#1 Edited by tparks (5919 posts) - - Show Bio

Solid Snake and Big Boss @nickzambuto

Splinter and Shredder @tparks

Rules:

  1. Morals on, in character
  2. Win by vote
  3. Standard Gear
  4. Fight to team with at least one character still standing
  5. Mountains are off limits, everything else is fair game in the photo. Buildings are locked, but the doors and windows are breakable.

Location:

I started us both kind of in the wide open, because if you have the chance to go stealth right from the beginning, I will have no chance in this with your radars/camouflage.

@nickzambuto

#2 Posted by nickzambuto (17332 posts) - - Show Bio

Stealth?

STEALTH?

YOU THINK WE NEED STEALTH TO WIN?

THESE AIN'T NO TURTLES B**** YOU'RE DEALING WITH THE GODDAMN SNAKES. WE WILL EAT THAT RAT FOR BREAKFAST.

MUNCH MUNCH MOTHERF**CKER.

#3 Posted by tparks (5919 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Lol. I'm going to like this thread. Do you want to start? Are you happy with rules/set up? I kept it pretty basic.

#4 Posted by Wolverine08 (47669 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll be watching.

#5 Posted by jwalser3 (5726 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Posted by nickzambuto (17332 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks said:

@nickzambuto: Lol. I'm going to like this thread. Do you want to start? Are you happy with rules/set up? I kept it pretty basic.

I'll start right now. BRB

#7 Posted by nickzambuto (17332 posts) - - Show Bio

Big Boss:

The legendary mercenary, heralded as the single greatest soldier in the history of mankind, the one-eyed warrior - "The Boss of Victory."

  • Sneaking Suit
  • M1911A1 Suppressed Pistol
  • CQC Knife
  • Patriot
  • Fake Death Pill
  • Claymore

Solid Snake:

Known worldwide as "The Man Who Makes the Impossible, Possible". Hero of Outer Heaven, Zanzibarland, Shadow Moses, and countless others, genetically modified super soldier and successor to Big Boss himself, Solid Snake is a legend in the Black Ops world.

  • Sneaking Suit
  • Suppressed SOCOM Pistol
  • Stun Knife
  • Assault Rifle
  • Soliton Radar
  • C4

Now right from the beginning, my team has a pretty distinct advantage against yours. As highly trained and experienced as Splinter and Shredder are, they simply can not compete with two super soldiers. The ninjas are just that - ninjas. Now not only do both Snakes already have an extensive history against ninjas, but when it comes to training, versatility, tactics, gear, instinct, all the basic givens of a modern super soldier, it becomes clear that the ninjas are at a very severe disadvantage. They are up against two of the most intelligent and adaptable operatives to ever enter the battlefield, the scope and range of what Snake and Big Boss are capable of is simply out of the ninjas' league. Not to disrespect either TMNT character as the both of them are obviously two of the most disciplined and noteworthy characters in the whole franchise, but Snake and Big Boss have a plethora of ways that they can end this besides raw close quarters combat, which is of course both Splinter and Shredder's area of expertise, therefore limiting the two of them quite a bit considering the varied plethora of strategies the soldiers can apply in battle.

The first area I'd like to cover is CQC, which, to my knowledge, is the only way Splinter and Shredder can actually go about doing this. By comparison the Snakes can stealth it out, or unleash an entire arsenal all at once, or coat the entire battlefield in traps and explosives, etc, they have a lot of options. But for now I'll talk about the most interesting one.

Like I mentioned, both Snakes have an extensive history with ninjas. Frank Yaeger - AKA Null, or later, Gray Fox, being the prime example. As a mere prepubescent child, Frank was one of the most skilled killers in his nation, apparently slaughtering dozens of armed soldiers at a time with just a single knife. As a teen, he was the only survivor of the "Perfect Soldier Project", which, in addition to hightened reflexes, resulted in a completely wiped brain - no thoughts, no memories, no emotions, nothing taking up space besides combat techniques. He is completely hyper-aware, reading the moves of his enemies and destroying them before they even realize what is happening. Null nearly destroyed San Hieronymo singlehandedly in a rage, but Big Boss fought him twice, in the end nearly beating him to death with no weapons.

Big Boss fought Frank as a teen. The Cyborg Ninja (who is Frank) is a 50 year old veteran samurai, beefed up even further by a powered exoskeleton. When Solid Snake encountered him at Shadow Moses, he defeated him, much like his father had decades earlier.

If Snake and Big Boss can dodge Gray Fox's sword strikes, who was quick enough to easily deflect gunfire with his blade, then they're agility is more than enough to make Shredder and Splinter sweat for that kill. Let's also keep in mind that Frank was the only FOXHOUND agent to ever earn the codename Fox in the agencies entire lifespan, and as a cyborg was strong enough to support the weight of the 505 ton Metal Gear REX.

Perhaps even more impressively was Gene, the FOX commander. Alright so he's not really a traditional ninja, but the point still stands: his main offense was throwing knives, which he could throw at supersonic speeds with pinpoint accuracy, enough to nail a bullet timer to a wall. Gene was the result of the "Successor Project", the big brother to the Perfect Soldier Project that created Null, and as such possessed even higher perception and reactionary abilities, at one point weaving through turret fire from a vulcan canon so quickly that everyone around him thought he was standing still. He's also blitzed a precog, FTR.

0:30-1:10

Yet once again, he was no match for Big Boss.

Big Boss wasn't even out of breath (this is the aftermath of the boss fight. There's no cutscene actually showing them duke it out unfortunately)

And then there's Vamp, the Romanian knife wizard.

Another highly trained assassin who can effortlessly deflect machine gun fire from trained SEALS with a knife, and had mastered multiple forms of ninjitsu, including the ability to read an opponent's muscle movements, as well as shadow binding technique.

He's basically a Naruto character, and Old Snake bested him handily in CQC during MGS4, while pretty severely injured no less.

Not even Cyborg Ninja Raiden, for all his skill and dexterity, could overcome Vamp in close combat.

Other ninja type characters who have been defeated by one of the Snakes include Olga Gurlukovich and Kyle Schneider, so dodging bladed weapons is really something they are both pretty accustomed to at this point. If the duo can defeat opponents like Gray Fox, Gene, and Vamp with just their bare hands, each of whom posses a major stat edge over both Splinter and Shredder not to mention comparable skill and training, then they should be more than skilled enough to take out the TMNT duo.

@tparks

#8 Edited by tparks (5919 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I just got swamped with a bunch of unexpected work, but I'm going to try and put a post up tonight.

#9 Edited by tparks (5919 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Awesome post! I knew I'd have an uphill battle in this one from the start, but that was an impressive way to kick things off.

Anyways, let me show you a little about the Master Splinter and the Shred-Head before I tell you what they have to do to beat a couple of Snakes.

Master Splinter

Splinter was born in feudal Japan as Hamato Yoshi. He was an elite member of the ninja Foot Clan. He was betrayed by Oroku Saki (Shredder) and was executed along with his 4 sons (turtles). He has been reincarnated as a rat that was mutated into Master Splinter. His mutation gave him low level superhuman abilities which he has demonstrated in feats that not even a peak human could perform. Unlike the turtles, Splinter was given treatments to enhance his brain functions, which is why he has a complete recollection of his past life where the Turtles have a blurred memory. All of his past feats and skills have been ingrained in him, which is why he is a master martial artist, even though he has only been mutated for around 2-1/2 years.

Here's what he can do...

Splinter leads his sons against Old Hob's gang.

  • Scan 2: Splinter uses his palm strike. This is one of Splinter's signature moves. I'll add a few more scans in this post that show him using this move with some more power behind it. He could one shot KO either Snake with this blow.
  • Scan 3 & 4: Splinter uses some quick technical strikes to take out Old Hob with his bo staff and fist. Each shot is placed in vulnerable areas of Old Hob. He finally drives Old Hob to the ground with a Judo move very similar to a CQC move the Snakes are known for.

Stealth

I'm not going to try and claim that Snake can beat your team in a stealth match. That would be way too much of a stretch on my part and I don't have enough feats I can pull of him to do that. I will however claim that his stealth should at least be considered. He is no stranger to using stealth and that should help him with a battle against the two experts if only to avoid some of your team's early gun shots.

  • Scan 1: Splinter leaps from the top of a high building into the alley with the guards. He is able to land silently (a showing of his enhanced abilities) so the guards can't hear him. He then chokes out one of the guards while another guard is standing right in front of him. The guard that was not attack never hears or sees anything and Splinter hides the unconscious guard and sneaks away.
  • Scan 2: Splinter uses a pop can to distract two guards so he can sneak by and get to a ladder.
  • Scan 3: Splinter hides until the last minute and one-shots a guard with a powerful shot to the stomach with his staff.
  • Scan 1: Hamato Yoshi uses parkour like movements to sneak up on a guard from a roof top and silently slit his throat.
  • Scan 2: Yoshi uses parkour again to sneak past more guards and take out one last guard with a powerful slash with his katana that slices completely through his neck.

Here is Yoshi taking out two assassins sent by Saki (Shredder)

Even as a human, he had the skill and strength to easily overpower these two trained ninjas.

  • Scan 1 & 2: Splinter goes into a rage. He cuts clean through half of one ninja's entire upper torso. The other ninjas he impales with both katanas and is able to lift off the ground with his strength

Splinter's enhanced strength against mousers

Splinter is able to shred through robotic mousers, with nothing but his bare hands and tail. He has shown that his tail is a very powerful weapon quite a few times in the new series.

  • Splinter is able to cause shards of metal to burst apart as he punches a mouser
  • Splinter smashes a mouser 'Hulk" style by bringing two fists down hard
  • Splinter crushes a mousers head with a powerful tail swing

Splinter runs a foot soldier gauntlet.

This is one of my favorite fights in comics. It took three issues from start to end including a micro-series issue to finally finish. Splinter is captured and is forced to fight all of Shredder's forces. This icludes:

  1. A gigantic foot soldier
  2. An entire army of Foor soldiers
  3. Karai
  4. A second army of Foot Soldiers
  5. Alopex
  • I won't point out individual scans, I'll just make a few points.
  • A powerful Muy Thai knee thrust that was able to cripple the giant Foot soldier
  • Cutting an arrow in half while it is in mid-flight. This was shot by Karai from a very close distance. Karai has archery feats in the new series that look like they belong in a Green Arrow or Hawkeye issue
  • Agility in dodging the very fast and highly skilled Alopex
  • A one hit KO uppercut on Alopex
  • Parrying a Katana by catching the blade while it is being swung at him. He times this perfectly and does not even cut his hand.
  • Below the Katana catch in the same scan is one of his super-powerful palm thrusts he is known for
  • Throwing a foot soldier over his head with his tail

Splinter uses his mastery of several forms of martial arts

These scans are from an issue where a masked Splinter demonstrates to his sons that they have become too comfortable fighting only one martial arts style.

  • Scan 3: Splinter kicks Mikey's nunchuck away, knocks Raph off balance, catches Leo's sword between his palms, flips him over his back, and breaks Don's staff. This style is very similar to the Snakes' CQC if quickly flooring or disarming opponents and moving to the next in rapid succession. The only difference is that Splinter is able to use more acrobatic and athletic movements do to his very high level of mastery in multiple disciplines
  • Scan 4: Splinter switches styles by using Donnies' broken staff for stick fighting
  • Scan 6: Splinter uses Parkour to quickly move through the city
  • Scan 8: Splinter uses a Savate and Parkour style to take out the turtles again
  • Scan 9 & 10: Splinter switches to Wung Chun which is composed of quick blocks and counter attacks to open up shots to pressure points and nerve strikes
  • Scan 11: Splinter blocks Leo'ss sword and uses a judo throw to disarm him. He then stomps Leo's katana hard enough to break it in half
  • Scan 12, 13, & 14: Splinter again shows his skill with a bo staff

I have a few other scans for Splinter, but that's enough for now. I'll save them for my next post.

Shredder

Shredder was born Takeshi Tatsuo a generation before Hamato Yoshi (human Splinter). Takeshi Tatsuo rises to the top of the foot clan by killing all who stand in his way. He meets a witch, Kitsune, who is able to grant him eternal life from some sort of mixture of Ooze (same stuff that mutated the turtles). Tatsuo is eventually weakened and killed.

Enter Oroku Saki. Orokou Saki is an elite member of the foot clan, with only one rival in comparison, Hamato Yoshi (Splinter). Oroku Saki discovers he is the reincarnation of Takeshi Tatsuo. Oroku Saki then climbs his way back to the top of the foot clan murdering every one who stands in his way again. He later dies too.

Enter the Shredder. Saki is brought back from death by Karai. He takes the name Shredder and takes control of the Foot Clan for the third time in his third life.

Anyways, he's on his third lifetime of being a master martial artist, and here's what he can do...

Beats Splinter

When Splinter and Shredder fight, it is two equals meeting each other. There is no others that can compete with them when it comes to martial arts. In these scans, Shredder gets the win.

Shredder takes on all Four turtles

Notice how casually he blocks and attacks the turtles with enhanced abilities. The turtles are able to crush mousers and slice through Krang's armor with their attacks. Shredder is able to throw a fore arm up and block it like it is no big deal.

Shredder showing Karai and a group of her Foot soldiers why he's in charge

Shredder will not allow Karai to question why he leads the foot. He uses some quick and powerful strikes to end a fight against the very talented Karai and a small force of armed foot soldiers in seconds.

Shredder's strength allows him to hold people off the ground with one hand with ease. (he likes to choke people)

  • Scan 1: Holds the largest turtle, Raph, with only one hand and it takes him little effort.
  • Scan 2: He holds Leo with one hand and casually tosses him off of the side of a roof.
  • Scan 3 & 4: Shredder holds Casey with his spiked gauntlet off the ground with one arm. While still holding him, he stabs Casey in the chest with his other gauntlet.

I'm not convinced that Shredder is superhuman yet like I am with Splinter, but I think he may flirt with low level superhuman abilities at times. He is definitely peak human in the comic world's definition of the term which means he can do things that only the top athletes on the planet can do. Even without the superhuman abilities, his three lifetimes of martial arts mastery more then make up for it.

In Shredder's first lifetime, he was ambushed by several legions of samurai warriors. He was able to kill every single one of them by himself.

This doesn't need any explaining, he simply kills all of them with no help.

Oroku Saki kills four foot soldier ninjas sent to ambush him. He kills two with one swing.

That's enough for feats for now. I'll throw some more in my next post as necessary with how the battle goes. On to...

Strategy

I'm not going to try and claim that Splinter and Shredder have this in the bag. This is going to be a very tough fight for them and I think they are probably the underdogs on paper for this. The Snakes have guns, explosives, and a very handy radar. It's a good thing Splinter and Shredder have a total of five life times of being warriors to know not to do anything dumb in this battle. They are going to use their experience to put themselves in a position to let them close the range on your team.

After reading your opener, you pretty much sum up exactly what the Snakes can do in your closing very nicely.

Other ninja type characters who have been defeated by one of the Snakes include Olga Gurlukovich and Kyle Schneider, so dodging bladed weapons is really something they are both pretty accustomed to at this point. If the duo can defeat opponents like Gray Fox, Gene, and Vamp with just their bare hands, each of whom posses a major stat edge over both Splinter and Shredder not to mention comparable skill and training, then they should be more than skilled enough to take out the TMNT duo.

You also say,

Now right from the beginning, my team has a pretty distinct advantage against yours. As highly trained and experienced as Splinter and Shredder are, they simply can not compete with two super soldiers. The ninjas are just that - ninjas.

Pretty much your entire argument is that they can't win because they are ninjas.

Even if they were just ninjas, they would be ninjas with a total of 5 lifetimes of being masters of this skill which will put their mastery and knowledge of this combat over any other MGS character. I've shown in the feats above though, that Splinter has mastery over much more then just a ninjitsu style of fighting. He switches between multiple disciplines and doesn't lack in any style.

I don't actually expect Splinter to be carrying a katana either. His standard equipment is going to be a bo staff. This is not a disadvantage. He may be considered a ninja, but as the feats above prove, he is much more then a ninja. He is not going to rely on ninjitsu, he is going to be switching styles constantly to keep the Snakes on their toes. He uses his staff to hit vulnerable areas with perfect technical skill which he will need to do to damage the two Snakes. He can also use his staff to trip the Snakes. He also has the added advantage of his tail as an extra limb to use in combat that the Snakes will not expect.

I'm not going to lie and say that the top MGS villains are weaker then Splinter, however, I will say Splinter is more technically sound then they are. The other villains need enhancements to fight the Snakes (exception of Olga, but she is arguably the weakest of the ones you mentioned). Splinter, instead of relying on enhancements from genetics or suits, will capitalize on his skill and experience. He only needs to place one good shot to be able to KO either Snake. He's going to use his mastery of martial arts to force the Snakes into making one wrong move, and then he will hit them. Here are examples of how hard he can hit when he can force his opponent to give him the opportunity to put his strength into his attack.

  • Scans 1 & 2: These show Splinter using his devastating palm thrusts. The first scan illustration shows the speed and power of his palm strikes.
  • Scan 3: Splinter uses his extreme strength to pummel Shredder to the ground with his staff
  • Scan 4: Splinter's kick is so powerful that it folds a foot soldier's body in half

Shredder is just as technically sound as Splinter. Shredder also won't be carrying a katana as his standard equipment is his armor. His armor gives him added protection. It also gives him lots of pointy ends to skewer a Snake. Shredder can also one shot either Snake if he gets up close and personal. His bladed gauntlets will be his best bet to end a fight. He will also push the attack on the Snakes until he can get even the slightest opening.

If Shredder and Splinter can close the distance, and make this a hand to hand fight, they have a really good shot at taking this. Splinter can use his parkour free running skills to sprint through cover and avoid leaving his body open to gun shots. Shredder will follow close behind using the little bit of cover provided in this location whenever he needs to avoid a raised gun.

Closing

Splinter and Shredder may not be at the extreme levels of some MGS villains, but their several lifetimes of warrior lives should give them the experience that other MGS villains have lacked. They will rely on their battle intelligence and mastery of multiple martial arts to never give the Snakes a chance to use their more advanced equipment to their potential. If these two can close the distance, the scales will tip heavily in their favor. They also both have the ability to one-shot either Snake. Splinter with a well landed palm strike, nerve strike, pressure point strike, powerful kick, or tail swing. Shredder with one of his gauntlets. This will be their best chance of ending this fight quick.

#10 Edited by nickzambuto (17332 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks

When I say the reason Splinter and Shredder can't win is because their ninjas, what I mean is that, in being trained as ninjas, they lack certain skills that would be required to actually go up against super soldiers. Obviously Snake and Big Boss have a big advantage in more modern weapons and techniques, firearms and other advanced gear, not to mention elite tactical training for setting traps and ambushes. Basically they have a plethora of ways to keep this fight at a range, and if Splinter and Shredder are incapable of bringing things up close, they are effectively not a thread. Keep in mind, Big Boss has been trained by every major military organization in the United States and is considered a master with virtually every form of modern military weaponry in existence. He was the personal disciple of The Boss for 10 years, who is heralded as "The Mother of Special Forces", and not only has John been able to recognize the various shooting techniques used by master marksman like EVA and Revolver Ocelot, but he's been able to improve upon them.

Revolver Ocelot ranked "Major" in GRU as a teenager, and was playing triple agent for every side of the Cold War by his 18th birthday. Needless to say he's a pretty smart guy, who of course specializes in sharpshooting, but Naked Snake in his youth was able to analyze his technique, find a flaw, and capitalize on it to decimate the entire Ocelot Unit alone.

In terms of raw accuracy, Naked Snake's accuracy is completely perfect. Whatever he aims at, he always hits, and he's even capable of some low-level ricochet shots (though not to Revolver Ocelot's caliber). The abundance of "soldier genes" in his body have enhanced his senses to blatantly superhuman levels, allowing him to do things like hear a conversation happening at a distance humans can barely even see, detect the Ocelot Unit approaching while asleep from behind a brick wall, and even fight invisible foes. His enhanced senses (mostly eyesight, obviously) is what allows him to make unbelievable distance shots.

The world record for sniper rifle shooting is a little over 2,000 meters, but Snake made this shot from nearly 4,000, with one of the most inaccurate weapons imaginable.

Then there is the Chrysalis, an advanced Artificial Intelligence designed to dodge bullets. Snake destroyed this whilst dodging chainguns and rail cannon blasts, as the mech was flying thousands of feet overhead, weaving around erratically in the thick fog. Oh and it was also bulletproof, meaning the only area Snake could actually damage was the little AI Pod dangling from it's head.

Meanwhile Solid Snake was bred since birth to become the world's most dangerous weapon. He has surpassed his father in all fields, and is a skilled enough marksman to tag speedsters and bullet timers, while dodging projectiles himself.

It's true that Olga was the least enhanced Cyborg Ninja in the series - in fact, she had no enhancements at all, but was still an effortless bullet timer and managed to defend Raiden from a hailstorm of machine gun fire by deflecting every shot with her sword. However Solid Snake was skilled enough to shoot her regardless with a mere tranquilizer gun while literally outracing bullets.

Even more impressively was Vamp, a real hypersonic speedster who could run across water, vanish from plain sight, and enjoyed blitzing bullet timers, like Raiden (when Jack was human). I've already shown the clip of Vamp casually deflecting full automatic machine gun fire with his knife, so shooting him is clearly not an easy task. Only Old Snake has been capable of it (Vamp has a healing factor though so it didn't work, which is the reason Snake ended up going h2h with him)

I don't think Splinter and Shredder have many, if any at all, bullet timing feats. I know Splinter is supposed to be enhanced, but Snake has shot a bunch of enhanced characters, Olga and Vamp being on a whole different level of speed compared to Splinter. As far as I can see, the ninja have no counter to this.

Back to CQC though. Like I mentioned, Naked Snake was trained by The Boss, Mother of Special Forces and hero of WWII (she's basically Captain America), and surpassed her in the end. Now I know Splinter has mastered a plethora of different martial arts forms, but in the words of Bruce Lee, "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times." It's an advantage to Splinter, no argument about that, but when it comes to close quarters combat, Big Boss is literally the INVENTOR of the style, and as anyone can tell you, creating your own distinct style of martial arts shows a lot more advancement than just learning a few.

A young Big Boss explains the idea behind CQC - quick transition from h2h strikes to gunplay. He shows this in action by defeating the Ocelot Unit, as I posted above. So one prime advantage that the Snakes have against any foe, is that their CQC is not limited to just punching and kicking; they can still shoot you as well, and from CQC range it'll be even harder to dodge.

Keep in mind, EVERY feat I have shown for Solid Snake thus far was WITHOUT the use of CQC, rather he was using the much inferior CQB. Here he explains why, and talks about how advanced the style is compared to other techniques.

Then he displays said techniques in action.

If I can make a direct comparison between Solid Snake and Splinter, whereas the rat took on a gauntlet of Foot Ninja and then fought Shredder, Snake took on a gauntlet of FROG Soldiers, then took on the same gauntlet again reanimated from the dead by Screaming Mantis, then killed Mantis, then Snake tanked the dreaded microwave hallway, and still had enough strength to defend the Mk. III from a horde of Gekko, and FINALLY Snake fought Ocelot. Only difference is - Snake won, whereas Splinter succumbed to exhaustion and lost to Shredder. (Ocelot has insane reflexes and can make 40 foot vertical leaps in his old age, not to mention he stomped Raiden and learned CQC just by watching Big Boss do it, so he is definitely comparable to Shredder)

All that said about Snake, Big Boss is still superior in raw CQC technique.

To be perfectly honest, besides their showings against the turtles and entire hordes of ninja at once, those feats you posted for Shredder and Splinter just... aren't that impressive. A handful of canon fodder goons and samurai isn't anything Snake or Big Boss wouldn't stomp too. So hypothetically, let's just say that in H2H technique, the four of them are roughly even with BB and Shreds being top dogs. My Snakes would still win because the style they use is not strictly h2h, but rather, they can mix in gunplay at the same time.

I also think we are a lot faster than your guys and both of them can at least match Splinter in striking power, but this post is long enough. And NO Splinter is not oneshotting them!

#11 Edited by tparks (5919 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: First off, I have to say I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I agree that Splinter and Shredder are fighting an uphill battle here, but I will say that if they make it in close, CQC is not going to be an absolute saving grace for the snakes. This is where these two excel. You quoted Bruce Lee. The quote basically says more styles is not greater then better styles. Splinter and Shredder focus pretty much exclusively on close ranges. They have focused on this for a total of 5 lifetimes. The Snakes have focused on a lot more then close combat with their close quarter when you consider their ranged weapons, technology, intel, vehicles, etc.. Splinter and Shredder have focused almost solely on fighting up close and personal. And to say that Splinter has spread himself too thin with the styles he uses, is very inaccurate. He is a master of every form he uses. He made the Turtles look like jobbers, and the turtles are far from that. I understand a majority of your arguments, but this was a poor choice to use that quote as a method to make Splinter seem weaker because he is talented in so many different styles and can switch between them at will.

The Snakes could use their CQC or CQB to take down the enhanced ninjas when it came to close range, because they were that much better technically skilled then they are. They could use their better skill to overcome the strengths of their opponents, much like Batman does against his much stronger opponents. The problem here is that Splinter and Shredder are not less skilled then the Snakes. They are less skilled when it comes to military tactics and firearms, but they are not at all less skilled when it comes to fighting close range.

I agree that they don't have as many showings against opponents on the same level as themselves, but to be fair, there is no one in their universe on the same level as them. They are the best there is in their universe. I wouldn't call that a weakness though. They are the best martial artist in a universe full of ninjas. If anything, that's a great thing.

Also, I'm not sure where you came up with the whole 4000 meter shot. I don't think that's a very good judge of distance, because that looked more like 200 meters at the very most. That's being very generous. 4000 meters would be about 3 miles. That shot was not even near a 1/4 mile or even an 1/8 mile. It was probably 100 yards now that I watch it again. That is very impressive for the weapon he was using, but it was no where near a record. It was easily 30-40 times shorter then what you are claiming. The drone would not even be visible in the distance you are claiming, but it is a pretty good sized image while he focuses on it. It looks like a medium ranged shot for a rifle without a scope. That's the distance I set my scope for and I've hit targets as far as that video at the same range with my 30.6 hunting rifle with a cheap scope from Meijer's 10/10 times. (They weren't moving though)

Snake's skill in noticing flaws in fire arms here is not much help. Neither Splinter or Shredder will be carrying any firearms.

Closing

I'm pretty sure you won this, because like you said, I have no proof to show they can close the distance. I am confident if they can close the distance, they could have a great fight. I put up the best argument I could for them, but until they show some bullet timing or any fighting against guns at all, this is really tough.

I will say that if they can close the distance on your team, it would be interesting. Like you said, both Snakes have fought ninjas, but neither have fought ninjas with the skill these two have. Sure, they have had better physical abilities, but none have had a total of 5 lifetimes of training at a master level like these two have.

There is always the argument that these two don't have the wins against high enough opponents, but that's a weak argument in my opinion. They are the two best fighters in their universe by a huge margin. Just because they are so much better then everyone else, they should be considered weak? Even though they are in a universe full of martial artist and other enhanced / super human fighters? That logic does not make sense to me.

I have more scans to show, but I'm not sure it's worth it. I can't show anything that will prove that they can close the distance on the Snake's equipment and training. I knew this coming into this thread, but I thought it would be fun to lay all of this out against each other. I'm not going to lie, if I was a neutral reader who had to vote for this match, I would absolutely vote for you. I may love the new TMNT series and put Splinter and Shredder at the top with martial artist street levelers, but I'm not a irrational fanboy who thinks Splinter and Shredder are more then anything they have shown in print. lol. (maybe a little)

We can open this to voting if you want, but I know when I'm beat, and you sir, have beaten me rather completely. lol. Thanks for the chance of debating all of this out with me, but I should have predicted this outcome, especially from a MGS expert like yourself.

#12 Edited by nickzambuto (17332 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: I just want to address the rocket feat; that's a major flub on my part. I meant to say nearly 4,000 FEET, not meters, because it took an RPG missile about four seconds to reach it, which travel at about 900 FPS. That's still a Hawkeye-level accomplishment though (one of Ultimate Clint's best feats is nailing Ghost Rider with an RPG from a mile away. Well, Big Boss nailed that cipher from just under a mile)

Noticing the flaws in guns isn't what was impressive, rather the fact that Big Boss displays actual technical knowledge of firing techniques and methods is what is impressive. He does this a lot actually, and Kojima has stated that he wanted to make it clear that Big Boss is a major gun enthusiast. Characters like Spider-Man and Daredevil easily dodge bullets, yet someone like Bullseye can still magically shoot them somehow with no explanation besides just being really skilled. Big Boss on the other hand (and Snake too) have actual excuses for such feats. Basically, what the Snakes lack in fancy shmancy pressure point stuff, which is pretty standard for comic martial artists, they make up for with their realistic weapons knowledge, which is not-so standard.

I see your point about Shredder and Splinter focusing their training solely on CQC, and therefore they should be superior to Snake and Big Boss, but really that is not true. Sniper Wolf focused her entire life on being the world's best sniper, but Solid Snake beat her at her own game. The Fear's entire schtick was stealth and guerrilla tactics to the point where he even utilized paralyzing poisons and an invisible suit against his opponents, but Big Boss still took him down on his home turf. Revolver Ocelot is, well, just look at his name! And then look at how Naked Snake humiliated him. Most important of all is Frank Jaeger. Your argument is that the ninja-type characters Snake and Big Boss beat were not up to par with Splinter or Shredder in terms of skill. I completely disagree. Gray Fox never bothered with gun or stealth training; all he had was his sword, which he had spent his entire existence honing to perfect use. Not only that, but his "Perfect Soldier" mental enhancements give him a big edge over either TMNT character in skill, despite their lifetimes of experience.

But on multiple occasions he's proven inferior to both Snakes up close and personal. The fact that the Snakes have multiple skills doesn't mean they've spread themselves thin, it's funny because you started your post by saying the same thing about Splinter, that his usage of multiple martial arts doesn't make him inferior in any one style, but then you went and used that argument against the Snakes! Time and time again they have shown themselves to be the best in the world, at everything. So just because Splinter and Shredder have more of a focus on CQC, does not mean they are better. I honestly have not seen a feat from either of them that Frank Jaeger could not replicate. Ninja hordes are impressive, but - and I hate to rely on this argument - they are still canon fodder. Stomping the TMNT is SUPER impressive, but could Splinter do the same thing to a Cyborg Ninja?

Vamp did, and that was without his healing factor. He had Raiden completely beat, until Raiden cheated that is (they had agreed to an honorable duel and Vamp was going to kill Raiden with his own sword out of respect, but Raiden was just like lol surprise and shot a knife at him).

Once again, Vamp was not a multiskilled character - he had one specialty; knives. Not unlike Shredder. But alas, Solid Snake defeated him - twice if you count the DGN.

Vamp was also responsible for nearly singlehandedly wiping out the entirety of Seal Team 10, so hordes of enemies at once is not something he can not overcome. Shredder is no better than Vamp; physically he's actually a lot weaker and slower. So exactly what advantage does Shredder have against Solid Snake, the man who makes the impossible possible? At CQC the Snakes still have better feats, and at a range, their ninja opponents are helpless. The only thing that saved Gray Fox, Gene, and the other ninja-type MGS characters is that they could deflect gunfire. Can Splinter?

#13 Edited by nickzambuto (17332 posts) - - Show Bio
#14 Posted by Funsiized (3882 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Gets my vote.

@tparks did a good job defending his points, but his whole argument of "we can get close" seemed flawed to me, as even if they did get close(unlikely) they are not much of a threat(as mentioned by nick).

#15 Posted by tparks (5919 posts) - - Show Bio

Ironically I feel like your declaration of defeat is actually going to give you some unfair points with the voters, lol

@progenitor @jokergeist @funsiized @jashro44 @darkraiden @k4tzm4n Take a look if you'd like.

Ya, I really don't expect any votes at all. lol. There just are not any feats for me to prove that these two can close the distance. In the 2 years of their new series they have not yet faced anyone with guns. I kind of predicted this outcome before the debate even started, but I did the best I could with what I had. The only way I could possible have argued most of your claims, was to assume that Splinter and Shredder can overcome their huge disadvantages, but I didn't want to emberass myself by basically lying. Well done, you deserve this win by a landslide IMHO, because I have no real counter to your range or the caliber of enemies the Snakes have taken on and defeated.

#16 Posted by nickzambuto (17332 posts) - - Show Bio

@tparks: Oh yeah well you're a!... Very... nice guy.

Pleasure debating you :P

#17 Posted by tparks (5919 posts) - - Show Bio