#1 Edited by nickzambuto (13386 posts) - - Show Bio

SOLID SNAKE-

  • Prime
  • Armed with SOCOM, M4, Stun Knife, Stun Grenades, and Cigarettes.
  • Defended by myself

DAREDEVIL-

  • Current 616
  • Armed with Billy Club... horns.
  • Defended by wolverine08

Scenario: Solid Snake is on trial for littering cigarettes all over the George Washington Bridge. He is found guilty, and, blaming his attorney Matt Murdock, attacks with all his might. The court erupts into chaos from the levels of sheer testosterone exuded by the soldier, and in the frenzy Matt switches into costume. They face each other down from opposite ends, and battle as the last remaining pedestrians escape.

#2 Edited by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio

LMAO at that scenario! You fire the first shots @nickzambuto. Make it worth my while :D

#3 Posted by reaverlation (15566 posts) - - Show Bio
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#4 Posted by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by dondave (36455 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol

#6 Posted by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

I`m going to watch out for this one cause its going to be big!

#7 Posted by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio

I`m going to watch out for this one cause its going to be big!

Indeed it will!

#8 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12021 posts) - - Show Bio

all that testosterone just turns a room of civil servants into a damn reenactment of black friday at Walmart.....

#9 Edited by God_Spawn (37686 posts) - - Show Bio

all that testosterone just turns a room of civil servants into a damn reenactment of black friday at Walmart.....

Only Nick could turn this fight into a homoerotic gorno.

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#10 Edited by nickzambuto (13386 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days said:

all that testosterone just turns a room of civil servants into a damn reenactment of black friday at Walmart.....

Only Nick could turn this fight into a homoerotic gorno.

Hey, I'm not afraid to admit my massive mancrush on the guy.

#11 Posted by DeathandGrim (2043 posts) - - Show Bio

Well this got awkward

#12 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12021 posts) - - Show Bio

@ancient_0f_days said:

all that testosterone just turns a room of civil servants into a damn reenactment of black friday at Walmart.....

Only Nick could turn this fight into a homoerotic gorno.

Almost reminds me of Zoolander.

#13 Posted by nickzambuto (13386 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08

The Living Legend...

For those unaware, Solid Snake and his exploits are considered little more than a myth in the black ops world. He is known to many as the hero of Outer Heaven, Zanzibar Land, Shadow Moses, the list goes on. And even long after his death in the futuristic world of Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance, Solid Snake is still remembered as the unbeatable soldier who alone destroyed Metal Gear and saved the world from nuclear annihilation.

Matt Murdock trained and honed his body to become a living weapon, but when Solid Snake was literally created for the sole purpose of becoming the ultimate war machine. He's a man-made human being spawned from the Les Enfants Terribles project designed to imbue him with an abundance of "Soldier Genes". David down to his very DNA is made for combat.

As Liquid Snake explains, he and his brother were designed to be the most powerful soldiers who ever lived, "the weapon that would surpass Metal Gear" as Ocelot put it.

My point in saying all this? Solid Snake is physically superior to Daredevil. His Soldier Genes enhance him beyond the limits of ordinary men, referred to as being "from another world" in MGS1 and described as "physical prodigy" in MGS2. He's actually more in the same vain as characters like Captain America and Black Panther, when it comes to peak humans. I don't think Snake can match Daredevil's acrobatics, but in a combat situation that shouldn't be a problem since David is plenty agile, but we'll get into that later. The only area where they are on the same plateau is in reflexes, since Matt's radar sense gives him a bit of a boost reaction-wise, but Snake can match his radar sense through sheer superhuman perception.

And before you ask, yes Snake does have the feats that match his enhanced status. We'll get to them as they come up, but I want to preface this entire debate with something that's been bugging me. That is, how people on the battle forums just straight up refuse to believe a fight can end any other way than straight up hand to hand battle. Well, I got news for you: a fist is not better than a freaking M4 assault rifle. I don't care how many fancy shmancy martial art moves you have. It has NEVER been Solid Snake's style to just run up and fist fight everybody. We can argue H2H until the cows come home, but nerve strikes won't work on a bullet.

Now I know what you're thinking. "Daredevil dodges bullets all the time! There's no way Snake can tag him!" Well yes Daredevil does enjoy dodging bullets that much is true, but more often than not it's against joe schmo goons and mooks who probably don't even know the correct way to hold a firearm. I would be VERY surprised if you could show me a scan of Daredevil dodging bullets as easily as he does against someone who actually knows what they're doing, like a soldier perhaps. I'd be even more surprised if that soldier was using a fully automatic weapon. But sadly, the only time Matt ever went against someone like that was in his first encounter with Frank Castle where he walked away lamenting about how Punisher could have killed him at any time if he didn't pull his shots. In their second encounter Frank popped the man without fear with a tranq dart almost immediately. (I might be getting the instances reversed though, but that doesn't really matter. In every encounter between the two since then where Punisher was armed, Daredevil needed to sneak up on him to avoid being shot)

Daredevil has also defeated Bullseye with his terrifying arsenal of playing cards and toothpicks, but whenever Lester actually bothers to use a firearm, he almost always shoots Matt.

So then the question becomes, is Solid Snake's marksmanship on the same tier as these two? Well... yeah.

For one thing Snake already has a record of tagging bullet dodgers with his tactical shooting. This is Vamp, the Romanian knife wizard and a legit superhuman speedster.

Here's Vamp running on water and straight up a vertical pillar.

Vamp dances around all of Raiden's attacks, easily making him hypersonic+ with agility to match considering Cyborg Raiden had an entire fight scene with numerous Gekko in the time it took Snake to run a few yards.

To compliment his raw speed feats, Vamp actually IS an expert bullet dodger, having soloed an entire unit of Navy SEALS all armed with assault rifles, but unfortunately Raiden only showed up in time to catch him finishing off the last three. In this clip Vamp is totally imperceptible in motion, blitzing trained soldiers and weaving through a full burst of mach 2 machine gun fire just by spinning around. At 5:10 he leaps through the air and lands right behind Raiden without the guy even realizing it, and when Snake shows up and starts unloading, Vamp vanishes. Most impressively is at 6:40 when Vamp (rather famously) deflects a barrage of assault rifle fire off his knife, then goes on to have an entire conversation with Fortune in the time it takes Snake to pass Raiden a clip. When the gun is loaded, Vamp is already gone.

Vamp doesn't dance around bullets like Daredevil or Spider-Man, he literally sees the projectiles coming at his face and just twists his body around to avoid their path without moving.

Vamp is way faster than Daredevil, I don't think there's any arguing that. And just like Matt, he's a close quarters fighter trying to get up close with Snake, who avoids all his attacks and just unloads on him with gunfire.

Besides Vamp there's also Olga Gurlukovich whom Snake defeated in a gunfight despite being limited by a crappy tranquilizer pistol that needed to be reloaded after every shot.

Snake was dodging and outracing gunfire himself simultaneously, something that I imagine would interfere with his aim.

Olga's not as fast as Vamp but considering Snake's weapon limitation and the fact that he had to contend with her own impressive accuracy at the same time, the feat is still impressive.

It'd be easier just to dodge bullets then deflect them, but Olga needed to defend Raiden, so she blocked this entire hailstorm with just her sword. Note: the suit didn't enhance her, it was just a disguise, she's wasn't actually a cyborg.

Olga is standing right in front of Raiden and then vanishes into nowhere.

She's also quite agile.

That's basically all I can say at this point. If Solid Snake can shoot characters like these, he can shoot Daredevil too.

#14 Edited by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Let's get this party started mate.

My point in saying all this? Solid Snake is physically superior to Daredevil. He's actually more in the same vain as characters like Captain America and Black Panther, when it comes to peak humans.

I haven't seen many of Solid Snake's strength or speed feats, but I don't think Daredevil is too far behind considering that he pulls off physical feats like turning over a limo full of people (A limo on average weighs 3,000 lbs. and with the weights of the two men, and one woman should get to around 3,536 pounds), and blatantly disappears while on a sniper scope, and ends up on the building right next to the assassin trying to kill him right before the guy even notices. All while putting on his costume! I think he has the physicals to compete just fine here.

Limo feat:

Disappearing on a sniper rifle:

Also, even if we go by the idea that Daredevil is physically inferior to Solid Snake, I don't think that it makes much of a difference, becauce Matthew has shown that he can hang with enhanced humans like the ones you mentioned, Captain America and Black Panther.

As seen here, Daredevil recently stalemated Captain America in issue 2 of Mark Waid's Daredevil. Now, in this particular incident. Captain America was completely pissed off at Matt. Bucky was on trial and he had confronted Matt. Steve even came prepped with anti radar chaffs to try disrupt chaffs. Throughout the entire fight, Daredevil just wanted to talk Steve down, and didn't even throw any punches. Yet Matt evaded almost all of Steve's punches, and gained a stalemate. Now, I think everyone knows about Captain America's physical state. The Super Soldier Serum took him to the next state of man when they evolve. He's so physically adept that he's been shown benching 1,100 lbs. running at 60 MPH, dodges bullets after they have been fired and has a brain that sees bullets in slow motion, etc. Despite his impressive physicals, Matt had no problem hang with an enraged Steve.

Here, Matt has a short fight with Black Panther, and even gets the upperhand in a moment in my opinion. Black Panther physically pulls off things like wrestling with and killing 5 ton rhinos, blitzes superhumans like Wolverine and Sabretooth, dodges bullets after they have been fired, etc. Despite all his physical superiority, Matt did himself proud against Panther.

. I don't think Snake can match Daredevil's acrobatics, but in a combat situation that shouldn't be a problem since David is plenty agile, but we'll get into that later.

I wouldn't brush off Solid Snake not being able to match Daredevil's agility so easily. This battle environment you have picked yourself is pretty tigh. For both combatants to oppose their will, they will have to move quickly and efficiently in this environment, and if anyone wants to be reminded just how agile Daredevil is in tight quarters, look no further:

We'll get to them as they come up, but I want to preface this entire debate with something that's been bugging me. That is, how people on the battle forums just straight up refuse to believe a fight can end any other way than straight up hand to hand battle. Well, I got news for you: a fist is not better than a freaking M4 assault rifle. I don't care how many fancy shmancy martial art moves you have. It has NEVER been Solid Snake's style to just run up and fist fight everybody. We can argue H2H until the cows come home, but nerve strikes won't work on a bullet.

You are right, not every battle is going to end by virtue of hand hand to hand combat, but most comic book battles between street levelers do tend to go that route, and there is one particular problem here, Solid Snake may not make it a habit to run up and engage his opponents in hand to hand combat at first fight, but he is going to be forced to do so here. The environment you decided to use for this battle is not the kind that Solid Snake can jump back in the beginning and try set himself up for for his specialty in ranged combat. The starting distance between the two is extremely short, and I think Matt's speed feat against Shotgun shows that he can easily close the distance here. And while Snake's memo isn't hand to hand combat, Matt thrives in it. He's a top 5 hand to hander on Marvel Earth. If people wanted to be reminded of Matt's hand to hand skill (If going up against H2H freaks like Captain America and Black Panther isn't enough), look here at his short fight against Iron Fist, someone who in my opinion, is the most skilled martial artist on Marvel Earth.

As seen here, Matt gave Danny such a hard fight, he was forced to pull out his chi amped punch. Granted, Danny was trying to copy Matt's style during the fight and was having some difficulty doing it, but Matt still giving him such a hard is a testament to his skill.

And while nerve strikes won't work on a bullet, I am pretty sure blows that can paralyze men are going to leave marks on Solid Snake.

Now I know what you're thinking. "Daredevil dodges bullets all the time! There's no way Snake can tag him!" Well yes Daredevil does enjoy dodging bullets that much is true, but more often than not it's against joe schmo goons and mooks who probably don't even know the correct way to hold a firearm.

Matt really doesn't just dodge bullets, he straight up bats them away while timing them.

I also wouldn't say the quality of the marksmen Matt dodges is suspect. I'm pretty sure everybody knows how Bullseye is. The man kills people with toothpicks from yards away. He's an accuracy freak. You want to see how successful he is with using guns against Matt?

I also really don't think the quality of the marksmen really effects Daredevil's bullet dodging considering how he dodges them. He isn't an aim dodger like many street levelers who dodge bullets. He straight up dodges them after they have been fired, and bats them away. Just look at how Matt describes what allows him to dodge said bullets during the very beginning of his career in Frank Miller's Man Without Fear mini series.

"Feel the attack before it comes."

Solid Snake can be as accurate as he wants, but he's going to be fighting an uphill battle to actually tag Matt when he's feeling him fire at him before it even comes.

In every encounter between the two since then where Punisher was armed, Daredevil needed to sneak up on him to avoid being shot)

Not true. Just look at these Punisher vs Daredevil encounters:

Frank even set a trap for Daredevil in this encounter, and Matt still easily dodged his gunfire.

In this encounter, Matt approached Frank up close and personal and still evaded his gunfire rather easily.

Daredevil has also defeated Bullseye with his terrifying arsenal of playing cards and toothpicks, but whenever Lester actually bothers to use a firearm, he almost always shoots Matt.

Also untrue. The one time Bullseye every managed to tag Mattt with a gun, he had a broken arm, and he still went on to beat him. Lester's history of tagging Matt with firearms is abysmal.

I would be VERY surprised if you could show me a scan of Daredevil dodging bullets as easily as he does against someone who actually knows what they're doing, like a soldier perhaps.

I already showed, Daredevil dodging gunfire from Bullseye, someone who is arguably the best marksman in Marvel. I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing with a gun. But if you want to see Daredevil dodging bullets from a professional and even injured, just look at Daredevil vol 2 #27. Matt had just taken two explosions from the Nitro, the living bomb that had tried to assassinate him. The attack left Matt with a concussion, broken ribs, and senses attacking in overdrive. He went on to capture Nitro, and as he was interrogating him out on the street, a police officer interrupted him, and when Matt didn't cooperate, shot at him. The significance of this instance?I I already told you about all the injuries Matt had just received that were impending him physically, but at the moment he got shot at, his radar sense had in his own words, "crapped out." This was just Matt and his reflexes doing the job, and what did he do? Take a look for yourself:

He dodged it like a boss while not even looking. Now, I know you are probably going to say cops aren't special, but you just don't get out there patrolling the streets for nothing. Matt can dodge bullets from all ilks of marksmen.

If Solid Snake can shoot characters like these, he can shoot Daredevil too.

Not necessarily. The men you showed Solid Snake tagging weren't blessed with Daredevil's abilities. They don't have Radar Senses that let them feel the gun before it even fires. They don't have senses so acute that they can predict attacks by feeling their opponents muscles tensing. Due to Daredevil's combination of Radar Sense, senses, superhuman agility in close quarters, and raw reflexes, Solid Snake is going to have hell tagging Daredevil, and that's if Matt doesn't close the distance like his speed should allow him to, and hold a hand to hand fight in which he'd have an advantage in.

Looking forward to your counter mate.

#15 Posted by reaverlation (15566 posts) - - Show Bio

Good openings for both of y'all

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#16 Posted by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio
#17 Edited by nickzambuto (13386 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08

The limo feat is definitely super impressive, but 70% of the lifting was done by Daredevil's legs in that scene. Matt Murdock was of course trained as an acrobat, meaning his lower body is going to be far, far more powerful than the rest of him. I'm sure that's exactly what was going through the author's head when he wrote this scene. I'm not saying the feat unimpressive, far from it, but Snake actually has it beat with firing a Rail Gun with his bare hands.

He wields the weapon as if it were a rifle with absolutely no strain. The weapon is stated to pack recoil equivalent to a tank turret, which Old Snake effectively absorbs straight into his shoulder. To put that into perspective, the only people besides him who could handle the gun were Crying Wolf and Fortune, the former being the strongest member of the entire Beauty and the Beast Unit and capable of flipping over a bulldozer, and the latter having a superpower (later revealed to be the result of some advanced tech) that literally revolved around her ability to survive anything.

So that's at least a few tons of force that David can handle in his old age. I'm sure that the soldier could replicate Matt's limo flipping feat; heck he actually already did by lifting up a jeep that he and Meryl were trapped under after escaping Shadow Moses, but that was offscreen so I won't put much weight on it.

Daredevil's kicks are going to be devastating, there's no doubt about that (just ask Gorgon), but punching-wise I don't think he can do very much damage to Snake.

Ocelot Punch Snake 1

Ocelot Punch Snake 2

In his fight with Liquid Ocelot, Snake was momentarily floored and Ocelot followed up by hammering him directly in the face over and over again for nearly 30 seconds straight. That same punch, left a massive dent in solid steel, yet Ocelot can't even draw a drop of blood from Snake's face after nearly two dozen punches (I actually had to cut the scene off by several seconds because I can only make 10 second gifs. Believe it or not there's more punches). And before you ask, yes, after this Snake literally got up and continued fighting until sunset.

Two dozen punches to the face is more hits than a fight usually has, so if Ocelot could get no effect from that, Daredevil won't be able to put Snake down before the battle ends (with Snake of course as the victor).

So that's strength and durability. But Daredevil's advantage has always been his speed, and in sheer movement he is pretty ridiculous, as that sniper scene shows. But what's always been Solid Snake's greatest asset is his reflexes. In that, Daredevil has no advantage.

Both of these dudes have more than enough bullet timing feats. What I'd like to see Daredevil dodge is a hypersonic Rail Gun shell that can potentially be as fast as mach 20 if we go by real life Rail Guns. Yes this is the same one that Snake later used himself. And as if I need to say it, your reflexes at the age of 70 aren't going to be what they were in your prime.

In his prime, Solid Snake was able to have a prolonged battle against Fortune wielding the same Rail Gun in an enclosed space with no cover, without getting shot for at least a few hours. Unfortunately it happened off-screen, but we can connect the dots right?

Clearly Daredevil's bullet-deflection feats are impressive, but deflecting gunfire is actually something of a series staple in Metal Gear that pretty much every character has done at one point or another. Solid Snake himself implied that he could do it too with the H/F Blade, but doesn't like using swords so he never got the chance. He did however absolutely humiliate Raiden who 5 seconds later started deflecting machine gun fire, so if bullet deflection is any indication on Snake's speed vs Daredevil's, it's clear who's superior.

Snake has some pretty great stats. But what help are they if Daredevil is already used to fighting opponents of a similar level? Oh woe is me! Oh helpless Snake!

No, not really. While I won't say Daredevil's showings against Cap and Panther are unimpressive per say, they aren't exactly mind blowing considering the context behind them.

As seen here, Daredevil recently stalemated Captain America in issue 2 of Mark Waid's Daredevil.

Stalemated a raging-out-of-his-mind Captain America who was blatantly stated to be using the "juggernaut approach" and foregoing martial arts. Daredevil himself didn't show much martial arts either, since he just ran away the whole time and dodged. If we take anything from that feat, it's the impressive reflexes Matt showed.

Here, Matt has a short fight with Black Panther, and even gets the upperhand in a moment in my opinion.

Got the upperhand... on a hesitant Black Panther who didn't want to fight, and was only trying to keep Daredevil from reaching Wheeler.

Overall, there's a big different between "hanging with" foes with superior stats, and "defeating" foes with superior stats, especially when said foes weren't fighting at their best anyway. Not saying Daredevil couldn't challenge or even outright defeat Steve or T'Challa, because IMO he could, just... never has.

I wouldn't brush off Solid Snake not being able to match Daredevil's agility so easily. This battle environment you have picked yourself is tight.

Well I tried to pick an even environment, I don't really have a counter to your claims since it's just our opinions, but I see the courtroom as being fairly spacious to be honest. And it's not as if Snake is a stiff. He's without a doubt the most fluid of all four Snakes, much more than Big Boss, who mind you was shown to be pretty light on his feet during his battle against Null.

Solid Snake can be pretty agile.

Pulls off a few aerial maneuvers while bungee jumping onto the Discovery, and kicks off the Tankers wall. Also doubles as a durability feat since he landed hard enough to destroy the stealth camo on impact (he later confirms that the fall is what made it short out) yet remains pretty much just fine.

Rather acrobatically avoids a tank shell.

Rappels down the side of a tower using an old rope while avoiding steam pipes which takes a lot of skill, and as if that isn't difficult enough, while dodging gunfire from an ace pilot simultaneously. (The gameplay doesn't really do it justice =P)

So that's all well and good. I definitely think David could replicate the maneuver Matt pulled in that scan if he had to. But how does all this apply to a combat situation? Well it just so happens that, as a classic example of a Blood Knight, Solid Snake's skills and abilities, agility included, can only truly shine right in the middle of a fight when his blood really starts pumping.

Displayed during his original fight with the Cyborg Ninja where Snake deftly blocks, counters, and dodges every single mach 2+ sword strike from the samurai.

Gray Fox is something of an expert at deflecting bullets, even mach 2 automatic assault rifle fire from multiple shooters simultaneously, meaning his sword slashes are well beyond the speed of sound. Snake dodged them all. So like I said before, bullet timing feats and things like that are great, but in a fight, Solid Snake has proven that he can avoid multiple strikes as fast as mach 2. So Daredevil's combat speed had better be quite a sight to see! Because right now, he's at a severe disadvantage considering he'll need to deal MORE damage to get past the soldier's durability, but will land LESS hits.

Since I'm talking about Franky so much already I might as well bring up the fact that Solid Snake has defeated him in H2H combat, a true testament to his CQC skill considering the dude is a bullet-speed 100 tonner with 50 years of combat experience and extensive combat training on his side. Some people say Frank held back his strength, but there's actually no real proof of that claim. Quite the opposite in fact, Naomi blatantly stated that Gray Fox probably didn't even remember who Snake was at that point, and everything he did was based off of simple instincts. He only realized what was actually happening at the very end of the game.

I don't think Daredevil has ever beaten a 100 tonner before through sheer fighting skill, and I'm almost positive he didn't beat a 100 tonner who was faster than him. Snake pretty much had every disadvantage possible all stacked up against him in this fight, but still won in the end. He's never shown any fancy shmancy nerve strike knowledge before like Daredevil has, but he doesn't need to. The man is constantly referred to as a true born, natural warrior, with a borderline inhuman instinct for combat and the ability to adapt to almost any situation on the fly, to the extent that Colonel Campbell has actually dubbed him as "the man who makes the impossible, possible." His raw, brute strength was enough to punch through Gray Fox's steel/CNT mesh Cyborg Ninja exoskeleton and damage his body inside. Can you imagine the pain Daredevil is going to be feeling after a blow like that connects?

Solid Snake may not make it a habit to run up and engage his opponents in hand to hand combat at first fight, but he is going to be forced to do so here. The environment you decided to use for this battle is not the kind that Solid Snake can jump back in the beginning and try set himself up for for his specialty in ranged combat. The starting distance between the two is extremely short,

Man, it's just so much fun talking about Snake's stats and H2H that I completely forgot... the fight won't even come down to that! Granted, Daredevil's bullet dodging feats are some of the best around, but then again... so are Vamp's. Matt's radar sense obviously grants him a distinct edge when it comes to avoiding gunfire that most other characters don't have, but keep in mind, Vamp could read muscle movements ala Cassandra Cain, and even told Raiden that determining the direction a gun is aimed at is easy for him because of it. Snake still tagged him. Daredevil can't actually outrace bullets, just outmaneuver them. Which is easy enough against gangsters with no training, but against an experienced, and highly tactical marksman like Solid Snake, all it takes is a few well placed shots where Matt is predicted to move, to effectively trap him where there's no room to dodge.

I actually forgot to post this scene where David manages to blast Solidus Snake with a grenade launcher.

Solidus was already a peak human originally, but his exoskeleton beefs him up to Cyborg Ninja levels.

So that's three speedsters Solid Snake has shot. As a matter of fact, there really isn't any particular target that Snake actually failed to hit. The only character who could legitimately defeat his marksmanship with pure speed was Gray Fox, and that's why Snake had to beat his ass H2H instead.

So basically, my point is that Snake has already tagged multiple characters much faster than Daredevil via tactical shooting, one of which knew where his bullets would land before the trigger was pulled, so while Matt's radar sense aiding him in reacting appropriately will definitely help a lot, he really can't avoid the bullets for long.

#18 Edited by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Nice, going to be kind of busy this week, will probably be able to get to this by Friday.

#22 Edited by nickzambuto (13386 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Nice, going to be kind of busy this week, will probably be able to get to this by Friday.

Just reminding you.

#23 Posted by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@nickzambuto: Nice, going to be kind of busy this week, will probably be able to get to this by Friday.

Just reminding you.

It's good. I'll have a response up by tonight.

#24 Posted by nickzambuto (13386 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@wolverine08 said:

@nickzambuto: Nice, going to be kind of busy this week, will probably be able to get to this by Friday.

Just reminding you.

It's good. I'll have a response up by tonight.

WOW that was a fast response. Like, I hit send, then I clicked back to the main page, and I already had a notification. You're on the ball =P

#25 Posted by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@nickzambuto said:

@wolverine08 said:

@nickzambuto: Nice, going to be kind of busy this week, will probably be able to get to this by Friday.

Just reminding you.

It's good. I'll have a response up by tonight.

WOW that was a fast response. Like, I hit send, then I clicked back to the main page, and I already had a notification. You're on the ball =P

Indeed I am :D

#26 Edited by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

The limo feat is definitely super impressive, but 70% of the lifting was done by Daredevil's legs in that scene. Matt Murdock was of course trained as an acrobat, meaning his lower body is going to be far, far more powerful than the rest of him. I'm sure that's exactly what was going through the author's head when he wrote this scene. I'm not saying the feat unimpressive, far from it, but Snake actually has it beat with firing a Rail Gun with his bare hands.

I don't think that was what was going through the author's head at that particular. Of course Daredevil's legs were going to play something of a role with the position he is in, but his arms were there playing their part as well. For some of Matt's other strength feats, he's managed to wield a 450 lb. weight bar like it was a bo staff.

I am just pointing out that Daredevil has the means to compete strength wise with Solid Snake.

Daredevil's kicks are going to be devastating, there's no doubt about that (just ask Gorgon), but punching-wise I don't think he can do very much damage to Snake.

I think Matt's respective strength feats show that he can put the pain on Solid Snake Yes, I think Snake's enhanced durability will help him in the beginning of the fight, but with Daredevil sporting the strength to turn over limos and use 450 lbs. weight bars like they are bo staffs, he can injure Solid Snake a bit with his blows. Add in those devastating kicks that you mentioned will start building cumulative damage on Solid Snake as the battle rages on.

Stalemated a raging-out-of-his-mind Captain America who was blatantly stated to be using the "juggernaut approach" and foregoing martial arts.

Yeah, this is a false interpretation of the events that happened during that fight. Yes, Captain America was indeed using a more aggressive, juggernaut like approach against Daredevil in that particular fight, but it never said anything about him foregoing his top tier martial prowess while using that method, and it was never implied at all that his fighting ability was impaired due to the unique approach to that fight. Frankly, Steve wasn't doing anything much different than what he usually does in fights. Bucky has even noted that Steve is a naturally aggressive fight and is more successful in that charging in method than him due to his superior physical capabilities.

"Charging right in.. Steve was always better at that."

All that really happened in that fight was that Steve amped up his already aggressive fighting style due to being angry, and Matt was still able to keep with him blow for blow. You are allowed to keep your view on that fight, but the facts of the matter really don't support that position.

Daredevil himself didn't show much martial arts either, since he just ran away the whole time and dodged. If we take anything from that feat, it's the impressive reflexes Matt showed.

Martial skill just isn't about punching you know. Evading and maneuvering with your opponent is apart of skill as well. Even then, you are right. Matt did show extremely impressive reflexes in that fight, and to top it off, that guy is a bit of a better hand to hand combatant than Snake and his memo is hand to hand combat. He's also repping physical stats that are on par with, or even better than Solid Snake's and Matt was able to avoid a large majority of his strikes. Shows what he can do in a hand to hand fight with Solid Snake.

Got the upperhand... on a hesitant Black Panther who didn't want to fight, and was only trying to keep Daredevil from reaching Wheeler.

Black Panther wasn't really hesitant at all. He simply didn't want Daredevil to reach Daredevil. If anything, he would have tried his best to put Matt down hard and fast so that he did not have to prolong the confrontation. Matt simply got the upperhand on him on that occasion.

Well I tried to pick an even environment, I don't really have a counter to your claims since it's just our opinions, but I see the courtroom as being fairly spacious to be honest. And it's not as if Snake is a stiff. He's without a doubt the most fluid of all four Snakes, much more than Big Boss, who mind you was shown to be pretty light on his feet during his battle against Null.

Solid Snake can be pretty agile.

I just think that looking at this environment, it is a bit less spacious than what most street levelers trade blows in, and to close distance, and establish your will you are going to need to be pretty fluid. I already showed Matt's top tier agility, but I would just like to remind the audience that Matt regularly pulls off stuff like this agility wise:

Matt also holds the advantage here in that his agility is a consistent factor in his battles. He's essentially based most if his fighting style around being able to avoid and great use of agility, and is always trying to use that agility to gain an edge in battles.

Daredevil can't actually outrace bullets, just outmaneuver them. Which is easy enough against gangsters with no training, but against an experienced, and highly tactical marksman like Solid Snake, all it takes is a few well placed shots where Matt is predicted to move, to effectively trap him where there's no room to dodge.

Frankly, I really don't know why a good part of your argument around Solid Snake's ability to tag Daredevil with his shots is based around the idea that Daredevil is only physically apt enough to dodge the shots of marksmen who are just regular punks when well, that is clearly not the case. Punisher is one of the most tactical men in Marvel land among the street level roost. It's how he deals with being physically inferior and lacking in the raw skill most street levelers possess. Heck, he's so tactical he's been able to use tactical shooting in a manner similar to that Solid Snake did to do something most men have not and most likely will not accomplish in their lifetimes, tag Spider-Man with a gunshot. You know, the guy who dodges 4,000 FPS bullets after they have been fired, and was fast enough at that particular point in his life that he was easily dodging bullets after they were fired and covering two miles in five second to go along with that Spider-Man. Despite Punisher's insane tactical ability and sharpshooting skills, Daredevil has been able to dodge his point blank gunfire numerous times in random encounters. Bullseye himself is arguably the best marksmen in Marvel/DC along with the likes of Deadshot sporting an almost supernatural aim. He's shown insane accuracy with guns that let him score trick shots using them with effortlessly, score six headshots on a practice shots in one particular spot on a bullseye mark and place another dead on shot without looking, kill someone with one shot with a rifle from 2 miles away with nonchalant ease, and despite this almost preternatural aim, every time Lester has brought out the guns against Matt, he's missed besides the time Matt had a broken arm. Again with Bullseye, he's good enough to throw what I count as 17 stars at Spider-Man all at once

Yet, Matt has been able to deflect his stars while having a broken arm!

Matt has made a career out of dodging quality marksmen.

so while Matt's radar sense aiding him in reacting appropriately will definitely help a lot, he really can't avoid the bullets for long.

The thing is, Daredevil does not have to dodge bullets for long. This battle isn't starting off with Solid Snake perched off in good position to shot and Daredevil having to dodge hoards bullets while locating him, he is literally starting looking right at Solid Snake and has an extremely short distance to cover. He has proven that he can cover that distance with doing things like disappearing in plain view on a sniper scope and appearing right beside the assassin, dodging lasers faster than his thought processing waves, dodging a point blank sniper bullet, etc. that he has the speed to close the distance, and along with that top tier agility and radar sense, he can dodge a few bullets from Snake before he gets in close and gets his H2H battle in which he'd hold an advantage due to his agile fighting style and superior skill.

I'd also argue Daredevil has another advantage in close combat, his billy club. He's pretty good at throwing that thing. He's even managed to tag Iron Fist with that thing and Danny has reflex feats like this:

He's also a good enough marksmen with it to send it down the barrel of Punisher's gun.

And he throws it hard enough to send it what through what appears to be a concrete pillar.

Hitting Solid Snake with the billy club could send him off track for a quick second and give Matt an advantage in a close quarters fight.

#27 Posted by Jokergeist (4935 posts) - - Show Bio

ACHOO~!!

#28 Edited by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Made some edits to my post, and do you want to go to voting, or do you want us to make a quick summary of why we thinks our characters should win?

#29 Posted by nickzambuto (13386 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Made some edits to my post, and do you want to go to voting, or do you want us to make a quick summary of why we thinks our characters should win?

You're finished already? I was thinking this would be a bit longer than 2 or 3 posts each, but if you want to call it quits I understand. Just let me counter your post properly, and then you can reply one more time if you want.

#30 Edited by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@nickzambuto: Made some edits to my post, and do you want to go to voting, or do you want us to make a quick summary of why we thinks our characters should win?

You're finished already? I was thinking this would be a bit longer than 2 or 3 posts each, but if you want to call it quits I understand. Just let me counter your post properly, and then you can reply one more time if you want.

Sure.

#31 Posted by nickzambuto (13386 posts) - - Show Bio

Get ready for round 3, bub ;)

First let me start off by addressing your arguments.

In regards to the limo flip, while yes Matt's arms were doing their fair share of lifting, the feat was still a joint effort between his entire body, arms, legs, and back, so it's not a good indication of striking power. And all he did was flip it over, so it's not like he was really supporting the full 3,000 lb+ weight of it.

I feel like people are going to think I'm lowballing the feat to hell, but believe me I'm not. It's one of Daredevil's greatest showings and it definitely proves without a doubt that he is peak human. However, the character still sacrificed power for speed for the most part, and consistently lags behind other characters like Captain America in raw strength. This is a consistent thing with Daredevil's character, there have been a bunch of instances in the past where he's fought robots or some other thing that he couldn't injure by conventional means and had to resort to other tactics (that's why he has so many pressure point showings). Nuke is a classic example, the guy got KOd by an angry Steve Rogers but Matt Murdock hurt his hand touching him. And again I'm really not lowballing, because I freely admit that Nuke is SUPER powerful, and failing to hurt him is really not a mark against Daredevil. However, that said, what did Solid Snake do against a character of similar ability?

He beat him to the point of complete exhaustion.

Liquid Snake was genetically created to be an unstoppable war machine with dominant soldier genes. Throughout the entire game, nothing was ever shown capable of injuring him. He was eating Stinger Missiles like they were nothing, and came out of Metal Gear REX's explosion completely unscathed despite sitting inside it's cockpit. Captain America can jump from helicopters when they're at low altitudes, but Liquid Snake survived his helicopter freefalling to the ground from above the communications tower (a good 500 feet in the air) which then exploded into a fireball so massive, it could be seen rising above said tower's roof. And he wasn't hurt. Liquid can even take a gatling gun unloading into his chest and continue walking. All that said, Snake's blows were the only things capable of fazing him (and the FOXDIE virus which effectively forced all his heart cells to commit suicide... but that's not exactly a low showing)

Now tell me, can Daredevil come anywhere close to replicating any of those feats for Liquid? And Solid Snake beat Liquid in under 3 minutes (that's how long they had before the nuclear bomb Liquid planted detonated). So it's not like that was a drawn out fight where Snake's damage accumulated, no, his punches are just, well, stronger than any of the half-dozen Stinger Missiles Liquid tanked.

This striking power is consistent. Besides Liquid, Solid Snake could also physically beat Frank Jaeger through his cyborg exoskeleton to the point where the guy was on his knees gasping for breath (as I showed above). This is the same exoskeleton that caught Metal Gear REX's kick, and withstood being stomped on by it afterwards.

So again, I don't see Daredevil withstanding more than a handful of hits that strong. Old Snake's punch actually created a small shockwave when it collided with Ocelot's during MGS4, so very very consistent.

In terms of damage output, Snake is just at an absolutely massive advantage, not only because of his strength, but his durability. Whereas Matt Murdock will struggle to maintain consciousness after a couple minutes of taking hits from this super soldier, Snake will go virtually unfazed by the vigilante's strikes. I mean flipping a 3,000 pound limo is one thing, but Gray Fox overpowering REX's 505 ton leg with one arm is another thing entirely. And how does Snake react to a punch from someone like that?

He goes unfazed and immediately counterattacks.

And you're saying Daredevil can knock this guy out? Even more impressive is when Snake survived getting launched by Metal Gear RAY, which was far more powerful than REX.

RAY weighed just as much as REX, maybe a little bit more, but it's legs were powerful enough to propel it tens of meters through the air and do friggin backflips. Snake was knocked out for a couple minutes, but getting rocketed into a reinforced wall by legs that powerful, I'd say it's a miracle he wasn't reduced to a smear.

The best thing about Snake's durability is, unlike characters like Deathstroke and Ultimate Captain America, who tank hits from 100+ tonners and then get KOd by peak humans in the next issue, Solid Snake's durability remains consistent in his fights against street levelers. He quickly recovered from Vamp slamming him into a wall and slicing open his arm, and I already showed you a clip where Liquid Snake's best hits failed. Both were above peak human. But perhaps most impressively, was in his fight with Ocelot.

The whole fight is pretty much Snake's ultimate martial arts showing (more on that later) but the most notable instance is when Ocelot has Snake on the ground and just wails at his face over and over nearly two dozen times. Now, Ocelot as a teenager heaved around a motorcycle and at the age of 60-something could make vertical leaps 40+ feet in the air. Striking wise, that same punch he delivers to Snake left a massive dent in solid steel in this same fight, meaning Snake's nose>steel. Honestly I think that makes sense given his showings against 100 tonners and giant robots.

Daredevil doesn't have striking feats anywhere close to Ocelot leaving an imprint in Outer Haven's hull. If his hits couldn't draw a drop of blood, you expect Daredevil to knock Snake completely out cold? Not likely. And just FTR yes, that assault did not injure Snake very much since they continued this fight until sunset. If anything he was tired on account of being like, 80, and just having run an inhuman endurance gauntlet known as the entire freaking game.

So to summarize:

  1. Solid Snake beats up Cyborgs, 100 tonners, and his genetically super brother>>>peak human Daredevil.
  2. Solid Snake takes hits from Cyborgs, 100 tonners, and his genetically superior brother>>>peak human Daredevil.

I am just pointing out that Daredevil has the means to compete strength wise with Solid Snake.

Honestly, I simply disagree :(

Add in those devastating kicks that you mentioned will start building cumulative damage on Solid Snake as the battle rages on.

If this were a "Can Daredevil knock out a paralyzed Solid Snake?" debate then I'd agree with you. However, you forget to factor in the fact that Matt will be taking damage at the same time, and given the feats we've both provided provided, it should be clear who drops first.

I'd also argue Daredevil has another advantage in close combat, his billy club. He's pretty good at throwing that thing.

Good thing Snake is a casual bullet timer and can dodge gunshots after they've been fired, even when caught completely by surprise by a ballistic knife.

Olga even says no one has ever dodged that shot before.

He's even managed to tag Iron Fist with that thing and Danny has reflex feats like this:

He's also a good enough marksmen with it to send it down the barrel of Punisher's gun.

Daredevil tagged Iron Fist by catching him off guard with a ricochet. Solid Snake, as fate would have it, happens to be an expert at dodging ricochets, as Revolver Ocelot would attest.

The Russian catches Snake off guard, but the soldier's reflexes are so highly tuned that the sound of Ocelot's gun cocking is the only warning that he needs. The two then have a rather lengthy close-quarters gun fight where Snake dodges every single shot fired. Keep in mind, Ocelot is pretty much the master of ricochet. Nastasha Romanenko, a military analyst, described him as wielding his gun with "diabolical powers". He can easily make double or even triple rebounds with perfect accuracy, and in fact, during each of his boss fights throughout the series, the players usually very competent support team is left at a loss for words.

That's some mad skill right there, he didn't even touch Raiden's hand.

So Snake can probably dodge Daredevil's billy club, throwing it might actually be a bad move for the vigilante because than his only offensive hope will be gone.

And he throws it hard enough to send it what through what appears to be a concrete pillar.

Snake did that with his bare hands, but instead of piercing and cracking the concrete, he tore down the whole wall.

Yes, this is still canon. Daredevil gonna get messed up.

While on the topic I might as well go over speed. Now, I feel like people are quick to give Daredevil an edge in this area, but let me highlight Snake's abilities. I actually don't think there's a single feat reflexive Matt Murdock has performed that the legendary soldier could not replicate, whereas there are several Daredevil could not. Movement and agility wise Daredevil is superior, but Solid Snake's snap reaction time and combat speed is hard to top. He consistently outpaces various Cyborg Ninja and has even matched Vamp move for move. Snake is beyond casual bullet timer status. Here's him reacting fast enough to dodge an entire hailstorm of fire from gunship.

Keep in mind, an attack helicopter would generally be carrying extremely high-caliber weaponry, meaning that machine gun was firing far faster than any normal weapon. It's not exactly pistol or rifle rounds.

That would be impressive against cannon fodder, but like Liquid mentions in the scans, he is actually an extremely skilled pilot! It's true that he shot down two F-16 Fighter Planes all by himself with that chopper. What he neglected to mention was that it happened during a snowstorm.

Insane.

Oh yeah and Snake also tanks a couple of missiles and blasts the chopper with a rocket during a midair freefall but that's not impressive or anything... not compared to this speed at least.

Even as Old Snake, the MGS4 novelization implies that David's reflexes are still just as if not sharper than Cyborg Raiden's. When Vamp throws a volley of knives, the soldier was capable of barrel rolling out the way, whereas Raiden deadpanned that the same knives moved too fast for him and he had to tank them.

I give you that Daredevil's projectile deflection feats are super impressive, but they have a lot to do with precision and radar sense more than raw reflexes. If it's any consolation, deflecting bullets is pretty standard in Metal Gear, and during MGS2, Snake implied that he could do it himself except he doesn't "have a thing for blades." Something that I can never see Daredevil replicating, is Snake's famous Rail Gun dodge, which I already went over. Overall there isn't much separating these two reflexively. I mean Daredevil dodges projectiles from Bullseye and sometimes bullets, Snake dodges close ranged ricochet shots from Revolver Ocelot. Daredevil deflects bullets, Snake beats up characters who can do that and dodges Rail Guns. Personally I actually think Snake might be superior. Matt just has radar sense.

Yeah, this is a false interpretation of the events that happened during that fight. Yes, Captain America was indeed using a more aggressive, juggernaut like approach against Daredevil in that particular fight, but it never said anything about him foregoing his top tier martial prowess while using that method, and it was never implied at all that his fighting ability was impaired due to the unique approach to that fight.

The implication seems obvious to me, Cap acted like a complete brute as Daredevil wondered why he was acting like a complete brute. Just read his monologue. He even says that Cap has never been this hard nosed - as in Cap was fighting in a fashion that he never had before.

Frankly, Steve wasn't doing anything much different than what he usually does in fights. Bucky has even noted that Steve is a naturally aggressive fight and is more successful in that charging in method than him due to his superior physical capabilities.

That's kinda out of context, I don't think that's what Bucky meant. He's not saying Steve was aggressive, just that he's better at "charging right in" whereas Bucky might have set up a sniping position or used stealth or relied on a firearm, etc.

Whatever, it doesn't matter. Honestly I myself side with Daredevil over Cap 100% so I shouldn't argue this. Your next claim is FAR more audacious.

Captain America is a bit of a better hand to hand combatant than Snake and his memo is hand to hand combat. He's also repping physical stats that are on par with, or even better than Solid Snake's

Pray tell, what exactly makes you so absolutely sure of that? Forgive me, but the way you word it makes it sound like you're just stating a common fact. Is it Snake's far more detailed and expanded history of training and mentoring by characters with actual feats and accomplishments of their own like Frank Jaeger, Kazuhira Miller, and Big Boss himself that makes you think Steve Rogers is more skilled? Is it the fact that his entire career revolves around taking on groups of metahumans alone, all of which almost always have a massive stat advantage over him in addition to incredible skill, yet he always prevails anyway? Or perhaps the fact that he was literally genetically created with a superhuman instinct for combat which, in conjunction with his 180 supergenius military IQ, causes him to constantly adapt making him effectively undefeatable in the series? Solid Snake has been a member of almost every single major military organization in the United States, including making Green Beret at the age of 14, not to mention the plethora of secret black ops agencies he's been a part of the most notable of which being the legendary FOXHOUND, the members of which are considered to be modern day ninja. By comparison, Steve Rogers has no stated training, almost all of his feats are simply stalemating other top tier martial artists (never beating), and he almost always has a stat advantage against them anyway, so that's not much of a testament to his skill.

...But I digress. Everything said, Solid Snake's fighting style is almost a mirror image of Captain America's, simply to a higher level. Whereas Daredevil is more of an oriental, traditional martial arts master, Snake (and Cap) are militaristic, tactical fighters. The Comic Vine misconception is that one is superior to the other. That's false. A Navy SEAL or Marine would utterly destroy a 15th century Japanese ninja. These fancy shmancy kung-fu moves don't mean anything to the kill techniques taught to a soldier.

And before you get started on all that silly technical knowledge stuff, let me say (and I doubt anybody's going to believe this) PRESSURE POINTS AREN'T THAT AMAZING. They don't show ANY advanced combat techniques knowledge, all they show is that character X can use pressure points. Solid Snake is the CQC master, he has an encyclopedic knowledge of holds, throws, and grapples the more advanced of which are even effective against characters with super strength and/or speed. THAT is technical knowledge, or perhaps I should phrase that as, knowledge on techniques. He doesn't know where any nerve clusters or anything like that are, but he knows how to attack the body's weak points like the heart and other organs, throat, neck, eyes, groin, and other discombobulating moves. Add to that, CQC, or Close Quarters Combat, is a system of attacks specifically designed to incorporate gunplay into H2H combat. So Snake isn't just a guy who can punch you in the face, he can punch you in the face while shooting you in the stomach.

Snake displays high-proficiency in the techniques by stomping Johnny Sasaki (who for all her humor is actually a damn beast) and casually downing a group of Paradise Lost Army operatives.

So while those scans against Punisher are impressive, Daredevil actually had the drop on Frank in each of them, and only had to travel a few yards to reach him, so that's worth considering. If shooting two bullet timers, a muscle reader, and hitting a chopper with a missile while midfreefall isn't enough for you, Snake can still shoot Daredevil in CQC. Punisher managed to do it.

And I mean, that is Snake's thing.

But enough about that. Martial arts-wise, I've already posted clips of Snake:

  1. Defeating the Cyborg Ninja Frank Jaeger
  2. Defeating Ocelot
  3. Stomping Raiden
  4. Stomping soldiers
  5. Beating Liquid Snake

On the surface, Gray Fox seems like his greatest victory. The man could deflect gunfire as a teenager, and nearly 50 years later with that culmination of experience, plus cyborg enhancements, he could very well have been hypersonic (it wouldn't surprise me with the ease he treats mach 2 projectiles). Not to mention he was a 500 tonner. Now all that's impressive, but what really tops things off is that Frank Jaeger was one of the most feared and renowned fighters on the planet, being the only FOXHOUND agent in the organization's history to ever earn the codename Fox (it's highest honor) as well as being a former child soldier who could actually kill dozens of armed soldiers simultaneously with a single knife, before hitting puberty. As part of the Perfect Soldier Project, Frank's mind was kept constantly filtered and his memories wiped, so that the only thing taking up space in his brain was combat techniques. That's incredible. Snake kicked his ass.

However, lorewise, beating Liquid and Ocelot are both actually more impressive. Ocelot of course being a total super genius, naturally adept fighter and the son of The Boss. At the age of 18, he mastered CQC to the point where he could stalemate the style's creator, after merely watching him perform a few techniques. As for Liquid, he's arguably even better than Ocelot and had all the superior soldier genes, not to mention a severe stat advantage on an exhausted and battle wounded Snake.

The next big guy is Vamp. He's actually pretty similar to Daredevil, just turned up to 11. Exceptionally quick and agile, high precision, masterful martial artist, can predict opponent's moves, etc. He has all the traits, just to a higher level. I already showed him fighting on even ground with Cyborg Raiden. Now, Vamp is a little bit above peak human, but Raiden was a 1,000+ tonner with speed to match. I won't even get into his skill. Simply being capable of fighting on even ground, with a character like that, is ridiculous. But wait, there's more! You want technical knowledge?! Well get this... VAMP ACTUALLY KNOWS PRESSURE POINTS! IT'S AMAZING ISN'T IT? HE MUST BE SO SKILLED!

No. Because whereas Vamp actually has used a nerve strike before, such "technical knowledge" pales in comparison to the other techniques Vamp knows. Muscle reading, and shadow binding are two abilities that completely blow any amount of pressure point usage absolutely out of the water. They show a level of advancement and understanding that very few comic book characters can match.

Muscle reading is self explanatory. Shadow binding I don't have the clip for, but it's basically a form of hypnosis where Vamp's movements and the precise light reflected off his blade tricks the victim into being paralyzed in place when his knife strikes their shadow. This is some Iron Fist/Cassandra Cain crap.

David beat him as Old Snake (adding even another layer to the feat). Unfortunately it was an in-game boss battle so all we have to go on is the aftermath, which has Vamp crouched on the floor after Snake beat him down and nullified his healing factor with nanomachines.

The DGN gives is a more traditional battle between the two.

Now this fight isn't actually canon, HOWEVER it was actually approved by Hideo Kojima (along with everything else seen in the comics) so even though it didn't happen, we know that it would have.

Now the question becomes, how on Earth does Solid Snake beat guys like this?! It is pretty crazy. I'll give you the answer.

  1. Instincts.
  2. Tactics.

Solid Snake isn't actually... human. He was cloned from Big Boss's cells and genetically modified to express an abundance of "soldier genes." This makes him a natural Blood Knight with an aptitude for combat. In fact, it was for this reason that he referred to himself in MGS4 as "a shadow (of a man) that no light would shine on." That's not exactly a good thing for the character, but it does grant him an almost sixth sense. Snake is known for being unbelievably quick and resourceful, constantly adapting to his situation, so much so that Colonel Campbell actually dubbed him "The Man Who Makes The Impossible, Possible."

So, do I think Snake can outskill Daredevil? Ehh possibly. Do I think he can adapt and overcome him with a clever tactic like he did Vamp? Definitely. Especially equipped with an entire military arsenal in his pants that he is adept at using to it's full potential. Even if Daredevil is a better martial artist... he still can't hurt Snake that much.

@wolverine08 rawr

#32 Posted by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Nice I'll make this next post a counter to your points, and a summary of why I think Daredevil should win. I'll get to it by Friday or Saturday.

#33 Posted by nickzambuto (13386 posts) - - Show Bio
#34 Posted by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Naw, I finished my last exam for the semester today so I'm finally free for a bit. I'll get up my final post tomorrow.

#35 Edited by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Okay, let's end this thing on a high note Nick, shall we?

I feel like people are going to think I'm lowballing the feat to hell, but believe me I'm not. It's one of Daredevil's greatest showings and it definitely proves without a doubt that he is peak human. However, the character still sacrificed power for speed for the most part, and consistently lags behind other characters like Captain America in raw strength. This is a consistent thing with Daredevil's character, there have been a bunch of instances in the past where he's fought robots or some other thing that he couldn't injure by conventional means and had to resort to other tactics (that's why he has so many pressure point showings). Nuke is a classic example, the guy got KOd by an angry Steve Rogers but Matt Murdock hurt his hand touching him. And again I'm really not lowballing, because I freely admit that Nuke is SUPER powerful, and failing to hurt him is really not a mark against Daredevil. However, that said, what did Solid Snake do against a character of similar ability?

You actually laid out here how Daredevil is going to win this. You've done a great job of showing off Solid Snake's strength(Which I admit is superior to Daredevil's), but this fight won't be coming down to whom can slug harder. Matthew's style isn't to punch out his opponents until they don't get up. He won't bullrush you and attack until there is nothing to attack anymore like a Wolverine would. His fights with Captain America and Nuke are pretty clear cut examples of how he handles things. He evades and gets in the right shots at the right time. He goes for subtle damage that pays off in the long run. Solid Snake may be indeed a formidably strong man, but this won't be very useful against an opponent who's fighting style is going to limit the use of said strength overall.

One of example of Matt using his avoidance to hang with someone who should honestly wreck him in a fight was his confrontation against Wolverine in Enemy of The State.

Matt even had the disadvantage of being jumped by Wolverine and his hoard of Hand Ninja, and he was still able to recover quickly and use his agility to maneuver around the room flawlessly, and even get the upperhand on Wolverine. Looking at things, Wolverine is most definitely someone I'd call a superior hand to hand combat than Solid Snake. He'd rocking knowledge of every martial art that exists including 18 forms of Kung Fu, kenjutsu, buijuitsu, aikido, etc. been trained by some of the most skilled men the world has to offer like Master Po, Ogun, the Hand Leader Stick(Matt's own teacher), Silver Samurai,etc. has shown technical skill great enough to determine the weak point on an opponent's body just with a glance, determine an opponent's style just through a glance, give someone a pseudo aneurysm through a pressure point attack aimed at his leg, drop the alien Kid Gladiator through pressure points, etc. and I'd call him Solid Snake's physical superior in terms of strength as well. Granted, it was being subtly insinuated through Enemy of the State that Logan's actions were not his own and that his overall efficiency were being effected by being mind controlled, but it is still an awesome feat for Matt, and clearly demonstrates how he will use his agility to get the upperhand in this fight.

Honestly, I simply disagree :(

What I meant by that Matt has the strength to compete here isn't that he can match Solid Snake pound for pound in the strength department. No, Matthew does not be able to do so as strength has never been something that's lead to wins in fights for him. The combination of his strength, avoidance, and technical skill are what will allow him to aptly compete here.

If this were a "Can Daredevil knock out a paralyzed Solid Snake?" debate then I'd agree with you. However, you forget to factor in the fact that Matt will be taking damage at the same time, and given the feats we've both provided provided, it should be clear who drops first.

In terms of damage output, Snake is just at an absolutely massive advantage, not only because of his strength, but his durability. Whereas Matt Murdock will struggle to maintain consciousness after a couple minutes of taking hits from this super soldier, Snake will go virtually unfazed by the vigilante's strikes. I mean flipping a 3,000 pound limo is one thing, but Gray Fox overpowering REX's 505 ton leg with one arm is another thing entirely. And how does Snake react to a punch from someone like that?

He goes unfazed and immediately counterattacks.

And you're saying Daredevil can knock this guy out? Even more impressive is when Snake survived getting launched by Metal Gear RAY, which was far more powerful than REX.

In terms of damage output, Snake is just at an absolutely massive advantage, not only because of his strength, but his durability. Whereas Matt Murdock will struggle to maintain consciousness after a couple minutes of taking hits from this super soldier, Snake will go virtually unfazed by the vigilante's strikes. I mean flipping a 3,000 pound limo is one thing, but Gray Fox overpowering REX's 505 ton leg with one arm is another thing entirely. And how does Snake react to a punch from someone like that?

He goes unfazed and immediately counterattacks.

And you're saying Daredevil can knock this guy out? Even more impressive is when Snake survived getting launched by Metal Gear RAY, which was far more powerful than REX.

I am not underestimating Solid Snake's damage output via his strikes at all, but they aren't going to really that much of a game changer unless Matt decides to slug it out with him, which would be horrendously out of character for the Man Without Fear. Matt is going to be on a constant evasion spree with acrobatic evasion, sensing Solid Snake's muscles tightening before it comes and dodging it, maneuvering around them. That top tier avoidance is going to make sure that Matt is the man here who gets touched less, and he can do damage with his strikes considering how strong he is, and even then, once Matt sees that his punches aren't knocking Solid Snake senseless, he most definitely has other methods of reaping critical amounts of damage on Solid Snake, pressure points. As already aforementioned around in this debate, something that has come along with his training with Stick and incredible martial prowess is an extreme amount of dexterity with nerve strikes. Matt is one of the best users of them around Marvel land, and it is very in character for Matt to use them, especially if he sees that he needs to step up the damage on Snake. Just to give a view of said pressure point ability, Mr Hyde was a 70 tonner and even with all his durability was dropped succinctly by Matt's nerve strike prowess.

And given that Daredevil is going to be using his top tier avoidance to avoid Solid Snake's blows along with dropping these pressure point attacks at the same time, the damage output factor could easily shift to Daredevil's side throughout this fight.

Daredevil tagged Iron Fist by catching him off guard with a ricochet. Solid Snake, as fate would have it, happens to be an expert at dodging ricochets, as Revolver Ocelot would attest.

Yeah, Daredevil did surprise Iron Fist, but let us be reminded that Danny has casually dodge bullets even when caught by surprise, and like I showed in my last post, even caught them in his hands as well, and Daredevil's accuracy with his billy club was good enough to subtly catch him off guard. The surprise factor is also a another thing to be considered. I doubt Solid Snake will be thinking of the billy club in Daredevil's hands as a fairly dangerous projectile wielded by someone with some pretty great throwing skills.

The implication seems obvious to me, Cap acted like a complete brute as Daredevil wondered why he was acting like a complete brute. Just read his monologue. He even says that Cap has never been this hard nosed - as in Cap was fighting in a fashion that he never had before.

No, Captain America was not acting like a brute, nor was Daredevil wondering why Steve was coming at him like a brute. All that was changed was that Steve was coming at him with more aggression than you would expect from someone to do to a teamate. He wasn't playing games or doing anything like pulling his punches anymore. He simply was extremely determined to put Matt down, and their is no indication that he skill was being affected by this. All in all, it is a pretty incredible feat of avoidance for Matt, and shows what he can do in this fight to avoid getting his face bloodied by multiple blows from Solid Snake.

That's kinda out of context, I don't think that's what Bucky meant. He's not saying Steve was aggressive, just that he's better at "charging right in" whereas Bucky might have set up a sniping position or used stealth or relied on a firearm, etc.

It most definitely notes that Steve is better at charging right in, and looking at Steve and Bucky's respective careers even further exemplifies this to me if you look closer. Bucky was trained more of as an assassin compared to Steve who was bred to be a more of a front lines soldier. Bucky tends to outsmart and not beat his opponents through thinking a couple of steps ahead of them. Now, while Steve is a tactical battle machine, his aforementioned physicals allow him to engage his opponents in a more physical way. I mean, how often do we see Steve stealth or subtly engage his opponents like Bucky has done with people like Wolverine and Sabretooth. I think it is pretty safe to say that Steve approaches things than Bucky would care to.

And before you get started on all that silly technical knowledge stuff, let me say (and I doubt anybody's going to believe this) PRESSURE POINTS AREN'T THAT AMAZING. They don't show ANY advanced combat techniques knowledge, all they show is that character X can use pressure points. Solid Snake is the CQC master, he has an encyclopedic knowledge of holds, throws, and grapples the more advanced of which are even effective against characters with super strength and/or speed. THAT is technical knowledge, or perhaps I should phrase that as, knowledge on techniques. He doesn't know where any nerve clusters or anything like that are, but he knows how to attack the body's weak points like the heart and other organs, throat, neck, eyes, groin, and other discombobulating moves. Add to that, CQC, or Close Quarters Combat, is a system of attacks specifically designed to incorporate gunplay into H2H combat. So Snake isn't just a guy who can punch you in the face, he can punch you in the face while shooting you in the stomach.

Honestly, looking at this debate, you have kind of underplayed the importance of technical knowledge and the traditional methods of showcasing skill in comics. While regular martial skill and hand to hand combat will not always be the deciding factor in a fight, they almost always hold some importance, especially in a street level fight like this where things could easily develop into a fist fight. In regards to pressure points, they are most definitely an example of technical skill Nick. They show that you understand different ways to put damage than your traditional punch or military grapple. The ability to precisely cause certain effects with well aimed pressure points when and where you want to show a level of knowledge more advanced than your typical fight. In regards to precision, Daredevil has that using pressure points in spades. Just look at the time he used a pressure point in the solar plexus region to drop Mr. Hyde.

The technical skill shown here is immense. With just a little bit more of a twist to the right, Matt could have killed Mister Hyde.\, but he used just correct precision to only incapacitate him. Now that is a true example of technical skill.

Even then, Matt has shown the specific techniques that you consider technical skill as well. I already posted the instance, but in his fight against Hammerhead, Matt noted that he knows how to execute blows that with the correct veracity, can paralyze man.

It doesn't get any more precise than that if I say so myself.

So while those scans against Punisher are impressive, Daredevil actually had the drop on Frank in each of them, and only had to travel a few yards to reach him, so that's worth considering. If shooting two bullet timers, a muscle reader, and hitting a chopper with a missile while midfreefall isn't enough for you, Snake can still shoot Daredevil in CQC. Punisher managed to do it.

Daredevil only had one instance in those confrontations with Punisher in which he had drop on Frank. In the second instance I posted, Punisher was completely ready and had the drop on Matthew. Even then, Matthew evaded Frank's gunfire with incredible agility(Showing how hard of a time top tier marksmen have getting a hold on Daredevil), and was able to make things into a hand to hand fight(Something he can do here with Snake). As for the instance of Frank shooting Daredevil in close quarters, everybody gets their lucky shots, and there are more instances of Daredevil avoiding Frank's precise gunfire than him getting tagged. Consistency reigns supreme when dealing with comic book showings. Overall, there are a good amounts of showings that have been demonstrated that illustrate that there is a great chance of Daredevil avoiding Solid Snake;s gunfire and making this into a hand to hand fight.

Now that I have addressed your post, I'll just sum up why Daredevil should win.

Summary:

I think that overall, we have both shown in different ways that our respective combatants are extremely formidable street levelers. Solid Snake brings things like his on the go thinking, while Daredevil brings his own unique skill set with things like his agility, but overall, I think Matt has the means to edge things out. The first thing that I must stress for the audience to remember is Matt's avoidance. It is absolutely critical and one of the major reasons he should win this fight. Matt is going to be constantly avoiding Snake and his dangerous punches. He is going to make sure that he is the combat that receives the least amount of damage overall, and is going to get the critical hits at the right time while being able to keep his body at good functioning condition. That top tier avoidance is also going to manifest itself in Daredevil being able to avoid Snake's gunfire and push this into the territory that suits him, hand to hand combat. In regards to hand to hand combat, Daredevil already holds an edge due to his agility, but his superior technical skill also serves to amplify his advantage in a close quarters fight. While Snake's military training has served to arm him with an extremely efficient fighting style, I think what Matt has learned martially with Stick is the more dangerous weapon in a comic fight, and things like pressure points can be extremely devastating to Solid Snake.

Overall, good match man.

#36 Posted by GraniteSoldier (7530 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks good on both sides.

Online
#37 Posted by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Posted by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio
#39 Posted by nickzambuto (13386 posts) - - Show Bio
#40 Posted by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@nickzambuto: You want to call out some voters?

No, let me make a reply.

Thought you mentioned that you'd wrap up what you wanted to get across in post 29 then I'd make one more reply, but make another one if you want to. Let the debate get some meat. I'll make a final reply if I think it's necessary.

#41 Edited by GateKeeperDeluxe (1 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

That's false. A Navy SEAL or Marine would utterly destroy a 15th century Japanese ninja. These fancy shmancy kung-fu moves don't mean anything to the kill techniques taught to a soldier.

Dude you know absolutely nothing about martial arts.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Martial-Arts-3210/CQC-Close-Quarters-Combat.htm

It's common knowledge that traditional martial arts, such as karate or kenpo, take longer to develop because they build up motor functions and movements, and end up creating a more balanced and effective fighter than military combat systems like Krav Maga which CQC is based off of.

You should really try doing 10 seconds of research before making such a ridiculous statement. As someone who's practiced martial arts for over a decade I feel offended by such an ignorant statement.

@wolverine08 said:

@nickzambuto said:

@wolverine08 said:

@nickzambuto: You want to call out some voters?

No, let me make a reply.

Thought you mentioned that you'd wrap up what you wanted to get across in post 29 then I'd make one more reply, but make another one if you want to. Let the debate get some meat. I'll make a final reply if I think it's necessary.

Just wanted to let you know Wolverine08 that you win this argument, soundly. Mainly because a majority if not all of Solid Snake's feats here are horribly distorted and out of context. Mostly due to Nickzambuto and CadenceV2 spreading horrible misinformation and using non canon material and different continuities.

Twin Snakes and IDW Comics are non canon, Sean Eyestone of Konami has confirmed this. The IDW is in an entirely seperate canon all together, in this version Solid Snake defeats Solidus instead of Raiden.

The most important thing is that Kojima hated Twin Snakes, he didn't like the way how characters were portrayed in that game, he obviously doesn't see his own characters the way Metal Gear Solid fanboys do.

Solid Snake's stats are below peak human. It was shown at the end of MGS2 that he was unable to break a pair of hand cuffs, a peak human feat, until they were damaged by stray gunfire, even after they wre damaged he took several minutes to break them.

The other strength feat I hear about is that the rail gun used in MGS2 has the power of a tank turret, it has the power, not the recoil of one. Fortune was able to casually use a rail gun throughout most of MGS2.

Solid Snake never defeated Gray Fox either. It was confirmed by Solid Snake and Naomi that Gray Fox wanted to die. Had he wanted to kill Solid Snake he would of easily.

Gray Fox was able to pwn Ocelot and slice his hand clean off, this is the same Ocelot that beat the shit out of Snake in Guns of the Patriots

24 minutes in, Snake is armed but Ocelot still disarms him and beats his ass effortlessly.

Snake did defeat Ocelot at the end of MGS4, but only because Ocelot was dying from Foxdie.

Snake was older in MGS4, but the Octocamo he was wearing compensated and gave him the same physical stats he had when he was younger.

Also, Ocelot pales in comparison to Bullseye in every category. Accuracy, Ocelot couldn't hold Lesters jockstrap, hand to hand skills, not even close, and most importantly Bullseye has bullet timing feats, Ocelot doesn't.

Vamp has shown that he's unable to bullet time.

5 minutes in

When he fought Raiden in MGS2 Raiden ended up grazing him in the face because Vamp had trouble reading his muscle movements. This puts Vamp below the peak human status for speed.

Vamp also managed to blitz Snake and pin him up against a wall in MGS2, If a non bullet timer like Vamp could humiliate Snake so badly, it'll be worse against a legitimate bullet timer like Daredevil.

Solidus was actually a bullet timer, and Snake showed that he was unable to keep up with him in MGS2 and needed to use a grenade launcher to nail him.

about 4:30 in, Solidus is taunting Snake.

Below peak human physical strength, getting dismantled by Ocelot who's not on the same planet as Bullseye, unable to keep up with Solidus, and getting blitzed by non bullet timers.

Solid Snake has nothing going for him, he's one of the most overrated video game characters and most of his fanboys are unable to do any math or scientific calculations beyond 3rd grade level. The rail gun used in MGS2 had a kinectic energy of 10 megajoules, that would roughly equate to mach 2-3 in terms of projectile speed. Roughly the same as an machine gun. Except Solid Snake dodged one from 1000+ feet away, where most characters can dodge from 10-15 feet away.

#42 Posted by Wolverine08 (41073 posts) - - Show Bio