, but Dave ignores them and gives Death the cup in which she drinks, thus erasing the concept of death across all the multiverse. Then he brings her back with Dave's sacrifice:
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so he has the power to erase the concept of death throughout the multiverse, but it leaves him drained. this shows his power is not infinite; destroying death used up a lot of his power
Even with a small fraction of his power, Beyonder is still more powerful than the entire cosmic assembly (which includes the Living tribunal (Who most would say is > Lucifer) and Eternity):
lol, this shows that by klling death, it drained him so much that he only has a small fraction left. and it, again, was a statement.
Later on in the same issue Molecule Man (Who during SW 2 was also more powerful then all of the Cocmic powers including Living Tribunal) creates a big shield around himself, Marsha & and the entire town they where at was powerful enough to withstand the powers from all the cosmic powers (Including Living Tribunal) and, though unfortunately Beyonder destroyes the shield very easily and Owen even stated that he used all of his power to create the shield:
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where was it stated to be able to withstand all the powers from the cosmic powers?
And in Fantastic four #288 the Beyonder stats that in his universe, he is the one and the many, the nothing and the all, he had no beginning nor will he have an end:
i will assume that he means he is everything in his universe.
And When the beyonder made himself into a normal human and gained his powers back it stats that The Beyonder ismillions of times more powerful than the combined power in the multiverse(which includes the Living Tribunal who again Lucifer is on par with):
again, a self statement.
now, time for Lucifer Morningstars feats. which will post in my next post. do not post until i finish.
post retcon? i thought when we first decided to do this, we are using pre retcon beyonder.
now, let me summarize beyonders feats from your post. note that i will not include statements of power for obvious reasons:
controlled everything on earth
with a burst of power destroyed a galaxy
resurrects a woman from the brink of death
made a universe, that can not survive without him as he IS the universe
warping the multiverse with his presence without his own knowledge
used up almost all his power to kill the concept of death, and only a fraction was left
used a sacrifice to bring death back
caused multiversal wide destruction
destroyed a shield made from all of molecule mans power
tanked an attack that destroyed several billion dimensions without a scratch
destroyed a few parallel universes with his presence
LT and the rest of the cosmic powers were afraid of him
beyonder used an attack that did not stop that killed everything in its path (cracked the surface of the earth)
now, unto my case.
lucifer is not physical, he IS will, gods will...
...thus can not be harmed by physical attacks. he has been stabbed and pierced and mutilated, but:
when he was mutilated, he allowed it. actually, he told Morpheus to do it.
when he was stabbed, all his power were in his two stolen feathers.
when he was pierced, he was greatly weakened by the journey to the world tree which requires sacrifice as shown above, being possessed by a piece of fenris's soul, fighting with his brother who far outclasses him, manipulating the dunamis demiurgos so that it both goes safety inside Elaine Belloc without harming her, and not letting it erase creation, not even the ground on which they were standing as shown below, and was preserving power to destroy the embodiment of ruin and destruction as shown below.
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the first scan: reserving power.
Morpheus of the endless puts his power in three main items: the helm, the sand pouch, and the twelve stones. among the twelve stones, the main stone, the materioptikon, houses more power than the rest (individually) fell into the hands of darren profit, who by fixing it destroyed and created 60 billion universes, then used the stone to make himself the lord of all possible universes and timelines. and that is only one fraction of dreams power.
Morpheus, as powerful as he is, was afraid of lucifer, even admitted lucifer was more powerful than himself by far.
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lucifer is all seeing, also, he can do things to the presences creation from his own. in his creation, he sets the rules. even death:
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the beyonder has not shown the ability to instantly erase a multiverse (in DC, a multiverse is infinite, and the DC multiverse equals the Marvel omniverse), yet Lucifer has shown the ability to tank a blast of dunamis demiurgos which can erase creation without a scratch, and used the power to make his own multiverse. lucifer made time, space, everything, for a whole multiverse: 'i am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.'
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confirmation that it was indeed a multiverse. also shows that lucifer can destroy souls in another creation from his own without moving a muscle. also shows the beings sent to kill him can not even scratch him.
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an interesting thing: apparently he does not need to manipulate time to be fast:
death is beneath lucifer:
another introduction. the mansions of silence is...well, i will let lokis cousin explain it for me:
and it is huge. it contains infinite realms and universes:
a few of the realms and universes they travelled through:
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and here comes lucifer, destroying the entire place with his presence:
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the place that gods, demons alike, goes after they die, or were killed a second time. and lucifer calls it fragile.
okay @jwwprod, your turn. after your post, i will post a final time. and let the votes pour in.
not that great a feat, seeing as that was exactly what god swamp thing did, and both controlled everything on earth.
Well it was stated that God Swamp Thing was about to become omnipotent but yea not one of Beyonder's best feats.
it was a self statement. and if people believe statements, then darkseid, sentry, odin, would all be omnipotent. the spectre would be gods power incarnate. and a burst of anger destroyed a galaxy? good feat. i will counter that later below.
I agree that most statments can be proven wrong (Like Darkseid, Sentry, Odin, Spectre, etc all being omnipotent) but there are other times where statments and be right.
This shows his power and that he is not omniscient, (far from it).
So? I never said Beyonder was omniscient (Because he wasn't) but you don't really have to be all knowing to be all powerful I mean look at Azathoth from the Lovecraft verse.
so he has the power to erase the concept of death throughout the multiverse, but it leaves him drained. this shows his power is not infinite; destroying death used up a lot of his power
Well he really did was put almost all of his powers into the cup that Death drank, he most likely could have destroyed Death without putting most of his powers in a cup.
lol, this shows that by klling death, it drained him so much that he only has a small fraction left. and it, again, was a statement.
Well think about it, when the Beyonder put most of his powers in the cup and he was below the cosmic beings like Living Tribunal and Eternity, then why didn't they attack him when they showed up in front of him and Dave? I mean you know they would have attacked the Beyonder if they had the chance, maybe it was because the Beyonder was still actually more powerful then all of them combined! even with only a small portion of his powers left!
where was it stated to be able to withstand all the powers from the cosmic powers?
Well it wasn't acttualy stated but think about it, Molecule Man was also more powerful then all the cosmic beings (including LT & Eternity) and when he used all of his powers to create the dome it must also mean *Cha-Ching!* you guessed it!
i will assume that he means he is everything in his universe.
As a matter of fact he does! not to mention that he universe also dwarfs the main Marvel multiverse.
again, a self statement.
And yet this statment has also been proven true.
post retcon? i thought when we first decided to do this, we are using pre retcon beyonder.
Well one of the main reasons I decided to use Post-Retcon feats as well was becasue even Post-Retcon Beyonder (Both Cosmic Cube & Inhuman) have some op feats, and you can also use some of the feats from New 52 Lucifer if you like.
lucifer is not physical, he IS will, gods will...
To bad that some of the cosmic beings in Marvel are also not physical yet they are not on LT's level (Let alone PR Beyonder's level).
...thus can not be harmed by physical attacks. he has been stabbed and pierced and mutilated, but:
when he was mutilated, he allowed it. actually, he told Morpheus to do it.
when he was stabbed, all his power were in his two stolen feathers.
when he was pierced, he was greatly weakened by the journey to the world tree which requires sacrifice as shown above, being possessed by a piece of fenris's soul, fighting with his brother who far outclasses him, manipulating the dunamis demiurgos so that it both goes safety inside Elaine Belloc without harming her, and not letting it erase creation, not even the ground on which they were standing as shown below, and was preserving power to destroy the embodiment of ruin and destruction as shown below.
Impressive but now does this put Lucifer above Living Tribunal let along Beyonder.
Morpheus of the endless puts his power in three main items: the helm, the sand pouch, and the twelve stones. among the twelve stones, the main stone, the materioptikon, houses more power than the rest (individually) fell into the hands of darren profit, who by fixing it destroyed and created 60 billion universes, then used the stone to make himself the lord of all possible universes and timelines. and that is only one fraction of dreams power.
Morpheus, as powerful as he is, was afraid of lucifer, even admitted lucifer was more powerful than himself by far.
Impressive, but PR Beyonder was more powerful then all the cosmic powers of Marvel including Living Tribunal (Who is the judge of the omniverse and shaped two megaversal beings), Eternity (Who has shown the ability to recrate the entire multiverse in an instance), the Celestials (Which a group of high tier ones turned a universe into a multiverse).
lucifer is all seeing, also, he can do things to the presences creation from his own. in his creation, he sets the rules. even death
That's impressive, but Post-Retcon Beyonder has done similer feats to this.
the beyonder has not shown the ability to instantly erase a multiverse (in DC, a multiverse is infinite, and the DC multiverse equals the Marvel omniverse), yet Lucifer has shown the ability to tank a blast of dunamis demiurgos which can erase creation without a scratch, and used the power to make his own multiverse. lucifer made time, space, everything, for a whole multiverse: 'i am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.'
The Beyonder can and has shown the ability to destroy/recreate a multiverse, infact even "Post-Retcon Beyonder" has shown that ability to recreate/destroy a multiverse in an istance, and where was it stated that the explosion would erase the multiverse? I can accepted destroying it but I want to know where it was stated that it would erase the multiverse? and making his own multiverse is impressive but that's something Living Tribunal can do occasionally (let alown Pre-Retcon Beyonder).
An interesting thing: apparently he does not need to manipulate time to be fast
Every abstract in Marvel has the ability to be omnipresent yet they were still leagues below Beyonder.
death is beneath lucifer
So Lucifer is above Death? that's adorable, Living Tribunal is also beyond Death yet Living Tribunal was still vastly inferior to Beyonder during SW2.
another introduction. the mansions of silence is...well, i will let lokis cousin explain it for me, and it is huge. it contains infinite realms and universes
Imperssive :)
a few of the realms and universes they travelled through
Yea that is really cool.
and here comes lucifer, destroying the entire place with his presence
How that is really impressive :) ok now it's my turn.
Post-Retcon beyonder (Cosmic Cube):
Now before people come and say "Why are you also using Post-Retcon Beyonder feats" because even Post-Retcon Beyonder (Both Cosmic Cube & Inhuman) have some impressive feats, first that's start with the Cosmic Cube Beyonder:
So in Fantastic Four #319 the F4 along with Doom meet the Beyonder, who now, is the living embodiment of a whole universe:
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And the powers power is great enough that he has more power in the smallest electron of his little finger than you have in an entire galaxy:
And here comes the very big one :3 in Fantastic four annual #27 The Beyonder is extracted from Kosmos (a feminine form which the Beyonder took after he merged with the molecule man to become a complete cosmic cube directly after the events of Secret Wars II), and goes on to battle Owen. Their battle was Trans-Multiversal in scale...... yea that's right! not multiversal but "Trans-Multiversal"! Which gives huge problems for the time variance authority (see last 2 scans, each paper represents an entire timeline/universe):
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After His fight with Owen, Beyonder goes back to his Kosmos-female-form. After Which, Kosmos decided to take a mortal form (while still retaining the female form), known as the Maker.
How this feat alone is very imperessive, especially considering that effecting everything on a Trans-Multiversal in scale is a very rare feat, hell even the battle between Pre-Retcon Beyonder & Molecule Man was only multivesal in scale, so this is saying much, but it's not over yet.
In Thanos #8: Thanos recalls meeting the Maker/Beyonder – a being of unlimited power. Maker shut down her own mind (for reasons unknown). If her mind comes together, she could destroy the universe on a whim:
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And in Thanos #9: Maker escapes her crèche -- a specialized prison which is powered by the expansion of the universe -- and goes on to destroy a major portion of the Klyn itself:
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Despite Maker‘s great power, it turns out that it was significantly holding the true power of the Beyonder back. Maker acted as a prison for the Beyonder. Should the maker form (the mortal form) be destroyed, the Beyonder will be unleashed upon the universe, so Thanos shut down her mind, imprisoning the Beyonder inside the maker mortal form. However, Maker was seen dead in Annihilation, so the Beyonder's whereabouts were left unknown.
And here's Cosmic Cube Beyonder's bio page from OHOTMU Master Edition #35:
Ok so that does it for the Cosmic Cube Beyonder how for Inhuman Beyonder.
Post-Retcon beyonder (Inhuman/Mutant):
So in New Avengers Illuminati v2 #3: Beyonder’s latest origins (retconned yet again): Beyonder is revealed to be an inhuman mutant:
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So then the illuminati track down the Beyonder (who has just been revealed to be an inhuman mutant) into an asteroid belt which resembles the Manhattan Island. Turns out, the Beyonder created the whole thing to play with. When the Illuminati approach him, he starts granting their wishes and bend reality (upsetting the natural order of things), so he is commanded by his king (black bolt) to leave the universe. However he continues his game after they leave (note that it i stated that the Beyonder defies all time and space and that hi very existence upsets the natural order of the universe):
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also a few years later there was a mini series called "Spiderman & Secret Wars" which gives us a additional details about how Doom confronted the Beyonder (who, according to the latest portrayal, is an inhuman mutant) in his realm – While flying into the beyond-realm to challenge the Beyonder, Doom sends Spiderman and Wolverine with him, he battles the Beyonder, draining him of his power, but the power momentarily goes to spider-man, who in that moment – while in possession of the Beyonder’s power - "remade all of creation " (AKA the multiverse). After which the power goes to Doom:
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Beyonder-amped-Spiderman also managed to defeat a bunch of super-villains including Galactus and molecule man (who had mental blocks at the time):
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And for an important note: Spiderman possessed Beyonder’s power for one billionth of a second! Yea that's right, not a minute! not a second! but a billionth of a second!:
Hence Peter’s comment: in that moment, which is this moment, I remade "all of creation"(AKA the multiverse) (here's the panel again just to confirm it):
So While it seemed like Peter possessed the Beyonder’s powers for months, in actuality he only had it for 1 billionth of a second, in which he managed to remake all of creation.
Note: Chronologically, this takes place during Secret Wars, I just posted it here so that it can be under the lit of feats for the inhuman mutant Beyonder.
Okay I'm finally done, sorry for the delay and this will be my final post until the vote can be opened.
So you make your last post then I will let post and see what they think.
not that great a feat, seeing as that was exactly what god swamp thing did, and both controlled everything on earth.
Well it was stated that God Swamp Thing was about to become omnipotent but yea not one of Beyonder's best feats.
it was stated, though even a gift spell from the fire elemental gods to john constantine was enough to depower him an hour. and the word stated that. while i do not dare doubt the word, he is not a good source of information for even though he read from the book of destiny, he still was surprised by tefe and was temporarily vanquished. having said that, god swamp thing never showed anything that even suggests he was nigh omnipotent. controlling and becoming everything on earth is a good feat, but omnipotence? nigh omnipotence? not at all.
it was a self statement. and if people believe statements, then darkseid, sentry, odin, would all be omnipotent. the spectre would be gods power incarnate. and a burst of anger destroyed a galaxy? good feat. i will counter that later below.
I agree that most statments can be proven wrong (Like Darkseid, Sentry, Odin, Spectre, etc all being omnipotent) but there are other times where statments and be right.
okay, i will show whether he proved himself or not in my concluding statements.
This shows his power and that he is not omniscient, (far from it).
So? I never said Beyonder was omniscient (Because he wasn't) but you don't really have to be all knowing to be all powerful I mean look at Azathoth from the Lovecraft verse.
you never did. while that is true, dr doom stated that omniscience is a side effect of omnipotence once or something like that. i am preventing you from saying that like brutus prevented caesar from becoming king lol. and to prevent readers from jumping to conclusions.
so he has the power to erase the concept of death throughout the multiverse, but it leaves him drained. this shows his power is not infinite; destroying death used up a lot of his power
Well he really did was put almost all of his powers into the cup that Death drank, he most likely could have destroyed Death without putting most of his powers in a cup.
yes, he most likely could have. though you have no way of proving it and that is beside the point; my point is he needs to use up almost all but a fraction of his power to kill death, not whether he needs the cup or not.
lol, this shows that by klling death, it drained him so much that he only has a small fraction left. and it, again, was a statement.
Well think about it, when the Beyonder put most of his powers in the cup and he was below the cosmic beings like Living Tribunal and Eternity, then why didn't they attack him when they showed up in front of him and Dave? I mean you know they would have attacked the Beyonder if they had the chance, maybe it was because the Beyonder was still actually more powerful then all of them combined! even with only a small portion of his powers left!
well, for one, if they did, then the story would have ended and it would have been very disappointing. secondly, when have you seen LT attack anyone without judging first? LT is not a superhero like superman, nor a vengeful spirit like spectre. guy is more like nix uotan, the judge of all evil type.
where was it stated to be able to withstand all the powers from the cosmic powers?
Well it wasn't acttualy stated but think about it, Molecule Man was also more powerful then all the cosmic beings (including LT & Eternity) and when he used all of his powers to create the dome it must also mean *Cha-Ching!* you guessed it!
molecule man is LTs superior in raw power, but in the pre recton version, his powers are purely physical. to someone like, for example, michael demiurgos, a physical barrier is much less hard to break than a mental barrier made of of mystical energy and stuff.
i will assume that he means he is everything in his universe.
As a matter of fact he does! not to mention that he universe also dwarfs the main Marvel multiverse.
kind of useless to state that right? and how can a universe dwarf another? both are limitless. there is no 'more powerful universe'. though if you mean size, then that is impossible if the marvel multiverse has an infinite amount of universes like DC. nothing can be bigger than infinity. there can be more variety, like more kinds of universes while the other multiverse has only branches of the original, but it can not be bigger. the man who theorized about the levels of infinity was more of a philosopher, for even his own teacher disapproves of his theory, as do the modern scientists, who call it a theory, a kind of philosophy, but not math. i explained this many things because you did not specify whether you meant in power or size.
again, a self statement.
And yet this statment has also been proven true.
we shall see
explanations
lucifer is not physical, he IS will, gods will...
To bad that some of the cosmic beings in Marvel are also not physical yet they are not on LT's level (Let alone PR Beyonder's level).
this merely meant he could not be harmed physically, not even with the weapons made to kill divine beings.
An interesting thing: apparently he does not need to manipulate time to be fast
Every abstract in Marvel has the ability to be omnipresent yet they were still leagues below Beyonder.
this is crucial. omnipresence and instantaneous reaction time and speed are two completely different things. some can achieve that through speed, some, like eternity, kismet, spectre, are either the universes themselves, or the manifestations, or cosmic awareness on a physical level. but other beings like the KC flash, the runner.....they achieve nigh omnipresence through pure speed. second, you are not pitting characters against each other, butcomparing power levels. many people do this with high tier beings because they have nothing BUT power, though in some cases, if one being has deadly power while the other has less but is much faster than the first being, the first being can do nothing to the second. while all i have to prove is that lucifer can hurt beyonder.
rebuttals
Now before people come and say "Why are you also using Post-Retcon Beyonder feats" because even Post-Retcon Beyonder (Both Cosmic Cube & Inhuman) have some impressive feats, first that's start with the Cosmic Cube Beyonder:
So in Fantastic Four #319 the F4 along with Doom meet the Beyonder, who now, is the living embodiment of a whole universe:
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being the living embodiment of a universe is nothing to beings of such power, for: kismet, the universal, IS a universe too, though she was barely able to beat imperiex prime
And the powers power is great enough that he has more power in the smallest electron of his little finger than you have in an entire galaxy:
another self statement. wow, that is a LOT of statements being used here. though even if this were true, just one universe has infinite galaxies. and compared to infinity, the number of electrons he has is just a really big number. this though shows he is made of electrons, the same stuff lucifer can easily warp infinitely on creation levels.
And here comes the very big one :3 in Fantastic four annual #27 The Beyonder is extracted from Kosmos (a feminine form which the Beyonder took after he merged with the molecule man to become a complete cosmic cube directly after the events of Secret Wars II), and goes on to battle Owen. Their battle was Trans-Multiversal in scale...... yea that's right! not multiversal but "Trans-Multiversal"! Which gives huge problems for the time variance authority (see last 2 scans, each paper represents an entire timeline/universe):
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this i have already countered twice. the DC multiverse is as big as the marvel omniverse because in DC, the biggest thing IS a multiverse. the mansions of silence houses infinite universes, dimensions, rejected creations.....if separated from creation, then to DC, it is another multiverse, as big as the one it was separated from, but has less variety. another example of this is that lucifers creation is a multiverse, though the original has far more KINDS of universes, they are the same size. Eline's universe is smaller than both, but combined with the two other creations, the combination is still a multiverse to DC. the definition of the size of creations are completely different in marvel and DC.
After His fight with Owen, Beyonder goes back to his Kosmos-female-form. After Which, Kosmos decided to take a mortal form (while still retaining the female form), known as the Maker.
How this feat alone is very imperessive, especially considering that effecting everything on a Trans-Multiversal in scale is a very rare feat, hell even the battle between Pre-Retcon Beyonder & Molecule Man was only multivesal in scale, so this is saying much, but it's not over yet.
In Thanos #8: Thanos recalls meeting the Maker/Beyonder – a being of unlimited power. Maker shut down her own mind (for reasons unknown). If her mind comes together, she could destroy the universe on a whim:
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so....this proves what? that she can shut down her own mind? and if it starts again, she will have exactly the same amount of power she always had before the shutdown? i think that is it.
And in Thanos #9: Maker escapes her crèche -- a specialized prison which is powered by the expansion of the universe -- and goes on to destroy a major portion of the Klyn itself:
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makes me think of another similar prison, one in which high father trapped himself in, and darkseid easily took him out of.
DARKSEID.
And here's Cosmic Cube Beyonder's bio page from OHOTMU Master Edition #35:
well....one look at this and you can see a place that needs correction: his intellect is not immeasurable. far from it. and you admitted it yourself. the other physical stats are the same as lucifers, except lucifers reflexes are already described as as close to being INSTANTANEOUS. his power was described as unlimited reality warping, which is the same as lucifers, though lucifer has other abilities such as light bringer flames, divine powers.....and lucifer is also much smarter than beyonder, and has shown it. many times.
So then the illuminati track down the Beyonder (who has just been revealed to be an inhuman mutant) into an asteroid belt which resembles the Manhattan Island. Turns out, the Beyonder created the whole thing to play with. When the Illuminati approach him, he starts granting their wishes and bend reality (upsetting the natural order of things), so he is commanded by his king (black bolt) to leave the universe. However he continues his game after they leave (note that it i stated that the Beyonder defies all time and space and that hi very existence upsets the natural order of the universe):
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well, this is nothing special. granting wishes shows immense power, but the voiceless gods which lucifer defeated in his weakened state had the same power. presence disrupting a universe < destroying infinite universes.
also a few years later there was a mini series called "Spiderman & Secret Wars" which gives us a additional details about how Doom confronted the Beyonder (who, according to the latest portrayal, is an inhuman mutant) in his realm – While flying into the beyond-realm to challenge the Beyonder, Doom sends Spiderman and Wolverine with him, he battles the Beyonder, draining him of his power, but the power momentarily goes to spider-man, who in that moment – while in possession of the Beyonder’s power - "remade all of creation " (AKA the multiverse). After which the power goes to Doom:
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remaking creation is not even comparable to making one. nix uotan remade 52 universes into the original infinite universes too. remaking a creation means warping the forces that already exist, lucifer warped power into the forces.
Beyonder-amped-Spiderman also managed to defeat a bunch of super-villains including Galactus and molecule man (who had mental blocks at the time):
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he defeated the third and most weakest version of MM. and even beings like imperiex can give normal galactus hell, and imperiex is so far below even the spectre it is not even funny.
And for an important note: Spiderman possessed Beyonder’s power for one billionth of a second! Yea that's right, not a minute! not a second! but a billionth of a second!:
lucifer once made so that if anyone tries closing the gate to the primal monitor, the rest of creation will be unmade too:
but later, he did the impossible, he unmade the paradox. note that this happened when lucifer was still weakened because god had left creation, and he was weakened further by all the battles, what with him destroying the concept of destruction, him sending a messenger to the presence outside creation....
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lucifers lightbringer flames, the flames from the fire in which he birthed, the flames that were before there was creation, before there was time, space, death, destiny and all that, is enough to destroy the multiversal indestructible book of destiny, the source of destinys devastating power (destiny being the second most powerful endless, even more powerful than dream, who is either the third or the fourth below destruction):
the flames are powerful enough to destroy even the logos, known to most as the voice (of the presence) which sang creation into being. (not to be confused with the logoz, the connection the spectre has to the presence. (i have always wondered how ones voice can be a separate aspect. this explains it; his words are so pure they do not rot or die, and keeps on making the same sound. kind of like me saying shut up, and the two words linger there. except mine is not holy.)
the logozthe logos
okay, here is the destroying bit:
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first, here is proof of what the power demiurgic is capable of (there will be a lot of info about michael D, but it will build up to my last case)
first, proof michaels power is limitless as stated by god himself:
the ability to renew creationand the ability to erase it
to erase something and to destroy something are two different things. one leaves nothing behind while the other leaves something. the fact that he said nothing will be left means it can erase the very thing it can create. that is everything.
now, lucifer can tank a full blast while right next to it. without a scratch. so i wonder how beyonder can harm him at full power:
people know that the demiurgic power is the basic building block for everything, matter, energy, even abstracts like time, death, distance, emotions....here is proof:
when michael stopped renewing creation, everything was slowly fading out of existence. first, matter, energy and all that is physical. in the secondary stage, abstract things like time, emotions, souls, and even willpower(this is crucial) was fading.
for example, (because of only too many reasons, i can not send emails from my iPad to my computer, words can not describe how much i want to turn my mac and iPad into humans and kill them to death)
anyway, in page 2 of lucifer, number 66, quote:
'i saw that the mass of humanity were no longer actively pursuing death and destruction. they had reached an even lower nadir. now they simply waited, devoid of will, for death to come and claim them. with yahweh gone, and the divine name erased from creation, the human soul was winding down like a clock.'
and in page 8, lucifer number 59, quote:
'nothing breaks, as yet. nothing falls. but the hands of artists lose their cunning, the minds of musicians their sweet calculus. and emotions die too. lover looks at lover, parent looks at child. feeling nothing save the dead grey void of anomie. the world loses its savor, the senses dull. sweet, sour, bitter, salt, all bleed into one nothingness. in sheer despair of feeling anything at all, people begin to hurt themselves. it is yahwehs name, written in all of us. with yahweh gone, it fades. and we fade too, by inexorable logic.'
yes....and now we recognize their power. lucifer and michael not only has power over cosmic, magic, and divine power; they have power over emotion, reality, logic, senses, will, time.....EVERYTHING.
CONCLUSION
both of us has provided feats that disapprove of how we think of these two characters. now no one can just mindlessly say 'beyonder equals TOAA' or 'lucifer is only as strong as LT'. because before you repeat ideas that ignorant people have said, and other people have copied, THINK. this applies to me as well.
i think these two characters are both on the top level, with one difference; beyonder has shown emotions, and a lack of will and intellect, while lucifer could manipulate will, which beyonder has not shown to be able to defend against.
though i think based on the feats i have provided, lucifer still wins, even without the will manipulation: being able to create the concept of death > using up almost all power just to kill death. a death that is much weaker (but equally hard to kill).
this concludes our debate, again, apologies. it is my life, my i can not control the Chinese government 'i just came here for vacation, i demand use of my gmail, and google!'
I agree that Beyonder was not equal to TOAA, though I do personally Beyonder should beat out Lucifer in terms of power, though Lucifer has the edge in intelligence.
Living Tribunal vs Lucifer is debatable, some would say Living Tribunal would stomp Lucifer while others have said that Lucifer would beat Living Tribunal though that for another time.
But anyways out of us both on who was the better debater I think I'll have to say you were, you did a great job debating for Lucifer and you posted some great scans.
@jwwprod: thanks for saying that, but No matter, i would not mind losing this for it is one of my first. I still have a lot to learn. Tagged@mysticmedivh: Lol. Though you can just vote, the tagging is random.
One of the best debates for the top tier characters, and was one of the best to read through as well.
Van_Cere: You knowledge on Lucifer is almost unparallel, and you definitely improved Lucifer's reputation here, IMO.
@JwwProd: Great scans for the Beyonder, you truly portrayed him as virtually the biggest threat ever in Marvel and Dc; or one of them.
By a hair, just based on sheer power, I give my vote to @JwwProd: nothing more than you displayed he was the more powerful character in general; and as the both of you portrayed them to well, IMO, to choose who was the superior debater, I feel I almost have to choose via the power shown.
@van_cere: lol yeah, it will be time im about to hit he phone soon gonna be going to work for a short shift, so i wont necessary have the time to read, but by the end of the night i will be able to give u an answer.
The vote is difficult as in a debate you have to judge not only the arguments but also how they were presented and how you were able to rebut the other one.
@van_cere: you didn't convince me at all that Lucifer was at the level of the Beyonder as most of your scans were about statements, comparisons and other non-feats parameters. But somewhat, you managed to corner @jwwprod who was defending PR-Beyonder at full power. That's impressive, and that's why you have my vote.
@jwwprod: great use of the scans from SW and SWII (some I didn't since the 80s), you did a nice a rebuttal about Lucifer initially but in my opinion, at the end you were somewhat yourself convinced that both characters were more or less at the same level. But thanks again for this very nice CaV!
@bullpr: Thanks for voting!@killerwasp: Oh, so NOW it is 2:0. Gotcha @jwwprod: Wait. I got it wrong again. Um...can you count the votes? I really am not good with numbers
@jwwprod: @van_cere: you both are really good debaters and i always thought beyonder was unbeatable but van_cere almost convinced me but i think beyonder or stalemate since i do not have as good knowledge about these characters as you guys have but i give van_cere my vote because he actually provided insane feats for lucifer but both had really good grammar and both provided good scans i still think van cere did a slightly better job in this debate good job both of you
Van Cre has my vote i think he present Lucifer. being the dominant one just a little bit better but jwwproud is a beast he one debater i would hate to debate he would destroy my tail. But Van Cre has my vote for this round
@van_cere: @jwwprod: very nicely done gentlemen. Intriguing read, and using beings of this magnitude are always tricky to debate with (for multitudes of reasons) but you two did a spot on job.
I will have to give my vote in this to @jwwprod if only slightly. I feel that was the more solid case, and did a slightly better job at convincing me of the win. Well thought out, and solid counters. Good use of scans without overcrowding the page and put forth healthy, informative explanations to go along with.
hat tips and all mates.........see ya both in a CaV someday hopefully..............
@van_cere: You got my vote buddy. I have always found Beyonder even at Pre Retcon levels to be overrated in terms of power. Good job on providing adequate scans of Lucifer's powers. I am pretty sure more than 90& of this site did not know the true power of Lucifer before your extensive usage of his scans in battle threads.
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