Challenge A Viner:
Information On The Battle
- Win is by death, KO, or incap
- No preparation
- Basic knowledge on each other
- Morals Off
- No BFR
- Location: The Moon
Cav: Thor (HTTK) VS Invincible & Omni Man (SirFizzWhizz)
@sirfizzwhizz I thought I should begin.
Opener
Midgard's Protector, God Of Thunder, Prince Of Asgard, Thor Odinson
Background
Thor has always been among the mightiest of earth's defenders. He's grown a loving for earth more than any other character and will do almost anything to stop villainy from happening. Even if it costs him his life. Being the son of two Gods, being the God of thunder, not to mention wielding the nigh indestructible hammer Mjolnir, Thor is going to be a real force to be reckoned with.
Here is a little run down of Thor's power, abilities and stats.
Powers/Abilities/Stats
- Superhuman strength exceeding 100 tons by far
- Superhuman durability allowing him to tank damage that would be fatal to most others
- Superhuman reflexes, although some would disagree, Thor is quite fast
- High levels of stamina which allows him to fight months without rest
- Manipulation of every form of weather
- Manipulation over the earth
- Energy projection
- Energy manipulation
- Energy absorption
- Capable of opening portals of various sizes
- Capable of negating mystical energies
- Minor matter manipulation
- Capable of creating force-fields
- Capable of flying at faster than light speeds
Now for starters, in this battle we both hold distinct advantages over each other, although I do believe that Thor holds more than your team as I will show throughout this debate. Due to this, if it had been one on one I believe this fight would be quite uneven, though I do still think it's not going to fare well for your team. In fact I see Thor treating your team like how Thragg did, completely overpowering the family duo. Despite the speed advantage, Thor should be capable of overcoming it with his superior stats, and versatility. Though the Viltrumites are powerful, they only really have physical strength on their side, while Thor has other methods of attack which will prove to be difficult for your team to combat. I will start off by addressing the advantages Thor has in this fight, and some things I feel should be addressed.
Advantages
Strength/Striking Power
To start things off, I'll start by addressing one I think is plain and simple, Thor is stronger than either of the Viltrumites, and I would go as far as saying that he would still dominate them if they ruthlessly attacked him together. Their strength has been shown quite often in the series, and it's impressive, but strength isn't what's going to win them this battle anyways (even if they were near Thor's level), it's how hard they can strike, and compared to the Odinson, they are lacking. A strike from Thor, a morals off one for that matter, would be harder than even a strike that Allen and Thragg could produce, and they have quite easily messed up these too with their strengths. So, imagine what would happen if Thor hits them from a blow from Mjolnir, which has shown capabilities beyond anything the duo has come across? They can take some hits, but it's not going to be much if he lands them all. Just in-case your not aware of how hard Thor can strike, here is a feat of his which shows when his morals are gone his strikes can be quite powerful.
Here Iron Man sets Thor up for an assault on Hulk, in which he strikes the behemoth so hard he flies into a hydro dam. Thor wasn't too far from the dam, but for him to strike the Hulk away like that shows his striking power is up there.
Gallery
Though if this is not enough, here is a far more superior feat to the one displayed above. This is one of Thor's best feats, which shows that even if he's being meant with overwhelming force, he can still overcome, and overpower it. In this case it's Hulk, who picks up one of the hammers which land on earth becoming Nul Breaker Of Worlds. Despite this upgrade Thor meets Hulk half way in which both clash into each other, and Thor overpowers Hulk sending him to the other side of the planet. Not just that, he sent the Hulk into space in which he came crashing down somewhere else in the world. Also this is Hulk with a hammer which altered him, so it could be seen as a little upgrade. Granted Thor did seem to amplify himself with lightning, it's still shows his striking ability as it's something he can do again here within normal circumstances.
Gallery
That should be enough to indicate that Thor's striking output would be a lot more than the duo can produce.
Durability
Now another aspect I would like to get into is durability, which is going to play a crucial role in this because Viltrumites are incredibly hard to kill with physical means as they have great durability and pain tolerance. I will admit Thor doesn't show pain tolerance on the level they do, which is a feat in itself as Thor has great pain tolerance himself. Thing is, the duo is easier to hurt than Thor is, and they seem to just push through injuries and keep fighting, while Thor does do that too, he is more durable in the sense that he doesn't take as much damage as Invincible would. For example, if Thor was punched by someone like Doomsday, he would be injured, and if it was Invincible or Omni Man they would be punched right through, but due to their pain tolerance they would fight on despite the injury. For example look at Mark's fight's with Conquest, and Thragg and take in how easy it is to draw loads of blood from him (yes i'm aware that's how the comic is as i've read every issue to date), but it should be noted that Mark is injured by far less powerful beings than the one Thor fights.
Thor takes a energy blast from Thanos.
A massive punch.
Plus Thanos point blank releasing energy in face.
There is even more off panel fighting, and all Thor gets is a nose bleed, and a lost of amour. Yes he was being hurt throughout the fight, but he wasn't hurt in the way Invincible was. It's worst that Mark was fighting a far inferior being than Thanos, Conquest. I know Mark has gotten stronger from that point on, but he was still treated relatively the same by Thragg who is also much less of an opponent than Thanos. I could go on comparing more than just Thanos as it's consistent that Thor is more durable as shown in his fights with other powerful beings like Mangog, Destroyer Amour, Hulk, Classic Drax, ect.
Range/Versatile Attacks
Another advantage Thor has which is a great factor in this fight is his ranged attacks and versatility. The duo both lack any form or ranged attack unless they choose to pick up objects to throw at Thor, though being on the moon would mean all they would have is chunks of moon to throw at him. Really though he has them at a big disadvantage if he chooses to use these attacks as they have some serious fire power in them. Being the God of thunder and lightning, Thor can pretty much control all forms of weather so he can produce some extremely powerful bolts of lighting which have hurt beings more durable than Invincible or his father. Thor's lightning bolts have shown capable of hurting Hyperion, Hulk, Hercules, and more powerful beings. He can change the intensity in the lightning to release a much more powerful bolt which would obviously do more damage. Seeing as how your characters are quite fast, Thor can release it through his hammer, body, ground, and pretty much anyone. Omni-directional blasts will surely tag the duo, and I still doubt they will dodge every single bolt of lightning thrown their way. That's not even getting into the fact that Thor is capable of summoning hurricane winds, and tsunami's from his storms to attack your team which a blood-lusted Thor could do. Thor can also fire blasts of energy, and even throw his hammer which comes back to him in-which could be just as devastating as striking with his hammer. A great strategy Thor could use is toss the hammer at one of them (beings morals off would do a lot of damage to the inferior durability of the duo), and it would take them away from the battle for a bit, in-which he could use his lighting or physicals to beat the next one up until they come. Seeing as Thor can control the weather without the hammer he could do both simultaneously. He can call down his lightning quite easily, even when restrained. This would also be a great way to get the duo off him if they attack together.
Things I should Address
Speed
A disadvantage for Thor would be the speed of the two duo. They are pretty fast,plus there is too of them (which is the only reason speed is a problem) though they aren't anything Thor hasn't come across to be honest. Thor has dealt with faster and has shown reactions One way Thor can deal with their speed is by just flat out letting them get close inwhich he can retaliate, this is something he's done unintentionally to defend himself. In Seige when the Sentry blitzed Thor, he simply took it and struck back with a powerful blow sending him away from the battle which is a way that can separate the two from each other.
Tanks Sentry's blow.
Gets up without trouble, and knocks him away easily before he can land a second strike.
It's often thought that Thor is slow, but if you look at the scans the Sentry was ready to strike Thor again after he's on his stomach holding himself up, and before he could do it Thor strikes him away. Thor quite literally got up and struck the Sentry before he could even move close to strike Thor which shows Thor isn't slow at all and has some fast reaction speeds. The Sentry is no slouch when it comes to speed either, he's faster than your duo by quite a margin, so I don't see Thor having an extremely hard time fighting them if it's one on one (after he sends one away with his strike or lightning or hammer throw or blast). I'm not saying he will react to all of their attacks (because he won't), but that he can react to some.
Numbers
Another thing I would like to address is numbers, which in my opinion isn't going to play as big of a role as you may think. Invincible and Omni Man are both powerful enemies, but neither have the real output to knockout Thor if he's fighting back. Even fighting together would be an uphill battle. Thor has many ways of keeping them apart, or keeping them from attacking him with multiple strikes at the same time. For starters he can have Mjolnir take one away from the battle say for example one of them tries to grab onto it, which is what happened to Spider-Man. Seeing how Omni Man is over confident at times, he may try to grab the hammer thinking he's worthy and would succumb to this.
Even if this didn't happen Thor could easily just throw Mjolnir to strike one of them and send them away from for a bit, while he beats the crap out of the other using his own physical strength and lightning (Thor can transfer lightning into his fists to strike), There is even the idea that if they do manage to get close together, Thor could simply just call down a bolt of lightning to get them off him as together they would do more damage. He can call the lightning bolt down upon himself (which cannot hurt him), but will surely hurt the duo.
Gallery
Summary
As a reader of Invincible too, I know that they haven't come across anyone who strikes as hard as Thor, has lightning as powerful as Thor's, nor as durable as Thor, nor have his abilities. While Thor has fought numerous beings who have the similar flying brick powers the duo do (Prime, Hyperion, Wonder Man, Gladiator, ect). So Thor has experience fighting beings with this power-set, while this is entirely new for the team. They are fighting a being who is more powerful than anything they have faced before, and he's fighting two beings who are inferior to him despite being together. In the end Thor just clearly outweigh's your team, and has the means to put them down.
Thor has
- Greater striking power
- More versatile
- More durable
- Has ranged attacks
And he
- Can react to some of their attacks, if not tank and then retaliate
- Use lightning bolts to keep them apart or a hammer throw
- Has experience fighting their power-set, while they don't his
Your turn.
Opener
INVINCIBLE
Mark is a half Viltrumite, and half Human hybrid. However his Viltrumite blood is fully compatible with human, leaving almost no difference between the two, other than the powers. He was raised by his father to help take down earth for the Empire, but raised as a hero, thus a major conflict was involved. Mark chose earth over his father, and became one of earths most powerful heroes. Mark is constantly getting stronger with every new major threat, and fights to keep safe his family and friends, while trying to do the right thing.
Omni Man
Nolan is a 500 year old Viltrumite, trained by the largest Empire in the Galaxy to take down other super races and beings, sent to infiltrate earth to get it ready to be subjugated for the Viltrumite Empire. To do this he had to keep the world safe from itself, posing as a Hero called Omni Man. When Mark grew up, Nolan decided to lay the truth on his boy, which did not end well. Nolan forced to make a decision to kill his son, or betray the Empire, he chose the latter. Since then he gradually became the person he pretended to be for so many years, and is now the leader of the Viltrumites, after nearly wiping his own species out.
So with that quick run down out of the way, the real question is what is a Viltrumite? What are there powers? All there powers are base on Smart Atoms.
Smart Atoms
Smart Atoms are the special mojo of the Sky Bound universe that allows for super powers. Like DBZ has Ki, Invincible characters have Smart Atoms. Smart Atoms is basicaly atomic to sub atomic level manipulation that grants all sorts of powers. However most races or beings can only access one or maybe two of the host of abilities Smart Atoms can do, Viltrumites is the only race to harness several features of the Smart Atoms, and have this ability encoded in their DNA.
Viltrumite DNA
Smart Atoms are present in Viltrumite DNA, and grants them their powers. This includes super levels of strength, healing, speed, and durability.
Quotes of Viltrumites able to go massively FTL. They are able to as stated do this near instant. In turn they are affected by time dilation by doing so granting the reaction and such that comes with that speed. Last scan states specifically there bodies attain these speeds near instant.
So that is Omni Man and Invincible in a nut shell. Omni Man is very much experience fighting all manner of beings with crazy super powers, and has taken down whole planets for the Empire. Mark like wise has grown to be Earths greatest hero since his father, and currently is shown to very much match his father in every way. Kinda cool arguing for these two because they have the same powers and roughly the same stats.
Now for starters, in this battle we both hold distinct advantages over each other, although I do believe that Thor holds more than your team as I will show throughout this debate. Due to this, if it had been one on one I believe this fight would be quite uneven, though I do still think it's not going to fare well for your team. In fact I see Thor treating your team like how Thragg did, completely overpowering the family duo. Despite the speed advantage, Thor should be capable of overcoming it with his superior stats, and versatility. Though the Viltrumites are powerful, they only really have physical strength on their side, while Thor has other methods of attack which will prove to be difficult for your team to combat. I will start off by addressing the advantages Thor has in this fight, and some things I feel should be addressed.
Well currently Invincible and Omni man showed better ability with Thragg after the War, and Thragg IMO would trash Thor anyway. So lets get to this. There is Two advantages Thor has over my team, and it mitagted by my teams others.
Strength
Strength/Striking Power
To start things off, I'll start by addressing one I think is plain and simple, Thor is stronger than either of the Viltrumites, and I would go as far as saying that he would still dominate them if they ruthlessly attacked him together. Their strength has been shown quite often in the series, and it's impressive, but strength isn't what's going to win them this battle anyways (even if they were near Thor's level), it's how hard they can strike, and compared to the Odinson, they are lacking. A strike from Thor, a morals off one for that matter, would be harder than even a strike that Allen and Thragg could produce, and they have quite easily messed up these too with their strengths. So, imagine what would happen if Thor hits them from a blow from Mjolnir, which has shown capabilities beyond anything the duo has come across? They can take some hits, but it's not going to be much if he lands them all. Just in-case your not aware of how hard Thor can strike, here is a feat of his which shows when his morals are gone his strikes can be quite powerful.
Here Iron Man sets Thor up for an assault on Hulk, in which he strikes the behemoth so hard he flies into a hydro dam. Thor wasn't too far from the dam, but for him to strike the Hulk away like that shows his striking power is up there.
Though if this is not enough, here is a far more superior feat to the one displayed above. This is one of Thor's best feats, which shows that even if he's being meant with overwhelming force, he can still overcome, and overpower it. In this case it's Hulk, who picks up one of the hammers which land on earth becoming Nul Breaker Of Worlds. Despite this upgrade Thor meets Hulk half way in which both clash into each other, and Thor overpowers Hulk sending him to the other side of the planet. Not just that, he sent the Hulk into space in which he came crashing down somewhere else in the world. Also this is Hulk with a hammer which altered him, so it could be seen as a little upgrade. Granted Thor did seem to amplify himself with lightning, it's still shows his striking ability as it's something he can do again here within normal circumstances.
That should be enough to indicate that Thor's striking output would be a lot more than the duo can produce.
Lets cut the crap and simply state Thor can and does crack worlds, at best crack them with his best blows. However this strength is not end all be all, nor outclasses my team here. Viltrumites have feats of punching others into space, and around country sides. They also have feats of fighting beings with Superman powers a few times. While not heavy lifters at all, they can still throw Aircraft size space ship piece into space.
Add to this both my characters have shown time and again to harm beings with the same durability as themselves, which is insane high as I will show later.
Now this may not look impressive at all, but let me assure you how impressive it is when we get to the Durability argument why harming Viltrumiotes and each other is a good feat of strength.
Durability
Now another aspect I would like to get into is durability, which is going to play a crucial role in this because Viltrumites are incredibly hard to kill with physical means as they have great durability and pain tolerance. I will admit Thor doesn't show pain tolerance on the level they do, which is a feat in itself as Thor has great pain tolerance himself. Thing is, the duo is easier to hurt than Thor is, and they seem to just push through injuries and keep fighting, while Thor does do that too, he is more durable in the sense that he doesn't take as much damage as Invincible would. For example, if Thor was punched by someone like Doomsday, he would be injured, and if it was Invincible or Omni Man they would be punched right through, but due to their pain tolerance they would fight on despite the injury. For example look at Mark's fight's with Conquest, and Thragg and take in how easy it is to draw loads of blood from him (yes i'm aware that's how the comic is as i've read every issue to date), but it should be noted that Mark is injured by far less powerful beings than the one Thor fights.
Thor takes a energy blast from Thanos.
A massive punch.
Plus Thanos point blank releasing energy in face.
There is even more off panel fighting, and all Thor gets is a nose bleed, and a lost of amour. Yes he was being hurt throughout the fight, but he wasn't hurt in the way Invincible was. It's worst that Mark was fighting a far inferior being than Thanos, Conquest. I know Mark has gotten stronger from that point on, but he was still treated relatively the same by Thragg who is also much less of an opponent than Thanos. I could go on comparing more than just Thanos as it's consistent that Thor is more durable as shown in his fights with other powerful beings like Mangog, Destroyer Amour, Hulk, Classic Drax, ect.
Wow, your using a fight with Bendis Thanos, a being far inferior to his classic days by feats, as proof? Recently Namor made Thanos Bleed with a punch recently. Should I take that serious showing?
As for Conquest you think he is inferior? Yes he is overall but so is Thor to Thanos, at least not a weak written one like Bendis Thanos is. Seriously you want to say these feats are the bench mark? I think not. Thor been harm by far weaker beings in strength, and like wise been beaten as well. beings like Beta Ray Bill, Kurse, Namor, Classic Drax, and Hulk are all >>> Thanos. So way to go to pull out a clear PIS moment there.
So what about my characters Durability? I think they are comparable for sure.
Im not convince Thor is harming my guys easy at all. The worst part is the speed factor, which I will touch on, making the blows far and few in between. as seen how durable Viltumites are, and what they are able to tank, harming the beings like Conquest and Thragg, and a Invincible is insane good showing of strength of their blows. their doing alot more than tickling Thor like you think so far.
Other Things
Range/Versatile Attacks
Another advantage Thor has which is a great factor in this fight is his ranged attacks and versatility. The duo both lack any form or ranged attack unless they choose to pick up objects to throw at Thor, though being on the moon would mean all they would have is chunks of moon to throw at him. Really though he has them at a big disadvantage if he chooses to use these attacks as they have some serious fire power in them. Being the God of thunder and lightning, Thor can pretty much control all forms of weather so he can produce some extremely powerful bolts of lighting which have hurt beings more durable than Invincible or his father. Thor's lightning bolts have shown capable of hurting Hyperion, Hulk, Hercules, and more powerful beings. He can change the intensity in the lightning to release a much more powerful bolt which would obviously do more damage. Seeing as how your characters are quite fast, Thor can release it through his hammer, body, ground, and pretty much anyone. Omni-directional blasts will surely tag the duo, and I still doubt they will dodge every single bolt of lightning thrown their way. That's not even getting into the fact that Thor is capable of summoning hurricane winds, and tsunami's from his storms to attack your team which a blood-lusted Thor could do. Thor can also fire blasts of energy, and even throw his hammer which comes back to him in-which could be just as devastating as striking with his hammer. A great strategy Thor could use is toss the hammer at one of them (beings morals off would do a lot of damage to the inferior durability of the duo), and it would take them away from the battle for a bit, in-which he could use his lighting or physicals to beat the next one up until they come. Seeing as Thor can control the weather without the hammer he could do both simultaneously. He can call down his lightning quite easily, even when restrained. This would also be a great way to get the duo off him if they attack together.
All that sounds cool.... too bad its rare for Thor to use half what your saying. Seriously 80% of his fights are brawls with some lightning. nothing more. While the options are there, he rarely in character uses them against the likes of many foes. However range is not a huge deal to me. The fact is I counter this with the fact I have two guys here and not one. Two characters who have excellent synergy, and can attack Thor from distractions at speeds he simply will not be able to deal with at all. Now lets get to my major advantage.
Speed
Speed
A disadvantage for Thor would be the speed of the two duo. They are pretty fast,plus there is too of them (which is the only reason speed is a problem) though they aren't anything Thor hasn't come across to be honest. Thor has dealt with faster and has shown reactions One way Thor can deal with their speed is by just flat out letting them get close inwhich he can retaliate, this is something he's done unintentionally to defend himself. In Seige when the Sentry blitzed Thor, he simply took it and struck back with a powerful blow sending him away from the battle which is a way that can separate the two from each other.
Tanks Sentry's blow.
Gets up without trouble, and knocks him away easily before he can land a second strike.
It's often thought that Thor is slow, but if you look at the scans the Sentry was ready to strike Thor again after he's on his stomach holding himself up, and before he could do it Thor strikes him away. Thor quite literally got up and struck the Sentry before he could even move close to strike Thor which shows Thor isn't slow at all and has some fast reaction speeds. The Sentry is no slouch when it comes to speed either, he's faster than your duo by quite a margin, so I don't see Thor having an extremely hard time fighting them if it's one on one (after he sends one away with his strike or lightning or hammer throw or blast). I'm not saying he will react to all of their attacks (because he won't), but that he can react to some.
Thor is slow. Its a fact.
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/thor-runs-the-combat-speed-gautlet-691255/?page=10
i hope anyone want to see true arguments to this by the top experts will give it a read. most of thors "speed feats" are simply getting the tag on characters for sake of plot. Here is some examples why Thor is simply slow.
States as slow as a cloud by a nobody with no super speed.
Cap states to Thunderstrike how slow Thor was as well in training sessions.
Quicksilver who is massively slower than Invincible or Omni Man dodges lightning from Thor fine, and Thor can only tag him by affecting the ground, something my characters do not have to worry about.
Here is one of the many examples of Wolverine blitzing Thor. Thor admitting he is faster than him in the last scan.
Thor blitz badly by Sentry when Sentry uses his speed.
Phoenix Emma who never use super speed, easily countered Thors best descending strike easy.
Blizt by Gladiator before he could counter.
I can go on for awhile on the speed inconsistency. Honestly a great debater I know by the name @killemall said it best.
In short, its well documented how inconsistent, and questionable Thor's combat speed is. We know he has FTL Travel speed, but so what? This is a fight, and he is being blitz by two beings who are FTL and use that speed in combat.
Numbers
Another thing I would like to address is numbers, which in my opinion isn't going to play as big of a role as you may think. Invincible and Omni Man are both powerful enemies, but neither have the real output to knockout Thor if he's fighting back. Even fighting together would be an uphill battle. Thor has many ways of keeping them apart, or keeping them from attacking him with multiple strikes at the same time. For starters he can have Mjolnir take one away from the battle say for example one of them tries to grab onto it, which is what happened to Spider-Man. Seeing how Omni Man is over confident at times, he may try to grab the hammer thinking he's worthy and would succumb to this.
Even if this didn't happen Thor could easily just throw Mjolnir to strike one of them and send them away from for a bit, while he beats the crap out of the other using his own physical strength and lightning (Thor can transfer lightning into his fists to strike), There is even the idea that if they do manage to get close together, Thor could simply just call down a bolt of lightning to get them off him as together they would do more damage. He can call the lightning bolt down upon himself (which cannot hurt him), but will surely hurt the duo.
Two problems. One is Omni man is a super genius at fighting. To say he will try to use the hammer or some crap is BS, and not in character at all of his fights vs beings. He never relies on anyone else weapons when fighting them, why now? Are my characters shown to be dumb? Hell's to the no. Omni Man as said earlier has been trained, with over 1000s of years of combat experience against all manner of super beings. He is well versed in powers, and even once took over a entire alien world (the Flaxans who have serious tech) while depowered in a alternate dimension. He rose to be a leader untill he got his powers back in that world. The guy is smart as hell. He leads the whole Viltrumite empire.
This here shows how out of all the smart super beings, he ranked highest in his pursuit to be a world conquer, and lead his own division as the head honcho from his exploits.
Here he explains he was depowered and enslaved by a super intelligent race of dimension invaders, and was smart enough to lead a successful revolt with just his smarts, and then took them all down after finding a way to regain his powers.
Here Omni Man explains how he alone came up with the idea to defeat a planet of Viltrumite killing beats.
Omni Man is tasked by the Coalition of Planets, a alliance with genius space faring races, to beat the Viltrumite enemy that they failed to beat time and again. He shows his genius in battle planning and general smarts again. Figures out the deadliest toxin to Viltrumites, and figures a way to harvest it when it was thought impossible to harvest, on the drop of a dime. Forges alliances with people who hate him. Shows in the last panel that Omni Man alone had take down a species capable of fighting Viltrumites, claiming he did his job too well.
What about Mark? You think he might be dumb? Mark is a insane smart fighter too.
In this battle Mark fights a foe who can dump people in the Dark Dimension, but Mark was smart enough to know instantly that should he hang on, there was a good chance he would not be stuck there. He did this without ever meeting this guy, or knowing his powers. On the fly tactical smarts.
Here again he shows that very logical sense of fighting. He never met this foe, and he could not overpower at the time, Invincible was alot weaker at this time before he gotten more powerful. So how does he win? He asked a very smart question, does he need to breath? Well it turns out he does.
Power Plex has the power to take Kinetic energy, and make it into powerful attacks. Every blow from Invincible empowered him, so to beat him Mark applied a very practical solution, hug it out. Allowing the foe to self drain trying to get out of the strength grip of Invincible. All this shows my characters are FAR FAR FAR above the common brawlers like most brick comic characters. you think Thor will be a secret to them? Honestly I find my characters smarter.
Second is the fact you SEVERELY underestimate the team effectiveness in this fight. 1 on 1 I still feel Omni Man or Invincible should win. together there chances are a heavy majority. The fact is there is two targets moving at speeds far faster than Thor is simply going to compete with. Even if he lands a few hits, it wont do that much, and the duo are landing tons of Sub Atomic damaging blows to Thor here. Dropping him in a matter of minuets truth be told.
Summary
As a reader of Invincible too, I know that they haven't come across anyone who strikes as hard as Thor, has lightning as powerful as Thor's, nor as durable as Thor, nor have his abilities. While Thor has fought numerous beings who have the similar flying brick powers the duo do (Prime, Hyperion, Wonder Man, Gladiator, ect). So Thor has experience fighting beings with this power-set, while this is entirely new for the team. They are fighting a being who is more powerful than anything they have faced before, and he's fighting two beings who are inferior to him despite being together. In the end Thor just clearly outweigh's your team, and has the means to put them down.
I like how you stated "As a reader of Invincible too," like that means something here. I read Thor comics, own more than a few of them too when growing up, and nothing you said is accurate at all to how this match goes down. The duo here fought multiple viltrumites at a time fine, and beaten beings on pass there level like Power Plex, the Sequids, Conquest, and om cross overs dealt with beings like Pitt, Spawn, Witchblade, and Supreme.
There is nothing your bringing to the table they cannot deal with or contend with.
My Advatages
- Speed kills. My team can close the distance super fast, land many blows to your few, and attack from separate directions making it more impossible to react or block.
- Once my guys are in close combat, landing tons of blows, the ability to try to use Lightning or Hurricane sounds silly. he will not have the chance to summon it forth.
- My team has great battle smarts, very intelligent beings, and have top notch synergy.
- My team face variety of foes like Thor, some more dangerous, and survived. Thor is bringing nothing new here.
I can tell you exactly how this fights ends.
Alright, seeing as we agreed to get back to this, let's continue!
Counters
Well currently Invincible and Omni man showed better ability with Thragg after the War, and Thragg IMO would trash Thor anyway. So lets get to this. There is Two advantages Thor has over my team, and it mitagted by my teams others.
They haven't really became more impressive to make them any more of a threat to Thor. Yes they've shown more physical strength, striking power, and durability to show they can do more, but it pales in comparison to Thor's. Also stating your opinion that Thragg alone would thrash Thor is strictly an opinion with nothing to prove it. In fact it's the other way around, but there is no point in debating that as it's not between those two. From what I've accounted, Thor holds more than two advantages. To be more precise he holds every advantage except speed, so really who has more advantages here?
Strength
Lets cut the crap and simply state Thor can and does crack worlds, at best crack them with his best blows. However this strength is not end all be all, nor outclasses my team here. Viltrumites have feats of punching others into space, and around country sides.
Okay, you seem eager to cut to the chase, so I guess we shall just do that. You are correct, Thor has the striking power to crack planets, but don't go off stating that the Viltrumites can because they have never done that before. How are you going to say Thor has planetary strength, and than tell me about Invincible and Omni Man being able to punch people into space or around countries in order to show they are not heavily outclassed in striking power? Destroying a planet is much above those feats, and I really don't know how you comprehended they are of similar levels.
Either way here is Thor showing planetary destruction by himself. I should also note that this was an indirect hit too. Thor's attack was directly focused upon Beta Ray Bill and the impact was sent throughout the planet destroying it.
And before you state the planet wasn't anywhere near large, here is the exact size of the planet before Thor destroyed it.
So please tell me, how are they not outclassed in striking power?
hey also have feats of fighting beings with Superman powers a few times. While not heavy lifters at all, they can still throw Aircraft size space ship piece into space.
No they haven't, unless you are speaking of Solar Man, there isn't anyone they fought with Superman's power-set. It's just the typical flying brute package (super strength, flight, speed). You say they are not outclassed by Thor that much, but than say they aren't heavy hitters at all. Thor is a heavy hitter, so what would that make them if they are not? Heavily inferior physically.
Invincible here throws a piece of ship of enormous size into space. Whats impressive is it took Thadeus and Tech Jacket combine to preform the same feat. While Mark is being help by Oliver, it cant be much considering Kid Omni Man was only as strong as Mark was when he first got his powers, and by age that would make Oliver less than a 100 toner. Oliver feats show as much as well.
I'm not one to downplay a good feat when I see it, so let me go on and state that's an incredibly great feat, but tell me does that actually show any relevance to this battle? We're not seeing who is physically stronger, but who is capable of striking harder as it's what would hold more weight in this battle. Even so it's pretty obvious Thor beats them in this aspect too.
Thor is able to easily lift the largest mountain in all of Jountehiem with what seems to be ease, and than he tosses it like it's nothing. What also makes this impressive is the fact that he had to bring the mountain all the way from Jountehiem to earth, which is a long journey, and he carried it to earth with ease
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If Oliver could fly through an aircraft like that, and assist in tossing it into space he would have to be above 100 tons. Just saying.
Add to this both my characters have shown time and again to harm beings with the same durability as themselves, which is insane high as I will show later.
How is that impressive at all? Every single being shown in comics can hurt someone with the same durability as themselves, so why is it anything good? Even a regular person can hurt another regular person. Nothing special. What's better is hurting someone more powerful than themselves like Thor has done many upon many times.
I'll give you one of those moments. Here Thor shatters Emma Frost while she was in possession of a portion of the Phoenix Force which would make her much more powerful than Thor. She was in her diamond form which would be more durable thanks to the Phoenix Force. Thor not only shatters her entire body bar her legs, but he sends the shards blasting into space.
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I wouldn't believe that your team would stand a blow like this as there healing factor isn't of a level which would heal the damage nor is there durability high enough to tank a blow like this. This is a level of striking which your team can seem to match or take on.
Both Omni Man nad Invinicble are capable with their strength to bleed and damage Viltrumites as a younger age.
What do you mean at a younger age? Aren't they only like one year older from when this feat takes place? What's the difference? By the way Omn-Man was stronger than those Vitrumites, it was Invincible who was of a comparable level at the time. Even though hurting someone with similar durability isn't a huge feat. Especially when it takes almost dozens of blows for them to take down their opposition like you've shown me here.
Omni Man crushing skulls with his best blows like grape fruit on the same Viltrumites.
Omni Man was stronger than those Vitrumites as shown when he's still standing and Invincible is lying down.
Tech Jacket here can tank modern Nukes at 1% power fin, yet a single lower level Viltrumite punch nearly does him in. Invincible and Omni Man are superior as they fought him with others at the same time
Did Tech Jacket take the nuke at point blank, because the energy from a nuke would be spread out, oppose to a punch from a Vitrumite. Not to mention a strike from a Vitrumite would be a different form of attack compared to a nuclear explosion. One is energy, and the other is physical strength.
Invincible and one of his weaker evil selves strike hard enough to bash into mush a stronger version of himself.
It was a combined effort.
Here he smashes in the Conquest skull into mush. Conquest who is one of the top 3 Viltrumites.
A Vitrumite who is far less durable than Thor himself. Still a nice feat though.
Actually manages to harm and draw blood from the strongest Viltrumite in the comics, Thragg.
Cool.
Now this may not look impressive at all, but let me assure you how impressive it is when we get to the Durability argument why harming Viltrumiotes and each other is a good feat of strength.
They are impressive, just not as much as you're going to try and make them out to be. If this is going to be used to show how they will be capable of taking down Thor, then it's a bad attempt as he's taken blows from beings which would show these to be failed attempts. At most these attacks will cause some pain, but nothing that will hurt him in the long run. Heck you won't even be able to take that trusty helmet off his head.
Sentry was capable of bull-rushing an unaware Thor at many times the speed of light, so fast he couldn't react. He then proceeds to smash Thor into a planet (into the gamma lava of the planet) at these speeds after flying through space.
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Thor isn't even too hurt after this, in fact he goes on to fight Sentry after this beating and more after.
The Sentry was moving so fast his velocity was capable of bending space and time. They were moving many times faster than light.
They traveled light years. So they moved a far distance, and it's known the farther something moves and the speed is going at increases the impact of something.
Good look on your Vitrumites trying to cause Thor too much trouble.
Durability
Wow, your using a fight with Bendis Thanos, a being far inferior to his classic days by feats, as proof? Recently Namor made Thanos Bleed with a punch recently. Should I take that serious showing?
I don't see why there is anything wrong with it? The same comic had Thanos tanking Thor's lighting like it was nothing, and tanking Thor's strike.
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Regardless of what you say he was still shown incredibly powerful as always. Also don't try to downplay the feat because it's an extremely good one for Thor. He's always been able to engage Thanos, and tank some of his blows too. I knew you would bring up the recent showing of Namor drawing blood from Thanos. Is it not the same as Invincible hurting Thragg even though you stated yourself that he's more stronger than Omni-Man and Invincible. Doesn't seem to be fair you try to call me out on that, but your showing is fault proof.
As for Conquest you think he is inferior? Yes he is overall but so is Thor to Thanos, at least not a weak written one like Bendis Thanos is. Seriously you want to say these feats are the bench mark? I think not. Thor been harm by far weaker beings in strength, and like wise been beaten as well. beings like Beta Ray Bill, Kurse, Namor, Classic Drax, and Hulk are all >>> Thanos. So way to go to pull out a clear PIS moment there.
I don't really care how you see the feat as it's consistent in Thor's showings he's always been shown to do things like this to beings of Thanos's level. Yes he has been KO'ed by less, but does that mean anything when your characters don't even have the strength to overcome his lower showings? Get out of here with this, trying to downplay the feat. Regardless if you like it or not Thanos had to exert himself a bit against Thor because the thunder god is simply that strong. PIS? So you're going to ignore the times Thor has took hits from Odin, Celestials, Ymir, Surtur, Mephisto, Demogorge, Cosmic Beings, Galactus, The Destroyer Amour, Zeus, ect? Yeah, every single being I just named is of comparable levels of Thanos or superior and Thor has been able to hurt them or take some attacks from them regardless if they were using their full power or not.
So what about my characters Durability? I think they are comparable for sure.
There has been nothing shown throughout all their appearances to show that they have anywhere near comparable durability to Thor? You're just throwing out baseless things which have no proof to justify them in order to try and make the Vitrumites as powerful as Thor which even together they still aren't.
Sub atomic level controlled durability.
I seen how you go crazy with this smart atom's durability thing, and to be honest I rather not get too much into it.
Mark at his weakest incarnation was able to tank Dimension exploding energies that ashed a army very powerful Mauler Twins.
How big was the dimension that was destroyed? By the way the Mauler Twins are nothing of such, and have been easily been defeated by Oliver who as you've stated yourself shouldn't be even a 100 tonner. Also you wanna know something though, you are kind of being hypocritical as you want to say Thor has been taken down by lower damage outputs than Thanos's attacks, yet Invincible has been taken down by attacks with less potency than dimensional destruction. What do you have to justify this?
Able to tank the focus power of a city busting beam with little problem or any damage after the blast.
There isn't really proof that says she would actually be able to do that, but again you see how this ties in with the above? Invincible has been hurt by less yet easily tanks this? See what you caused when you try and throw out Thor's feat with Thanos. Either way good feat.
Mark hit by Thermonuclear bomb with no harm at all.
Mark also tanked a bomb that was so hot, it disintegrated every molecule in Las Vegas off the planet! Mark coughs a bit.
Impressive.
Not to mention Durable enough to fly through a planet, with only a destabilize Core being questionable, but through most of the planet at light speed, and then tank the planet explosion shock wave that hits them. After all this they continue fighting.
The core was destabilized, so they barely did anything except fly through the destabilized core of the planet. They also didn't tank the planet's destruction as you've stated they are light speed, you can clearly see that they flew out the planet before most of the actual planet's destruction actually struck them. Only the blast radius at the end really hurt them, and that was enough to give Invincible a bloody nose and mouth. As I've shown with Thor he destroyed a planet point blank and tanked it's destruction. A much better feat than this because...
- He actually destroyed the planet with his own powers
- He did it alone
- He tanked the destruction point blank (he was still standing on the planet when it was destroyed)
Atom Eve atomic abilities at work. She simply manipulates atoms how see she fit. Yet a all out blood lusted Atom Eve could could only manage to burn a Viltrumite's skin off with her powers.
Or is this because Atom Eve barely knows how to control her powers when she's going all out. Evidently shown when she falls on unconscious after using this attack.
Conquest keeps fighting, and Mark still had a desperate fight on his hands. Clearly more resistance to Atomic and Sub atomic level attacks.
All it shows is the inferiority of Invincible to Conquest is as he can't even take down him after he's taken an atomic blast from Atom Eve.
Now that your mini respect thread is done, I don't see much to say Invincible is tanking blows from Thor. Since you want to underplay all Thor's striking feats even though each of them outdoes yours, here is Thor striking someone into space. Mind, this is with his fist, and not Mjolnir which makes him strike much harder.
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Im not convince Thor is harming my guys easy at all. The worst part is the speed factor, which I will touch on, making the blows far and few in between. as seen how durable Viltumites are, and what they are able to tank, harming the beings like Conquest and Thragg, and a Invincible is insane good showing of strength of their blows. their doing alot more than tickling Thor like you think so far
That's because you're trying to muster up everything you have to show that Thor can't cause much harm to the Vitrumites despite everything that's been shown. Vitrumites aren't nearly as durable as you try and sell them out to be. Your only real thing that's been troublesome this entire time is speed. Anything else wouldn't do all too much Thor.
Other Things
All that sounds cool.... too bad its rare for Thor to use half what your saying. Seriously 80% of his fights are brawls with some lightning. nothing more. While the options are there, he rarely in character uses them against the likes of many foes. However range is not a huge deal to me. The fact is I counter this with the fact I have two guys here and not one. Two characters who have excellent synergy, and can attack Thor from distractions at speeds he simply will not be able to deal with at all. Now lets get to my major advantage.
All I really stated was Thor is going to use lighting and throw his hammer. I mostly just elobated on the various ways he uses his lightning manipulation so I don't see why they won't come into play.The options are very well there, and will come into play causing damage to Invincible and Omni-Man. This will obviously give Thor a range advantage which your team lacks and will make it so that he can't be double teamed throughout the fight. You better hope your speed is enough because that's the only thing helping them from having their heads caved in.
Something like this will make it so that he could throw them off him or allow him self to tag them easier while they are stunned.
His lightning bolts are incredibly powerful by the way. Just one can have Hercules yelling in pain.
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Or powerful enough to hurt the Hell Lord Hela.
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Speed
Thor is slow. Its a fact.
That hasn't really been proved. That's more of something you and other Viners try to use in order to make him less of a threat due to the fact that he outclasses mostly everyone else in other areas. They simply just want something to make Thor seem weaker.
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/thor-runs-the-combat-speed-gautlet-691255/?page=10
i hope anyone want to see true arguments to this by the top experts will give it a read. most of thors "speed feats" are simply getting the tag on characters for sake of plot. Here is some examples why Thor is simply slow.
I don't really care for that. Use your own words on this thread to explain to me while Thor is slow or isn't tagging the Vitrumites, because you seem to just want to use info given by others. Honestly I've seen you do the same thing with Hulk recently. If someone can tag characters who is supposedly fast, than why would you get the idea it's for plot if it's happened many times. Tell me if that makes sense.
States as slow as a cloud by a nobody with no super speed.
I haven't read this comic, so I don't know, but was it specifically stated that this guy lacked any form of super speed? Again Thor was just charging him like a brute, not using speed at all in this instance. There are many times when faster characters don't use their speed in battle. For example Mongul tagging Superman, Girder tagging Flash, ect.
Cap states to Thunderstrike how slow Thor was as well in training sessions.
That's not Thunderstrike, it's Eric Masterson. He's not the real Thor Odinson so you can't compare as he's less powerful, and skilled compared to the real one. Next time do your research because here is what happened when Eric tried to strike Thor. He couldn't even land a hit. Eric was in possession of the hammer at the moment too.
Quicksilver who is massively slower than Invincible or Omni Man dodges lightning from Thor fine, and Thor can only tag him by affecting the ground, something my characters do not have to worry about.
Massively slower? Is he even slower at all? Vitrumites are only faster than light in space, so I don't know where you're getting that they're extremely faster than Quicksilver from. This is a guy who is as fast as radio-waves. He dodged a lighting bolt from Thor, yes. Though when Thor struck the ground to tag him it worked. I don't see why it wouldn't work here. Even if they are flying Thor can simply smash harder for a bigger impact.
Here is one of the many examples of Wolverine blitzing Thor. Thor admitting he is faster than him in the last scan.
Do you know what a blitz is? This is a speed-blitz.
In the first scan Thor was trying to get Logan to stop and he attacked him when he was trying to reason. You failed big time here man. Thor even goes on to punch Wolverine in the face, and use his Odin power to melt him. Where is the superior speed here?
Now regarding the second scan, Thor was holding back as Logan is his friend and all. He knew there was a reason behind him attacking. Yes he did say Logan was faster, but as shown after when Logan jumps on his back he easily knocks him off when he gets serious (he was holding back a lot before not trying to hurt Logan).
Thor blitz badly by Sentry when Sentry uses his speed.
Sentry is far faster than Invincible himself, and he's also more powerful than Thor. Same would happen to your team too. There is nothing wrong with being blitzed by someone more powerful than you.
Phoenix Emma who never use super speed, easily countered Thors best descending strike easy.
Now you're just throwing out random stuff. Anyone could have dodged that, a street leveler or anything. Thor had knocked Emma through the floor and then proceed to jump off it to strike Emma. He did use any speed so all he did was descend from the upper ground at normal speeds.
Blizt by Gladiator before he could counter.
Again Gladiator is faster than your team too, and the same would happen to them. Why don't you post what happened after Thor fought him again. Gkadiator got stomped bad.
Gladiator even admitted Thor was more powerful than he was.
I can go on for awhile on the speed inconsistency. Honestly a great debater I know by the name @killemall said it best.
You can continue, but so far I countered all your scans of trying to downplay Thor's speed. I don't even care what's been stated below from Killemall (no disrespect to him), but I've done good above to show otherwise.
In short, its well documented how inconsistent, and questionable Thor's combat speed is. We know he has FTL Travel speed, but so what? This is a fight, and he is being blitz by two beings who are FTL and use that speed in combat.
He's faster than light travel speed wise, and although his reaction speed, and combat speed isn't the highest, he's still quite fast. Invincible and Omni-Man may be faster than light travel speed wise, but they haven't shown reactions of that level.
Though not the best speed feat, Thor was able to beat Loki and Fenris down with multiple punches before they could strike back.
Or fast enough to easily deflect 3 blasts ( of different forms of energy) at the same time.
There is also the fact that Thor can throw Mjolnir at greater speeds than he could move himself which would greatly help in tagging the Vitrumites if he feels great difficulty in tagging them.
Like here. The lightning can stun them to set up another attack.
He could also just bull-rush them which worked on Death Seed Sentry who is faster than both your characters. Seeing as he's much stronger if he caught them, it would be hard for them to get loose, Given that he doesn't just simply strike them away hard.
Two problems. One is Omni man is a super genius at fighting. To say he will try to use the hammer or some crap is BS, and not in character at all of his fights vs beings. He never relies on anyone else weapons when fighting them, why now? Are my characters shown to be dumb? Hell's to the no. Omni Man as said earlier has been trained, with over 1000s of years of combat experience against all manner of super beings. He is well versed in powers, and even once took over a entire alien world (the Flaxans who have serious tech) while depowered in a alternate dimension. He rose to be a leader untill he got his powers back in that world. The guy is smart as hell. He leads the whole Viltrumite empire.
You overrate his battle prowess as he is a great fighter, but not a super genius of any kind. Even if he wasn't going to pick up Thor's hammer, there is still the fact that him being a "genius" won't come into play as he doesn't have any strategy that would make it so Thor loses. Knock away Mjolnir from Thor's hands? Thor could easily call it right back. That's pretty much all he could do with his battle tactical abilities. I looked at all those battle tactical smarts you've shown below, so tell me how does any of that come into play with someone like Thor who has no apparent weakness or so? They haven't really fought anyone like him, nor anyone as powerful as him (don't you dare say Thragg or Allen). So basically unless you can somehow show how it comes to use, they aren't doing much with it.
Second is the fact you SEVERELY underestimate the team effectiveness in this fight. 1 on 1 I still feel Omni Man or Invincible should win. together there chances are a heavy majority. The fact is there is two targets moving at speeds far faster than Thor is simply going to compete with. Even if he lands a few hits, it wont do that much, and the duo are landing tons of Sub Atomic damaging blows to Thor here. Dropping him in a matter of minuets truth be told.
Am I underrating or are you overrating like you always do when it comes to Invincible and co? You're ignoring everything shown here if you think either one of them is taking Thor out alone even though he out does them in every aspect bar speed. Their strength isn't even enough to make their speed all too threatening, so what are they really going to do? I've showed Thor strikes harder. I've showed he can take their hits, I've shown he has other means of attacking (lightning), and I've shown he has ways of getting around their speed. LOL! Sub atomic damaging punches? Really Cadence. The same guys who are bloodied by attacks which aren't even close to Thor's level of attacks are going to be sending out sub atomic attacks? Yeah, right. Thor will bash Omni-Man's head in right in front of Invincible. Might even show the boy what a real man and father is while he's at it.
By the way numbers doesn't mean much when you can't damage your opponents all too much.
Summary
I like how you stated "As a reader of Invincible too," like that means something here. I read Thor comics, own more than a few of them too when growing up, and nothing you said is accurate at all to how this match goes down. The duo here fought multiple viltrumites at a time fine, and beaten beings on pass there level like Power Plex, the Sequids, Conquest, and om cross overs dealt with beings like Pitt, Spawn, Witchblade, and Supreme.
Why do you always like to be a hypocrite? I'ved seen in your current Challenge A Viner with Lvenger and GhostRavage that you told Ghost you had knowledge on Hulk, so why when I say I have knowledge on Invincible you get all "like that means something here". Then you have the nerve to question my knowledge on Thor yet i've been stated to be one of the most knowledgeable people on this Vine with the character (on a different account). So don't tell me everything I said here is wrong. You wouldn't want me calling you out on your miscalculated and informed Invincible and Omni-Man feats.
You tell me of all the characters they have fought like they are anyone of Thor's level of power, he could do everything they did and more. All those guys were above your team? Well Thor is above them by far too so what makes them? Taking on groups of weaker beings than Thor isn't going to prove they can defeat him. Just saying.
There is nothing your bringing to the table they cannot deal with or contend with.
I can say the same for you.
My Advatages
- Speed
kills. My team can close the distance super fast, land many blows to your few, and attack from separate directions making it more impossible to react or block. Once my guys are in close combat, landing tons of blows, the ability to try to use Lightning or Hurricane sounds silly. he will not have the chance to summon it forth.My team has great battle smarts, very intelligent beings, and have top notch synergy.My team face variety of foes like Thor, some more dangerous, and survived. Thor is bringing nothing new here.
I'll stick with what I stated before your only advantages are speed and numbers and even that isn't enough. Speed and numbers as I said won't be enough if you cannot do too much damage to your opponent in the first place. Having battle smarts won't help when your team lacks the power to deploy them as Thor is simply too powerful for them. Also the only one who Invincible has fought that can be compared to Thor is Solar Man, everyone else is below him. Yes that mean Allen, Thragg, and Battle Beast.
Every other advantage goes to Thor.
I can tell you exactly how this fights ends.
Like this.
Omni-Man will have to witness his son have Mjolnir pass through his stomach.
@heirtothekingdom said:
That's not Thunderstrike, it's Eric Masterson. He's not the real Thor Odinson so you can't compare as he's less powerful, and skilled compared to the real one. Next time do your research because here is what happened when Eric tried to strike Thor. He couldn't even land a hit. Eric was in possession of the hammer at the moment too.
I can go on for awhile on the speed inconsistency. Honestly a great debater I know by the name @killemall said it best.
You can continue, but so far I countered all your scans of trying to downplay Thor's speed. I don't even care what's been stated below from Killemall (no disrespect to him), but I've done good above to show otherwise.
Dont wanna interfere too much on CAV but since my name is tagged and I don't even debate anymore lemme just leave this panel from Marvel Two In One Annual # 7. Because you are using one panel from the fight between Thor and Erick, a fight that lasted nearly 2 issues, a fight where Thor eventually goes bloodlusted and still is unable to beat him to suggest Thor is so much superior to him in terms of speed.
Champion, who by every measure, marvel handbook stats or feats is street level and this is what happened when they fought. I see stark resemblance, dont know about you\
"What wonderment is this? He evades my every blow"
Champion: "Your limbs possess incalculable strength Thurder Lord, but they lack the necessary speedand finnesse for the ring".
Here's a view from Tom Brevroot, someone I don't always put a huge stock on
Here's Jason Aaron's comment on his speed through Angela
"She's (Angela) faster than him"
Granted Thor was weakened and did not use his full powers in the fight, the speed argument was never re-addressed.
Here's another one from the editor
But yeah I think I have interefered enough I will take a leave.
Best of luck to both of you on the debate.
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