#1 Posted by God_Spawn (37901 posts) - - Show Bio

vs

Location:

Equipment

Train: Standard gear. No nanites.

Wrath: 2 orichalcum sabres (same material Hades is made of)

Rules

In character

Random encounter

Win via death/KO/incapacitation

Start 50 yards from each other.

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#2 Posted by God_Spawn (37901 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn:

This works, I'm just researching Train right now, so I don't underestimate him or something.

#4 Posted by God_Spawn (37901 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by God_Spawn (37901 posts) - - Show Bio

Obligatory Punk gif.

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#7 Posted by God_Spawn (37901 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo: I'll start then with a brief overview of some of Train's basics.

Redirecting multiple bullets from a trained killer rapidly firing twin pistols at him to the point dust is kicked up then proceeds to fire two bullets into the barrels of his guns. Last 2 scans are inverted.

He can easily leap 6-7 meters which is about 20-22 feet. He can also cartwheel dodging multiple goons with machine guns firing at him while taking them out in non-lethal shots.

He can hold a grenade then escape with almost zero damage just as it explodes. Last scan for some reason is missing but he is elsewhere with just part of his coat smoldering.

An accuracy feet which he deems a rusty one. He shoots a soda from a nice distance and "misses" 2 shots when he tried putting all six shots through the same hole and succeeds putting 4 through the same hole while the can was in mid-air.

Shot through a crowd of people to hit his target with a non-lethal bullet.

The scans are pieced. After scan 2 he relaxes his hit and falls but gets up so the softness of his neck muscles relaxed the blow. Just after the 3rd scan, he kicks the guy lol.

He turns and intercepts bullets from across a ballroom. 4th scan is just more bullet deflection.

He can dodge bullets near point black after fired. He can also tag a guy who can punch bullets back at people in 0.57 seconds (previous page but no scan) near full force of which they are fired, using perfectly calculated ricochet shots and to do so with just barely scraping his cheek to draw blood. Note the guy can create after images and swing his fist so fast and powerful that he generate mach speed fist projectile forces.

Train can also dodge a close quarter full machine gun clip from two machine guns from a trained killer and also swing his own gun so fast he create wind pressures to counter hell fire projections.

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#8 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, so with my researching of Train done (Before I go into this, I haven't watched the anime or read the manga, I'm going off of wikis and such for my knowledge)


Bradley outclasses Train in a variety of areas.

In a battle of wits, Bradley would definitely take down Train. The man had lifelong training and was handpicked by Father and the military.

In terms of swordsmanship, Bradley was able to take down a bunch of Briggs troops, a tank, a military officer and then take on two of arguably the best fighters within the show with two daggers, not even being the weapons of his choice. After being distracted and injured, he went on to face Scar and almost kill him, had it not been for another distraction.

In terms of combat speed, Bradley was able to deflect gun fire and rockets, as well as run up a ladder so fast that he hardly allowed the girl, who was a bodyguard to the prince and also a great combatant, to react.

#9 Edited by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh god damn it GS, you beat me to it.

Okay, I guess this will be a reply then.

Bradley blocking machine gun fire, cutting a missle in half, killing a bunch of troops before they know it, and then taking down a tank.

#10 Posted by God_Spawn (37901 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo: Ok, I know about the tank feat. But how is that exactly gonna beat me :P?

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#11 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

Train Heartnet wins (rather easily in my opinion).

#12 Edited by jashro44 (21891 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: This is a challenge a viner. Your suppose to wait till the end of the debate and vote on who put up a better argument.

#13 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: Oh didn't notice to tell you the truth. Now that you mention it I feel kind of silly responding so early lol.

#14 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn:

This my first time, give me a break ;_;

Anyways, Bradley likes to play close, and with his speed, he'll be able to make the gap, and even though train does have a few offensive moves, Bradley is the much better swordsman and would be able to take him down.

#15 Posted by God_Spawn (37901 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo said:

@god_spawn:

This my first time, give me a break ;_;

Anyways, Bradley likes to play close, and with his speed, he'll be able to make the gap, and even though train does have a few offensive moves, Bradley is the much better swordsman and would be able to take him down.

I WILL BREAK YOU!!!

Anyways. I can fully understand Bradley liking to play close with it being his bread and butter. Train has fought swordsmen in his time and his fights with Creed show that. Creed himself is a pretty ridiculous swordsman, considering his sword is invisible, can extend to 80 meters, and has cut helicopters in half like nothing. Train has gotten around this by using his ridiculously durable gun, Hades, as a shield and by focusing on the angles of the hilt and arc of the swing of Creed's arm.

I'll also upload a good chunk of his fight with Creed. It has a few reflex feats in there too. This is Creed in his 3rd form. Btw, that Creed was also slashing bullets so fast, Train couldn't picture what happened at first. By focusing he realized Creed was just moving so fast and strong that he looked like he had a invisible shield around him.

So Train has the speed to keep up with Bradley and fight close range if need be. I think he can take Wrath up close, but with Wrath being on par or slightly more skilled than Train and with two swords that won't be breaking, Train will have trouble and I can say with his eye and speed, Wrath can do it.

Now here is where things get tricky with Train. When he fights Creed, he is serious. Train actually takes a lot of fights very lightly; Wrath does not. Train has underestimated 3 foes before and it almost having it bite him in the butt before he gets serious and turns the tide. He's underestimated Lugart Won's speed, which he could've died. He underestimated River Zastory and was surprised when River punched bullets back at him. Train is also morally upright. He tends to use regular bullets first to test his opponents and considering he has a 6 shooter revolver, it does take reload time. I purposely chose this environment because it is enclosed and tbh, so many people have blocked Train's shots from Creed to Kranz Maduke (blind guy with a knife), that a competent swordsman like Wrath can take advantage since he has enough skill, speed, and agility to possibly get the distance or take advantage of Train when he has to reload or get in a crucial cut when Train is testing him.

But on the flipside, once things get serious, I think Train has the versatility and skill to get a shot or two on Wrath to get a bigger opening. Train has mixed freeze bullets with regular bullets before so the swords could be useless since it's compressed liquid nitrogen later on in the fight. And I can see a counter for that eye since Train has used flash bangs and smoke bombs before to gain edges and he has a tear gas bullet (which he has only used once though) to possibly gain an edge. I don't see him using the burst bullet though considering he usually uses it as a more extreme measure vs incapacitating opponents, which he usually tries to do.

I think Wrath is definitely ruthless enough to gain an edge in the beginning and possibly garner a win or two since Train does goof off and underestimate random opponents quite often and he can't do that here. However, he has the skill to at least maintain some close gap measures along with his black claw and black cross to get a melee strike and his variety of bullets will be crucial since honestly, he has had a lot of issues tagging competent swordsmen. Also he can ricochet shots real well, but considering this environment is so awkwardly shaped and I doubt bullets will ricochet off the grass well, I don't see it becoming an issue unless he gets Wrath in the stands but that would kind of be an issue as well since he is 90% range player.

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#16 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn:

And I can see a counter for that eye since Train has used flash bangs and smoke bombs before to gain edges and he has a tear gas bullet (which he has only used once though) to possibly gain an edge

Bradley has shown the ability to oversee any type of gas with that eye when he was fighting Ling and Lan Fan

Like you said, Train likes to goof off during fights until he is fully aware of what the opponent is capable of. Wrath is probably going to be looking to finish the fight as quick as possible, so I feel as though those two attitudes are going to be a factor in this.

As for Train's close quarters attacks, Bradley would be able to read Train's movements and know what was going to happen and promptly block them.

While Bradley isn't a complete Homunculus, He's still pretty durable, being able to fight to his death while only having one eye and no use of his other hand. I don't feel as though a single attack from Train would be able to put him down.

As for Bradley vs Train in close quarters, I have a hard time thinking that Train would be able to overcome Bradley's offensive.

#17 Posted by God_Spawn (37901 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo:

Bradley has shown the ability to oversee any type of gas with that eye when he was fighting Ling and Lan Fan

I didn't see any gas. I just saw the flashbang with Bradley mentioning he didn't blind that one eye, not that the eye is immune to gases and flashbangs which is a common tactic Train uses so I'd expect it to be used more than once. But to be fair to Train, he normally uses his variety of bullets first. So he would use the trick bullets first. If he does shoot Wrath before the grenades.

Like you said, Train likes to goof off during fights until he is fully aware of what the opponent is capable of. Wrath is probably going to be looking to finish the fight as quick as possible, so I feel as though those two attitudes are going to be a factor in this.

Which is why I mentioned Train's attitude and honestly, that is really the only chance I see Bradley getting the upperhand. He still managed to avoid being hit ( or react to said attacks) when he underestimated River and Lugart, so just because he does goof off a bit, it isn't making him automatically screwed.

While Bradley isn't a complete Homunculus, He's still pretty durable, being able to fight to his death while only having one eye and no use of his other hand. I don't feel as though a single attack from Train would be able to put him down.

That's more or less Bradley's pain tolerance, not his durability. Train is pretty high in pain tolerance as well since he's been bashed into a castle pillar so hard it caved in behind him, and while it briefly knocked him out, he was also fighting super power assassins (bullet dodgers, gravity manipulators, high tech soldiers etc) and only one of them I would say could have possibly defeated Wrath, but Shiki is for another day. So despite getting battered and bloodied for hours and hours, he still managed to fight and defeat Creed at his strongest.

As for Bradley vs Train in close quarters, I have a hard time thinking that Train would be able to overcome Bradley's offensive.

Even if he can't, Bradley will still have a hard time closing that gap though. Sure, he should deflect the initial shots but Train's versatility is still a big advantage despite Bradley's advantage of the eye and probable upclose skill, which isn't even that big considering Creed's skill is probably on par and he had a solid stat edge over Bradley and a bigger one when heading towards his level 3 Imagine Blade, which was the hypersonic one that swipes through bullets so fast it looks like he has an invisible shield. . He's got paralyzing bullets as well and the tear gas is still tear gas. It's gonna hurt, even if it doesn't cloud his "good" eye, the pain should be effective enough for even a brief opportunity for Train. And I actually went through the issues with the burst bullet, Train was willing to use them more than I thought. Even when he had no intention of killing a super powered foe, he used them a few times like when trying to subdue Creed in the end and shatter the imagine blade with the railgun power. He also used it against a big muscly killer and I forgot his name. He was also only trying to incapacitate him and bring him in. If it comes down to it, and things like freeze bullets won't work (those bullets will still provide a good way to incapacitate a weapon or if he manages to shoot Wrath himself). And another thing I do see being possible is Train might actually feign Wrath in close and sacrifice a limb to shoot him. He did it to Creed so he has no problem giving up a limb to win.

So while Train wasn't as fast as Creed in upper levels, he still managed to block a lot of his hits and those hits were faster than anything I have seen from Wrath. Not to mention Train's speed in bursts and agility to leap far is something that will help at least keep Wrath at some distance over Wrath's own, but not quite, as impressive speed.

Adding in things like grenades, which Train has used to gain distance and has even tossed and shot them before, it furthers that gap closing issue. And also worth noting is Wrath doesn't always resort to his Ultimate Eye so it's even possible that Train's versatility will become the ace and get Wrath into a situation, like getting some shots on him with a burst bullet, freezing a sword, grenade toss+bullet, before it becomes a factor. And IIRC, the Ultimate Eye predicts movements, not necessarily a full on precog. So Wrath won't know what type of bullet Train will be using and deflecting a burst bullet, freeze bullet, tear gas bullet etc, won't end well.

Wrath isn't untouchable by any means and as far as I have seen, Train has the versatility, stats, and skill set to give Wrath hell either long or short range. And I only see it as a matter of time that Wrath will full due to a multitude of factors brought by said versatility and speed of Train.

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#18 Edited by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn:

This is why I don't debate characters I don't know O_O

Okay, so what happens now? You beat me, so do we let this thread die?

#19 Posted by God_Spawn (37901 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo: We let people vote. And to be fair, I forgot a lot of small details about Wrath that made this somewhat of an issue for me :P.

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#20 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio
#21 Posted by God_Spawn (37901 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio
#23 Edited by God_Spawn (37901 posts) - - Show Bio

@walzo: From what I remember, probably Jack. He's just ridiculous.

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#24 Posted by Walzo (4355 posts) - - Show Bio
#25 Edited by God_Spawn (37901 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12206 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Well, it was kinda obvious that you'd win, not that it would change the fact that Train would beat Wrath anyway, but it was made more plain to see. Creed vs Jack would be interesting for about 10 minutes, till everyone remembers all Jacks insane feats lol.

#27 Posted by jashro44 (21891 posts) - - Show Bio

I would have to give it to god_spawn. His points were simply more detailed.

#28 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

Gs. But for a first time this was a good attempt walzo :)

#29 Posted by God_Spawn (37901 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by Lvenger (20016 posts) - - Show Bio

Since I don't know these characters, my vote is based on who explained their feats the best and who put up the best case for them winning. In this debate the person who did this best IMO was @god_spawn: . He provided excellent coverage of Train's feats and strategies and demonstrated his superiority over King Bradley. But Walzo you put up a very brave fight! This was a great debate!

#31 Edited by laflux (16002 posts) - - Show Bio

Gs. But for a first time this was a good attempt walzo :)

Yes God_Spawn, you are still champ

For now................................