Pre New-52 Superman, "Broly - Second Coming" Legendary Super Saiyan Broly.
In Character, but highly motivated to win.
All feats and showings can be used, but no PIS or out-of-character feats.
No Prep, nor Prior Knowledge.
Win by Death, or KO only.
Challenge A Viner Rules:
Do not start extra illegal arguments, general opinions, post unnecessary scans/videos or interfere in the debate itself in any way. If you wish to inform either of us on anything important or correct us on a point, send us a private message.
If any of the above is excessively broken, we may request a mod to assist.
It's appreciated if there's no early judgments are made on the outcome of the battle, one should always wait and witness the debating quality and abilities of everyone involved before jumping to early conclusions.
Give at least one reason for a vote, and the scoring will be set to ten but may be changed.
*facepalm* Consider Pope052 hates Brolly and doesn't believe he's as powerful as he's proven to be, I don't expect much from from this at all. So I can say this'
*facepalm* Consider Pope052 hates Brolly and doesn't believe he's as powerful as he's proven to be, I don't expect much from from this at all. So I can say this'
Don't tag me for voting.
I don't hate Broly as a character mate, just the way he's treated by some. Besides, you did manage to convince me on a lot of things. Anyway, let's not get any further into this, wouldn't want a debate to get derailed because of something irrelevant ;P
We all know just how excessively Goku is compared to Superman, and it wouldn't surprise me if it's still an ongoing debate. And while many of us share a different opinion on that topic, I think almost everyone can agree that Superman has the durability advantage over Goku to the point where the Saiyan couldn't possibly hope to achieve it on par with Superman's level. This enables Superman to handle most of what Goku can dish out, and the Kryptonian also has the stamina to potentially outlast Goku, if he couldn't get enough strong hits in, and rightfully so. However, this isn't Goku, and thus neither advantage will be of much aid to Superman against someone who is comparable to him in those departments. Before we get into what Broly has done and dusted, let's do a quick little advantage chart for the sake of breaking things down, on who's pros will lead to who's victory:
Strength - Superman
Striking Power - Superman
Durability - Tie
Combat/Reaction Speed - Broly
Power Output - Broly
Versatility - Superman
Stamina - Broly
Despite the tie in number of advantages, Broly's abilities will prove to exceed Superman's overall. Superman's strength and versatility won't be any significant advantages to take into proper consideration at the end of the day, but it's his striking power that's key to deconstructing Broly's durability (of course it won't be easy, but he could eventually do it). However, that's really the only aspect Superman has that'll affect Broly, otherwise Broly has the overwhelming power at his disposal in order to crack Superman's formidable durability. Broly has the durability to handle anything Superman's offensive versatile powers can dish out, and the speed advantage is quite sufficient to avoid sustaining any lasting damage from Superman's blows. Now then, that should make things clear enough on how i'm going to exhibit a plan to win, let's get straight to the point starting with basics:
Durability:
When Broly was merely a baby and Frieza's supernova hit Planet Vegeta, causing the planet to erupt and explode in a matter of seconds, Broly's energy at this point was resistant enough to completely protect him and his father (Paragus) from the explosion. This is the first demonstration of the Legendary Super Saiyan's capabilities, and while you may make the point of this being an energy shield and not Broly's own durability, the Dragon Ball characters' energy is what allows them to withstand damage they normally couldn't, so this feat does fall under the durability department:
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Broly was also stabbed moments beforehand too, but that wouldn't be much to consider. I should note now that i'm not going to be posting much feats in this opener, mainly because i'd like to save Broly's best comparable showings till you make your case for Superman, so this post is only covering the basics. Thus as of now, there isn't going to be a lot of feats or detail involved in this post.
Striking Power:
There's not much I can use for Broly that compares to Superman in this category, other than the fact that Broly's punches and kicks dealt some great deals of damage to the Saiyans and Piccolo when they fought. Both Goku and Vegeta have good feats of tanking blows from characters who possess over island level striking ability such as Frieza, and a lot more previously especially in regards to Goku. But for a simple example, let's use Gohan:
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The force of Broly's punches have felled mountains on contact:
However i'll digress from any proper argument in this category, there's not much that could be brought to table against Superman's stacks of striking feats that I know of. Broly shouldn't be able to hurt Superman much by simple punches and kicks, he'll resort to his superior energy projection to do the trick.
Energy Projection:
As a kid, Broly was able to vaporize entire cities effortlessly:
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More so, he's capable of effortless planet busting as a proper Legendary Super Saiyan:
Combat/Reaction Speed:
This above but along with everything else will be much better exhibited in my next posts, as I will show how Goku's levels of speed and thus this feat will be more impressive, Broly is easily fast enough to dodge both Goku's and Piccolo's attacks at once:
I think this will be enough for at least an opener, despite the fact that I left a lot out, i'm simply planning to save all of that for later mate ;)
Superman has virtually all advantages over Broly. Superman's reaction speed has been calculated by Batman to be Zeptoseconds. A sextillionth of a second. Superman's sheer speed of dodging have left small craters in the planet. He can circle the Earth on foot, in 12 seconds. When flying he can cross the galaxy in mere seconds. Do you believe Broly can do this? His muscle mass leaves him slower than a well-trained Super Saiyan 2. This is why Ultra-Super Saiyan didn't work on Cell. At Super Saiyan 2, Goku and Vegeta couldn't escape Buu's "Planet Burst" which had crossed only a few miles before it erupted. Goku, whose battling-thought process was at least somewhat near Broly's level couldn't think of a place to teleport when he had several seconds to. If they couldn't escape Buu's Planet Burst then Broly most certainly couldn't. Superman however could. Whether he used speed or Instant-Transmission, he could've escaped thousands of times over. Broly is not faster than Superman by any means. As for the durability of Broly when he was a baby, he survived the blast of a sphere that didn't necessarily have to be anywhere near his full power of 530'000 as Master Roshi destroyed The Moon with a power level around 100 when he was tired, therefore a person could destroy Earth with a power level around 5,000. You can also know it wasn't a very powerful Supernova as he formed it much quicker than when he fought Goku. As for energy distribution when he was a baby. Energy raises your power level so the force field was most likely dancing around 15-20k. Felling mountains with fists is nothing compared to felling mountains with your breath. Gohan also isn't a good example for a full powered Super Saiyan 2 as he is significantly weaker than wen he thrashed Cell. I'll let you give a rebuttal as I haven't even gotten started with feats.
No, not really mate. Superman doesn't have anything vast over Broly other than striking, versatility, and physical strength. The latter two advantages won't be anything effective, and Superman won't be able to get a decent shot on Broly either due to the speed advantage.
But most importantly I don't see why/how you would assume that Superman has the power output advantage? Considering how the feats for Broly's lowest levels of energy projection is better than anything Superman has done with a fully fledged blast of heat vision. So no, Superman doesn't have all advantages over Broly, but let's detail on that:
Superman's reaction speed has been calculated by Batman to be Zeptoseconds. A sextillionth of a second. Superman's sheer speed of dodging have left small craters in the planet. He can circle the Earth on foot, in 12 seconds. When flying he can cross the galaxy in mere seconds. Do you believe Broly can do this?
I did a little research to be sure, but I can't seem to find that scan nor have I ever heard of it brought up before. Superman is digging within the nanosecond range in perceptions based on three instances, but he needs to speed up his senses to do that in the first place and he hasn't done so in battle before, so there's no reason as to why he'd suddenly do it here. Even if he could that'd only apply to Superman's perception speed, you can't apply this to his combat or reaction speed (and yes, there's a difference between being able to see something and being able to react to/tag it).
As for the rest, I don't see how leaving small craters in planets would prove Superman is faster, and the following two are irrelevant to a fight, they're travel feats. The only feats that should be considered into a battle are the ones performed in a fight, and in this case Superman's combat speed must be shown first and foremost, but i'm aware of how fast Superman is based off of applicable feats, so let's see how much he compares to Broly in combat speed:
In order to measure Broly's speed it requires measuring Goku's speed as a Super Saiyan, which we can do based on what he has done in the Frieza Saga. Now, this is where many tend to lose people when bringing up calculations, but they're solely based off of the feats that were done and the ability to accurately measure the speed performed in those feats, so unless there's an obvious mistake or anything, there's no reason to shoot down calculations based on reputation.
In order to keep this short and sweet, I won't be posting the scans of the speed feats performed by Goku that i'll be referencing, as I don't deem them necessary for the time being (however, if you insist on seeing them, i'll be happy to provide them in my next post):
After the battle with Raditz, Piccolo blew up the moon in order to turn Oozaru Gohan back into himself. The entire feat was done in one second, because the beam reached and blew up the moon almost instantly after it was fired, Piccolo's beam is rounded off to X1.5 FTL.
Much later in the Frieza Saga, Final Form Frieza was able to easily dodge Piccolo's energy attacks along with Gohan and Krillin's. Keep in mind, that Piccolo was much more powerful than he was back in the Saiyan Saga, so Frieza's reaction speed is at least on the same value as the speed of Piccolo's energy beams, it's reasonable to keep it that way.
And when Goku arrived, by using Kaioken X20 he was able to speed-blitz Frieza when Frieza was using fifty percent of his power as opposed to the one percent used when dodging Piccolo's energy attacks. So, this makes (Kaioken X20) Goku's speed also X1.5 FTL.
All we need to do now is measure the difference in power between Kaioken X20 Goku and him in Super Saiyan, which is X2.5. Then, we can conclude SSJ Goku's speed at X3.5 FTL, and yet as we saw Broly was able to easily outpace SSJ Goku and Piccolo:
So from that we can draw Broly's speed being at least over three times faster than light, and that gives him the strong combat speed advantage in all of the important aspects. Superman on the other hand, is not light speed in any respect of fighting ability aside from being able to see light move. Now, he might be able to see Broly based on that, but that doesn't mean he'll be able to throw a punch at that speed nor dodge Broly's attacks or speed-blitzing attempts.
Another point to make is that Broly was consistently outpacing and blitzing all five of the Z Fighters (who are all faster than Superman in pure combat and limb movement speed, while Vegeta and Goku are the ones who can also match the speed of Superman's sight and have feats of actually reacting to levels of speed like that). From all of that, Broly won't be having the slightest bit of trouble dodging, blitzing and generally outpacing Superman, because not only are all of the Z Fighters faster than Superman purely in general, but also since Superman is only one opponent.
His muscle mass leaves him slower than a well-trained Super Saiyan 2. This is why Ultra-Super Saiyan didn't work on Cell. At Super Saiyan 2, Goku and Vegeta couldn't escape Buu's "Planet Burst" which had crossed only a few miles before it erupted. Goku, whose battling-thought process was at least somewhat near Broly's level couldn't think of a place to teleport when he had several seconds to. If they couldn't escape Buu's Planet Burst then Broly most certainly couldn't. Superman however could. Whether he used speed or Instant-Transmission, he could've escaped thousands of times over. Broly is not faster than Superman by any means.
Well no, because despite the fact that this assertion was never indicated, Broly didn't have any problem outpacing the Z Fighters. Goku and Vegeta couldn't escape because A: Vegeta doesn't know instant transmission, and Buu's energy was blocking Goku's senses so that's why he couldn't use it, & B: The Saiyans cannot survive in space, so they had nowhere else to run since Goku wasn't able to lock onto anyone's power. It had nothing to do with lack of speed, and Superman only would have been able to escape since he doesn't have trouble surviving in space.
Despite your claims and the fact that Supes hasn't shown anything on par with Broly's combat speed, Broly is indeed a lot faster than Superman in the department of speed feats that are actually relevant unless you can prove he's FTL in combat speeds, but there's a ton of evidence against you.
As for the durability of Broly when he was a baby, he survived the blast of a sphere that didn't necessarily have to be anywhere near his full power of 530'000 as Master Roshi destroyed The Moon with a power level around 100 when he was tired, therefore a person could destroy Earth with a power level around 5,000. You can also know it wasn't a very powerful Supernova as he formed it much quicker than when he fought Goku.
It really doesn't matter how powerful Frieza's supernova (which is only the name of the attack, by the way) is, the point was that it destroyed the planet yet Broly's energy durability at this early of a point of his power was strong enough to completely fend it off. Other than his striking power, Superman won't be able to crack Broly's durability through anything else (however his punches won't be as efficient since he won't be able to get a good and concentrated strike, since Broly will be mostly be dodging), but in order to make this claim solid, a FP Kamehameha from SSJ Goku didn't even scratch him:
And how powerful is Movie Goku's Kamehameha you ask? It's very powerful, at a much weaker and unstable stage of Super Saiyan, Goku overpowered Final Form Cooler's supernova (and also, Cooler said in his own head that he was capable of blowing up the sun), sent Cooler to the sun at speeds many times faster than light and actually blew up the sun too:
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And Goku was a stronger Super Saiyan up against Broly, yet his Kamehameha did no damage and Broly literally laughed it off afterwards, proving that he has quite more than star level durability.
While Superman has survived worse (but he has been knocked out), he has not shown to casually handle power outputs on this level of power without a sign of damage like so, so i'd argue that durability would be a tie. Anyway, this feat wouldn't apply to handling blunt force trauma damage (since the explosions involve a lot more), but this shows Superman won't be able to do any damage otherwise.
Now in regards to Superman's striking power, although I know that it's enough to deal some great deals of damage to Broly, he won't be able to perform his hits on the same extent as he does in his feats, as he won't be able to keep up in speed in order to execute them as powerful as they could be. Because of that Broly shouldn't take much damage from any possible hit commenced, after all the Z Fighters could not harm him under any use of physical attacks (it took a supercharged punch to do the job, but the big difference is that Goku was better at keeping up, not the same story here):
As for energy distribution when he was a baby. Energy raises your power level so the force field was most likely dancing around 15-20k. Felling mountains with fists is nothing compared to felling mountains with your breath. Gohan also isn't a good example for a full powered Super Saiyan 2 as he is significantly weaker than wen he thrashed Cell. I'll let you give a rebuttal as I haven't even gotten started with feats.
It really doesn't matter what number Broly's distribution was paralleling, anyway I admitted to Superman having the much superior striking power (though I should hope that you're going to post feats for all of these claims, since I haven't heard of a lot of what you've listed) and that Broly won't be able to deal much damage to Superman in those terms. I only used Gohan as a random example too, because like I said there isn't much I could show for Broly's striking unless I scaled, but I won't. So i'll wrap things up for now until I see some strong durability posted on your behalf:
Summary:
Broly's speed is vastly superior to Superman's, and it'll allow him to dodge pretty much all of Superman's attacks unless you can prove Superman can keep up.
Although based on the feats I know of for both, durability is more or less equal however Broly has not been harmed by much more powerful attacks than Superman has shrugged off before. Plus, there's more to show for Broly under this category.
Broly can handle most of the punches that Superman throws out, as they won't be up to standard on what they normally are since Broly will be dodging more so than tanking.
Since no feats or mention of Superman's durability has been stated yet, i'll also hold back on Broly's more adept feats of energy projection that'll be more than enough to lay waste to the Man of Steel's resistance, since I already have a rough idea on what could be said.
Broly's energy is ever growing and won't allow him to tire out throughout battle, so stamina isn't an advantage for Superman here and the more the battle prolongs, the more powerful Broly will become and the more difficult it'll be for Superman to contend.
@pope052: Kaio-Ken X20 Goku faster than light? That is ridiculous. When Krillin spotted Android 20 and summoned the gang, they didn't arrive in time to stop him from activating #17 and #18. Light moves at 670,616,629 mph. If they were even equal to that, they could have circled Earth 7.5 times in one second. Moving on. In the Broly dodging gif above, The Z Fighters aren't as strong as Cell. Cell's strength and speed allowed him to dodge Trunks. They aren't on Cell's level yet so they can't evade Broly. Broly is also a brawler and doesn't take fights seriously until it is too late. Don't forget about Broly's weak spot in the abdomen either. Superman can see and assess anomalies in the body. Superman has caught punches from Flash before. If that isn't light-speed reaction then I don't know what is. I also have a question: How do you know that Broly has no limit? It's never been explicitly stated. I shall post scans below. Still, I implore you to post your best examples and I will follow suit.
@pope052: His durability and speed far outweigh Broly's. The experience he describes has been verified by astrologists as Light-Speed. Note that Venus ranges from 746-934 million. The moons are also a bit further.
Kaio-Ken X20 Goku faster than light? That is ridiculous. When Krillin spotted Android 20 and summoned the gang, they didn't arrive in time to stop him from activating #17 and #18. Light moves at 670,616,629 mph. If they were even equal to that, they could have circled Earth 7.5 times in one second.
Yeah, except we're debating on how fast two combatants are in the midst of a fight, your examples don't have anything to do with combat speed and I didn't claim for anyone to be faster than light in travel speed (though I suppose that's debatable, but nonetheless irrelevant). Besides, Goku wasn't even present in this occurrence in the first place, why would you reference this? So either way yes, Kaioken X20 Goku is, at least, the same speed as Piccolo's beam, even though logic dictates he'd have to be faster, however I have reduced it in order to stay reasonable. But anyway, I have already shown Broly's speed easily outpace Super Saiyan Goku's and I have went over Goku's too, Broly is over three times faster than light as a result. Superman on the other hand, isn't even close to that value in combat speed, and the fact that you've used travel feats only proves my point.
Moving on. In the Broly dodging gif above, The Z Fighters aren't as strong as Cell. Cell's strength and speed allowed him to dodge Trunks. They aren't on Cell's level yet so they can't evade Broly Broly is also a brawler and doesn't take fights seriously until it is too late. Don't forget about Broly's weak spot in the abdomen either. Superman can see and assess anomalies in the body.
Apologies, but I don't know what exactly you're trying to mean by the first point. Just because they aren't on Cell's level, doesn't mean that any of Z Fighters' are slower than Superman. I think you may be trying to doubt Broly possessing fast combat speed for whatever reason, and that's not true for any reasoning, the reality of it was that Broly was faster than all of them, so I don't see what being inferior to Cell has to do with anything? If you honestly need more proof of Broly being faster than the Z Fighters, all you have to do is watch how he consistently blitzed them to hell and back:
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Broly isn't a complete brawler, he has used speed mostly against the Z Fighters, he only doesn't take battle seriously because the only times he did to battle, his opponents were vastly inferior to him. Either way, Broly not being serious doesn't matter if you aren't able to tag and/or significantly damage him, which are still two points that you have yet to cover. Secondly, it's only assumption to say Broly has a weak spot due to getting stabbed, and even if that were true, it's not like Superman would have a chance to scan Broly before Broly bull rushes him. Besides, I have still shown Broly's superior combat speed to what you've provided for Superman, so you won't actually get to hit the weak spot even if there actually is one, to which there's evidence against.
Superman has caught punches from Flash before. If that isn't light-speed reaction then I don't know what is.
Superman didn't catch Wally's punch, he only managed to stop Wally before he was able to take off, and when Wally was actually punching Superman he didn't seem to be fast enough to react to or intercept any of the blows. So no, Superman is still only on light speed perceptions, he has no feats that I have seen where he actually reacts to an attack or opponent fighting him at many times the speed of light. I'm open to change my mind if there's anything I can't point out a flaw in, but as of now and from what I have seen in previous debates, there isn't anything solid.
I also have a question: How do you know that Broly has no limit? It's never been explicitly stated. I shall post scans below. Still, I implore you to post your best examples and I will follow suit.
While yes, it has never been said in the exact words "Broly's energy holds no limit", however that shouldn't change some of the evidence that would support Broly's ability to become stronger despite the fact that he releases large amounts of energy in battle. Such as right before he released his "Blaster Meteor" energy attack, he was breathing heavily and said "getting stronger, much stronger", so it does at least describe his ability to regenerate power. There's a statement written into Broly's character biography in the game Budokai Tenkaichi 3, and the games are produced by the official companies. However, one of the best forms of evidence towards this claim takes place in Second Coming, i'll quote @reikai's better explanation on this:
In the 10th film, Brolly crashes to Earth and is frozen in ice for 7yrs. At the same time, the surrounding region suffers a terrible drought that has lasted since Brolly's arrival, though unbeknownst to the neabry villagers. Rain stopped, plants and animals began dying without reason, the vitality of the land itself was being drained. The reason for this was Brolly. His body had gone into Survival Mode, much as it had done when he was an infant on the exploding Planet Vegeta. To survive, his body absorbed the life ki of the surrounding land to sustain him and heal him while he was frozen, effectively placing him in a form of suspended animation until Goten's crying awoke him.
One may think that not possible, but the evidence is there. Brolly survived 7yrs without food, water or oxygen while being completely encased in ice. When he awoke not only was he fully healed, but he was even stronger than he had been. The same thing happened when he was an infant, with the exception of being frozen. The infant Brolly was stabbed and thrown out and left to die. Such would've instantly killed an infant, even a Saiyan one, and yet the seemingly dead baby Brolly awoke when Freeza's Death Ball was beginning to crash into the planet, and in his rage had pulled himself and his injured father off the planet within a protective barrier, that withstood the force of the planets explosion and carried them to a nearby habitable world.
That should be quite enough to say Broly's LSSJ capabilities prevents him from any lack of energy as a result of it's usage in battle, so let's get in regards to your scans before I get into the high forms of Broly's energy projection. I won't consider the travel speed feats nor the Flash instance, since I have already noted on those, so i'm only going to be focusing on what you've posted for Superman's durability instead:
First of all, you didn't give any notation on what order the scans are and if they're related. However, if the first two are parallel to one another and you're trying to use the second feat to say Superman handled half a galaxy buster, that was only said on what would happen if the bomb exploded, but it didn't at least from what happened in the scans. If the first two scans aren't related, you'll need to explain the context.
I knew you'd bring up the Kepler nova feat, and while that's impressive, Superman didn't tank the actual explosion. It specifically stated in the scan after it exploded "the explosion was about fifty times the size of Kepler's supernova, the electromagnetic shock wave came rushing towards Clark at the speed of light, right behind it was an expanding ball of radiation that would have incinerated Clark as soon as it touched him. Superman didn't handle anything other than the magnetic shock wave, and that's far inferior to tanking the explosion, which would have been absurd considering the hoard of inconsistent contradiction that could create, if you'll insist on that being the case.
The Saturn's moon feat is good for his striking power, but he was already flying at a rapid speed to consider it an applicable durability feat, since Superman isn't going to gain any flight acceleration up against Broly.
And lastly the planet colliding feat is a good durability feat, but I have already shown Broly's second lowest showing of energy projection being capable of completely wasting a planet with ease, the planets that collided into Superman weren't even properly destroyed.
From all of Superman's feats, I know about him surviving another supernova in a separate feat, but he was knocked unconscious straight away. So you can't use that feat to say he could tank everything below an average supernova, since he was knocked out in the process, so we have no way to scale down from that feat and apply it to how he'd handle solar system level attacks. We know he has feats on/above the planet level and we know he was KO'd by a supernova, but we can't fill in the gap between those with anything else since it wouldn't be anything more than speculation.
So with all given feats and information it comes down to one question, how does Superman's best levels of durability stand up to Broly's best levels of energy projection? To be honest, Superman loses this battle by a long shot even if we reduce Broly's best showing of power output, and that is none other than when he destroyed the Southern Galaxy before he encountered the Saiyans and eventually confronted Goku:
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While I won't ignore all of the questioning of the feat and rightfully so (despite the fact that there hasn't been any strong going evidence in denying this feat), i'll settle this feat into making Broly's energy projection maybe below galaxy level, but still massively multi-solar system level nonetheless. If we assumed that the feat took place over a decade, it'd still mean Broly wasted solar systems by the second.. Also, this feat was done in either his Restricted Super Saiyan Form or his Base Form, and either way they don't begin to compare to his Legendary Super Saiyan self in Second Coming, so reducing Broly's energy to multi solar system level is more than reasonable. Superman doesn't have any feats to say he could handle tanking that amount as Broly dishes it out on the casual, and saying he could traps you in the immeasurable middle ground between planet/supernova level.
Summary:
Broly still has the strong speed advantage that leaves a big gap between him and Superman in the aspect.
Broly's consistent rising energy will allow him to constantly be up in Superman's face and consistently nailing him with energy blasts.
Although it won't be a one shot, Broly's levels of energy projection even in a weaker state was too much for Superman to handle, more so here.
Superman won't be able to harm Broly significantly since he'll only be getting a few hits in if Broly gets too confident, but Broly's speed will enable him to stop it from happening for the most part and his durability is sufficient to handle Superman's other means of offense.
The Legendary Super Saiyan lays waste to the Man of Steel, and proceeds to eventually nuke existence as we know it ;P
But it should be interesting to see what you'll say in response, your move mate.
@pope052: on his point about cell, he means it doesnt prove he isnt slower, like USSJ, though it shouldnt matter... as long as you can determine his speed.
And when Goku arrived, by using Kaioken X20 he was able to speed-blitz Frieza when Frieza was using fifty percent of his power as opposed to the one percent used when dodging Piccolo's energy attacks. So, this makes (Kaioken X20) Goku's speed also X1.5 FTL.
You mentioned Kaioken X20 Goku above.
Apologies, but I don't know what exactly you're trying to mean by the first point. Just because they aren't on Cell's level, doesn't mean that any of Z Fighters' are slower than Superman. I think you may be trying to doubt Broly possessing fast combat speed for whatever reason, and that's not true for any reasoning, the reality of it was that Broly was faster than all of them, so I don't see what being inferior to Cell has to do with anything?
As for your statement above, I am comparing Broly to Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks(In build). Cell was able to dodge Trunks due to his level of speed and strength despite Trunks' intense muscularity. Broly is just as large, if not larger yet he can still thrash them. This is due to their levels not being proportionate to Cell and Trunks. Sorry for the confusion.
For your last statement about the Kamehameha Wave, check out the the video above. 49 min. to 55:40. It took Goku roughly a minute and a half to rev up his most powerful blast and that left him exhausted. When facing Broly, he took a mere 9 seconds. It obviously wasn't of Full-Power.
Superman can scan things immediately. His thought process is higher than almost any life-form.
Note 18:20 in your Broly video above. This proves Broly has a limit. In the Japanese version he stated "My ki is rising. It's overflowing." He then releases the energy that you see in blasts all over New Vegeta. He was releasing it in obvious agony. He is simply waiting to burst. He didn't bleed when Goku hit him, he imploded and released energy, hence the explosion.
Broly does get tired too. Superman's stamina is nothing short of phenomenal. Action Comics #761. He fought on Asgard for 1,000 years straight.
Now, the Galaxy Busting feat. In the Japanese version King Kai stated that "The Southern Galaxy is under Super Saiyan Attack". This means that it hasn't been destroyed. This is later solidified as you see a plethora of Stars, Moons and Planets when Goku is teleporting to The South Galaxy. He couldn't teleport there if it the galaxy was destroyed. Not to mention that he lands on a planet. It looks as though he destroyed civilizations, not planets. A feat that isn't very impressive for a Super Saiyan let alone a Legendary one, considering Saiyans are superior to every race, when transformed. We don't even know if Broly got every race in the Galaxy.
As for your statement above, I am comparing Broly to Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks(In build). Cell was able to dodge Trunks due to his level of speed and strength despite Trunks' intense muscularity. Broly is just as large, if not larger yet he can still thrash them. This is due to their levels not being proportionate to Cell and Trunks. Sorry for the confusion.
I still don't know the point you're trying to make solely in regards to Broly, he was able to dominate the Z Fighters because he was more powerful (power and transformations are proportionate to all attributes, with the exception of the Ultimate Super Saiyan transformation). Cell was able to dodge Trunks due to the USSJ transformation reducing Trunks' speed for more power, that's the point of it. Broly's transformation doesn't share the same properties as the USSJ's speed/power compensation, he was able to exceed them in everything simply because he was stronger, I don't see how it would have anything to do with his build? Nor do I see the exact point in comparing him to USSJ Trunks, and it doesn't change anything i've said.
It first connected and impacted with Broly's energy shields, and afterwards it reached the sun from that point in less than nine seconds. The level of speed this results in is over X64 FTL and that's reaction speed far too high for Superman to land a hit on, let alone contend or spar with consistently in combat. Even halving this amount of speed is still out of Superman's speed league, for Broly. This is also a durability feat in the video, as it took the combined strength of SSJ Goku, SSJ2 Gohan's and SSJ Goten's Kamehameha, and Broly was killed from being shot through the sun whilst enduring this amount of energy as well.
For your last statement about the Kamehameha Wave, check out the the video above. 49 min. to 55:40. It took Goku roughly a minute and a half to rev up his most powerful blast and that left him exhausted. When facing Broly, he took a mere 9 seconds. It obviously wasn't of Full-Power.
That's more so anime filler than charge up time, but even if you're right it shouldn't mean Goku's Kamehameha used against Broly was any less than his full power since he had a pretty good idea of how much of a threat Broly was. After the wasted effort, Goku wasn't able to produce anything up to par with that until he absorbed the energy of the other Z Fighters, so he did use at least most of his power. Besides, it wouldn't make a difference in regards to the previous star busting, which was done under a lot of pressure and in a weaker state. On the other hand, Broly let Goku charge up his power, and thus he was able to concentrate his energy rather than getting forced into the earth by Cooler's supernova. Either way, it was a stronger Kamehameha, and Broly laughed.
Superman can scan things immediately. His thought process is higher than almost any life-form
Then i'd like you to point me out to an instance where he scanned his opponent straight away. But it's not as if Broly is going to stand there idly anyway nor is Superman fast enough to hit this supposed weak spot, he'll engage Superman within the first moment of battle, and Superman will be end up in an endless sequence of speed blitzes and energy blasts until Superman is either dead, or weakened enough for Broly to toy with like he did to the Z Fighters.
Note 18:20 in your Broly video above. This proves Broly has a limit. In the Japanese version he stated "My ki is rising. It's overflowing." He then releases the energy that you see in blasts all over New Vegeta. He was releasing it in obvious agony. He is simply waiting to burst. He didn't bleed when Goku hit him, he imploded and released energy, hence the explosion.
I perhaps worded it wrong, his body may have a limit to how much energy he can encompass, but it's able to refill. It shouldn't matter, since Broly is at a stage where he has more energy than he ever had when he took apart the vast majority of the Southern Galaxy (and that's already more than enough energy output for Superman to handle as it is), so using his initial portions of energy that was sufficient to waste a galaxy will be all too easy at a more powerful level.
Broly does get tired too. Superman's stamina is nothing short of phenomenal. Action Comics #761. He fought on Asgard for 1,000 years straight.
Yes, but he doesn't stay tired. And I don't believe that's canon if i'm correct, though you could prove me wrong. I know of Superman's stamina anyway, but it's not an advantage in this battle as Broly's stamina doesn't significantly deteriorate despite releasing inane amounts of power as he does battle, and it's also clearly indicated when he took apart the Southern Galaxy, his Legendary blood gifted him with a supply of energy that couldn't run out which would be a good explanation to having so much power needed to actually cause some damage to a galaxy in the first place.
Now, the Galaxy Busting feat. In the Japanese version King Kai stated that "The Southern Galaxy is under Super Saiyan Attack". This means that it hasn't been destroyed. This is later solidified as you see a plethora of Stars, Moons and Planets when Goku is teleporting to The South Galaxy. He couldn't teleport there if it the galaxy was destroyed. Not to mention that he lands on a planet. It looks as though he destroyed civilizations, not planets. A feat that isn't very impressive for a Super Saiyan let alone a Legendary one, considering Saiyans are superior to every race, when transformed. We don't even know if Broly got every race in the Galaxy.
That's completely insignificant and this assertion is mostly contradicted, several planets and stars doesn't change anything to the most part of the galaxy including over billions of solar systems. What we see on screen wipes out the fact that not the galaxy may not have been completely destroyed, but we weren't able to see anything else that a negligible amount of remians of the galaxy after Broly's demolition, which i'll show again:
So while the galaxy wasn't entirely destroyed down to the last moon, this level of energy and power output is far too big for Superman to handle in the first place even if only several solar systems were destroyed, that's still more than enough to crack Superman's durability. But it's much more than that and while I may understand not considering Broly being able to one shot the thing, his power still adds up to the multi-solar system level at the very least, especially since he achieved his Legendary Super Saiyan state he'd only be stronger. Also, King Kai's immediate reaction to the event would contradict the original Japanese narrations, and the narrations probably shouldn't be taken so literally either, at least because of what happened on screen.
Scan 1: Superman vibrates and leaves an after-image when he moved.
Scan 2: It's as if no one is moving. Broly could see the tiny slave beings and Oolong move despite their average power levels.
The video shows what Travel Speed can do. It tore Lex's Exo-Skeleton apart. Imagine Superman crashing into Broly's body with a fresh Sun-dip.
Only because he was able to react to Doomsday's punch in the first place, not the case against Broly.
That's due to Dragon Ball not focusing on science as much as DC. Also, Superman needed to speed up his senses, which he hasn't done in battle.
I shouldn't have to tell you that's the Flash, not anything relevant to what Superman can do. And even if he could perform that same feat, it's a well known fact that Superman needs to accelerate to achieve significant speed, but Broly won't be letting him catch a breather.
Now, as for my next section this may seem like downplaying, but it's not intended to be. This is going to be nothing more than providing the strong evidence against some of the claims of Superman's speed from what you have said about him being faster than light in combat speeds using a fair and legitimate case on my view of things. There's all the evidence contradicting those assertions, and again, this isn't downplaying nor am I trying to undermine Superman as a character. It's only going to be establishing the fact that Superman can't move, react to or fight at speeds light speed and/or faster because he really shouldn't be able to based on his combat feats, starting out with what he says here:
"I though, i'm Superman, I can hold my breath in space... I can move almost at the speed of light, but I can't find a girl in a city I know like the back of my hand?" Here, Superman basically admits that he can't achieve light seed itself and can only move at speed almost on that level. While we don't know what kind of speed he was exactly referring to, it's more likely he was referencing his travel speed over combat speed, and that would only be semi-accurate but it's a consideration nonetheless. Superman can fly at speeds faster than light, but he can only do so after accelerating:
Which was also a factor in one of your feats, Superman needed a good build-up in order to reach that level of speed. However, I suppose i'm focusing too much on travel feats, because we're fighting here and not racing across the galaxy. So in terms of actual combat speed and although you haven't proved him to be faster than light in this respect, i'll take my own approach to debunking it. Firstly, Superman needed the Flash to lend him some speed in order to outrace a beam that he said was faster than light, to which Superman insisted that he wasn't able to move at:
That applies to mainly short burst movement and achieving initial levels of super speed on the spot, and following this i'll post one last instance that should prove Superman doesn't have light speed reactions. This is involved in the Kepler supernova feat that you posted yourself, "the electromagnetic shockwave came rushing towards Clark at the speed of light", and he wasn't able to react to it. And even though i'll consider the red sun radiation Clark was undergoing in this instance, it still shouldn't negate my point, since he still hasn't reacted to any light speed attack at his regular power:
That should be enough to support my case, Superman is only light speed in perceptions and travel speed via acceleration, but unfortunately he isn't able to achieve those same levels of speed in pure fighting ability nor has he sped up his senses to match the Flash's in a fight either. So i'll reiterate a point I made in an earlier post, Superman probably will be able to see Broly move at light speed, but he won't be able to keep up in terms of limb, movement, reaction or attack speeds on that same level that Broly has on his platter thrice over based on outpacing, reacting to and blitzing Goku (who I have shown to prove himself being faster than light in all aspects of combat speed as of the Frieza Saga), giving him the solid edge of speed against the Man of Steel.
Summary/Conclusion:
Based on how Broly has performed against the Z Fighters, his strong level of speed is likely his second best of advantages over Superman and mostly considering his mega reaction speed.
Although Superman is quite durable, he's reaching out of his ballpark against the levels of power Broly has demonstrated, even at weaker stages.
On the other hand, Broly's durability is enough to handle tanking several of Superman's (since he wouldn't be able to land them nearly as hard or as consistent due to the massive speed edge the Saiyan has under his collar) and completely defend him from Superman's secondary attacks.
Both are comparable enough in stamina, however Broly's stamina is based on his energy and since it's able to regenerate itself after releasing large amounts or simply becoming tired, Superman's stamina won't give him any edge over Broly nor will he be able to outlast him.
If not my last, this will definitely be my second last post and my final will simply be responses to your next rebuttal, since I have little left to say ;P
Great debate so far guys. I am a big dragon ball fan, superman fan, not the biggest broly fan but hes cool.
Debate looks good so far
On his speed with the transformation though, a tidbit of information is his speed is pretty high, He keeps up with SSJ of differnt level's even the ASSJ the one that Goku said was > USSJ because of speed, and Broly actually all of them. So yeah, His speed is basically what is shown, so you guys know.
@pope052: @easternwind: That video doesn't prove much. Broly was already frequently firing spheres during the Beam Struggle. You can't claim that the charging was anime filler. There is too much of a discrepancy between the two waves charging time.
The distinction was apparent too. This is also a durability feat in the video, as it took the combined strength of SSJ Goku, SSJ2 Gohan's and SSJ Goten's Kamehameha, and Broly was killed from being shot through the sun whilst enduring this amount of energy as well.
There are holes in this statement. You stated that I couldn't use Superman's Red Sun scenario as a feat because he passed out. You did the same thing above. Broly took the blast but he died. If we're going by your standards that feat doesn't count. Also Gohan wasn't Super Saiyan 2 here. He had no lightning even when powering up. It can't be an animation error as it was done last movie. Either way, the topic is left to speculation, therefore we cannot give power advantages to a character without concrete proof. As for the blast, Goten was a non-factor as he is only Frieza level. He only added physical force, not power. Gohan also wasn't nearly as strong as when he was a kid. As quoted by Vegeta and Goku at The Tenkaichi Budokai and on Babidi's ship. Here's where we can get Broly's power-set. He had struggles getting Goku to fall. "Why won't you stay down"? Full-Power Super Saiyans were much stronger than the ones who fought Broly. Cell Jr. were at least a bit stronger than Ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta and Trunks. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan could destroy The Cell Jr. with one punch. This means that SSJ2 Gohan could have one-shot the Saiyans who could survive multiple hits from Broly. So, regardless of Gohan's form, he was weaker than the Gohan that beat Cell. Also Super Saiyan 2 can destroy Solar Systems with a Kamehameha while using one hand. Full-Power Super Saiyan Goku could only destroy Earth with his Kamehameha. With that knowledge a Full-Power Super Saiyan Goku and Full-Power Super Saiyan Gohan defeated Broly. Goten simply propelled the blast. Gohan at the Cell Games could destroy Broly. With this knowledge I can prove Superman has higher durability than Broly.
From all of Superman's feats, I know about him surviving another supernova in a separate feat, but he was knocked unconscious straight away.
Calculations have proven that a Supernova less than a light-year from Earth can definitely destroy the planet. I've already established that Super Saiyan 2 is more powerful than Broly. Well, Gohan can't take Globe-Busting explosions. He would've died from Cell's Kamikaze attack therefore he would've been killed by The Supernova as well. Although Superman passed out, he survived the Supernova. Durability: Superman>Teen Gohan>Broly.
As for your statement about Superman's speed. You said yourself that Superman's strikes outclass Broly. Striking derives from speed an momentum. This creates kinetic energy and force. This means you are stating that Superman has more speed in his blows than Broly. Take my scan where Superman is eating with Flash above into perspective. While Superman may not be as fast as Broly in terms of reaction speed. He isn't slow. He can see the blows coming. He can roll with the punch or counter with his superior striking speed.
Both are comparable enough in stamina, however Broly's stamina is based on his energy and since it's able to regenerate itself after releasing large amounts or simply becoming tired, Superman's stamina won't give him any edge over Broly nor will he be able to outlast him.
We don't know if Broly regenerates power because we know when Broly was fighting The Saiyans he hadn't gotten hit once. e simply begins to overload and he has to release it immediately.
As for your comments on blast speeds. Blasts are constantly inconsistent. Guldo had time to run from a blast. Gohan had time to see the blast of Nappa and cry in horror and Piccolo had enough time to run and push Gohan out of the way. Tien is also able to block a blast from Buu that Gohan couldn't despite being leagues weaker than them.
That's more so anime filler than charge up time, but even if you're right it shouldn't mean Goku's Kamehameha used against Broly was any less than his full power since he had a pretty good idea of how much of a threat Broly was.
Goku also knew that Cell could destroy Earth, but he gave him a Senzu Bean anyway.
Also, the galaxy disintegration was simply used to depict Broly's impact on the galaxy,not destruction of it.
Lastly, during Gohan's battle with Broly, the monster showed his susceptibility to heat, getting scratched despite having an energy shield protect him from it. Superman's Heat Vision is hotter than the center of the Sun It has been stated to be off the charts and has heated the Earth.
In summary, Broly is powerful, but his body simply has too many limits and his lack of feats and dependence on speculation have adverse effects in this battle.
Although there's more that could be said, I think it's right that we agreed to end the debate here, as most of the important points on both characters have been covered. It was a really interesting debate mate, but of course let's see everyone else's opinion on it :) Voting's open guys, please take the time to read down through and give at least one reason too, always appreciated:
I think Superman would win but Pope052 put up the better case for his character, debater over character. Some of BatmanHush's posts were just....out of context scans, whereas his last was good but Pope put a better argument, stronger argument with structured points/counters.
Although I think Clark would win pope made a much better case with many structured points and reasons
Whilst batman hush did improve towards the end he was pretty much using scans with not much explanation as to what is going on or how they benefit superman. His posts weren't structured very well either but that's just a minor issue.
@pope052 gets my vote, he did a better job.Batman Hush didn't handle this very good, he needs more than that.Some scans are meh, Broly is much faster than DD.
Thanks to all of you for taking the time to read, and the reasoning given by all of you is most importantly appreciated. So then i'm four votes in the lead, @batman-hush just for the sake of clarification, we'll initially limit the amount of votes to 10/15, but depending on how many users vote this may be changed.
@pope052: you get my vote. With the way the debate was going i felt i who barely knows anything about superman would have done better. There was so much potential for how superman could have win that @batman-hush did not take into consideration. Freeze Breath, Heat Vision, and many of his other powers. And at the very least
Whilst batman hush did improve towards the end he was pretty much using scans with not much explanation as to what is going on or how they benefit superman. His posts weren't structured very well either but that's just a minor issue.
This basically sums my problem with pope's opponent. He could have done so much better in this debate. I'd argue that pope would have lost this one if someone who knew superman well enough was debating this. But i guess that's that.
@pope052 Knows who he's dealing with, i hardly doubt he would get into a DBZ vs Superman CaV without knowing his character capabilities. That said, he also gets my vote.
@pope052: Gets my vote. He did a great job arguing his position and backed it up. Batman-Hush didn't really make much of an argument here, and a lot of his scans were just random.
@pope052: I thought only people with alot of posts were allowed to debate in CAVs?
You get my vote though since you did a much better job of presenting your arguements.
Really? I never heard of that rule before but if it's true, my bad I guess :/ Anyway, thanks to the rest of you guys for reading it through and voting :)
@pope052: gets my vote. Not only is he amazing in CaV's, I also think Broly would win, and because BatmanHush did a poor job at covering his character, I found his posts out of context and had more random scans than anything else. However Pope especially did a great job at explaining Broly's feats and abilities, and that's why he gets my vote. Also, just wanted to point out Pope, you mentioned something about Saiyans not being able to survive in space. I know it's inconsistent at times but Saiyans have shown the ability to survive in space. I believe the only canon time this ever happened was Goku in Battle of Gods, but in non canon material (such as Broly) Broly, Paragus, Nappa, Vegeta and Bardock have all shown the ability to at least breathe in space. So, it could be Saiyans are able to survive in space for short periods of time, or that they just can in general but I'm unsure as the only canon bit was Goku.
@pope052 Gets my vote even though I think Superman would win and has better speed/reaction speed. Someone else should have done superman for reasons already stated..
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