CAV: Storm (R010) VS Beast Cole MacGrath (P52) (STORM WON)

Thanks to everyone that voted I appreciate the feedback.

Pope-4

Roddy-4

wow much closer now

@blacharrt1:

Because we're only counting votes with reasons from now on. Since he didn't give a reason, I asked him to.

@roddy010: @pope052:

(edit: not sure why my post was blocked out? lol)

Excellent debate between the two of you, and you have both gained my respect for the level of skill and passion exhibited here.

I will however have to choose Roddy's argument. His examples provided far less theories and conjecture. His case was rock solid for the way Storm could create an offense and defense to Cole's attacks, while I'm still left wondering if Cole could really provide the energy output and the means to put Storm down for the count. Several of Pope's examples COULD work in theory(like the city wide energy drain, or having enough defense to defend against her more powerful attacks, or being completely immune to her lightning to where he could absorb enough and turn it against her), but without the proper evidence to support it, I can't consider it viable. For me, it absolutely has to come down to evidence.

From what I've seen here, Storm has more energy output, a variety of ways to bring Cole down without him being able to defend, and a solid defense for the majority of his attacks.

Alright, I say Pope because

1. I don't see how Roddy countered Cole having an unlimited amount of energy which means he can't be overloaded. He just tried to compare Cole to other energy manipulators but just because it happened to them it doesn't mean it can happen to him and them having their power on a "larger scale" doesn't mean much. I see it as, yes you may be able to hit harder than X Character but does that mean you can actually take more damage. The whole arguement is basically saying Superman will die from the suns heat though it powers him.
2. Shutting Cole down via EMP wasn't valid as Pope pointed out in two different ways. Though I realize, if she was actually able to EMP Cole and your whoel arguement is her hitting Cole with lightning wouldn't make much sense since he would absorb it and it was already pointed out that he would be able to absorb it(unlimited amount of energy)

There were a few other reasons why but I just pointed out two major ones.

@wardemon32:

Thanks for giving reasons.

Score: 5-5

For starters, I found that the sphere having unlimited energy was hyperbole. A city wide attack doesn't equal unlimited energy, so there still may be a limit to it. If it's self sustaining, then perhaps it continues to absorb and maintain a set amount of energy(in which case, would be unlimited but not infinite at full capacity). Where was it indicated that the energy was that of the sun? Superman has actually sun dipped into the sun, so it's viable that he could survive. Has it been shown that the energy within the Ray Sphere is truly unlimited, or is it just stated? That's the problem I had with it.

Storm using the EMP were for other methods, such as robbing him of his power and hitting him with a flash freeze or KO winds. If she were able to do such a thing, she wouldn't need to hit him with a bolt of lightning when she has more effective attacks.

@storm_calling:

For starters, I found that the sphere having unlimited energy was hyperbole. A city wide attack doesn't equal unlimited energy, so there still may be a limit to it. If it's self sustaining, then perhaps it continues to absorb and maintain a set amount of energy(in which case, would be unlimited but not infinite at full capacity). Where was it indicated that the energy was that of the sun? Superman has actually sun dipped into the sun, so it's viable that he could survive. Has it been shown that the energy within the Ray Sphere is truly unlimited, or is it just stated? That's the problem I had with it.

I don't believe it was ever actually stated but it could be concluded. When Beast amplified Coles powers it was literally impossible for Coles energy to deplead. Its basically having Superman next to Captain Atom while Captain Atom is giving off solar radiation.

You see, when Beast amplified Coles powers to the fullest he was essentially keeping Cole in the Kamaric Overload forever. Let me see if I can explain this well. This may not be a very good example becuase there's probably some scientific explanation as to why this wouldn't happen but I'll try. Lets say you touch the 3rd rail on the track and your body wont burn or blow up from the shock, you'll just have the energy flowing through, and you let go the energy will eventually settle down and you will not longer be shocked(Kamaric Overload). But if you have this same indestructable body on this 3rd rail forever(and for the sake of it we'll just add more energy to the rail as its about to run out) that energy will still be running through his body forever as in compared to the only temporary shock. Get it?

Karamic Overload in the game was unlimited energy. I wont use Wiki for this proof though. The game actually says it. And you have to undnerstand that Beast is putting Cole at his full potiential when he amplified Coles powers(which should means Time Travel but hey)

Here it states(this is actually from the game) that Cole gets an unlimited amount of energy. When he is in Karmaic Overload his energy can't do down. This is essentially the same with Beast. His energy can't go down so he's in Karmaic Overload. But even if you can't consider it "kamaric overload" being that Coles powers are amplified then he should be able to make this longer than 10 seconds.

Storm using the EMP were for other methods, such as robbing him of his power and hitting him with a flash freeze or KO winds. If she were able to do such a thing, she wouldn't need to hit him with a bolt of lightning when she has more effective attacks.

Well Beast was able to take the winds of a nuke(which pope said). She can't take his powers. I realize that pope didn't counter the flash freeze. But this wouldn't be much help if Cole can go as hot as lava and he has tooken blast from Ice Giants. But both has had their ways of automatic wins. The only automatic win Storm/Roddy really had was flash freeze probably wouldn't even work as in compared to coels various ways of winning.

As I described in my previous post, the statement can be considered hyperbole because there is no actual evidence of unlimited energy. For all we know he could have a "set amount" of sustained energy that he can continuously access. Which would allow for him to make use of it for however much he can expel. Since there is no description for how this unlimited energy works, and there is no evidence that suggest that it is truly unlimited, I would have to either classify him at levels he's never demonstrated or assume that there is a limit to how much energy that is sustained within him(I went with the latter because his biggest attack is exploding a city). I see it much like a battery and a charger. The charger provides an unlimited supply of power to the battery, but the battery itself can only maintain so much energy from the charge. A battery can be overloaded if the charger puts too much energy into it, so I'm assuming the charger limits the flow in this case, and maintains a steady charge without overloading the battery. As you can see, applying an outside charge without that set limit and at a much higher capacity would damage the battery altogether.

I think Storm winds hit a bit harder than a nuke(which Roddy said and provided evidence for). I also don't think going lava level heat will help either, considering Storm has easily frozen lava flow in the past several times(don't believe Roddy went into that but I can provide scans if you need them). I have not seen any various ways that Cole could win in this argument. Roddy has provided counters for just about every argument concerning attacks on Storm.

@storm_calling:

Just because thats his biggest blast it doesn't mean its only his most powerful. You're saying that you understand that he is possibly unlimited but he can run out? If you have something thats unlimited you can run out of it. That would mean that it was never unlimited. And it was shown that as long as Beast was up and running Cole had this unlimited amount of power. In the story having an unlimited amount of power was conveyed in a way that Coles energy bar can't decrease. But here's where your logic sort of falters.

If its like a battery you would have to wait until that battery dies right? This would mean that you have to wait until Beast dies for this energy to be cut off right? But here's the catch, Cole IS the battery. So in order to cut off Coles 'unlimited energy' you would have to kill him. Lets this of this as two seperate things. An omnipresent being gived you a flashlight and a battery and the battery gives the light an unlimited amount of energy. You have a barrery outside(Beast) and its plugged into a flash light(Cole). The battery sends the energy to the flash light and the flash light projects the light(Cole and his lightning). So if you wanted to cut off this infintie amount of energy being transferred to the flash light you would have to destroy the battery or disconnect it; and disconnecting it obviously isn't an option here. So now you have to destroy it. But the only way you can destroy the battery(unlimited energy) is if you destroy the flashlight(Cole) because as opposed to just having the battery outside of the flashlight in this case its in the flashlight.

Hopefully this was a good explanation and you understand.

One thing you have to take into consideration is how well her wins fought off the blast of the nuke and how Beast reacted to this nuke. If her winds compared to the nukes blast was at a 60/40 ratio and this nuke barely moved beast then her wins will be useless. And I'll give it to you about the freezing thing but theres also another thing to look at. If you want to freeze something that can take a lot of heat then you would have to put in a lot of power into this blast. Its like having a guy thats 100 degrees step in a room thats 50 degrees and a man thats only 60. The cold would have more of an effect on the guy thats colder. Like how it would be harder to freeze human torch. Beast took a DIRECT HIT from this nuke. A nuke is hotter than the sun. Do you understand how hard it would be to freeze someone who can take that type of heat? And is she really going to do this in character?

• Iconic Drain
• Iconic Freeze
• Black hole that would also take in her blast(which should also protect him from flash freeze)
• Etc...

But lets not make this into a side arguement after the debate. You have your reasons and I have mine.

Exactly, we don't know if it was or if it wasn't. All we know is that his most powerful attack known is only a city blast. Suggesting unlmited energy when it was never proven to be is an invalid argument. From what I can understand, Cole's unlimited energy(with the Beast) may work similarly to a self sustaining reactor core. The energy potential supplied has limits.

If its like a battery you would have to wait until that battery dies right? This would mean that you have to wait until Beast dies for this energy to be cut off right? But here's the catch, Cole IS the battery. So in order to cut off Coles 'unlimited energy' you would have to kill him. Lets this of this as two seperate things. An omnipresent being gived you a flashlight and a battery and the battery gives the light an unlimited amount of energy. You have a barrery outside(Beast) and its plugged into a flash light(Cole). The battery sends the energy to the flash light and the flash light projects the light(Cole and his lightning). So if you wanted to cut off this infintie amount of energy being transferred to the flash light you would have to destroy the battery or disconnect it; and disconnecting it obviously isn't an option here. So now you have to destroy it. But the only way you can destroy the battery(unlimited energy) is if you destroy the flashlight(Cole) because as opposed to just having the battery outside of the flashlight in this case its in the flashlight.

Hopefully this was a good explanation and you understand.

This was for two different arguments. My example describes why his energy may not be unlimited in the truest sense of the word and how he can be overloaded. As for why an EMP may be able to shut it down, Roddy described it, the RFI was able to send out a pulse wave to disrupt the sphere energy. Considering that it can supply him the charge he needs to have a sustainable amount of energy, it may be an electromagnetic related energy source. Which in that case, should be affected by a powerful enough EMP. Even if that's not the case, Storm can maintain a pulsewave EMP and neutralize any electricity he gains from the energy source. Leaving him powerless indefinitely.

One thing you have to take into consideration is how well her wins fought off the blast of the nuke and how Beast reacted to this nuke. If her winds compared to the nukes blast was at a 60/40 ratio and this nuke barely moved beast then her wins will be useless. And I'll give it to you about the freezing thing but theres also another thing to look at. If you want to freeze something that can take a lot of heat then you would have to put in a lot of power into this blast. Its like having a guy thats 100 degrees step in a room thats 50 degrees and a man thats only 60. The cold would have more of an effect on the guy thats colder. Like how it would be harder to freeze human torch. Beast took a DIRECT HIT from this nuke. A nuke is hotter than the sun. Do you understand how hard it would be to freeze someone who can take that type of heat? And is she really going to do this in character?

Her winds completely contained the blast, to where she crushed it to the size of a tiny ball and could hold it near the palm of her hands. Her winds can hammer star ships and punch through mountains. They've moved and affected beings that can live in the sun and fly through space. The examples were provided by Roddy. They are simply no joke, and would most likely have a serious affect on him.

Storm has actually blew Human Torch out of his flame form and have lowered the temperature within a gun -200 after it had been fired and before the trigger cound be pulled. She's frozen the inside of a bank vault and rendered it useless and brittle. There is no heat that I've seen provided that could prevent her from freezing him.

I also do not believe nukes are the temperature of the sun, and even if that were the case, it doesn't mean it's the heat he can generate on his own.

Iconic Drain

Iconic Freeze

Black hole that would also take in her blast(which should also protect him from flash freeze)

Etc...

All countered. She can repower her life force if he tried to drain it, and can counter his freeze attacks. Ice spikes wouldn't work considering she can sense temperature variations and can counter those spikes with an electrolysis field. The black hole isn't truly a black hole. It's a vortex and can be countered by one of her own or simply resisted by taking control over the winds it produces. Sienne Blaze tried to kill Storm once by entrapping her in an area where she caused a near perfect vacuum(I have scans if you're interested). She survived this attack by manipulating the winds the vacuum explosion produced.

But lets not make this into a side arguement after the debate. You have your reasons and I have mine.

I suppose so.

@wardemon32: @storm_calling:

Hey guys, continue this in a P.M. The voting hasn't ended yet.

Lol it's always good to see a good debate start a chain of debates. Any other voters?

@ancient_0f_days@deranged_midget@homicidalmaniac@sheenlantern@nighthunder@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk@shawnbaby

Any of you guys willing to give a vote? And if so, include a reason. We'll appreciate it.

No, I dislike Cole...his fanboys have filled my heart with hatered and now I am unreasonably biased against him. I cannot vote here.

@ancient_0f_days:

But it's not Cole you're voting for.

@pope052:

wow biased

I do say

@cjdavis103: I now dub thee, captain obvious

I'll go with Pope

yes i know you asked him two but you had added him as initially being voted for you. So it still would have been 3, but after he reposted for an explaination it was four, maybe i missed something but it seemed like you counted it twice.

@ancient_0f_days:

thank you

my work here is done

@ancient_0f_days:

@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk:

Thanks, but do you have any reasons?

@pope052: Of course I have reasons. O:

@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk:

Could you list them?

@pope052: I feel that you had better counters than Roddy did. *doesn't feel like typing a lot*

@pope052: Tough call.I might give it to you.Anyway,you should check out my CAV with Nickzambuto after Nick and I are done debating.

@homicidalmaniac:

Thanks, do you have a reason for the vote? And i'll be sure to check out you and Nick's CAV, what is it called?

Anyway, Score: 6 - 5 (My favor)

@pope052: Counter a bit better and it called Shaman King Hao Asakura Vs SSJ God Goku

@homicidalmaniac:

Thanks, and your CAV looks good. I'll definitely stay tuned to it.

Score: 7 - 5 (My favor)

@pope052: Umm I wouldn't honestly count the last two since they barely gave reasoning but whatevs.

@dondave@killemall@lordofallhumans@time@god_spawn@edamame@outside_85 any of you guys care to vote?

@roddy010:

I almost forgot about this, so what do you think? Should we keep the voting open or close it?

I vote for @roddy010 . For me he proved that Storm has the defensive capabilities to negate anything Cole throws at her and has the damage output to at least disperse Cole like the nuke did to the Beast and for me being disperesed counts as a K.O.

I think you are right one vote was counted twice.

@stompa:

No it wasn't.

The first time he gave me a vote he gave no reason. I counted that vote but then I agreed with @roddy010's statement that votes should only be counted with a reason. His vote was then discounted, but then since he gave a reason then it counted.

Score is 7 - 6 (My favor)

@pope052: Yes we can keep votes open. And thanks for the vote @Stompa

Bumpage!

Yea.. based on everything I have read I am going to have to vote for Storm..

Back to a tie.

Roddy-7

Pope-7

@roddy010: @pope052:

Pope gets my vote. Im even fighting against Cole in another thread and he explained Cole very well that I had to vote just to tag this thread

@roddy010:

I wouldn't count @butterflykyss vote as he didn't give a reason.

@boschepg

Thanks, but we only count votes with reasoning.

Score is still 7 - 6.

Both did a great job, making solid defenses for their respective characters, but IMHO @roddy010 was more convincing in his arguments, presenting counters for most of the possible scenarios. Congratz to both!

I will give you a reasoning when I get the chance. My vote still goes for STorm. Will do so in the next day or so..

thanks,

@pope052: Oh really?

I guess their reasoning was good enough to make the cut :p

Oh and btw

Roddy-8

Pope-8

@roddy010: Crap,I forgot to reply to the thread

@roddy010:

That was the same person, and it was still a reason. Albeit not a great one, but it was better than nothing.

I'm not saying that @butterflykyss vote shouldn't count, but wait until he gives a reason and then you can count it.

@pope052: The word 'their" can be used after an indefinite singular antecedent in place of his or her and their reasoning was expressed the same way as kyss. Not to mention.

@homicidalmaniac: it's all good voting is still open :) your vote still counts but remember to give better reasoning next time.