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#1 Edited by Pope052 (3087 posts) - - Show Bio

Broly & Sephiroth:

Defenders - Reikai (as Broly) & Floopay (as Sephiroth):

VS:

Goku & Dante:

Defenders - Pope052 (as Goku), & NeonGameWave (as Dante):

Battlefield:

Conditions:

  • GT Super Saiyan 4 Goku, and Legendary Super Saiyan Broly.
  • Everyone is at their Full-Power.
  • No Prep, nor Prior Knowledge (aside from the two Saiyans).
  • Morals On, but Fighting at their best.
  • Win by Death, or KO.

Challenge A Viner Rules:

  • Votes are only counted with at least one reason.
  • No starting extra debates, posting scans/videos, or correcting either of us on anything (however if you must do so, do it in a P.M).
  • Regular posting/commenting is fine.
  • As always, may the best team win.

Online
#2 Edited by Pope052 (3087 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave @reikai @floopay

Look good? Let me know if any of you would like anything altered. Anyway, i'll offer to make the first opener.

Online
#3 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@neongamewave @reikai @floopay

Look good? Let me know if any of you would like anything altered. Anyway, i'll offer to make the first opener if you three would agree with that.

Its amazing, I`m really looking forward to this, I wouldn`t find if you were to go first anything that works for you.

@princearagorn1@cjdavis103 @carter_esque @nickzambuto @slimj87d @wyldsong @god_spawn @deranged_midget_ @nighthunder@colliderz @s0n_of_d3adp00l @ghostrider2 @_cerberus_@all_mighty_beyonder @lvenger, I think you will be will interested in this upcoming epic tag-team match-up!

#4 Edited by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be interesting.

#5 Posted by Lvenger (19128 posts) - - Show Bio

This does look like a really good CAV worth keeping an eye on. But I didn't see rekai and Floopay agree to this on the Challenge a Viner thread. It'd be weird if you just set this up without their consensus on the matter lol.

And I take it @pope052 will square off against @reikai whilst @neongamewave goes up against @floopay?

#6 Edited by Pope052 (3087 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave:

I'll have the post up either later on, or tomorrow for certain mate.

@lvenger

This does look like a really good CAV worth keeping an eye on. But I didn't see rekai and Floopay agree to this on the Challenge a Viner thread. It'd be weird if you just set this up without their consensus on the matter lol.

And I take it @pope052 will square off against @reikai whilst @neongamewave goes up against@floopay?

I'm not sure whether they were already discussing the match-up with @neongamewave or not, perhaps he could clarify but I assume they have considering he already knew what characters that are involved and the users defending them.

Yeah, that's the concept that we're hopefully planning to go by with Goku taking Broly and then Dante taking on Sephiroth.

Online
#7 Posted by Jgames (1678 posts) - - Show Bio

Seem awesome and somewhat a mismatch, but I just wait and see

#8 Posted by reaverlation (15270 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool match.Break a leg y'all :)

#9 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16646 posts) - - Show Bio

Sure I'm interested, looks awesome :)

Do your best.

#10 Posted by colliderz (1634 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks cool really liked the match up

Good luck for all of you :)

Online
#11 Posted by Stupid_People (1248 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been looking forward to a formal Reikai vs Pope, i'll be keeping an eye on this. Good luck to you all.

#12 Posted by GhostRider2 (3279 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks good.Good Luck.

#13 Posted by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@neongamewave:

I'll have the post up either later on, or tomorrow for certain mate.

Cool, take your time :)

@lvenger

This does look like a really good CAV worth keeping an eye on. But I didn't see rekai and Floopay agree to this on the Challenge a Viner thread. It'd be weird if you just set this up without their consensus on the matter lol.

And I take it @pope052 will square off against @reikai whilst @neongamewave goes up against@floopay?

I'm not sure whether they were already discussing the match-up with @neongamewave or not, perhaps he could clarify but I assume they have considering he already knew what characters that are involved and the users defending them.

I was mostly bringing forth the idea of the concept but I really do plan on bringing this to reikai`s attention, I`m pretty sure he would already be a confirmed involvement considering his history with CaVs its more about getting @floopay involved.

Yeah, that's the concept that we're hopefully planning to go by with Goku taking Broly and then Dante taking on Sephiroth.

#14 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: I don't think Dante is going to be taking Sephiroth anytime soon. So I doubt that's a very fair debate.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#15 Edited by Pope052 (3087 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay:

I don't think Dante is going to be taking Sephiroth anytime soon. So I doubt that's a very fair debate.

@neongamewave, thoughts?

Online
#16 Posted by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave: Looks good, and @pope052, you are representing one of my favorite anime characters, so I full well expect you to rock it=)

#17 Posted by Albertphytagoras (1792 posts) - - Show Bio

This will be Epic.

However Reikai is going to make Broly look like a golden saint.

#18 Edited by Chibi_cute (4509 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh well its just basically goku and broly.

During the fight that snowy mountains would get flattened by the shockwaves of their fists.

goodluck to both.

#19 Posted by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@floopay:

I don't think Dante is going to be taking Sephiroth anytime soon. So I doubt that's a very fair debate.

@neongamewave, thoughts?

I highly disagree, being a fan of both Dante and Sephiroth being a follower of both FF7 as well as DMC, I can say with full confidence that Dante is going to be the one to overpower Sephiroth he already defeated a Sephiroth tier level being during DMC 1 by the name of Mundus.

#20 Posted by Pope052 (3087 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave:

Oh, well then this should be undeniably interesting considering both you and @floopay's confidence in your respected characters. Also, i'm in the process of my post as we speak and it will definitely be finished by tonight, so stay tuned mate.

Online
#21 Posted by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@neongamewave:

Oh, well then this should be undeniably interesting considering both you and @floopay's confidence in your respected characters. Also, i'm in the process of my post as we speak and it will definitely be finished by tonight, so stay tuned mate.

I agree and awesome, really looking forward to seeing your opening argument as always, I know your going to bring forth something mind blowing :)

#22 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@wyldsong said:

@neongamewave: Looks good, and @pope052, you are representing one of my favorite anime characters, so I full well expect you to rock it=)

I agree, this is going to be something special, @pope052 is also debating for one of my all time favorite anime characters or just overall all time favorite characters ever and I know he will do Goku justice :)

#23 Edited by Pope052 (3087 posts) - - Show Bio

@carter_esque: @lvenger: @jgames: @reaverlation: @princearagorn1: @colliderz: @stupid_people: @ghostrider2: @floopay: @wyldsong: @albertphytagoras: @chibi_cute: @neongamewave: @reikai:

At last, let's finally kick start this debate. Assuming that i'd be primarily debating against @reikai, then it's Broly that i'm going to focus on for the most part of the debate.

Also due to the fact I have vague knowledge on Sephiroth, and I know absolutely nothing about Dante (which thankfully doesn't matter, as @neongamewave is my partner and will more than compensate for that weakness).

With all of that being said, @reikai let's begin. All sugar-coating aside and being completely honest here, Broly would get diminished by a Super Saiyan 4 Goku in the first instant of the battle. That of which I will prove with as much detail as I can muster to put in this very post.

Now, of course you can and will still state your defense. However, I know without a shadow of a doubt that you'll rely heavily on one particular feat. The feat itself is inherently flawed, and contains misconception after misconception.

I'm of course referring to none other than,

Broly's "Galaxy-Busting Feat"...

Ah, the infamous "galaxy-busting" (yes, quotation marks) feat that has been used to rank Broly up to ridiculous proportions that is generally done to overrate the character for god knows what reason. Commonly called, Brolypotence.

Before I can refute the feat, we'll have to analyze the context of it first. Firstly, did Broly actually destroy the Southern Galaxy? Evidently, Broly did in fact destroy the virtual entirety of the Southern Galaxy. However, people are passing this off as if Broly one-shotted the Galaxy.

Which the answer there, is an irrefutable no. It showcases the galaxy fade into darkness piece by piece, which leads onto the fact that the destruction of the Southern Galaxy was a sped up time-lapse for the sake of the plot.

Secondly, the Funimation English Dub was an incorrect translation from the original Japanese Movie. That of which originally, stated the following: "The Southern Galaxy has fallen under Super Saiyan attack".

Therefore, the galaxy was under attack and in the process of being destroyed over a long period of time. Yes, Broly eventually did destroy the Southern Galaxy, but he wasn't even close to doing so with a single blast as people claim.

However, don't get me wrong just yet. Broly may not be a certified galaxy-buster but at the minimum, Broly is a Multi-Solar System+ Buster. Why? There is considered to be billions of Solar Systems in just one Galaxy, so evidently for Broly to have destroyed the entire galaxy over an annual process, he'd have to be busting at least millions of Solar Systems per year.

Therefore classifying Broly as a Multi-Solar System+ Buster to say the least, but that's all that Broly could muster with each powerful Ki Attack.

Moving onto to your likely next argument, which are Broly's victories:

  • SSJ Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks, Gohan, and Piccolo.
  • A SSJ2 Gohan, and SSJ Goten & Trunks.
  • Android 18.

Big woop, right? Now, let's see who Broly couldn't beat:

  • An amped (w/ 4 Kis) SSJ Goku, who defeated him with one blow.
  • SSJ2 Goku, Gohan, and SSJ Goten.
  • SSJ Trunks, Goten & Krillin.
  • SSJ2 Goku & Pikkon.

I'll concede to Goku, and Gohan both being Super Saiyan 2 in the beam struggle. Also when Broly was beating on a Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (while struggling to do so). Although, i'm only taking your word as you have never provided legitimate evidence that they were Super Saiyan 2 when it was asked for.

You made the claim it was stated in the Daizenshuu that both were SSJ2 but the character designers simply forgot to add the lightning aura yet provided no evidence for it and your only somewhat form of evidence brought to the table was character designs along with fan-made translations.

But nevertheless, to give credibility to your case i'll concede that Broly defeated a Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, but then again he was beaten by Goku & Gohan in Super Saiyan 2 same-fold which you have to consider.

Lastly, i'll counter a third possible case you may or may not provide:

Broly's Ki is Limitless...

A vehemently fallacious argument which is based off of a misinterpreted statement from the Funimation Dub. What was stated in the original Japanese Movie, was "My Ki is rising, it's overflowing!":

There was absolutely no indication nor statement along the lines of "My Ki is limitless". That's a completely fan-made fallacious assumption. If you watched the rest of that video, it explains it notably.

Broly had been restrained for the most part of his life and there was no proof of him ever turning into a Super Saiyan, let alone a Legendary Super Saiyan.

Exerting that amount of power at once would evidently cause Broly's Ki to release and overflow. Again, you and I saw nothing that even implied that Broly's Ki never stops growing. Besides even if you were right, that doesn't aid Broly at all in this fight and certainly didn't stop this from happening:

Call it a plot-device if you will, but it happened. Also, Goku didn't reopen Broly's "stab-wound" either so don't bother to touch off of that argument.

From all of that and factoring in everything else that I didn't include about the character, the absolute best we've seen Broly accomplish is take a Super Saiyan 2 with slight difficulty. With that being an utterly meaningless feat to compare to a Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

Anyway, that's enough about Broly. It's Goku's time to shine, but ultimately he doesn't even need to go Super Saiyan to take Broly. As in GT, his Base Form would be more than sufficient. Before I elaborate on that though, let's consider how Broly would fare against Super Saiyan 3.

Super Saiyan 3:

Firstly in order to compare the two, we need to consider Broly's best feat. That of which is handily beating a Super Saiyan 2 Gohan with only a partial amount of difficulty. Gohan held his own, but ultimately Broly was the clear superior:

Keep in mind that even though Gohan was virtually outmatched, he could still take a couple of blows from Broly and managed to break out of his grip by kneeing him in the face.

Next we see Gohan also as a Super Saiyan 2 (just like in the fight with Broly) & Supreme Kai attempting to hold off Majin Buu. Except in this fight Gohan cannot hold his own nor take a couple of hits from Buu like he did from Broly.

Gohan goes down after one blow, and it's done:

Then when Goku is in Super Saiyan 3, he handily takes Majin Buu throughout their fight. Not to mention, Goku was only stalling for the entire fight. Later admitting that he could have easily beaten Buu if he chose to:

From all of that, Goku in SSJ3 was merely stalling with Majin Buu who effortlessly one-shotted a SSJ2 Gohan, who Broly had trouble with. Clearly Broly already wouldn't stand a chance as it is against Super Saiyan 3 Goku, who excels Super Saiyan 2 Gohan a good four times over, and SSJ2 Gohan is the best opponent Broly could defeat.

Yes that's ABC Logic, but that's DBZ for you. It works that way, feats don't adequate the power of the character as shown on countless occasions. Broly has nothing on Super Saiyan 3, and Goku's only flaw is the Ki-Strain but he would finish Broly off long before it takes it's toll.

Now we will move on just to showcase the utter ease Goku in SSJ4 will have in this battle, let's advance to GT Goku starting with his Base Form.

Base GT Goku:

This is where things for Goku truly excel. If you still aren't convinced (which is a likely scenario) that Broly would lose to a Super Saiyan 3 because of "feats", then let's play the feats card and i'll still demonstrate that Goku trumps Broly by them as well.

Before I get into the particular feat we need to analyze one more thing. In the battle with General Rildo, Goku stated that Rildo's Ki was more powerful than Majin Buu's. Now, it was evident that Goku was referring to Kid Buu. However, for the sake of your argument we'll assume that he was referring to Fat/Majin Buu:

It was surprisingly difficult to find the episode of which he stated the above on YouTube, but at least I found this scan. In case you don't believe me, this is the instance of which Goku stated that Rildo was more powerful than Buu, trust me on that.

If still you're not convinced, I can find the very episode and link you to it along with telling you the exact time it's stated. However, I think you'll take my word for it.

Regardless of which Buu that Goku was referring to, all of them are Super Saiyan 3+ Tiers (Majin Buu being slightly below, Kid Buu being equal, and Super Buu being above). Therefore, Goku fought a Super Saiyan 3 worthy opponent in his Base Form.

What makes it more impressive, is the fact that Base Goku literally toyed with Rildo until he released his concealed power. Anyway, the moral of the story is that Goku's Base Form in GT was undeniably equal (if not a tad bit more powerful) to his Z Super Saiyan 3 Form.

Therefore, elaborating my point on Goku not needing Super Saiyan at all to handily beat Broly. Also considering he wouldn't need to worry about the Ki-Strain while in Base.

Now, let's get onto that feat I was indicating earlier on that of which massively exceeds Broly's "Galaxy-Busting" feat. In Base Form, Goku could use a harnessed Kamehameha which still contained enough power to break through and destroy a dimension:

Although I cannot recall the name of the dude alongside him, he stated "He's got enough power in that little body to light up an entire galaxy!".

While I know that "light up" does not necessarily mean bust, considering that Goku clearly wasn't exerting the maximum Ki that was within his body, Goku evidently could have put the full amount of his Ki into the blast and therefore validly labeling him as a certified Galaxy-Buster in his Base Form.

Moving on, we need to consider Goku's following transformations:

Transformation:Image:Description:
Super Saiyan
Multiplying Goku's Base Form at a grand total of fifty. Even if Goku couldn't pull off a Galaxy-Busting Kamehameha in Base Form, going Super Saiyan would more than enable him to be considered at least a Multi-Galaxy Buster.
Super Saiyan 2
Doubling the power of Goku's Super Saiyan Form (X100 Base). Evidently, doubling the output and labeling Goku beyond the tier of Galaxy Level.
Super Saiyan 3
A whole new world of power compared to the previous SSJ Forms. It multiplies the power of Super Saiyan 2 four (X8 SSJ/ X400 Base) times over. Goku would be closing the gap between him and the Universal scale of power.

Even if I was to super low-ball Goku, he would still be labeled (at the absolute minimum) a Multi-Galaxy+ Buster due to his feat in Base Form and the total multiplication of four hundred. While albeit a ridiculous underpowering of Goku, it still trumps Broly's feat by an enormous margin.

Even if Broly one-shotted the Southern Galaxy, that feat would still hold very little to no value against a Multi-Galaxy Buster who is restricted to the absolute pinnacle of the minimum of his capabilities.

And guess what? We aren't even finished! Goku still has one last transformation that makes all of which I have already stated on Goku's case look like a joke. That of course being, Super Saiyan 4.

Super Saiyan 4:

Ah, I can almost feel the power. Super Saiyan 4 is not just four times Super Saiyan 3, nor six and not even eight for that matter. Super Saiyan 4 adds up to a spectacular ten times that of a Super Saiyan 3. I'd be surprised if Broly could even withstand the Ki Burst from Goku so much as transforming into this behometh of power.

I previously stated that GT Super Saiyan 3 Goku would be approaching the universal tier due to the amount of power that he would exert externally and would already be far beyond the tier of Galactic level so the next measurement of power for Goku would be approaching the Universal scale.

I don't blame you if you still aren't convinced, but that's where Super Saiyan 4 comes in. With all of the power within Goku in Super Saiyan 4, he was able to stand up to Omega Shenron.

Now, Omega is not only considered a Universe-Level threat but also a universal powerhouse by both the Kais. Omega himself also stated that he could waste the universe with the minimum of his power. Evidently, he could potentially one-shot it if he exerted his full-power:

Granted, Goku was ultimately outmatched but he still achieved the feat of blasting through Omega Shenron's body with a Kamehameha and then destroying it with a Super-Dragon Fist. Which increases the validity of my claim of SSJ4 Goku being at least Nigh-Universal level.

Goku was literally able to blast through Omega's Ki Durability, which would require a blast ranging from at least Nigh-Universal to the exact Universe-Busting margin itself considering that Omega himself stated he could waste the entire universe at his minimum:

Therefore even if we're only putting Goku at the absolute minimum of his capabilities, busting galaxies would be an utter joke to him at this rate. Even if SSJ4 Goku is not on the Nigh-Universal scale, he is still well beyond the Galactic-Level, which is a league Broly cannot hope to reach in a million years.

Conclusion:

The absolute best that we've seen Broly do is defeat a Super Saiyan 2, which I already have stated and proven is an utterly useless feat to try and compare to Goku on this high of a level. Broly has not shown the ability to omit a galaxy-buster with one blast, but Goku in Base Form has demonstrated enough power in a harnessed Kamehamea to do so.

Broly would absolutely be at least a Multi-Solar System+ Buster. Which isn't even close to a billionth of SSJ4 Goku's output. In other words, a max power Ki Blast exerted from Broly wouldn't even be noticed by Goku.

All in all, while it may be fun to debate the topic all that Broly is, is severely overrated. Goku could literally sneeze the second they begin battle, and turn Broly to ashes unintentionally.

Online
#24 Posted by HyperViper97 (1342 posts) - - Show Bio

:D I'd completely forgotten non dbm Broly feats. Nice opening

#25 Edited by reaverlation (15270 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 brought his DBZ/GT game.Great opener :D

#26 Posted by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

Good opening shot=)

#27 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@floopay:

I don't think Dante is going to be taking Sephiroth anytime soon. So I doubt that's a very fair debate.

@neongamewave, thoughts?

I highly disagree, being a fan of both Dante and Sephiroth being a follower of both FF7 as well as DMC, I can say with full confidence that Dante is going to be the one to overpower Sephiroth he already defeated a Sephiroth tier level being during DMC 1 by the name of Mundus.

I'd like to see that showing. Sephiroth is not susceptible to any of Dante's weaponry, he's immune to time manipulation, and he can throw out millions of tons of force with his TK on a whim. The only person who stood half a chance against him was Cloud, and that wasn't because of how good Cloud was (though Cloud is very powerful), it was moreso how much he wants to prolong Cloud's suffering. Dante lacks that advantage.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#28 Posted by Marshall_Long (1923 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, some good characters in this CAV.

#29 Edited by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: At full power, do we mean their strongest shown, or do we mean at their maximum power (using feats only to support the statement).

Because I have a few hundred more feats for Sephiroth if it's at his maximum power level than him at his strongest shown.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#30 Posted by Chibi_cute (4509 posts) - - Show Bio

great opening.

#31 Posted by DeathHero61 (5917 posts) - - Show Bio

Good luck guys. Im not a fan of powerscaling for DBZ, but its not my call. I'm still wondering how does dante stand a chance against sephiroth though. Can't wait to see the argumentation.

#32 Posted by reikai (4182 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052:

Before I can refute the feat, we'll have to analyze the context of it first. Firstly, did Broly actually destroy the Southern Galaxy? Evidently, Broly did in fact destroy the virtual entirety of the Southern Galaxy. However, people are passing this off as if Broly one-shotted the Galaxy.

Which the answer there, is an irrefutable no. It showcases the galaxy fade into darkness piece by piece, which leads onto the fact that the destruction of the Southern Galaxy was a sped up time-lapse for the sake of the plot.

However, as has often been noted and indicated numerous times, that assumption is utterly false and proven false continuously across these forums. But I will reiterate why.

1st: For the galaxy itself to spin noticeably to our perceptions would mean that tens of millions of years were passing by in order for such a mass of celestial bodies to move in tandem, something that we (the viewers) could never actually perceive. And we know quite well that neither Brolly nor Goku are millions of years old. Which means the idea that the Galaxy is spinning is False. Which to us means the Camera was turning, not the galaxy.

2nd: King Kai's reaction to the event was Immediate. Which indicates it Just Happened, and did not occur over a long period of time. If it had, he never would've noticed, and instead would have been told something was amiss by South Kai, rather than seeing it for himself. It is only when something truly phenomenal occurs that King Kai would take notice on his own. After all, he wasn't even aware of the presence of Cell until Goku went to his planet to get help finding the Nameks. In fact, King Kai was asleep when Goku arrived.

3rd: Claiming the Dub is wrong is not accurate. The wording is different, but the message is still the same. Not only this, but we see a Visual Representation of what occurred. No amount of miswording can take away what We have actually just witnessed. That's like witnessing a ten car pileup and the news only saying there was a minor accident on the freeway. We know what we saw even if they don't give all the details.

4th: Continuing on with the Translation, the line "fallen under Super Saiyan Attack" has more than one meaning. The Japanese Language is very complex and it's difficult for Translators to accurately show the meaning behind what is being said. However, those who claim the galaxy-busting is false use the term "fallen" as if to mean that the galaxy was still under attack the whole time. They tend to miss, or outright ignore, the fact that the term also means that the Galaxy is already gone, that it is not simply under attack still, but wiped out. Defeated. Destroyed. The assumption that it was an ongoing assault has no bearing given all the previous evidence.

Conclusion: The Galaxy Busting stands as it always has. And using "Debunking" Videos by others filled with spitefulness and complete bias is not a favorable idea. One should always use their Own Arguments and Logic.

Sub-Note: As has often been said by me and others, not only is this event still True and cannot be refuted, but that at this time, Brolly had been in an Underpowered Form. During this time he was under Paragus' control via the Control Circlet, which doesn't just keep Brolly in line, but Restricts his power. At highest he could manage a Restrained SSJ Form, which is only a small portion of his full ability that could not be used until the Circlet was destroyed. So not only did Brolly destroy roughly 99% of the Soutern Galaxy, but did so when at a fraction of his full strength.

I'll concede to Goku, and Gohan both being Super Saiyan 2 in the beam struggle. Also when Broly was beating on a Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (while struggling to do so)

He wasn't struggling. He was toying with him, the same as he did in Movie 8 against the whole team.

You made the claim it was stated in the Daizenshuu that both were SSJ2 but the character designers simply forgot to add the lightning aura yet provided no evidence for it

Evidence was provided. Ignoring the evidence does not mean it does not exist. And that is not something for a CAV debate.

but then again he was beaten by Goku & Gohan in Super Saiyan 2 same-fold which you have to consider.

No, because as we are all aware, Brolly was defeated by Plot Devices in both films. The first being Goku's "Miracle Punch" as a last minute write in by the Writers because they made Brolly too powerful. The blow worked because they made it work, thus called a Miracle.

1.

an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

2.

such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.

In essence, the Writers gave Goku the power to win because he otherwise could not win due to the massive disparity in power. The same is true for the 2nd film when it was clear that Goku, Gohan and Goten working in tandem were still far below Brolly in power to be able to challenge him. There was no way for Trunks' weak energy ball to interfere with Brolly powering up his attack, and yet it did so and continued to do so, even after Trunks had already lost consciousness. Once more a "Mirac'e occurred. There is no way in which is should or could have worked, but the Writers made is so because otherwise the Heroes would lose and that'd end the series.

A vehemently fallacious argument which is based off of a misinterpreted statement from the Funimation Dub. What was stated in the original Japanese Movie, was "My Ki is rising, it's overflowing!"

Not true. Only partly relevant, but the truth being it was written in Brolly's character biography that openly stated that the longer he remained in his Legendary form, the more powerful he would become. It is not the misinterpretation of a statement made by the character, it was made Legitimate by the company, and thus cannot be refuted. In fact this same information is reiterated within the game releases themselves when showing the character biographies. Even so far as Budokai Tenkaichi 3, which is approved by Funimation and Bandai Entertaiment. Meaning that the Information is Canon, and Brolly's continuous increase is legitimate fact.

Conclusion: This is not some fanmade power. It's a legitimate ability given to him by the writers and the companies that hold rights to the character.

Anyway, that's enough about Broly. It's Goku's time to shine, but ultimately he doesn't even need to go Super Saiyan to take Broly. As in GT, his Base Form would be more than sufficient.

Unfortunately, there are things that you are remiss about. That being that the assumption that GT Goku is automatically leagues stronger than his DBZ counterpart is, point of order, a complete falsehood. Given that GT is non-canon and considered a completely separate continuity altogether, it cannot be said that GT Goku has any relation to his counterparts abilities beyond namesake. Their relevant strength was never stated, and GT as a series failed to prove any such standing

From all of that and factoring in everything else that I didn't include about the character, the absolute best we've seen Broly accomplish is take a Super Saiyan 2 with slight difficulty.

One of the biggest faults I see with virtually all arguments such as these, is the idea that the SSJ Forms are Statuses of power, instead of the Abilities that they really are. They're just that; Abilities. Claiming superiority or inferiority based on Ability Increase is completely and utterly foolish. Claiming a SSJ loses to a SS2 based solely on the Ability is absolute foolishness. We know for certain that all these transformations do is increase the strength, speed and power of the user, collectively referred to as their "Power Level" or "Battle Power". And by now we all know the math.

Super Saiyan: 50x Base

Super Saiyan 2: 100x Base

Super Saiyan 3: 400x base

Super Saiyan 4: 4000x base

The base starting level is more key than the increase the ability grants. An example is such;

Saiyan A has a PL of 50,000

Saiyan B has a PL of 400

Saiyan A can use the Super Saiyan transformation

Saiyan B can go as far as Super Saiyan 4.

Saiyan A's maximum power is 2.5million

Saiyan B's maximum power is 1.6million

Saiyan A wins despite Saiyan B having a higher ability increase.

And thus is how much of the series worked once the introduction of Power Levels were made. However, GT gave no such figures and never referenced those of its original counterpart. And the Only value ever given to a GT character was to Omega Shenron in "DBZ Battle Taiken Kamehameha", published by Bandai, which labeled his Power Level at 1.9billion. This figure was never contested or argued against by any of the other developers or company owners. Which means, as far as the entire series is concerned, this is the only Official power rating GT has ever given to a character. So meager is it, that it casts a deep shadow across all of the GT franchise.

We all know that against O-Shenron, a SS4 Goku was being beaten quite handily. That being the case would clearly indicate that GT Goku's Battle Power and ability is far, far below that of his Original Self in DBZ. Those claiming that GT is stronger because it's "In the future" fail to realize the error in that logic. That is the same as someone claiming Future Gohan is stronger than Teen Gohan, simply because he's 20yrs older. Despite the fact that Future Gohan was killed by Android #17 and #18, with Mirai (Future) Trunks stating that the Androids in the past were somehow stronger than those in his future world.

This same sense and logic applies and explains the differences between DBZ and DBGT. Similar back story does not mean equal power. The evidences therein and Official figures given show quite solidly the truth behind this. Not only is GT Goku not stronger than Goku was in DBZ at the end of the series, but GT Goku is in fact vastly weaker than his original counterpart.

Before I get into the particular feat we need to analyze one more thing. In the battle with General Rildo, Goku stated that Rildo's Ki was more powerful than Majin Buu's.

This is also another failing that has doomed many a GT (and dbz) debater. Hitching upon a Character Statement as evidence. Such has no backing in fact and no supporting evidence. Not only this, but it wouldn't matter if such a statement was true for the GT-universe, because as has been shown and made evident, that the GT variations of the characters are much, much weaker than their original counterparts. Which makes such statements completely useless.

In Base Form, Goku could use a harnessed Kamehameha which still contained enough power to break through and destroy a dimension:

This is yet another false claim of power. Goku did not destroy a dimension. The Pocket dimension itself was collapsing. What Goku actually did was create a pathway for them to escape, and nothing more. Which should've been a completely pointless maneuver since we know Instant Transmission can cross dimensions anyway.

There are scores of characters across all of fiction that can create pocket dimensions, cross dimensions and so forth, but it does not make them dimension/universe busters. Nor would I say that it would make them capable of killing Goku. Not without their other abilities measuring up to the task.

For example; in the Slayers anime, Gaav destroyed an entire dimension containing the physical manifestation of all the Water Dragon King's knowledge. Which was Infinite. However that doesn't make him a universe-buster, and his other showings wouldn't set him on Goku's level.

Although I cannot recall the name of the dude alongside him, he stated "He's got enough power in that little body to light up an entire galaxy!"

Another of those rather meaningless statements. Especially given that the ability to "light up a galaxy" is not equivalent or anywhere near equivalent to the power necessary to actually destroy one, much less damage it. And once more, it is just a character statement with no evidence to back it. If they had shown something like what was in the DBZ movie "Fusion Reborn" when Vegeta and Goku fused into Gogeta, then that would at least have been something, if just for a visual showing. However, no such thing was ever shown nor indicated, making such statements pointless hyperbole.

Even if I was to super low-ball Goku, he would still be labeled (at the absolute minimum) a Multi-Galaxy+

Given all the previous evidence noting the vast disparity in GT's power in comparison to its original self, such assumptions to GT Goku's power is nothing more than that; a baseless assumption. The truth of the matter, as it has always been, is that there is no evidence to support such claims, nor will there ever be.

Not only this, but those fan images are pointless. Especially since SS2 was completely left out of the GT series, and they just mashed SS1&2 together as indicated in the Rildo fight when Goku stated he could become 100x Stronger, which Rildo would confirm after Goku turned Super Saiyan. But since we know the integers for SSJ and SS2 are different, it meant Goku was SS2 despite the lack of spikier hair and the electric aura.

Goku was literally able to blast through Omega's Ki Durability, which would require a blast ranging from at least Nigh-Universal to the exact Universe-Busting margin itself considering that Omega himself stated he could waste the entire universe at his minimum:

Again, baseless, exaggerated assumptions. Nothing even remotely indicates O-Shenron at being nigh-universal, much less universal, in power or ability. In fact, we do not even see planetary ability from these figure. O-Shenron's status as a "Threat" is due to his Negative Force that would gradually erode all Matter in the universe. It is not an immediate effect, it's a Gradual thing that would take an enormous amount of time. Making it a rather moot issue in a battle scenario, especially compared to figures who possess actual destructive force on a grander scale.

The Conclusion here is thus: GT Goku is simply out of his league. There is simply no evidence to suggest he could stand in the same league as Brolly. Brolly holds his own canon, much like GT is its own canon. The difference being that Brolly performed an unparalleled feat of power that has neither before nor since been replicated in any of the media. Which would indicate that his Continuity is of a higher standing of power than even the Original Canon, until the introduction of "Battle of Gods".

GT has more holes in it than John Murphy did in the Original Robocop film. The writers tried to combine elements of the early Dragonball series with the excitement of DBZ, but failed to mesh them correctly, because Toriyama's early work in the series centered more around Fantasy and Magic, while the later periods became more Sci-Fi, and GT spent much of its time in Space, thus trying to lean on a Fantasy element was completely impossible in that setting.

Not only this, but GT Goku's abilities were bunked often. Such as being made into dancing puppets by the Para Para brothers, and even in SS4 was cut by glass when knocked through a store window. Something that didn't even happen in the DBZ film "Lord Slug" when Goku was knocked through the front of a store. There is also the fact that his SS3 form in GT was completely useless, because his childlike body isn't developed enough to make use of it, so his stats didn't increase at all and it was just a waste of energy. Elder Kai helping to regrow his tail was supposed to help with this, but it made no difference other than to push him to SS4, which itself requires another form of energy; Blutz Waves.

However, even with blutz waves, if his own ki is drained, he can't assume SS4 at all, much less even use Instant Transmission. But that is another matter made irrelevant by the fact that it doesn't matter what form GT Goku uses as his actual showings and listed power aren't enough to contend with Brolly.

And now for some light entertainment, given all the non-formal posters.

#33 Edited by Pope052 (3087 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai:

I finished scanning through your post, and I must say you do have considerable points standing for Broly. I'll shred it up tomorrow the first chance I get, so be expecting a reply around then.

@neongamewave @floopay

So, who will post first in both of your side of the debate? I'm looking forward to seeing what Neon has in stock for Dante and the same goes for Floopay. Both sides are notably confident in their respected characters, so i'm sure that there should be good things coming from each side.

Online
#34 Posted by Iragexcudder (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: @reikai: My face right now is priceless. Unbelievable to say the least, I'm loving this. You two are doing outstanding so far

I can't wait to see what @Floopay and @NeonGameWave have in store here!

#36 Posted by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave

Here, basic overview:

The One Winged Angel Himself

Oh, and by the way, RESPECT THE BLACK MAGES!

Overview of his abilities

Sephiroth, the One Winged Angel

  • Superhuman Strength - Sephiroth has immense strength. After running some math, it becomes clear Sephiroth could easily be Class 100+. He has thrown several hundred pounds over 50 meters and through several feet of steel/concrete effortlessly. He's also held several hundred pounds at the end of his 7 foot sword with one hand effortlessly for about a minute or so, with zero signs of strain. But more importantly, he impaled a giant snake on top of a huge tree, unknown as to how much effort he put into it, but it was done by him, and it was ridiculous. His greatest feat of strength puts him in the 60-100 ton range minimum.
  • Superhuman Durability - Sephiroth has been struck several times by fire magic capable of destroying large steel structures without showing any signs of physical harm. He has also been thrown through several floors of steel, and stood at point blank range for a wave of heat strong enough to melt the steel beneath him without any visual signs of harm. Sephiroth has blocked an all out attack from Cloud, which was capable of leaving a 1-2 foot deep crater in the steel structure he was standing on, and showed no signs of strain across his body. He has been thrown through several floors of steel and concrete and emerged completely unharmed.
  • Superhuman Speed/Reflexes - Capable of blocking attacks from multiple sources effortlessly, as well as keep up with Cloud with zero difficulty. He can cover vast distances in a moments time both on foot and in flight.
  • Master Tactician - Sephiroth was capable of manipulating Shinra, Cloud's party, and pretty much everybody within the entire Final Fantasy franchise. Almost everybody became subject to his will at one time or another.
  • Genius Intelligence - Sephiroth was always a brilliant mind. He was capable of reading Hojo's entire library in a few weeks. After this, he falls into the lifestream and begins absorbing knowledge from there.
  • Phasing - Sephiroth can phase through solid objects, both in and out of flight.
  • Teleportation - Sephiroth can teleport both short range and long range distances, and has been known to do so in order to ambush his opponents.
  • Telepathy - Capable of reaching into a person's mind and trapping them, as well as other people, in that nightmare. He has done this feat once.
  • Illusion Casting - Capable of projecting illusions of individuals.
  • Invisibility - Via Illusion casting, he can make himself and others completely invisible.
  • Telekinesis - Sephiroth was able to collapse an entire steel/concrete structure with the wave of his hand.
  • Weather Manipulation - Sephiroth was able to turn the weather from sunny, to a full on storm with the flick of his hand.
  • Rain Darkness - Sephiroth can make clouds of darkness rain from the sky in order to conceal himself and obstruct his opponents vision.
  • Soul Energy Absorption - Sephiroth can absorb the corrupt souls of individuals after they have passed, or just plain absorb soul energy in its raw form if he is exposed to it.
  • Soul Manipulation - Sephiroth was able to create a powerful disease to infect the planet, and consume them more and more as their wills grew weaker and weaker. This was called Geostigma, as these people died Sephiroth was able to absorb them.
  • Natural Magic - Because of his extended time spent trapped within the lifestream, Sephiroth can cast most magic without the aid of materia.
  • Force Field Projection - Sephiroth can conjure immense, near impenetrable force barriers.
  • Astral Projection - Upon death, Sephiroth may project himself into the afterlife and continue to exist as an individual. He may also do this when he is living, but must abandon his vessel to do so.
  • Conjuration - Sephiroth created the three Remnants of Sephiroth, with one of them (Kadaj) to act as his vessel when he returns (because Cloud's party destroyed him in FF7). This is useless in combat, but hey, why not?
  • Long Ranged Attacks - Sephiroth is capable of cutting through several feet of steel from a distance with a single attack.
  • Weapon Materialization - Sephiroth can conjure the Masamune into his hands.
  • Flight - Sephiroth is capable of extremely fast self-sustained flight.

Midgar Zolom

The Midgar Zolom is about 6 feet at it's thickest (based on Cloud's height), and about 110 feet long (based on Cloud's height again). Based on the average cobra weight I found (0.0451 ounces per cubic inch), this thing would weight 121 tons.

Just a quick overview of abilities.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#38 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay said:

@neongamewave said:

@pope052 said:

@floopay:

I don't think Dante is going to be taking Sephiroth anytime soon. So I doubt that's a very fair debate.

@neongamewave, thoughts?

I highly disagree, being a fan of both Dante and Sephiroth being a follower of both FF7 as well as DMC, I can say with full confidence that Dante is going to be the one to overpower Sephiroth he already defeated a Sephiroth tier level being during DMC 1 by the name of Mundus.

I'd like to see that showing. Sephiroth is not susceptible to any of Dante's weaponry, he's immune to time manipulation, and he can throw out millions of tons of force with his TK on a whim. The only person who stood half a chance against him was Cloud, and that wasn't because of how good Cloud was (though Cloud is very powerful), it was moreso how much he wants to prolong Cloud's suffering. Dante lacks that advantage.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

I`ll prove it as being indefinitely true very soon, Dante`s weapons have harmed more than just demons, spirits and hell lords its crushed many types of beings who are even made out of dark void energy just like Sephiroth is, an Omni Slash affected him, I don`t see how Yamato or the Sword of Sparda wouldn`t be able to. Dante doesn`t need teleportation because Dante is faster and has teleportation. Dante also possesses telekinesis without it he`s easily been able to force back easily hundreds tons of force. Cloud is pretty much like a plot device he acts as the light to Sephiroth`s darkness and Cloud is nowhere near Dante`s level either, Mundus is a hell lord who is above even Marvel`s very own Mephisto and Blackheart, so I don`t see how Sephiroth stands a chance but you did bring up really good points!

#39 Posted by Beware_My_Power (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread... this freaking thread... just made my day... tag me when your done!!! I wanna see the debate for this! :3

#40 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

@floopay said:

@neongamewave

Here, basic overview:

The One Winged Angel Himself

Oh, and by the way, RESPECT THE BLACK MAGES!

Overview of his abilities

Sephiroth, the One Winged Angel

  • Superhuman Strength - Sephiroth has immense strength. After running some math, it becomes clear Sephiroth could easily be Class 100+. He has thrown several hundred pounds over 50 meters and through several feet of steel/concrete effortlessly. He's also held several hundred pounds at the end of his 7 foot sword with one hand effortlessly for about a minute or so, with zero signs of strain. But more importantly, he impaled a giant snake on top of a huge tree, unknown as to how much effort he put into it, but it was done by him, and it was ridiculous. His greatest feat of strength puts him in the 60-100 ton range minimum.
  • Superhuman Durability - Sephiroth has been struck several times by fire magic capable of destroying large steel structures without showing any signs of physical harm. He has also been thrown through several floors of steel, and stood at point blank range for a wave of heat strong enough to melt the steel beneath him without any visual signs of harm. Sephiroth has blocked an all out attack from Cloud, which was capable of leaving a 1-2 foot deep crater in the steel structure he was standing on, and showed no signs of strain across his body. He has been thrown through several floors of steel and concrete and emerged completely unharmed.
  • Superhuman Speed/Reflexes - Capable of blocking attacks from multiple sources effortlessly, as well as keep up with Cloud with zero difficulty. He can cover vast distances in a moments time both on foot and in flight.
  • Master Tactician - Sephiroth was capable of manipulating Shinra, Cloud's party, and pretty much everybody within the entire Final Fantasy franchise. Almost everybody became subject to his will at one time or another.
  • Genius Intelligence - Sephiroth was always a brilliant mind. He was capable of reading Hojo's entire library in a few weeks. After this, he falls into the lifestream and begins absorbing knowledge from there.
  • Phasing - Sephiroth can phase through solid objects, both in and out of flight.
  • Teleportation - Sephiroth can teleport both short range and long range distances, and has been known to do so in order to ambush his opponents.
  • Telepathy - Capable of reaching into a person's mind and trapping them, as well as other people, in that nightmare. He has done this feat once.
  • Illusion Casting - Capable of projecting illusions of individuals.
  • Invisibility - Via Illusion casting, he can make himself and others completely invisible.
  • Telekinesis - Sephiroth was able to collapse an entire steel/concrete structure with the wave of his hand.
  • Weather Manipulation - Sephiroth was able to turn the weather from sunny, to a full on storm with the flick of his hand.
  • Rain Darkness - Sephiroth can make clouds of darkness rain from the sky in order to conceal himself and obstruct his opponents vision.
  • Soul Energy Absorption - Sephiroth can absorb the corrupt souls of individuals after they have passed, or just plain absorb soul energy in its raw form if he is exposed to it.
  • Soul Manipulation - Sephiroth was able to create a powerful disease to infect the planet, and consume them more and more as their wills grew weaker and weaker. This was called Geostigma, as these people died Sephiroth was able to absorb them.
  • Natural Magic - Because of his extended time spent trapped within the lifestream, Sephiroth can cast most magic without the aid of materia.
  • Force Field Projection - Sephiroth can conjure immense, near impenetrable force barriers.
  • Astral Projection - Upon death, Sephiroth may project himself into the afterlife and continue to exist as an individual. He may also do this when he is living, but must abandon his vessel to do so.
  • Conjuration - Sephiroth created the three Remnants of Sephiroth, with one of them (Kadaj) to act as his vessel when he returns (because Cloud's party destroyed him in FF7). This is useless in combat, but hey, why not?
  • Long Ranged Attacks - Sephiroth is capable of cutting through several feet of steel from a distance with a single attack.
  • Weapon Materialization - Sephiroth can conjure the Masamune into his hands.
  • Flight - Sephiroth is capable of extremely fast self-sustained flight.

Midgar Zolom

The Midgar Zolom is about 6 feet at it's thickest (based on Cloud's height), and about 110 feet long (based on Cloud's height again). Based on the average cobra weight I found (0.0451 ounces per cubic inch), this thing would weight 121 tons.

Just a quick overview of abilities.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

Awesome opening but none of that is new to me and none of that will be new to Dante either!

Here is the overview of the Demon Hunter known as Dante, your probably expecting this amateur here -

But no were actually talking about this monstrous mover of killing in the demon pedal to the medal for medals right here -

Dante the Ultimate Devil Hunter the one and only Son of Sparda!

Here are Dante`s more basic and well-known feats, I don`t want to bombard you with anything too magnificent from this devil killer just yet because I know Sephiroth is going to go down harder than Mundus anyway.

Let`s get this fight started with some epic music action, Sephiroth has a classic theme but no one ever forgets Dante`s!

Devil May Cry Manga

The manga takes place 1 year before Devil May Cry 3 and it serves as a setup for the future events also its canon to the story as well.

This takes place during the manga in which Dante is battling a couple of demons and Dante is even shown to fall from a tower and then land into the hard concrete in which he plummeted from a great height and he gets right back at up like nothing happened this is before he awakened his Devil Trigger and he was steadily growing in power as well as understanding his abilities. Also Dante is shown to have been thrown into a massive crack of stone yet it does nothing to him and no major wound is found anywhere.

Alice who is one of the main characters within the manga with the empowering of Mad Hatters ancient dark magic becomes a new transformed demonic and vampric type being in which she attempts to drain Dante`s soul as well as blood but something impressive happens as Dante is able to repel the dark magic without moving a muscle, Alice becomes her regular self this shows that Dante indeed has a good resistance to magic and this occurred when Dante was at his youngest and he didn`t even discover his Devil Trigger yet.

Dante takes on one of the most powerful entities in the entire Devil May Cry universe and underrated as well in the form of a Seven Sin. The Seven Sins were demons or in particular fallen angels that were depowered and stripped of their power by Sparda himself in which he sealed them to the depths of the earth by taking away their names which held all of their power, Dante defeats the Seven Sin sloth in his human form without any kind of amp although he was evolving from the realization of his demonic blood and power, he is able to dodge as well as easily blitz Sloth in which he launches Rebellion at rapid speed.

Dante ignores a slash from Yamato within his confrontation with Vergil and he brushes it off as he is able to still grip Rebellion and continue firing bullets at Vergil, this is Dante before Devil May Cry 3 as well.

Devil May Cry 3 (The basics and the more to come)

Dante`s power drastically and dramatically rises within this game or story-line as shown with his weaponry, abilities, Devil Trigger and etc. The following is Dante`s regeneration, Dante`s Devil Trigger is insane and top tier his wounds heal in a immeasurable amount of seconds preventing him from losing limbs and so on so forth. Also his durability is very impressive as well.

Dante`s impressive durability feats

Dante survives being cut by Yamato and impaled by his sword right after by his brother Vergil. 1:07-2:30

3:12

Survives being cut by Yamato, even when in a weakened state and is mostly drained of his battle with Vergil. This is a younger Dante too.

Dante is not crushed by the force of a high level demon of brute strength such as Beowulf.

Survives bullet to the head.

Is not bothered by the flames nor temperature of Berial the Conqueror of the Fire Hell in which his flames are of hell fire.

Survives being impaled through the chest by a supernatural weapon of lightning.

Survives the attack or assault of the angry and flaming Ifrit as its flames are hotter than that of a volcano.

0:46 - 0:48

Survives being impaled in the chest by three of Mundus` laser beams.

6:18 - 6:25

Survives Mundus` powerful and life threatening eye beams once again and is directly hit by Mundus`s summoned meteorites but once the next battle begins, he does not look worn out or severely damaged.

2:37 - 3:33

His face is still intact after being pummeled mercilessly by an angry Nero`s Devil Bringer which is able to crack stone and block Rebellion and he also survives being impaled directly in the chest by Rebellion once again and shrugs it off, he also removes Rebellion, showing no signs of pain or discomfort.

Shows no signs of pain when being impaled by several Hell Prides` scythes and just shrugs it off while removing the broken pieces.

2:17 - 3:40

Smiles and is annoyed due to being impaled by the demon Sid who violently impaled him with his own sword, and he violently removes rebellion from his chest without hesitation.

2:14 - 3:05

Survives Trish`s demonic lightning which was given to her by Mundus himself. He also survives as well as shrugs off being impaled by Force Edge.

Dante also has Chrono Heart which would help him in this fight.

devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Amulet

Here are some more feats for Dante in regards to damage outisde of physical injury.

00:00 - 2:40

He is able to resist a powerful artifact that can drain one`s soul which in exchange gives power to the one who wields it.

devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Nightmare

5:38 - 7:25

Dante is able to grasp an artifact of great demonic magic which drains the soul of its essence however it grants the holder and wielder temporary power, Dante is able to resist it and doesn`t collapse or black out this is Dante at his youngest. Here are official in game descriptions of the item and its connection to the different bridges powered throughout the game.

Devil May Cry 3, Key Item File — Neo-Generator: "A magic artifact able to supply power for an eternity. It is used to power the main bridge."

Devil May Cry 3, Key Item File — Haywire Neo-Generator: "He who holds this broken device is irradiated and their soul is drained in exchange for power."

1:12 - 1:30

0:02 - 4:11

Dante is impaled by his own sword Rebellion violently in the chest as well as heart by the demon Sid who becomes the godlike demon Abigail however this doesn`t phase Dante as he just laughs and removes the blade causing Patty to want to remove the sword but what she fails to realize was that Dante was only taking a nap intently and purposely, joking around as usual and he removes the sword with a smile, removing without hesitation feeling no pain or discomfort.

Dante`s powers, abilities and weaponry are massive in regards to an encompassing arsenal, in regards to his weapons he has many and has mastered many.

Dante relinquishes the soul of Nevan in which he masters a magically and electrically empowered guitar that summons bats.

  1. Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Devil Arm File - Nevan': "Dante can control bats by jamming on this curious guitar. Its sickle attack is deadly."
  2. Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Combat Adjudicator — Nevan: "I am the combat adjudicator. Only a technique charged from the heavens can move me.
  3. "Marvel vs. Capcom 3: Fate of Two Worlds Preview".Game Informer (GameStop Corporation) (206). June 2010.

Dante defeats and absorbs the soul of Cerberus in which he is able to manipulate cold tempatures in the form of an unearthly ice.

Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Devil Arms File — Cerberus: "A weapon of 3 interlocking rods, infused with the elemental power of ice."

Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Combat Adjudicator — Cerberus: "I am the combat adjudicator. Only a technique icy-cool to the core can move me."

Dante defeats twin powerful demons named Agni and Rudra he also claims them as weapons in which they become new Devil Arms ultimately allowing him to control Fire and Wind.

Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Devil Arms File — Agni & Rudra: "Blades with serrated edges that hurl forth fire and tornado-like gusts."

Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Combat Adjudicator — Agni & Rudra: "I am the combat adjudicator. Only a technique of gales and flames can move me."

Defeats a Doppleganger of himself and is able to manipulate the being with his will this being has all of Dante`s abilities and weapons as it utilizes mimicry.

Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Style File — Doppelganger: "Style that allows the player to control shadows, effectively creating copies of himself to assist in battle.

Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Doppelganger Style: "Special power used by the Doppelganger enemy. This Style gives you more freedom in battle to try out different tactics and combos."

0:30 - 1:30

Dante defeats Geryon and takes hold of his soul granting him the ability of time manipulation.

Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Style File — Quicksilver: "Time-controlling style in which the player can move at lightning quick speeds."

Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Quicksilver Style: "Special power that Geryon used to control time. This Style gives you more freedom in battle to try out different tactics and combos."

Dante`s speed, reaction time, accuracy, reflexes and senses are really impressive as well.

Dante is hypersonic+ in overall speed and is above Mach 5.

4:45 - 5:25

Able to shoot multiple pool balls accurately into all of the demons and he does so with absolute ease he also battles with them at a very fast pace.

10:34 - 10:50

Dante reacts to an incoming missile and he hops onto the missile with no effort, and this is coming in at fast speeds.

2:31

You can actually see Dante cut and react to an incoming missile also Dante wasn`t even really paying attention to it he just reacted to it like it was nothing.

1:14 - 2:45

Dante in a short burst vanishes and fires accurately at the demon armor also this is Dante in human form, in Devil Trigger form he would be more than five times as fast.

0:15 - 0:24

Dante easily and with great marksmanship fires multiple bullets to force Yamato into the Savior also this shows that Dante does not only have great speed and timing but he also has great accuracy.

Dante also has his Trickster Style which is pretty much even with Vergil`s Dark Slayer Style which Dante mastered and its even instantaneous in movement, its a form of teleportation, Dante has access to both styles also.

Trickster Style

Air Trick: Disappear in the blink of an eye, then reappear above the enemy ready to strike.

Dark Slayer Style

OFFICIAL GAME and MANUAL DESCRIPTIONS:

Air TrickInstantaneously teleport to a spot directly near the enemy.
Level 2
Trick Up++Instantaneously teleport to a spot directly above where you were standing or jumping.
Level 3
Trick Down++

Instantaneously teleport to a spot directly below where you were standing or jumping.

As you can see based on this introduction, Dante has a ton of feats and is a massive POWERHOUSE -literally. He is very underrated its quite the challenge more than expected to even place and structure all of his feats in a condensed method due to how many he has in correlation with his in game abilities which is why I decided to categorize them and keep them a bit minimized to a small degree on a fair level.

I don`t see how time manipulation is going to be an end-all be-all for Dante when he is significantly faster than Sephiroth anyway coupled with the fact that he can teleport and has feats of dodging, reflecting and maneuvering around actual light!

The Conclusion!

I don`t want to go overboard with Dante just yet or bring out my best cards of cutting-edge but in regards to Sephiroth`s so called Snake impaling feat here is Dante before his strongest incarnation which is during DMC 2 easily being able to hold back the dead end weight of the Savior`s fist and the Savior is easily larger than entire small cities or towns/regions. Also Sephiroth is a magic based character and Dante has too much experience in dealing with raw magic, I doubt any of his elemental forces would be able to hinder the demon hunter`s game a DMC 1 Dante would still be able to give Sephiroth a challenge what does Cloud, Tifa, Vincent, Aeris, Cid and etc have on Dante?

The Savior can also do this!

There is also a creature or slithery obstacle which to surprise is actually very similar to the Midgar Zolom her name is Echidna the She-Viper and she`s a large plant serpent that acts as a harvester she possesses great strength in inclusion with her handy maneuverability but Dante who is acting as a pushover is still able to resist the clutches of her vicious jaws and he is able to force her aside.

If you want more evidence and foundation for this powerhouse slayer its in the following of the mighty consistency that is easily applicable and attributed by Nero an individual of STRENGTH.

5:45 - 6:17

2:36 - 2:40 and 3:37 - 3:50

4:11 - 4:20 and 4:58 - 5:00

6:10 - 6:30

Nero is a very strong character which is evident by him being able to perform the following feats such as being able to easily constrain and restrain a berserk Echnida, knock back large demon sized toads and hold them in place, throw back Berial a demon lord of a fiery palace and even crush the Savior in his palms but....

How does this headstrong hulk of demon brutality fare off against the Old Aged Demon Hunter who is at least in his early-mid 40s at this stage in time?

4:45 - 4:50

The answer is not so good, Nero was even shocked by the fact that of the revelation which is by Dante himself who admitted that he was toying around with Nero the whole time in all of their encounters. Let`s not forget that we haven`t actually gotten into DMC 2 Dante who is at least at minimum 100 times more powerful than all the other versions, Dante as demonstrated has been able to at young ages and being less powerful iterations take down hell lords, deities and etc. If we are to equip the Sword of Sparda along with Dante`s Majin Form which I will reveal soon then it is certain that Sephiroth will not stand a chance against the demon hunter. We haven`t even gotten into the more powerful aspects and attributive gifts of Dante`s character yet he still surpasses Cloud and his entire PARTY. Dante in BASE Devil Trigger mode has all of his stats increased by 2x-3x the reason why I put so much emphasis on the term base is because literally Dante has a base DT not his more powerful releases of bursting unstoppable chaos! To make this more interesting, I`ll give you a distinct sneak peek of what comes next in regards to Dante.....

Sneak Peek

Like my Partner in Power @pope052`s character Goku, Dante has his own Super Saiyan type transformations their called as mentioned above, Devil Triggers that can be instantly activated the one above being the most invincibly powerful.

Therefore, Dante is by no means a stranger to showcasing his great physical strength and stats, Sephiroth has lifted 121 tons worth of weight but Dante can lift that and more! Sephiroth is going to need to show more firepower because my next argument is going to go straight into a territory where Dante will definitely reign as king and key which is versatility.

#41 Posted by Wyldsong (5320 posts) - - Show Bio

Be sure to tag me for voting.

#42 Edited by New_World_Order (12950 posts) - - Show Bio

Awesome debate, going to read this over later.

#43 Edited by thelocust619 (2224 posts) - - Show Bio

Thought I'd like this, but I lost interest after the first post with the amount of hyperbole. You don't jump from multi galaxy to universe level as you would from building to block level. The scale is far larger....even if someone could bust 100 galaxies then multiplied their PL by 1,000 they would still be nowhere close to universe busting. Not even a tenth of the way there. Also a brightly lit galaxy x50 is just a very brightly lit galaxy, in no way is that going to break down the matter of the entire thing so already my head is spinning.

If its so mismatched we have an SSJ2 vs an SSJ4 and planet level sephiroth (literally waged war with a planet and all its inhabitants) vs Dante who can't even cut a building in half....what's the point?

P.S. the Savior isn't even skyscraper sized, much less larger than cities. Wtf is this garbage?

Anyway good luck n have fun, but its already a mismatch without the hyperbole

Props to Floopay for not exaggerating anything.

#45 Edited by Pope052 (3087 posts) - - Show Bio

@thelocust619:

I had explicitly stated in the OP, not to post involving anything along the lines of correcting either of us on the debating quality. That's why you wait until the voting beings, so you can opnely give your opinion on all/any of our arguments but only then.

Anyway, i'll showcase and explain in my next barrage of posts in as much detail as I can on why the points I had made wouldn't be hyperbole so I wouldn't judge an entire debate by only an opening post if I were you.

You'd do best to delete your post, and wait until the debate has concluded.

Online
#46 Edited by Iragexcudder (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

Just let the debate go through ladies and gentlemen.. Please. Save your opinions for the voting

#47 Edited by 106me (1485 posts) - - Show Bio

@thelocust619: Calm down and let the debate continue. It has just barely begun and you're already judging. And I would like to argue that the Savior's punch is much stronger than you think, but I will honor the CaV rules and wait until afterwards. So please do us a favor and just wait until the debate finishes.

#48 Posted by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

Thought I'd like this, but I lost interest after the first post with the amount of hyperbole. You don't jump from multi galaxy to universe level as you would from building to block level. The scale is far larger....even if someone could bust 100 galaxies then multiplied their PL by 1,000 they would still be nowhere close to universe busting. Not even a tenth of the way there. Also a brightly lit galaxy x50 is just a very brightly lit galaxy, in no way is that going to break down the matter of the entire thing so already my head is spinning.

If its so mismatched we have an SSJ2 vs an SSJ4 and planet level sephiroth (literally waged war with a planet and all its inhabitants) vs Dante who can't even cut a building in half....what's the point?

P.S. the Savior isn't even skyscraper sized, much less larger than cities. Wtf is this garbage?

Anyway good luck n have fun, but its already a mismatch without the hyperbole

Props to Floopay for not exaggerating anything.

I don`t know what the fuss is about but I actually have DMC 4 and I beat it more than 10 times, have you actually played or at least analyzed it? The Hell-Gates are pretty much skyscraper level and the setting that DMC 4 is placed is in Fortuna a small town or city that is encompassed by an actual island. The Savior is pretty large when you look at the different point in views its no exaggeration by any means, The Savior is at least larger than a good portion of Fortuna itself and although I appreciate your concerns you should learn to read the rules first before making a comment such as this.

#49 Edited by Floopay (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

@neongamewave:

Few Points right off the bat:

There'll be examples of this throughout the videos I'm posting, but to clarify.

Time Manipulation: Sephiroth is 100% immune to this. He has been shown to manipulate time himself, and when in a slowed time stream, he can still move at hypersonic speeds with absolute ease. So all of the speed Dante gains through this is moot.

Fire/Lightning/Wind/Earth/Cold/Most Magic: Sephiroth is completely immune to elemental damage, soul-based attacks, and etc.

Telepathy

Sephiroth has shown the ability to affect minds on a world-wide scale, while simultaneously affecting the minds of those who no longer exist in the lifestream. This is millions of lives simultaneously, all while plotting and scheming. Which means unless Dante has extreme resistance and immunity to telepathy, Sephiroth will have him KO'd almost instantaneously.

Sephiroth displays telepathy, speaking to everyone's minds within the northern crater, does some illusion casting, teleports more, flight, levitation etc.

Telepathy, Illusion Casting, Invisibility

0:00-6:30 - Feel free to skim through it - Sephiroth drags the full party into Cloud and Tifa's darkest memory.

7:30-8:30 - Sephiroth KO's the entire party, and sends Barret into an illusions. When he comes out of the illusion, he can't see anybody. At that point Sephiroth, who has now cloaked himself to look like Tifa, appears and send Barret to the party, so that he may obtain the Black Materia he desires. At this point you see the whole party on the ground, KO'd and just coming to. Clearly a showing of illusion casting, invisibility, and mind assaults.

Lifestream Black 2

This is a showing of Sephiroth creating and controlling the Stigma.

When the Lifestream erupted onto the surface of the planet, the man had already surrendered his inconsequential memories to the planet. Memories from when he was a boy, of his few friends, of the battles when he was still unaware, of his life in bygone days– all these became a part of the inundation, encased around Meteor, and finally receded. At the same time, the core of his spirit, and those memories deeply related to it, moved from torrent to torrent, and traveled around the land, from city to city. When the people who were trying to escape, or those left unable to do anything but stand still, were enveloped by those streams, he decided to leave them with his stigma. If Cloud noticed that stigma, the man was certain that he would never disappear. As long as Cloud remembers me, I can continue to exist. Within the Lifestream, and on the surface. Even if my spirit disseminates, even if just one fragment of a memory courses around the planet, in the end I can count on Cloud’s consciousness to bring me back, the man thought.

Geostigma

Explanation to the effects of geostigma

The people covered in black have geostigma

Watch the first 50 seconds.

Sephiroth's Speed:

Here is Zack Fair, or just one small example of him. He's an extremely enhanced human with extreme levels of perception. I pick this video because there are a lot of good examples to prove my point in it.

0:30-0:45 - Soldiers Assault Zack

1:00-1:15 - Entire fight in slow motion, Zack is assaulted by other members of SOLDIER, who are enhanced to his level as well. He humiliates them

1:15-1:30 - Not even kind of afraid of the bullets fired at him.

4:40-5:00 - Zack puts down his sword down in front of Cloud to protect him, and confronts a large squad of Shinra troops armed with swords and guns with his bare hands.

5:00-5:10 - Zack easily perceives bullets and dodges them effortlessly.

5:10-5:30 - Slaughters a group of infantry and SOLDIER members with his bare hands, easily throwing them through hunks of wood and killing them with a single strike. Remarkable strength and striking power.

Now, lets see how Zack fairs against the weakest version of Sephiroth:

Final Fantasy 7: Last Order: Sephiroth vs. Zack and Cloud

Cloud blindsides him here. But he destroys Zack like it's nobodies business. Zack defeated Angeal and Genesis, so Sephiroth trouncing him is kind of a big deal. Sephiroth is so fast, even Zack can't track his movements when he really gets into his speed.

0:00-1:15 - Sephiroth demolishes Zack

Intangibility

There'll be plenty more examples of this in my other videos, but here's the first occurrence. Sephiroth cannot be affected via physical means while in this form.

Shown in the first minute of the video.

Note: Rest of the video is pointless to watch

Teleportation:

10:45-11:45 Sephiroth seems to phase walk, and then teleports in this scene.

Note: You can watch the rest of the video but it's 100% irrelevent

Phasing, Intangibility, Teleportation, Soul Energy Absorption

0:00-1:30 - Sephiroth teleports several times, displays flight, phase walking, etc.

1:30-2:30 - Talks about how he plans to absorb the Lifestream, aka Soul/Life energy.

19:30-20:45 - Sephiroth teleports in out of nowhere, displays flight, and then compels Cloud to give him the Black Materia (which is needed to call forth a giant meteor to crush a portion of the planet, but not destroy it). Cloud starts running to Sephiroth, but it's in slow motion, you can see Cloud's spirit attempting to save him from himself, but is unable to do so at this point in the game. Notice, while everything is slow motion, Sephiroth still whips off the screen in a moments time. Extremely high levels of speed here.

Final Fantasy 7: Crisis Core: Sephiroth vs. Genesis and Angeal

This is Junon. This is literally an entire city/military base rolled into one. That Cannon on top there is dang near the size of the city, and Sephiroth was able to effortlessly cut through both with melee attacks, and was able to slice then entire thing in half with a ranged attack.

Things to note:

Blocking these attacks are causing the steel structure beneath their feet to melt, this is from well over 3-4 meters away, meaning the heat generated here is extremely intense, yet Sephiroth isn't even sweating (nor is Gensis). He is fighting multiple Super Soldiers who outclass Zack Fair physically in every stat (yet he blocks and deflects their attacks with no effort), and this is portrayed as a fond memory of friends causing shenanigans for Sephiroth. So not really a serious fight for him.

0:20-1:25 - Sephiroth is outmatching both these guys in swordsmanship

1:45-1:50 - The attack from Genesis melts the steel beneath Sephiroth's feat, but doesn't even make him shed a bead of sweat.

2:15-2:50 - Cuts down every single stupid bolt, and emerges unharmed.

3:02-3:03 - In about 0.2 seconds, Sephiroth unleashes 8 attacks. Each one easily rips through reinforced steel.

2:51-3:14 - Notice how easily his attacks rip through that cannon? Minimal effort

3:30-3:35 - Look at the power of the shockwave from the collision of those attacks. Melts and dents the steel beneath them.

Something to Note

These are his weakest forms, I'm not even getting started :P

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

#50 Edited by DeathHero61 (5917 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn, im not the type of person who waits for CAVs to update, but this is actually getting interesting.