#1 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4031 posts) - - Show Bio

Sovereign91001

Spider-Man (Peter Parker)

Wolverine

Veitha

Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew)

Mystique

Battle Conditions

Winner by K.O, Death or Incapacitation

Full Knowledge

In Character

No Prep

Mystique has an Assault Rifle with 4 extra clips

Standard gear for all other combatants

Starting distance 150 feet

Fight takes place in an empty Wal-Mart

#2 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4031 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha

Everything look good to you, any changes you'd like to make?

#3 Posted by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sovereign91001: Everything's right!

Well, the empty Wallmart is a big advantage for my team because Mistique would become instantly invisible at the very start of the battle. She can hide her scent so Logan won't be able to detect her(she had sex with him while posing as Yukio and he didn't recognize her). Her camouflage is good enough that only termals can reveal her.

Then she can attack your team very easily, exspecially considering that Jessica would be using her pheromones to mess with their minds.

In fact, she would use the pheromones to manipulate them from the beggining of the battle. They've worked easily on Hulk, and he's very resistant to any kind of mental manipulation, so they would work also on Spidey and Logan.

So at the start of the battle they would be at least confused by the pheromones. Then Mistique - that is still invisible - and Jessica would just have to hit them hard.

Jessica is gonna take care of Logan. She has just to hit him with a venom blast to freeze his brain and then he's KO. They've worked on an amped Hulk and she can also generate e lighting storm to hit targets at 360 degrees.

While Jessica hits Logan, Mistique shots at Spidey. She's invisible and she's got no scent so I don't know if the Spidersense could work very well, especially considering that Jessica is still using her pheromones to mess with his mind. Anyway, Mistique doesn't need her rifle to harm him coz she's got many forms that she can shape into, and she can grow wings, tendrils, weapons etc.

#4 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4031 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha:

Okay let's get started:

They are starting 150 ft apart, do Jessica's pheromones have that kind of range?

Wolverine has shown resistance to his healing factor also reguarly deals with Omega Red's death factor pheromones with no problem, I have no trouble believing his healing factor would do likewise against Jessica's pheromones. Full knowledge withstanding Spider-Man has fought Jessica before and hasn't shown any vulnerability to her pheromones either. Also my understanding is that here pheromones elect desire not mentally control them, that scan (from Avengers Assemble iirc) has Hulk's mental constitution far weaker than either Logan's or Peter's so even if Jessica was able to ensnare either or both with her attraction pheromones I'm convinced they'd be able to resist the effects given their particular histories and knowledge of each other on the Avengers.

Spidey doesn't need to see Raven avoid her, his Spider Sense let's him keep track of his enemies even if he can't see them. I don't know if Mystique has enough to put Spidey down without the rifle, he has insane durability, tanking hits from Marvel's heavy hitters (Morlun, Juggs, Hulk, Rhino etc. ) on a regular basis... it takes a lot to put Peter down.

Can you provide a scan of that Mystique/Logan scene you referenced, to my knowledge Mystique has never been able to do that before and in fact her scent is how Wolverine consistently identifies her, was this a recent development? As for her Venom Blast I seem to remember Logan tanking it before, I'm looking for the scan atm.

My strategy would be to have Peter fight Jess and Logan go for Raven both have shown capability to beat them before. However I'll post how I think this fight will go either way.

Spidey VS Mystique: His spider sense allows him to avoid her sneak attack, he either has the option of wrapping her and her gun in a web cocoon and hanging her from the ceiling or knocking her out, (her durability to blunt force trauma is pretty low to my knowledge) getting a win via incap or knockout. Spider-Man is a good deal faster, stronger, and more durable than her she doesn't have the reflexes to keep pace with him so he should be able to score a win here.

Spidey VS Jessica: This one is harder for Peter but he should still pull a win, his W.O.T.S combined with his Spider Sense should more than put him on an even footing with her, the one time I recall that she did beat him she was brainwashed and he didn't have his Spider Sense, I believe he holds a speed advantage over her with his better showings (unless you can prove otherwise) a greater experience combating Spider powered opponents and

Logan VS Jessica: Logan has demonstrated sufficient speed to keep up with Spidey, he shouldn't have a problem with Jess, her flight is negated by his leaping ability and the ceiling of the store, her best bet would be to keep her distance and spam Venom Blasts, the problem with that however is the aisle of the store make this hard for her to get a clean shot and at best that's a stalling tactic, Spider-Man should finish up with Mystique fairly quickly imo and she'd be facing both of them. If she wants to engage him up close Logan's skill should let him find a way to knock her as his h2h is better imo.

Logan VS Mystique: Even if Mystique can mask her scent completely and get past Logan's hearing and sneak attack him, She's gonna get one shot and I'm not sure Mystique can put Logan down without something like the M-Blade or Carbodinum bullets to aid her; his healing factor is to high and he's too tough and while I know she can shift her organs around Wolverine's greater fighting skill, speed etc. should let him take her down solidly, it'll be a matter of time till he hits something vital or her body accumulates enough general trauma that it shuts down.

I think Mystique is your weak link here and no matter who she takes on I see this becoming at worst two clean wins for my guys or a 2 on 1 for you. I'm gathering scans for everything I posted and will have them ready for your rebuttal.

#5 Edited by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sovereign91001:

Her pheromones have worked on both Spider-Man and Wolverine even if she wasn't using them consciously:

And she can use them instantly, so if Logan and Peter go near her she can stop them like she did with this member of the Wrecking Crew:

He was going to hit her but then he stopped because she started using her pheromones to mess with his mind. I don't think that Omega Red pheromones count coz they weren't use to control Logan's mind but he used them to damage him physically, and so his healing factor worked, but those won't affect his body but only his mind, and he was easily affected by

Daken's pheromones in the past. During her solo series, Spider-Woman agent of S.W.O.R.D., she was able to control an entire room of policeman using her pheromones(I'll upload the scan as soon as I can but now I don't have a scanner).

After her resurrection and his solo series Mistique has shown stronger levels of shapeshifting. As I said I don't have a scanner now so I can't load the scan, but in Wolverine #304 she had sex with him hiding her scent to make it smell like Yukio's one, so she can easily become invisible and become indectable to Logan. Has Spidey ever faced a totally invisible enemy that can also hide his scent??

Anyway, my strategy would be the opposite of yours: Jessica would go after Logan while Mistique attacks Peter.

Jessica has already shown to be able to fight - and win - against Wolverine using only her H2H abilities.

Here she's easily beaten him, and she hasn't used all of her powers ans skills. If she wants to beat Logan she has just to use her venom blasts on his skull to paralize him or to melt his brain. They've worked on Hulk and Warpath, for example, and they're both more resistant than Logan.

Jessica was also able to avoid Peter's attacks and she doesn't have spider-sense.

In that scan Spidey was able to avoid it but he had to avoid only a one-directional blast, while she can emit them at 360 degrees, like in the scan I posted before. As he ever avoid an attack like that?? She can also emitt multiple bolts at the same time and she can fly, so she'll be able to avoid most of Logan's attacks and, as in the scan I posted before, she can also dodge Peter's webs.

As for Mistique... She can turn into many useful forms that can help here.

In most of her fights against Logan writers don't write her at full power, but she can do many things that could hurt both Peter and Logan.

In the first three scans she's able to keep a giant form that gives her extra strenght, resistance and another face behing her head(she created it dividing the hemispheres of her brain). In the fourth she's strong enough to destroy an helicopter using only her hands and she can also create tendrils to suffocate someone and in the fift scan she's changed her finger making it sharp enough to cut through organic matter. Remember that she's still invisible so Logan won't be able to detect her, and I don't know if Peter can. Anyway, she can move her internal organs to avoid Peter's attacks(she's moved her brain into her throat in Wolverine #303 to survive from a bullet in the forehead, so she can move every single part of her body to avoid any kind of attack that Peter can make) and she can also stretch like Mr.Fantastic to avoid his attacks. If she moves fast enough she can cut through Peter's chest and kill him immediatelly. She is very fast, fast enough to avoid a missile with a jump:

In the second scan she can become as thin as a piece of paper, enough to survive to a bomb.

It's enough for her to avoid Peter's or Logan's attacks, and then she can cut through Peter's chest while Jessica takes care of Logan.

#6 Posted by Chaos Prime (10842 posts) - - Show Bio

Enjoying this Debate :)

#7 Posted by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

@Chaos Prime: I'm glad you like it :)

#8 Posted by Chaos Prime (10842 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha said:

@Chaos Prime: I'm glad you like it :)

Great Scans, Good arguments by u both Wots there not to like :)

#9 Posted by 18hunt (2891 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 should win, but it could go either way. Good luck to all!

#10 Edited by Sovereign91001 (4031 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha:

Alrighty Sorry I got sidetracked but I'm back to continue this debate.

From what you're saying Mystique changed her scent she didn't get rid of it Logan and Peter would both know about this in keeping with the battle condition of Full Knowledge, she'll still have a scent that he can identify her with. Baring that unless his hearing is acute enough that he'll be able to here her breathing still.

From your scans her pheromones seem to have limited range, don't see anything that would have them effect my guys at the start of the match; and speaking of pheromones, You are correct in that Daken's Pheromones have affected Logan and Spidey however they were both able to resist the effects; Spidey by letting his Spider-Sense guide him, Logan by sheer force of will there shouldn't be a problem with either of them here doing the same thing. As for Omega Red's pheromones and Jessica's Logan's Healing Factor would treat both as foreign substances in his body and deal with them accordingly, in order for her pheromones to affect his mind they have to be processed through his body.

While destroying a helicopter barehanded is impressive as I said earlier both of my guys have tanked blows in the class100+ level and remained standing, Mystique hasn't shown anywhere close to the strength to put either one of them down here are some durability showings from them both;

and while Mystiques reflexes may be peak human, both of Spidey's and Logan's are greater than that by a large margin and tbh niether of them need to see her to hurt her both can fight blinded:

The scan of her and him in the jungle from New Avengers isn't even her iirc but a skrull dopleganger bring the feat into question, even still she got a temporary advantage on him, she stabs him trough the neck, he was pissed and the only reason she wasn't gutted was because Cage stepped in during the following pannels.

Let's get to some scans, Spidey tracking opponents with his Spider sense

This next set was burrowed from the Spider-Man VS Gorgan thread here on Comicvine by way of , thank you for uploading these to the site.

Just to reiterate Spidey doesn't need to see his opponents to avoid them, and his Spider Sense can be used to compensate for pheromones.

I haven't seen anything that would dispute anything I said in my last post so I look forward to your rebuttal.

#11 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4031 posts) - - Show Bio

@Chaos Prime: @18hunt:

Thank you both, feel free to vote when we're finished.

#12 Edited by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sovereign91001:

Ok, le'ts go :)

Mistique could change her scent easily, so she could change to make it look like the scent of the environment they're in, making impossible to Logan to detect her in any way.

In the scans you posted Spider-Man is tracking visible targets, and in the first scan of his fight against Vulture it is said that he knew that he was gonna attack him but he didn't know that from where he was gonna attack him. And then he had time to focus on him, but he wouldn't be able to take so much time against my team coz Mistique or Jessica would kill him during that time.

Yes, Spidei has taken hits from very strong characters(even if his fight against the Phoenix amped Colossus is PIS) but he's still vulnerable to pierce attacks like this one:

She can use an attack like this to cut right through S

pider-Man's chest and cut his heart with ease.

And Mistique's agility is not just peak human: she easily dodged a missile with a jump, and a missile goes very fast lol at least supersonic speed, so she's very fast. Fast enough to become completely invisible and extend her limbs to envelop Spider-Man and then cut through his chest. And don't forget that she can also fly and she's exhibited quite good flight feats like this ones:

In the secon scan she's able to dodge those projectiles while flying at close distance, so she could always fly away even if they're in a closed space.

As for pheromones, Daken's pheromones aren't the same as Jessica, they act in a different way. Jessica says that her pheromones make people love or fear her, they act in a more instinctive way while Daken's are more like "mind manipulation" and "illusion casting". Jessica's ones have worked on them before and she wasn't using them at full power. Using them Spidey and Logan would feel less predisposed to react to her attacks and they would fall in love with her, they maybe wouldn't even feel that she's using them like they didn't understand that she was using them during New Avengers. She can use them at distance, too. In these scans she's able to manipulate an entire police station with her pheromones, so they can diffuse very fast and they can permeate huge spaces.

Even if pheromones wouldn't work, she can always fly away and put herself at the right distance to attack them with venom bolts. I think that the scans of her fighting Wolverine are valid coz Veranke had all of her powers, memories and skills, it was like they were the same person. And when Logan tried to attack her after she was able to stop him easily, she wasn't even trying to fight anymore while Logan was, and if she didn't stop to hold him in that position he wouldn't have been able to move. And remember that she wasn't even using the venom bolts. At full strenght she was able to hurt Classic Juggernaut and I've already shown you scans of her fighing against Hulk and easily hurting him. An attack like that against Logan(she hurted Hulk blasting him directly in his brain) would KO him.

Classic Juggernaut

She's also got good reaction feats, and she's fought multiple enemies at the same time, and both Logan and Spidei couldn't fight some all of them together:

She was able to fight and win against Venom, Bullseye, Moonstone and Noh-Var, all of them at the same time.

And she can channel her attacks through other objects, so she could just channel them through the ground at the start of the battle:

And then she can use the 360 degrees attack I showed before to harm both Spidey and Logan, allowing her and Mystique to attack them while they're hit by multiple lightings.

And she was only 17 when she used this attacks, and her powers were weaker than her current powers.

#13 Posted by Chaos Prime (10842 posts) - - Show Bio

Again another close call here but my vote is for Veitha.

Well done to u both :)

#14 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4031 posts) - - Show Bio

@Chaos Prime: lol I'm not done and we haven't agreed to vote yet!

#15 Posted by Chaos Prime (10842 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sovereign91001 said:

@Chaos Prime: lol I'm not done and we haven't agreed to vote yet!

Good :) been enjoying this debate.

#16 Edited by Sovereign91001 (4031 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha said:

Mistique could change her scent easily, so she could change to make it look like the scent of the environment they're in, making impossible to Logan to detect her in any way.

Unless she can silence her breathing and heartbeat he can still pick her out, his hearing is that acute

In the scans you posted Spider-Man is tracking visible targets, and in the first scan of his fight against Vulture it is said that he knew that he was gonna attack him but he didn't know that from where he was gonna attack him. And then he had time to focus on him, but he wouldn't be able to take so much time against my team.

Not so visible; Against Daken he has his eyes closed and says he is letting his Spider sense guide him (he even states as much), Against Vulture he is blind he might as well not be able to see them but if you want more showings I'll provide them. The 'time to focus' is clearly a time dilation meant to show the passage between seconds he doesn't need time to focus Spider sense has been stated by him to make his body to move before he thinks to make it move.

coz Mistique or Jessica would kill him during that time.

All characters are in character, there are two characters here who will try to kill: Raven and Logan. Jessica has killed iirc but it wouldn't be in her character to outright go for the kill against either Logan or Peter two men she respects and considers friends. It is much more likely she would try to knock them out.

Yes, Spidei has taken hits from very strong characters(even if his fight against the Phoenix amped Colossus is PIS)

How is it PIS: Spidey did absolutely no damage to Colossus, Colossus clearly wasn't even using a fraction of his power (Magick notes this) and all Peter did was get whomped on. It's consistent with other beatings he recieved, his fights with Morlun come to mind. IMO PIS would have him blitzing the pair or something else similar to that, it's a valid durability showing.

but he's still vulnerable to pierce attacks like this one, She can use an attack like this to cut right through Spider-Man's chest and cut his heart with ease.

She'll have to tag him first and I'm about to show why she's not going to be able to.

And Mistique's agility is not just peak human: she easily dodged a missile with a jump, and a missile goes very fast lol at least supersonic speed, so she's very fast.

Didn't look so easy to me, she barely avoided the misssle and got caught by the explosion. Not as fast as Spidey. Some things to consider; that missile was fired from a distances Spidey has been shown to avoid point blank bullets lasers, lightning been shown to avoid bullets point blank. And that's just agility what about reactions? I'm fairly confident I can put up showings that'll show both of my guys outclass Mystique's reactions by a large margin.

Fast enough to become completely invisible and extend her limbs to envelop Spider-Man and then cut through his chest.

Her invisibility (such as it is) is a non factor for either of my guys as you will see in a moment.

In the secon scan she's able to dodge those projectiles while flying at close distance, so she could always fly away even if they're in a closed space.

Not her best bet in an enclosed space with guys who have the leaping ability Spidey and Wolverine have showcased.

As for pheromones, Daken's pheromones aren't the same as Jessica, they act in a different way. Jessica says that her pheromones make people love or fear her, they act in a more instinctive way while Daken's are more like "mind manipulation" and "illusion casting". Jessica's ones have worked on them before and she wasn't using them at full power. Using them Spidey and Logan would feel less predisposed to react to her attacks and they would fall in love with her, they maybe wouldn't even feel that she's using them like they didn't understand that she was using them during New Avengers. She can use them at distance, too. In these scans she's able to manipulate an entire police station with her pheromones, so they can diffuse very fast and they can permeate huge spaces.

I have a couple of problems with this: One, as I've shown Logan and Peter both have ways to combat pheromones. Two

you've already shown Logan and Peter have experience with Jessica's pheromones specifically that means both of them are familiar and thanks to her aware of their effects and unlike a station full of police men who had no idea what they were being hit with can brace themselves mentally (both of them have exceptionally high willpower) to deal with them not even mentioning that both of them have had experience fighting women that they've been in love with and have managed to come out on top, this case should be no different.

Three the effect of the pheromones is academic and frankly irrelevant, the bottom line is both Daken's and Jessica's pheromones both alter perception and both of my guys have shown to be able to resist pheromones that do that in combat situations.

Even if pheromones wouldn't work, she can always fly away and put herself at the right distance to attack them with venom bolts.

It'll be hard in a Wal-Mart with aisle to hide in, she'll have to be almost directly overhead and either of my guys have the leaping ability to take her out of the air.

I think that the scans of her fighting Wolverine are valid coz Veranke had all of her powers, memories and skills, it was like they were the same person.

Arguable, she also demonstrated using those abilities at levels Jessica had never used them at.

And when Logan tried to attack her after she was able to stop him easily, she wasn't even trying to fight anymore while Logan was, and if she didn't stop to hold him in that position he wouldn't have been able to move. And remember that she wasn't even using the venom bolts.

Logan was hardly trying, if he was Cage wouldn't have been able to stop him, he was pissed and he cooled off. Also that situation was an ambush hardly applicable to a fight where both parties start in view of each other..

At full strenght she was able to hurt Classic Juggernaut.

I don't buy that, Juggs is completely invulnerable either he was de-powered or that is WIS/PIS.

and I've already shown you scans of her fighing against Hulk and easily hurting him. An attack like that against Logan(she hurted Hulk blasting him directly in his brain) would KO him.

I'm still searching for the scan of him tanking her Venom blast and as I stated earlier it's not in Jessica's character to go all out against a man she considers a friend and comrade while she's in character.

She's also got good reaction feats, and she's fought multiple enemies at the same time, and both Logan and Spidei couldn't fight some all of them together: She was able to fight and win against Venom, Bullseye, Moonstone and Noh-Var, all of them at the same time.

Now this is PIS, She couldn't handle Venom and any combination of those characters let alone all of them at the same time. Just to clarify I am not doubting her ability to engage multiple opponents but those in particular I don't buy.

And she can channel her attacks through other objects, so she could just channel them through the ground at the start of the battle:

Why would she do that? She's already aware of how fast Logan and Peter are and that Peter has a precognitive sense, seems to me like she'd be better served firing through air; a medium with much less resistance than the ground where she's going to have to pump more energy to get a lesser result.

And then she can use the 360 degrees attack I showed berore to harm both Spidey and Logan, allowing her and Mystique to attack them while they're hit by multiple lightings.

As you're about to see I have scans that disagree with you.

Scan time; scans 1-5 We have Spidey avoiding lasers and energy attacks; pay attention to number 5 a close enough analogue to Jessica's AOE venom blast. Scan 6 is Spidey using his Spider Sense to track danger from a considerable distance further proving he doesn't need to be directly in front of danger to track it. Scan 7 is an option Peter has to further reduce the effect of Jessica's pheromones for both him and Wolverine. Scan 8-14 are Spider Sense showings proving Spidey can't be snuck up on and is perfectly comfortable fighting unseen enemies or in the dark (where he can't see his enemies) 8,11,13 are of particular note.

Next up we have Logan using his hearing to track foes breathing and or heartbeat


And finally we have a reaction feat for Spidey.


Mystique barely manages to avoid a missile and Spidey manages to catch a bullet and dodge one at point blank while he's sick! This should illustrate the vast difference in reflex speed that I've been talking about. Notice in particular how Spidey is tracking the bullet as it's approaching him(time dilation again). I'd like to request some durability showings for Mystique as I haven't seen anything yet that would prove she has the durability to tank blows from Spider-Man.

#17 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4031 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha: Bump

#18 Posted by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sovereign91001: I'm very sorry for answering so late but I had some problem this week :)

Mistique could change her scent easily, so she could change to make it look like the scent of the environment they're in, making impossible to Logan to detect her in any way.
Unless she can silence her breathing and heartbeat he can still pick her out, his hearing is that acute
In the scans you posted Spider-Man is tracking visible targets, and in the first scan of his fight against Vulture it is said that he knew that he was gonna attack him but he didn't know that from where he was gonna attack him. And then he had time to focus on him, but he wouldn't be able to take so much time against my team.
Not so visible; Against Daken he has his eyes closed and says he is letting his Spider sense guide him (he even states as much), Against Vulture he is blind he might as well not be able to see them but if you want more showings I'll provide them. The 'time to focus' is clearly a time dilation meant to show the passage between seconds he doesn't need time to focus Spider sense has been stated by him to make his body to move before he thinks to make it move.

But none of these times his enemy was completely invisible.

He couldn't avoid this attack because Miles was invisible and he spider-sense didn't work. Mistique can also hide her scent so he won't be able to detect her, and then she can hurt him with the gun or using her powers. And I don't see how he could hurt her because she's always able to stretch like Mr.Fantastic and so he won't be able to hurt her physically.

It'll be hard in a Wal-Mart with aisle to hide in, she'll have to be almost directly overhead and either of my guys have the leaping ability to take her out of the air.

She can always

I think that the scans of her fighting Wolverine are valid coz Veranke had all of her powers, memories and skills, it was like they were the same person.
Arguable, she also demonstrated using those abilities at levels Jessica had never used them at.

Yeah, her powers seemed enhanced, but her fighting skills were pretty much the same she's used after and before that and her memories were pretty much the same until she found out that she was a Skrull.

Mystique barely manages to avoid a missile and Spidey manages to catch a bullet and dodge one at point blank while he's sick! This should illustrate the vast difference in reflex speed that I've been talking about. Notice in particular how Spidey is tracking the bullet as it's approaching him(time dilation again). I'd like to request some durability showings for Mystique as I haven't seen anything yet that would prove she has the durability to tank blows from Spider-Man.

She was able to avoid it without effort and she wasn't caught by the explosion: the page after she's avoided it she's getting invisible and the destroys the plane using only her hands. And a missile is far faster than a bullet, at least mach 3. I've already shown you the scan of Mistique being able to stretch her body to resist and explosion, so she could mimic Mr.Fantastic powers to avoid Spidey's hits.

And when Logan tried to attack her after she was able to stop him easily, she wasn't even trying to fight anymore while Logan was, and if she didn't stop to hold him in that position he wouldn't have been able to move. And remember that she wasn't even using the venom bolts.
Logan was hardly trying, if he was Cage wouldn't have been able to stop him, he was pissed and he cooled off. Also that situation was an ambush hardly applicable to a fight where both parties start in view of each other..

Logan was hardly trying, but Jessica wasn't, she didn't even try to react.

and I've already shown you scans of her fighing against Hulk and easily hurting him. An attack like that against Logan(she hurted Hulk blasting him directly in his brain) would KO him.
I'm still searching for the scan of him tanking her Venom blast and as I stated earlier it's not in Jessica's character to go all out against a man she considers a friend and comrade while she's in character.

Even if she's in character she won't stand in front of him without doing anything: she knows who Wolverine is and what is powers are, so she would try to stop him in any possible way because she knows how dangerous he is. She'd use her venom bolts with enough strenght to incapacitate him or fry his brain.

And she can channel her attacks through other objects, so she could just channel them through the ground at the start of the battle:
Why would she do that? She's already aware of how fast Logan and Peter are and that Peter has a precognitive sense, seems to me like she'd be better served firing through air; a medium with much less resistance than the ground where she's going to have to pump more energy to get a lesser result.

She'd do that because Logan wouldn't be able to avoid it - while Spidey could be able to sense it and leap away, I don't see Wolverine being able to do anything like this . and the lights she generate could confuse both Logan and Spidey or at least blind them for enough time to allow her or Mistique to hit them hard.

In the secon scan she's able to dodge those projectiles while flying at close distance, so she could always fly away even if they're in a closed space.
Not her best bet in an enclosed space with guys who have the leaping ability Spidey and Wolverine have showcased.

That man is able to fly and walk on walls, so that's a very good feat. And projectiles go faster than claws.

She's also got good reaction feats, and she's fought multiple enemies at the same time, and both Logan and Spidei couldn't fight some all of them together: She was able to fight and win against Venom, Bullseye, Moonstone and Noh-Var, all of them at the same time.
Now this is PIS, She couldn't handle Venom and any combination of those characters let alone all of them at the same time. Just to clarify I am not doubting her ability to engage multiple opponents but those in particular I don't buy.

It may be PIS that she's able to put down Venom so easily, but I think that those scans show how fast she is with her powers(hitting Moonstone isn't too difficult for her, her intangible form can be hurt by energy attacks like Trance did during Utopia's arc).

The scans of Spidey avoiding that "light-man" attacks are good, but those aren't the same attacks I'm talking about.

Here the lightinings go on every direction, not only one, and randomly, I don't think that both Spidey and Logan could handle this.

Anyway, I think that at the start of the battle Mistique would go invisible and go after Spidei while Logan and Jessica fight, and Jessica is fast enough to touch him on his head and charge his brain with electricity.

#19 Posted by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sovereign91001: bump

#20 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4031 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha: Oops, sorry I forgot about this! I'll get to this in a bit!

#21 Posted by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sovereign91001: ok, don't worry :)

#22 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4031 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha:

Okay this'll be my last post and closing statement for this one, when you post yours we can open this up to votes. I'll start by addressing some of your main points:

Mystique is invisible to Spider-Man's Spider Sense/ Wolverine's Hyper Senses.

But none of these times his enemy was completely invisible. He couldn't avoid this attack because Miles was invisible and he spider-sense didn't work. Mistique can also hide her scent so he won't be able to detect her, and then she can hurt him with the gun or using her powers. And I don't see how he could hurt her because she's always able to stretch like Mr.Fantastic and so he won't be able to hurt her physically.

You haven't proved that Mystique can hide her scent all you have demonstrated is that she can possibly (I haven't seen a scan or context so at this point it's nothing more than hearsay) change her scent which I'm inclined to call PIS because Wolverine has always been able to smell Raven when she's in disguise, regardless though she'll still have a scent and he can track it, even if she elimnates her scent completely he can still track her by the absence of her scent, he's done the same thing to Fantomex (one of his abilities is that he doesn't have a scent period):

Now if he was able to do that in a sewer with all its overpowering odors a abandoned store should be no problem for him. You also haven't proved that she can hide her heartbeat or breathing (all I've seen is he chameloning into a wall) as I've shown Logan is perfectly capable of tracking his foes by sound alone he doesn't need his nose. Please show me some proof where Mystique has been able to hide her breathing or heart rate from Logan because I'm inclined to believe that if she could have she would have in one of their many encounters as Raven is not a dumb opponent. So as far as I can see he can track her by scent, lack of scent or sound; her stealth advantage is negated completely in this case.

Moving onto Peter; you claim because she Raven is invisible she would get the drop on him and would be invisible to his Spider Sense. I have proved (beyond reason I believe) that Spider-Man does not need to see his opponents to dodge them. The claim that none of the enemies is invisible is semantics; I've shown him dodging with his eyes closed, in complete darkness and blinded your opponents can't get any less visible than that. He's no-look dodged hundreds of time everything from enemies to bullets to teleporters so it's not the least bit inconsistent. As for the scans of Ultimate Spider-Man they don't hold water for a couple reasons; Peter's spider sense has been shown to be circumvented by the likes of Ezekiel: he didn't trigger Peter's Spider-Sense once because of their shared powers; I'm more inclined to believe that is the case with Miles as opposed to a visibility factor and as Mystique doesn't share that origin/shared power with Spidey that showing while interesting is non applicable. Again unless you can prove otherwise I feel I have throughout disproved this; Spider-Man's spider sense should be triggered by Mystique whether she is visible or not. So as with Logan any stealth advantage she could claim has been negated

Your last statement about Mystique's stretching to be super durable ala Mr. Fantastic, I'll go into in the durability section below.

Mystique's durability/strength/reflexes

This one is a biggie: You claimed that Spider-Man would be unable to harm Mystique because she can stretch herself out like Mr. Fantastic, that is not true.

These scans are context from the one you showed with Mystique getting blown up, as you can see (despite turning herself paper thin) she is quite harmed from this explosion (an explosion that Logan easily walks away from) In the last scan there are clear wobble lines around her indicating an unsteady gait, couple that with her clutching the wall and it's plain to see that stretching herself paper thin does not make her impervious to injury. In terms of reflexes you showed Mystique dodging a rocket and aim dodging gunfire neither showing places her near the level of (comic) superhuman reflexes, added to the fact that Mystique doesn't (from what I can find) have any consistent showings in that department I'm inclined to label her reflexes somewhere above average to peak human, still a far cry from the reflex showings both Logan and Peter have shown over the years

Strength wise Mystique isn't going to KO either Spidey or Logan from blunt force trauma, that leaves her with the option of using piercing damage. With Spidey, I don't think she has the reflexes to tag him coupled with his Spider-Sense he should have no problem avoiding and counter attacking with webs or a punch either way she should go down.

As for Logan he's been on the winning side of nearly every fight he and Mystique have had and I don't see this being any different, here is one of their fights

Note these scans are in reversed order.

Logan aces Raven in one panel; his healing factor is too much for her to overcome and she doesn't have the h2h to best him either.

I've shown a bunch of reaction/dodging feats for Spidey here are some for Logan

Jessica can OHKO Logan with a Venom Blast/ Spider-Man can't dodge her Venom Blast

The scans of Spidey avoiding that "light-man" attacks are good, but those aren't the same attacks I'm talking about. Here the lightinings go on every direction, not only one, and randomly, I don't think that both Spidey and Logan could handle this.

It's an aproxamation and a fair one at that; a multi directional energy based attack. the fact that the lightning goes in every direction and moves randomly is of no consequence. Lightning unlike the laser would follow the path of least resistances it'll be attracted to surfaces that conduct it like the metal shelves etc. so Jess would be pouring out energy needlessly to shock metal shelves, also take a look at that scan there are dozens of safe spots places where the lightning is arcing around, places Spidey can dodge and move to. His reflexes are certainly fast enough he dodges Electro's lightning blasts all the time. Using an A.O.E attack at the begining wouldn't be smart of Jess either; with an attack like that she'd be just as likely to hit Raven as well. Imo while it's a cool attack to look at it's not very practical for this combat situation with these opponents (which is why I suspect we don't see her do this all the time).

Moving onto Wolverine; I couldn't find the scan I wanted but I think I did one better:

That's not Thor it's Ragnarok and after the brutal beating Logan takes and the Lightning strike he is still conscious, this isn't unusal for Logan as he's tanked Storm's lightning bolts as well and enough electricity to kill a whole herd of elephants.

With all that said I don't think Jess is one shoting him (especially with her morals on)

Spidey dodging Electro's blasts

Final Analysis

I don't really see anything I have to change in my initial strategy, I still believe Mystique is going to be your team's weakest link; I think she's just outmatched by either Logan or Spidey, she doesn't have the reflexes to hang with either and history is working against her in her fights with Logan, I think she'll be out of the equation sooner rather than later. Jess is a good match for either of these guys and could take wins off either of them in the right circumstances but ultimately I don't see her beating both of them together.

I'm satisfied with my argument, thank you for an interesting debate and I'll turn it over to you. Best of luck to you in the upcoming vote.

Viners please remember your voting for who you think made the better case for their team and not just who you think would win in a fight, thank you.

#23 Edited by Veitha (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sovereign91001: Ok, I'm going to answer very shortly because I've said all I had to say about this, and then we could start voting.

  • I didn't show the scan of her changing her scent, but I told you the issue where this happened(I don't have a scan, so I can upload it). If she can change her scent it means that she will be able to make it smell like something else, making impossible for Logan to distinguish her ​​from any other object in the warehouse;
  • Mystique didn't full recover from that explosion, but after a few minutes she was still walking and healing. And remember that both Logan and Spidey can't hit her as heavy as an explosion like that;
  • I showed a scan of Mystique using her finger to cut through Shark.Girl, she will do the same to Spidey cutting through his chest and cutting his heart away;
  • Logan has taken hits from both Ragnarok and Storm, right, but Jess' powers will be able to hit his brain, while Storm's and Ragnarok's were only directed against his external body;
  • Spidey can dodge Electro's lightning, but I don't think that he could dodge a 360 degrees attack with lightings directed randomly(Elektro has directed his blasts with his own will, so this allowed Spidey to dodge them).
  • Mystique isn't a weak link, if she attacks Spidey when completely hide and with her scent changed she will be fast enough to hit him with with her sharp fingers or using her gun, and then Jess can go after Logan to attack him. After Spidey is done Mystique could help her to take out Logan.

I think we could open votes now! Very cool debate, I had a lot of fun debating with you :) I'm only sorry that I couldn't upload all the scans I wanted(as the one of Mystique hiding her scent) because my scanner didn't work.

#24 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4031 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay this one is open for voting