CaV: Sovereign91001 (Arrow) vs JediXMan (Suzaku)

Knight of Zero Suzaku

VS

Green Arrow (Arrow)

Battle Conditions:

• Morals Standard/In Character
• Standard Gear
• Winner by KO or Death

Location: Empty Warehouse (combatants start on opposite ends, out of sight).

@JediXMan Thread's up, everything look good?

First time seeing Arrow in a CaV. Should be dope.

This is one I'll watch.Luck to both y'all and tag porfa

Looks good.

You can go first. I'll post feats in the morning.

@sovereign91001: @jedixman: Tag me for voting please.

FANTOMEX SOLOS!!

*Runs out of thread*

@wolverine08: I'll try my best lol.

@reaverlation: Will do.

@JediXMan Okay, just as a heads up; I'll be using feats from the comic & TV show. The comic is canon to the show and mainly just an expanded set of the TV show; it references events and elaborates on storylines etc. I'm also limiting myself to season 1 feats; back when Ollie would kill.

Let's get to it!

Opener

Well the first thing Oliver is going to want to do is get to a higher vantage point; either in the rafters or on top of the shelves. He can climb the shelves and he has a grappling arrow to get him up to the rafters if he wanted too go that route. In character he likes to stick to the shadows and has no problem taking out people from the shadows like so:

He also likes to use misdirection in battle by causing chaos and attacking from multiple angles. When able to he tends to favor attacking in the dark or low light conditions; he's been known to cut the power to a location prior to engaging in combat and as you've seen he's perfectly comfortable fighting in darkness.

So after getting a vantage point to scope out the battlefield he'd likely look to cut the power. He's obviously a master of stealth and can get within feet of his opponents without their being any of the wiser

So after cutting the power Ollie would use his stealth and attempt to locate Suzaku; he shouldn't have much trouble he's a proficent tracker. After finding his quarry Ollie would likely open with an arrow shot. You also got to see a bit of his accuracy; what he aims for he hits so dodging his shots could be difficult for Suzaku, especially since they'd be coming out of the dark from seemingly multiple angles. If the fight moves to hand to hand Ollie is comfortable there as well.

To recap for my opener Ollie will:

• Get to a higer vantage point to get sight on the battlefield.
• Cut the power in the warehouse if possible to shape battlefield conditions to his advantage.
• Use his stealth to get into an advantageous position for a possible sneak attack.
• Open fire with arrows, attacking from multiple angles creating chaos and misdirection to keep Suzaku off balance.

With that I'll toss it to you.

@deathstrokergeist: Sure thing.

I wanted to use Fantomex too...

@sovereign91001: sweet warm up

@reaverlation: thanks.

@sovereign91001:

Nice.

Now, let's begin with Suzaku's abilities:

Background:

Suzaku Kururugi was trained as a Samurai since a young age, one of his teachers being the great General Tohdoh. He continued to wear traditional clothes while he trained in privacy.

He entered the Britannian military as a foot soldier. He eventually became a test pilot to the Lancelot, where he applied his martial arts to his mech's offensive moves, making the combination extremely unique.

He was later given the command to Live by Lelouch, not long before becoming a Knight of the Round - one of the most powerful Knights in Britannia. He was later given the rank Knight of Zero, right before defeating the Knight of One (the most powerful Knight in Britannia, who has precog).

Speed and General Martial Arts feats:

Suzaku's best feats involve speed, precision, and accuracy.

Out running machine gun fire, wall running, and destroying the gun with a kick.

Three things happen in the next clip: Suzaku shoots his weapon - aiming at his opponent's own weapon, a feat of accuracy - and bullet-times his opponent's bullet. Before his opponent can fire a second shot, he disarms them with a kick.

3:35

While jumping from an impressive height, he knocks back several royal guards and breaks their blades, all with a single hit.

1:20

Live Command:

This is... interesting.

Lelouch ordered Suzaku to "Live." This command, however, was not just for the moment, but forever. Because of that, Suzaku - who wants to die for what he has done - is forced to live. What does the Live command do?

Well, it causes Suzaku to do whatever it takes to live in a scenario, pushing his body to the absolute limits, and even overriding his morals to survive. In one scene, just to save his own life, he destroys Tokyo and countless innocent lives - which is something he vowed he would never do.

In one scene, he reacts to an assassination attempt. Note that he didn't react; the Live command activated, taking control from him. It does not always activate: prior to gaining control, it only activated when his own skills might not be enough, or he was unwilling to make an attempt to save his own life. (I can't find the video)

However, after becoming the Knight of Zero, Suzaku gained control of the Live command. When he first fought the Knight of One (who has precog), the Live command forced Suzaku to run away. After gaining control, he overloaded the Knight of One's precog and was able to beat him. While he is using a mech here, the feat is how his Live command works against outright precog.

Here is a scene where he and Lelouch, together, deactivate a FLEIJA warhead (think nuclear). Suzaku uses the Live command to push himself in order to do what he must in the required time limit (0.04 seconds).

Now, for strategy:

Strategy:

Suzaku is quite direct in combat. However, he is an accomplished strategist, who was able to outwit experienced Black Knight commanders - including his old master, General Tohdoh.

Being in the dark wouldn't really hurt Suzaku. He doesn't have to see his opponent to react to life-threatening danger. His body automatically reacts, whether he wants it to or not.

While Ollie is certainly a better shot, Suzaku should be able to close the distance by dodging every arrow or other attack Arrow has, while cutting him down when he gets close. It comes down to the fact that Suzaku is faster and can dodge hits.

Unfortunately, I can't find the necessary videos for the following:

• Suzaku cutting a wire in mid-air without altering the wire's momentum.
• As I said: assassination attempt.
• Suzaku casually catching knives thrown by the Knight of Ten, which he didn't know were coming until they were coming at him.

Good luck, tag me for when voting starts.

@jedixman:

Suzaku's best feats involve speed, precision, and accuracy.

Out running machine gun fire, wall running, and destroying the gun with a kick.

While certainly visually impressive the machine gun feat is certainly possible to replicate for Ollie or most bullet time heroes; according to the other guy (don't know his name) the delay on the computer was .05 seconds or 5 centiseconds; in comparison normal Human reaction take place in about 300-400 milliseconds an order of magnitude about 10 times faster. That being said I'm not sure there is a speed difference between our characters Ollie has plenty of bullet dodges; albeit without the cool afterimages (he does have a couple with blur lines though).

Point blank bullet dodge from Arrow's version of Deadshot.

Dodges automatic gunfire and a point blank pistol shot

I think that illustrates the point I'm trying to make.

While Ollie is certainly a better shot, Suzaku should be able to close the distance by dodging every arrow or other attack Arrow has, while cutting him down when he gets close. It comes down to the fact that Suzaku is faster and can dodge hits.

I addressed the faster point; as for dodging arrows Ollie's been able to tag peak and low level superhumans with his arrows such as Deadshot and Deathstroke; in fact in this cannon he's the one who blinded Slade when he shot an arrow through his eye after he'd been enhanced with Mirakuru (the in Universe Super Soldier serum.) And he's riddiculously accurate so tagging Suzaku shouldn't be a problem and as Suzaku closes distance Ollie's shots are going to be correspondingly more difficult to dodge.

Ollie's accuracy is great enough he should be able to lead his shots and hit Suzaku; it isn't like he's moving faster than Oliver can track (he's hit speeding cars before). He's good enough that he knows how and where to shot to immobilize without killing; he's hit eyes, nerves, etc. he shouldn't have trouble landing a shot, even with Suzaku's pre-cog.

Another thing to consider Ollie can fire two arrows at once; this could be used to confuse Suzaku from multiple sources of danger.

If he did that he'd be certain to contact with at least one of them. He has other options as well, including flechettes (these come in the regular and tranquilizer versions).

And although the first season used them sparingly Oliver does have a few trick arrows that could help him in this fight including the flare arrow which you saw in the first video I posted, the teargas arrow and the flashbang arrow.

Teargas arrow

2:03 Uses the flashbang arrow

2:53 Stabs himself with an arrow in order to take out his opponent.

All the trick arrows I listed have solid A.O.E which should make them next to impossible to avoid and can put Suzaku off balance long enough for Ollie to score a win. Beside's showing the trick arrow the other point of the video was to demonstrate that Ollie is willing to do whatever it takes to secure the win even stabbing himself; he's inventive in combat and if there's a way to take down his opponent he'll find it.

See what I mean? Hand to hand, distance fighting, mid-range comabat Ollie's got something for all ranges.

So to sum this one up:

• Ollie's accuracy and experience fighting other peak humans should allow him to tag Suzaku
• He has multi-arrow shots & trick arrows with AOE attacks to counter Suzaku's precog.
• Flechette's for mid-range combat.
• Ollie's hand to hand skills and innovative combat style should allow him to find a way to disable/kill Suzaku.

I fail to see what the human reaction is. That's a matter of perception, not the human body's reaction time. If this were true, anybody would be capable of bullet timing.

Perhaps. But it's worth noting that Suzaku was dodging automatic and Knightmare gunfire. That is done with the assistance of a computer, and is therefore not subject to human error regarding aiming abilities.

This article states that you would need a reaction time of 0.20 seconds to dodge a bullet from a pretty significant distance. Suzaku was about... 50 feet from a fully automatic turret, and dodged it with ease. In that clip, he displayed a reaction time of 0.05 seconds.

It's not precog, or at least not in the sense that you mean. He doesn't see the future; what happens is that his body will react to any danger he is in if he cannot, will not, or does not react of his own accord. It will automatically put his body and mind into overdrive. In the part with the FLEIJA, his mind and body react far faster than they otherwise would, so that he is able to do what he must with perfect timing.

Originally, he had no control. But now he has full control over his abilities. When he charged Waldstein, he knew that he would survive, because his body would react to it. It was a straight attack, where his body would instinctively react faster than Waldstein would.

It's essentially automatic adaptability, temporary amp, and a danger sense all in one. It's worth noting that he didn't require that to do any of the bullet-time feats I showed earlier.

You're also assuming that Ollie will know how his danger sense works. Why would he believe it is a superhuman ability and not just a fast human being?

Spread wouldn't work, but AoE could be effective. However, what arrows are considered standard equipment, which he would bring on his missions regularly?

I'm not saying he doesn't. But I question his ability to hit Suzaku with standard arrows. Suzaku regularly dodges bullets from gun turrets and Knightmares; bullets travel much faster than arrows.

Here is Suzaku (dressed as Zero) dodging machine gun fire from 3 Sutherland Knightmares. He is also shown jumping quite high while leaping around the Knightmares and over Gottwald (note: Gottwald and Lelouch - the man in white - are the only ones holding back. The Knightmare pilots were not). That jumping feat would be beneficial in this location, allowing him to dive back and forth between cover (no, the Zero costume does not boost his stats, and he wasn't using the Live command).

2:40

@sovereign91001: please tag me for the voting

@godzilla44: Sure thing.

@jedixman: For some reason I didn't get your tag...I think the site's still experiencing hiccups. O_o I'll have a response up later today.

It most certainly is.

@jedixman

I fail to see what the human reaction is. That's a matter of perception, not the human body's reaction time. If this were true, anybody would be capable of bullet timing.

Perhaps. But it's worth noting that Suzaku was dodging automatic and Knightmare gunfire. That is done with the assistance of a computer, and is therefore not subject to human error regarding aiming abilities.

This article states that you would need a reaction time of 0.20 seconds to dodge a bullet from a pretty significant distance. Suzaku was about... 50 feet from a fully automatic turret, and dodged it with ease. In that clip, he displayed a reaction time of 0.05 seconds.

Well besides the numbers behind that feat, which I don't have one for Oliver, based on equivilent feats, I don't see much of a speed difference between our characters and while dodging gunfire from a computer assisted machine gun is impressive; Ollie dodged point blank automatic gunfire from a world class marksman in Deadshot; who prior to encountering Oliver never missed a shot and that was before he got his cybernetic eye.

Spread wouldn't work, but AoE could be effective. However, what arrows are considered standard equipment, which he would bring on his missions regularly?

He has no standard go to set of arrows that we've seen (I think he's emptied his quiver twice) but going from average showings it'd be safe to say he usually carries a grappling arrow or two, a number of regular arrows/flechettes and a handful of trick arrows, he's used exploding, recording, hacking, flashbang arrows, etcetera, etcetera. He doesn't have the large repitorie of trick arrows that the comic Green Arrow has, but he has a few.

t's not precog, or at least not in the sense that you mean. He doesn't see the future; what happens is that his body will react to any danger he is in if he cannot, will not, or does not react of his own accord. It will automatically put his body and mind into overdrive. In the part with the FLEIJA, his mind and body react far faster than they otherwise would, so that he is able to do what he must with perfect timing.

Originally, he had no control. But now he has full control over his abilities. When he charged Waldstein, he knew that he would survive, because his body would react to it. It was a straight attack, where his body would instinctively react faster than Waldstein would.

It's essentially automatic adaptability, temporary amp, and a danger sense all in one. It's worth noting that he didn't require that to do any of the bullet-time feats I showed earlier.

You're also assuming that Ollie will know how his danger sense works. Why would he believe it is a superhuman ability and not just a fast human being?

I didn't mean to imply that Ollie would know how his danger sense works; merely that regardless of it he has options to tag him and or the ability to do so...he has dealt with people fast enough to avoid his arrows before so he'd likely assume Suzaku fell into that category. Should he be unable to tag him with a regualr arrow, he could resort to a trick arrow or move in close for melee fighting or flechette range.

I'm not saying he doesn't. But I question his ability to hit Suzaku with standard arrows. Suzaku regularly dodges bullets from gun turrets and Knightmares; bullets travel much faster than arrows.

This may be true however the caliber of marksman needs to enter into the equation as well, has he avoided shots from someone with the pinpoint accuracy that Oliver has?

That jumping feat would be beneficial in this location, allowing him to dive back and forth between cover

Very impressive, but Ollie could move around the rafters if he needs too and you've already seen he has no problem leaping from vantage point to vantage point to get a shot...that said if he failed to tag Sazuku with three or four arrows in-character he'd come down and engage him at a close range (either with the bow or in h2h).

@jedixman bump.

tag me when finished, this shall be good

@allstarsuperman: Sure.

@sovereign91001 :

I got the Arrow graphic novel (Volume 1) for Christmas. This definitely wants me to debate with Arrow sometime.

@fetts: It was a pretty awesome run I was bummed that they ended it.

@dorukesin: Thanks.

this is good

A lot of people dodge guns. Dodging a gun and dodging the bullets themselves are two entirely different things; there are martial arts techniques that involve disarming opponents before / as they fire their weapon. He was able to dodge before Deadshot fired, not after. In the other scan, it showed him taking cover, while Suzaku dodged continuous fire. With the machine gun, it appeared to be a distance of about 50 ft. In the scan with the Knightmares (where he was dodging three of them), it looked like about 200 ft of continuous fire.

It's less about dodging and more about his ability to outrun them without any cover whatsoever.

He has no standard go to set of arrows that we've seen (I think he's emptied his quiver twice) but going from average showings it'd be safe to say he usually carries a grappling arrow or two, a number of regular arrows/flechettes and a handful of trick arrows, he's used exploding, recording, hacking, flashbang arrows, etcetera, etcetera. He doesn't have the large repitorie of trick arrows that the comic Green Arrow has, but he has a few.

But does he always possess them? I know about the standard, the grappling, and the hacking. But the other varieties I am a bit doubtful of; from what I've seen, he usually grabs different arrows for if he thinks he'll need them - not in a random encounter where he thinks he'll just fight thugs.

I didn't mean to imply that Ollie would know how his danger sense works; merely that regardless of it he has options to tag him and or the ability to do so...he has dealt with people fast enough to avoid his arrows before so he'd likely assume Suzaku fell into that category. Should he be unable to tag him with a regualr arrow, he could resort to a trick arrow or move in close for melee fighting or flechette range.

Flechette might be an issue, I give you that. But I have doubts that he could land a hit with a normal arrow or even melee fighting. Without the danger sense, Suzaku is a fast fighter who uses a different style than Ollie is used to. He's not a brawler; Suzaku's usual style is strong, swift, fast spinning kicks, combined with flips and using the opponent's momentum against them. As I showed previously, a single falling kick was strong enough to break the weapons of the Imperial Palace Guards, and knock three of them away.

With the danger sense, if Suzaku doesn't react, his body will. After becoming the Knight of Zero, he was able to use it as a weapon in order to amp up his body. While he fought the Knight of One, he used a risky move to attack straight on, because he knew that the Live command would override whatever technique the Knight of One used to predict his moves.

This may be true however the caliber of marksman needs to enter into the equation as well, has he avoided shots from someone with the pinpoint accuracy that Oliver has?

You mean like individual people? No. Code Geass does not usually feature people using guns in battles.

However, arrows are still significantly slower than the ammunition being fired by Knightmares and the machine gun. Not to mention that the Knightmares were using targeting systems to land their hits. Also, while it was admittedly in a Knightmare, Suzaku was able to dodge the Knight of One, who is the most powerful and most skilled pilot, and a man who can see the future. That's worth noting.

In the interest of full disclosure: that fight with the 3 Knightmares was planned, in the sense that a couple of people knew what was going to happen. The Knightmare pilots were not among them, so they were fighting hard; they were fighting to protect their emperor. The only ones who knew were Lelouch (the emperor), Jeremiah (the guy in white / purple with the orange thing on his face who Suzaku jumps on), Suzaku himself, and C.C. (the girl praying in the church).

@sovereign91001: Are they going to make one for Season 2?

@fetts: I haven't heard anything but I hope so.

@jedixman: @sovereign91001: this over?

@allstarsuperman:

It's on hiatus, but probably over.

Why did you bother to bump this, though?

Talk about old.

dam I remember this almost 3 months old

OLD A$$$ CaV -_- Growing mold & no one ever finished or voted.

@jedixman: I bumped it cause I was interested. But I only like to read in one sitting so I didn't know for sure

Good luck.

Nice reading, just want to say that location pic reminds me of Warehouse 13 for some reason. continue lol