CAV: The Justice League (HA) VS The Z Fighters (P52)

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NeonGameWave

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#51  Edited By NeonGameWave
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Sy8000

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#52  Edited By Sy8000

@pope052: hey, sorry I haven't gotten back to you on this. I haven't had that much time to make a full post. I still want to do this, I just can't promise I'll be able to post in the immediate future.

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oblivion360

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@highaccuser: if you guys are still doing this can you tag me

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Pope052

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#55  Edited By Pope052

@highaccuser:

Just a reminder, can you give me a rough day for when you'd be able to post? It's not that i'm in a rush to continue this, but I have other debates that currently aren't responding (which should have been long finished by now), and I promised another to someone else.

Take your time, but a set time frame would be highly appreciated.

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Sy8000

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#56  Edited By Sy8000

@pope052: this weekend I'll try. If not then next weekend.

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JustSomeRandomKid

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Tag me for votes. Also, why use Teen Gohan but not Ultimate Gohan? Just curious.

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Albertphytagoras

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Tag me please.

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ancient_god

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CptMerc1

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This cav was on its way to being epic.

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Frisky4

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Sy8000

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#62  Edited By Sy8000

@pope052:

Well there've a bunch of DBZ battles lately which sparked my interest in DBZ, which reminded me of this. You don't have to reply if you can't.

Before I make a case for each of my characters and rebut some of your points, i'll explain my general overview of my team's battle stance in comparison to the Justice League's and who's advantages will be greater in the long run of battle. To cut straight to the point, i'd say that the overall nature of the Z Fighter's abilities should allow them to prevail as a team against the Justice League - what I mean by this is that they all share comparable attributes due to power being the decisive factor in terms of determining just how good they are at what they do. And in regards to the Justice League, they all have different abilities that emerge from different points of origin - thus i'm determined to prove the Z Fighters have chemistry and will operate better as a whole. Although this is merely an opener and I won't be detailing the majority of their powers here, as I plan for it to be broken up into separate posts.

I don't agree at all with this assessment. I understand that your characters are more similar to each other in terms of powers but that hardly seems as relevant an advantage as the years of experience my team has fighting alongside each other. 3 members of your team get along well with one of them (Vegeta) not really being a team player. Freiza has utter contempt for all of them except Bills, whose morals are unknown to me but seem pretty ambiguous. My team has no discrepancies working as one, are intimately familiar with each others tactics and methods and have developed many tactics to work with them. If I dug through some of my JLA stuff I could probably find something more specific but I think you understand the general idea.

Right off the bat i'll admit that Flash's essential speed and MM's phasing/intangibility/shape-shifting will pose as the prominent issues in my corner, I certainly don't deny that. However, i'm confident in most of my team's chances of being able to react to the possible speed blitzing strive from Wally and unleash the overwhelming offense once they're given that point of opportunity to attack. The three Saiyans should manage in stalling Wally and J'onn, Bills is going for a swift disposal of Clark and Diana, and Frieza's mainly focusing on Hal - once those three are taken care of, they'll all be able to gang up on the stronger two.

Likewise I admit that your teams destructive output is above that of mine and that will be a huge problem in a morals off environment, but it's not a significant enough issue to actually equate to my team losing in any way. Between Superman, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter, I have a general advantage in raw physicals, Bills being the exception to this. I don't see your team reacting to Wally at all actually, and none of your offensive abilities can't be compensated for in some way.

Now in terms of how you see the battles going, one thing I'd like to point out is that you don't really get to pick who fights who. If anything my team has that advantage. There was an issue of Kelly's JLA-I have no clue what the issue number was so bear with me here-that I read ages ago where the league explained they have a tactic called Fox Defense, which is where they switch enemies when they've been put in match ups that don't favor them which allowed them to quickly defeat a group of villains that was previously beating them. This seems like more than a possible option for the JLA to do, it's something they'd need to be pretty stupid not to do if things aren't going their way. Which isn't to say they won't. Even if my team does indulge in your matchups, things are still going our way for the following reasons:

  • The Saiyans aren't beating J'onn and Wally at all, or even stalling them significantly.
  • A morals off Hal is going to walk all over Freiza.
  • Bills can beat Clark and Diana, but not as quickly as you suggest and it's not enough/

Actually, i'd argue that a speed stealing attempt on any of the Z Fighters wouldn't succeed, and the reason being is that their movement speed (the same is applying for all of their abilities) simply isn't fundamentally based off of kinetic energy. Instead, their speed is tailored and attributed from their body's amount of Chi Energy itself. In fact, Vegeta even makes reference to this as his speed rose linearly alongside his boost of raw power:

This sort of logic doesn't really work at all. Just because there's some source of power enhancing a characters speed doesn't mean it doesn't come from the Speed Force. Amazo had the collective powers of a JLA that included Superman and Wonder Woman-two people whose speed is enhanced by external means and magical ones in Diana's case-and more notably to this topic Hal Jordan, whose speed is increased by his rings energy, something Wally certainly hasn't shown the means of stealing. Despite this Wally drains him just fine. I fail to see how Ki is different enough from these power sources in a way that keeps Wally from draining your teams kinetic energy, which is really all he's doing.

No Caption Provided

With Wally's speed-stealing/lending out of the question, Superman's speed doesn't not quite meet the same standard as any of the Z Fighter's needed to be able to land the effective speed-blitzes he performed in those showings. Several of those feats I wouldn't count towards a clear cut speed blitz feat for Clark either, as some don't match the definition or due to him having already achieved a significant speed/mass build up prior to the occurrence.

Either way, when I get to the relevant sections i'll explain why Superman is vastly outmatched by my guys in the combat speed department.

Wally stealing speed isn't out of the question at all, but even if it is, speed lending is still more than a viable option. Wally's done this often enough to suggest he can here, and I'm willing to say he could lend enough speed to make my team superior to yours in that aspect and still stay on top of everyone here in operational speed. As an example of him doing exactly that, when he went back in time and ended up fighting the Anti-Monitor, he decided to lend speed to the heroes that were fighting the Anti-Monitor at that time. He managed to not only do this in a way that was significant enough that the heroes had the upper hand against the Anti-Monitor, but he managed to stay at speeds too fast for any of the assembled heroes to perceive, including such people as Superman, Captain Marvel and Martian Manhunter, despite their present amps.

So I'm quite confident that Superman blitzing people here (Except Bills. Saying he'll be blitzing Bills is stretching it a bit I'll admit, but Wally can do that and I'll elaborate on that later) is a very viable option, and one that's actually shared by Wonder Woman, J'onn, and maybe even Hal. And I'm willing to take it a step further: even without the amps from Wally, Superman can possibly blitz members of your team. Not because he's so much faster than them, but because his track record of blitzing people whose speed is comparable or even superior to his own is surprisingly good.

The first example of this can be found in his famous fight with Wonder Woman during Sacrifice. Right off the bat as soon as Max Lord commands him, he speecblitzes Wonder Woman. Not only does he blitz Wonder Woman effectively, he does it for long enough and with enough speed that they've already gotten to the Sun by the time she manages to break his grip. Superman's speed isn't particularly better than Wonder Woman's, or at least it isn't significantly, so how exactly did he manage this? There's no stated reason, but my best guess is because Superman's movement speed outclasses his own reaction speed, letting him blitz people of his own speed caliber. Whatever the case, Superman is morals off in this fight and he's going to be using this kind of speed.

The other example is against Amazo. This is the same Amazo from the scan above who Wally stole speed from. Before fighting Wally, Amazo fought Superman, and actually seemed to struggle in doing so. Superman initially moved too fast for him to handle and Amazo was forced to resort to exploiting one of Clark's weaknesses. This is made even more impressive when you consider that this version of Amazo was fast enough to give Wally a high-speed beatdown in less than a second.

The third instance (Which should be enough for now, I think I've made my point) is simpler than the other two. Superman is fighting Bizarro, and he manages to fly a whole circle around Bizarro before he can move and promptly knock him into the water. Bizarro has been cited as Superman's equal in every regard, presumably including speed.

Regardless on whoever you plan on incapacitating, they all possess similar methods of escape via exerting their power:

I'd argue she can just block their blasts. She blocked a blast from Quantum Zealot, a being powerful enough to literally pluck planets out of existence and form a staircase out of them and later one-shot Superman. She looks unharmed by this blast. Note that Martian Manhunter, someone with more raw durability than Diana, is looking worse than her after the blast. That seems like a good testiment to how durable the Aegis are.

Instant transmission is a way out of this I admit and it would work even if their speed is stolen, but do Freiza or Bills have it? I don't think Freiza ever showed it...regardless this debate isn't all that relevant since they'll all have their speed stolen and if they don't she probably can't lasso them up, though I might argue otherwise later.

I don't see how tagging a bunch of apparent fodder with energy blasts translates into tagging five combatants that are quite faster than Hal is himself, to my knowledge at least. Even if it's true that Hal's blasts have been able to one shot Superman, that doesn't mean he can sustain an equal amount of power that is necessary to completely take out Superman in one go into multiple beams that disperse from a number of directions either.

If you think they're faster than Hal can tag then you'll have to prove it, because Hal has managed to react to Professor Zoom once during their fight, and Thwane was in the same storyline blitzing Jay Garrick whose speed is equal to Superman. I don't really see how making the blast wide would reduce it's power, but if it does there's no real reason as to why Hal wouldn't wise up and use a focused blast.

My main argument is to avoid as much of your punishment as possible and only tank it if left no other option but I believe they should be able to if it narrows down to that situation. While dropping Superman in one go is no easy feat, most of the Z Fighters have demonstrated better endurance than Superman and have handled continuously doing battle after tanking explosive damage that Superman has been felled by in the past. But like I said, i'm more focused on their combat speed allowing them to seize the speed-blitzing opportunity over Hal before he thinks of unleashing his blasts or generating constructs.

They aren't blitzing Hal if Professor Zoom couldn't do it, and Hal has more energy blast feats than the ones I provided which are enough to take down your team for good, especially since you seem to be putting Freiza, your weakest member, against Hal. I'll provide showings later.

Son Goku

Without a shadow of a doubt, Goku is easily one of the strongest factors on his team and will provide them with what they will need significantly well in the most relevant categories best suited to his abilities. He's the most versatile by a considerable margin and with that coupled with his physicals i'd argue that he's enough to give Wally amounts of trouble by himself. Now, as I vaguely mentioned before his purpose here is to keep the Martian and Flash busy w/ the help of the other two Saiyans and he has enough under his collar to live up to that - it may not be simple, but I believe it can be accomplished.

Care to provide evidence of this versatility advantage? Because Martian Manhunter is well known for his plethora of powers such as intangibility, invisibility, shape-shifting coupled with essentially the same powerset as Superman. Wally has speed lending and stealing as shown above and vibration as I'll get into later along with his speed. Hal's versatility is quite absurd and I'll elaborate later when I explain how he can use it to wreck Freiza.

Wally's got speed, there's absolutely no doubting that. However, I have done past research and correct me if i'm in the wrong, but from what I can recall the level of speed he's able to use in a pure combat scenario heavily depends on his moral state of mind. A moral less/mind controlled Wally's speed is difficult to match, but whilst in character he rarely moves at the speed of light or else he'll endanger himself by the speed force sucking him inside. That's just my two cents on the matter and either way, Goku has means of reacting to and tagging Wally thanks to Chi Sensing:

You are very wrong about this actually. There have been periods of time when breaking the light barrier gave Wally problems but he's gained upgrades since then like the Speed Formula and having been closer to the Speed Force than anyone before. Bringing up those versions of Wally is like me bringing up Vegeta losing to Zarbon as a low showing even though he immediately became more powerful and proceeded to stomp Zarbon.

And just to seal this point there are examples of Wally confirming that he can move faster than light. Like here when he's carrying Mirror Master along with him and Mirror Master's gun can't fire anything at Wally because all it does is fire beams of light which, as confirmed by Wally, are too slow to do anything at the speeds they were moving at.

No Caption Provided

There's also the scan I used earlier where Wally was stealing speed from bullets where he tied up the shooter before the light hit her eyes, which would require him moving than said light.

Now in regard to Goku being able to sense Wally, that's a fair point and I don't see why it wouldn't work, but I also don't see how it matters. Goku knowing where Wally is won't help if he can't actually do anything about it. Wally isn't going to be staying in one place and he has more than enough speed to avoid Goku's punches if they do somehow end up getting thrown wherever Wally happens to be standing. I just don't see how sensory abilities are helping Goku here.

Addressing instant transmission:

He was able to use it in time to dodge Cell's Kamehameha which escaped orbit in seconds for one - which is testimony to his reaction speed:

I've shown you Superman flying from Earth to The Sun in what looked like seconds (which is more impressive than going into orbit in seconds) and he's canonically slower than Wally.

Goku used it directly afterwards to warp behind Cell and struck him before he could react:

So your idea is taking Wally off guard with instant transmission? Interesting but I don't think that's going to work. During the infamous Tower of Babel storyline when someone tried to shoot Flash from behind he instinctively vibrated through it. Admittedly this backfired but only because the bullet was prepped so that would happen. Goku's fist isn't. The moment Wally feels Goku's fists on his hair he's going intangible.

No Caption Provided

Another example of this can be found here, where someone tries shooting Wally in the back of the neck and he unconsciously speeds up his reflexes. He does this so unconsciously he doesn't even know why time's slowed down until he feels the bullet on the back of his neck.

No Caption Provided

Just as Kid Buu's energy blast was within an inch of connection, Goku managed to utilize instant transmission at the last second:

This seems like standard laser timing. Impressive, but not terribly above the norm for laser timing. A version of Wally that's so much weaker than his prime version that comparing the two would be like comparing Saiyan Saga Goku to Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku was dodging volley's of lasers from Dr. Alchemy. I'll need to find the scan but I think Flash has stated blasts from The Philosopher's Stone move at the speed of light.

No Caption Provided

And even all the way from the Kai's Realm, Goku instantly ported behind Super Buu and sliced him in two with a Destructo Disk:

This isn't really any different from the feat against Cell which I've already addressed as not being enough.

On top of already possessing the senses to keep track of Wally and a quota of combat speed to at least spar with him, Goku will be using instant transmission to evade most of his powerful physical offense, keep an eye on and assist his team throughout the battle such as instantaneously saving them if they're in a tight situation and/or teleporting your team members directly into the line of a failed energy blast - likely even some of their own whenever possible.

Goku's going to have his hands way too full with J'onn and Wally to have the luxury of doing any of this. If Goku tries wasting time this way it's going to be over for him, and Wally's not an idiot nor is he not a team player. If he sees one of his teammates in the line of an energy blast he'll move them out of the way. Or Hal will block it from a distance. You've also yet to prove that your teams energy blasts aside from maybe Freiza are significant enough threats to my team.

Now I feel I should make clear just how big the speed disparity is with some of Wally's feats to seal just how outclassed your team is in this regard.

First we have Wally's fight with Professor Zoom. Professor Zoom is equal to Barry Allen or possibly even superior and has fought with him evenly from a speed perspective on several occasions. In addition to that, he's handily beaten Hal Jordan by virtue of pure speed when he lacked experience, overwhelmed and blitzed Johnny Quick, Max Mercury, and Jay Garrick while inexperienced. Later with experience he's ran right by Hal Jordan and Superman with them being stark unable to stop him. An early version of Wally who hasn't gotten some of the amps he later gets managed to match him evenly in speed after overcoming mental barriers. Later versions of Wally have stomped Thwane and gone as far as to move too fast for him to see, but I'll save those for later.

Later, Wally manages to roll under Thwane, run over to Jay and take off Jay's helmet before Thwane can do anything. He then trades blows with Thwane evenly.

Here's a simpler example of speed. Flash dismantles Mirror Master's gun in a Pictosecond with no signs of strain, indicating casual nanosecond level speed.

No Caption Provided

Here we have Flash's famous fight with the White Maritan Zum. Rather than focus on the value of the IMP (I'll do that later if at all), I'd like to focus on the level of speed Wally is showing in this fight. Specifically note how in the bottom left corner he says that he's taking "The long way around him". He then reappears behind Zum when he was previously in front. The implication here is clear: Wally actually circled around the whole globe just to get behind Zum without Zum even seeing him. White Martians are extremely fast. Wally himself even acknowledged this earlier in their fight. Other White Martians have feats like blitzing Superman from 200 miles away and blitzing the Justice League. They should all be as fast as Martian Manhunter himself, who's kept up with a bloodlusted Barry Allen in speed. It's very impressive Wally managed to dominate one in speed the way he did.

No Caption Provided

And my final example of Wally's overwhealming operational speed is during The Human Race, where Wally outran the explosion of Krypton. At first glance this is just an irrelevant travel speed feat but on closer glance this isn't the case. Wally is clearly swerving around the destruction to avoid getting his. He's also talking to Linda at these speeds and describing Krypton, so he can clearly perceive and understand his surroundings to the point of drawing conclusions about them. I've seen calculations for this feat that clocks it at massively FTL. I don't buy some of the math but for the debris of Krypton to reach Earth within the lifetime of Superman from a solar system too far away for us to observe, it would need to be propelled by an explosion much faster than light, but Wally is clearly faster than this explosion.

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Prince Vegeta

A method of protecting himself from these attacks is by telekinetically disembowling him from the inside out before he uses his phasing:

Does Vegeta have any telekinetic feats to suggest he could destroy something as durable as J'onn? Because I think it'd be a bit of a fallacy to say that telekinesis immediately ignores durability given he didn't break it out on Freiza or Android 18 or any number of people who stomped him. J'onn's durability isn't anything to laugh at either and you'll need more proof than Vegeta killing characters from Namek Saga of all points in time.

As an example of J'onn's durability, here he fights evenly with a bloodlusted Captain Marvel and manages to tank several hits. Billy even notes how dropping J'onn with physical force is difficult. Captain Marvel has physically stalemated Superman in fights and arm wrestles as well as fighting evenly with the JSA teambuster Black Adam and even getting the upper hand over him on the occasion, so punches from him while morals off are powerful to say the least.

Or if that's not enough to prevent Martian's intangibility assaults, he could convert him to dust:

It wouldn't really be enough to overcome J'onn's regenerative capabilities. With his shapeshifting and molecular control putting him down even by reducing his body to bits isn't really effective enough. Here Martian Manhunter literally regrows his entire body from a severed arm. This is a level of healing that really has no equal in all of fiction and is enough to make even the like of Wolverine pathetic in comparison. Vegeta doesn't have anything that's getting through J'onn's healing enough to really put him down.

There's also this instance where J'onn was turned into a pile of goop and still managed to heal himself. Even if I entertain these notions of your that Vegeta has the output to blow Martian Manhunter apart, I still wouldn't be acknowledging the even less-believable notion that just blowing J'onn apart is enough to put him down, or even bother him significantly.

No Caption Provided

But if Vegeta's fist gets caught inside J'onn, he could always blast him from the inside out similarly to how he defeated Zarbon:

This has been addressed along with your other point. Vegeta doesn't have the striking power to punch through J'onn and his energy output isn't blowing him up. Zarbon isn't on the same level as Martian Manhunter physically the same way no one from Namek or Freiza saga is.

Son Gohan

While Gohan is the least versatile on my team he is certainly comparable to the rest of the Z Fighters in terms of his raw physical abilities as well as his potential for power emerging whenever he gets angered makes him a strong going factor in combat against stronger opponents than himself - and with the disappearance of his morals I can certainly see him gaining the occasional edge over J'onn. The first demonstration of this was when Raditz was beating Goku into a pulp and Gohan's anger suddenly boosted his power sufficiently to cause Raditz actual damage - something both Goku and Piccolo couldn't do:

Impressive but these versions of Goku and Piccolo are some of the weakest ever and aren't near J'onn physically. Neither is Raditz for that matter. They don't have the feats to match J'onn matching someone on Superman's level physically while distracted. It's also not as if Gohan managed to knock out Raditz or anything.

He was able to gain a temporary edge by letting all of his rage out on Frieza, who was rather impressed at his brief display of power:

But when Freiza changed to his 3rd form he was too durable for Gohan to really damage in any way. And to be honest, you might be underselling J'onn a bit if you think just impressing 2nd form Freiza somewhat is enough to give J'onn major problems.

Gohan also managed to beat Frieza in a beam struggle albeit with some aid from Piccolo, it's still a credible feat:

Wasn't Piccolo more powerful than Gohan at this point though? I mean he fought evenly with 2nd form Freiza where Gohan needed to be enraged just to significantly damage him and Piccolo has more quantifiable blast feats than Gohan does, like killing Raditz and destroying The Moon.

Eventually i'll be able to show how the very best of Gohan's speed, striking and fighting skill will be a great help to the other two Saiyans whilst they're up against the more powerful Martian and the Flash. But again, this is merely basic stuff for the moment for everyone for this post and as I said every one of their peak powers and abilities will be exhibited to their fullest as we go along.

I don't see Gohan helping much at all, simply because the Saiyans are beyond help against Wally and J'onn. Wally's operational speed is vastly beyond their ability to match even if he's lending speed to his teammates. Instinctual vibration makes surprise attacks meaningless-in fact your team really has no way of touching Wally when he's vibrating so they're somewhat helpless in the face of just harming him. Martian Manhunter might just be too physically powerful given he's clearly on Superman's level in that respect and you'd need to prove your team is except Goku and Bills. His healing and shapeshifting make putting him down by any means your team has hugely impractical and as I'll go into later when he starts using all of his powers there are very few ways to effectively combat J'onn.

The Saiyans aren't holding off my MVPs. Plain and simple.

Lord Frieza

Although many would think otherwise, Frieza is actually up there on level with the likes of Superman and I intend to prove just that in this debate. Frieza's raw energy power and durability are easily his two dominant aspects than most of his other powers whilst being a decently versatile combatant himself. So for several examples of those two categories, in his 2nd Form his back was unscathed after Vegeta put almost all of his power into the blast attempt:

Also in his 2nd Form, Frieza has taken the best of what Piccolo can dish out and emerged only relatively frustrated:

No real nitpicking to be done with these feats. They're solid durability feats, but they aren't enough and I'll explain why later.

At his weakest and initial stage of power, Frieza effortlessly destroyed Planet Vegeta which consists of gravity akin to King Kai's Planet:

Conclusively for now, in his Final Form a simple finger swipe cut all the way through Planet Namek, which is bigger than the Earth:

When have either of these statements been confirmed? I'm not saying they're wrong but I'd like some confirmation. Regardless if you're putting Freiza against Hal I don't think these feats are really enough. Hal has contained a supernova, something which has destructive force considerably exceeding what Freiza can put out.

No Caption Provided

In the long run Frieza should be able to tank and send out energy blasts which rival Hal Jordan's, and you'll see much more on why later.

Freiza isn't tanking energy blasts from a morals off Hal, at least not a lot of them. Hal's blasts are powerful enough that he managed to blow a hole straight through Amazo's chest. This version of Amazo had the durability of Superman, Wonder Woman, and Flash with his durability well written (Wally was actually writted to tank a volley of blows from Amazo before going down in that issue) as well as a few other less notable characters. No offense to Freiza but he was cut to bits by a sword that couldn't pierce Goku's finger. He isn't going to be tanking this kind of damage and looking good afterward.

No Caption Provided

But the biggest thing that puts Freiza out of his league here is Hal's versatility. This is a morals off Hal, which gives him many dangerous options that Freiza, who is rather one-dimensional, has any way of countering. For one thing there's matter manipulation. Hal has noted that if he wanted to take down Superman he'd do it with help from kryptonite by making the kryptonite with his own power. This would require some form of matter manipulation to perform. In fact later in this storyline a rookie with Hal's ring does something ridiculous with matter manipulation but I'll save that for later.

Sorry if it's a bit hard to read.
Sorry if it's a bit hard to read.

Also in this scan Hal notes how after giving Superman a brief moment of fear, he'd be able to enter his mind and defeat him with telepathy. There are several instances of Hal and other lanterns displaying telepathy so this isn't just a one-time thing. This is yet another rarely used ability of Hal's that's going to come out in a morals off environment and Freiza can't counter it. Here's another example of Hal's telepathy where he uses illusions to hide from people watching just for reference. Hal is dangerous if he's morals off and Freiza can't contend.

No Caption Provided

Lord Bills

Now I'll admit that Bills is going to be a big problem, and that if Diana and Clark do end up fighting him they will most likely lose. That said, I think you're not giving them credit for the top tier durability and tenacity of Superman and Wonder Woman. I'll be arguing that they can withstand Bill's blow for longer than it takes for the rest of my team to dispose of yours (which will really not be that long).

Bills effortlessly speed blitzes and one shots Android #18 with an elbow to the spine:

Easily outmaneuvers Piccolo and two shots him with minor jabs of his chopsticks:

He casually swats away Majin Buu as if he were a fly:

And Bills quite literally spanks the Super Saiyan out of Gotenks, not as easy as it may appear:

How durable are these characters exactly? Specifically in comparison to Superman and Wonder Woman, who's durability is some of the best in fiction and unless I see evidence otherwise, Bills is going to have trouble putting them down.

For starters Wonder Woman has tanked a thermonuclear blast with no negative consequences. Those explosions contain 200 megatons of force.

And here she was smiling after a punch from Zoom moving at the speed of light that knocked her from Paris the Egypt.

These aren't even the best durability feats Diana has. And this isn't taking into account her pain tolerance. I'll pull up scans later but during two of her fights with Superman Diana had her bones snap or dislodged and had to relocate them during the fight but still managed to continue fighting for a few pages.

Superman's durability is also very well known but I'll post some of his feats here anyway, because I doubt the above characters that Bills stomped are as durable as Clark. For instance here where he tanks a punch from Etrigan that launches him to the Moon. Impressive given that Etrigan has stalemated Lobo and Wonder Woman in the past.

And here Superman tanks to no ill effect a punch from the Fortress Eradicator. To elaborate on the Fortress Eradicator's power, he's managed to pin down and physically overpower Mr. Majestic, who completely lacks any physical peers in the DBZ universe except people in Bills' tier. He has feats like dominating Captain Atom and regular Eradicator physically and rearranging the solar system with his own strength by moving all the planets-notably including Jupiter which is nearly the size of The Sun. Superman shrugging off a punch from someone significantly stronger than him is a very notable feat.

So I think that Superman and Wonder Woman can last out very well against Bills' striking power until his weaker teammates are disposed of. Once my team comes to their aid Bills is going down decisively against my whole team. My team still has the advantages against Bills to allow a victory over him. Hal is too versatile, Wally is too fast, and J'onn is tricky to fight with just physical means and energy blasts.

Conclusion

  • The only reason your team can even actually engage in a fight with mine is the notion that Ki enhancements powering up their speed counters Speed Steal when there's nothing supporting that conclusion.
  • If your team tries to pick favorable matchups they're going to fail. My team has much more experience working together and better teamwork that gives them control of the fight and already have strategies that counter the exact tactic you're aiming for.
  • Even if the matchups you envision happening occur, my team holds the advantages needed to win. Freiza is too one-dimensional to hold his own against a morals off Hal. Wally is too fast for the Saiyans and J'onn is too physically powerful, resilient, and versatile for them to compensate. Bills having the advantage over Superman and Wonder Woman is the only edge your team has and their durability is too great for that advantage to give them the win.
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Pope052

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#64  Edited By Pope052

@highaccuser: Actually man, now that I think of it I might just drop this one. As much as I'd love to continue debating the topic itself, I had gathered a whole lot of scans before for each character in particular that was time consuming, which I deleted based on assuming this wouldn't continue at all, and I'm unwilling to do the same again. Perhaps in the future some time we can get around to this subject again as it's certainly interesting, but if we do at all I would prefer to wait a while and start over completely. Was fairly good while it lasted though, a pleasure debating with you.

@saren@sc@jedixman don't mean to bother with this stuff but my OCD makes it impossible not to, would you mind locking this one up? I and my opponent would both appreciate it, thanks in advance.

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Frisky4

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INB4L

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Sy8000

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@pope052: Yeah that's fine. I didn't really expect you'd be able to continue with this anyway. I mostlu just wanted closure. Besides I'm starting to think I should've better familiarized myself with the characters you were using. This was definently good though.

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HellBlazing

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So, who won?

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Sy8000

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HellBlazing

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#69  Edited By HellBlazing

@hellblazing said:

So, who won?

No one.

That's lame. There must always be a victor.

I guess you won since he quit.

Good job.

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NeonGameWave

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This debate will never be forgotten such an amazing debate.

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DeathHero61

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This was probably the most epic CAV i have ever seen. Despite being late to the party.