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#51 Posted by hart7668 (2294 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@nighthunder:

Thanks dude, the compliments mean a lot and i'll definitely tag you as soon as it's done.

@darkbiscuit

No problem, i'll tag both of you and whoever else asks to be tagged as soon as the debate ends.

Tag me as well please!

#52 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@sebast_allen:

After you finish reading this post, please don't reply until I make my next post because that post will be concerning my true calculations, feats, etc for Goku and I don't want to get that post clogged up with a reply so I want it to be separate.

So when you're done reading this, DON'T reply until after I make my next post ( I'll remind you of this at the end of this post too, thanks).

That's not the point, the point was to show you that from near point blank, thor could deflect a ftl blast from surfer, and we all know mjolnir can absorb most/any things thor wants it to, bput those together, and you have got thor deflecting or absorbing a Kamehameha (lol that this word is in the dictionary),

Not at all, that's pure speculation. Sure Thor was able to deflect an FTL blast at near-point blank, but it was an FTL blast that was postioned right within his sights (and therefore easily predictable). He was expecting the blast and there was no evidence of any power put behind it, and not nearly as big or as powerful as a Kamehameha (i'll get into the true power of Kamehameha when i'm finished replying to your points).

Goku would charge up the Kamehameha, and then Thor would immediately think that Goku is just going to fire it straight at him which would make Thor think he would easily absorb it. Wrong, Goku would IT behind Thor and then blast him head on. Thor isn't reacting to an Instant Transmission Kamehameha under any circumstances.

The only way Instant Transmission is predictable is if Goku uses it to dance around the opponent, and therefore predicting the next spot Goku will end up. Even if that were the case, Thor doesn't have that kind of speed prediction.

and you also forget, that thor has his own attacks which can overpower a Kamehameha (lorn bolts etc). Thor can also just spin his hammer to block the Kamehameha, there is a scan of him blocking the destroyers total disintegration beam with mjolnir (and though he was odin force thor, that didn't amp mjolnir)

I'm not forgetting that Thor has his own certainly powerful attacks, but they lack the speed to even scrape Goku's skin (i'll also go into detail on Goku's top combat speed when i've finished replying to your points.

Thor has taken far worse that what goku can dish out, and while a fully charged Kamehameha will greatly injure thor, he has consistently shown that he is highly resistant to most forms of energy attacks

Yes, goku's instant transmission coupled with a full charged Kamehameha will be devastating to thor, but no, it will not take him out, he has taken far worse attacks (though they are rare)

A Full-Power Kamehameha would KO Thor at the absolute minimum, that of which like I said i'll show you the extent of a Max-Power Kamehameha when I finish replying to your points.

Basically point blank

Supernova

A Kamehameha contains a lot more power behind it than a Super-Nova. Not to mention, that Super-Nova was close to Thor but it wasn't point-blank and it certainly didn't hit Thor head on, it exploded and Thor was in it's presence. Goku will be hitting Thor head on, not creating an explosion.

But to be able to destroy every brick that was falling towards him from a building, i'm no scientist, but that requires reactions around that speed

That's just speculation, and it wasn't much of a feat of reaction speed as he was already focused on Gladiator with the building before he threw it. It was more of an "Aim-Deflecting" feat. Even in that scan it didn't show Thor destroying every brick, it merely showed him swatting away all of them with one swipe.

The blast was his size, and further down it says that thought can get faster than light, in which case we get deja vu because our brain can't comprehend the speed we just thought at

The blast wasn't his size, it was perfectly fitted for Mjolnir to block. It may have appeared Thor's size as the force of the deflection made it burst out energy from the attack.

Deja Vu is irrelevant, even if the speed of thought is FTL that's still negligible when compared to Goku's Combat Speed.

True, just pointing out that thor can tag a speedster, he just needs to increase the speed his hammer goes.

It didn't really point that Thor can tag a moving speedster at all, as Loki wasn't even moving to begin with.

It forces him to the ground, and then all of the debris start crushing him with that amount of force, now that is alot of force crushing thor, and yet he was able to resist the gravimetric pull of a neutron star

Yes but resisting the force of a Gravitational Pull is much different to resisting the force of an Incoming Energy Blast (at FTL Speeds).

They were trying to crush him, which they failed to do, that is what i wanted to show

Thor still couldn't break out the constriction, it doesn't matter if they couldn't crush him as he couldn't break out of the amount of force they were putting on him either.

It's not like he knows thor can absorb him, so if he goes for a head on Kamehameha which he does 99% of the time when he uses the technique, if thor starts absorbing the attack he can also absorb goku's enegy because it is flowing directly from goku

It's not like Thor knows he can drain Goku either. Since when does Goku go for a head on Kamehameha 99% of the time? He never did as far as I can recall.

Just letting you know that thor can do it if he needs to

That's assuming he gets even one second of spare time to do that.

Those creature were the body of surtur, the demon who > odin, those demons were not weak, they might look it, but they weren't, they are the white blood cells of surter's being.

That's the Circular Reasoning fallacy. You're assuming that just because the creatures came from a being such as Surtur, that they're automatically powerful from the start, without actually showing what they're capable of.

And at this point he was only warning the world, and like he said, if they tried anything, he would make things worse.

I see, although impressive it's not like Goku would have trouble dodging lightning (even thousands of bolts).

Seeing as how thor was the only avenger able to percieve hermes moving at incredible speeds on two occasions, as well as other gods, i think he would be able to see goku.

No, it doesn't work like that. You're merely assuming that since Thor has been able to perceive beings that move at great speeds, then that means he can see Goku. Not at all, you need to prove that Thor can see beings of Goku's caliber (before you reply to this point, you should consider the calculations i'm going to do after this).

Kami might have good eyesight, but he doesnt have the showings to prove it, otherwise i could say vegeta has better eyes than kami, freiza has better eyes than kami and thor has better eyes than kami because they have all seen faster things than Kami and have been able to react to them.

Kami is Earth's God, he is able to perceive FTL movements. He flicked away an enraged Kid Goku effortlessly as he was able to react to FTL Speed before Goku could reach him:

Frieza, & Vegeta do have better eyes than Kami. I still haven't seen Thor perceive light-speed movement that isn't coming from directly in front of him.

Yeah, he is, but thor can handle him, i will adress that below.

No he cannot, and i'll address why like i've said as soon as i'm done replying here.

Very impressive, though thor would be able to detect goku better than piccolo, if he was able to get a hit on goku like that he would follow up like he always does, he would not give goku a second to recover.

I still haven't seen anything to truly back up this claim.

Going through thor's attacks would only happen like one time, because theor has used mjolnir to hit intangible foes before, goku would not see it coming and would try and phase through again, only to get full powered mjolnir strike to the skull, and i'm not sure goku could take one of those, especially if it's amped further by thor's lightning etc.

to vision

Ehh.. Goku would see anything and everything that Thor would attempt, there's nothing he wouldn't see coming. Thor isn't hitting Goku, not even once.

There's a difference between phasing and intangibility. Phasing is reaching a certain speed that you'll literally pass through the object, Intangibility is being untouchable without any speed put into it.

While very nice, if goku attempted that he would be in serious trouble, firstly thor has nothing that could be taken that would hinder him at all (he isnt afraid to fight naked), and secondly, goku would probably go for mjolnir and when he finds that he can't lift it will waste valuable minutes trying to budge it (goku is the type of guy who wouldnt give up on trying to lift it) in which thor could let it suck goku dry, thor could attack goku with his biggest scariest attacks, or make mjolnir hit goku full force in the face or bfr goku to the sun or so many bad things

I wasn't using that to try and show that Goku would take Mjolnir (he wouldn't try that while blood-lusted either, he'd just whale on Thor), I was just showing how fast he was to the point that Tien couldn't even detect any fraction of movement or being touched.

While i agree thor would go berserk, he wouldnt fight like nappa, after noticing how quick goku is on his feet, thor would rely on his skill in battle to make up for it, coupled with the fact that he has versatility while fighting (he can amp his shots, create weather patterns to slow down or hinder goku while fighting) he would do much better than nappa and would get those valuable shots in

That's the thing, Thor wouldn't be able to even notice how fast Goku is. He won't be able to detect the speed that Goku would be moving at.

Another thing, if thor used his AOE attacks most of them could one shot goku, the winds of 1000 worlds would tear goku to shreds if it even hit him with a glancing blow etc.

But it's not hitting him, so Goku doesn't have to worry about getting hit.

While goku is very fast in travel speed, thor is faster, he is arguably the fastest travel speedster in comics save flashes, and cosmic entities, thor has flown so fast that suns flicker past as he flies.

I know, I was just pointing out that Goku is no slouch in Travel Speed.

While i agree, if thor uses one of his uber attacks, if it connects with goku it's game over, like if thor does a godblast and goku a Kamehameha, when the godblast connects with goku then it's over, goku will die, and we all know how people in dbz don;t dodge attacks when they clash and lose

That's IF it connects, but it won't. Goku would have the Kamehameha charged up, and then IT behind Thor to blast him full on which would KO him at the bare minimum. He wouldn't go for an energy blast battle considering how powerful he would detect the God-Blast to be.

Very nice stuff, too bad thor trumps them

holocast bomb

look how close they are, don't beleive

inside a building when it exploded

Considering that Thor looked like he was panicking to escape the bomb, and the fact that the bomb didn't even manage to destroy buildings, only cause damage. It doesn't look too impressive to me. Thor has much better durability feats.

While goku is a combat genius, nobody in dbz really uses specific fighting styles save dragonball series, nowadays they fight more based on raw instincts in fights, thor's fighting tyle would not be copied because it it one honed in thousands of deadly battles, and the fact that he uses a weapon, which goku rarely does, and goku can't learn any moves from thor because the ones they use rely on ki whereas thor's are magical based

I wasn't getting at Goku copying Thor's fighting style, I was trying to point out that Goku is a genius combatant and won't pull off anything stupid that would get him killed.

Alright, now like I said i'll go into detail on Goku's Combat Speed, Power Output, etc. I need some time before I can make that post though, so don't reply until I do as i'd just be caught up in replying to your post again.

DON'T REPLY, @sebast_allen. Thanks.

#54 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@sebast_allen:

I have my post done, here we go:

Durability:

Frieza has casually kicked back Planet-Busters:

Nearing the end of Goku & Frieza's fight, Frieza sent a Destructo Disk towards Goku except it backfired and instead cut Frieza in half:

After that, Frieza had virtually nothing left to fight. His Ki was drained, and had nothing left to fight. Goku gave him a small portion of his energy, which lead Frieza to send an Energy Beam towards Goku.

Goku retaliated, and fired his own beam which defeated Frieza's, and destroyed virtually everything. However, Frieza still survived the blast and took no further noticeable damage:

Therefore, Frieza could withstand a Planet-Buster in the following conditions:

  • Virtually Ki-Drained.
  • Cut in Half.
  • Battle-Worn.

That's very impressive if you ask me, moving on.

Frieza was then rebuilt, and set out to take revenge. Before you say that "Frieza was weaker than he was on Namek, due to the aftermath of the battle with Goku". Here, he flat out states that he has become stronger:

There's also a second feat of power in that scan, they stated how effortlessly it would be to destroy the Earth. Doing so with a single blast. This wouldn't be hyperbole either, as Frieza did vaporize Planet Vegeta in his 1st Form:

But then as Frieza landed on the Earth, he was greeted by Future Trunks, who effortlessly sliced him in half:

Before you say that it was the Sword's power, not Trunks'. King Cold took the sword and tried the same to Trunks, and it really didn't work out too well:

Therefore, Trunks was able to slice through a being with Planetary Level+ Durability. In order to do that, Trunks would have had to have Planet-Busting+ Striking Power.

And when Trunks fought Goku, he couldn't even cut his finger whilst going all out:

Later in the Cell Saga, Cell states that he possesses at least a small amount of Frieza's Cells:

Cell produces his own children, the Cell Jrs. They possess everything Cell does, as they are his children. The Cell Jrs were incredibly powerful and proceeded to humiliate the Z Fighters:

Reluctantly, Gohan turned SSJ2 and proceeded to one-shot all of the Cell Jrs:

Then later on in SSJ2 Goku VS SSJ2 Majin Vegeta Battle (Buu Saga), Vegeta states that Goku was more powerful than Gohan was when he fought Cell. After Goku witnessed Vegeta powering up, he stated that they were both evenly matched in power:

Vegeta also stated that he was going to kill Goku, meaning there was no holding back on his part:

Throughout the fight, both Goku & Vegeta dish out, receive, and even catch attacks that have Planet-Busting Force:

And to add to that, Goku was holding back throughout that fight.

From this Goku has withstood Planetary-Level attacks with his finger, and spent a whole battle withstanding and dishing out those attacks to an evidently higher extent, whilst holding back.

Going by all of that, Goku is easily put on the Multi-Planetary Level+ Durability.

Combat Speed:

I'll get into Goku's top Combat Speed in a little while, but first I want to show you the rest of his feats in the aspect:

Speed-Blitzes Nappa:

After training under X100 times Gravity, Goku could catch his throw:

Goku and Tien were both fighting invisibly:

He was following Tien's movements, even though he couldn't see him (holding back):

Nappa went to hit Goku, and Goku zoomed by Nappa's punch so fast that he appeared behind Nappa and walked away. It looked like Nappa wasn't even trying to hit Goku in the first place:

Heck, even Goku's punches are invisible:

As for Energy Blasts, the Kamehameha is usually depicted as slow for charging up. This is untrue, here Goku cancelled out Nappa's Energy Blast at Point-Blank range:

Goku even dodged Piccolo's Eye-Lasers at Point-Blank, whilst his hands were bound with Piccolo's:

There's enough feats for Goku's Combat Speed for that, now it's time to move onto Goku's top Combat Speed. That means, i'm going to calculate it using the multipliers, transformations, etc. Let's begin:

Alright, first out of all of those feats i've provided, they're very impressive. However none of them exactly prove anything, they certainly imply a lot and so on, but implications don't adequate proof, do they?

But what isn't an implication, is this feat:

What exactly is going on here, is that Tien used the Solar-Flare attack in an attempt to blind Goku. However, before Tien even knew it Goku had already avoided it, ran over to Master Roshi, took his glasses to put them on, and then ran all the way back. All of his movements were far too fast for anyone to sense, or see.

The Solar Flare itself is a Light-Speed attack, as it is light. Light moves at Light-Speed, obviously. Therefore, Goku was FTL as merely a child.

Before you say something along the lines of "Goku could have took off before Tien used the attack", no that isn't the case. Goku was in Tien's sights before the attack was used, had Goku have took off before Tien used it, Tien would have realized and went after him. That wasn't the case, Goku was indeed faster than the attack.

Now, i'm going to use this feat and calculate Goku's top speed as best, and as accurate I can:

Kid Goku's Base Speed was FTL. This was before any major training, or power multipliers. As he advances through his training, he drinks the Sacred Water provided by Korin. This Water multiplied his Base Power by 10, as the Water unlocked the power of his Oozaru Transformation, and transferred it into his Base Power.

Then, we need to account for his Super Saiyan 1-3 Forms, and then finally the Death Battle Gravity Forumla which is X586. Now, I shall begin to calculate:

  • Base Speed - FTL
  • Sacred Water X10 Increase - X10 FTL
  • SSJ X50 - X500 FTL
  • SSJ2 - X1000 FTL
  • SSJ3 X4000 FTL
  • Gravity Formula - X2,344,000 FTL

There you have it, Goku's top Combat Speed is over X2,344,000 (2.3 Million) times the Speed of Light. If there's any reason for these calculations to be wrong, please provide evidence of your claim.

Reaction Speed:

I've shown you that Kid Goku's Base Power is Faster than the Speed of Light, which would mean that he moves at 160,000 Miles per Second (MPS, for short). Now, we just need to account for his power increases and what not, in order to get his Reaction Speed:

Here are the sources which i'll be using to calculate:

  • Base Speed (FTL) - 160,000 MPS = Millisecond(s)++
  • Sacred Water Increase (X10 FTL) - 1,600,000 MPS = Microseconds(s)
  • SSJ X50 (X500 FTL) - 80,000,000 MPS = Microseond(s)+
  • SSJ2 X2 (X1000 FTL) - 160,000,000 MPS = Still Microsecond(s)+
  • SSJ3 X4 (X4000 FTL) - 640,000,000 MPS = Still Microsecond(s)++
  • Gravity Multiplier (X2,344,000 FTL) - 375,040,000,000 (375 Billion) MPS = Nanosecond(s)++

Therefore I have Goku at X2.3 Million FTL, and with Massively Nanosecond+ Reaction Speed.

Like I said, if you think there's something wrong with the calculations then please provide evidence of that. Otherwise, it's very clear that Thor isn't landing one hit on Goku.

Destructive/Power Output:

Now, this is where things get a little hefty.

Alright, so we know that Goku can effortlessly destroy planets at this rate. It's considerable to bring to an argument against Thor, but then again it seemingly isn't enough. Let me take it up a notch.

With one of the most famous feats used in DBZ Debates, here we see Cell's claim about being able to destroy the entire Solar System, as he had enough Chi to do so:

Now, most people claim this "claim" to he Hyper-Bole. It is understandable as to why it could be Hyper-Bole, but it simply isn't Hyper-Bole. Cell's Kamehameha, could have in fact destroyed the Solar System.

Gohan turning SSJ2 and repelling the Kamehameha wouldn't have happened, unless Cell was strong enough to trigger the SSJ2 within Gohan. As we all know, the Super Saiyan Transformation is activated by a need for something. If Cell was bluffing, and let's say he could only destroy a planet, then the transformation would not have happened. Planet-Busting has been easily surpassed in the Cell Saga, therefore for another transformation to occur there would have had to be a threat much bigger and a lot more dangerous than blowing up the Earth.

That is of course, Cell's capability of destroying the Solar System. Cell had to have been able to destroy the Solar System in order for a SSJ2 Transformation to occur.

More reasons to follow:

  • Akira Toriyama wrote him that way, and wouldn't make him lie. Why would he make Cell lie?
  • Cell is an Android, and is a highly intelligent Super-Computer. He would know exactly what he is capable of, and therefore wouldn't make up such a claim if it weren't true.
  • All of the Z Fighters present in that battle were not denying Cell's power. The Z Fighters are masters at reading Ki, and how strong someone is. Nobody had denied Cell's potential, if he was truly bluffing someone would have obviously said something.
  • This is kind of the same reason as above, but considering that Gohan could feel the Ki of Cell and therefore know that he was truly able to destroy the Solar System, the SSJ2 transformation happened.

In fact, here is an entire article dedicated to prove that Cell would have destroyed the Solar System if it weren't for Gohan:

http://www.screwattack.com/news/cell-solar-system-buster-0

In summary, Cell is a Solar System Buster.

Now you're probably thinking, why are you talking about Cell? You're debating for Goku, right? Correct, I am. My point is that Goku, is a lot more powerful than Cell.

Cell is an SSJ2 tier Character, and SSJ3 Goku is over X4 times stronger than SSJ2. That means, that SSJ3 Goku surpasses Cell in every physical way possible.

Therefore, SSJ3 Goku has enough power to destroy the Solar System four times over. That is over X4 Super-Novas into one Kamehameha. And that's only Goku's minimum capabilities, in reality I could easily calculate that Goku is much more powerful than that, but i'll stick with this to save us an argument.

Striking/Punching Power:

I've shown that Goku was able to dish out attacks with Planet-Busting+ force, but i'd like to take it up a notch once again. After all, i'll have to take it up a notch in order to prove that Goku can cause severe damage to Thor.

Here, we see Goku in SSJ3. He punches a hole clean through King Kai's Planet, and that Planet has Gravity which is X10 times the Gravity on Earth:

In case you'd prefer to see it in video, be my guest:

That was from Battle of the Gods, which is canon if you were wondering.

Goku pierced through a planet that is X10 times more durable, and X10 times more dense than that of Earth with a single punch. The exact extent of the power behind this punch, I will be showing now.

Just to make things clear, I will be using another source to provide the information, it is much easier and less time consuming to do this. I know it sounds lazy, but that doesn't change anything about the feat (obviously).

Nonetheless, here we go (i'll spoiler block this, as it contains a lot of info):

The first calculation is figuring out the Mass of the planet using gravity and radius since those are the two things we know. Then the next step is the Volume, using the radius. And the third and last, is Density, using the Mass and Volume we calculated.

Mass Formula:

Rearanged gravity formula to calculate mass instead (had to do short hand got formula from wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_gravity

  • G = m/r^2
  • M = r^2 x g

Volume Formula:

V = (4/3) × pi × r^3

Density Formula:

P = M/V

List of Calculators Used:

Calculations:

  • G = m/r^2
  • M = r^2 x g
  • M = 0.0000156961230576^2 x 10
  • M = 0.0000000024636827904 Earth Masses
  • Earth's Mass = 5.97219 × 10^24 Kilograms
  • 5.97219 × 10^24 X 0.0000000024636827904 = 14,713,581,723,998,976
  • M = 14,713,581,723,998,976 kg

This considers King Kai's Planet as 100M radius & X10 times Earth's Gravity.

The small number is the size of King Kai's Planet Radius in relation to Earths:

  • Volume of a Sphere is V = (4/3) × pi × r^3
  • V = (4/3) × pi × 100m^3 = 4188790.2047863905m^3

This is using King Kai's Planet as 100M radius.

Knowing the Mass and Volume, we can get the Density:

  • P = M/V
  • P = 14713581723998976kg / 4188790.2047863905m^3
  • P = 3.512608892.9415128417291527 X 10^9 kg/m^3

Density of a White Dwarf Star: "The average density of matter in a White Dwarf must therefore be, very roughly, 1,000,000 times greater than the average density of the Sun, or approximately 10^6 g/cm3." Which translates to 10^9 kg/m^3. So in other words it is over 3.5 times as dense as a White Dwarf Star.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_dwarf

The Dimensions of the Planet don't matter, only the Density, since we are talking about a Punch, not a Ki Blast.

King Kai's planet is no more than 30 Meters in Diameter (Pixels-Scaling), but even if it is 40, 50 or 90 Meters, the order of Magnitude (physically talking), is still the same (i.e. 10).

Now, Gravitational Force of a planet is given by this Formula:

F = (G*M*m)/r^2

G is the Universal Gravitational Constant (6,67*10^-11 [m^3/(kg*s^2)];

M is the Mass of the Planet (M is the Generic Reference of Mass)

R is the Radius of the Planet (or Distance between the two Mass's Centers)

Since King Kai's Gravitational Force is X10 times the Earth's Gravitational Force, we have Fk (Gravitational Force of King Kai's Planet) X10 times bigger than Fe (Earth's Gavity):

Fk/Fe = [(G*Mk*m)/rk^2]/[(G*Me*m)/re^2] = 10

G and M are in commons and go away, so we have:

(Mk/rk^2)/(Me/re^2) = 10

Mass is Volume (V)*Density (D), with Volume (of a Generical Planet) = (4/3)*π*r^3;

Back to the Formula:

((4/3)*π*rk^3*Dk)/rk^2 = Fk and ((4/3)*π*re^3*De)/re^2 = Fe, so:

Fk/Fe = (Dk*rk)/(De*re) = 10.

The only unknown term is Dk (density of King Kai's planet), while we know De and Re of Earth and Rk = 15 meters (assuming a diameter of King Kai's planet of 30 m, as previously said).

So, Dk = 1,17*10^10 kg/m^3, while density of Earth (De) is 5,5153*10^3 kg/m^3, so the Density of King Kai's planet is around X2 Million times higher than the Density of Earth, and Goku Punched a whole hole throughout this material.

Even if King Kai's planet had the same Gravitational Force as Earth, the fact it has such a small Diameter would still imply a huge Density, and indeed it would still have a Density around 200,000 times larger than the Density of the Earth.

Indeed, what really matters when talking about Physical Punches is the Density, and AT, giving us a planet of a few meters of Diameter and with a Gravitational Force X10 times greater than the one on Earth, is indisputably giving us that previously said enormous level of Density.

Imaging taking a Cube of 1 Meter of each side of the following materials:

  • Average Sun Composition: It would weigh around 1.4 Tons.
  • Average Earth Composition: It would weigh around 5.5 Tons.
  • Core of the Sun Material: It would weigh 150 Tons.
  • King Kai's Planet Material: It would weigh around 10 Million Tons.
  • Neutron Star Material: It would weigh around 280,000 Billion(s) Tons.

Punching the Core of the Sun would obviously require inhumane Striking Power, regardless of how much Matter (in KG) you punch away. Even worse would be just trying to physically scratch the surface of a Neutron Star.

A not even Blood-Lusted SSJ3 Goku actually vaporizes (with one punch) a whole quantity of a material (which according to canon info about King Kai's planet) that has thousands of times the Density of the Sun's Core.

Thus punching through Earth material for Goku would be a joke for him ( it would be like punching thin air for us), and the Earth would collapse on itself.

Final Stats:

Attribute:Extent:
Durability (Minimally) - Multi-Planetary Level+
Combat SpeedX2,344,000 (Over X2.3 Million) times FTL
Reaction SpeedNano-Second(s)++
Destructive/Power Output(Minimally) Enough to destroy the Solar System X4 Times Over.
Striking/Punching PowerHits (Minimally) with enough force to destroy the Earth with one-blow.

From all of this, Goku is fast enough to avoid every one of Thor's attacks, has the Striking Power to cause a lot of damage to Thor and the Destructive Output to KO him at the very minimum, although Goku would likely kill him.

Your move.

#55 Posted by LimpoyzLoan (1630 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, how I've missed these

#56 Edited by Sebast_Allen (1381 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@sebast_allen:

I have my post done, here we go:

Durability:

Frieza has casually kicked back Planet-Busters:

Nearing the end of Goku & Frieza's fight, Frieza sent a Destructo Disk towards Goku except it backfired and instead cut Frieza in half:

After that, Frieza had virtually nothing left to fight. His Ki was drained, and had nothing left to fight. Goku gave him a small portion of his energy, which lead Frieza to send an Energy Beam towards Goku.

Goku retaliated, and fired his own beam which defeated Frieza's, and destroyed virtually everything. However, Frieza still survived the blast and took no further noticeable damage:

Therefore, Frieza could withstand a Planet-Buster in the following conditions:

  • Virtually Ki-Drained.
  • Cut in Half.
  • Battle-Worn.

That's very impressive if you ask me, moving on.

Frieza was then rebuilt, and set out to take revenge. Before you say that "Frieza was weaker than he was on Namek, due to the aftermath of the battle with Goku". Here, he flat out states that he has become stronger:

There's also a second feat of power in that scan, they stated how effortlessly it would be to destroy the Earth. Doing so with a single blast. This wouldn't be hyperbole either, as Frieza did vaporize Planet Vegeta in his 1st Form:

But then as Frieza landed on the Earth, he was greeted by Future Trunks, who effortlessly sliced him in half:

Before you say that it was the Sword's power, not Trunks'. King Cold took the sword and tried the same to Trunks, and it really didn't work out too well:

Therefore, Trunks was able to slice through a being with Planetary Level+ Durability. In order to do that, Trunks would have had to have Planet-Busting+ Striking Power.

And when Trunks fought Goku, he couldn't even cut his finger whilst going all out:

Later in the Cell Saga, Cell states that he possesses at least a small amount of Frieza's Cells:

Cell produces his own children, the Cell Jrs. They possess everything Cell does, as they are his children. The Cell Jrs were incredibly powerful and proceeded to humiliate the Z Fighters:

Reluctantly, Gohan turned SSJ2 and proceeded to one-shot all of the Cell Jrs:

Then later on in SSJ2 Goku VS SSJ2 Majin Vegeta Battle (Buu Saga), Vegeta states that Goku was more powerful than Gohan was when he fought Cell. After Goku witnessed Vegeta powering up, he stated that they were both evenly matched in power:

Vegeta also stated that he was going to kill Goku, meaning there was no holding back on his part:

Throughout the fight, both Goku & Vegeta dish out, receive, and even catch attacks that have Planet-Busting Force:

And to add to that, Goku was holding back throughout that fight.

From this Goku has withstood Planetary-Level attacks with his finger, and spent a whole battle withstanding and dishing out those attacks to an evidently higher extent, whilst holding back.

Going by all of that, Goku is easily put on the Multi-Planetary Level+ Durability.

Combat Speed:

I'll get into Goku's top Combat Speed in a little while, but first I want to show you the rest of his feats in the aspect:

Speed-Blitzes Nappa:

After training under X100 times Gravity, Goku could catch his throw:

Goku and Tien were both fighting invisibly:

He was following Tien's movements, even though he couldn't see him (holding back):

Nappa went to hit Goku, and Goku zoomed by Nappa's punch so fast that he appeared behind Nappa and walked away. It looked like Nappa wasn't even trying to hit Goku in the first place:

Heck, even Goku's punches are invisible:

As for Energy Blasts, the Kamehameha is usually depicted as slow for charging up. This is untrue, here Goku cancelled out Nappa's Energy Blast at Point-Blank range:

Goku even dodged Piccolo's Eye-Lasers at Point-Blank, whilst his hands were bound with Piccolo's:

There's enough feats for Goku's Combat Speed for that, now it's time to move onto Goku's top Combat Speed. That means, i'm going to calculate it using the multipliers, transformations, etc. Let's begin:

Alright, first out of all of those feats i've provided, they're very impressive. However none of them exactly prove anything, they certainly imply a lot and so on, but implications don't adequate proof, do they?

But what isn't an implication, is this feat:

What exactly is going on here, is that Tien used the Solar-Flare attack in an attempt to blind Goku. However, before Tien even knew it Goku had already avoided it, ran over to Master Roshi, took his glasses to put them on, and then ran all the way back. All of his movements were far too fast for anyone to sense, or see.

The Solar Flare itself is a Light-Speed attack, as it is light. Light moves at Light-Speed, obviously. Therefore, Goku was FTL as merely a child.

Before you say something along the lines of "Goku could have took off before Tien used the attack", no that isn't the case. Goku was in Tien's sights before the attack was used, had Goku have took off before Tien used it, Tien would have realized and went after him. That wasn't the case, Goku was indeed faster than the attack.

Now, i'm going to use this feat and calculate Goku's top speed as best, and as accurate I can:

Kid Goku's Base Speed was FTL. This was before any major training, or power multipliers. As he advances through his training, he drinks the Sacred Water provided by Korin. This Water multiplied his Base Power by 10, as the Water unlocked the power of his Oozaru Transformation, and transferred it into his Base Power.

Then, we need to account for his Super Saiyan 1-3 Forms, and then finally the Death Battle Gravity Forumla which is X586. Now, I shall begin to calculate:

  • Base Speed - FTL
  • Sacred Water X10 Increase - X10 FTL
  • SSJ X50 - X500 FTL
  • SSJ2 - X1000 FTL
  • SSJ3 X4000 FTL
  • Gravity Formula - X2,344,000 FTL

There you have it, Goku's top Combat Speed is over X2,344,000 (2.3 Million) times the Speed of Light. If there's any reason for these calculations to be wrong, please provide evidence of your claim.

Reaction Speed:

I've shown you that Kid Goku's Base Power is Faster than the Speed of Light, which would mean that he moves at 160,000 Miles per Second (MPS, for short). Now, we just need to account for his power increases and what not, in order to get his Reaction Speed:

Here are the sources which i'll be using to calculate:

  • Base Speed (FTL) - 160,000 MPS = Millisecond(s)++
  • Sacred Water Increase (X10 FTL) - 1,600,000 MPS = Microseconds(s)
  • SSJ X50 (X500 FTL) - 80,000,000 MPS = Microseond(s)+
  • SSJ2 X2 (X1000 FTL) - 160,000,000 MPS = Still Microsecond(s)+
  • SSJ3 X4 (X4000 FTL) - 640,000,000 MPS = Still Microsecond(s)++
  • Gravity Multiplier (X2,344,000 FTL) - 375,040,000,000 (375 Billion) MPS = Nanosecond(s)++

Therefore I have Goku at X2.3 Million FTL, and with Massively Nanosecond+ Reaction Speed.

Like I said, if you think there's something wrong with the calculations then please provide evidence of that. Otherwise, it's very clear that Thor isn't landing one hit on Goku.

Destructive/Power Output:

Now, this is where things get a little hefty.

Alright, so we know that Goku can effortlessly destroy planets at this rate. It's considerable to bring to an argument against Thor, but then again it seemingly isn't enough. Let me take it up a notch.

With one of the most famous feats used in DBZ Debates, here we see Cell's claim about being able to destroy the entire Solar System, as he had enough Chi to do so:

Now, most people claim this "claim" to he Hyper-Bole. It is understandable as to why it could be Hyper-Bole, but it simply isn't Hyper-Bole. Cell's Kamehameha, could have in fact destroyed the Solar System.

Gohan turning SSJ2 and repelling the Kamehameha wouldn't have happened, unless Cell was strong enough to trigger the SSJ2 within Gohan. As we all know, the Super Saiyan Transformation is activated by a need for something. If Cell was bluffing, and let's say he could only destroy a planet, then the transformation would not have happened. Planet-Busting has been easily surpassed in the Cell Saga, therefore for another transformation to occur there would have had to be a threat much bigger and a lot more dangerous than blowing up the Earth.

That is of course, Cell's capability of destroying the Solar System. Cell had to have been able to destroy the Solar System in order for a SSJ2 Transformation to occur.

More reasons to follow:

  • Akira Toriyama wrote him that way, and wouldn't make him lie. Why would he make Cell lie?
  • Cell is an Android, and is a highly intelligent Super-Computer. He would know exactly what he is capable of, and therefore wouldn't make up such a claim if it weren't true.
  • All of the Z Fighters present in that battle were not denying Cell's power. The Z Fighters are masters at reading Ki, and how strong someone is. Nobody had denied Cell's potential, if he was truly bluffing someone would have obviously said something.
  • This is kind of the same reason as above, but considering that Gohan could feel the Ki of Cell and therefore know that he was truly able to destroy the Solar System, the SSJ2 transformation happened.

In fact, here is an entire article dedicated to prove that Cell would have destroyed the Solar System if it weren't for Gohan:

http://www.screwattack.com/news/cell-solar-system-buster-0

In summary, Cell is a Solar System Buster.

Now you're probably thinking, why are you talking about Cell? You're debating for Goku, right? Correct, I am. My point is that Goku, is a lot more powerful than Cell.

Cell is an SSJ2 tier Character, and SSJ3 Goku is over X4 times stronger than SSJ2. That means, that SSJ3 Goku surpasses Cell in every physical way possible.

Therefore, SSJ3 Goku has enough power to destroy the Solar System four times over. That is over X4 Super-Novas into one Kamehameha. And that's only Goku's minimum capabilities, in reality I could easily calculate that Goku is much more powerful than that, but i'll stick with this to save us an argument.

Striking/Punching Power:

I've shown that Goku was able to dish out attacks with Planet-Busting+ force, but i'd like to take it up a notch once again. After all, i'll have to take it up a notch in order to prove that Goku can cause severe damage to Thor.

Here, we see Goku in SSJ3. He punches a hole clean through King Kai's Planet, and that Planet has Gravity which is X10 times the Gravity on Earth:

In case you'd prefer to see it in video, be my guest:

That was from Battle of the Gods, which is canon if you were wondering.

Goku pierced through a planet that is X10 times more durable, and X10 times more dense than that of Earth with a single punch. The exact extent of the power behind this punch, I will be showing now.

Just to make things clear, I will be using another source to provide the information, it is much easier and less time consuming to do this. I know it sounds lazy, but that doesn't change anything about the feat (obviously).

Nonetheless, here we go (i'll spoiler block this, as it contains a lot of info):

The first calculation is figuring out the Mass of the planet using gravity and radius since those are the two things we know. Then the next step is the Volume, using the radius. And the third and last, is Density, using the Mass and Volume we calculated.

Mass Formula:

Rearanged gravity formula to calculate mass instead (had to do short hand got formula from wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_gravity

  • G = m/r^2
  • M = r^2 x g

Volume Formula:

V = (4/3) × pi × r^3

Density Formula:

P = M/V

List of Calculators Used:

Calculations:

  • G = m/r^2
  • M = r^2 x g
  • M = 0.0000156961230576^2 x 10
  • M = 0.0000000024636827904 Earth Masses
  • Earth's Mass = 5.97219 × 10^24 Kilograms
  • 5.97219 × 10^24 X 0.0000000024636827904 = 14,713,581,723,998,976
  • M = 14,713,581,723,998,976 kg

This considers King Kai's Planet as 100M radius & X10 times Earth's Gravity.

The small number is the size of King Kai's Planet Radius in relation to Earths:

  • Volume of a Sphere is V = (4/3) × pi × r^3
  • V = (4/3) × pi × 100m^3 = 4188790.2047863905m^3

This is using King Kai's Planet as 100M radius.

Knowing the

Mass

and

Volume

we can get

Density:

  • P = M/V
  • P = 14713581723998976kg / 4188790.2047863905m^3
  • P = 3.512608892.9415128417291527 X 10^9 kg/m^3

Density of a White Dwarf Star: "The average density of matter in a White Dwarf must therefore be, very roughly, 1,000,000 times greater than the average density of the Sun, or approximately 10^6 g/cm3." Which translates to 10^9 kg/m^3. So in other words it is over 3.5 times as dense as a White Dwarf Star.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_dwarf

The Dimensions of the Planet don't matter, only the Density, since we are talking about a Punch, not a Ki Blast.

King Kai's planet is no more than 30 Meters in Diameter (Pixels-Scaling), but even if it is 40, 50 or 90 Meters, the order of Magnitude (physically talking), is still the same (i.e. 10).

Now, Gravitational Force of a planet is given by this Formula:

F = (G*M*m)/r^2

G is the Universal Gravitational Constant (6,67*10^-11 [m^3/(kg*s^2)];

M is the Mass of the Planet (M is the Generic Reference of Mass)

R is the Radius of the Planet (or Distance between the two Mass's Centers)

Since King Kai's Gravitational Force is X10 times the Earth's Gravitational Force, we have Fk (Gravitational Force of King Kai's Planet) X10 times bigger than Fe (Earth's Gavity):

Fk/Fe = [(G*Mk*m)/rk^2]/[(G*Me*m)/re^2] = 10

G and M are in commons and go away, so we have:

(Mk/rk^2)/(Me/re^2) = 10

Mass is Volume (V)*Density (D), with Volume (of a Generical Planet) = (4/3)*π*r^3;

Back to the Formula:

((4/3)*π*rk^3*Dk)/rk^2 = Fk and ((4/3)*π*re^3*De)/re^2 = Fe, so:

Fk/Fe = (Dk*rk)/(De*re) = 10.

The only unknown term is Dk (density of King Kai's planet), while we know De and Re of Earth and Rk = 15 meters (assuming a diameter of King Kai's planet of 30 m, as previously said).

So, Dk = 1,17*10^10 kg/m^3, while density of Earth (De) is 5,5153*10^3 kg/m^3, so the Density of King Kai's planet is around X2 Million times higher than the Density of Earth, and Goku Punched a whole hole throughout this material.

Even if King Kai's planet had the same Gravitational Force as Earth, the fact it has such a small Diameter would still imply a huge Density, and indeed it would still have a Density around 200,000 times larger than the Density of the Earth.

Indeed, what really matters when talking about Physical Punches is the Density, and AT, giving us a planet of a few meters of Diameter and with a Gravitational Force X10 times greater than the one on Earth, is indisputably giving us that previously said enormous level of Density.

Imaging taking a Cube of 1 Meter of each side of the following materials:

  • Average Sun Composition: It would weigh around 1.4 Tons.
  • Average Earth Composition: It would weigh around 5.5 Tons.
  • Core of the Sun Material: It would weigh 150 Tons.
  • King Kai's Planet Material: It would weigh around 10 Million Tons.
  • Neutron Star Material: It would weigh around 280,000 Billion(s) Tons.

Punching the Core of the Sun would obviously require inhumane Striking Power, regardless of how much Matter (in KG) you punch away. Even worse would be just trying to physically scratch the surface of a Neutron Star.

A not even Blood-Lusted SSJ3 Goku actually vaporizes (with one punch) a whole quantity of a material (which according to canon info about King Kai's planet) that has thousands of times the Density of the Sun's Core.

Thus punching through Earth material for Goku would be a joke for him ( it would be like punching thin air for us), and the Earth would collapse on itself.

Final Stats:

Attribute:Extent:
Durability (Minimally) - Multi-Planetary Level+
Combat SpeedX2,344,000 (Over X2.3 Million) times FTL
Reaction SpeedNano-Second(s)++
Destructive/Power Output(Minimally) Enough to destroy the Solar System X4 Times Over.
Striking/Punching PowerHits (Minimally) with enough force to destroy the Earth with one-blow.

From all of this, Goku is fast enough to avoid every one of Thor's attacks, has the Striking Power to cause a lot of damage to Thor and the Destructive Output to KO him at the very minimum,

Your move.

Wow, just wow, let's just go to votes, i have no way to argue against that kind of power

#57 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@sebast_allen:

Wow, just wow, let's just go to votes, i have no way to argue against that kind of power

Wow, okay. Are you absolutely sure? I'd hate to end the debate this early.

#58 Posted by Stupid_People (1248 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: That was beautiful, my friend and I came to the same conclusion on the striking power with destroying Kai's planet so bravo! I'll reserve my formal vote until Sebast's answer comes.

#59 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@stupid_people:

Thanks, i'll call you out when the voting opens. But first, like you said we just need to get @sebast_allen's official answer.

#60 Posted by ndm5 (474 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Would you be able to tag me in this when the debate is over? I have a couple questions. And good job to both of you! The debate was very interesting :)

#61 Posted by Iragexcudder (4277 posts) - - Show Bio
#62 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@ndm5:

No problem, i'll tag you along with the rest once the voting is ready. We just need to hear it from @sebast_allen

#63 Posted by Lvenger (18328 posts) - - Show Bio

(Sigh) I was tempted to vote but I forgot how much I vehemently disagree with the fallacious power scaling (which ISN'T reliable in the slightest) calculations of DBZ feats when their on panel performance contradicts the fan made and highly subjective calculations greatly. I absolutely fail to see how Goku is anywhere near a multi planet buster in striking force let alone 2.3 million times the speed of light. Coupled with Thor's misconceived combat speed feats and in character mentality, I definitely have my issues with this debate.

#64 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

It's best we take this into a P.M, rather than here.

#65 Posted by Wolverine08 (38613 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

(Sigh) I was tempted to vote but I forgot how much I vehemently disagree with the fallacious power scaling (which ISN'T reliable in the slightest) calculations of DBZ feats when their on panel performance contradicts the fan made and highly subjective calculations greatly. I absolutely fail to see how Goku is anywhere near a multi planet buster in striking force let alone 2.3 million times the speed of light. Coupled with Thor's misconceived combat speed feats and in character mentality, I definitely have my issues with this debate.

But, but, Goku busts dimensions with his punches!

And Thor is fast! He just doesn't like using his speed!

Online
#66 Edited by Lvenger (18328 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: It's not my intention to derail this thread don't worry. I won't comment on here again.

#67 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

No worries, you haven't derailed it I just don't want it to be derailed.

#68 Posted by SheenLantern (6221 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

I was tempted to vote but I forgot how much I vehemently disagree with the fallacious power scaling (which ISN'T reliable in the slightest) calculations of DBZ feats when their on panel performance contradicts the fan made and highly subjective calculations greatly.

Would you care to give me examples as to why power scaling wouldn't be reliable in the context of something like Dragon Ball? And exactly which on-panel feats you consider to directly contradict the calculations?

#69 Posted by dondave (34429 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

(Sigh) I was tempted to vote but I forgot how much I vehemently disagree with the fallacious power scaling (which ISN'T reliable in the slightest) calculations of DBZ feats when their on panel performance contradicts the fan made and highly subjective calculations greatly. I absolutely fail to see how Goku is anywhere near a multi planet buster in striking force let alone 2.3 million times the speed of light. Coupled with Thor's misconceived combat speed feats and in character mentality, I definitely have my issues with this debate.

#70 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@sheenlantern:

I'll add you into the P.M, we're discussing it there.

#71 Posted by hart7668 (2294 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh boy....

I've got a lot of reading to do.....

#72 Posted by Sebast_Allen (1381 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Awesome debate bro, but it's time to vote.

#73 Posted by Jayko (77 posts) - - Show Bio

It's a basic fact Goku at SSJ3 would demolish Thor in seconds. However, my vote still goes to the one who debated for Goku.

#74 Posted by Bossmonster (2166 posts) - - Show Bio
@dondave said:

@lvenger said:

(Sigh) I was tempted to vote but I forgot how much I vehemently disagree with the fallacious power scaling (which ISN'T reliable in the slightest) calculations of DBZ feats when their on panel performance contradicts the fan made and highly subjective calculations greatly. I absolutely fail to see how Goku is anywhere near a multi planet buster in striking force let alone 2.3 million times the speed of light. Coupled with Thor's misconceived combat speed feats and in character mentality, I definitely have my issues with this debate.

Online
#75 Posted by Sebast_Allen (1381 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

(Sigh) I was tempted to vote but I forgot how much I vehemently disagree with the fallacious power scaling (which ISN'T reliable in the slightest) calculations of DBZ feats when their on panel performance contradicts the fan made and highly subjective calculations greatly. I absolutely fail to see how Goku is anywhere near a multi planet buster in striking force let alone 2.3 million times the speed of light. Coupled with Thor's misconceived combat speed feats and in character mentality, I definitely have my issues with this debate.

Not misconceived, just non jobbing, and they aren't in character, doesn't the op say they are bloodlusted but use the power they have wisely or something (fighting at his best).

#76 Posted by Limilicious (320 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Could you add me too? I kind of want to read.

#77 Posted by hart7668 (2294 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

#78 Posted by Iragexcudder (4277 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I'm not disagreeing with you but could you maybe do the calculations your way? Just so we could see your side of this. It doesn't seem like you agree with the statistics

#79 Posted by Sebast_Allen (1381 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Wanna do a video game showdown

#80 Posted by Lvenger (18328 posts) - - Show Bio

@iragexcudder: I haven't had the knowledge to learn how to do those kind of calculations so my performing them would be no more reliable than all the other calculations that have been done about this topic.

@sebast_allen Evidently Thor wouldn't job on purpose in the battle. But his speed pales in comparison to Goku's.

#81 Edited by Sebast_Allen (1381 posts) - - Show Bio
#83 Posted by Sebast_Allen (1381 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Yeah, we can begin the voting

#84 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@sebast_allen:

I'll think about it, but not right now when i'm free in terms of time. I have a lot to do at the moment, anyway we shall get the votes in now.

@jayko

Thanks for the vote, but you need to give a decent enough reason or else it won't be counted.

Voting Open:

@neongamewave @foreverevil :@sheenlantern @homicidalmaniac @nighthunder @limpoyzloan @ghostrider2 @the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk @iragexcudder @wolverine08 @monsterstomp @powerwoman @marshall_long @thundergodswrath @carter_esque @dratini1331 @darkbiscuit @hart7668 @ndm5

#85 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

Remember to give a decent reason along with your vote!

#86 Posted by NeonGameWave (7700 posts) - - Show Bio

This was a really cool debate and both sides did an exceptionally individualistic job of showcasing the advantages of their respective characters but overall the debator who I believe has done this more effectively is @pope052, his counters and arguments for why Goku would be able to take on Thor through sheer speed as well as raw power is not only plausibly convincing but its executed with factual intention and his arguments are very clear as they exude clarity from point to point.

#87 Posted by Sebast_Allen (1381 posts) - - Show Bio

This was a really cool debate and both sides did an exceptionally individualistic job of showcasing the advantages of their respective characters but overall the debator who I believe has done this more effectively is @pope052, his counters and arguments for why Goku would be able to take on Thor through sheer speed as well as raw power is not only plausibly convincing but its executed with factual intention and his arguments are very clear as they exude clarity from point to point.

This, how did i do for my first CAV though :p?

#88 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave:

You always give fantastic reasons, thanks dude.

Score 1-0

#89 Posted by NeonGameWave (7700 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave said:

This was a really cool debate and both sides did an exceptionally individualistic job of showcasing the advantages of their respective characters but overall the debator who I believe has done this more effectively is @pope052, his counters and arguments for why Goku would be able to take on Thor through sheer speed as well as raw power is not only plausibly convincing but its executed with factual intention and his arguments are very clear as they exude clarity from point to point.

This, how did i do for my first CAV though :p?

I think you did a great job! You were very understanding of the point-structures and you also held your own within the dynamics of debating while explaining your arguments, I`m looking forward to seeing you in future CAV`s and I think you`ll do great!!

#90 Posted by Iragexcudder (4277 posts) - - Show Bio
#91 Posted by NeonGameWave (7700 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@neongamewave:

You always give fantastic reasons, thanks dude.

Score 1-0

Thank you for the kind words, and your welcome!

Your a great, talented and one of my favorite debaters! I really like your debating style :)

#92 Edited by Dratini1331 (6978 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for @sebast_allen. I feel like the energy drain is a pertinent, and key part of this fight. it felt like pope just kind of swept it under the carpet a little. I feel Thor could theoretically drain Goku just fine, and there was no real counter to that, other than "speed blitz".

#93 Edited by Sebast_Allen (1381 posts) - - Show Bio
#94 Posted by Sebast_Allen (1381 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for @sebast_allen. I feel like the energy drain is a pertinent, and key part of this fight. it felt like pope just kind of swept it under the carpet a little. I feel Thor could theoretically drain Goku just fine, and there was no real counter to that, other than "speed blitz".

Yes, so i guess it's 3-1 to pope

#95 Edited by SheenLantern (6221 posts) - - Show Bio

The energy drain argument is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life. Thor can't react to street level attacks let alone MFTL energy beams.

@pope052 Dominated the debate.

#96 Posted by hart7668 (2294 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going to hand this one to @pope052.

Although I don't quite agree with absolutely everything in his post, he provided pertinent questions regarding Thor's ability to handle what Goku could throw at him (absorbing ki, thor's own durability, thor's reaction timing and certainly if Thor could even hit the Saiyan). She/He (are you a guy or no?) showed very reliably that Goku could most likely predict Thor's moves and certainly avoid them and counter them for the most part.

@sebast_allen wasn't a slouch either, but he didn't really sway me into believing Thor could handle Goku and ultimately ended up siding with his opponent in the end.

A few problems I had with the claims made on Goku (young and...older lol)

  • Pope claimed Kid Goku faster than light earlier on in the series - yet Mr. Popo said Goku had to be "faster than lightning" and Goku himself said it "wasn't easy" implying he couldn't yet do it (if he could, than why would he need to train?) We could get into the nitty gritty real life science behind why lightning isn't as fast as light, but it is generally accepted that it simply isn't.
  • "SSJ Trunks cut Frieza who had planet-busting durability - therefore Trunks has planet-busting striking power." Not necessarily - In the Saiyan Saga, Krillin, who was much weaker than Nappa, could have cut Nappa with his Destructo Disk, as mentioned by Vegeta. Cutting ability does not equate to blunt and or explosive force.
  • There is no evidence at all about actual punches or kicks containing anywhere near the force required to bust mountains let alone planets. Power-weighted Cell in his fight against SSJ2 Gohan attempted to punch Gohan, but Gohan dodged. The punch managed to create a small crater, but it certainly didn't do anymore than that. Previously, Cell launched a Kamehameha that would've destroyed the world if Gohan tried to evade or fail to return it, so I don't think Cell was beyond destroying Earth simply to defeat Gohan (I mean, he turned himself into a bomb later, so...). It is plainly evident that energy blasts and attacks can destroy planetary size and higher objects -it is highly questionable that pure physical attacks can even come remotely close to that. But, maybe I'm wrong xD
  • I'm also not sold on the fact that the power multipliers of the SSJ transformations (or even power levels) can be translated to actual units of speed and strength. The power levels refer to ki, not necessarily strength, although there is also a clear jump in strength too, so, I'm not entirely sure.
  • As evidenced in the above Raditz scan, energy attacks actually are higher than the person's own power level as a result of gathering all the latent ki energy into a single point. Basically I'm saying this: DBZ characters can certainly dish it, but can't necessarily take it. A planet-busting Kamehameha destroyed the upper half of Cell's body. Only reason he lived was his regeneration ability. On multiple occasions, the many incarnations of Buu were destroyed by planet-destroying attacks and such, but it never mattered but Buu has a nigh-infinite regeneration ability. In the anime (not sure about manga) when Kid Buu destroyed planets (quite easily, I should say) he was destroyed with them. It just never mattered because he can regenerate from anything un-pure. Although, it must be noted that Cell, when Gohan returned the planet-destroying Kamehameha, wasn't completely destroyed from it - bits of him were missing, but his body was mostly in tact. It makes me scratch my head.

Here is the power-weighted Cell scan as well as the scan showing Cell's intentions:

#97 Edited by reikai (4095 posts) - - Show Bio

I am thoroughly disappointed in the sheer lack of Thor scans that would show how grievously outmatched Goku is. And, btw, Thor can catch and absorb FTL Cosmic Blasts from the Silver Surfer. Goku's not outpacing anybody.

Thor wins, because I actually know what I'm talking about. Thor had planet-busting strength from the earliest onset, and could throw people outside of solar systems.

#98 Posted by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@sebast_allen:

Nope, it's 1-1. @dratini1331 and @neongamewave were the only ones to give reasoning. The others haven't, so they won't be counted (at least not yet).

@neongamewave

Thanks man, I really appreciate your respect for me. By the way, you're killing it in your SSJ4 Gogeta VS Dark Schneider debate, keep up the great work.

@iragexcudder @jayko @sheenlantern

While I do appreciate your votes, you need to give reasoning as to why you voted for me. The votes can only be counted under that circumstance, and I'll appreciate it if you do.

#99 Edited by Pope052 (2982 posts) - - Show Bio

@hart7668:

Thanks for the vote, and your post is something for me to consider. Perhaps in a P.M, but when I get the time I definitely will get around to it. Also, thanks for giving reasoning.

@reikai

Your post is completely against the rules here. It's about how I, and @sebast_allen did. Not your opinion on who would win in the actual fight and how Thor was interpreted. If you're not here to give a vote, then don't post something that's against the rules of the CAV.

#100 Edited by SheenLantern (6221 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai said:

I am thoroughly disappointed in the sheer lack of Thor scans that would show how grievously outmatched Goku is. And, btw, Thor can catch and absorb FTL Cosmic Blasts from the Silver Surfer. Goku's not outpacing anybody.

Thor wins, because I actually know what I'm talking about. Thor had planet-busting strength from the earliest onset, and could throw people outside of solar systems.

Silver Surfer doesn't have super-speed outside of travel speed. catching an attack from him is the equivalent of catching an attack from Batman.

Pope has already proved why a planet busting attack would tickle Goku.