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#1 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

VS

Angel and Buffy

  • Death or KO
  • No Prep
  • Standard Gear
  • Battle here. Starting 100 feet apart during night.

#2 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii Match made. Let me know if you like the Stipulations.

Listing Gear Now.

Angel: Flame Sword, Steel Wrist Spring Stakes, 2 Steel Stakes, Knife.

Buffy: Slayer Scythe, 2 Steel Stakes, Knife, Crossbow.

#3 Edited by RisingBean (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

Hurry up and get to it!

#4 Posted by Cable_Extreme (8597 posts) - - Show Bio

Good luck guys

#5 Posted by jashro44 (19552 posts) - - Show Bio

Never seen super soldier in a challenge a viner before. This should be interesting.

Online
#6 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@risingbean said:

Hurry up and get to it!

Yeah, I will go ahead and start.

@super_soldierxii First off, glad to get a debate in of this match up. Now on paper and on many opinion charts, Wolverine will flat out win. Reasons for this come down to arguments of his skill is so superior because he fought Marvel (Key Word here) supposedly establish Heroes. I am a fan of things not Marvel or DC. Im a fan of things that show the same quality of the big companies feats. Quality > Quantity IMO. Angel and Buffy are seen like common street thugs in fighting skill by non fans. This is false.

Buffy is a very skilled individual. While Wolverine is impressive cutting thru Peak Human Hand Ninjas who drop to even the weakest Avengers for story sake, Buffy and Angel take on low meta human foes with innate fighting skill. Each Vampire has Super Human Strength in the 1500 pound range. Super Speed where they appear as blurs to Humans. There so durable that they can only be killed by Sunlight, Fire, Beheading, or Wooden Stake through the heart. Thats it, that is all that can kill them.

Now we establish how capable these Vampires are, you have to add in the many that are Decades to 100s of years old. Buffy and Angel shows have shown that a computer nerdy geek who becomes a Vampire can gain some Martial Art Skill from the demon side. All these Vampires are not mere thugs in skill.

So to recap, Vampires have skill of some kind, Meta Human Stats, and super hard to kill. Now how does Buffy and Angels stats and skill compare? Very well.

Buffy runs a Vampire Gantlet, staking their hearts with precise blows in droves.

Here she does it again! This is Dare Devil drawn quality skill.

Even Buffy's low budget TV Show has shown incredible skill that puts Fox Movie Wolverine to shame.

Collection of Buffy Fight Scenes.

Buffy is rocking with skill and is considered one of the best fighter on Earth by demons. Know who else is rocking skill? Angel. Angel has existed over 200+ years killing, fighting, and surviving. He has lived in Asia, Europe, and America. He has picked up fighting skills from various Martial Arts and honed them to a edge. The guy is also a official Champion of the Powers that be. When Armageddon comes a knocking, they send there greatest fighter. Angel. Sometimes Spike who is equally skilled, but mostly Angel!

Angel chases one Vampire down, blitzes her, and then to his surprise gets ambushed by 5 more. They Jump him with weapons, yet he kills 3 of them easily before he gets stabbed so the other 2 can run away.

Here Angel takes out another 3 Vamps with style.

Here Angel with only a Stake on him takes out a chunk of a Vampire Army that work for a third world dictator.

Angel easily takes out the very skilled Mahra Demon.

This guy is no joke.

Skip 3:40 to 6:50 Buffy vs Angel. Angel is inanely skilled as is Buffy.

So is Wolverine more skilled becuase of his quanity of feats? Heck no. angel has 5 seasons of Shows and over 100+ comics of feats. Buffy has 7 Seasons of shows and over 200+ Comics of feats. They have quality and quanity as well! Now that is out of the way, I will get to Weapons and Stats next.

#7 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Never seen super soldier in a challenge a viner before. This should be interesting.

Really? I thought he done a few (Scratches head)

#8 Edited by jashro44 (19552 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Never seen super soldier in a challenge a viner before. This should be interesting.

Really? I thought he done a few (Scratches head)

I haven't seen them. He seems to mainly comment on regular threads.

Online
#9 Posted by Funsiized (3585 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: Props on using Buffy, i always have trouble finding her feats from the T.V series. I'll be watching this thread!

#10 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: Props on using Buffy, i always have trouble finding her feats from the T.V series. I'll be watching this thread!

Do not expect too much in Video feats, there hardly is any and I do not own Seasons of Buffy. Only Angel.

#11 Posted by Funsiized (3585 posts) - - Show Bio
#12 Edited by MonsterStomp (15803 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: I've grown to follow your debates now. I need some more education.

Online
#13 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6166 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw:

OK. Here we go.

First off, glad to get a debate in of this match up. Now on paper and on many opinion charts, Wolverine will flat out win.

Already we agree ... this'll work out just fine!

Reasons for this come down to arguments of his skill is so superior because he fought Marvel (Key Word here) supposedly establish Heroes.

First, it comes down to more than this. Comes down to feats, stats, Marvel established "canon" and accomplishments. Second, there is no "supposedly". He has faced, and either defeated, had a more dominant showing, and / or the end result was a foregone conclusion, many of Marvel's A-listers. I understand you're trying to battle uphill against a more "popular" or "popularized" franchise ... but these established A-listers have feats and accomplishments that speak for themselves. I will back that comment. Easily. Worry not.

I am a fan of things not Marvel or DC. Im a fan of things that show the same quality of the big companies feats. Quality > Quantity IMO.

Yeah, but be careful. Because Wolverine's had over 9000 appearances. So consistency > PIS/WIS as well. What works for the goose ...

Angel and Buffy are seen like common street thugs in fighting skill by non fans. This is false.

I don't think so. And I don't think many see them as such. But OK.

Buffy is a very skilled individual. While Wolverine is impressive cutting thru Peak Human Hand Ninjas who drop to even the weakest Avengers for story sake,

Whoa whoa there ... pause. Wolverine's impressive fighting against Strontians, Hulks, Ragnaroks, Sabretooths, Inter dimensional "Furies" designed to wipe out superhuman populations ... along with a plethora of Vampires in the "Curse of the Mutants" storyline (each with equally impressive stats as those of Buffy's ilk). If you want to talk about foes from the Hand Wolverine takes down, leave the fodder ninja alone, and zone in on the undead high near unstoppable juggernaut known as Shikaru Wolverine took out instead please and thank you. Otherwise, you're just low balling. Yeah, this dude right here;

Pretty damn impressive you ask me.

Buffy and Angel take on low meta human foes with innate fighting skill.

Right. So? Again, assuming Wolverine does not? Logan's stepped into a secret hideout filled with superhuman assassins and the worlds most dangerous killers; including Lord & Lady Deathstrike, Mystique, his son Daken, Sauron, Bloodsport and Sabretooth ... gets the drop on all of them, blinds Daken, drops Mystique, blitzes by the others takes out Sabretooth then gets out relatively unscathed before they can mount a counter attack. Speaking of Creed, he's taken out Sabretooth - a 5 tonner with incredible durability, purportedly even faster than Logan, and no small amount of skill and experience in his own right - in every single one of their encounters of late (defeating him handily 6 on 6 of their last encounters). And I'd place Creed far above most of Buffy's meta human foes (I said "most").

Each Vampire has Super Human Strength in the 1500 pound range.

Not near enough strength to bother Logan. Who is himself billed as being in the 2 ton range. He's laughed off Spider-Man's blows, KO'd a 50 tonner Roughouse in a bar fight, and KO'd 15 tonner Caliban in a fist fight ... with ease. It also took 7 consecutive WWHulk blows, point blank, to KO him. And he was back up a few panels later.

Super Speed where they appear as blurs to Humans.

Wolverine's moved faster than Psylocke's mind could follow. Blitzed so fast around Havok, he was also akin to a blur. Moved fast enough to save Blade from a Vampire. Blade flat out said Wolverine was faster than said Vampires.

There so durable that they can only be killed by Sunlight, Fire, Beheading, or Wooden Stake through the heart. Thats it, that is all that can kill them.

Durability, and punching through durability. Wolverine's bread and butter. Wolverine fights with six twelve inch claws. He can behead, impale, chop off limbs ... he fights folks with healing factors all the time as a matter of course as well. He knows how to hit where and how it hurts. And he's fought Vamps before. Marvel Vamps have similar to same M.O as Buffy Vamps do. It's not like he won't know what he's up against.

As to punching through impressive durability, just ask Sabretooth and Hulk (y'know, the dude who survives nukes) how good Wolverine is at hitting all those soft spots;

I don't see Logan's damage output having too many problems. At all.

Now we establish how capable these Vampires are,

Meh. Vampires in general (not Buffy or Angel mind you) are not all that impressive. A notch above the Hand fodder you so eloquently brought up IMHO. Again, Wolverine's slaughtered them by the dozens single handed - superhuman stats, durability and all - went he infiltrated their hideout to rescue Jubilee.

you have to add in the many that are Decades to 100s of years old.

So? Wolverine's over a century old himself. Doesn't amount to much really.

Buffy and Angel shows have shown that a computer nerdy geek who becomes a Vampire can gain some Martial Art Skill from the demon side. All these Vampires are not mere thugs in skill.

I grant you that. And yet, none of the antagonists Wolverine has walked through were bereft of skill either. Even hand ninjas are, well, ninjas.

So to recap, Vampires have skill of some kind, Meta Human Stats, and super hard to kill.

As have the Vampires Wolverine's killed by the handful.Got it. Wouldn't be even entertaining a debate were it not the case.

Now how does Buffy and Angels stats and skill compare? Very well.

To Wolverine's? Honestly, I think their stats will definitely see them contend, in conjunction with their skill and armaments. They can take a few. But not for a majority. Wolverine's more durable than they are, every bit as fast, every bit as strong, has the damage output to drop them and is more skilled in hand to hand.

You have to prove they are better martial artists and that their durability will see them outlasting Wolverine's own, and that their collective damage output will prove more detrimental to Logan than vice versa. With respect, that's a tall order. Best of luck.

So is Wolverine more skilled becuase of his quanity of feats?

Yes. He is. Not do to "quantity" of feats. Do to the quality of opponent he has faced, in both power and skill, and triumphed over.

Heck no. angel has 5 seasons of Shows and over 100+ comics of feats. Buffy has 7 Seasons of shows and over 200+ Comics of feats. They have quality and quanity as well!

Not sure why you keep bringing up quantity. But even so, it doesn't compare to 9000+ showings. Quantity actually works against Logan to a large degree as it breeds inconsistency. Which is what many debater cling to in an attempt to discount his plethora of higher end showings.

You've shown no feats to have me feel they'll take a majority over Wolverine. Tell me which of their accomplishments in particular you'd like me to denounce, and I'll do so.

Cheers.

#14 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Well I just want to say, it seems you took my showings of skill as a attempt to say Wolverine is not skilled. We all know he is skilled because he has faced the best of Marvel Universe. What I am saying he is not so skilled that Buffy and Angel cannot compete due to not being in the more popular Marvel Universe. Lets face it, Popularity = Votes. We see this alot in the Battle of the weeks. I seen tons of arguments for Snake Eyes beating X-23, yet X-23 won due to popular vote by a lopsided landslide. That is what I was referring to. Even Mods comment that DC or Marvel character wins due to nobody knowing well the smaller companies comic line. Its a sad truth and I addressed it. Buffy and Angel have been shown as the top tiers of the World in the establish Buffy Verse.

But if that is not enough of feats of skill I can show more. How about when Angel was force to fight Hell as a Human?

Angel spending 3 months in Hell, rescuing humans where he can against demon forces with no powers.

Angel takes out demons, and even as a human he rescues Conner who has all those Vampire Stats.

Here Angel as a human does his best, and succeeds, to knock Spike down twice. Spike who is right behind Angel in skill. Angel does this to try put up the illusion he is still a Vampire. Then he tanks the devastating attacks of Illyria who is a insanely powerful being.

Here Angel fights against Vampires, and then easily bested the Vampire Gunn. Gun who as a human can take 1-2 Vampires at a time with his skill.

All this is Angel with No Vampire stats at all. Completely human, yet he fooled everyone he fought with his skill alone into thinking he was still a Vampire! All this is easily contributed to his 200+ years existance of fighting Vampire Hunters, Demons, and other Vampires. Then we have Buffy who was born with Innate skill and only had to further hone it by the constant training from the Watchers to get her to the point where she skill wise matches anyone in her world, or the next.

With skill covered pretty well, I suppose I should jump into stats.

Buffy Strength is way beyond Peak human. She is a Slayer, a being with all the strength of the baddest Vampires.

1) Buffy smashes through a huge chunk of brick wall.

2) Buffy slams this demons head so hard into the mooring post, it splinters to pieces! That is thick as a telephone pole.

3) Buffy jumps up fire escapes with a person in one hand.

4) Faith showing her Slayer strength by smashing through concrete while being heavily injured.

5) Buffy smashes Demon through a brick wall.

6) Buffy kicks another Slayer 50 feet away.

7) Buffy smashes a stone statue with a kick.

8) Buffy kicks this Vampire 20 feet in the air.

9) Buffy puts her fist through the giant beetle's exo skeleton head.

10) Buffy kicks this door so hard, the wood sticks in the demon's back.

11) Buffy punches through another door again.

12) Buffy with one hand, throws a human of average weight easily 15 feet to the roof above.

Buffy is easily in the Captain America strength feats. In no way is Wolverine overpowering her with his own strength. Well how about Buffy Summers speed?

1) Here she is speed blitzing a Demon with her best moves.

2) Dodges gun fore from Alexia, the most highly train Agent of the Watchers, in this she also had Slayer like stats due to Magic Enhancements.

3) Twists around the gunfire of this Demon.

4) Here Buffy dodges a entire American Military gun fire. I was in the military, we are hardly jobbers.

5) Here she dodges multiple attacks from all sides with ease. These attack tendrils are whipping about at here and attack at once.

6) blitzes those blur speed Vampires in large number with a accurate stake to each heart before they can counter attack.

She is a Slayer and every bit of her feats are impressive as Wolverines own. You will disagree, but I believe so as he is not pushing Mach 2 in speeds at all.

Her durability to damage is also high. You will notice not too many feats here, there is a reason for this, she does not take damage. She uses speed and skill to avoid damage at all costs. However when she does get hit with crazy force, she keeps chugging.

1) Buffy gets slammed with a Coffin. No effect. Even get a Meat Clever in her wirst, merely annoys her as it fails to cut through the bone.

2) Buffy gets slammed with enough force to smash this tree all the way through, she is winded, but not even KOed.

3) Buffy fights a being with genuine Action Comics Superman powers. He throws her with such force and she smashes through all that stone. She is hurting but not out of the fight or KOed.

4) Another Slayer with the Slayer powers is hit by a Semi Truck. No major Damage, just a headache afterwards.

5) Buffy tanks this insane magical explosion with some burns.

Point is she is very durable, and can tank any blunt damage Wolverine can dish out.

All this so far is Buffy. What about Angel who is a genuine Vampire? Angel Strength is roughly same as Buffy.

1) Cuts almost this whole large demon in half with a single blow.

2) Kicks this resurrected cops head off with a kick.

3) Kicks this reinforced door to splinters.

4) Kicks this punching bag so hard that the chain snaps, and it flies to the other side of the room.

5) Angel rips out a Iron grate in the sewers.

6) Kicks another door to splinters and then puts his fist through another demons chest.

7) Plows through a Double Wooden to splinters.

8) Slams these guys with enough force to shatter the concrete wall.

9) Smashes a solid stone sculpture to pieces with his fist.

10) Breaks another Vampires arm with one hand.

11-12) Has 4 Vampires dog pile him, he throws them all off and into the walls.

Angel has crazy super strength which he uses to its fullest in the show and comics. Add to this his dangerous speed.

1) Angel is 50+ feet away from Lilah. He throws a re bar, killing a psychic. She looks back at him, looks forward real quick, then back again. Angel covers the distance in a blink.

2) Angels speed blitzes 2 humans as a blur from the other side of the room.

1) A lower random Vampire blitzing 3 cops as a blur before they can fire there guns.

2) Spike, who is equals with Angel, is seen here blitzing a human who was sprinting away. He was clrealy drawn as a blur to catch up to her in a flash.

3) Angel chasing another Vampire who is running for their life. He easily blitzes the Vampire chick even tho Vampires are blurs to humans.

4) Angel with his back turned catches a Crossbow Bolt fired less than 20 feet away.

5) Angel easily side steps this Crossbow Bolt shot at him as well the gunfire of these freedom fighters. He then blitzes them before they can shoot again.

6) Faith fires a Bullet Stake that Angel easily sidesteps after it is fired from less than 15 feet away.

7) Angel gets thrown out of a window by Illyria. Illyria then slows time so much that Angels free fall was dead still. Yet Spike still saw her as a blur with those Vampire stats.

Point is angel is so far superior to peak humans in speed and stats. He is super human in them. He is not just superior in speed. While Wolverine does have the super healing factor and Adamantium skeleton, Angel is a Vampire who cannot be killed or harm except Decapitation, Sunlight, Fire, or a wooden Stake through the heart. That is it. He is also very hard to KO.

1) Angel gets hit by Lindsye's 1/2 ton truck that was moving at high speeds.Then Lindsey backs up at top speed and runs Angel's body over. Angel just gets up after this only to be hit with a sledge hammer all over, and then Angel jumps up and beats Lindsey's butt.

2) Gets hit in the face with a dumpster! No big deal to him.

3) Angel gets chomped on by a large Demon, no major damage.

4) Angel gets thrown out of a Sky Scraper, hits the ground, and makes his way back up.

5) Jumps out of a Skyscraper, lands face first, and then gets back up.

6) Shot in the back and does not flinch.

7) The vampire Spike shows the same feat with a shotgun.

8) Angel gets hit with so much force he sends all the iron and steel flying as well shatters the concrete. He gets right back up.

9) Angel gets run through the chest with a sword and just becomes irritated about it.

Point is your not putting him down without dismemberment. Something I doubt Wolverine can do with Angel actively using his skill to keep it from happening. Over the powers and stats of Buffy and Angel combine with their own skill could easily put Wolverine down or restrained.

#15 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Just wanted to let you know I added more to my post from yesterday.

#16 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6166 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Just wanted to let you know I added more to my post from yesterday.

OK. I won't get to it tonight. I'll be sure to get back to you between now and Sunday. Cheers.

#17 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio
#18 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6166 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw:

Really, I feel your response was more of a mini respect thread than an actual overture to a debate. You didn't address 90% of the points I made, whereas I took each point you made and addressed them piecemeal one by one. As such, my points stand and remain unchallenged.

What you are doing, is you are showing a series of scans to establish their capabilities. I get that. It would be nice to see a little more as to how they relate to them taking down Wolverine for a majority win.

Well I just want to say, it seems you took my showings of skill as a attempt to say Wolverine is not skilled.

I pointed out what you said, quoted you exactly, and responded in kind. It's above for all to see. You tried intimating that, and I quote; "Wolverine is impressive cutting thru Peak Human Hand Ninjas who drop to even the weakest Avengers for story sake" which was low balling his skill, then you compared this to Buffy & Angel stating "Buffy and Angel take on low meta human foes with innate fighting skill" ... as though somehow Wolverine does not ... so I addressed what you said. Further, I find Wolverine's level of foe to be considerably more impressive and pointed a handful of them out.

We all know he is skilled because he has faced the best of Marvel Universe.

OK then. Now that that's been established.

What I am saying he is not so skilled that Buffy and Angel cannot compete due to not being in the more popular Marvel Universe.

They can compete. They just can't win a majority. And it has nothing to do with "popularity" and more to do with cumulative feats, power-sets and abilities each being drawn off one another.

Lets face it, Popularity = Votes.

In some cases, yes. But then I just got out of a thread wherein 90% of the Viners admitted Omega Red would, under most conditions, mop the floor with Spider-Man. So there's something to be said about power-sets and skills speaking for themselves. Especially in the battle threads where the more hardcore debaters have learned to leave their fanboy at the door.

We see this alot in the Battle of the weeks.

Again, see above. Heck, even Batman actually loses therein from time to time! Lol.

I seen tons of arguments for Snake Eyes beating X-23, yet X-23 won due to popular vote by a lopsided landslide. That is what I was referring to. Even Mods comment that DC or Marvel character wins due to nobody knowing well the smaller companies comic line. Its a sad truth and I addressed it.

Snake Eyes versus X-23 is extremely debatable. X-23's durability is off the charts. Gets hit by class 100's and keeps on trucking. Survives explosion intact. Moves with blurred speed as well and is extremely skilled (billed as amongst the most skilled to have come out of the Weapon X program. No mean feat.) Snake Eyes would have to behead her to win (which he can do admittedly). Laura need only land one strike just about anywhere. So you may be underplaying Laura just a tad in being so incredulous with regards the results of that thread.

Buffy and Angel have been shown as the top tiers of the World in the establish Buffy Verse.

Yeah, but the Buffy Verse is rife with far, far fewer powerhouses with which to draw their prowess against. It's not as 'super powered' if you will as Marvel and certainly not as much so as DC. It's like trying to compare Nolan's Batman to the DC comic's version - to lend the only similar analogy that comes to mind.

As to the feats you show, many of them sound more impressive in your synopsis than they are in reality. Even your very first string, where you state;

But if that is not enough of feats of skill I can show more. How about when Angel was force to fight Hell as a Human?

Right. He takes one swing at a demon from behind (a demon preoccupied with his potential prey), takes one more sword swipe, then is overwhelmed right away ... in his own words, he is just one man ... "one man with a very big dragon." Dragon which saved his pinned and helpless arse. Really not impressive at all.

Angel takes out demons, and even as a human he rescues Conner who has all those Vampire Stats

Actually, Conner rescued him by beheading the demon that was after him. All I saw Angel do was peg a demon in the eye with a crossbow bolt. Again, fairly weak showing. Nothing to put him anywhere near Wolverine skill-wise. I find it fun that you talk about Wolverine taking out mostly fodder, then show Angel & Buffy doing mostly the same. Taking out no-name demon henchmen fodder. Something Kitty Pride and Jubilee have done as prepubescent teens.

Here Angel as a human does his best, and succeeds, to knock Spike down twice. Spike who is right behind Angel in skill. Angel does this to try put up the illusion he is still a Vampire. Then he tanks the devastating attacks of Illyria who is a insanely powerful being.

Spike was more interested in talking than fighting. Takes a punch. Talks. Takes a second punch. Talks some more. And all I saw afterward was Ilyria absolutely manhandling and humiliating Angel till he's saved, once again, by the dragon. She could have killed him at will. Saved by plot.

All this is Angel with No Vampire stats at all. Completely human, yet he fooled everyone he fought with his skill alone into thinking he was still a Vampire!

No. It was mentioned a few times that he seemed less, seemed diminished ... and again, when the scans are looked at for what they are, they are far, far from impressive. Again, I've seen Kitty or Jubilee hold their own against supers just as good, if not better, hand to hand. No one would peg either as being anywhere near Wolverine's level.

Buffy Strength is way beyond Peak human. She is a Slayer, a being with all the strength of the baddest Vampires.

So does Wolverine. He simply doesn't need it here. And really, her strength will be inconsequential in this battle. If Kaine nearly breaks his hand punching Logan's adamantium laced skull;

I don't think Buffy will fare much better (he's a 25 tonner). Blunt force and strength levels are really irrelevant to the debate at hand. So I will not comment more on the strength portion of your "respect thread" save to say Wolverine has accomplished every bit as much, and in many cases more.

Buffy is easily in the Captain America strength feats. In no way is Wolverine overpowering her with his own strength.

Wolverine's stronger than Captain America by most accounts. Certainly by Marvel's as he's a 4 rating (low level superhuman) whereas Steve is a 3 (max 800lbs). Regardless, Wolverine doesn't have to overpower her with his strength. He just has to stab her. Repeatedly. The best at what he does and alla that ...

As to your speed feats;

Point is angel is so far superior to peak humans in speed and stats. He is super human in them. He is not just superior in speed

I get that. So is Wolverine.You don't need to show how he's superior to peak humans, or humans, you need to show how his combat speed is superior to Wolverine's to the extent he and Buffy can steal a majority win. Nothing you've shown establishes that.

Again, you've shown nothing to see them having anywhere near an advantage over Logan; Wolverine's blitzed many times, moved faster than the eye could follow, disappeared in plain sight (from goons, yes, but also from Nightcrawler and Nuke) cleared 30 foot distances almost instantaneously, blocked numerous bullets moving at 800 meters per second with claws swipes, landed a precision cut on Storm's cloak while she was flying by at hurricane wind speeds, landed multiple blows to steel training dummies, destroying them in less time than it took his cigars to fall back into his waiting hands ... and pulls of stunts like this as a matter of course;

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/9347/wolverine18220lowresrb7.jpghttp://img481.imageshack.us/img481/2038/fasttthp5.jpg

The list goes on. As aforementioned, Blade flat out stated Wolverine moves faster than Marvel's Vamps. He is also billed by Marvel as having combat reflexes that can contend with the likes of Spider-Man (precog and all). And has.

Wolverine's combat speed is easily enough to keep up with the duo. Not a fan of re-posting feats, as a lot of them are common knowledge at this point. However, if there are any in particular I've mentioned that you'd like to see, let me know.

I'm kind of fond of this little known feat from back in the Claremont days (just to show I'm not just hung on his more modern showings);

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/7726/elfcatchinlv7.jpg

Wolverine moves with enough speed to cut out a portion of steel wall, then use it to catch Kurt before he lands. Also a fairly impressive strength feat. Key words are "unbelievable speed" and "in less time than it takes to tell".

While Wolverine does have the super healing factor and Adamantium skeleton, Angel is a Vampire who cannot be killed or harm except Decapitation, Sunlight, Fire, or a wooden Stake through the heart. That is it. He is also very hard to KO.

You're acting like 12 inch blades wouldn't slow him down. They will. Wolverine can cut off limbs, and claws through the head would hinder enough to constitute a KO - a fist to the face in a fight with Wolverine means you pretty much lose your head. Decapitation is far from an unfeasible option.

Point is your not putting him down without dismemberment.

Not really. You posted feats showing how Angel soaks blunt force trauma. Wolverine will be punching him in the fact with claws out. Show him easily soaking blades through his head without dropping. And regardless, dismemberment is the exact type of damage output six twelve inch blades dish out. So I fail to see the problem.

Over the powers and stats of Buffy and Angel combine with their own skill could easily put Wolverine down or restrained.

Not even close. What have you shown states they can content with Wolverine's type of damage output? Why are they more skilled exactly? How will they punch through Wolverine's durability to put him down before they get put down?

Just a few questions left wholly unanswered by you I'm afraid.

#20 Edited by laflux (14112 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44 said:

Never seen super soldier in a challenge a viner before. This should be interesting.

this, but when I say the pics I thought he was going to use ult wolverine, so now I'm a bit sad.

#21 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Well I can also see we have to major debate styles here. I like to show proof of claims while most of your points is simply,

You don't need to show how he's superior to peak humans, or humans, you need to show how his combat speed is superior to Wolverine's to the extent he and Buffy can steal a majority win. Nothing you've shown establishes that.

Well I am trying to point out with proof (most people here know next to nothing on Buffy or Angel in comics) how they compare. I think I proved nicely they are more even speed which is important.

Or this,

As to the feats you show, many of them sound more impressive in your synopsis than they are in reality. Even your very first string, where you state;

But if that is not enough of feats of skill I can show more. How about when Angel was force to fight Hell as a Human?

Right. He takes one swing at a demon from behind (a demon preoccupied with his potential prey), takes one more sword swipe, then is overwhelmed right away ... in his own words, he is just one man ... "one man with a very big dragon." Dragon which saved his pinned and helpless arse. Really not impressive at all.

This is impressive as he compete with meta humans being on any level as a average peak human is nothing short of incredible. He been doing ot for 3 months ontop of that. I showed him fighting the Vampire Gun, as well throwing a Stake (not a crossbow) into a Demon Lords eyes. Very impressive. Punking Spike who has Vampire stats and near skill of Angel.

So why is this not proof? Because your unimpressed by it?

It's not as 'super powered' if you will as Marvel and certainly not as much so as DC. It's like trying to compare Nolan's Batman to the DC comic's version - to lend the only similar analogy that comes to mind.

I disagree with this as well. There is plenty time where Gods or Super Demons have nearly ended time and space. There was a whole season when Buffy and Angel had Superman powers. This is perspective only. Heck i know for a fact if we discuss people like say Darth Vader or Yoda from Star Wars universe on a battle thread, people will say they win more often than not against Wolverine. Yet they have no Thor or Hulk level beings at all. But oh no, Buffy Universe which does have Dr. Strange level beings and Thing level threats is simply inferior somehow. How many times does Wolverine fight say Hulk and either loses or mostly gets manhandled? When has Wolverine beaten say Thor? Just because more super power beings live in a universe does not mean Wolverine is better, as he is still and always will be inferior to said power houses. He is street level. There he shall remain.

In fact reading most of your post, it kinda reads as a giant low ball of the scans.

No. It was mentioned a few times that he seemed less, seemed diminished ... and again, when the scans are looked at for what they are, they are far, far from impressive. Again, I've seen Kitty or Jubilee hold their own against supers just as good, if not better, hand to hand. No one would peg either as being anywhere near Wolverine's level.

All your doing is tearing apart the scans. I could easily low ball Wolverine with his Inconsistent feats and showings from New Avengers, Ennis works, ect. all Canon to his character. Yet you will defend that to high hell as CIS, PIS, or Bias of the writer. Well at least Buffy and Angel TV show was all due to Budget and in their comics they simply rock! So forgive me if I do not see the point in trying to work on your points. We will let voters decide who they think is convinced of winning at the end of the day.

So now I showed stats, lets look at real feats. Starting with Angel battles which are comparable to Marvel and DC street levels Heroes.

Angel lets a bunch of cultist beat on him till the information he is looking for comes to light, then easily disposes of them without taking another hit.

Wanna see more super powered beings? There was this time when Angel faces a Dragon, and a powerful Demon who wants to keep Angel from attacking the Dragon.

Here Angel with little to know gear kills off a portion of a dictators Vampire Army while making his way to the castle.

Angel easily outdoes Xin. A ancient vampire of Chinese Martial Arts. Angel even fooled him by playing dumb to find out if he was the real Xin by blitzing him on the table.

Angel with no weapon, takes on 3 Super powerful beings of Magic. He not only survives with skill alone, but holds his own and ends the Lava being.

Angel skill is very much present and shown. He has faced "Super Being" foes, super large group of foes, and highly trained foes. He does a very good job putting them down. As for Buffy, she has faced many super beings like Glory, Twilight, Dark Willow, and more.

Buffy takes down a super strength and durable demon.

Buffy in this fights a very powerful Demon who is immortal and cannot be killed without a special blade. Buffy puts this immortal demon down more than a few times before another chosen warrior sucker punches her.

Buffy takes on Vampires with no weapons other than what she could find.

Here Buffy is ready for bed, half naked, and faces a horde of Vampires in her kitchen while unprepared. She easily prevails.

Her and another Slayer has taken on a entire military army!

Buffy takes out powerful Stone Gargoyles with ease, and no weapons.

Buffy with no Adamantium Bones, Claws, or a Healing Factor that tanks everything like a crutch beats these very Marvel Street Level threats. Strangely in recent comics Wolverine was stated by Black Panther in a non Ennis run that he relies on his healing factor to much. He tanks attacks, which is very well shown in many Wolverine vs whoever threads. One of the best ways of beating Wolverine is through the heart. Something Kaine very much did to KO Wolverine.

Thats is great news as Buffy and Angel in 60% of their fights must stab the heart of foes to beat them.

Add to that I seen Wolverine slow down a bit with throat stabs. This is also great as Angel and Buffy are use to neck slicing their foes, and this could give them a good opening for a heart stab. Wolverine Healing factor is not unbeatable either. Example of this is New Avengers where he fights The Hood. The Hood in the end toss Wolverine in his demon form after getting stabbed, but Wolverine being shot to hell was in no shape to go after Hood as he stated.

His Healing factor has been taxed many times in comics to the point where Wolverine slows down. His Healing factor itself is not unbeatable. Something Angel and Buffy can very well do with a 2 on 1 scenario and the gear they have. With 2 on 1 fight of near equal skill, strength, and speed, I can see that happening all to easy.

#22 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6166 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw:

Well I am trying to point out with proof (most people here know next to nothing on Buffy or Angel in comics) how they compare. I think I proved nicely they are more even speed which is important.

Based on what you've shown, they can hold up, but do not equal or surpass in any one area.

This is impressive as he compete with meta humans being on any level as a average peak human is nothing short of incredible.

No. He competed mostly with demon fodder. No one or nothing of note, merit or real worth in your opening synopsis.

I showed him fighting the Vampire Gun,

What has Gun done (rhyme was purposeful) to lead us to believe fighting him is oh so impressive? Again, I can show lil ole prepubescent Jubilee fighting meta goons with no feats to substantiate them as worthy antagonists as well.

as well throwing a Stake (not a crossbow) into a Demon Lords eyes. Very impressive.

I saw him shoot a demon with a crossbow bolt. Either way, given the context, it wasn't very impressive at all. Taking a Strontian (Gladiator level powers) down with ones index finger? That's impressive;

"Me, I've studied how to kill pretty much everything that walk, flies or slithers in this big ole universe" sayeth Logan. Yeah. Not just hyperbole either, as he backs it up right there and then. Wolverine's known as the deadliest earth worlder, not just on his own planet, but also throughout various of the known universe's species. Breakworld's Powerlord Krunn, ruler of his entire planet due to his prowess in combat (ruler is decided by who is the greatest warrior through trials of combat), was walking through the X-Men ... till a perpetually phased Kitty led him to Wolverine (Krunn was likewise in stealth mode and was supposed to be undetectable);

It was Wolverine who took his arm in their first confrontation. Intentionally just his arm. When he means to, when he doesn't hold back, he dismembers. In this, their second run in, Krunn was losing, badly. Wolverine had him beat, and Krunn had to resort to trickery and advanced tech to stop Logan. Good thing he had prepped to face Wolverine. To establish Krunn as a game player, and not just bill this feat as impressive based solely on Krunn's hyperbole rep as Powerlord, here's how easily Krunn took down an (admittedly) unarmored Colossus, who has trained in combat since joining the X-Men, was a champion level gymnast in Russia, and is no slouch in the hand to hand department (using his skill to defeat Sasquatch and even to hold his own against Savage Hulk in the past);

He pretty much one shots him. This was a Peter fighting to save Kitty too.

Punking Spike who has Vampire stats and near skill of Angel.

Again, Spike was obviously not overly interested in a confrontation. He punched a nonplussed Spike twice. Spike was never in any danger of getting taken out. It's ho hum to be blunt.

So why is this not proof? Because your unimpressed by it?

No. It's not impressive insofar as showing anything of merit to warrant them taking a majority in a martial battle against Wolverine - especially considering the context justly, and not your buttered up rendition. And I clearly stated why I found the showings unimpressive. How does Angel decking a pretty much disinterested Spike equate to him being impressive enough to do anything meaningful to Wolverine?

I disagree with this as well. There is plenty time where Gods or Super Demons have nearly ended time and space.There was a whole season when Buffy and Angel had Superman powers.

I realize. Still no where near the same level as Marvel or DC U's.

This is perspective only. Heck i know for a fact if we discuss people like say Darth Vader or Yoda from Star Wars universe on a battle thread, people will say they win more often than not against Wolverine.

I should hope so. They would absolutely humiliate (especially Yoda) Buffy and Angel as well.

Yet they have no Thor or Hulk level beings at all.

You're comparing apples to oranges there and thus the point is an empty one. Yoda is a different kind of creature altogether to "Hulk". Which is why he flat out demolishes Wolverine whereas due to the nature of their respective power-sets, Wolverine has done himself proud on a few occasions against the Hulk. Grandmaster Luke is a planetary level threat in the Star Wars universe. I'd say they house their fair share of power players as well.

But oh no, Buffy Universe which does have Dr. Strange level beings and Thing level threats is simply inferior somehow.

Less impressive, yes.

How many times does Wolverine fight say Hulk and either loses or mostly gets manhandled?

Not too many actually. He's acquitted himself quite well against many incarnations of Hulk over the years (even flat out dropping Grey Hulk). He had the upper-hand on Red Hulk as well, blinding him and having him on the ropes till Red Shulk intervened. Very impressive feats against the Hulk all things considered. His skills and power-set measure up nicely to Hulk's own. But yeah, ultimately, Wolverine should lose a majority to Savage Hulk. And? Wolverine's only been absolutely manhandled once ... and that was by WWHulk. If you need to be shown how impressive Wolverine's held up against the likes of Hulk, I can do that ...

When has Wolverine beaten say Thor?

He would never beat Thor. Obviously. But, he has humiliated Thor's combat prowess and speed by proving his own significantly superior;

Notice Thor himself, the greatest warrior on Asgard, acknowledges Wolverine to be just about the deadliest Midgard has to offer. Wolverine, believing Thor to be Sabretooth, comments on how slow he's gotten. In a hand to hand fight, Wolverine was holding his own (even cutting through Thor's durability) till Thor had had enough, takes to the air, and summons the powers of Mjolnir;

Thor wins (again, obviously) but only based on power levels alone. Notice Wolverine soak a hammer blow, and then a lightening strike ... and still struggle to his feet. But yeah, Angle punched Spike twice in the face so ...

Wolverine's even held his own against Ragnarok, a Thor clone, taking the brunt of the damage from him for his team, stabbing him in the arm, then through the neck and chest, doing the majority of the damage until Iron Fist drops him with a coupe de grace;

Notice in the opening panel, Wolverine is the only who reacts fast enough, jumping at least 20 feet into the air to confront Ragnarok in the opening of the battle. The rest of the Avengers are caught in the lightening blast and need to be saved by Spider-Man while Wolverine is left to fight alone (impaling Ragnarok in the chest);

Wolverine soaks another full on hammer strike and stabs Ragnarok through the arm. This is when things really heat up;

Soaks another point blank hammer blow. Grabs the cloak to stay in the fight (no giving up), stabs Ragnarok through the throat, had soaked a lightening blast in the panel prior, then the Avengers finally enter the fray. Spider-Man catches a still conscious Wolverine, raring to get back in the fight, but Wolverine's body is burning so hot, Spider-Man can't even hold onto him ... so yeah, Wolverine's got some very impressive showings against these power houses you mentioned and is clearly a super of worth and merit even in their "esteemed" presence.

Just because more super power beings live in a universe does not mean Wolverine is better,

It does when he's stood toe to toe with said beings and has held his own, won, or lost a hard fought battle in ways Buffy and / or Angel could only dream.

as he is still and always will be inferior to said power houses.

Which is why those feats are so damn impressive and bespeak top tier skill, deadly damage output and godly durability.

He is street level. There he shall remain.

Along with Spider-Man & Iron Fist, he's arguably Marvel's king of the street level roost. A more impressive roost than the Buffy verse to be sure. So how does stating that mean Buffy & Angel win a majority?

All your doing is tearing apart the scans.

All you were doing was providing scans. I work with what I'm given. But they were easily torn through to be frank.

I could easily low ball Wolverine with his Inconsistent feats and showings from New Avengers, Ennis works, ect. all Canon to his character.

And I could easily show them as inconsistent by posting a plethora of contradictory feats, proving why they are indeed PIS and WIS - especially whence drawn against Wolverine's established power-set and skill-set. Glad to hear you're beyond that tactic.

Yet you will defend that to high hell as CIS, PIS, or Bias of the writer.

No. I would defend intelligently and succinctly with feats and established character development.

Well at least Buffy and Angel TV show was all due to Budget and in their comics they simply rock!

OK. The show rocked for you despite low budget. Glad you enjoyed it. If you scroll up, you`ll realize I was criticizing your comic book showings though, not the T.V. show.

So forgive me if I do not see the point in trying to work on your points. We will let voters decide who they think is convinced of winning at the end of the day.

You're free to decide which points need to addressed to be sure. Nothing to forgive. And of course, the Viners are entitled to their opinions. Including whether or not you've adequately addressed my points.

Buffy with no Adamantium Bones, Claws, or a Healing Factor that tanks everything like a crutch beats these very Marvel Street Level threats.

Not twelve inch claws through the head she doesn't.

One of the best ways of beating Wolverine is through the heart. Something Kaine very much did to KO Wolverine.

A) Kaine is far faster and far stronger than both Buffy & Angel, and used the powers of The Other in his fight with Wolverine and B) the fight was a staged one, Wolverine was supposed to lose. If stabbing him through the heart was so damn easy, his hundreds of enemies would have done so long ago. It was part of their established plan to have Logan lose. Wolverine's had his heart pierced before and even displaced in his chest and was in the fight a panel later. So no dice on that one.

Strangely in recent comics Wolverine was stated by Black Panther in a non Ennis run that he relies on his healing factor to much. He tanks attacks, which is very well shown in many Wolverine vs whoever threads.

OK. Here's where your comments betray a lack of depth and insight into the character. This story arc is a recent one done by Cornell. Wolverine doesn't have his healing factor, and is reeling psychologically as a result. He's not himself, and not fighting like himself. Yes, he uses his durability to expedite the butt whooping in his fights, as Master Po (his Kung Fu master) so eloquently put it, and this because he can. Yes, it's grown to be part of his very effective fighting style over the decades. But when he really needs to avoid (usually when his healing factor is depleted), he does so and has done so many times.

Good news here is, he has his healing factor, and he can tank most of Buffy and Angel's attacks (at least those you've shown thus far herein) due to said healing factor and the metal. They cannot say the same for him (again, based on feats shown herein).

Thats is great news as Buffy and Angel in 60% of their fights must stab the heart of foes to beat them

Not foes like Wolverine. Who's heart is protected by an adamantium laced ribcage and sternum. Not to mention the fact she has to fight her way past six twelve inch blades wielded by one of the deadliest Marvel earth has to offer. Whereas for Wolverine ... a simple punch to the face claws out will suffice.

His Healing factor has been taxed many times in comics to the point where Wolverine slows down. His Healing factor itself is not unbeatable. Something Angel and Buffy can very well do with a 2 on 1 scenario and the gear they have. With 2 on 1 fight of near equal skill, strength, and speed, I can see that happening all to easy.

They won't last long enough to tax his healing factor to that extent. Their durability is still found wanting compared to Logan's damage output. Their skill has not been shown to be anywhere near Logan's level and Wolverine's durability will hold more than long enough for him to land ONE simple punch to the face claws out ...

Once one of them drops, the other will be considerably out of his / her depths and will soon follow.

#23 Posted by nick_hero22 (6733 posts) - - Show Bio

Finally, an interesting battle on the Vine.

#24 Edited by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19908 posts) - - Show Bio

Finally, an interesting battle on the Vine.

#25 Posted by WarBlade539 (4495 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Awesome debating, dude and I agree with you completely. But is it fair to use the 'vs Thor' argument. Seeing how Thor one-shots Daken in Seige, who is more or less equal to his daddy...isn't Wolverine lasting more than a minute against Thor PIS? Just clarifying.

#26 Edited by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii:

No. He competed mostly with demon fodder. No one or nothing of note, merit or real worth in your opening synopsis.

I think the fact Angel is fighting 10 foot tall Demons with mass 3 times that of a Human Being makes them more than Fodder. The fact most of these Demons live in Hell and cannot survive without killing other foes every hour makes them more than Fodder unlike the street thugs most Marvel street Fighters face.

What has Gun done (rhyme was purposeful) to lead us to believe fighting him is oh so impressive? Again, I can show lil ole prepubescent Jubilee fighting meta goons with no feats to substantiate them as worthy antagonists as well.

So you know next to nothing on Gunn I assume. He is a very adept fighter in Angel series.

Gun is a human who grew up killing Vampires on the streets. He has as a Human 1 on 1 many Vampires and win. he has slain Demons that even Angel as a Vampire had a hard time with. He also with Wesley slayed a 20 foot tall, two headed, fire breathing demon. He has 5 seasons of feats fighting super human foes with below Peak Human stats.

He is skilled, smart, and most importantly a season fighter. Yet Angel proves the better when Gunn had Vampire stats added to his resume and Angel was a mere Human.

I saw him shoot a demon with a crossbow bolt. Either way, given the context, it wasn't very impressive at all. Taking a Strontian (Gladiator level powers) down with ones index finger? That's impressive;

MY bad thought you meant this scan.

Where Angel casually throws a stake and kills the charging Demon Lord to be. As a mere human.

"Me, I've studied how to kill pretty much everything that walk, flies or slithers in this big ole universe" sayeth Logan. Yeah. Not just hyperbole either, as he backs it up right there and then. Wolverine's known as the deadliest earth worlder, not just on his own planet, but also throughout various of the known universe's species. Breakworld's Powerlord Krunn, ruler of his entire planet due to his prowess in combat (ruler is decided by who is the greatest warrior through trials of combat), was walking through the X-Men ... till a perpetually phased Kitty led him to Wolverine (Krunn was likewise in stealth mode and was supposed to be undetectable);

It was Wolverine who took his arm in their first confrontation. Intentionally just his arm. When he means to, when he doesn't hold back, he dismembers. In this, their second run in, Krunn was losing, badly. Wolverine had him beat, and Krunn had to resort to trickery and advanced tech to stop Logan. Good thing he had prepped to face Wolverine. To establish Krunn as a game player, and not just bill this feat as impressive based solely on Krunn's hyperbole rep as Powerlord, here's how easily Krunn took down an (admittedly) unarmored Colossus, who has trained in combat since joining the X-Men, was a champion level gymnast in Russia, and is no slouch in the hand to hand department (using his skill to defeat Sasquatch and even to hold his own against Savage Hulk in the past);

I have read Leonardo beating the champions of the Battle Nexus, a arena where the Dimensions best warriors fight at, and came out on top against super meta human foes with his 2 Swords. I guess Leonardo can beat Wolverine then right?

That is the logic I get from this. Angel is a Champion, that means a Champion of the Powers That Be as their best warrior to battle across dimensions and time. Angel and Buffy has fought and bested other Dimension best warriors and beings.

Whats your point here?

Again, Spike was obviously not overly interested in a confrontation. He punched a nonplussed Spike twice. Spike was never in any danger of getting taken out. It's ho hum to be blunt.

If u\you know Spike, which you don't, he hates being upstage by Angel in any way. They thrive off competing who is better than who. What you just stated is totally out of character.

It be like Sabertooth letting Logan hit him and not care that people saw it.

No. It's not impressive insofar as showing anything of merit to warrant them taking a majority in a martial battle against Wolverine - especially considering the context justly, and not your buttered up rendition. And I clearly stated why I found the showings unimpressive. How does Angel decking a pretty much disinterested Spike equate to him being impressive enough to do anything meaningful to Wolverine?

So like I said, your simply unimpressed because nothing here is Marvel related? Nothing Wolverine involved with or ever had contact with. You just dismissed it.

Ok.

I realize. Still no where near the same level as Marvel or DC U's.

Who give a flying leap frog? More super beings in a universe does not mean Wolverine is better. That is the laziest and most arrogant argument yet.

I should hope so. They would absolutely humiliate (especially Yoda) Buffy and Angel as well.

But yet they have no Thor level beings at all. Angel and Buffy Universe do. Your being Hypocritical now.

You're comparing apples to oranges there and thus the point is an empty one. Yoda is a different kind of creature altogether to "Hulk". Which is why he flat out demolishes Wolverine whereas due to the nature of their respective power-sets, Wolverine has done himself proud on a few occasions against the Hulk. Grandmaster Luke is a planetary level threat in the Star Wars universe. I'd say they house their fair share of power players as well.

So in the end, you aknowledge Star Wars win because of the power sets, but refuse to accept the possibility the teamwork, stats, skills, and in character heart jabs will not beat Wolverine?

Less impressive, yes.

So your just a hater then?

Not too many actually. He's acquitted himself quite well against many incarnations of Hulk over the years (even flat out dropping Grey Hulk). He had the upper-hand on Red Hulk as well, blinding him and having him on the ropes till Red Shulk intervened. Very impressive feats against the Hulk all things considered. His skills and power-set measure up nicely to Hulk's own. But yeah, ultimately, Wolverine should lose a majority to Savage Hulk. And? Wolverine's only been absolutely manhandled once ... and that was by WWHulk. If you need to be shown how impressive Wolverine's held up against the likes of Hulk, I can do that ...

I happen to own most of the Incredible Hulk Comics in print, and Grey Hulk was too much Wolverine in the end and Wolverine even admits it. Hulk has many time proven too much for Wolvie in those comics period.

He would never beat Thor. Obviously. But, he has humiliated Thor's combat prowess and speed by proving his own significantly superior;

Notice Thor himself, the greatest warrior on Asgard, acknowledges Wolverine to be just about the deadliest Midgard has to offer. Wolverine, believing Thor to be Sabretooth, comments on how slow he's gotten. In a hand to hand fight, Wolverine was holding his own (even cutting through Thor's durability) till Thor had had enough, takes to the air, and summons the powers of Mjolnir;

Thor wins (again, obviously) but only based on power levels alone. Notice Wolverine soak a hammer blow, and then a lightening strike ... and still struggle to his feet. But yeah, Angle punched Spike twice in the face so ...

Wolverine's even held his own against Ragnarok, a Thor clone, taking the brunt of the damage from him for his team, stabbing him in the arm, then through the neck and chest, doing the majority of the damage until Iron Fist drops him with a coupe de grace;

Notice in the opening panel, Wolverine is the only who reacts fast enough, jumping at least 20 feet into the air to confront Ragnarok in the opening of the battle. The rest of the Avengers are caught in the lightening blast and need to be saved by Spider-Man while Wolverine is left to fight alone (impaling Ragnarok in the chest);

Wolverine soaks another full on hammer strike and stabs Ragnarok through the arm. This is when things really heat up;

Soaks another point blank hammer blow. Grabs the cloak to stay in the fight (no giving up), stabs Ragnarok through the throat, had soaked a lightening blast in the panel prior, then the Avengers finally enter the fray. Spider-Man catches a still conscious Wolverine, raring to get back in the fight, but Wolverine's body is burning so hot, Spider-Man can't even hold onto him ... so yeah, Wolverine's got some very impressive showings against these power houses you mentioned and is clearly a super of worth and merit even in their "esteemed" presence.

That all neat, yet proves to me how wolverine can only challenge Ragnarok who was nowhere the same feats or tier of Thor. So it really just proof Wolverine plays with big dogs, but has no hope in hell of winning.

Also the only real reason Wolverine skill or anything seem impressive is simply becuase of his Healing Factor and Adamantium Claws. I love to see him attempt that with No Claws, Healing Factor, and do all that with just his Stats and Skill. That is what Buffy and Angel do on a day to day basis vs Ancient Gods or Demons.

It does when he's stood toe to toe with said beings and has held his own, won, or lost a hard fought battle in ways Buffy and / or Angel could only dream.

This just really reeks of looking down on Buffyverse to me. Buffy and Angel have fought Super Powered beings with total immunity to harm except through special means.

Glory for example is a super being who is immune to all harm, fights and moves as a after image blur, and has near 5 ton strength.

She simply cannot be harmed.

Glory just takes whatever near Dark Willow here throws at her with a laugh. Then Buffy hold her own for the escape.

Buffy faces Glory with the special Hammer needed to kill her.

Buffy manages on two occasions to hold her own on Dark Willow for time. Dark Willow is one of the most powerful witches in the world. She has instant healing, super human stats, TK on a massive scale, and reality warping with spells.

Angel has faced many super beings himself.

Angel faces Hamilton with all the powers of Wolfram and Hart pouring into his being. Angel impressively survives the beating of this guy and eventually takes him out when angered enough to kill by draining his unholy power which was in his blood. This is a useful tactic vs Wolverine as well.See how well he performs with his blood drain in a heavy dose.

Angel and Spike with crew have faced a enraged Illyria a few times in Comics (As human as I showed earlier) and Show. Illyria is a ancient Demon who has the power to unmake time itself. She almost did in After the Fall. She can near freeze time, slow time, and like Glory is immune to harm without Magic intervention.

Yet Angel and Crew survived her wrath many time once they knew what she could do. They all died the first time against her, but she resets time, after that they matched her well enough.

James here is much like Glory and Illyria, a ancient God immune to harm with super human stats and powers. Angel gets whooped first time, but lays into James enough the second time before revealing his secrete weapon for a win.

Just like Wolverine with Thor, Angel and Buffy cannot hope for wins, but held out long enough to use the tools needed to win in some fashion or merely survive.

So why is Wolverine so dang superior? Because you like him way better I'm sure. I will let voters decide on how they feel.

Which is why those feats are so damn impressive and bespeak top tier skill, deadly damage output and godly durability.

Which I just showed above as well.

Along with Spider-Man & Iron Fist, he's arguably Marvel's king of the street level roost. A more impressive roost than the Buffy verse to be sure. So how does stating that mean Buffy & Angel win a majority?

Many factors which i will highlight on the bottom.

All you were doing was providing scans. I work with what I'm given. But they were easily torn through to be frank.

To be frank you just do not care, or bother trying to understand the feats. Your just sold period that Wolverine wins, and will trash talk the scans to prove it. At least I am giving Wolverine where credit is due.

And I could easily show them as inconsistent by posting a plethora of contradictory feats, proving why they are indeed PIS and WIS - especially whence drawn against Wolverine's established power-set and skill-set. Glad to hear you're beyond that tactic.

Point is I am not trying to tear Wolverine down, only compare Angel and Buffy to him. Your just tearing Buffy and Angel down to make Wolverine better. That is the difference.

OK. The show rocked for you despite low budget. Glad you enjoyed it. If you scroll up, you`ll realize I was criticizing your comic book showings though, not the T.V. show.

Which is funny considering how superior the Comics are to the show in feats due to no budget.

You're free to decide which points need to addressed to be sure. Nothing to forgive. And of course, the Viners are entitled to their opinions. Including whether or not you've adequately addressed my points.

Agreed.

Not twelve inch claws through the head she doesn't.

lol true.

A) Kaine is far faster and far stronger than both Buffy & Angel, and used the powers of The Other in his fight with Wolverine and B) the fight was a staged one, Wolverine was supposed to lose. If stabbing him through the heart was so damn easy, his hundreds of enemies would have done so long ago. It was part of their established plan to have Logan lose. Wolverine's had his heart pierced before and even displaced in his chest and was in the fight a panel later. So no dice on that one.

Logan was planning on losing, he never planned to be completely overpowered. All the scan proves is a heart stab for the win. and if the Bone Stinger Blades can get through, the Slayer Scythe or Steel Stakes will.

Since Angel has his standard Spring Loaded Steel Stakes, I can see this Kaine fight happening again with Buffy and Angel vs Wolverine.

Strangely in recent comics Wolverine was stated by Black Panther in a non Ennis run that he relies on his healing factor to much. He tanks attacks, which is very well shown in many Wolverine vs whoever threads.

OK. Here's where your comments betray a lack of depth and insight into the character. This story arc is a recent one done by Cornell. Wolverine doesn't have his healing factor, and is reeling psychologically as a result. He's not himself, and not fighting like himself. Yes, he uses his durability to expedite the butt whooping in his fights, as Master Po (his Kung Fu master) so eloquently put it, and this because he can. Yes, it's grown to be part of his very effective fighting style over the decades. But when he really needs to avoid (usually when his healing factor is depleted), he does so and has done so many times.

Good news here is, he has his healing factor, and he can tank most of Buffy and Angel's attacks (at least those you've shown thus far herein) due to said healing factor and the metal. They cannot say the same for him (again, based on feats shown herein).

Yes he does, which is the only reason he will last more than a minuet vs these 2. It can and has been taxed, with Angel and buffy working him, it will be taxed. Since he tanks attack more than avoid them any way.

Not foes like Wolverine. Who's heart is protected by an adamantium laced ribcage and sternum. Not to mention the fact she has to fight her way past six twelve inch blades wielded by one of the deadliest Marvel earth has to offer. Whereas for Wolverine ... a simple punch to the face claws out will suffice.

Yet Kaine bone stinger pierced his Adamantium protected heart. Uh oh... inconsistency or BS!? Just saying the obvious.

Also Wolverine I doubt will get to punch their faces with claws. For one Buffy tends to avoid attacks, and Angel tends to avoid kill shots. As a Vampire he can (and does) get stab or cut all day to no effect because he is a Vampire.

Easier said than done to stab them in the face when they have comparable skill and speed.

They won't last long enough to tax his healing factor to that extent. Their durability is still found wanting compared to Logan's damage output. Their skill has not been shown to be anywhere near Logan's level and Wolverine's durability will hold more than long enough for him to land ONE simple punch to the face claws out ...

Once one of them drops, the other will be considerably out of his / her depths and will soon follow.

They may not have the durability of Wolverine, but they have the numbers. Also Angel to a extent has the durability. True story bro :). They also have the gear to win.

Buffy Gear is the Slayer Scythe she had in the show and comics. It is one of the most powerful magical weapons in the universe. Considered equal to Excalibur.

This Weapon is immune to damage to as feats showed. The Wooden stake itself has never broken against Concrete walls and brick walls it has shattered. The strongest beings punching it have no broke it. the only time it shattered was when it struck the source of all magic, thus undoing itself. Adamantium claws are not breaking this without Odin Force magic to it.

Then we have Angels Hellfire Sword he retrieved from Wolfram and Hart.

The weapon of choice for Angel when he was human. This Sword is made of Incorporeal Fire and still clashes with steel like a physical blade. Anything it touches happens to light up with flames. Talk about taxing a certain persons healing factor.....

Then we have the abundance of Stake throwing feats Angel and Buffy have.

All feats of Buffy range skill with stakes and other things.

Accuracy feats for Angel with thrown stakes and weapons.

Point (Pun intended) is the Stakes being thrown at insane speed and power from Angel and Buffy will stick and add to that taxing of Logan's Healing Factor. It will also riddle him with usable weapons when they close in.

There is reasons why Logan loses the majority here.

  • Angel and Buffy are as skilled. The best in their universe and feared across the others they fought in.
  • Angel and Buffy are stat wise even in speed, strength, and blunt durability. Angel has good durability in the fact nothing short of Sunlight, Wooden Stake in the Heart, or Decapitation/ Total Dismemberment can kill him.
  • The Gear load out of the indestructible Slayer Scythe and Hellfire Sword should hold off the Adamantium claws while taxing Logan's healing factor.
  • Logan been heart stabbed twice that I know of. This team specialize heart stabbing meta human beings. Sounds like a good in character strategy to win.
  • Angel and Buffy have excellent team work. they fought together many times and no eachothers strength and weakness. Teamwork is a major advantage and factor.
  • Angel can and has Drain the blood of foes near dry in seconds of a bite. How well Wolverine performs when his Healing Factor Blood strengthens Angel with a simple bite from behind? Just like Angel did to Hamilton? Game changer.

I firmly believe the Team here takes the majority.

#27 Edited by Wolverine08 (38543 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Awesome debating, dude and I agree with you completely. But is it fair to use the 'vs Thor' argument. Seeing how Thor one-shots Daken in Seige, who is more or less equal to his daddy...isn't Wolverine lasting more than a minute against Thor PIS? Just clarifying.

No he isn't. Only time Daken has posed a large challenge to Wolverine is when is holding back due to feelings for his son. When he stopped holding back and let loose against Daken, this happened:

#28 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6166 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Awesome debating, dude and I agree with you completely. But is it fair to use the 'vs Thor' argument. Seeing how Thor one-shots Daken in Seige, who is more or less equal to his daddy...isn't Wolverine lasting more than a minute against Thor PIS? Just clarifying.

First, thank you. Second, Daken doesn't have the mettle to absorb and redistribute blunt force trauma. Big difference. Third, Thor was probably holding back a tad at the offset, and dropped Wolverine when he had had enough. The purpose of the scans were to show that Wolverine's speed and martial ability were more than Thor could handle hand to hand. That is all really. And Wolverine, when finally not holding back, easily beat Daken and drowned him in a puddle. Nuff said.

#29 Posted by WarBlade539 (4495 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkazrael999 said:

@super_soldierxii: Awesome debating, dude and I agree with you completely. But is it fair to use the 'vs Thor' argument. Seeing how Thor one-shots Daken in Seige, who is more or less equal to his daddy...isn't Wolverine lasting more than a minute against Thor PIS? Just clarifying.

First, thank you. Second, Daken doesn't have the mettle to absorb and redistribute blunt force trauma. Big difference. Third, Thor was probably holding back a tad at the offset, and dropped Wolverine when he had had enough. The purpose of the scans were to show that Wolverine's speed and martial ability were more than Thor could handle hand to hand. That is all really. And Wolverine, when finally not holding back, easily beat Daken and drowned him in a puddle. Nuff said.

Ah. Okay. Cool, thanks.

@darkazrael999 said:

@super_soldierxii: Awesome debating, dude and I agree with you completely. But is it fair to use the 'vs Thor' argument. Seeing how Thor one-shots Daken in Seige, who is more or less equal to his daddy...isn't Wolverine lasting more than a minute against Thor PIS? Just clarifying.

No he isn't. Only time Daken has posed a large challenge to Wolverine is when is holding back due to feelings for his son. When he stopped holding back and let loose against Daken, this happened:

Gotcha, bud. Just clarifying.

#30 Posted by Wolverine08 (38543 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6166 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw:

I think the fact Angel is fighting 10 foot tall Demons with mass 3 times that of a Human Being makes them more than Fodder. The fact most of these Demons live in Hell and cannot survive without killing other foes every hour makes them more than Fodder unlike the street thugs most Marvel street Fighters face.

He's fighting them sure, and getting his arse beat down. And they're still fodder. Placing an adjective like "powerful" before them doesn't by default establish them as such. Wolverine's carved through dozens upon dozens of larger than life dinosaurs in the Savage Land as a matter of course (not getting pinned by them with ease mind you) and I don't deem it overly worth while because, despite the fact they are gigantic, "powerful" flesh eating dinos, they remain "fodder".

Heck, he even beat one with his bare hands, easily breaking its neck (without popping his claws);

No biggie. Like I said, fodder.

So you know next to nothing on Gunn I assume. He is a very adept fighter in Angel series.

What I was intimating is that engaging in a weapons battle against him does not denote skill enough to trump Wolverine. And it doesn't.

Gun is a human who grew up killing Vampires on the streets. He has as a Human 1 on 1 many Vampires and win. he has slain Demons that even Angel as a Vampire had a hard time with. He also with Wesley slayed a 20 foot tall, two headed, fire breathing demon. He has 5 seasons of feats fighting super human foes with below Peak Human stats.

That all sounds wonderful. Name, better yet show, an impressive adversary Gun defeated due to his skill in hand to hand aside from anonymous demons that "even Angel" as a Vampire had a hard time against (which consequently contradicts the whole point you are trying to make). To the other off handed feats mentioned, it all sounds great, but I've seen how you've ballooned context to come off as something more grandiose than it really is. So I'll wait till I see something more concrete please and thank you.

He is skilled, smart, and most importantly a season fighter. Yet Angel proves the better when Gunn had Vampire stats added to his resume and Angel was a mere Human.

And yet Vampire Angel had troubles with adversaries Gunn as a human disposed of. You see why I think you quote things to promote a point when and how it please you? Contradictions like those don't help your case. You sell the merits of one to promote the other, then demote said merits the next breath with the hopes of accomplishing the same. Doesn't work I'm afraid.

Where Angel casually throws a stake and kills the charging Demon Lord to be. As a mere human.

Would be really cool if such a tactic (throwing a stick in the eye socket) would have a hope of working, let alone dropping, Wolverine. Showings like that one only reinforces the fodder status of these baddies. He's supposed to be a Demon Lord, and yet drops so easily? OK then. Maybe now you'll understand why I feel Marvel's, and more specifically, Wolverine's antagonists are oh so much more impressive. Cuz they are.

I have read Leonardo beating the champions of the Battle Nexus, a arena where the Dimensions best warriors fight at, and came out on top against super meta human foes with his 2 Swords. I guess Leonardo can beat Wolverine then right?

No. Nor could Powerlord Krunn.

That is the logic I get from this.

That's your bad then.

Angel is a Champion, that means a Champion of the Powers That Be as their best warrior to battle across dimensions and time. Angel and Buffy has fought and bested other Dimension best warriors and beings.

Hyperbole. Like saying "Wolverine's the very best there is at what he does" then leaving it at that. Who, how and when? Context please.

Whats your point here?

It's obvious. Written black and white. Read it again is my advice.

If u\you know Spike, which you don't, he hates being upstage by Angel in any way. They thrive off competing who is better than who. What you just stated is totally out of character.

I'm only commenting on what you've shown as it occurred.

It be like Sabertooth letting Logan hit him and not care that people saw it.

It's actually happened. But no, it's not the same and the comparison is irrelevant anyway to the debate at hand.

So like I said, your simply unimpressed because nothing here is Marvel related? Nothing Wolverine involved with or ever had contact with. You just dismissed it.

Ok.

That's not at all what I said. I suggest you don't attempt to derail or paraphrase and deal with what is being said if you can.

Who give a flying leap frog? More super beings in a universe does not mean Wolverine is better. That is the laziest and most arrogant argument yet.

I surely don't. It wasn't the argument. It was a retort to your attempt at one. The point is, and pay attention please cuz it's a rather important distinction; the quality of opponent Wolverine has faced on a regular basis are more impressive, and more rife with feats and accomplishments, than those both Buffy and Angel have been shown to square off against thus far combined. Wolverine has faced a greater depth and breadth of antagonist than both Buffy and Angel and by a fair margin. That was what the point was. Again, stop derailing.

But yet they have no Thor level beings at all. Angel and Buffy Universe do. Your being Hypocritical now.

Pointlessly argumentative. Next.

So in the end, you aknowledge Star Wars win because of the power sets, but refuse to accept the possibility the teamwork, stats, skills, and in character heart jabs will not beat Wolverine?

No. Yoda wins because he is far, far more accomplished and powerful. He can use mind tricks, telekinesis and any number of force powers to defeat Wolverine. If I have to explain that to you, then really, I'm almost at a loss.

So your just a hater then?

A comment worthy of an eye roll. Really now. Putting words in someones mouth, and growing antagonistic are signs of desperation. I suggest a different tactic.

I happen to own most of the Incredible Hulk Comics in print, and Grey Hulk was too much Wolverine in the end and Wolverine even admits it. Hulk has many time proven too much for Wolvie in those comics period.

Picture's worth a thousand words so they say;

Now, let's pause here a moment, and soak in what just went down. Wolverine was avoiding the fight. Easily. Popped his claws and drove his entire arm through Hulk's torso. Notice, Hulk is indeed down. Wolverine could have carved his freaken head off had he been so inclined right there. Instead, he howls his triumph "to a moon he can't see". Fact is, Grey Hulk was down and at Logan's mercy. Sure, he heals. He's Hulk after all. But you stating Wolverine didn't drop him was false. Round two then;
Fight ends when Rick and Clay hit them with a hose (read: missile launcher). Dousing their tempers. Wolverine was still burning to fight. He was blood lusted and took everything Hulk dished out wanting only more. Fact is, the only one of the two who went down at all in that fight was Grey Hulk.

That all neat, yet proves to me how wolverine can only challenge Ragnarok who was nowhere the same feats or tier of Thor. So it really just proof Wolverine plays with big dogs, but has no hope in hell of winning.

Yeah, I guess one shot killing Goliath with a lightening strike (y'know, the Class 100 dude taller than a building?), much like the one he pummeled Wolverine with, is not impressive at all. And Wolverine had a hell of a chance of "winning". They were airborne. Had they not been, then who knows? His blows were instrumental in defeating Ragnarok. The fact Wolverine held his own at all against a team threat like that for any length of time is a hell of a lot more impressive than anything and everything you've shown. Nice attempt to downplay though.

Also the only real reason Wolverine skill or anything seem impressive is simply becuase of his Healing Factor and Adamantium Claws. I love to see him attempt that with No Claws, Healing Factor, and do all that with just his Stats and Skill. That is what Buffy and Angel do on a day to day basis vs Ancient Gods or Demons.

Lol. Nice try. Wolverine's been without his healing factor quite a few times, even sick with adamantium poisoning, and done himself proud. But I don't need to go there, as it's irrelevant. He has both his healing factor and his metal here.

Yet Kaine bone stinger pierced his Adamantium protected heart. Uh oh... inconsistency or BS!? Just saying the obvious.

Not impossible to get to the heart through the ribcage, only highly improbable. Y'know, unless they're staging the attack and y'know, maybe Logan's defenses are down just a tad?

Also Wolverine I doubt will get to punch their faces with claws. For one Buffy tends to avoid attacks, and Angel tends to avoid kill shots. As a Vampire he can (and does) get stab or cut all day to no effect because he is a Vampire.

Right, Wolverine can punch Spider-Man in the face, but Buffy and Angel are oh so much more uber leet and will avoid all his attacks just so. Don't buy it. Can't imagine anyone would really.

To be frank you just do not care, or bother trying to understand the feats. Your just sold period that Wolverine wins, and will trash talk the scans to prove it. At least I am giving Wolverine where credit is due.

I have given credit where it's due. Repeatedly. I'm just blatantly direct and the scans, insofar as proving they can beat Wolverine, are sub par at best. They just are. I explained why. You are right though, Wolverine clearly wins this one.

This Weapon is immune to damage to as feats showed. The Wooden stake itself has never broken against Concrete walls and brick walls it has shattered. The strongest beings punching it have no broke it. the only time it shattered was when it struck the source of all magic, thus undoing itself. Adamantium claws are not breaking this without Odin Force magic to it.

As far as damaging Wolverine is concerned, it's a Scythe and nothing more. If he were an "Old One" or a Vampire then maybe he'd have cause to worry about its magical properties. And stating that nothing save the Odin force can damage it is, again, highly exaggerated. Fact is, the Scythe's main property is to awaken the Slayers of the world. None of which will help Buffy against Wolverine. It's also been broken a few times, once while breaking the "Seed of Wonder" and once a time displaced Buffy herself cleaved the Scythe in two with a back hand punch ... it doesn't sound so unbreakable to me. Care to elaborate on that one?

There is reasons why Logan loses the majority here.

  • Angel and Buffy are as skilled. The best in their universe and feared across the others they fought in.
  • Angel and Buffy are stat wise even in speed, strength, and blunt durability. Angel has good durability in the fact nothing short of Sunlight, Wooden Stake in the Heart, or Decapitation/ Total Dismemberment can kill him.
  • The Gear load out of the indestructible Slayer Scythe and Hellfire Sword should hold off the Adamantium claws while taxing Logan's healing factor.
  • Logan been heart stabbed twice that I know of. This team specialize heart stabbing meta human beings. Sounds like a good in character strategy to win.
  • Angel and Buffy have excellent team work. they fought together many times and no eachothers strength and weakness. Teamwork is a major advantage and factor.
  • Angel can and has Drain the blood of foes near dry in seconds of a bite. How well Wolverine performs when his Healing Factor Blood strengthens Angel with a simple bite from behind? Just like Angel did to Hamilton? Game changer.

I firmly believe the Team here takes the majority.

And here are the reasons they do not;

  • While skilled in their respective universes, neither Angel nor Buffy have shown themselves to be more skilled than Wolverine insofar as having faced and prevailed against the same level of antagonist Logan has.
  • Neither Angel nor Buffy have proven themselves as durable as Wolverine as I have yet to see them sustain the same level of damage against the same level of adversary Logan has and remain in the fight - moreover, they have not been shown to absorb the type of damage output Wolverine is going to lay on them.
  • I do not think they're weaponry have proven to be indestructible nor enough to curb the battle in their favor. To be clear, I allowed their weaponry in this battle, because without such this would have been an absolute curbstomp in favor of Wolverine. They're weapons are the only thing making this fight worth debating at all.
  • If Angel dares try to get in close enough to bite Wolverine, then that will make this battle end all that much quicker. That's the spirit Angel, get in close to a superior adversary with blades for hands. Atta boy! Sneaking up from behind on a mutant with enhanced senses and reflexes is not a bullet proof strategy by any stretch of the imagination. He knows enough not to let himself get flanked.

I firmly believe, more so, I firmly believe I have shown that Wolverine takes a majority win.

#32 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Well since I started this I will let you close it. I made the points I wanted to on Skills, Gear, Stats, and some other things I never meant to. At this point I be posting more or less of feats of Angel and Buffy beating on Demons, Slayers, Foes, ect....

This was a much more intense debate than what I expected. With that said ready for votes?

#33 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6166 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Well since I started this I will let you close it. I made the points I wanted to on Skills, Gear, Stats, and some other things I never meant to. At this point I be posting more or less of feats of Angel and Buffy beating on Demons, Slayers, Foes, ect....

This was a much more intense debate than what I expected. With that said ready for votes?

It's all good. I wasn't really intense I had thought ... you did Buffy and Angel proud, made some interesting points and taught me a thing or two I hadn't known about them. Good job.

#34 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw said:

@super_soldierxii: Well since I started this I will let you close it. I made the points I wanted to on Skills, Gear, Stats, and some other things I never meant to. At this point I be posting more or less of feats of Angel and Buffy beating on Demons, Slayers, Foes, ect....

This was a much more intense debate than what I expected. With that said ready for votes?

It's all good. I wasn't really intense I had thought ... you did Buffy and Angel proud, made some interesting points and taught me a thing or two I hadn't known about them. Good job.

Thanks man. Always the go to Wolvie Expert. You or God_Spawn. I am not sure which one is the better Wolverine debater. Toss up between you two.

#36 Posted by kidman560 (7548 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: just as i suspected this whole thing is filled with it, those terrible things... WORDS way to many of them

ill need to read this

#37 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: just as i suspected this whole thing is filled with it, those terrible things... WORDS way to many of them

ill need to read this

Damn you words. I tried to lessen the burden with Scanageddon.

#38 Posted by kidman560 (7548 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: @indiecomicsftw: damn and i thought that my debate with indiecomics was good but this was just excellent. top notch job for both of you. ICFTW you got my vote because i believe that you have shown that Buffy and Angel have enough speed to keap up with Wolverine and the items they have could give them the advantage very nice job!

#39 Edited by nick_hero22 (6733 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii gets my vote! Iindiecomicsftw's feats for Buffy and Angel were pretty much mediocre in my opinion since most of their combatants were no-named fodder characters, and his argument seemed to reliant on a lot of baseless statements like them being the greatest in their respective Universe which is totally irrelevant here since Wolverine is from a completely different Universe with different standards of its own. I didn't see anything that would suggest that either Buffy or Angel were on-par with Wolverine physically, and the gap in skill seems to be quite large based off the evidence that has been presented in this thread such as Wolverine solo'ing several of the villains in his rogue gallery which consist of very well established characters. And, I don't recall Indicomicsftw explaining how either Buffy or Angel would bypass Wolverine's enhanced durability and regenerative healing factor.

#40 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19908 posts) - - Show Bio
#41 Posted by Funsiized (3585 posts) - - Show Bio

Can I vote for both of you? Lol.

#42 Edited by Super_SoldierXII (6166 posts) - - Show Bio
#43 Posted by Wolverine08 (38543 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii gets my vote. I felt he was holding the upper hand here from the beginning with how succinctly he broke down Indie's points and pointed to just how big the advantages Logan has over the vampire slayer's are. He was also able to make the few scans he used count a lot. I felt Indie was kind of gratuitously scan bombing at times without thoroughly breaking down just why the scans he was using should be so impressive. Overall, Supes just edged it out for me. For this relatively new debater, I was able to pick up some things I should implement in my own debates. Great debate!

#44 Posted by RisingBean (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: @super_soldierxii:

First off, Indie, using Buffy and Angel against Wolverine is like climbing up a vertical wall. You had your work cut out for you.

As it is, I think SuperSoldier did what he has always done in Wolverine debates. He cuts down the offense at the knees and watches it bleed out. He has the benefit that Logan has crap tons more showings, most of them mid to high. Hell, Wolverine began his career taking on the Hulk so that says something. And reading this I think you made a great attempt, but I feel that Wolverine would take a majority.

With that said, SSXII Congrats. It's always fun to watch you go a few rounds.

Thanks for the debate, fellas. It was good.

#45 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio
#46 Posted by RisingBean (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: Yeah. Not only is SSXII great at debating him, Logan is a pretty hard guy to discount. If I can critique, I would say that trying to go head to head with Wolverine on merit of feats is not the way to do it. You need to shut him down by focusing on his weak points and hammering until something breaks.

But you fought the good fight. Good stuff.

#47 Posted by IndieComicsFTW (3253 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: Yeah. Not only is SSXII great at debating him, Logan is a pretty hard guy to discount. If I can critique, I would say that trying to go head to head with Wolverine on merit of feats is not the way to do it. You need to shut him down by focusing on his weak points and hammering until something breaks.

But you fought the good fight. Good stuff.

......... yes. I do need to change tactics when debating against him.

#48 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6166 posts) - - Show Bio

@indiecomicsftw: Yeah. Not only is SSXII great at debating him, Logan is a pretty hard guy to discount. If I can critique, I would say that trying to go head to head with Wolverine on merit of feats is not the way to do it. You need to shut him down by focusing on his weak points and hammering until something breaks.

But you fought the good fight. Good stuff.

Who dares!!??

Weak points you say??? For sooth! He has none!!

Seriously though, thanks for the feedback Mr. Bean. :)

#49 Posted by RisingBean (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Logan has a few weak points.

I'll prove it if you want me to take you on in a Magneto vs Wolverine thread sometime.

@indiecomicsftw: Agreed. I think you need to discount feats. (Not lowball them, but show how they don't apply vs your character.) As I said the other guy excels at going on a warpath and it generally works. It's also fun.

#50 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6166 posts) - - Show Bio

@super_soldierxii: Logan has a few weak points.

I'll prove it if you want me to take you on in a Magneto vs Wolverine thread sometime.

@indiecomicsftw: Agreed. I think you need to discount feats. (Not lowball them, but show how they don't apply vs your character.) As I said the other guy excels at going on a warpath and it generally works. It's also fun.

You referring to me as "the other guy" now? Sheesh.

Magneto versus Wolverine. Make it happen. :P