Welcome, Viners, to (hopefully) one of the best 2v2 CaVs Comic Vine has to offer! Some of the finest debaters on this fine website have come together to create a street level battle for the ages! Without further ado, let's introduce....
Team 1
Angel - represented by SirFizzWhiz
Deadpool - represented by TheNewBlueBeetle007
Team 2
Dara Brighton - represented by LukeHero
Zealot - represented by Sovereign 91001
Rules and Conditions
In character
Zealot is Pre-Flashpoint
Deadpool is serious, won't hallucinate, and the voices in his head won't distract him.
Welcome, Viners, to (hopefully) one of the best 2v2 CaVs Comic Vine has to offer! Some of the finest debaters on this fine website have come together to create a street level battle for the ages!
lets hope this lives up to it till the end.... do tag me
Considering SFW and Lukehero have more obscure characters than Zealot and Deadpool it makes sense for them to go first, so that we can formulate strategies more quickly; I don't know anything about Angel and Dara.
We also both get back-to-backs which is what you guys wanted. And if we decide to go the divide and conquer route each team will have the "final word," per se, in their respective 1v1s.
Angel, aka Angelus, aka The Vampire with a Soul, aka The Dark Avenger. Angel is your typical Vampire that was reborn in the 1700s as a blood sucking killing machine. He was so good as a vampire that he ended up being the number one Vampire in the world due to his combat skill, stats, and his smarts. Gypsies ended up cursing him with a soul right before the 1900s, in which Angelus the souless vampire given a soul became Angel. Anegl went through a tough time with his guilt, and finally met Buffy. After having many key adventures with her in Sunnydale, he ends up being the key figure in revolving apocalypses. He ends up becoming a Champion of the Powers That Be making him one of the toughest SOB on the planet and across other dimensions.
As a Vampire Angel has several abilities.
Immunity to Mental Powers.
Cannot die unless beheaded, heart stabbed with a wooden object, burned to ash, or sunlight.
Healing ability.
Super senses in smell and hearing.
Blood drinking ability.
Undead body with cold blood.
Super strength.
Super speed.
300 years of skill via training in various martial arts, weapons, and combat experience against the worst of this world and others outside of the dimension.
Typical Vampire abilities really. He is usually armed with his magical swords or regular swords, metal or wooden stakes, and stake spring load devices on his arms.
In this match I will be using his common used weapons. In this case his flaming hell fire sword.
A magical sword of Hellfire that Angel found in Wolfram and Heart. He used it heavily during After the Fall.
Steel Spring Loaded Stakes
These weapons are simply stakes that Angel keeps hidden in his sleeves. With a flick of effort he unleashes them to stab or use as weapon in hand to hand. He can also disconnect them with a flick and throw them as projectiles.
As well a healthy dose of wooden stakes to throw.
Not much else to say other than is a major threat when he gets his vamp face on.
Be very afraid.
Strategy
This is a close combat match, really not much to say other than how well our teams will match up in a sword fight. i think our team has the edge honestly. both of our team can tank blows that would kill a normal person. Thats our biggest advantage actually. While the argument for skill will be laid out i this match, our team has a huge advantage in the outset of tanking attacks that would likely KO or hinder your team. Not much else to go on till I see what the enemy team is bringing to me and my ally.
@sirfizzwhizz: @thenewbluebeetle007: I have to finish binge reading and collecting scans so I'm gonna go last, unless you guys are cool with waiting. Sov has his scans ready to go though it you tag and alert him. Also can you edit out our tags in the op. They keep giving me notifications.
There is a very small amount of comics that I classify as "must-read" material, but Deadpool is beyond a shadow of a doubt one of the few books that qualify as such. Wade Wilson is just hilarious every step of the away, and with his comedic dialogue he's made quite a name for himself. His unrelenting sense of humor coupled with his sporadic whims of killing create a fun environment for his comics to make money.
However, many people often sell him short as a clown, a joker who is there simply for the LULZ who defeats his enemies by "trolling" with his healing factor. In this CaV, whether my team wins or loses, I will destroy these notions.
So give it up for Wade Wilson, the Crimson Comedian, the Regeneratin' Degenerate, the Merc with a Mouth,
DEADPOOL!
Character Biography
The Basics
Occupation: Mercenary; former enforcer, government operative, sumo wrestler, soldier, others
Known Relatives: Unidentified parents, Gretchen (ex-wife), Shiklah (wife)
Wade Wilson grew up with an abusive father; his mother had died when he was young. One night when he was out on the town, his friend stole his daddy's gun and killed him. While still in his teens, Deadpool, after enlisting in the army for a short period of time, began his prosperous career as a mercenary.
Wade had a girlfriend, Vanessa, who at one point who he shared dreams with, but everything fell apart when he learned that he had cancer. He broke up with Vanessa because he didn't want her to be with a man whose death was imminent.
In Canada, he was offered hope in the form of Department K, a special weapons development branch of the Canadian government. Wilson became a test subject in Department K’s branch of the joint U.S./Canadian superhuman enhancement project, the Weapon X Program; his cancer was temporarily arrested via the implantation of a healing factor derived from another Department K agent, Wolverine.
Some heartbreak, stints as a mercenary, and a nasty break-up with Department K later, Deadpool was cursed by the Mad Titan Thanos so that he could never die (because Thanos was jealous of Deadpool's relationship with the female personification of death). His healing factor has brought him back from injuries that would've instantaneously killed a normal man.
Deadpool has tussled with everyone from the X-Men, to the Dark Avengers, to a zombified gaggle of undead presidents and a planet that snorts other planets (don't ask). His tenacity, healing factor, skill with a sword, and his (kind of) trusty sidekick, Bob, Agent of Hydra have allowed him to emerge out of these fights alive and well, and generally as the victor.
AND THAT AIN'T GONNA CHANGE IN THIS CaV!
Physical Stats // Abilities
Stats
Strength
Frankly, I am unsure on whether Deadpool has superhuman strength or not. I would think so based on feats, but I've seen no statements on panel indicating it.
Here Deadpool kicks a guy (IIRC it was Zeke but it might have been a zombie) so hard that the man is no longer visible. Exactly how far this is, I don't know, but the point I'm trying to make here is that Deadpool based on feats has superhuman strength, and though his strength does not have much application in his combat style, it is still an advantage for him.
Mobility: Speed / Reaction Time / Agility
Though I've never seen on panel statements saying so, I think it would be preposterous if Deadpool didn't have superhuman reaction time. His feats make him much faster than anything a normal human could do. I will go into depth with these feats throughout this debate, but here's an appetizer.
He's a casual bullet timer.
And he can move faster than the blink of an eye.
Regarding agility,
He's able to dance around Bullseye's projectiles; this is the same Bullseye that KOs people with paper airplanes by throwing them fast.
Healing Factor
This is what Deadpool is known for, and for good reason. His healing factor is arguably the best in the entire street tier. Just a small taste of what will be a huge part of this debate:
Gallery
Deadpool is impaled by an elephant tusk that goes straight through his abdomen. A few panels later, he's fighting Teddy Roosevelt like nothing happened.
Skill
Deadpool can stomp Captain America H2H. Although later Cap goes on to land a few hits, Deadpool could have easily snapped his neck if he wanted to.
This is what Wade does CASUALLY (at least Pre-Marvel Now). If he's not the best fighter here, he's certainly close.
I really don't want to post any other skill feats right now; I'm saving them for the debate itself. Just know that he's a top-tier fighter both with his swords and without it.
Gear
Katanas
Grenades
Guns
DISCLAIMER
In this debate, Deadpool is completely focused on the task at hand. He will not hallucinate, the voices in his head won't distract him, and he won't spend half of the battle monologuing. This means that opponents that normally beat him because of his silliness may be unable to.
A Short Preview of Our Strategy and Why We Will Win
Zealot was born on the planet Khera and imigrated to earth ~1,000 years ago. She is an insanely skilled fighter, widely considered one of the top dogs in the Wildstorm Universe. Her alien physiology grants her a few abilities:
Superhuman Strength
Superhuman Durability
Superhuman Agility/Reflexes
Superhuman Senses
Enhanced Healing
I'll put scans up for these as the need arises, no need in giving all the goods away upfront. :P Speaking of scans, with the limit in effect, I'll have to be a bit more judicious than I'm used to, so in an effort to keep track of what's from what I'll source the issues I got the scans from.
What Zealot brings to the table
As I touched on earlier Zealot eat, sleeps and breathes fighting and she's very, very good at it, back on Khera she created and lead an entire fighting order known as the Coda, one of the most respected (and feared) fighting orders in the entire Wildstorm Universe. Upon being stranded on earth she re-formed the order, in time the prowess off the Coda became so well known the legend of the Amazon's was born from it. The Coda fell into decline, betraying their principals and selling their services to the highest bidder. Disgusted by their actions Zealot made it her mission to hunt down and exterminate the bastardized Coda.
Zealot is over 1,000 years old, and most of the time she's been alive she's been fighting and honing her skills. To say she is a master level fighter is a sever understatement, in point of reference she has more battle experience than every other member of this CaV combined.
WildCats #7
During her time on Earth she's been a samurai, a soldier, goverment agent an assassin and served on numerous super teams. Zealot has seen and done it all; this gives her unrivaled strategic and tactical knowledge.
Gear
Not much to discuss here, Zealot likes blades and she carries quite a few of them:
Kursar Blades: Zealot's main weapon, described by Zealot as being sharp enough to shave the edges off of an electron and durable enough to absorb the heat of 1,000 suns; the Kursar blades have a sub atomic cutting edge and have been able to even pierce Mr. Majestic's skin. Zannah carries two as part of her standard gear, there is no real defense against this weapon if it connects it will cut through whatever it impacts.
Captain Atom: Armageddon #4
Honor Blade: A shorter sword; the honor blade is made of Kherubian steel and cloaked in a energy field, while not as sharp as the Kursar it still has excellent cutting power.
From Zealot #3
Throwing Blades: Zannah keeps half a dozen of these on the back of her costume ready to be used if she needs to attack from a distance.
From WildCats, #1
Strategy
Since Zealot has more tactical experience she'll be taking point, she and Dara will stick together, using the environment smartly and their abilities to track Deadpool and Angel. Nothing too in depth as their isn't much to work with so far. Since as @sirfizzwhizz put it this is a CQC fight this is going to come down to skill. I'd also add gear and tactics will factor as well, those three areas superior are where @lukehero and I excel. And while your team does advantages over ours, I don't think they'll be enough to give you the win.
I'm going to make the claim that Zannah is the most skilled fighter in this match by a healthy margin, and that by the end of this match that'll be readily apparent. However I don't want to get ahead of myself so I'll toss things over to Luke so he can get started.
One seemingly normal night Dara's family is having dinner & enjoying each other's company when 3 weird strangers storm into her house & demand her father hand over their magical sword. Her father being unwilling to part with said sword her family is slaughtered in the process. Once Dara finds the sword it gives her a number of superhuman powers including:
This is one of the few advantages I solidly believe and will prove that my character posses over Deadpool & Angel. Deadpool & Angel are both speedy characters with some very impressive feats, but I will show throughout this Cav why Dara's feats in the areas of Travel & Reaction Speed are above the both of them.
Example: Supreme Bullet Timing
In one of Dara's earliest battles that happens in the early issues of The Sword. Dara has an unfortunate confrontation with the police. In the scans below you can see her incredible reaction times.
Blocks A Single Bullet From A Cop A Few Feet In Front Of HerBlocks Bullets From At Least 4 Police Officers. This is impressive because she is blocking multiple shooters who are only a few feet in from of her. Eye Witness Confirms What We See In The Scans Above So There Is No Confusion As To What The Artist & Writer Team The Luna Brothers Were Indicating.
Example 2: Incredible Travel Speed
In this particular scan Dara was having a fight with one of her enemies who has similar(in some ways better), physical stats to her own & could control water. Long story short she is forced to fight in a battle ground that favored him: The Ocean. So, she has to do this...
Dara runs so fast, she runs on water. The Sword(Issue 12)
This is a small, short, simply example of how quickly Dara can heal. In this scan she cuts her hand to prove to the police she isn't lying about her swords.
Notice it only takes a very short while for her to heal.
Another sort of weird physical advantage she has over Angel & Deadpool is her leaping ability. Throughout the debate I will explain why this leaping ability will be very useful to our team especially when paired with a clever fighter like Zealot. In this scan she...well I'll let it speak for itself.
That's right your eyes didn't fool you. Dara jumped right over a Cost Mart(AKA Fake Walmart) and crushed a car when she landed on it. The last scan which is another news style clip, again confirms the feat by the testimony of a bystander. Needless to say White Girl Can Jump!!! My Teammate & I will explain how that ability will come into use during the course of the debate.
I can't give an exact tonnage, but it's clear she has some excellent super strength and striking power for a street lever. In this scan her from one of the early issues she punches the faces off two thugs trying to kidnap her.
Dara is quite durability against cuts, stabs, and blunt force as well as other forms of durability.
This is a small taste of her durability. In this set of scans one of the bad guys picks up a car and tosses it crushing her body. Then she quickly recovers. (IIRC, this is from Issue 12 if you want to check it out)
The KRK sound is broken bones shifting and repairing themselves via healing factor.
Her sword is extremely sharp and even good enough to easily cut through 3 men at once when she was just wildly swinging it and wasn't really used to using it yet. This feat is from one of her earliest issues of The Sword.
Dara is bringing a lot more to the table, but obviously I don't want to scan bomb & I don't want to give away the whole enchilada at once. In terms of skill there really isn't a debate she is the weakest in that area as she is pretty much just a brawler using hack and slash. In terms of the psychicals though you better believe she is bringing the pain. I believe and will prove she holds a strong advantage over Angel & Deadpool in terms of striking power, speed, & her swords actual cutting power. With the incredible combo of Zealots amazing skill & experience edge, and Dara's physical power and speed, with the added benefit of our swords cutting power: Deadpool & Angel may put up a great fight. But, those boys are going down!!!!
How will this battle will go? Angel is going after Dara. Making that call already, so HA!
Angel IMO will stomp this wannabe half butt Slayer knock off :) Your characters has meh stats, abilities, and stuff, but lacks that skill. Honestly Angel is faster, stronger, and as durable. He is more importantly experienced against this type of fighter. she is no different than the Slayers he fought and beats, only she has no combat experience or centuries of skill built.
Kicks to splinters solid wood thick doors.
Even rips two doors that would take a squad of cops to bust threw with his hands. In the Second Scan he punches straight through a beefy demon.
This is a guy who kicks heads off with no problem.
And can kick a punching bag so hard it break the chain and sends the bag flying.
Able to crush thick solid steel pipes with one hand.
This guy shatters stolid stone with his hands.
This is low caliber strength feats truth be told. I am pretty sure no matter how you look at the feats, Angel will overpower Dara.
Durability
Then we have durability. Just to get a Idea here, look at the beating he took from being run over a few times, and then nailed with a Sledge Hammer.
Loading Video...
No issues there. This is basic blunt force, and Angel has even way better feats than this.
When it comes to stabbing damage, nothing short of dismemberment will slow Angel down at all.
Yeah, thats Angel walking with a sword through him and making jokes. He is a Vampire.
Speed
Then there is the speed argument. Angel while does not showcase his speed often, the Vampires of Buffy universe are extremely fast, and Angel is the fastest.
Here he side steps a bullet fired tranq after it is fired in close, then he side steps the spread of shotgun blasts in the same moment. He dodges 4 of those blasts in all at close range after they are fired at him.
Catches a crossbow to the back from Faith, well after it is fired.
Covers over 50 feet in the background in the span of a split second.
He blitzed humans faster than they can perceive him from across a room.
Then there is this nice feat of dodging multiple bullets and crossbow that were fired at him well before he took measures to easily dodge them.
I can show even more higher end feats but this will do fine now to show how outclass your gal is. I do not see her lasting long.
Skill
Finally there is the biggest blatant factor, skill. Skill skill skill. Something your character lacks. Usually I agree this can be somewhat helped if she had better stats, but as seen that's not the case. Angel has superior stats from what I seen, and can easily prove next post with his higher end feats. Then we have he fact Angel with proven skill in his series as a 300 year old Vamp that traveled the world, butchering foes of this dimension and the next. He is so good that he regularly fights and deals with foes well above his weight class in tier. He is combat proven in his battles against various Slayers, and other establish combat prone Vamps. Angel regularly shown training in various martial arts, weapon arts, and training others like Spike, Buffy, or even Cordelia.
I can prove how even after losing his powers, becoming a mere human with a busted body still competed against super beings in a grueling gauntlet thanks to his proven raw skill and tactical ability. In short, Angel is more comparable to Zealot on the super large skill gap, and that's just bad news for your girl.
Gear
This may not seem like a deal, but it is. Not only will the magical Hellfire sword match yours, and the spring loaded stakes are a nasty surprise. Add in the throwing stakes for some range with Angels fangs and claws, well there is tons of attack options to your one.
In the end, this fight will come down to most blows not effecting Angel, and Angel possibly ending he fight early due to his slightly superior stats combine with superior skill.
Conclusion
All in all I see him taking Dara down pretty hardcore as it is. With Deadpool backing him up holding off Zealot, it really makes this win over Dara, the weakest link that much more likely.
As for what happens when Zealot is the one to face Angel. I never talked about her. Well i kinda control the pacing of this fight as the first guy to go. The Last guy gets the chance to make the last counter posts and rebuttal, first guy has advantage of starting the pace out. Truthfully Deadpool is likely to go after the "hot chick" and Angel will likely settle for the "Slayer looking" chick if we really want to go there. I am confident Deadpool can hold off Zealot with his range weapons and healing factor in the time it takes Angel to finish this chick off :)
@thenewbluebeetle007: @sirfizzwhizz@lukehero Okay, since there hasn't been a post concerning Zealot since I posted last time, there still isn't much to work with, but I'll try to work with what I got.
Counterpoint: Skill
Deadpool can stomp Captain America H2H.
I feel this is a disingenuous statement, especially given the fight you referenced, for those who are unaware the fight in question takes place in Deadpool v3 #28
The very next page has Cap bringing the hurt to Wade and breaking his arm. (I'll link it, in case you want to post something else from that issue):
The page after that has Moon Knight throwing about half a dozen crescent blades into Wade's back, effectively ending the fight.
Although later Cap goes on to land a few hits, Deadpool could have easily snapped his neck if he wanted to.
Wade is strong, however I very much doubt he could break Caps neck with what amounts to a one handed choke hold (the angle and leverage is all wrong for one thing) that is of course discounting Cap's enhanced durability. Anyway the confrontation is hardly a 'stomp' it looks like a stalemate and if Spector hadn't intervened I'm sure Cap would have continued his assault (if he moved quick enough he might be able to press the advantage of Wade's broken arm). Don't get me wrong, Wade is skilled and I happen to agree that Wade wins in that fight, however it's not because of some uber skill advantage that he holds over Cap. It has much more to do with his ability to sustain more damage than Cap can dish.
However skilled Wade is, Zealot is on a different level completely, just given the comparative time she's had to hone her skills and her background would net her an advantage, however let's get some feats up to demonstrate that a bit more.
Stomps a fellow Coda:
WildCats 19
Again it should be noted that the Coda are considered the premier fighters of the Wildstorm Universe and two of their members Zealot and Nemesis are easily top 10 in fighting skills.
Blitzes a Reksha soldier (doubles as some pretty good reaction feats)
Wild Cats 10
Even if you want to discount her fighting Midnighter for the better part of several hours as a high showing (I personally think she'd give him hell but would likely lose) she has bested Backlash in a sword duel, beat Batman (despite a bit of WIS on his side) stalemated Nemesis in h2h and sword fighting numerous times...you get the point.
Counterpoint: Physicals
This is another area I believe Zealot has Wade beat let's break 'em down one by one:
Strength
Frankly, I am unsure on whether Deadpool has superhuman strength or not. I would think so based on feats, but I've seen no statements on panel indicating it.
To my knowledge he is listed as peak human levels in all of his physical stats and thus far I haven't seen anything that say Daredevil couldn't/hasn't replicated before. Moving on Zealot has been able to slam Majestic into a wall hard enough to dent it,
WildCats 36
Obviously the big guy wasn't hurt but it's a fair showing for her strength.
Broke out of Maul's grip and winded him with a kick (also easily avoids Warblade).
Wild Cats 2
You've also already seen her physically overpowering Cyblade (super human) despite not having any leverage.
Speed/Reactions
You've already seen her deflect blaster fire and a blast from Captain Atom, she does the same thing with Majestic's heat vision up close
Easily outpaces minigun fire and blitzes another Coda
Blitzes mooks before her apple hits the ground on two separate occasions, once in her Samurai days and again in modern times. Since this one is more than three scans I'll link to a gallery where the entire fight can be perused at your leisure.
Given all this I have no problem saying she is in the superhuman range and faster than Wade. I have plenty more showings though if need be. The other point I wish to bring up is Wade's teleporter, he doesn't use it in combat and he doesn't have it anymore, so I'm a bit curious why it's here (along with his satchel).
Da Fight
If Wade tries to keep Zealot at distance with his guns, it's not going to work, not only is she fast enough to dodge his shots, she can deflect his gunfire as well. Even if that wasn't the case she can take a few bullets and still fight at optimal power.
Just fyi she ends that fight by blitzing them and stuffing a grenade in one's mouth then impaling the other.
Things only get worse for Wade as the range closes, if he tries to cross blades with Zealot he's going to end up sans head fairly quickly (in character she has no problem beheading in her opening move as I've shown), when her swords slice through his like paper, to reiterate the point from my first point her blades cut down to the molecular level.
Point being given her physical, gear and skill advantages I see Zealot lopping Wade's head off in short order, picking up a win via Incap or death depending on the Deadpool being used. If at this point Dara needs help (which I'm not really convinced she will) Angel will be facing a 2v1 situation...not good for him.
Personally, as a newer Viner, I have always found it difficult to vote on team CaVs when they are not done right or are ambiguous. So I'm going to establish right off the bat how you, the voters, should vote on this CaV.
A 2v2 CaV is the same as a 2v2 battle. You should vote on which team you think would win. Even if one person outshined everyone else (me ;P), you can still vote for the other team if their counterpart did not put up an adequate argument. Although that may not happen in this one, it's just something to keep in mind.
In this scenario, I believe that it would be reasonable to say that not one, but BOTH of my opponents should have to defeat each of my team members. The reason for this is simple: thanks to highly superior healing factors, our team has far more endurance and thus, if one of our characters were to take on one of their characters after each respective teammate has gone down, then we should win because our team has more endurance and will be almost as fresh as they were at the start, while the members of their team would not be.
Obviously, we are each going to provide healing factor/endurance feats to back up this claim.
Part 2: Rebuttals
@sovereign91001: you were ruthless here, but prepare to be debunked!
I feel this is a disingenuous statement, especially given the fight you referenced, for those who are unaware the fight in question takes place inDeadpool v3 #28
Outright calling it disingenuous is bold, I'll give you that much. But it's also highly flawed.
The very next page has Cap bringing the hurt to Wade and breaking his arm. (I'll link it, in case you want to post something else from that issue):
The page after that has Moon Knight throwing about half a dozen crescent blades into Wade's back, effectively ending the fight.
I did mention that Cap later went on to land a few hits, did I not? And this was AFTER Wade hesitated and let the good Captain recover from the initial onslaught. If he was seriously trying to kill Cap, Cap would be dead.
And ON TOP OF THAT, Cap had been beating up Deadpool for 5 pages prior to the scan I posted.
We even see that after Rogers punches Deadpool a few times, Deadpool still ends up with his throat around his neck. So how exactly was this not a stomp?
Although later Cap goes on to land a few hits, Deadpool could have easily snapped his neck if he wanted to.
Wade is strong, however I very much doubt he could break Caps neck with what amounts to a one handed choke hold (the angle and leverage is all wrong for one thing) that is of course discounting Cap's enhanced durability.
Who said that Deadpool could have broken Cap's neck in that position? Deadpool let Cap regain his footing for a panel, enough time for two sentences. That is enough time to snap someone's neck.
Anyway the confrontation is hardly a 'stomp' it looks like a stalemate and if Spector hadn't intervened I'm sure Cap would have continued his assault (if he moved quick enough he might be able to press the advantage of Wade's broken arm). Don't get me wrong, Wade is skilled and I happen to agree that Wade wins in that fight, however it's not because of some uber skill advantage that he holds over Cap. It has much more to do with his ability to sustain more damage than Cap can dish.
I'm going to disagree with you there. But first, let's recap the fight.
Cap beats up Deadpool for 5 pages without any resistance (Deadpool wasn't trying to fight him back)
Deadpool gets mad starts beating up Cap, leaving him bloodied
Deadpool allows Cap a few seconds to recover
Cap gets a few hits on Wade
Wade still ends up with his hand around Cap's throat.
The fight should have been a stomp in Cap's favor, considering that Cap had had pages to KO Deadpool before Wade started fighting in earnest, and Deadpool allowed Cap to recover his ground. But Deadpool had him in a stranglehold at the end of the fight.
Not to mention, this is a holding back Wade - in the time of the story, Deadpool was trying to become a hero, and didn't go all out on Cap - hence why Steve wasn't dead after the fight.
And this isn't even Deadpool's best fight scene (it's actually a lower showing), so get ready.
However skilled Wade is, Zealot is on a different level completely, just given the comparative time she's had to hone her skills and her background would net her an advantage, however let's get some feats up to demonstrate that a bit more.
I seriously doubt this, but let's see her feats.
Stomps a fellow Coda:
Again it should be noted that the Coda are considered the premier fighters of the Wildstorm Universe and two of their members Zealot and Nemesis are easily top 10 in fighting skills.
Is this supposed to be impressive? I'd argue that Deadpool is top 3 in his universe considering his feats. Call it hyperbole, but I possess a plethora of feats to back it up.
Blitzes a Reksha soldier (doubles as some pretty good reaction feats)
I can post feats of Deadpool stomping ninja fodder all day. This isn't impressive.
Even if you want to discount her fighting Midnighter for the better part of several hours as a high showing (I personally think she'd give him hell but would likely lose)
I think it's PIS, and many on this site agree with me.
Midnighter's battle computer was fully functional during the fight. It's silly to think that Midnighter could not stomp Zealot if the battle computer was working (because of the battle computer's ability to calculate the best way to take someone out), so this showing is pure PIS.
she has bested Backlash in a sword duel, beat Batman (despite a bit of WIS on his side) stalemated Nemesis in h2h and sword fighting numerous times...you get the point.
Beating Batman isn't impressive. I'll give you Nemesis, but I still think Deadpool's feats outweigh.
Backlash had been taking a break from heroics, so he was rusty and not in prime form. Thus, the feat is of little meaning here.
Deadpool's held his own against the Black Knight and Bloodwraith, two of the top fighters in the Marvel Universe.
This is another area I believe Zealot has Wade beat let's break 'em down one by one:
I strongly disagree with you, but yes, let's break it down.
Frankly, I am unsure on whether Deadpool has superhuman strength or not. I would think so based on feats, but I've seen no statements on panel indicating it.
To my knowledge he is listed as peak human levels in all of his physical stats and thus far I haven't seen anything that say Daredevil couldn't/hasn't replicated before. Moving on Zealot has been able to slam Majestic into a wall hard enough to dent it,
Your knowledge is mistaken; I've done some research and look what I found:
Cable & Deadpool 13
Definitely superhuman. And, he has the feats to back it up. Observe:
This is when Deadpool crossed over with Spider-Man, and Deadpool swapped clothes with Peter to lure in the Chameleon. Here he uses his strength to throw a helicopter. Although it does strain him, it's still a good showing.
Obviously the big guy wasn't hurt but it's a fair showing for her strength.
No, it's not a fair showing at all, and here's why.
Pushing someone so that they dent a wall relies on the weight of the person pushed, not the durability. For example, pushing a 10-ton container of feathers would be exactly the same as smacking a 10-ton container of solid gold, because although gold is more dense, they have the same weight.
This showing is essentially her pushing a ~300 pound man, and the man's skin being so dense that he dents the very wall. The only notable thing that she did there was push a ~300 pound man.
Meanwhile, Deadpool has thrown helicopters. I'd say that's more impressive.
Broke out of Maul's grip and winded him with a kick (also easily avoids Warblade).
Well, Deadpool has hit Goliath hard enough to make him fall over. Maul and Goliath are both size shifters, so the showings are more or less equal.
You've also already seen her physically overpowering Cyblade (super human) despite not having any leverage.
Meh, I think that throwing a helicopter is just as impressive.
Now, let me go over why ZEALOT'SSTRENGTH IS MORE OR LESS INCONSEQUENTIAL in this matchup.
Deadpool has excellent durabillity. He's tanked blows from She-Hulk, Hulk, and Goliath, among others, and kept fighting without any signs of strain.
Deadpool has arguably the best healing factor at the street level in all of comics. If Zealot does manage to hurt him with her strength alone (which I doubt, considering that she is nowhere near the level of Jennifer, Hulk, or Goliath), the damage will be minimal and he will heal instantaneously.
Meanwhile, DEADPOOL'S STRENGTH GIVES HIM AN ADVANTAGE.
If Wade and Zannah decide to go hand, they are roughly equal in skill level. However, Deadpool hits hard enough to significantly harm Zealot, while the same cannot be said if you inverse the statement.
Deadpool doeshit hard enough to harm Zealot. He's hurt Goliath with his blows.
So, while I may or may not have a strength advantage, the fact is that Deadpool can laugh off Zealot's blows if he's not caught by surprise, while the same cannot be said for Zealot.
Speed/Reactions
You've already seen her deflect blaster fire and a blast from Captain Atom, she does the same thing with Majestic's heat vision up close
So? Deadpool has done the same with Cyclops's optic blasts.
Gallery
Easily outpaces minigun fire and blitzes another Coda
I've shown that Deadpool is a casual bullet timer as well.
Blitzes mooks before her apple hits the ground on two separate occasions, once in her Samurai days and again in modern times. Since this one is more than three scans I'll link to a gallery where the entire fight can be perused at your leisure.
Given all this I have no problem saying she is in the superhuman range and faster than Wade. I have plenty more showings though if need be. The other point I wish to bring up is Wade's teleporter, he doesn't use it in combat and he doesn't have it anymore, so I'm a bit curious why it's here (along with his satchel).
Deadpool is evidently in the superhuman range as well... I have more feats, too, if you're not convinced. I also showed (later in this post) that Deadpool once cut off the heads of three men faster than humans could process - that's more impressive than an apple falling to the ground, no?
Da Fight
If Wade tries to keep Zealot at distance with his guns, it's not going to work, not only is she fast enough to dodge his shots, she can deflect his gunfire as well. Even if that wasn't the case she can take a few bullets and still fight at optimal power.
I don't doubt that Zealot can dodge gunfire, but I do doubt that she can take "a few" bullets and fight at "optimal" power. You'd need some serious regeneration to be able to pull that off.
Just fyi she ends that fight by blitzing them and stuffing a grenade in one's mouth then impaling the other.
Am I supposed to be impressed? Deadpool can and has blitz fodder and fight creatively too.
Things only get worse for Wade as the range closes, if he tries to cross blades with Zealot he's going to end up sans head fairly quickly (in character she has no problem beheading in her opening move as I've shown), when her swords slice through his like paper, to reiterate the point from my first point her blades cut down to the molecular level.
Deadpool is immensely skilled with a sword, as I will show in the battle section. He's also fought against foes under similar circumstances and emerged victorious.
Part 3: Strategy / Feats
Hand-to-Hand
First, Deadpool will go at Zealot. From what I've seen, if Deadpool were to go Hand to Hand, in-character Zannah would do so as well. But if not, then Deadpool will see Zealot brandishing her swords, and he'll match her iron with his.
First, let's show exactly how good Deadpool is in H2H combat.
Here, Wade effortlessly beats up Taskmaster. What's even better is that every time except their first encounter (where Tony copied Deadpool's moves), Deadpool has won. Taskmaster is a VERY good combatant, too.
nd to back up my claim that Deadpool is a street level teambuster:
Gallery
Here, DP takes on a portion of the Avengers, including She-Hulk, Goliath, Killmonger and Wasp - and gives them trouble. It also highlights Wade's durability, as he tanked blows from She-Hulk and Goliath and just kept going.
And lastly, just in case you want some feats of him fighting someone as skilled as Zealot, semi-serious Wade fought Iron Fist in Civil War.
Although the fight is inconclusive, observe that Deadpool could have easily slapped a grenade onto Iron Fist's back if he wanted to - he only didn't because his goal was to apprehend him, not defeat.
And the best part is that I still haven't shown Wade's best feats yet. He's solo'd teams of elite street level characters in the past, and I will bring up even more instances to further solidify my point.
So, if we go H2H, Deapdool is going to win, considering that he's serious. When unserious or semi-serious, he's beaten some of the best fighters in the Marvel Universe, and held his own against mid-tier teams with his durability and martial arts.
When serious, he's taken down teams of the most elite street level characters in comics. I'll get to his "serious" feats in the next post, depending on if you show fights of Zealot that compare to Wade's.
Swordsmanship
Now, Zealot has a powerful weapon, no doubt about that. The Kusar Blade probably could cut through Deadpool's own Katanas.
But Deadpool has fought opponents with powerful blades in the past; most notably, he took on Citizen V in Cable and Deadpool #29. This is relevant because Citizen V's sword was made out of adamantium, capable of cutting Deadpool's own swords.
Gallery
Here, Deadpool is only semi-serious, but he fights, disarms, and defeats Citizen V in two hits. Citizen V is no slouch in combat, either; he's been called a master swordsman and expert combatant in the past.
So what I'm trying to get at here is essentially that Deadpool has fought opponents with similar weapons, and defeated them.
Now, I'd also like to bring up some swordsmanship feats.
Gallery
Deadpool: The Gauntlet
In Deadpool: The Gauntlet, semi-serious Deadpool clashes with Blade, someone who is very good with his swords (hence the name). Although he later gets gutted, this was only because he got distracted by a Frenchman calling for help.
Even Taskmaster, one of the premier sword-fighters in Marvel, is impressed with Deadpool's skills.
In fact, Deadpool defeated Tony in a swords duel.
Deadpool later goes on to actually defeat Taskmaster, by collapsing the house and kicking up dirt for some cover, then punching his lights out.
Now, there are a lot of things going on here, so let's just recap the fight.
Deadpool has his hands and legs cuffed together. He's literally hopping around like a bunny rabbit.
Taskmaster attacks him.
Deadpool holds his own, and though he gets stabbed, he instantly recovers and proceeds to beat up Tasky with a stick.
So, a Deadpool who had his hands and legs tied together defeated Tony Masters (one of the top 5 swordsmen in Marvel) with a sword.
And when he's serious (which he is in this fight) Deadpool is insanely fast in combat. For example, here he cuts up some dudes so fast that their hostages didn't even process that it happened.
Gallery
I'll need to see some speed feats on this level of speed and skill if you're going to claim that Zealot can defeat Deadpool. Since Deadpool is serious here, this is the level of speed that he'll be fighting at.
Miscellaneous
Now, I'd like to call attention to the simple fact that Zealot has never faced someone like Deadpool. Taking on someone whose fighting style is completely unorthodox, who spouts gibberish when fighting, and who is on the same level as her in every aspect is going to catch her by surprise.
Meanwhile, Deadpool has fought opponents like Zealot all the time. He fought Black Knight and Bloodwraith, arguably two of the top five swordsmen in Marvel (a fight that is crucial to this debate, and one that I'll start referencing once feats of Zealot against non-fodder are shown). He's faced Taskmaster multiple times. He's faced beings with super-strength (Hulk), beings with super-speed (Whizzer), beings that can take a whole lot of pain (Wolverine), and combinations of all three (Moonstone and Dreadpool). Zealot is nothing new to him, and that is a distinct advantage.
Part B of Battle Plan: Boom Boom
Let's look at the battlefield.
Now, you may think that this is an arena that puts no one at an advantage, making it an even fight. However, it's actually in favor of Deadpool and Angel.
You see all of those cars there? A great many of them are strewn on the road randomly. I believe that this indicates that they were still running when the people evacuated // were killed // whatever.
What this means is that there is still gas in the gas tank. And guess who has the right tools to use that fuel?
Deadpool.
You see, Wade possesses grenades. Grenades go boom. When things go boom, the gas tanks inside the cars go boom as well. And if he feels that he needs to, he's going to bring the fight to one of the cars, and use the grenade. He has used this tactic many times before, most notably against Carnage in Deadpool vs. Carnage 1 (or it might have been 2). He's not going to get KO'd from this either, because of his healing factor, while Zealot probably would get knocked out from an explosion of that size.
Deadpool loves to use the environment to his advantage, too. For example,
he used an electric pipe to take out a team of Wolverine, Spider-Man, Iron Fist and some others in Deadpool vs. Hawkeye #1.
In the fight against Taskmaster where his hands and legs were tied, he used the jungle for cover and toppled a house on Tony, forcing him to evade.
Against the Hulk in Deadpool Volume 2 (somewhere in the 1-10 issue range), he used a very sharp pipe to hurt the Hulk.
And before you say that I chose this battlefield to unfairly skew the battle in my favor, I chose a football stadium at first; Luke was the one who asked for this battlefield.
I can already anticipate your counter. You're going to bring up this instance, and say that she can absorb the energy. But if you'll notice, the blade only absorbs energy directed at it. Grenades, and explosions? They're omnidirectional and have a fairly large AOE So, you see, there is almost no chance that you'll get out of there unscathed, much less in fighting condition. They also release shrapnel, and I seriously doubt that Zealot will simultaneously deflect all the shrapnel flying at her while absorbing all the fire and energy that will come out of the explosion.
Summary
I believe I have presented a valid case for Deadpool defeating Zealot in both armed and unarmed combat. Unarmed, he's taken on the best fighters in Marvel, such as Wolverine, Iron Fist, and Taskmaster. In particular, the Iron Fist example is compelling because Deadpool was shown to be able to latch a grenade onto Iron Fist.
Armed, he's faced opponents similar to Zealot before, and has come out on top. His speed feats, such as killing three men faster than the human eye can process, trump those of Zannah's, meaning that he could very well kill Zealot first. Meanwhile, he defeated Taskmaster, who some call the best sword fighter in the Marvel Universe, when his hands and legs were tied.
Regarding the Kusar Blades, I find it unlikely that a serious Deadpool would be hit by them considering that he's evaded bullets and Cyclops' eye blasts, both of which are just as fast, if not faster, than Zealot. But even if he were to be hit, he could very easily heal.
Lastly, Deadpool possesses three key advantages in this fight. Firstly, his healing factor (which allowed him to heal from his whole upper body being impaled by an elephant tusk, in a few panels) gives him more endurance than Zealot. Second, the battlefield advantage is his; he can throw grenades at cars, making them explode, while using the aforementioned healing factor to stay conscious. His last advantage lies in durability, he's tanked hits from people such as She-Hulk, Hulk, and Goliath, so it will be immensely hard to put him down.
After defeating Zealot, Deadpool will go help Angel out with Dara, though I am thoroughly convinced that he will not require assistance.
How will this battle will go? Angel is going after Dara. Making that call already, so HA!
Angel IMO will stomp this wannabe half butt Slayer knock off :) Your characters has meh stats, abilities, and stuff, but lacks that skill. Honestly Angel is faster, stronger, and as durable. He is more importantly experienced against this type of fighter. she is no different than the Slayers he fought and beats, only she has no combat experience or centuries of skill built.
Speed:
Angel is slower in Travel & Reaction Speed. None of the speed feats you have shown or have for Angel will match the things she is doing TBH. So far nothing you have shown is even close to reaction timing it takes to blocking bullets from multiple shooters.
You've shown:
Bullet dodging (pretty standard mid level street level fair)
Catching an Arrow(slow poke stuff, that even Arrow characters can do and they do it against better marksmen).
Covers over 50 feet in the background in the span of a split second:
That is a nice piece of Travel Speed, but it honestly pales in comparison to me showing Dara running so fast she was running on water.(Seriously voters which one look better, running on water or running a few feet in split sec).
He blitzed humans faster than they can perceive him from across a room.:
Then there is this nice feat of dodging multiple bullets and crossbow that were fired at him well before he took measures to easily dodge them.
Same thing here to be honest for bullet dodging and blitzing humans. That scan you showed shows him blitzing some humans, but it still isn't up to par in the amount of speed to takes to run on water or block bullets. To bullet dodge you just need to get the hell out of the way. To block bullets from multiple shooters you are actually accounting for each bullet fired and blocking each one.
I can show even more higher end feats but this will do fine now to show how outclass your gal is. I do not see her lasting long.
Show me him blocking bullets from machine guns that are a few feet in front of him & maybe I'll consider Angels speed a factor:
Notice in the scan there at least 4 officers firing machine guns at her from different angles and she not only blocks all of their bullets she skillfully deflects them right back at them.
Strength & Striking Power:
This is another area you've sorely underestimated Dara on strength. Also I noticed you left out some context from 1 of your scans/gifs, we'll get to that later though. Let's check out Dara's feats and striking power.
Example:
This is Dara when she is injured no less, putting her hand right through the head of a human being.
Example 2:
This is Dara casually pushing a thug, which throws him into the side of a van and knocks the van over.
she is no different than the Slayers:
Really? Now, show me Slayers doing the same feats especially when it comes to speed. Show me the Top Slayers Buffy & Faith blocking bullets, running on water, and punching through peoples heads. I am glad however you brought up the Slayer argument and that Angel would come after Dara. I agree a chick with a Sword and some awesome stats would remind Angel of a Slayer. But, this line of thinking could backfire on you. If he thinks she may be a Slayer would he go for the kill "In Character" or would he hold back?
Strength Feat Problem:
This is a guy who kicks heads off with no problem.
The Problem with you using that gif from Season 2 Episode 2: The Thin Dead Line is that cop he kicks the head off of is a Zombie. When someone dies and sits in a grave and rots: even by comicbook logic their body becomes ooey & gooegy. They loose muscle mass, and bone density and their Zombie bodies become all brittle and weaker. That's why normal humans in Zombie movies and TV shows can do things like Daryl of the Walking Dead overpowering 8 walkers and for nobody in their right mind leaves thinking Daryl has super strength. Sometimes we get characters smashing a Zombies head completely with one stomp and no one applies super strength logic to those feats: because they are ooey & gooey, weak & brittle Zombie bodies. If you honestly look at gif even Angel was shocked he kicked off a guys head. I highly doubt he was seriously trying to kill a police officer in a random encounter at that point in season 2. He was shocked because normally when he kicks a human he doesn't send body parts flying. If you want to counter this argument it's very simple: Show me Angel kicking off the head of a non Zombie.
Strength Feat Thoughts:
Kicking down wooden doors, crushing a hollow metal pipe(With Water Running Through It?), and the other feats from Angel are impressive, but not when compared to what Dara can do. I honestly haven't even shown her best stuff. The only thing that really impressed me is Angel sticking his hand through the beefy demon, but I've shown you Dara sticking her hand through someone's head.
As bad*** & skilled as Angel is she honestly would just punt Angel like a Football on first blow:
Sends a thug flying through the air like a NFL Football
Angel may send people flying a few feet in the comics and TV show, but Dara sent this guy flying through the air like a kickball.
Durability:
Yeah, thats Angel walking with a sword through him and making jokes. He is a Vampire.
Cool, but since you are willing to dig into feats from the show let's establish on average for Angel. We can't just cherry pick the high showing after all. He has been stabbed a lot through the comics & TV Show. What we are not getting from this scan here is the honest fact that for the most part stabbing does hurt Angel.
Stabbed 1:
In Angel Season 1 Episode 11: "Somnambulist", Detective Kate stabs Angel through the guts in order to kill a vampire that Angel sired and stab him in the heart. Notice that after being stabbed it clearly hurts Angel and he is winded and needs time to recover. He just stands there for a few moments, but then after she removes the piece of wood he falls to the ground from exhaustion. This clearly shows standard stabbing moves can hurt Angel and I will show more that will help establish his average.
Bobbing his head, up and down after the stab. It clearly hurt him.Falls out onto the floor after Kate removes the piece of wood.
Stabbed 2:
Angel Season 4 Episode 7 "Apocalypse Nowish" Angel & The Team are fighting the Beast, Angel gets out muscled and stabbed in the neck with his own wooden stake. He starts coughing up blood, changes from Vamp Face to Human Face(powering down), and the Beast has time to start trash talking him and tosses him off the roof. From one neck stab with a piece of wood Angel was pretty much immobilized. Again being stabbed clearly hurts Angel and we are now establishing a pattern that walking around calmly with a sword sticking through him is a high feat, not an Average.
Sure looks like it hurts to me.Netflix close up, clearly coughing up blood from a neck stab.
Demon Powered Lindsey stabs Angel with a sword in the heart and he goes down for quite a while and it takes him a good amount of time to recover. Lindsey even has time to stand around Angel and jobber for good bit before Angel finally is able to get back up and start fighting again.
What we see from these 3 clear examples is that more often than not, stabbing Angel hurts him just fine and unlike Dara's healing which is near instantaneously, it takes Angel a good while to heal up from major wounds. This is not an Angel lowball, this is Angel's clear average. Besides the point I've already shown Dara cutting through 3 human bodies in one swing, so the idea of cutting Angel in half isn't a problem at all.
Angel VS Lindsey:
This fight you are referring to from Season 2 Episode 16: "Epiphany" is honestly not a good thing for Angel. I'm honestly shocked you brought that up. You're apparently seeing this fight between Angel & Lindsey as a good thing and that's really surprising. I don't know if you thought about what these feats would really mean for Angel though.
1. It means Angel isn't fast enough to dodge an old pick up truck. Lindsey may get a head start on driving his old timey pick up truck towards Angel due to the fact Angel was about to fight a group of demons, but Angel clearly hears the car & turns his head around and sees the truck. Meaning Angel had plenty of time to react and get out of the way, but he doesn't.
Lindsey's Truck
Also looking at the body style of Lindsey's truck he looks like he's driving an old Ford F1 series from the 1950's. I'm far from a car expert, but I don't imagine those old trucks to have all that much of in terms of impressive horsepower & speed. So the fact that he can't dodge an old truck isn't really a good thing for Angel.
2. Angel's recovering time from Blunt Force is apparently terrible. Not only does Angel get tagged three or four times by an old Ford Pickup, he then gets tagged several times by Lindsey(a one handed human lawyer) swinging a sledgehammer. After Angel gets ran over the first couple of times Angel is still clearly injured and hobbles along and is chased down by the old Ford Pickup and hit yet again.
Now what does this mean in terms of Angel's recovery time? Well it means that unlike Dara's healing factor which I showed in 2 forms above, Angel's healing factor doesn't heal him instantly. If we go back to the two examples I posted, you see in both instances Dara's healing factor heals here right up in 3 panels.
Notice it only takes her three panels to heal up. Compare that with Angel's recovery time when he gets cut or stabbed.Again she heals up with in 3 panels and gets back in time to mount a counter attack.
At the end of the Lindsey Vs Angel fight when Lindsey stops wailing on Angel, and starts goes to his truck for his wooden stake Angel finally gets up. Even when Angel finally manages to launch a counter strike his face is still clearly battered and bruised. Meaning Angel's healing factor is quite slow in comparison to Dara who is healing with in 3 panels and in very short order.
Honestly when you continue to think about it Lindsey(a one handed lawyer) using an old timey pickup truck and a sledge hammer, had Angel on the ropes and that's not very remarkable or good for a standard street lever when it comes combat feats or Angel's combat efficiency. Overall it doesn't really say anything outwardly positive about Angel and so it's strange you would bring that particular fight up.
Sword Striking Power:
Last, but now least I want to show a bit of Dara's swords striking power: In the scan below, Dara easily slices through a metal pole. I wonder if Angel's sword can do something similar?
Angel's Sword:
Question, I noticed you said he used the Sword heavily in After The Fall? But, is he using it in the current run of Angel comics, which is what "Angel & Faith"? I'm asking because if there answer is no(which I'll be researching myself), then it wouldn't honestly be something considered standard gear.
Conclusion:
Usually I agree this can be somewhat helped if she had better stats
I agree good thing she has better stats, healing, and durability as I will continue to prove throughout the debate. :D Also once again if Angel mistakes Dara for some kind of Slayer in character Angel wouldn't go for a kill, he even took mercy on the crazy Slayer in Season 5.
What You Need To Prove:
Show Angel's travel speed fast enough to run on top of water or something similar.
Show Angel's reaction time fast enough to deflect multiple machine gun bullets.
Show Angel's striking power/strength strong enough to launch people in the air, and knock over a van or something similar.
Show Angel's healing factor healing him up in three panels or less.
Show Angel's physicals being good enough to allow him to jump over a Walmart sized building like Dara did above.
Show Angel knocking off someone's head that's not a zombie.
Show Angel's sword being standard and not used in a single comic run which in the Angel/Buffyverse basically count as a single season.
Show Angel's sword easily cutting through metal.
In my next post I'll show some more strength feats for Dara and show examples of Angel struggling vs characters with superior stats despite those characters only being mere brawlers similar to Dara. From what I have seen so far Dara has a quite the advantage on Angel in physicals, speed, strength/strikes, durability, and healing. Not only that, but she has the advantage of Angel perhaps mistaking her for a Slayer and being willing to hold back, which would play to our team's advantage is a major way. I see Dara defeating Angel or my partner defeating Deadpool and we double team the other. Either way we win.
@thenewbluebeetle007: Honestly Sov is handling the Deadpool stuff as I take on Angel. TBH your teams initial strategy of this:
Sirfizzwhizz Post:
Truthfully Deadpool is likely to go after the "hot chick" and Angel will likely settle for the "Slayer looking" chick if we really want to go there.
It all really does play in our teams favor as I explained above and I will continue to explain throughout the debate. Only problem I see is like we talked about in the PM Deadpool doesn't have his teleporter, or magic shacel anymore from what I see in his most current run. If you could edit that out of your intro as not to confuse voters that would be great. I know you haven't used either as of yet, but all the same it would be greatly appreciated by our team.
@thenewbluebeetle007: Oh. I'm pretty sure Sirfizzwhizz is working on this post. He stays pretty busy though he's got he's own set of tourneys and several other CAVS. I don't know how he does it. It's pretty impressive.
Oh man... so much wrong to correct Luke, and lots of "low showings" you busting out. Most of it from Season 1 and 2 where Angel was far inferior to season 3-6 or the comics. Seriously man..... lets try to correct this problem.
Speed:
Angel is slower in Travel & Reaction Speed. None of the speed feats you have shown or have for Angel will match the things she is doing TBH. So far nothing you have shown is even close to reaction timing it takes to blocking bullets from multiple shooters.
You've shown:
Bullet dodging (pretty standard mid level street level fair)
Catching an Arrow(slow poke stuff, that even Arrow characters can do and they do it against better marksmen).
That is a nice piece of Travel Speed, but it honestly pales in comparison to me showing Dara running so fast she was running on water.(Seriously voters which one look better, running on water or running a few feet in split sec).
Same thing here to be honest for bullet dodging and blitzing humans. That scan you showed shows him blitzing some humans, but it still isn't up to par in the amount of speed to takes to run on water or block bullets. To bullet dodge you just need to get the hell out of the way. To block bullets from multiple shooters you are actually accounting for each bullet fired and blocking each one.
Oh really. Cause thats so far a lie. I showed Angel reacting to gun fire and arrows well after being fired at him. But if thats not enough....
I showed this already but again here it is as proof. Here is Angel blitzing from across the room in a split second as a blur. Your character shown NO speed on that level.
Here is another that blows away anything your character shown for speed. Angel and Spike move so fast that they navigate through tons of people faster than the eye can follow to close in over 30 feet.
Here is a typical average Vampire in speed. A blur to humans. Then here is Angel Speed to a average Vampire running away at full sprint. Who is faster here? Angel, by alot.
Your character simply has no feats on this level in speed.... period.
Show me him blocking bullets from machine guns that are a few feet in front of him & maybe I'll consider Angels speed a factor:
Notice in the scan there at least 4 officers firing machine guns at her from different angles and she not only blocks all of their bullets she skillfully deflects them right back at them.
Oh wow, look at that, she is blocking bullets from canon fodder. Neat. Yeah she has the reaction time, but still nothing in over all speed. Angel can think, attack, and react at simply faster speeds. You proven nothing otherwise other than she has the same reaction feats of say Task Master or Deadpool. I should not have to show bullet deflecting, angel has no need to as he tanks bullets since they cannot harm him, and Angel has better speed feats still. He can so far run circles around your girl in reaction, travel, and blitzing speeds.
Strength & Striking Power:
This is another area you've sorely underestimated Dara on strength. Also I noticed you left out some context from 1 of your scans/gifs, we'll get to that later though. Let's check out Dara's feats and striking power.
Example:
This is Dara when she is injured no less, putting her hand right through the head of a human being.
Example 2:
This is Dara casually pushing a thug, which throws him into the side of a van and knocks the van over.
Really? Now, show me Slayers doing the same feats especially when it comes to speed. Show me the Top Slayers Buffy & Faith blocking bullets, running on water, and punching through peoples heads. I am glad however you brought up the Slayer argument and that Angel would come after Dara. I agree a chick with a Sword and some awesome stats would remind Angel of a Slayer. But, this line of thinking could backfire on you. If he thinks she may be a Slayer would he go for the kill "In Character" or would he hold back?
Really? Thats easy.
Those super fast Vampire I showed already? Buffy blitzes them by the dozens as after images.
So fast that this demon cannot have a chance to attack under the blitz.
Buffy kicking another 1000s of feet through a building, and then the tables. Buffy punching through the much tougher durability of giant insect daemons.
Yeah, Buffy pretty much matches all you shown alone. Only difference is Buffy has knowledge how to kill Angel and way higher skills than your girl.
As for in character, Angel might think Darla is a Slayer, or Demon, or a Angel, there is TONS of beings with these stats that fight with swords that Angel face. In character he will have no issue killing this broad trying to kill him.
Strength Feat Problem:
The Problem with you using that gif from Season 2 Episode 2: The Thin Dead Line is that cop he kicks the head off of is a Zombie. When someone dies and sits in a grave and rots: even by comicbook logic their body becomes ooey & gooegy. They loose muscle mass, and bone density and their Zombie bodies become all brittle and weaker. That's why normal humans in Zombie movies and TV shows can do things like Daryl of the Walking Dead overpowering 8 walkers and for nobody in their right mind leaves thinking Daryl has super strength. Sometimes we get characters smashing a Zombies head completely with one stomp and no one applies super strength logic to those feats: because they are ooey & gooey, weak & brittle Zombie bodies. If you honestly look at gif even Angel was shocked he kicked off a guys head. I highly doubt he was seriously trying to kill a police officer in a random encounter at that point in season 2. He was shocked because normally when he kicks a human he doesn't send body parts flying. If you want to counter this argument it's very simple: Show me Angel kicking off the head of a non Zombie.
Oh my, more low ball attempts. Or you simply never saw the episode, one or the other. In the episode "The Thin Dead Line" dead cops were brought back as perfectly fine living humans again.
That Cop is one of the "rotten carcass" Zombies you claim. their not Rotten, their flesh, skin, and body is restored to living. They only revert back to undead carcass after being killed from head trauma. Then the body is shown to degenerate into the corpse again! That is why Angel fought what he thought was a living cop, and only after kicking its helthy head off, did it revert, and Angel realize what was happening in that part of the city.
So again, another out of context low ball attempt. Not appreciated.
Strength Feat Thoughts:
Kicking down wooden doors, crushing a hollow metal pipe(With Water Running Through It?), and the other feats from Angel are impressive, but not when compared to what Dara can do. I honestly haven't even shown her best stuff. The only thing that really impressed me is Angel sticking his hand through the beefy demon, but I've shown you Dara sticking her hand through someone's head.
Yes there was running water though it, the Submarine was sinking and flooding. I showed above Buffy doing the same to a more durable armored Insect demon. Hell here is Angel punching through a solid buffed up demon just fine.
As bad*** & skilled as Angel is she honestly would just punt Angel like a Football on first blow:
Angel may send people flying a few feet in the comics and TV show, but Dara sent this guy flying through the air like a kickball.
Yeah and Angel will overpower your girl in a sword duel. Darla has great "kicks" but what benching feats she has? how much can she lift or push? That is what matters here.
Shatters Solid stone in his hand.
Punches easily through six inches of Plexiglass, stuff that cops used for riot control, and shatter resistance against people with weapons. Angel punches through 6 inches of it.
Angel lifts a super heavy motored powered security gate design to keep a super famous gem stolen.
Rips off a iron gate to escape Vampire hunters in the 1800s.
Slams three Vampires into the concrete wall to shatter it.
Gallery
Here Angel has five Vampire holding him down, and he still flings them all off in one push. Sending them flying.
Sp does Angel need to send people flying with kicks? No. You want Angel to have shown exact feats your showing, but the feats i do show are not only more than comparable they are better. Nothing you shown is really superior. In a sword duel were applying pressure on the swords and striking with the swords matter, Angel has the superior feats. He can still punch holes through Darla as well.
Durability:
Cool, but since you are willing to dig into feats from the show let's establish on average for Angel. We can't just cherry pick the high showing after all. He has been stabbed a lot through the comics & TV Show. What we are not getting from this scan here is the honest fact that for the most part stabbing does hurt Angel.
What you call the average, I call low showings, but whatever, we will let voters decide. Yes, it hurts him, and depending on where he is stab hurts more. Neck, and heart areas are the areas that follow killing a vampire. Makes sense they hurt Angel. The Durability argument is will Angel keep fighting? Yes. Will the injuries slow him down? No. As I will show.
Angel shot up with Bullets in both Scans all across the bodie, and never slows down.
Angel entire neck area is bitten by this human eating demon, and it does not cause Angel to pause in the fight.
Here is Angel tanking the blast of a Fragmentation Grenade. hundreds of little shrapnel blwon into Angels body, blowing Angel through the Elevator door, and down a floor. He then is shown next scene running to the alley away from those trying to catch him with no real damage, and cracks a unintended joke.
Yes Angel and Spike tank a Dynamite explosion in the face, destroying the room around them, but they are in one piece and cracking jokes.
So yes, you not using averages, your using out of context reasoning to say Angel will go down to a any normal slash or attack. Most of the stabs you showed is stabs in areas that do indeed hurt or can kill him, but Angel still fights on time and again more so than curl up to die like your making it out to be. The Average is alot higher than the lows your showing truth be told.
Stabbed 1:
In Angel Season 1 Episode 11: "Somnambulist", Detective Kate stabs Angel through the guts in order to kill a vampire that Angel sired and stab him in the heart. Notice that after being stabbed it clearly hurts Angel and he is winded and needs time to recover. He just stands there for a few moments, but then after she removes the piece of wood he falls to the ground from exhaustion. This clearly shows standard stabbing moves can hurt Angel and I will show more that will help establish his average.
Stabbed 2:
Angel Season 4 Episode 7 "Apocalypse Nowish" Angel & The Team are fighting the Beast, Angel gets out muscled and stabbed in the neck with his own wooden stake. He starts coughing up blood, changes from Vamp Face to Human Face(powering down), and the Beast has time to start trash talking him and tosses him off the roof. From one neck stab with a piece of wood Angel was pretty much immobilized. Again being stabbed clearly hurts Angel and we are now establishing a pattern that walking around calmly with a sword sticking through him is a high feat, not an Average.
Funny both examples are wooden weapons used to attack the rare spots that are used to kill a Vampire. Whats your point? Your argument would need to be Darla stabbing Angel in the heart are or nearly cutting off his head, or brain. Add to this this will not kill him unless your cut his heart out or head off. As I shown already, Angel tanks these attack just fine.
Demon Powered Lindsey stabs Angel with a sword in the heart and he goes down for quite a while and it takes him a good amount of time to recover. Lindsey even has time to stand around Angel and jobber for good bit before Angel finally is able to get back up and start fighting again.
What we see from these 3 clear examples is that more often than not, stabbing Angel hurts him just fine and unlike Dara's healing which is near instantaneously, it takes Angel a good while to heal up from major wounds. This is not an Angel lowball, this is Angel's clear average. Besides the point I've already shown Dara cutting through 3 human bodies in one swing, so the idea of cutting Angel in half isn't a problem at all.
This is a low ball, because your implying any stab will drop Angel. Angel was stabbed in the heart, one of the ways to kill a Vampire. Removing the heart or wood through it. Yes this cause Angel pain, and yet, did he slow down after getting back up in a dozen seconds? Nope, he was back on his A Game and decimated Lindsy, who was also amped by many magic sigils at the time I might add.
Angel VS Lindsey:
This fight you are referring to from Season 2 Episode 16: "Epiphany" is honestly not a good thing for Angel. I'm honestly shocked you brought that up. You're apparently seeing this fight between Angel & Lindsey as a good thing and that's really surprising. I don't know if you thought about what these feats would really mean for Angel though.
1. It means Angel isn't fast enough to dodge an old pick up truck. Lindsey may get a head start on driving his old timey pick up truck towards Angel due to the fact Angel was about to fight a group of demons, but Angel clearly hears the car & turns his head around and sees the truck. Meaning Angel had plenty of time to react and get out of the way, but he doesn't.
Also looking at the body style of Lindsey's truck he looks like he's driving an old Ford F1 series from the 1950's. I'm far from a car expert, but I don't imagine those old trucks to have all that much of in terms of impressive horsepower & speed. So the fact that he can't dodge an old truck isn't really a good thing for Angel.
Yeah, and Wolverine who dodges multiple bullets and moves faster than human thought be hit by cars as well. Your point? I thats right, your ignoring what Angel can do, in favor of 90s TV show plot points. Got it.
2. Angel's recovering time from Blunt Force is apparently terrible. Not only does Angel get tagged three or four times by an old Ford Pickup, he then gets tagged several times by Lindsey(a one handed human lawyer) swinging a sledgehammer. After Angel gets ran over the first couple of times Angel is still clearly injured and hobbles along and is chased down by the old Ford Pickup and hit yet again.
Oh my, your low balling is infuriating. Angel clearly was shaken by being RAN OVER twice by a Ford. Yet in my video above what happens? Oh right, he let Lindsy say what he wanted, and then popped up perfectly fine to beat the guy down. Thats what happen, I love how you ignore that crucial part.
As for lowballing his blunt durability....
Here a clone of Spike picks up a large metal dumpster and smacks Angel with it, does Angel go down, he gets right back in the fight.
Angel hit by a amped clone of Wesely in the same night, and as seen Angel smashes through large metal wreckage, and craters a concrete wall. gets right back up and fights.
Angel falls from a skyscraper, and into the concrete below, gets right back up.
Does it again!
yeah his Durability showings are laughable.....
Now what does this mean in terms of Angel's recovery time? Well it means that unlike Dara's healing factor which I showed in 2 forms above, Angel's healing factor doesn't heal him instantly. If we go back to the two examples I posted, you see in both instances Dara's healing factor heals here right up in 3 panels.
NON of these feats is any faster than what Angel showed. He gets hurt, and then bounces right back. He has a undead body. he cannot be bleed to death, and only die if his head is cut off, sunlight, or wood in the heart. Thats it. Even cutting his heart out is not a kill, it makes Angel immortal with instant regen for a full day lol.
At the end of the Lindsey Vs Angel fight when Lindsey stops wailing on Angel, and starts goes to his truck for his wooden stake Angel finally gets up. Even when Angel finally manages to launch a counter strike his face is still clearly battered and bruised. Meaning Angel's healing factor is quite slow in comparison to Dara who is healing with in 3 panels and in very short order.
Honestly when you continue to think about it Lindsey(a one handed lawyer) using an old timey pickup truck and a sledge hammer, had Angel on the ropes and that's not very remarkable or good for a standard street lever when it comes combat feats or Angel's combat efficiency. Overall it doesn't really say anything outwardly positive about Angel and so it's strange you would bring that particular fight up.
i love how your using comic panels as a time frame, when Angel healing and shaking of blows is superior in his own comic panels. Thats ironic. The point is Angel has a healing factor, and more important a undead body that cannot die as easy as your living girl. Your girl needs to breath, can bleed out, heart stabbed, brain damage, ect.
Sword Striking Power:
Last, but now least I want to show a bit of Dara's swords striking power: In the scan below, Dara easily slices through a metal pole. I wonder if Angel's sword can do something similar?
Yeah. Cuts through a half jet half dragon.
Angel's Sword:
Question, I noticed you said he used the Sword heavily in After The Fall? But, is he using it in the current run of Angel comics, which is what "Angel & Faith"? I'm asking because if there answer is no(which I'll be researching myself), then it wouldn't honestly be something considered standard gear.
First off, I dont read Angel and Faith, so its pointless to bring it up. I am using Angel as I know him, Season Six. In Season Six and After the Fall he is the president of Wolfram and Hart. As president he had access to the weapons, magic, ect in the vault. He chose the Hell Fire Sword as his weapon.
Gallery
Its a weapon he used alot in After the Fall, and its a weapon he had access and stock of since Season Six. So your saying its not standard when he used it multiple times? I stated this is the gear I am giving him, and it is gear he used many times in the comics, and had access to in the show. So I am using it.
Conclusion:
I agree good thing she has better stats, healing, and durability as I will continue to prove throughout the debate. :D Also once again if Angel mistakes Dara for some kind of Slayer in character Angel wouldn't go for a kill, he even took mercy on the crazy Slayer in Season 5.
I think your character is worse by stats, and still majorly outclass in skill. Nowhere in your whole post you showed skill level other than fighting fodder nobodies. Not even powerful beings or gods like Angel has.
What You Need To Prove:
Show Angel's travel speed fast enough to run on top of water or something similar.
This is bad logic period. Angel speed feats do not have to be the same, only match, and in fact they are superior. Vamp from Metal Gear runs on water, he is not faster than human eyes can follow, which Angel is. Running on water is not that fast. Very fast, but not anywhere in the bullet or even arrow speed.
Show Angel's reaction time fast enough to deflect multiple machine gun bullets.
I showed better, since thats all your girl can do, Angel can move and blitz faster than people can see, and through a full night club no less.
Show Angel's striking power/strength strong enough to launch people in the air, and knock over a van or something similar.
I showed better. I showed non striking and striking feats.
Show Angel's healing factor healing him up in three panels or less.
I shown that as well. I showed him taking insane damage with no time to rest.
Show Angel's physicals being good enough to allow him to jump over a Walmart sized building like Dara did above.
Jumping is not a feat of stats. Toad from X-Men does the same, he is not super fast or strong, c'mon man.
Show Angel knocking off someone's head that's not a zombie.
Your own Zombie was out of context, and I showed Angel punching through a super buff demon's chest anyway.
Show Angel's sword being standard and not used in a single comic run which in the Angel/Buffyverse basically count as a single season.
He has full access to it Season 6, and used it through Season 7. I label it as his gear as well. Deal with it.
Show Angel's sword easily cutting through metal.
It cut through a whole half dragon half fighter jet.
In my next post I'll show some more strength feats for Dara and show examples of Angel struggling vs characters with superior stats despite those characters only being mere brawlers similar to Dara.
As the underline shows, more low balling attempts. You cannot match feats, so your resort to trying to find low showings that are not the average. Nice. I am sure 100% you can find Angel being tagged by slower people, but that be ignoring his multiple high ends and focusing on the rare plot ones. I like to assume this is not Angel jobbing for plot but fighting at his best. Unlike you since you know in that scenario your girl is out class. Honestly this is like busting out Wolverine lower end feats, and try to convince people it is the norm. Its not a good tact tic here, and frowned on.
now to add one thing you have not covered.... SKILL!
Skill
Yeah it important, and you yet touch on this. Why? Oh thats right, your girl has none. Your whole argument is banking on superior stats, which she does not have, and have not acknowledge the skill factor. Angel is a multi century being who has practice martial arts, and has tons of fighting experience. He has matched Buffy more than once, taken down Faith twice, and taken down Spike who killed a few Slayers himself. Angel is really top tier for his world.
Good examples of this is the Mohara Demon. Champions for the Powers that Be like Angel and Spike.
This guy is no joke.
Loading Video...
In the first fight by himself, Angel wrecks this demon. Yet when Buffy fights it in the second battle, she could not beat it without a human Angel's help. Thats a great showing. However, if that is not enough of feats of skill I can show more. How about when Angel was force to fight Hell as a Human?
Where Angel casually throws a stake and kills the charging Demon Lord to be. As a mere human.
Gallery
Angel spending 3 months in Hell, rescuing humans where he can against demon forces with no powers.
Gallery
Angel takes out demons, and even as a human he rescues Conner who has all those Vampire Stats.
Gallery
Here Angel fights against Vampires, and then easily bested the Vampire Gunn. http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Charles_Gunn
Just to show how good he is. Able to fight 3-5 Vampires at a time as a human. Human Angel fought a Charles turn Vampire with all the stats and no morals. Angel wins.
All this is Angel with No Vampire stats at all. Completely human, yet he fooled everyone he fought with his skill alone into thinking he was still a Vampire! All this is easily contributed to his 300+ years existence of fighting Vampire Hunters, Demons, Gods, and other Vampires. What feats does your girl sport to match this skill?
Log in to comment