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#1 Edited by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio

Storm (Roddy010):

VS

Cole MacGrath/Beast Cole (Pope052):

Rules:

Storm:

  • All feats are permitted. Except obvious PIS, etc.
  • Morals On/ In Character.
  • No Prep, nor Prior Knowledge.
  • Win by Death, or KO.

Cole:

  • End of Infamous 2 Evil Karma (Fully Upgraded), w/ Beast Powers.
  • Morals Off.
  • No Prep, nor Prior Knowledge.
  • Win by Death, or KO.

Challenge a Viner Rules:

  • Give at least one reason for a vote.
  • The voting system is on the debater, not necessarily the character.
  • Do not post any irrelevant content, or interfere with the debate. If you must interject, send either of us a P.M.

As always, may the best man win.

#2 Edited by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Posted by Jmarshmallow (9140 posts) - - Show Bio

I think this is a stomp, but I'm not going to say for who. I look forward to one of you convincing me otherwise!

Best of luck to the both of you!

Jmarshmallow

#4 Posted by Roddy010 (5314 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Nice set up an good luck to you,

@jmarshmallow: Thanks :)

I'll be posting my opening argument in just a second.

#5 Posted by Thewhiteronin (754 posts) - - Show Bio

I was looking forward to Pope and Dark Raiden going head-to-head, but this will be equally good! I wish the best of luck to both of you!

#6 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio

This could have been a 2v2 because I've beaten both 1 & 2 like 17 times! But I'm still looking foward to this. I'm rooting for you pope!

#7 Edited by Roddy010 (5314 posts) - - Show Bio

Cole Mcgrath has an immensely powerful powerset having all his abilities plus John's. It can easily be seen as a stomp from a far but if we look at each of their powersets they are on equal terms as far as versatility. However Storm far outclasses Cole (even in the incarnation) in raw power and range. It is commonly misconstrued that Ororo merely just controls the weather, however this is not the case for this powerful mutant. Storm actually has the ability to perceive, sense ,and manipulate multiple forms of energy and forces that relate to weather phenomena. All of these factor in the weather conditions of the entire universe. This gives her solid offensive/ defensive capabilities and a counter to nearly everything Cole can throw at her.

Pyrokinesis/Lava Form- John's powers is listed as a high level pyrokinetic. His best feat include him forming into a Giant Lava version of himself that is capable of causing city wide destruction. Storm has countered psychokinetics before and has bested each of them. ie Pyro, Human Torch, Mandroid, Idie.

On top of this she has also countered much larger beings with her powers such as Terminus and the Vibranium enhanced Kraken, both who can cause City wide destruction.

Cyrokinesis- This allows Cole to manipulate temperatures/moisture to create ice/cold attacks that won't be effective against Storm. The hypothalamus, found in the brain, regulates the body's temperature (usually around (98-100 degrees F). Due to her mutant genetics, Storm's hypothalamus allows her body to regulate and compensate extreme temperature (internal and external).

Electrokinesis/EMkinesis- This is Cole's primary source of power. he can pretty much do everything Storm can do with her electrokinesis. however Storm has shown more control and raw power in this department. The intensity of Cole's electricity is measured in gigawatts (1 billion watts) An average Lightning bolt can have 100 million to 1 billion volts, and contains trillions of watts. A hurricane can produce 6.0 x 1014 Watts of energy, which is 200 times the world-wide electrical generating capacity. She can channel the energy of an entire hurricane as easily as you would take a breath and has created/tanked bolts in the terawatts (1,000,000,000,000 watts)

She also controls electrons on a sub-atomic level including her own.

Gravitokinesis- The amount of control Cole will have over this ability won't be enough to be considered a threat besides Storm's wind manipulation completely trumps this ability in so many ways. Gravity won't keep her from flying.

Black Hole- Technically not an actual black hole but John regenerating himself with a powerful vortex that appears as a black hole. This can be avoided once again using winds to either fly out of reach or simply manipulating the vortex itself.

Teleportation- Storm's energy sight combined with her connection to air allows her awareness of all living beings and changes around her. These abilities allow her to see through walls, the synapses within the human brain as well as track the X-jet from thousands of miles away. Teleportation will be useless against her.

This leaves Cole with one option, The ionic Drain, which allows him to drain the Life Force of those around him. This is probably his most deadly attack and if done right he could ened the battle quickly. However, Storm once again has a counter for this.

I don't see anything in Cole's arsenal that Storm can't counter.

#8 Posted by homicidalmaniac (7996 posts) - - Show Bio

This look interesting

#9 Posted by DarkRaiden (7770 posts) - - Show Bio

I was looking forward to Pope and Dark Raiden going head-to-head, but this will be equally good! I wish the best of luck to both of you!

Yeah sorry. By the time I got there, they already agreed to it.....and I agree this will be exciting.

#10 Edited by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010:

Alright, here we go:

First, i'll reply to your points:

However Storm far outclasses Cole (even in the incarnation) in raw power and range.

I concede to Storm having the advantage in range, but I disagree on her having the advantage in raw power. I'll go into detail with Cole's abilites as soon as i'm done replying to your points.

Storm actually has the ability to perceive, sense ,and manipulate multiple forms of energy and forces that relate to weather phenomena. All of these factor in the weather conditions of the entire universe. This gives her solid offensive/ defensive capabilities and a counter to nearly everything Cole can throw at her.

No doubt this is all impressive. However it's no biggie against Cole. Cole himself can sense any electricity source from any shape or size. He can sense and see all the electricity sources in the area for that matter. And likewise, he can obviously manipulate the power.

I wouldn't say that Storm has the defensive advantage over Cole either, nor would she be able to counter nearly all of Cole's offensive attacks. But like I said before, i'll go into detail with this once I finish replying to your points.

Pyrokinesis/Lava Form- John's powers is listed as a high level pyrokinetic. His best feat include him forming into a Giant Lava version of himself that is capable of causing city wide destruction. Storm has countered psychokinetics before and has bested each of them. ie Pyro, Human Torch, Mandroid, Idie.

John is a living Ray Sphere and his power comes from Ray Sphere energy alone. His appearance may seem Magma/Pyro like, but his powers aren't based off of them. He doesn't even possess any pyrokinetic abilities IIRC. In fact, even though Nix's powers are considered "Fire Powers". There has actually been no noticeable pyrokinesis involved. It just seems like red energy and tendrils.

Storm won't be able to counter Cole's "Fire Powers" like she had previously with Pyrokinetic characters, simply because they don't work in even remotely the same aspect as other fire users.

On top of this she has also countered much larger beings with her powers such as Terminus and the Vibranium enhanced Kraken, both who can cause City wide destruction.

Cole possesses some of her abilities, but Beast Cole does not. She has no idea what Ray Sphere energy is and what it's capabilities are. She'll be completely unfamiliar with it in battle. The conduits powers come from Ray Sphere energy. That's a very specific source.

Cyrokinesis- This allows Cole to manipulate temperatures/moisture to create ice/cold attacks that won't be effective against Storm. The hypothalamus, found in the brain, regulates the body's temperature (usually around (98-100 degrees F). Due to her mutant genetics, Storm's hypothalamus allows her body to regulate and compensate extreme temperature (internal and external).

Cole doesn't need to use his Ice Powers against Storm, when he has powers that work to a much higher extent.

Electrokinesis/EMkinesis- This is Cole's primary source of power. he can pretty much do everything Storm can do with her electrokinesis. however Storm has shown more control and raw power in this department. The intensity of Cole's electricity is measured in gigawatts (1 billion watts) An average Lightning bolt can have 100 million to 1 billion volts, and contains trillions of watts. A hurricane can produce 6.0 x 1014 Watts of energy, which is 200 times the world-wide electrical generating capacity. She can channel the energy of an entire hurricane as easily as you would take a breath and has created/tanked bolts in the terawatts (1,000,000,000,000 watts)

Cole cannot be harmed by lightning at all, likewise Storm. There would be no point in them attacking each other with Electrokinesis. Not to mention he can generate Tornadoes in less than a second if he pleases, but they're pretty small and wouldn't be much to Storm.

Gravitokinesis- The amount of control Cole will have over this ability won't be enough to be considered a threat besides Storm's wind manipulation completely trumps this ability in so many ways. Gravity won't keep her from flying.

I have no doubt that Storm's winds wouldn't be able bypass Cole's Gravity Manipulation. Nevertheless, i'll elaborate on how Cole can utilize this to his advantage when the time comes.

Black Hole- Technically not an actual black hole but John regenerating himself with a powerful vortex that appears as a black hole. This can be avoided once again using winds to either fly out of reach or simply manipulating the vortex itself.

John wasn't regenerating himself for one, he was entering the vicinity. As for the vortex itself, it was incinerating people before they even reached the inner vortex.

Teleportation- Storm's energy sight combined with her connection to air allows her awareness of all living beings and changes around her. These abilities allow her to see through walls, the synapses within the human brain as well as track the X-jet from thousands of miles away. Teleportation will be useless against her.

It's not necessarily an offensive ability, but rather something Cole could use to avoid an attack if anything.

This leaves Cole with one option, The ionic Drain, which allows him to drain the Life Force of those around him. This is probably his most deadly attack and if done right he could ened the battle quickly. However, Storm once again has a counter for this.

Oh boy, this is the big one. I'm saving any counter I have for this when I get my actual post up.

I don't see anything in Cole's arsenal that Storm can't counter.

Likewise, I don't see anything in Storm's arsenal that Cole can't counter. You'll see why in a while.

Alright, i've managed to get this up at least.

I have something that needs doing outside of this so i'll be back with my REAL post in roughly 1 - 2 Hours (Max). Until then, do not make another post until I have my rebuttal posted.

@roddy010

#11 Edited by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010:

Alright, now it's time to get this show on the road:

I'll start off with Cole's powers w/o Beast Powers:

Cole MacGrath:

First off, Storm's lightning bolts. I know how powerful they can be. However, the main point on why they wouldn't affect Cole is that his body feeds off of lightning or any form of electricity. Cole absorbs electricity in order to maintain his strength, it doesn't harm him. There has been no instance of harm from even a tiny little overdose of electricity.

What happens when Cole's body contains it's maximum input of energy? Does lightning then start hurting Cole? Nope, all that happens is that his body stops absorbing the electricity. Storm cannot overload Cole either. In fact, he has a sole power dedicated to a power overload:

Karmic Overload:

Not only does this prove that his body is immune to electricity overloads, it also gives him an unlimited amount of power for a span of ten seconds or less.

While I know that it doesn't necessarily matter against Storm, it is still a good factor going for him if he somehow wasn't able to utilize the Beast's powers and was forced back into using his original powers only.

As you can see in the following video, the worst that an overload can do to Cole is give him an unlimited supply of power. Which is an advantage to him:

Moving on,

If Storm creates a "storm". Then she's basically giving Cole an unlimited supply of energy from the start. He can consistently heal from anything Storm can hurt him with via absorbing the lightning from the Storm, while also rejuvenating himself:

(Apologies for the commentary, I didn't make the video):

Cole can shield himself with a Polarity Wall, a full-body shield produced from Cole's hand, while also capable of attacking even when the shield is active. He could use his blasts to deflect attacks from Storm. Or he could simply send back an attack Storm throws at him via Ionic Vortex. A tornado-like ability that takes up anything in it's path:

Polarity Wall:

Blasts:

He also has a variety of different types of Blasts to use. Including a blast that can slightly manipulate the gravity, enabling enemies to fall at a slower rate allowing Cole to finish them off mid-air. A blast that latches an energy projection onto the target, allowing Cole to shoot it, creating an explosion.

For now, I don't think a video demonstration is needed. And while I know that Blasts are basically useless against Storm, I do feel that it would give Cole at least slight defense if he needed it.

Ionic Vortex:

As for Cole's offensive abilities. He can utilize various types of the following:

  • Bolts.
  • Blasts.
  • Grenades.
  • Rockets.
  • Ionic Powers.

I'll focus on the rest of Cole's Ionic Powers, his other powers won't really have an affect on Storm. They're also too basic and I don't necessarily need to elaborate on them.

I've already shown Ionic Vortex, now it's time for Ionic Freeze, Drain and Storm:

Ionic Freeze:

Pretty simple. Unleashes dozens of Ice Spikes from the ground upwards, destroying any opponents or objects present on the ground surface. Storm won't be, but it's just to demonstrate the variety of his abilities:

Ionic Drain:

This is by far Cole's most deadly attack w/o Beast Powers. Cole unleashes a drain which sucks out the energy from anyone unfortunate enough to be near it. Cole can utilize this in a second or less and it takes as little as six seconds to complete:

And lastly..

Ionic Storm:

Cole can unleash a Lightning Storm in a second that comes raining down at rapid speeds. Utterly destroying anything in it's path:

Cole has a Precision ability. It allows him to easily tag opponents who are moving, or out of range. Both instances of which Storm would most likely be. It also slows down time to some degree, but only to an extent:

Precision:

And lastly..

Radar Pulse:

Cole is able to sense any electricity source no matter how much of a supply there is. He can sense all electricity within the vicinity.

Also, this ability allows him to sense where disguised/hidden enemies are at. If Storm generates fog around her, Cole can sense her with a red-glowing aura surrounding her. He can also sense if people are infected with diseases, (I know this is irrelevant, but still pretty nifty).

(It occurs at the time-span in between 0:04 - 0:05, you'll notice a sudden blue aura emerge from Cole, electricity sources will flash and the mini-map will display all electricity sources in the area. This happens multiple times in the video if you still don't notice it):

Alright. That's Cole himself done, now why don't I move onto the real deal here:

Beast Cole:

I'll list the following powers/abilities of the Beast:

Mini-Black Hole/Vortex Generation:

The Beast making his entrance here in Empire City, generating a vortex in the process. The vortex was incinerating civilians before they even reach the inner part. It was absorbing solar light particles, and (most noticeably) destroying building constructs.

Cole could simply generate one of these to absorb Storm's lightning bolts and other attacks. This could arguably kill Storm herself if she was close enough to the vortex. However, considering that she would be at least a small distance away from Cole at the start of the fight, Cole can just use it as a defense more than an offense:

Gravity Manipulation:

The Beast can stop the Gravity around him so Storm cannot fly off. He can pull her towards him or push her away from him at will. This process cancels full control over flight. Leaving Storm at a disadvantage.

In order to break out of this, Storm needs to attack Cole. She wouldn't get very far doing this as Cole could easily kill her if she got caught in Cole's gravity control. He could suck the energy from her, generate a Ray-Field blast that is capable of wiping out city-blocks in an instant. His shields and other defensive capabilities are capable of protecting him from any of Storm's attacks.

Teleporation:

The Beast could teleport to any desired location if he wished, avoiding Storm entirely. It isn't useless at all:

Telepathy:

Using the same video, John could communicate with Cole telepathically. While I know he can't mind-fuck people, he could use this as a distraction if he wished:

Molecular Reformation:

John reformed from atoms after being torn apart by the Ray Sphere. He quoted this:

"...the Ray Sphere, exploding, tearing me apart atom by atom"

The Beast took a nuke directly to the head, with no effect:

When Cole had first battled the Beast, all the damage that Cole did just made the Beast stronger. Quote from Cole:

"The Beast had just put itself back together".

City-Leveling Ray Field Blasts:

The Beast had destroyed Empire City with a single attack, and it took him no longer than one second to accomplish:

And to top it off...

City-Wide Ionic Drain:

As shown above, the Beast could level Empire City with a single attack.

The Ionic Drain shown by Cole, takes one second to start, and six seconds to complete. I realize that Storm is fast, but she cannot scale a city as big as Empire City in one second. One second is all that it takes for Cole to start the draining process. Once caught in it, she isn't escaping.

Combine leveling Empire City with a single attack, and Cole's Ionic Drain. You get a city-wide Ionic Drain that takes a total span of a second to utilize, and six seconds to complete.

Those scans of her escaping from Lamprey's drain. First of all, the drain didn't seem to have nearly as impressive impact as Cole's Ionic Drain. The draining process took a lot longer than six seconds considering how Storm was able to strike a lightning bolt in time.

You can't go by this feat and say that she can withstand or escape Cole's draining process. She cannot withstand it for sure, and she cannot escape it as it is city-wide. She cannot strike lightning down to re-power herself as it would just get sucked into the drain:

Anyway, there's my opening post completed.

Your move, @roddy010

#12 Posted by RogueShadow (11228 posts) - - Show Bio

Just to show I am present and that I was also present but not commenting in the original thread after my departure - I am going to post this:

#13 Posted by Roddy010 (5314 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: I'll be posting my reply later tonight. Excellent post btw.=.=!

@rogueshadow: Lmao that scene will always be a classic

#14 Edited by Roddy010 (5314 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: My counter...

First off, Storm's lightning bolts. I know how powerful they can be. However, the main point on why they wouldn't affect Cole is that his body feeds off of lightning or any form of electricity. Cole absorbs electricity in order to maintain his strength, it doesn't harm him. There has been no instance of harm from even a tiny little overdose of electricity.

What happens when Cole's body contains it's maximum input of energy? Does lightning then start hurting Cole? Nope, all that happens is that his body stops absorbing the electricity. Storm cannot overload Cole either. In fact, he has a sole power dedicated to a power overload:

An excellent theory but pure conjecture none the less. There is not enough evidence to support Cole being unaffected by lightning from an outside source. Energy can't be created, destroyed nor contained (at least not for long). His ability to absorb lightning is no different from any other character with similar abilities and we can't assume Cole is immune or can't be overloaded just because no one has used this tactic against him. Storm, Polaris, Magneto, Bishop, Sebastian Shaw have all shown a high endurance of energy absorption but have all been overloaded or overwhelmed at one point of their career. Each of these characters have a much larger output and input than Cole.

No doubt this is all impressive. However it's no biggie against Cole. Cole himself can sense any electricity source from any shape or size. He can sense and see all the electricity sources in the area for that matter. And likewise, he can obviously manipulate the power.

Storm also has this ability on a much larger scale.

John is a living Ray Sphere and his power comes from Ray Sphere energy alone. His appearance may seem Magma/Pyro like, but his powers aren't based off of them. He doesn't even possess any pyrokinetic abilities IIRC. In fact, even though Nix's powers are considered "Fire Powers". There has actually been no noticeable pyrokinesis involved. It just seems like red energy and tendrils.

Storm won't be able to counter Cole's "Fire Powers" like she had previously with Pyrokinetic characters, simply because they don't work in even remotely the same aspect as other fire users.

Ray's source of power has nothing to do with how they operate. His bio states him as a high level pyrokinetic. He gains other abilities but his base power is pyrokinesis. He's still an elemental no matter if it be a magical, artificial, natural/biological or technological source thus meaning he can be countered by other elementals in this case Storm.

The Beast can stop the Gravity around him so Storm cannot fly off. He can pull her towards him or push her away from him at will. This process cancels full control over flight. Leaving Storm at a disadvantage.

In order to break out of this, Storm needs to attack Cole. She wouldn't get very far doing this as Cole could easily kill her if she got caught in Cole's gravity control. He could suck the energy from her, generate a Ray-Field blast that is capable of wiping out city-blocks in an instant. His shields and other defensive capabilities are capable of protecting him from any of Storm's attacks.

Storm won't need to attack Cole to break out of this all she would need is her winds. Let's face it Cole is no Gravitron and even with this ability Storm's winds will be efficient enough to keep her aloft or to anchor herself against the pull. Her winds have countered high level telekinetics such as Candra, Jean Grey and Psylocke. It has also countered the magnetic pull Polaris had on Colussus. She can also Gravity is the weakest of all the fundamental forces in the universe and Storm has more than enough in her arsenal to counter this ability.

As shown above, the Beast could level Empire City with a single attack.

The Ionic Drain shown by Cole, takes one second to start, and six seconds to complete. I realize that Storm is fast, but she cannot scale a city as big as Empire City in one second. One second is all that it takes for Cole to start the draining process. Once caught in it, she isn't escaping.

Combine leveling Empire City with a single attack, and Cole's Ionic Drain. You get a city-wide Ionic Drain that takes a total span of a second to utilize, and six seconds to complete.

Those scans of her escaping from Lamprey's drain. First of all, the drain didn't seem to have nearly as impressive impact as Cole's Ionic Drain. The draining process took a lot longer than six seconds considering how Storm was able to strike a lightning bolt in time.

You can't go by this feat and say that she can withstand or escape Cole's draining process. She cannot withstand it for sure, and she cannot escape it as it is city-wide. She cannot strike lightning down to re-power herself as it would just get sucked into the drain:

Ummm no you're misinterpreting what's going on in those scans. Lamprey leeches energy from other people the same way The Ion Storm/Drain drains people of their life force. As soon as he touches Storm this process begins and only prolongs because she was battling Lamprey in a test of wills and overpowered him thus pulling a lightning strike through miles of earth to the arena. This shows complete control over Storm's own natural energy and supports that drainage will succumb to a battle of wills which Cole will respectfully lose. So yes this feat is applicable in this sense. Also this sequence took place in a matter of seconds.

The Beast had destroyed Empire City with a single attack, and it took him no longer than one second to accomplish

Storm has countered much more powerful attacks than this. In UX #14 Siena Blaze, an extremely powerful EM manipulator, casually tossed a blast at Nightcralwer that had enough power to fry him to a crisp, sink Muir Island and half of Scotland Mainland. In the issue where she battled Storm, Sienna Blaze has enough power to split the planet like a ripe melon. Xavier telepathically forced Siena to unleash all of the power she had to temporarily burn her out. He succeeded as she admitted this. Furthermore, she could barely speak or stand. Storm summoned an electrically-charged wind tunnel to redirect Siena's full power when she did that blast that burned out Sienna's powers. The issue stated that Scott just sat there and blasted in case any of Sienna's energy got away from Storm's vortex.

She's also contained nukes as well as redirected Scott's optic blast with her winds. Her winds are no joke.

As for ways for Storm to take out Cole. The impact of Storm`s lightning is more than enough to knock him out being that she also controls the concussive forces behind them. If she hits him with a strike strong enough to dig through thousands of miles of Earth I doubt he would be able to tank that. No one in Infamous has shown that much potency. Her lightning has also knocked an entire team of X-men and Shi`ar Imperial Guards with one strike.

Her precision also plays a key. She can not only controls where her lightning strikes but where it travels. She once struck Vindicator directly disrupting her natural electromagnetic pulse thus rendering her paralyzed, shot Hulk through his brain to disrupt his synapses thus killing him and then later bringing him back to life using her lightning as defibrillator. Meaning she can easily disrupt any synapses within the brain.

This or the concussive force of her winds Cole can't stand against.

#15 Edited by THUNDERBOLT30 (10676 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting debate. In general I see Storm beating Cole thoroughly, but "beast" Cole, factoring in all of his powers, is a much bigger challenge. I'll wait to vote on this as the debate progresses.

#16 Edited by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010:

Alright, second post ready. Let's go:

An excellent theory but pure conjecture none the less. There is not enough evidence to support Cole being unaffected by lightning from an outside source. Energy can't be created, destroyed nor contained (at least not for long). His ability to absorb lightning is no different from any other character with similar abilities and we can't assume Cole is immune or can't be overloaded just because no one has used this tactic against him. Storm, Polaris, Magneto, Bishop, Sebastian Shaw have all shown a high endurance of energy absorption but have all been overloaded or overwhelmed at one point of their career. Each of these characters have a much larger output and input than Cole.

I see your point. But considering that Cole was never in fact attacked by lightning before or even displayed the slightest notion of weakness to an overload, it is more assumable that an overload wouldn't affect him than vice versa.

While there is little evidence to support my theory, my best points is that since Cole's original powers revolve around purely electro-kinesis and since that Storm's powers don't, that could explain why she was affected by such attacks in the past. Lightning does nothing but power Cole and I guess you can see where i'm coming from.

I realize how powerful Storm's lightning is, however it does not necessarily prove that she could harm someone who's powers revolve around solely electro-kinesis. I'd like to see an instance of that if there is one.

Even if her bolts do manage to harm Cole, this isn't just regular Cole anymore. It is Beast Cole, he could absorb the lightning that which she attacks him with, or generate a vortex to BFR it if he was somehow getting overwhelmed.

As for the overload. The Beast's power is unlimited.

My explanation is that The Ray Sphere is a self-generating power source, it can release it's energy and then rebuild itself. To prove this, when Cole first activated the Ray Sphere (Granting him his powers), it released most if not all of the energy it contained, yet later on in the storyline. He activated the same Sphere IIRC and became twice as strong.

The Ray Sphere is an unlimited source of energy that the Beast had absorbed, and now since Cole has John's powers added to his own, he IS a self-generating power source. He cannot be overloaded as there's an unlimited supply of energy.

Ray's source of power has nothing to do with how they operate. His bio states him as a high level pyrokinetic. He gains other abilities but his base power is pyrokinesis. He's still an elemental no matter if it be a magical, artificial, natural/biological or technological source thus meaning he can be countered by other elementals in this case Storm.

I realized that his powers are considered pyrokinetic. However, there is no noticable fire control within John's attacks. And even so, the power that he utilizes clearly doesn't work the same as most other pyrokinetic wielders that Storm has dealt with before. John most commonly uses his Ray Sphere energy, he rarely uses his pyro-kinesis.

Storm won't need to attack Cole to break out of this all she would need is her winds. Let's face it Cole is no Gravitron and even with this ability Storm's winds will be efficient enough to keep her aloft or to anchor herself against the pull. Her winds have countered high level telekinetics such as Candra, Jean Grey and Psylocke. It has also countered the magnetic pull Polaris had on Colussus. She can also Gravity is the weakest of all the fundamental forces in the universe and Storm has more than enough in her arsenal to counter this ability.

She's also contained nukes as well as redirected Scott's optic blast with her winds. Her winds are no joke.

Sure she can easily break the grip of his gravity manipulation. But what's stopping him from draining her on the spot before she gets a chance to use her winds? Or what if he simply opened a vortex so the wind's energy would get sucked inside of it?

The winds may be able to loosen the grip but they cannot hurt or blow Cole back. He tanked the force of a nuke coming at a close distance which contains over 10,000,000 tonnes of TNT.

Ummm no you're misinterpreting what's going on in those scans. Lamprey leeches energy from other people the same way The Ion Storm/Drain drains people of their life force. As soon as he touches Storm this process begins and only prolongs because she was battling Lamprey in a test of wills and overpowered him thus pulling a lightning strike through miles of earth to the arena. This shows complete control over Storm's own natural energy and supports that drainage will succumb to a battle of wills which Cole will respectfully lose. So yes this feat is applicable in this sense. Also this sequence took place in a matter of seconds.

Their draining processes are different though. Nothing implies that Cole's draining process is a test of wills. Lamprey's draining involved contact with Storm's skin and there was not even a remotely good radius, she was drained only when he touched her. Cole's Ionic Drain literally vaccums the energy out of the opponent. Lamprey's didn't seem like it had an even remotely plausible affect compared to Cole's and the process took longer than six seconds judging from the scans.

She cannot withstand the radius of a city-wide drain unless she has done so before. If she manages to withstand the six seconds long enough to send a lightning bolt down her way, it would still get caught in the draining process. Lightning is attracted to Cole as well as it is to Storm so it wouldn't work for those two reasons.

Storm has countered much more powerful attacks than this. In UX #14 Siena Blaze, an extremely powerful EM manipulator, casually tossed a blast at Nightcralwer that had enough power to fry him to a crisp, sink Muir Island and half of Scotland Mainland. In the issue where she battled Storm, Sienna Blaze has enough power to split the planet like a ripe melon. Xavier telepathically forced Siena to unleash all of the power she had to temporarily burn her out. He succeeded as she admitted this. Furthermore, she could barely speak or stand. Storm summoned an electrically-charged wind tunnel to redirect Siena's full power when she did that blast that burned out Sienna's powers. The issue stated that Scott just sat there and blasted in case any of Sienna's energy got away from Storm's vortex.

I'll concede to the impressiveness of this particular feat. However, it implies that without the need of Xavier's telepathy to weaken Sienna then Storm wouldn't have prevailed like she did.

As for ways for Storm to take out Cole. The impact of Storm`s lightning is more than enough to knock him out being that she also controls the concussive forces behind them. If she hits him with a strike strong enough to dig through thousands of miles of Earth I doubt he would be able to tank that. No one in Infamous has shown that much potency. Her lightning has also knocked an entire team of X-men and Shi`ar Imperial Guards with one strike.

It's not a matter of tanking the hit as the lightning wouldn't affect him to begin with. It's like trying to say that since Thor has never taken a hit from the Martian Manhunter, then that means he couldn't. I don't see why couldn't manipulate the bolt to re-direct it towards Storm, or rather just absorb the power from it.

If there's a storm active, the lightning is always attracted to Cole.

Her precision also plays a key. She can not only controls where her lightning strikes but where it travels. She once struck Vindicator directly disrupting her natural electromagnetic pulse thus rendering her paralyzed, shot Hulk through his brain to disrupt his synapses thus killing him and then later bringing him back to life using her lightning as defibrillator. Meaning she can easily disrupt any synapses within the brain.

Those instances were different as neither of those characters were lightning manipulators. At the Good ending of Infamous 2, Cole is dead by a lightning strike looked like it hit him at the end. This hints that the lightning can even revive him if he is dead.

Take a look at the following, Cole is able to dodge all of Kessler's attacks and tag him with his own nonetheless. Kessler is a high-tier time/energy maniuplator and teleporter:

That's all I can fit in for now, i'll reply to you as soon as I get the time.

Your move.

#17 Posted by Roddy010 (5314 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: I'll be posting my reply later today. Sorry I've been busy with work and what not.

#18 Posted by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio
#19 Edited by Roddy010 (5314 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: My reply....

I see your point. But considering that Cole was never in fact attacked by lightning before or even displayed the slightest notion of weakness to an overload, it is more assumable that an overload wouldn't affect him than vice versa. While there is little evidence to support my theory, my best points is that since Cole's original powers revolve around purely electro-kinesis and since that Storm's powers don't, that could explain why she was affected by such attacks in the past. Lightning does nothing but power Cole and I guess you can see where i'm coming from.

Yes I can see your point on this and once again it's an excellent theory. However as you stated there is not enough evidence to support Cole not being overloaded, besides the Sphere being his unlimited source. Also the Sphere is a technological source of energy and can be destroyed with enough power, Cole did this to the Beast in the first game with a powerful bolt. Since this device is tech based I see no reason Storm couldn't disrupt it or completely shut it down as she's done before.

Also Storm, Magneto and Polaris all control electromagnetic energy which makes them all electrokinetic and all have been overloaded at some point in their careers. Most of Storm's feats require her to tap into the EM spectrum on a grand scale, while also manipulating moisture, kinetic wind forces as well as radiant energy. She has nigh-unlimited sources to tap into namely the Earth and Sun. Many times she has tapped into the Electrical Potential energy of the Earth to amp her abilities and the Sun provides 174 quadrillion watts to the planet. All of this energy gives her enough power to knocked out Clor, Channel and spread a hyperblizzard across the entire continent of North America, Generate enough lightning to punch through 3,950 miles of Earth and giving Polaris enough power to launch an island into space. No one in infamous has shown that much power even the Beast. The Ray Sphere itself only a city buster while Storm is well beyond city-level. A simple EMP will shut the energy source down.

I realized that his powers are considered pyrokinetic. However, there is no noticable fire control within John's attacks. And even so, the power that he utilizes clearly doesn't work the same as most other pyrokinetic wielders that Storm has dealt with before. John most commonly uses his Ray Sphere energy, he rarely uses his pyro-kinesis.

Ok I can concede on this point. I was just making a case for any fire based abilities he would throw at her, but energy won't be a problem either. She's counter energy/concussive force numerous times.

Sure she can easily break the grip of his gravity manipulation. But what's stopping him from draining her on the spot before she gets a chance to use her winds? Or what if he simply opened a vortex so the wind's energy would get sucked inside of it?

The winds may be able to loosen the grip but they cannot hurt or blow Cole back. He tanked the force of a nuke coming at a close distance which contains over 10,000,000 tonnes of TNT.

Her winds will definitely break her free because they are a much stronger force than Cole's gravity manipulation or she could just simply cancel this out completely with a EM field surrounding her creating the anti-gravity effect. Since EM forces are naturally repulsive. This combined with her winds will be more than enough to break free of Cole's grip.

Her winds have battered Spaceships and has kept the X-jet aloft (weighing 300 tons). Her winds have also been able to contain a baby nuke within her hands. So in short yes her winds can effect Cole.

Their draining processes are different though. Nothing implies that Cole's draining process is a test of wills. Lamprey's draining involved contact with Storm's skin and there was not even a remotely good radius, she was drained only when he touched her. Cole's Ionic Drain literally vaccums the energy out of the opponent. Lamprey's didn't seem like it had an even remotely plausible affect compared to Cole's and the process took longer than six seconds judging from the scans.

She cannot withstand the radius of a city-wide drain unless she has done so before. If she manages to withstand the six seconds long enough to send a lightning bolt down her way, it would still get caught in the draining process. Lightning is attracted to Cole as well as it is to Storm so it wouldn't work for those two reasons.

The draining processes are different only that Lamprey has to physically touch the person, but his ability to leech life Forces and other forms of energy is the same as Cole's. He was literally draining her life from her and if you look closely at the scan you will see this sequence spanned in the time it took Callisto to pick up her opponent, which took place in a matter of seconds. I never said Cole's draining process was a test of wills but that it will come down to a test of wills, since Storm has been willful enough to resist drainage.

I'll concede to the impressiveness of this particular feat. However, it implies that without the need of Xavier's telepathy to weaken Sienna then Storm wouldn't have prevailed like she did.

All Xavier did was force Sienna to unleash her full power. How is that weakening her?

It's not a matter of tanking the hit as the lightning wouldn't affect him to begin with. It's like trying to say that since Thor has never taken a hit from the Martian Manhunter, then that means he couldn't. I don't see why couldn't manipulate the bolt to re-direct it towards Storm, or rather just absorb the power from it.

If there's a storm active, the lightning is always attracted to Cole.

No it's actually nothing like that at all. Thor and MM exist in two different universes but have feats to scale their durability in those respected universes. If Thor has consistently tanked more force/power than MM max output, then yes it's safe to say Thor could take a hit from MM and vice verse. Unless Cole has actual feats of him tanking bolts as powerful as what Storm can dish out, I don't see him taking the massive force behind her bolts. Also lightning as well as multiple forms of energy will be attracted to Storm at all times.

Those instances were different as neither of those characters were lightning manipulators. At the Good ending of Infamous 2, Cole is dead by a lightning strike looked like it hit him at the end. This hints that the lightning can even revive him if he is dead.

Vindicator's suit allows her to geothermal energy and absorb heat into its power cells, provides its wearer with a personal force field, and enables feats of super-strength and super-speed. Hulk has a higher durability than anyone in Infamous and her lightning was powerful enough to penetrate him and shut him down. I see no reason Storm couldn't do the same with no morals.

#20 Posted by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010:

Yes I can see your point on this and once again it's an excellent theory. However as you stated there is not enough evidence to support Cole not being overloaded, besides the Sphere being his unlimited source.

Like I said. Cole can overload himself at will and the once his lightning has reached it's maximum capacity, his body just stops absorbing the power source but it does not harm him. I know this probably doesn't prove anything but it's my best piece of evidence I can provide for the theory.

Also the Sphere is a technological source of energy and can be destroyed with enough power, Cole did this to the Beast in the first game with a powerful bolt. Since this device is tech based I see no reason Storm couldn't disrupt it or completely shut it down as she's done before.

The energy from the Ray Sphere itself can be destroyed, but only the device containing the energy, not the energy within. As John absorbed the energy and he has proven himself unable to be properly destroyed without use of the RFI. When Cole hit the Sphere all that was destroyed was the literal metal sphere containing the energy, not the energy itself as it emerged from the sphere and (almost) completely destroyed John.

Cole had never fought the Beast in Infamous 1, he wasn't even aware of the Beast's existence before Kessler fueled his mind with the truth. I assume by this that you meant Cole destroyed the Sphere containing the energy with a powerful bolt, which I have refuted above. Storm cannot destroy the actual energy within John, only the RFI can. And a quote from Cole -

"

If I use that thing, it's going to kill us! Kill all Conduits, not just the Beast!".

By using this, Cole implies that he needed the RFI to stop the Beast completely. The Beast cannot be taken down by sheer power alone as he reforms himself only to become stronger, I have proven this in a video I had previously provided, and to provide another quote from Cole-

"The Beast had just put itself back together".

Also Storm, Magneto and Polaris all control electromagnetic energy which makes them all electrokinetic and all have been overloaded at some point in their careers. Most of Storm's feats require her to tap into the EM spectrum on a grand scale, while also manipulating moisture, kinetic wind forces as well as radiant energy. She has nigh-unlimited sources to tap into namely the Earth and Sun. Many times she has tapped into the Electrical Potential energy of the Earth to amp her abilities and the Sun provides 174 quadrillion watts to the planet. All of this energy gives her enough power to knocked out Clor, Channel and spread a hyperblizzard across the entire continent of North America, Generate enough lightning to punch through 3,950 miles of Earth and giving Polaris enough power to launch an island into space. No one in infamous has shown that much power even the Beast. The Ray Sphere itself only a city buster while Storm is well beyond city-level. A simple EMP will shut the energy source down.

I know that Storm, etc can manipulate electromagnetic energy and are all partially electrokinetic. However, they aren't completely electrokinetic like Cole was in his original form. Storm had never (as far from what i've seen) overloaded a completely electrokinetic being with her lightning.

I realize that Storm can manipulate various forms of energy. What i'm saying is that a lightning bolt is not going to kill, overload or even affect Cole unless you can show me an instance of her killing/overloading a being that it's power runs off of solely electrokinesis. She can't overload the Beast with lightning as his power does not run off of electricity.

An EMP would be useless to Cole as he does not need to rely on his electricity while possessing John's powers.

Her winds will definitely break her free because they are a much stronger force than Cole's gravity manipulation or she could just simply cancel this out completely with a EM field surrounding her creating the anti-gravity effect. Since EM forces are naturally repulsive. This combined with her winds will be more than enough to break free of Cole's grip.

Her winds have battered Spaceships and has kept the X-jet aloft (weighing 300 tons). Her winds have also been able to contain a baby nuke within her hands. So in short yes her winds can effect Cole.

Her winds would easily break through Cole's gravity manipulation, had I not conceded to that already? Apologies if I haven't, but now I have. I mean that Cole could counter her winds by opening a vortex to absorb the winds, or simply drain the force of the winds altogether.

The vortex John had opened was incinerating people before they even reached the actual vortex, and absorbing wind and light particles which I can prove if that is what you want:

You can clearly see light particles and wind getting sucked into John's vortex:

The draining processes are different only that Lamprey has to physically touch the person, but his ability to leech life Forces and other forms of energy is the same as Cole's. He was literally draining her life from her and if you look closely at the scan you will see this sequence spanned in the time it took Callisto to pick up her opponent, which took place in a matter of seconds. I never said Cole's draining process was a test of wills but that it will come down to a test of wills, since Storm has been willful enough to resist drainage.

They hadn't even displayed a notion of similarity other than being both draining processes:

  • Beast Cole could drain multiple beings from a city-wide distance, Lamprey has to touch an individual and his drain is noticeably inferior.
  • Cole's process takes shorter to utilize and is (seemingly) inescapable. It is draining the whole body in a second while Lamprey's seems to take longer to actually complete.
  • Storm needed a lightning bolt to break from the draining process. Cole's Ionic Drain sucks in everything from all angles so lightning isn't getting near her without getting absorbed.
  • Storm has never been drained by Cole so there's no say on how she would resist it. Unless you can provide something that suggests that Storm could resist being completely drained by a city-wide radius in six seconds without the use of her lightning (which won't reach her if she tried), you can't necessarily assume she can.

All Xavier did was force Sienna to unleash her full power. How is that weakening her?

Apologies, I worded that wrong. What I mean in summary from that is Storm couldn't have beaten Sienna without Xavier forcing her to exert her full power.

No it's actually nothing like that at all. Thor and MM exist in two different universes but have feats to scale their durability in those respected universes. If Thor has consistently tanked more force/power than MM max output, then yes it's safe to say Thor could take a hit from MM and vice verse. Unless Cole has actual feats of him tanking bolts as powerful as what Storm can dish out, I don't see him taking the massive force behind her bolts. Also lightning as well as multiple forms of energy will be attracted to Storm at all times.

I used a terrible example, but I guess you can see where i'm coming from. I replied to the argument on whether Cole can tank her bolts or not above. As for the lightning being attracted to Storm, it will be attracted to Cole too so it's not like he is gaining no power from an active storm just because Storm is present.

Those instances were different as neither of those characters were lightning manipulators. At the Good ending of Infamous 2, Cole is dead by a lightning strike looked like it hit him at the end. This hints that the lightning can even revive him if he is dead.

Which two characters weren't lightning manipulators? And what do you mean by everything after that? You're basically saying that Cole can be revived by lightning bolts, which is more of a pro to my argument.

Vindicator's suit allows her to geothermal energy and absorb heat into its power cells, provides its wearerwith a personal force field, and enables feats of super-strength and super-speed. Hulk has a higher durability than anyone in Infamous and her lightning was powerful enough to penetrate him and shut him down. I see no reason Storm couldn't do the same with no morals.

Yes but Hulk is not a lightning manipulator so it would have a different affect on him then it would on a lightning manipulator. Unless Storm has accomplished something equally as impressive as this on an actual lightning manipulator, then it's not worth taking into consideration in these circumstances.

#21 Edited by Roddy010 (5314 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052:

I know that Storm, etc can manipulate electromagnetic energy and are all partially electrokinetic. However, they aren't completely electrokinetic like Cole was in his original form. Storm had never (as far from what i've seen) overloaded a completely electrokinetic being with her lightning.

You do know that Magneto, Storm and Polaris all manipulate electricity on a sub-atomic level and have all achieved feats greater than Cole has with the use of this ability. They have all absorbed more raw power than Cole has and have much more control, yet they were still shown susceptible to overloading.

I realize that Storm can manipulate various forms of energy. What i'm saying is that a lightning bolt is not going to kill, overload or even affect Cole unless you can show me an instance of her killing/overloading a being that it's power runs off of solely electrokinesis. She can't overload the Beast with lightning as his power does not run off of electricity.

Well the same can be said for your argument. Unless we have legit proof that Cole can resist being forcefully overloaded from another source, we just can't assume he can't. He clearly has a limit as you state his stops absorbing after he reaches a certain amount. If he were truly limitless his body would never stop absorbing.

The energy from the Ray Sphere itself can be destroyed, but only the device containing the energy, not the energy within. As John absorbed the energy and he has proven himself unable to be properly destroyed without use of the RFI. When Cole hit the Sphere all that was destroyed was the literal metal sphere containing the energy, not the energy itself as it emerged from the sphere and (almost) completely destroyed John.

The RFI can disrupt or amplify Ray Sphere Energy by sending waves of it's own energy. This means an outside source can disrupt Ray Sphere Energy (Even if it's the same type of energy) and further supports my case of Cole being taken out by a powerful EMP. The general idea of an EMP is that it wreaks havoc on electronics, but leaves other physical structures mostly untouched. Storm has used this to effect biological creatures as well. If she directs a focused EMP into Cole's brain she could short circuit his nervous system, much like she did to Vindicator. What defense will he have against this?

Her winds would easily break through Cole's gravity manipulation, had I not conceded to that already? Apologies if I haven't, but now I have. I mean that Cole could counter her winds by opening a vortex to absorb the winds, or simply drain the force of the winds altogether.

The vortex John had opened was incinerating people before they even reached the actual vortex, and absorbing wind and light particles which I can prove if that is what you want:

Something Storm could easily disburse and he wouldn't be able to pull this off before she struck him with lightning/cold/winds. And Really what's stopping her from creating an EF4/EF5 tornado around Cole, battering him senseless. Her torandos have taxed both Jean Grey and Magneto to their limits and has easily lifted Terminus (who at his shortest is 150ft tall) and tossed him with enough force to KO him. Terminus had insane durability (withstood being sent to the center of the earth and being inside a star unaffected). What defense does Cole have against her winds?

Also after reading back on your post and re watching the videos, I have to say the feats for The Beast and Cole are unintentionally being blown out of proportion. There's also a lot of holes in the explanation behind them.

  • Ionic Drain- What proof do you have that Cole could perform this on a city-wide level? There has been nothing to indicate that he could and all this ability does is drain the surrounding energy sources, which I have countered.
  • Ray Field Blast- I watched the video and there was no indication that the entire city was destroyed but 5 blocks which isn't even a mile long. (00:27-00:29) At 1:19 we see the Beast is destroying the rest of the city but there is nothing to indicate that he did so in 1 second with a massive citywide explosion.
  • The Gravitational Pull- Already countered this but I'd also like point out that is a the weakest form of defense/offense Cole has and is relatively limited in range, making it an almost useless tactic against someone of Storm's Calibre.

As far as Cole's defenses, even backed by The Beast he still lacks sufficient feats to say he can withstand Storm's elemental barrage.

  • Polarity Wall- The wall only covers Cole's front (not a sphere or dome of protection) and has blocked gunfire/explosives but Cole was still effected by the impact of the force behind them. He's even been knocked out.
  • Ionic Vortex- As stated before Storm could simply disperse it or counter with her own more powerful tornado.
  • Cole's Reaction Time- In his fight against Kessler, there's a 2 second delay before he fires at Cole ( with a build up almost like a Firebender) Storm's attacks coming at him from any angle she chooses at the speed she thinks it far outclasses Kessler's attack speed.

Apologies, I worded that wrong. What I mean in summary from that is Storm couldn't have beaten Sienna without Xavier forcing her to exert her full power.

The point of the feat was that Storm had enough power to counter planet busting energy. This isn't the first time she has done so. She has created cosmic turbulence around the entire planet to deflect solar flares from destroying it.

Which two characters weren't lightning manipulators? And what do you mean by everything after that? You're basically saying that Cole can be revived by lightning bolts, which is more of a pro to my argument.

This was actually your post, I just forgot to quote it :P

Yes but Hulk is not a lightning manipulator so it would have a different affect on him then it would on a lightning manipulator. Unless Storm has accomplished something equally as impressive as this on an actual lightning manipulator, then it's not worth taking into consideration in these circumstances.

Hulk not being a electrokinetic has nothing to do with his durability. He has endured much more punishment than Cole ever has and was still effected by her lightning. That just supports the impact behind her bolts. So far I have seen nothing to support Cole not being effected by Storm's powers and I'm still not convinced he can endure any of her attacks for long. If she chose to generate a massive tornado that pins Cole in place and reaches into the upper atmosphere to pull down the hyper cold to flash-freeze Beast/Cole, how would he counter this?

#22 Edited by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010:

You do know that Magneto, Storm and Polaris all manipulate electricity on a sub-atomic level and have all achieved feats greater than Cole has with the use of this ability. They have all absorbed more raw power than Cole has and have much more control, yet they were still shown susceptible to overloading.

I never denied the quality of Storm, Magneto, and Polaris' manipulation of electricity. I'm just saying that those beings don't possess just electrokinesis like original Cole did.

And besides, Beast Cole runs off an unlimited supply of Ray Sphere energy. It's debatable on whether she can overload Cole alone but she can't overload an unlimited source of energy, for the obvious reason of it being limitless.

Well the same can be said for your argument. Unless we have legit proof that Cole can resist being forcefully overloaded from another source, we just can't assume he can't. He clearly has a limit as you state his stops absorbing after he reaches a certain amount. If he were truly limitless his body would never stop absorbing.

I realize that I do not possess enough evidence to totally prove that Cole cannot be forcefully overloaded. But here's my best points:

  • His ability, Karmic Overload. Does exactly that, and nothing affects Cole it only gives him a limitless supply of energy for a short time-span.
  • Once his body has reached it's maximum capacity, it stops absorbing electricity. However nothing hints that Cole can get harmed by electricity when his body is at full storage.

As for your last point. The Beast's energy source is limitless as he is a self-generating source of energy. He doesn't need to absorb anything, and you cannot overload an unlimited source of anything.

The RFI can disrupt or amplify Ray Sphere Energy by sending waves of it's own energy. This means an outside source can disrupt Ray Sphere Energy (Even if it's the same type of energy) and further supports my case of Cole being taken out by a powerful EMP. The general idea of an EMP is that it wreaks havoc on electronics, but leaves other physical structures mostly untouched. Storm has used this to effect biological creatures as well. If she directs a focused EMP into Cole's brain she could short circuit his nervous system, much like she did to Vindicator. What defense will he have against this?

No, it doesn't mean that at all actually.

The RFI is the only thing capable of depleting Ray Sphere energy, and the only thing able to kill conduits via destroying the energy within them. A quote by Wolfe:

"No. A Ray Field Inhibitor. I call it the RFI. Think of it as an anti-Ray Sphere."

It is the only thing capable of depleting Ray Sphere energy, and EMP will not suffice as Ray Sphere energy is not electricity. Conduits receive different types of abilities from the Sphere, Cole just happened to get electrokinesis. The Sphere itself does not revolve around electric power. It is it's own energy source.

If Storm tried to EMP Beast Cole it would be like trying to put out fire with ice. Nothing but the RFI can stop deplete Ray Sphere energy.

Something Storm could easily disburse and he wouldn't be able to pull this off before she struck him with lightning/cold/winds.

This ties in with the "Can Storm's lightning affect Cole or not?" argument, which neither of us will concede to. I could easily say that her lightning would get absorbed by Cole if anything, but then you'd refute that and then i'd refute that and the argument would never end.

As for the winds, they'd get absorbed by the vortex. The vortex can be opened in as little as a second judging by the video, and even though lightning is fast. Can she really use her winds and her lighting simultaneously and faster than one second? This would creates problems for Storm if anything as the lightning wouldn't affect Cole so she'd have to rely on her winds which would get sucked into the vortex.

And Really what's stopping her from creating an EF4/EF5 tornado around Cole, battering him senseless. Her torandos have taxed both Jean Grey and Magneto to their limits and has easily lifted Terminus (who at his shortest is 150ft tall) and tossed him with enough force to KO him. Terminus had insane durability (withstood being sent to the center of the earth and being inside a star unaffected). What defense does Cole have against her winds?

I've already conceded that her winds would break through Cole's general defenses. However his vortex is not a matter of defense as it just absorbs anything within it's range, including wind and solar energy.

  • Ionic Drain- What proof do you have that Cole could perform this on a city-wide level? There has been nothing to indicate that he could and all this ability does is drain the surrounding energy sources, which I have countered.

Here, the Beast levels Empire City with a single attack in less than a second:

That was one of the Beast's abilities. Now next we see Cole's Ionic Drain, starting in a second and ending in six seconds:

Cole received John's powers combined to his own at the (Evil) ending of Infamous 2:

Since John's powers were added to Cole's, that's combining John's city-wide and leveling blasts with Cole's Ionic Drain.

  • Ray Field Blast- I watched the video and there was no indication that the entire city was destroyed but 5 blocks which isn't even a mile long. (00:27-00:29) At 1:19 we see the Beast is destroying the rest of the city but there is nothing to indicate that he did so in 1 second with a massive citywide explosion.

What? Is this denial? I clearly showed that the Beast destroyed Empire City and Cole even clarified that himself along with almost everybody else in the game. If you want more, quotes from the Wiki:

"Upon waking, Cole found himself in a bed with Zeke beside him, who was watching the news. Captivated, Cole sees the Beast, reformed, and watches as it destroys Empire City using a single blast of immense power".

"As Cole was able to recover from his injuries on board the escaping ship, John, now "the Beast", was able to rebuild himself again with his new powers. Returning to town, he used the strongest of his abilities and destroyed Empire City in a single blast".

If you still don't believe me, I suggest you play the game if you haven't (no insult intended) or thoroughly read the following two wikis:

Empire Event

John White (Read from "Rebirth")

  • The Gravitational Pull- Already countered this but I'd also like point out that is a the weakest form of defense/offense Cole has and is relatively limited in range, making it an almost useless tactic against someone of Storm's Calibre.

I already conceded that this wasn't going to hold off Storm's winds, three times now. it can just stop her flight and allow him to attack her if she gets close and enough.

  • Polarity Wall- The wall only covers Cole's front (not a sphere or dome of protection) and has blocked gunfire/explosives but Cole was still effected by the impact of the force behind them. He's even been knocked out.

If he has the shield clearly active Cole has never been KO'd whilst using it, at least from my countless playthroughs of both games.

  • Ionic Vortex- As stated before Storm could simply disperse it or counter with her own more powerful tornado.

I'll concede to this also, but it's not like Cole needs the Ionic Vortex.

  • Cole's Reaction Time- In his fight against Kessler, there's a 2 second delay before he fires at Cole ( with a build up almost like a Firebender) Storm's attacks coming at him from any angle she chooses at the speed she thinks it far outclasses Kessler's attack speed.

Yes, but Kessler was constantly teleporting and spamming attacks that only took at best 1.5 seconds to charge and fire. Yet Cole was dodging them like nothing.

The point of the feat was that Storm had enough power to counter planet busting energy. This isn't the first time she has done so. She has created cosmic turbulence around the entire planet to deflect solar flares from destroying it.

This isn't exactly true though. Xavier had to literally force the power out of Sienna, it would have been different for Storm if Sienna used her power on her own. It would be like forcing Wolverine to be blood-lusted. Yes he is more brutal and harder to put down, but it also makes him an easier and dumber target.

Hulk not being a electrokinetic has nothing to do with his durability. He has endured much more punishment than Cole ever has and was still effected by her lightning. That just supports the impact behind her bolts. So far I have seen nothing to support Cole not being effected by Storm's powers and I'm still not convinced he can endure any of her attacks for long. If she chose to generate a massive tornado that pins Cole in place and reaches into the upper atmosphere to pull down the hyper cold to flash-freeze Beast/Cole, how would he counter this?

Hulk cannot manipulate lightning so the lightning wouldn't have been attracted to him in any way. Where as it would likely amplify Cole if it came into contact with him as he is a lightning manipulator.

As for how Cole is supposed to react to the tornado. What's stopping Cole from using his Gravity Manipulation to stabilize the tornado and then simply push it away or cancel it?

#23 Edited by Roddy010 (5314 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: Sorry for the delay but I'm back, fully rested and in full effect :)

I never denied the quality of Storm, Magneto, and Polaris' manipulation of electricity. I'm just saying that those beings don't possessjust electrokinesis like original Cole did.

The point I was trying to make was that all these characters have a much finer control and a far more powerful input and output than Cole in the use of electricity and yet they have all be susceptible to being overloaded, despite their sources of energy.

And besides, Beast Cole runs off an unlimited supply of Ray Sphere energy. It's debatable on whether she can overload Cole alone but she can't overload an unlimited source of energy, for the obvious reason of it being limitless.

If Ray Sphere Energy is non electric, how does it give him an unlimited source of electricity? All Ray Field Energy does is give him an unlimited supply of it's own energy giving the user a longer duration to use their power without strain. He won't strain and can use his powers longer but this still doesn't prove he can't be forcibly overloaded via lightning.

Also since you asked Storm's track record of beating other electrokinetics completely trumps Cole's by a mile.

This ties in with the "Can Storm's lightning affect Cole or not?" argument, which neither of us will concede to. I could easily say that her lightning would get absorbed by Cole if anything, but then you'd refute that and then i'd refute that and the argument would never end.

As for the winds, they'd get absorbed by the vortex. The vortex can be opened in as little as a second judging by the video, and even though lightning is fast. Can she really use her winds and her lighting simultaneously and faster than one second? This would creates problems for Storm if anything as the lightning wouldn't affect Cole so she'd have to rely on her winds which would get sucked into the vortex.

Yes all of Storm's abilities operate on a subconscious level.

Described as a larger consciousness, her instincts, her subconscious, and the biosphere at work, Storm has a special connection to her elemental surroundings that grant her an instinctual understanding of the orders of nature and vice versa, with nature understanding her. Ororo has described this communion as the source that sustains her power and more importantly her soul. She can become "one" with this larger consciousness/Biosphere and molds the elements to her wills desire. It has been revealed that this connection works both ways. The elements can deny her control as well as act without her conscious consent. This mainly has to do with her emotional connection to her surroundings and could be perhaps what she really wants without subconsciously considering the consequences. Though this is not always the case, such as when the elements were much more violent than what she had wanted them to be on a vampire island; which forced her to completely stop using her powers altogether in fear of destroying her partner Gambit at the time of a mission(the elements were corrupt by dark magic); or when Doom's forest created a powerful paroxysm, when it used Storm to focus it's revenge against the men trying to destroy it, when she was too weakened to do so herself. This communion is always active, which allow for Ororo's powers to activate at a much quicker pace than one would suspect that they could. They can generate before a conscious thought, at an instinctual level and even instantaneously; considering the fact that the elements already do work at a subconscious level before Ororo makes a conscious thought, thanks to their communion with one another.

-StormCalling

Also Cole is not an aerokinetic, so he does not have the same grasp of the winds as Storm. Any Vortex (via electrokinesis) he creates big or small she can easily disperse it by manipulating the kinetic forces behind them, since wind is simply the kinetic energy of air.

As far as the City Wide Ionic drain, I'll concede on the Beast creating a Ray blast that leveled Empire City, however to assume Cole can perform a city wide drain is pure conjecture and can't be taken sincere on these boards. A city wide explosion is not the same as Cole using his electrokinesis to to drain the city, which I've countered anyway. This brings me to my next point......

This isn't exactly true though. Xavier had to literally force the power out of Sienna, it would have been different for Storm if Sienna used her power on her own. It would be like forcing Wolverine to be blood-lusted. Yes he is more brutal and harder to put down, but it also makes him an easier and dumber target.

You're really nitpicking and dancing around this feat but you can't deny Storm countered everything Siena had to offer under her own power. whether prompted by Xavier's telepathic manipulation or by her own control, is still more powerful than Beast/Cole's power out-put. This isn't her only planet busting feat.

As far as Cole's reaction time is concerned, Cole doesn't have the reaction time to counter Storm's attacks point blank and the Kessler video proves this for us. Kessler caught Cole very easily via his teleportation at 1:21 - 1:24. Kessler teleports fast enough to hit Cole easily in that instant and 1:39 - 1:52 Kessler takes Cole down before Zeke jumps in the fight. The Baroness was so fast that she evaded Psylocke's TK blast right after it was fired that alone makes her faster than Cole and yet Storm was able to trap her in a reverse tornado that reached up to the edge of space and pulled down the hyper cold before Baroness could even react. Cole won't have time to counter this attack. Or she can choose many other methods all which take place instantly.

Storm formed a cyclone and with multi-directional lightning around the Sidri in an instant and this is in mid-air and WITHOUT adding dangerous debri into the mix.

Instant tornado to BFR the SK influenced X-Men, tornado in the 'blink of eye' to batter Dark Phoenix (she was limited with the atmosphere on the moon), and instant sky lightning to block Cyclop's Optic blast (which is said to travel at light speed)

Instant tornado to BFR Ms.Marvel powered Rogue (with superhuman reflexes that completely trumps Cole's) before she even figured out what was happening, and a mini-localized katabatic blizzard in the 'literal blink of an eye'

Polarity Wall is only a wall of electrical force in front of him. His sides and his back is exposed and is therefore useless against all encompassing wind attack or being struck from all sides by any of Storm's elemental assaults (i.e. - showered in basket ball sized hailstone at hundreds of mph) or having debri hurled at him for different directions. Not to mention that his polarity wall is not up to par in blocking her attacks, as well as his minuscule gravity manipulation. Storm's powers have taxed Jean Grey and Magneto to their limits and both have a much larger powerset than Cole has.

He has no defense to her power what so ever and lacks the feats to put him on par with her reflexes.

Your Turn......

#24 Posted by Roddy010 (5314 posts) - - Show Bio

Also doesn't Cole still have to breathe?

#25 Posted by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010:

That's fine, at least now you're back.

The point I was trying to make was that all these characters have a much finer control and a far more powerful input and output than Cole in the use of electricity and yet they have all be susceptible to being overloaded, despite their sources of energy.

Yes I realize that. But has Storm ever overloaded someone who runs off of solely electricity (Original Cole)? Like I said before, is that he can overload himself at will, which has to count for something.

If Ray Sphere Energy is non electric, how does it give him an unlimited source of electricity? All Ray Field Energy does is give him an unlimited supply of it's own energy giving the user a longer duration to use their power without strain. He won't strain and can use his powers longer but this still doesn't prove he can't be forcibly overloaded via lightning.

Why does something have to run off of electricity to be unlimited? He can keep recycling his own energy that doesn't run off of electricity/lightning, it runs off of Ray Sphere energy, it is it's own source of energy.

How is Storm meant to overload Cole if she does not possess that form of energy? Even if she did, it is infinite so she couldn't do it by definition.

Also since you asked Storm's track record of beating other electrokinetics completely trumps Cole's by a mile.

Yes but that's because Cole hasn't face any other electrokinetics. It's unfair to compare Storm and Cole in that field because Storm has dozens of feats from dozens of comics where as Cole only has two games, and a wiki. Same applies to almost all game characters.

Yes all of Storm's abilities operate on a subconscious level.

Alright, but then again. Cole has a counter for almost all of her attacks.

Also Cole is not an aerokinetic, so he does not have the same grasp of the winds as Storm. Any Vortex (via electrokinesis) he creates big or small she can easily disperse it by manipulating the kinetic forces behind them, since wind is simply the kinetic energy of air.

How could she disperse an open vortex? Her winds would get sucked inside of it.

As far as the City Wide Ionic drain, I'll concede on the Beast creating a Ray blast that leveled Empire City, however to assume Cole can perform a city wide drain is pure conjecture and can't be taken sincere on these boards. A city wide explosion is not the same as Cole using his electrokinesis to to drain the city, which I've countered anyway. This brings me to my next point......

I never said Cole needs to use his electrokinesis to drain the city, and what counter were you referring to? He CAN drain it via electrokinesis but his Ionic Drain can do it to a much higher extent, and does not run off of electricity.

You're really nitpicking and dancing around this feat but you can't deny Storm countered everything Siena had to offer under her own power. whether prompted by Xavier's telepathic manipulation or by her own control, is still more powerful than Beast/Cole's power out-put. This isn't her only planet busting feat.

But you can't assume that Storm would have accomplished the same without aid of Xavier forcing Sienna to use her full power. If she could, then why would Xavier need to intervene?

As far as Cole's reaction time is concerned, Cole doesn't have the reaction time to counter Storm's attacks point blank and the Kessler video proves this for us. Kessler caught Cole very easily via his teleportation at 1:21 - 1:24. Kessler teleports fast enough to hit Cole easily in that instant and 1:39 - 1:52 Kessler takes Cole down before Zeke jumps in the fight. The Baroness was so fast that she evaded Psylocke's TK blast right after it was fired that alone makes her faster than Cole and yet Storm was able to trap her in a reverse tornado that reached up to the edge of space and pulled down the hyper cold before Baroness could even react. Cole won't have time to counter this attack. Or she can choose many other methods all which take place instantly.

But what need would Cole have to face Storm at point blank range? He can fight at a distance especially with Beast's powers. Not to mention, what is stopping Cole from avoiding all of Storm's attacks via teleportation?

He has no defense to her power what so ever and lacks the feats to put him on par with her reflexes.

I was just using his reflexes as a counter for Storm's basic attacks.

As for her power altogether, he can reform on a molecular level, generate city-busting attacks in an instant, drain Storm dry (which she has no counter for), or teleport out of the way. He doesn't need defense when he can reform, avoid, or absorb the attacks.

Also doesn't Cole still have to breathe?

No, the Ray Sphere activates the conduit gene. Turning Cole conduit, not human any more.

To use an example to support this theory, the Plague was a sickness that spread across the entire city of New Marais. It attacks the lung system and causes breathing problems, Cole wasn't affected by it whatsoever.

That's my post done.

@roddy010

The time may be near to end the debate. It's hard to find counter for most of your points as I don't have much source information left over. I'm pretty much done and ready to open the voting. But you may post whatever you want and i'll wait until you agree to open the voting.

#26 Edited by Roddy010 (5314 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: I'm fine with that I feel we've both made solid cases. I enjoyed our debate and hope we can do this again. :)

#27 Posted by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio
#28 Posted by Cjdavis103 (9575 posts) - - Show Bio

Good debate Pope takes this IMO

#29 Edited by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio
#30 Posted by Lvenger (20864 posts) - - Show Bio

I need some time to look this through. Might vote on it tomorrow. If I don't feel free to bug me again to remind me of it.

#31 Posted by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio
#32 Posted by kidman560 (7577 posts) - - Show Bio
#33 Posted by RogueShadow (11228 posts) - - Show Bio

Pope

#34 Posted by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio
#35 Posted by Wardemon32 (4152 posts) - - Show Bio
#36 Posted by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio
#37 Edited by kidman560 (7577 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052: @roddy010: (it was a joke pope dont worry!) i want to say the Roddy seemed to have the better debate it seems he knows allot about storm, however Cole had to many variables for Storm and Pope exploited tha. votes to pope (but right now i dont want to challenge either of you!

#38 Posted by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio
#39 Posted by Roddy010 (5314 posts) - - Show Bio

I think votes should only count backed by reasoning. thanks to those who voted and explained why.

#40 Posted by DarkRaiden (7770 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll go with @roddy010 he had more evidence, more ways for Storm to win, less theory with his argument, and Pope couldn't prove his counters one way or another. IMO Speculation is just that, speculation and can't be taken all the way in a debate.

#41 Edited by NeonGameWave (8042 posts) - - Show Bio

This was a very in depth read, debate and experience for us to see, and for them to bring for us! It was extremely well done as it was balanced, both brought greatness to their characters within this debate and it was pretty close but in terms of pure, steer-clear, and coherency in the points mastered, I would have to go with @pope052.

#42 Posted by Cjdavis103 (9575 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010

@pope052

I guess I need to explain my vote Both sides gave good arguments but in the end I think Pope did better with less material storm has Hundreds of comics to chose from and Cole only has 2 games and a wiki, and Yet Pope came up with a good and convincing argument.

Nice debate both of you make sure to remind me not to challenge either of you

#43 Posted by THUNDERBOLT30 (10676 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll go with @roddy010 he had more evidence, more ways for Storm to win, less theory with his argument, and Pope couldn't prove his counters one way or another. IMO Speculation is just that, speculation and can't be taken all the way in a debate.

Agreed. When I watched the videos I am seeing more speculation on Beast/Coles powers. The only real attack that is a threat I saw is the citywide explosion in the video. That's about it. Everything else is speculation and from my own game play of Infamous 1 and 2 Cole, even with Beast's abilities being added, isn't sufficient to clear a majority IMO. No solid answer for Storm's powers (flight for evasion and her wind applications have some good arguments, and extreme cold sounds like it could be effective).

Vote to @roddy010.

#44 Posted by Roddy010 (5314 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks for the votes everyone.

Pope-3

Roddy-2

#45 Edited by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll vote Roddy, Cole/Beast arguments were interesting, but the videos did contradict some of the points, like how althought beast t didn't use fire, he seemed to be made of Magma and lava in his changed state, it was also odd that lighting bolts affected him. His vortex pull seemed unimpressive because Cole with limited propulsion could avoid it and Storm can fly much faster with a lot more force behind her. Also the "City wide" explosion after Beast give his powers away didn't seem really City wide at all, although it may have destroyed the city, literally after the explosion you see a clock tower falling on people, and the immediate area left in rubble, but a good deal of the people were alive and well, and part of the city was still intact. If the blast was suppose to destroy the city completely i honestly didn't see that. Also as Roddy pointed out Cole output although powerful and possibly limitless doesn't match Storm's at all. Also Cole hasn't fought an elemental of Storm caliber and the possibility of overloading does seem practical even though his energy source is limitless.

Both arguments were well thought through but as a lot of people pointed out, Cole's is mostly theoretical, and Storm's are proven.

#46 Posted by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio
@roddy010 said:

I think votes should only count backed by reasoning. thanks to those who voted and explained why.

Yeah sorry, I keep forgetting to ask people for reasoning. We'll go with that.

Score 3 - 3

@rogueshadow @wardemon32

What are your reasons for voting for me?

#47 Edited by RogueShadow (11228 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought that Pope would always target the points Roddy made at him more directly, and argued with his points better, Roddy had a lot of material to fly with making it more difficult for Pope to utilise his points in a functional and effective manner, overall I thought the debate was close, but the fact that there is less stuff to argue for the Beast with made me feel like Pope was really having to work for it, precisely because of the somewhat theorised nature of the powers, and he did it really well, that's why he gets my vote.

#48 Edited by Pope052 (3359 posts) - - Show Bio
#49 Posted by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

@pope052 said:

@rogueshadow:

Thanks for giving a reason.

Score: 4 - 3

why are you changing the score when you asked him to explain why he already picked you??? it's Still 3 - 3

#50 Posted by Lvenger (20864 posts) - - Show Bio

Pope did a really top job, the best he could but a lot of his arguments were based on speculations of Cole's electrokinetic powers along with the ionic drain. I feel @roddy010 managed to provide the relevant feats and showings to counter Pope's arguments even though Pope technically debated better, he didn't have enough evidence to prove his points like roddy did.