Interesting battle. as far as tagging goes, not sure where the fault lies, but I never get messages anymore, when I'm tagged or people respond in any of my posts, is this a glitch?
@easternwind: Let me start by saying that Thanos is an immensely powerful being. Nobody can deny that, he's one of the elites of the Marvel U, and that is saying a LOT. I fully acknowledge how hardcore the mad titan is, with his bi-weekly hobby of conquering the universe and giving Silver Surfer daily beatings for lulz. He's a force to be reckoned with, that's for sure.
However, all that said, Son Gohan is a beast in his own right, and pound-for-pound I don't see Thanos overtaking him. Not that the titan won't give a more than flattering showing and push Gohan to his limits, but this super saiyan is an enemy unlike any Thanos has ever faced before. His combination of strength, speed, energy projection, martial skill, flight, and bottomless willpower all at once is something Thanos can not possibly be prepared for, and sooner or later, he will succumb to the strain and injuries of battle and fall.
It's proven time and time again that Gohan's inherit strength and natural talent for fighting far surpasses that of any other Z-Fighter, Goku included. As a toddler, he was already capable of not only surviving Piccolo's brutal training (which is a feat in of itself), but also thrived from it. For almost six months straight, Piccolo and Gohan spent nearly every waking moment of their lives sparring, and the Namek made it abundantly clear that he wasn't pulling any punches. Nevertheless, despite being at a clear disadvantage, Gohan still pushed Piccolo hard enough during their training that the Namekian's power level increased from over 400 to a whopping 3,500 by the time the saiyans arrived, an unprecedented leap in such a short time.
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Keep in mind, Piccolo at this point in the series was already a grandmaster level martial artist. He possessed centuries of battle experience from the memories of his father Piccolo Daimao, and showed himself capable of manhandling the world's greatest fighters without powering up at all by breezing through the preliminaries of the 23ed Budokai. During the tournament itself he defeated both Krillin and Kami, again without powering up very much, and matched Goku's martial arts skill in numerous clashes before eventually being defeated - not by a lack of skill, but by a lack of determination in comparison. He can anticipate attacks by reading ki, and referred to Goku's pressure point strike against King Chappa as an "elementary technique." The reason this is important information is because this is the guy who trained Gohan, and the basis from which Gohan's martial arts knowledge comes from.
This is advantage number 1 over Thanos; while his wisdom might not be up to par, the saiyan-human hybrid's sheer combat skill and tenacity will ensure that no matter what other factors are at play, Thanos will need to be on his top game the entire fight if he hopes to keep up. All it takes is a single slip up, and Gohan can turn the entire fight around in an instant. As a kid he would regularly fight on even ground with the fully grown elites of DBZ, often going into rages and attacking on sheer instinct, which surprisingly enough would prove to be the most effective method.
Vs Vegeta. Gohan is at first too scared to fight back, but after a pep talk from Goku, the five year old manages to hold off the saiyan prince for an extended period of time all by himself.
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Vs Krillin. Gohan and the former monk enter image training where they battle on a mental plane while meditating with the fight playing out in both their minds at the same time. Gohan is able to parry all of Krillin's attacks without being forced to strike back against his friend.
Vs Freeza. Gohan again goes into a rage and instinctively beats Freeza down despite the monstrous power of his second form. Freeza gets up relatively unscathed, but if anything this just furthers the impressiveness of this feat, as Freeza was way stronger but still outmatched by Gohan's moves.
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Each of the above fights come from Gohan at the age of five. Five. Just think about that for a second, all of these opponents are seasoned martial arts experts (Freeza included) with decades of experience, and Gohan is just a lil' babby.
This unnatural, natural ability is only compounded by the speed and power Gohan achieved in his Super Saiyan 2 state. If he could toy with PERFECT CELL of all people, who was the most powerful being in the whole universe at the time with the cumulative fighting skills of every single Z-Fighter, then I don't see why he can't dance around and block Thanos just as easily.
Not that Cell is as powerful as Thanos, but he's certainly quicker and more skilled. As part of "warm up exercises" Cell was able to fly from Earth into deep space in a few seconds, seemingly close to or exceeding the speed of light (considering how far away he was, after all the planet was the same size as him in perspective) and casually held a gigantic planet-sized astroid with one arm, then destroyed it.
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Yet this same Cell was unable to see or even injure Gohan at all.
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I think that says a lot. Speed matters a LOT, especially in DBZ. Thanos will be lucky if he manages to catch Gohan at all throughout the fight, and when he does (I say when because I won't go so far as to pretend that Gohan is untouchable) it's not like whatever damage he manages to deal will be fatal. Again Cell isn't as strong as Thanos, but he's strong enough. His fight with Goku made the entire planet rumble on at least two occasions, not with energy, but from pure physical strength.
At 45:50, Goku and Cell get into a grapple, and at 46:10 the force they're emitting causes the whole planet to begin rumbling.
At 56:00 Goku and Cell get into a punching contest which begins destroying the battlefield, and at 56:40 the announcer claims that this is making the whole earth shake.
So just to reiterate, if a guy like this at full power (he was heavily suppressed during his fight with Goku) was totally useless against SSJ2 Gohan, and Ultimate Gohan is several times more powerful than SSJ2 Gohan, then I'm pretty confident in the saiyan's ability to endure any damage he accumulates throughout his battle with Thanos, and if anything, he'll win by outlasting the mad titan in the end. This isn't getting into his asinine levels of will power, and it's disregarding his skill/speed. When we factor the two aforementioned advantages in, then it becomes clear Thanos is going to have his hands full putting Gohan down.
But of course, all the speed in the universe won't mean a thing if Gohan isn't powerful enough to stand toe-to-toe with Thanos. Luckily for me, he happens to be one of the strongest beings in the entire DBZ multiverse, as shown when he powered up to maximum after Pan's death, completely dwarfing Super Saiyan 2 Bra (who's comparable to Super Saiyan 3 Goku) and shocking everyone in the tournament and even making the Super Namek Gast Carcolh open up his eyes (up till this point, the only other time Gast opened up his eyes was when Vegito went Super Saiyan 3).
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In terms of pure strength, Gohan could probably injure Thanos in his Super Saiyan 2 state. In that form, he didn't just oneshot the Cell Jrs - he completely obliterated them all.
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It's completely out of order, but the illustrations are all that matters in this case
This means that Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's karate chops are more powerful than a fully charged Final Flash from an enraged Super Vegeta, as the Cell Jr Vegeta fought easily caught and threw away the prince's most powerful technique during their battle.
As for Cell himself, he didn't fair much better against Gohan's strikes. One full-power kick from the Super Saiyan 2 pretty much obliterated Cell's insides, and caused him to actually regurgitate Android 18.
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Remember how the shockwaves caused by Goku and Cell's attacks shook the planet? Well it should go without saying that the air pressure and vibrations caused by a punch can't even come close to rivaling the power of the actual strike itself, meaning Goku and Cell were probably hitting each other with planet busting strikes throughout the course of the fight, and while Goku was forced to bow out, the entire battle was just Cell goofing around. Against Gohan, not only was he fully powered, but he was in the Ultra Super Saiyan state, with drastically increases the physical strength of the user at the cost of speed. So all in all Cell's durability at that time should have been well beyond planet busting, in fact I doubt a planet busting attack would do much damage to him at all by that point, yet Gohan nearly oneshotted him.
This, coupled with his ability to obliterate Cell Jrs, and also the fact that he was superior to Goku at the time, all paint Gohan as having the physical strength to shatter entire planets. I know Thanos's durability is above planet level, but Gohan as a teen could probably still harm him, let alone what Ultimate Gohan would do. Granted, fist fighting someone like Thanos is never a good idea, but so long as Gohan's strikes are supplemented with some well timed ki blasts, he should eventually win the day. As a toddler, Gohan was able to do THIS on sheer reflex.
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Granted, I don't think an attack like this would do much to Thanos, but it's still impressive considering context. At the age of six after learning how to control his energy a bit more, Gohan was already a casual planet buster, shown when he erased the Makyo Star from space.
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Let me just reiterate that because I think it might go right over most people's heads given how planet busting is a basic requisite for powerhouse characters. But Gohan is a special case.
He was a planet buster.
At the age.
...
Of six.
This kid's a monster. And I haven't even fully fleshed out his Super Saiyan 2 power, let alone Ultimate. In the end, Gohan just has too many advantages over Thanos. Speed and skill are just the tip of the iceburg, Thanos's strength is pretty comparable to a Super Saiyan 2, and I doubt he's much more durable than Gohan. The destructive power of all DBZ character's is just ludicrous, and if all else fails, Gohan always has his will power to fall back on.
@nickzambuto: @serrure: Yeah, I was out o state let a friend to watch the house, but he " didnt notice" the mold spores growing out o my g*ddamn wall ,,,
Eh, S**t happens as they say, Im working rom my laptop. would be nice to get it up while your still one, and I may , but I wont be able to respond tom. anyway, il be able to respond the next day , Almost done with my post
@easternwind Hey c'mon, I was looking forward to this!
I have mold in my house, SO I have been in a hotel, but I will have my post up tonight
Ooh, I know what that's like. My bad.
Alright I am just about finished with the post, But I really want to read it over, i have to go out for a couple hours, so as soon as I get back I will post it up for you.
Its gon' be worth it Its a good post, And I still have a lot of extra for the next one.
My bad on the delay, but like I said before, some real life troubles, been havin issues like that for the last few weeks, after today or so my schedule should be nice and clear to finish out this and my other debate.
Nice opening for Gohan, a good shoing of his early abilities, though I disagree with the conclusion that it shows he is stronger than Thanos in his SSJ2 form, claims like that should at least be saved until later, we cant really make informed comments on who is stronger for this debate until we show off that strength.
Thanos The Mad Titan
Intro :
Basics:
Thanos is a villain from the Marvel Universe. His power is immense and he has stood against some of the most powerful beings in Marvel. He has used his vast intellect to obtain many items and execute various plans. Today he will not be using any of that. Here Thanos will be using his own power to fight the warrior from Dragonball. Thanos is a powerhouse who uses everything he has to establish himself as a cut above the rest.
Feats, and Power:
Thanos has a long history of his might, and here I will go through some of his showings in this area. I will be going through some of Thanos feats, just to give a basic Idea of what he can do. Keep in mind I have other feats in all of these areas and more which further show his immense power, especially in some areas, but it would not be fun to hop right into the true power that Thanos has yet. So lets start.
Strength and Striking power:
The first aspect we will be going into is Thanos' huge physical power, able to dish out hits and take hits from the best powerhouses in the Marvel U. Lets start off with some quick feats from Thanos in this area.
Firstly:
Here has 2 powerful bricks coming at him, both are insanely strong and extremely durable . But The Mad Titan does not block, he does not dodge, or even cock back and haymaker them with all his might. He slaps them:
Both of these guys are easily Class 100+ High level strength characters, but Thanos swats them away
This shows both Thanos immense strength, and also how tough he is to be able to stop a full on attack from these guys.
Sorry about the words, the version I could find said an explicative, unfit for this. Pretty sure he says " Dont touch me fools"
Next off we have another feat, this one shows Thanos' strength, and his ability to take and stop attacks from legitimate beats in the physicals department.
Here you have hulk and thing attacking him and he is able to treat them like small children:
As under rated as thing is , Ben is still a force to be reckoned with, Firstly he has an AMAZING will and is able to fight through almost anything, even if he loses in the end, so the fact he gets taken out with 0 dignity is a very good showing for Thanos, and with him is the Hulk, who Thanos has slapped/punched away on multiple occasions.
Hulks power is known, but thing himself is powerful in his own right, he has knocked over a living black hole, he held back a planetary attack, he has fought hulk, given Namor multiple hellish fights, etc. He is and always was the strongman of one of the greatest teams of superheros, even if he isnt the strongest there is.
Now, this is a good feat on its own. However, you also have to take into account the 2 or 3 other Class 100++ in the area, other people with super speed, a mystic and a telepath all also in this battle:
Here Thanos is able to land a hard hitting blow on champion who has planetary physical stats in all areas and is one hell of a powerhouse:
This guy has embarrassed people who themselves are planetary powerhouses, but Thanos is able to do damage to him.
And as I said these are just some of Thanos feats in this area, he has many more above and on this level. As of now , I feel I have shown a good level of Thanos' power. Also, of note is that none of these are Thanos full power, not only in the sense that he has done better, but in power wise, as he is not at his fullest when these happened and has become stronger since.
Thanos has other assets in this fight as well though, such as...
Blasts of Phenomenal Cosmic Power:
Thanos has use of high amounts of energy. He can use this energy is dozens of different ways depending on what he needs to do, and has immense cosmic power.
With much more as we go on, I will now show a taste of the kind of power Thanos can dish out.
This powerful Iron Man "Doppleganger" is easily blasted by an attack from Thanos.
Thanos Reacts to a Speeding herald , and stops him in his tracks:
Now, I havent gone into too much detail on this section and I will expand on it in the next post
As of now I am not saying any of the above would be badly hurting Gohan, Just to give a basic idea of what Thanos can do.
Durability and Damage Soak:
One of Thanos good aspects is his durability, Here again are some basic feats from Thanos in this area:
Surfer comes in and attacks Thanos. Thanos is easily able to take the full power blast from surfer head on and is undamaged, aside from some clothes burnt off:
Next, one of Galactus most powerful heralds hits him with a huge blast and again he is unharmed aside from his clothes:
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Here Hulk jumps and punches Thanos but Thanos is able to not only stop him casually with one hand, but he sends him flying himself , a feat of durability, strength and more.
Conclusion:
There is much more I wanted to get too, But I have been having some problems in real life. The stuff that I posted should at least be enough to get a discussion going. I feel I have shown why Thanos stats are extremely impressive and enough to be taking blows and dishing out extremely painful hits in return.
@nickzambuto: Got my post up, Sorry for taking so long and if its a little small / not to packed out, I was working on my laptop away from my normal computer. Its just a bit of an intro into who and what thanos is and can do. I am sure we will get into a more heated back and forth over the next few posts, Cant wait.
@nickzambuto: Notifications have been giving me issues, just in case you didnt get it I have my post up , ready for round 2, I already have much of the stuff for my second post ready
@easternwind: though I disagree with the conclusion that it shows he is stronger than Thanos in his SSJ2 form, claims like that should at least be saved until later, we cant really make informed comments on who is stronger for this debate until we show off that strength.
I'm not an expert on Thanos, but I believe I know enough about the character to confidently gauge his limits. That said I do not think Gohan is stronger than him at SSJ2, just strong enough to injure him. By comparison, a Super Saiyan 1 probably wouldn't even make Thanos budge.
Still, that's quite the compliment to Thanos considering the immense power of a Super Saiyan 2. Even during the Buu Saga after seven years of sitting on his ass basically halved Gohan's power, he was still physically strong enough to go toe-to-toe with Dabura the demon king, who was so strong that he was able to part the ocean and split canyons apart just by the gust of wind created from casually waving his hand hundreds of meters away.
Think about that for a minute. There are people in real life who can shatter wood and bricks with their bare hands, yet I don't see any human coming close to affecting even something as fragile as tissue paper just from wind pressure. So for Dabura to chop up small mountains/plateaus with ease, it really says a lot for just how strong his actual punch would be. In fact, it's been stated that Dabura is much stronger than characters like Supreme Kai (who could kill Freeza in one punch), Piccolo (who destroyed an island just from the shockwaves caused by his punches), and Super Saiyan 1 Goku (self explanatory), so it really goes to show how powerful Gohan is considering he had Dabura completely outmatched after going Super Saiyan 2.
Then Dabura powered up further and became much stronger than Perfect Cell, yet Gohan was still able to fight on par with him, with the two creating massive shockwaves with every attack.
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So even a weaker Super Saiyan 2 is still very strong. Thanos is strong too, but he'd still better watch his back.
Here has 2 powerful bricks coming at him, both are insanely strong and extremely durable . But The Mad Titan does not block, he does not dodge, or even cock back and haymaker them with all his might. He slaps them:
Both of these guys are easily Class 100+ High level strength characters, but Thanos swats them away
Thanos was wearing the Infinity Gauntlet when he did that. Admittedly he had restricted his power to all but one of the gems in order to put on a show for Death, but the one gem that he was still using was, lo and behold, the Power Gem. He shattered Captain America's shield in that same scene with that same slap, and that's not something Thanos is normally capable of, so clearly he was empowered. I wouldn't put much weight into that feat if I were you.
Drax isn't a 100 tonner anyway, and if he is then he's in the lowest tier.
Here you have hulk and thing attacking him and he is able to treat them like small children:
This is very impressive, but I don't think Thing (or Drax for that matter) are any stronger than maybe Ginyu Force level max. Sure they tussle with the Hulk every now and then, but for the majority of the time, they aren't powerhouse characters. Oozaru Gohan had a better lifting feat than either of them during the Saiyan Saga when he picked up a gigantic boulder that was almost the same size as himself, and obviously Mystic Gohan wouldn't have any trouble dispatching his five year old Oozaru counterpart just as easily as Thanos dispatched Thing.
Now Hulk is another beast entirely, but IIRC he was in his "Professor Hulk" incarnation in BOTH of those instances where Thanos beat him. Hulk might be capable of punching through dimensions and all that jazz on his best day, which would make Thanos stomping him very impressive, but for Professor Hulk none of those feats are valid. At best, Thanos showed his superiority over a character who held up a mountain during Secret Wars. That's nothing to put him over Gohan, characters have been shattering and getting punched through mountains since the Saiyan Saga, and by Freeza they've upgraded to entire islands.
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Speaking of Freeza, he seems pretty durable amirite? I mean Goku kicked him hard enough to pretty much shatter multiple islands, and then he got up totally unfazed. He's also able to tank planet busting attacks, like numerous blasts from Vegeta and Goku, the Spirit Bomb, and then later the destruction of an actual planet from it's surface, WHILE cut in half with zero ki left. So the guy can clearly take a beating!
Well, whereas Thanos beats up Professor Hulk and Co., Gohan in his BASE form completely OBLITERATED Freeza with a single punch during the movie Fusion Reborn.
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Admittedly Fusion Reborn isn't entirely canon, not to the anime nor the manga, but it's still worth mentioning considering obliterating Freeza is way more impressive than overpowering the Hulk.
And to think, I haven't even fully gotten into Gohan at his maximum yet. Again all things considered I really don't think the strength gap between Gohan and Thanos is large, assuming it exists at all. With that in mind, Gohan's advantages in most other fields (speed, energy, will, skill, durability, versatility) should carry him to victory.
Now, this is a good feat on its own. However, you also have to take into account the 2 or 3 other Class 100++ in the area, other people with super speed, a mystic and a telepath all also in this battle:
Thanos is only fighting Hulk and Thing in that scan.
Here Thanos is able to land a hard hitting blow on champion who has planetary physical stats in all areas and is one hell of a powerhouse:
Landing a hit on someone doesn't make you stronger than them or even anywhere near as strong. After all, Gohan tagged Beerus... once, and Beerus is way above Champion.
Thanos has use of high amounts of energy. He can use this energy is dozens of different ways depending on what he needs to do, and has immense cosmic power.
With much more as we go on, I will now show a taste of the kind of power Thanos can dish out.
Unfortunately none of those feats surpass planet busting level, a wall Gohan surpassed when he was five. I won't go into each feat individually because I feel the feats I presented in my first post already overshadow the ones for Thanos.
As of now I am not saying any of the above would be badly hurting Gohan, Just to give a basic idea of what Thanos can do.
Alright, but just to give you an idea of how strong an energy blast needs to be in order to affect Gohan, here's a scene from Multiverse where Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta fires a fully charged Big Bang Attack straight into Gohan's hands when he is caught completely off guard, and Gohan is able to effectively overpower the blast without getting a scratch on him.
A pause then occurred, and the two Saiyans turned to Gohan. Uub and Pan, who were on either side of Gohan, began to look at him as well. This made Gohan a little uncomfortable, and he suddenly began to feel heavy. "That door is our only way out, Gohan." said Vegeta suddenly, holding his arm out in Gohan's direction. "You had better protect it." "Vegeta, what are you doing!?" asked Goku while Vegeta continued to accumulate more power. Vegeta ascended to Super Saiyan level two and a ball of energy began to form in his hands. "Pan!" Shouted Gohan. "Get out of the way fast!" For the first time Pan saw a seriousness in her father that she had never seen before. "Big... Bang..." Vegeta began. "Gohan!" Goku screamed. "Attack... !" Vegeta finished. The blast crashed into the hands of Gohan, who cried out as it hit, surrounding himself with a near translucent white aura. Gohan should have been knocked back by the sheer power of the blast, but his support was not in his feet, and he began to levitate to remain on the spot. His glasses shattered and his shirt tore apart around his body. The ground shook as the shock wave of the blast made two trips around the room, and an explosion of light surrounded the area. In spite of the amount of power, Gohan effectively stopped the blast. Apart from two yards of rubble left in the blast's wake, there was no damage, and smoke rose off of Gohan's unscathed hands. Gohan had not been hurt at all by the blast; there was no blood or even a single scratch on him.
I don't think I need to explain how powerful Vegeta is. He was a planet buster as far back as the Saiyan Saga, and even if you don't trust his statements of being so when facing Goku (I don't see why you wouldn't, considering Goku can sense ki and confirmed it himself that Vegeta was going to destroy the planet, if not he would have just dodged the blast instead of countered it) I'm still using anime versions here, meaning he has his feat of effortlessly destroying planet Arlia and it's moon with a finger.
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Do I even need to say how much stronger Multiverse Vegeta is compared to Saiyan Saga Vegeta? Okay, here I go...
After the Saiyan Saga Vegeta received a major Zenkai boost on Namek to the point where he could stomp characters who previously would have stomped him, then he got another Zenkai and stomped a character who stomped him when he was strong enough to stomp his previous planet busting self, then he got yet another Zenkai which again allowed him to stomp characters who would have stomped him in his previous state (Jeice), and before leaving Namek he received two more Zenkais on top of everything else, trained under enhanced gravity for three years straight to put his base form above Goku's, became a Super Saiyan multiplying his power by 50, got stomped by Android 18, who was weaker than 17, who got stomped by Imperfect Cell, who wasn't half as strong as Semi-Perfect Cell, who got stomped by Ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta, who got stomped by Perfect Cell, who got stomped by Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, who would have been stomped by Buu Saga Vegeta, who then received a monstrous power boost from the Majin, numerous Zenkais throughout the course of the saga, then trained for 5 years until Beerus, briefly surpassed Super Saiyan 3, trained for five more years, met Uub, then trained for 10 MORE years until FINALLY we get Multiverse Vegeta.
And that is a very brief summation of Vegeta's power evolution. And he still couldn't make a scratch on Gohan.
Also it's been confirmed a couple times (from Cell's mouth as well as an official guidebook) that any character above or at Super Saiyan 2 level is solar system busting, and Vegeta is way stronger than the average Super Saiyan 2.
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Anyway onto durability.
Surfer comes in and attacks Thanos. Thanos is easily able to take the full power blast from surfer head on and is undamaged, aside from some clothes burnt off:
Surfer is notorious for holding back more than almost any other comic book character.
Next, one of Galactus most powerful heralds hits him with a huge blast and again he is unharmed aside from his clothes:
Impressive, but does that herald have any feats to put him passed even Saiyan Saga Vegeta? If not then, well...
Here Hulk jumps and punches Thanos but Thanos is able to not only stop him casually with one hand, but he sends him flying himself , a feat of durability, strength and more.
That's not durability, Hulk's attack never connected.
I think I'll wait for you to write up a more proper argument before continuing with my piece, I don't want to waste feats when they could be used as counters to whatever the heck you have planned for Thanos.
@nickzambuto: Awesome, I am going to see if I can reply on my friends Tablet, If I cant then I will reply tomorrow, as I have another post to put up once I have access to my computer.
@nickzambuto: ( on my phone just happened to see this, wont have internet for much longer ) Sorry, I have had some more real life Issues, I wasnt really able to come on here at all, I just got back to normal ness, I just saw this checking my phone while I could come on for a bit. I will be trying to get to this and my other debate over the next few days. Looking forward to getting back to it.
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