This is definitely an up-hill battle for Cadence considering Kaine's stats.
I firmly believe Cadencev2 has helped Ultimate Captain America reach something akin to godhood in debater's eyes. Nonetheless, I will be perfectly impartial, and expect this to be a good debate. Both sides are experienced, both at debating and with their character.
This is definitely an up-hill battle for Cadence considering Kaine's stats.
I firmly believe Cadencev2 has helped Ultimate Captain America reach something akin to godhood in debater's eyes. Nonetheless, I will be perfectly impartial, and expect this to be a good debate. Both sides are experienced, both at debating and with their character.
Kaine Parker is a beast. A Spiderman level foe that terrifies criminals and meta-humans alike. He is like Peter Parker... just more brutal. SpOck... with even less of a moral boundary. He is absolutely deadly, and while he probably does have the physical stats the get into a slugfest with Ultimate Cap, I believe that there are two main advantages that Kaine has over Steve that grant him a majority.
Gear/Weapons
Kaine's weapons and gear will be hard to combat. use of Stringers, the Stealth suit and webbing will provide a plethora of problems for Cap to deal with, they even open potential for a one shot victory.
The stealth suit could be a game changer. It makes Kaine completely invisible at will. He can use it in combat, and disapear from the human eye so quickly that Assassins guild Snipers couldn't spot him at all.
Scarlet Spider #3
It is perfectly in character for Kaine to use the stealth suit to get a drop on his opponents, or simply take them out comfortably while they are unable to see him. Kaine's morals are awesome, he doesn't care if he cheap-shots his opponents once in a while. Here he take out the majority of the Assassins guild with the suit on.
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Scarlet Spider #4
Like i said, he has no problem with sucker-punching his opponents. That is a huge problem for Cap, especially with the next piece of gear, the stingers. The Stingers are what would allow Kaine to one-shot Cap. Cap has insane durability against, blunt force, these are piercing weapons. Here, he sucker punches Carnage, putting the stingers through him. This is a guy that has taken all out blows from 20+ tonners without even feeling the hit.
Venom #27
Carnage has a healing factor that is sufficient enough to allow him to heal from a hit like that. Cap doesn't. If Kaine does this to Cap, he is down for the count.
Scarlet Spider #17
He doesn't even have to sucker punch his opponents to land hits like that as you can see here. If Kaine Lands a hit like this on Cap, It's game over for him. He doesn't have a healing factor on Wolverine's level.
The final weapon in Kaine's arsenal that will be a problem for Cap, is webbing. We haven't seen him web anyone up for an incap yet, but if Kaine starts beating on Cap while encasing him in a webbing cocoon, that ensures a win for the Scarlet Spider.
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Scarlet Spider #2
Even in a slugfest between the two, Cap will find it hard to throw a punch while Kaine is encasing him in webbing... While throwing his own punches.
2: Speed
I believe that Kaine is significantly faster than Cap. In my opinion, his speed feats are simply superior to Steve's. Cap has bullet timing feats, yes, but they aren't really comparable to Kaine's. I always see that he was able to quickly move one arm to block tranqs from Hawkeye, he was able to dodge bullets from a computer guided AK-47. While this is all very cool, It isn't bulle timing on Kaine's level. Here he runs into the face of incoming gunfire, and jumps, weaves and dodges his way through dozens of bullets fired from no less than a few feet away.
Scarlet Spider #1
Here the bullets are midair, already fires. He takes down his opponent, does a somersault while holding him, and then uses his arm to thrust him in front of his face to use him as a meat shield all in the time it took the bullets to move a few meters. In comparison, Cap holds his sheild up to his face, kaine does this with a 100+ lbs. man, along with allllllll of that other stuff.
Scarlet Spider #4
He can catch arrows, and dodge bullets with ridiculous ease. He is that fast.
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Scarlet Spider #4
So in conclusion, i believe that not only can Kaine hold his own in a slugfest with Cap using brute strength, but he also has the advantages of invisibility and stealth, piercing weapons, and webbing (for an incap). He also has superior skill showings, allowing him to get in as many hits as he pleases. Using stingers, those are hits that Cap can't take.
Unlike 616 Cap, Ultimate Cap likes gear options. He enjoys military weapons.
He makes good use of them too.
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Caps best gear will always be his trusty Shield! Like 616 he has mad skills with it as well.
These Scans show some crazy feats with it. It has even cut a Helecopter props while the Copter Props wee in flight! His Shield throws knocked throw 5 Multi Toners at a time. Heck Cap even used a Metal Disc to cut thru a Steel Cable!
The Shield doubles as his best Defense against any of Kain's attacks.
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Cap like to use Frag, Gas, Flash Bang and Smoke Grenades.
How are these useful? A well place Flash Bang is very useful. Cap is so accurate with these Grenades that he can hit Wolverines Claws before Wolverine reacts!
Wolverine has incredible Speed reaction feats. Yet Cap times it perfect and accurate from a room away. So with your stingers out and no Spider Sense..... I can see the same thing happening.
Cap also has guns.
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He is adept in the use of Assault Rifles. Always useful to lay down cover fire. Also unlike Pete with Spider Sense, I have not seen the same impressive displays (yet) from Kaine. He could very well get shot.
Another useful pice of gear is Caps Taser. He is not shy to bring one.
Super Human or not, it will lock up the nervous system making openings for follow up attacks. It was powerful enough to shock the Iron Man level Silver Herald.
As for Invisibility a Smoke Grenade can get around that. Cap can pop one and Kaine body will be seen in the smoke. Also Webbing may be possible, however Cap Speed is superhuman fast unlike 616 Caps.
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1) Cap dodges computer targeting AK-47 with no Shield.
2) Cap dodges bullets from Military.
3-5) Reacts and Blocks electricity attacks. He does this again for a Silver Herald.
6) Bullets dodging from 360 degrees.
7) Cap actually reacts and moves faster than the Bullet Tranqs from Hawkeye's guns! Clint clearly fires first and Cap reacts second. Great feat.
8-9) Cap Reacts to Silver Herald Electric attack after it was fired!
All this proves just how fast Cap is. He reacts after the Electricity and Bullets fired. He is easy Reaction Speed wise keeping up with Kaine. Add this to his insane skill and use of tactics.
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1) Cap battle skills and computer hacking showing. This guy been unfrozen for mere months and is already Hacking military CPUs, and understands modern military weapons and tactics.
2) Cap figures a way to beat Hulk without a Nuke on the fly. Fury and the best in SHIELD could not think of these plans on there own.
3) Fury exclaims Cap learns faster than a Computer. He is merely making a joke, Cap shows it.
4) Cap learns to fly a Fighter Jet in less than a month. Big hop from WW2 Prop Planes to Fighter Jets. Especially when most of his time is spent training and working PR jobs, yet he finds the time to operate any vehicle in the military, this takes most TRAIN people weeks of training, Cap learns in minuets with his busy scheduled.
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Caps Tactics is so good, he single handily beaten the entire Vampire Army led by Nerd Hulk in one move! He took all 20 seconds to figure out how to beat the entire Vampire Army. He was a Vampire, snapped out of it, found himself in a warzone, and came up with a solution were all the best minds were freaking out and dying!
Add to all that is Ultimate Caps Morals..... he has none in a fight. If you are out to kill Cap, Cap will kill you twice! He has Low Blow and killed many people. He is not above kicking you in the nuts!
Take that Kaine!
Also Kaine is very strong, so is Cap.
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1) Strength to blow back these Clone Assassins from the shockwave.
2) Curls 1000 pound Dumb Bells like nothing.
3) Pushes Ultimate Spidey to hi limits in a shoving match.
4) Catches a easy 5 ton Pine Tree.
5) Catches Ultimate Valkerie's fist with no problem. She is strong enough to lock up weapons with Thor.
The guy matches Spidey who is a 9-10 toner in feats and Bio.
Now Durability, Kaine has pointy objects, and strength. Cap has proven Super Human Blunt Damage and Healing Factor!
Also unlike 616 Cap, Ultimate Steve best attribute is his Durability. this guy can take a beating like no other.
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1-3) Cap jumps through the Jet Wash of a Ballistic Missile, plants grenades that blow in his face, gets hit by the shock wave of a Atomic Bomb, and then crashes into the icy sea. Still lived frozen till thawed.
4) 100+ toner Abomination crashes on Cap Legs and flings him through a building, no noticeable damage.
5-7) Cap tanks devastating blows from Blood Lusted Hulk. still giving interviews and on his feet.
8) Survives a ramming Iron Man Suit that craters the earth.
9-11) Blocks a hit from Blood Lusted Thor, flew at super speeds through a buildings side, and finally loses enough momentum to crash into wall. He is fine.
One of the best things about Ultimate Cap is his Minor Healing Factor.
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1-2) Heals faster than Bruce Banner calculated. This was after being on Ice for 50+ years.
3) After a brutal beating from Hulk, Cap was still giving interviews.
4) Caps healing factor as per WW2 Scientist. He even cured Vampirism with his Healing Factor. Nerd Hulks Healing Factor could not.
Cap also likes to free fall from Helicopters, planes, and buildings with no fear or injury.
These are not just impressive feats of Durability.... these are low level Wolverine feats of Durability!
Now Kaine manage a lucky win vs Wolverine due to cutting his heart in half. This battle alone will persuad voters Kaine auto wins. I call BS.
Cap while drugged and sedated beat back SHIELD!
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Cap vs SHIELD. This is a great battle as Cap is Tranqed up, fights off Captain Britain suit SHIELD agents, and then takes a Iron Man Suit tackle from hell!
How Tough are these Captain Britain SHIELD Agents.
Strong enough to lift 100+ ton Ballistic Missiles.
Using his superior skill and tactics, as well a host of gear he can win this.
Caps best gear will always be his trusty Shield! Like 616 he has mad skills with it as well.
These Scans show some crazy feats with it. It has even cut a Helecopter props while the Copter Props wee in flight! His Shield throws knocked throw 5 Multi Toners at a time. Heck Cap even used a Metal Disc to cut thru a Steel Cable!
Can you explain to me how Cap is supposed to tag Kaine with the shield? Kaine is your casual bullet timer, and when i say casual, i mean dodging gunfire with absolute ease from highly-trained assassins guild snipers casual.
Scarlet Spider #3
Unless Cap can literally throw his shield faster than a bullet travels, there is little, to no chance of him taggin Kaine.
How are these useful? A well place Flash Bang is very useful. Cap is so accurate with these Grenades that he can hit Wolverines Claws before Wolverine reacts!
Wolverine has incredible Speed reaction feats. Yet Cap times it perfect and accurate from a room away. So with your stingers out and no Spider Sense..... I can see the same thing happening.
You're assuming that Cap will have the drop on Kaine, when in reality Kaine will have the drop on Cap. Kaine uses stealth on a daily basis. He also has a suit that can make him completely invisible at will. How is Cap going to throw a grenade at someone he can't even see? Here he disappears while free falling onto an open road, in plain sight of an entire group of metahuman "heros".
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Scarlet Spider #8
Kaine will have the drop on Cap.
He is adept in the use of Assault Rifles. Always useful to lay down cover fire. Also unlike Pete with Spider Sense, I have not seen the same impressive displays (yet) from Kaine. He could very well get shot.
Ha, No. Kaine has been tagged literally once in his entire run so far, and that is because the gunman fired at him from less than an inch away. Kaine dodges bullets with absolutely ridiculous ease, he has feats that suggest he can move faster than the bullets themselves.
Scarlet Spider #7
If he can dodge machine gun fire from three security guards of roxxon, with literally no effort, while getting someone else out of the way, then how do you expect Cap to even come close to tagging him?
Super Human or not, it will lock up the nervous system making openings for follow up attacks. It was powerful enough to shock the Iron Man level Silver Herald.
Is that even standard gear? Or is it a one time thing?
As for Invisibility a Smoke Grenade can get around that. Cap can pop one and Kaine body will be seen in the smoke.
A valid strategy, but how Cap even know where to throw the grenade? Kaine is completely invisible and silent at will. Is Rodgers the worlds greatest guesser? Kaine can come from anywhere, and exit the general vicinity of the smoked area before the grenade even goes off. I don't see this working all too well.
Scarlet Spider #17
Kaine can come from literally anywhere. The possibility of an ambush is very high.
Also Webbing may be possible, however Cap Speed is superhuman fast unlike 616 Caps.
All this proves just how fast Cap is. He reacts after the Electricity and Bullets fired. He is easy Reaction Speed wise keeping up with Kaine. Add this to his insane skill and use of tactics.
I still don't see him being as fast as Kaine. Blocking lighting attacks is sketchy, as we have a pretty good idea how fast Cap is. He does not have light speed perceptions. It is either a result of aim dodging, or dodging the attack on reflex. In that case, Kaine still has the superior speed feats. Here, he dodges a lighting attack. In comparison, Cap has to move one arm a small distance to block the attack with his sheild. Kaine actually moves his entire body to dodge out of the way.
Scarlet Spider #8
I also still haven't seen a bullet timing feat from Cap that can match the two I have showed you in my last post.
I can show you bullet timing feats all day, that probably outclass all of Rodger's feats. However, i can also show you combat-applicable feats. Has Cap ever moved faster than a speedster? Kaine has. In a head on clash, he not only dodges the speedsters blow, but he also cuts the poor guys leg off.
How will Cap deal with someone that can move faster than a speedster does?
Caps Tactics is so good, he single handily beaten the entire Vampire Army led by Nerd Hulk in one move! He took all 20 seconds to figure out how to beat the entire Vampire Army. He was a Vampire, snapped out of it, found himself in a warzone, and came up with a solution were all the best minds were freaking out and dying!
The Vampire army wasn't that impressive. Outlasting a vampire opponent until the sun comes up has been done... many times. Out of all of the tactical feats you have showed me, the only combat applicable feat is 3. However, Cap has no knowledge on Kaine, he has no idea what his powers are.
Add to all that is Ultimate Caps Morals..... he has none in a fight. If you are out to kill Cap, Cap will kill you twice! He has Low Blow and killed many people. He is not above kicking you in the nuts!
Morals aren't that much of an issue in this fight, at all. It is fairly evident that both of them have very little moral boundaries. Cap will have no problem killing Kaine, while Kaine will have no problem killing Cap.
Scarlet Spider #4
As you can see, Kaine will have no problem killing Cap. He has no problem with stabbing his opponents and tossing them off of skyscrapers.
Also Kaine is very strong, so is Cap.
I have already stated that they both have an immense amount of brute strength like when Kaine tore off the Jaw of a 20 foot tall, 100 ton monster in the micro verse. I have also already stated that pure strength is probably not why Kaine wins this fight, it's just always goo to know that he can match Cap easily in terms of brute strength.
Venom #26
This is a guy that gave Carnage, of all people a beatdown due to pure strength.
Now Durability, Kaine has pointy objects, and strength. Cap has proven Super Human Blunt Damage and Healing Factor!
Also unlike 616 Cap, Ultimate Steve best attribute is his Durability. this guy can take a beating like no other.
As i stated previously, Cap sure does have some great durability. However, it i great durability in terms of blunt-force. Bullets chew through his skin, he has very little durability against piercing/cutting weapons. Kaine has both. If Kaine shoves a Stinger into Steve's heart. That's it for him. He doesn't have a healing factor sufficient enough to allow him to come back from that.
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Scarlet Spider #17
Here are some other examples of the attacks that Kaine uses on a daily basis, that allow him to drop Cap in one or two hits. Here, he punches through a vulked-out Venom's jaw. Venom spits out bullets like they are nothing, he has arguably better durability feats than Cap.
Scarlet Spider #10
Or, Slicing Carnage's face off (temporarily). I have already explained how durable Carnage is. Bullets have literally no effect on him. He can take all out blows from class 20+ opponents and not even feel the hit.
Scarlet Spider #11
In conclusion, Kaine can get into a slugfest with Cap, he can take quite a beating before going down. Steve on the other hand, can't. Kaine has all the advantages he needs to win this fight.
Can you explain to me how Cap is supposed to tag Kaine with the shield? Kaine is your casual bullet timer, and when i say casual, i mean dodging gunfire with absolute ease from highly-trained assassins guild snipers casual.
Unless Cap can literally throw his shield faster than a bullet travels, there is little, to no chance of him taggin Kaine.
Cap Shield Throw Speed?
Cap throws a Blunt edge Sewer Cover (Sewer Covers are HEAVY as Hell) and cuts thru a High Grade and Thick Steel Chain that is made to hold 50 tons of Pipping! That Blunt Heavy Sewer Cap is must be moving at extreme speeds for such.
Moving at unbelievable speed to cut through the Rotating blades without being knocked away!
So yeah, I say it is as fast as a Bullet.
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Excellent showing. Cap moves SO FAST with his body and Shield it takes out this Viet Cong Veteran before he could react. Then bounces around while Cap is fighting to take out another guy who is Hidden. Meaning Cap planed that ricochet.
Yeah, he should tag Kaine who has no "Spider Sense" Key word in quotes.
You're assuming that Cap will have the drop on Kaine, when in reality Kaine will have the drop on Cap. Kaine uses stealth on a daily basis. He also has a suit that can make him completely invisible at will. How is Cap going to throw a grenade at someone he can't even see? Here he disappears while free falling onto an open road, in plain sight of an entire group of metahuman "heros".
Kaine will have the drop on Cap.
I doubt it for many good reasons.
1) Cap has Smoke Grenades, Kaine moving through the smoke is a dead give away.
2) Cap has INCREDIBLE awareness. Let me prove it. I just showed these scans, yet here they are again.
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Scan 1) Cap is being followed and knows it right from the start, Sniper in the Tree, Cap Tags him with ease.
Scan 2) Cap bounces his Shield in a way that it takes out the Guy who was perfectly camouflage, Cap saw that in a glance of the area, and the Shield comes back at such Timing of Cap taking out the Viet Cong.
Scan 3) Viet Cong in a underground Tunnel gets sensed by Cap who drags him out after the fight is over!
Cap has INCREDIBLE Awarness and knows in advance where a attack may likely come from. This is a combination of Super Human senses (Everything about Ultimate Cap is Super from a normal human) and his brilliance in combat (Combination of Skill and Tactics) which is display here.
3) Cap being followed by the Best Spies and Assassins, he knows right away that Shield finally caught up with him and traps the combination of the BEST IN THE WORLD at Spying and Subterfuge.
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He Ambushes all of them. His awareness and use of "How I would attack me" approach is second to none.
4) Cap is in most feats is outnumbered in his fights more often than not.
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Cap takes on the train A.I.M. (Ex Special Forces in Ultimate Universe) and always planning and countering the attacks and gunshots he cannot see behind him.
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Cap after swimming 5 miles of see and against the current, Cap reaches and attacks a whole terrorist city. A whole city, Black Hawk Down style. RPGs, Bullets, and hundreds of foes attacking him at once from all directions. Yet not a single shot lands on Cap due to his superior use of skill and knowing where the next attack will likely come from.
Stealth works great on less aware foes. Cap Feats of Awareness, Knowing already Kaines next move, and use of Smoke Grenades is a good, no, Excellent counter to Kaine's stealth. Add to this the perfect defense, Caps shield, and Kaine has less options of attack avenues. As soon as Kaine attacks he de stealths anyway, it is in all his battles. So Cap avoids the first swing and then Kaine is all his. With Smoke and the feats I showed it is likely Cap can counter any stealth attack.
Ha, No. Kaine has been tagged literally once in his entire run so far, and that is because the gunman fired at him from less than an inch away. Kaine dodges bullets with absolutely ridiculous ease, he has feats that suggest he can move faster than the bullets themselves.
If he can dodge machine gun fire from three security guards of roxxon, with literally no effort, while getting someone else out of the way, then how do you expect Cap to even come close to tagging him?
Cap may not tag him. What is the purpose to fire a gun? In this case to FORCE Scarlet Spider into defense. Into Dodging and moving where Cap wants him.
Since I been in the military, it is a common thing to force a enemy into a direction with Gunfire whether you hit them or not. As Kaine shows when being fired at he is force to dodge.
Cap can use this. Cap would use this to his advantage. Since by the feats shown Cap is proven to think and move faster than AK 47 Rounds, near Mach 2, Cap can easily keep up with Kaine and predict where to force Kaine to by Gunfire.
Is that even standard gear? Or is it a one time thing?
I think it is standard, my grandmother has a Taser, why not Cap? He used it as proof to lock up Silver Herald. Batman once use a Magnetic Batarang, yet in Standard gear he is considered to have it. There is no reason why Cap should not be able to have and carry a everyday Taser. I see Cap using it on a Spider Man(ish) foe.
A valid strategy, but how Cap even know where to throw the grenade? Kaine is completely invisible and silent at will. Is Rodgers the worlds greatest guesser? Kaine can come from anywhere, and exit the general vicinity of the smoked area before the grenade even goes off. I don't see this working all too well.
Kaine can come from literally anywhere. The possibility of an ambush is very high.
Show me valid feats those Guild guys are even HALF as good as the feats I posted for Steve above. Or have the tactics to no where to pop one. Also Cap carries more than one grenade as shown. He has a huge belt with pouches and in the photo above my top post, he has many Grenades. He also uses more than one Grenade before as well.
So how about 2-3 Smokes all Around?
I still don't see him being as fast as Kaine. Blocking lighting attacks is sketchy, as we have a pretty good idea how fast Cap is. He does not have light speed perceptions. It is either a result of aim dodging, or dodging the attack on reflex. In that case, Kaine still has the superior speed feats. Here, he dodges a lighting attack. In comparison, Cap has to move one arm a small distance to block the attack with his sheild. Kaine actually moves his entire body to dodge out of the way.
Electricity is nowhere near light speed. looking at maybe best 1/50th lightspeed. Hardly close to calling it sketchy.
Also your scan looks flat put that the Electric Guy miss. Kaine is faster than that guys perception, not faster than Electricity.
Big difference.
I also still haven't seen a bullet timing feat from Cap that can match the two I have showed you in my last post.
Say whaaaaat?
Cap dodges and weaves thru a ENTIRE AK 47 Assault Rifle fired by Tony Starks targeting computer. Clearly faster than the bullets.
Reacts to Ultimate Hawkeyes gun fire AFTER it was shot at him. Cap not only moves and block AFTER the shots were fired, he did it in such a way to deflect them back at Hawkeye. On top all of this Hawkeye is by far Bullseye level in accuracy and has super human speed factor in movement. Cap reacts to this Bullseye accurate being with super human speed movement (Twitch factor) who is within 15 feet after Hawkeye fires the bullets.
It does not get more faster than Bullet speed reaction, thinking, and execution than that! More solid than Kaine jumping around like Dare Devil style which all common Street Levelers do in feats.
Everything about Ultimate Cap is "Super Human" not enhance like 616 Steve, Super Human.
I can show you bullet timing feats all day, that probably outclass all of Rodger's feats. However, i can also show you combat-applicable feats. Has Cap ever moved faster than a speedster? Kaine has. In a head on clash, he not only dodges the speedsters blow, but he also cuts the poor guys leg off.
How will Cap deal with someone that can move faster than a speedster does?
First off how fast is that Speedster? Is he faster than Human Perception? Does not look it. Faster than Quicksilver? Do not see it there.
Cap has speed wise kept up with guys like Black Panther, Wolverine, Saber Tooth, Hawkeye, Nuke, Abdule, Thor, and the Ultron clone Venom who all have establish levels of super human (Not peak, super human) Speed.
Wanna see a example?
Black Panther was made by Weapon X to be as awesome as Wolverine is. Minus the super Healing Factor.
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Black Pnather in Scan 7 is portrayed using that speed. cap counters and tests BP, yet BP clearly could not land a blow after hours of attacking. Cap then easily finishes the fight.
Just one example. How about Cap being so fast that he blocks a Blood Lusted Zarda strike?
Zarda is equal to Hyperion in all stats, she is a female Hyperion to be blunt. Cap moves so fast to keep her from delivering a intended no hold back kill stroke, she never holds back. Also a Strength/Durability feat here too!
The Vampire army wasn't that impressive. Outlasting a vampire opponent until the sun comes up has been done... many times. Out of all of the tactical feats you have showed me, the only combat applicable feat is 3. However, Cap has no knowledge on Kaine, he has no idea what his powers are.
.................... I think you miss understand the feat.............
All of the Shield was Burning and being destroyed. A whole army of tacticly and veteran SHIELD and Avenger team mates were getting decimated. Cap Coming out of being a vampire, looks around in confusion, sees what is happening, and ends the WHOLE BATTLE with a Teleport to Iraq where the Sun id Shining! No one though of this in the whole battle but Cap who took all 3 seconds!
Read that last part again? So why is this not a feat of Tactics?
How about when Cap single handily by himself figure the best way to beat Red Skull with a cosmic cube.
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Cap was in the battle for all 1 minuet and beat the Cosmic Cube wielding Red Skull!
How about Cap single handily figuring out how to beat Hulk in a RANDOM BATTLE with no prep!
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Or how about Cap putting down Hulk? He beat Hulk with strategy.
How did 616 Cap beat hulk again?
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He didnt. He was lucky Mindless Savage was dying! His best tactic was "Throw more 100 toners at him, DOG PILE!"
So I guess this is further evidence of Ultimate Cap skill and tactics? Cap is clearly the superior fighter here in skill and tactics to win.
Morals aren't that much of an issue in this fight, at all. It is fairly evident that both of them have very little moral boundaries. Cap will have no problem killing Kaine, while Kaine will have no problem killing Cap.
As you can see, Kaine will have no problem killing Cap. He has no problem with stabbing his opponents and tossing them off of skyscrapers.
And Cap cuts people in half!
As well decapitates you with a smile lol!
I have already stated that they both have an immense amount of brute strength like when Kaine tore off the Jaw of a 20 foot tall, 100 ton monster in the micro verse. I have also already stated that pure strength is probably not why Kaine wins this fight, it's just always goo to know that he can match Cap easily in terms of brute strength.
This is a guy that gave Carnage, of all people a beatdown due to pure strength.
Not really he is 20 toner at best. Cap luaghs at 20 toners. He Ko Juggernaut twice with one move each time!
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This is Ultimate Juggernaut, a 100+ toner who easily rough shot Ultimate Colossus (Ultimate Peter > 616 version) and tanks his own punches from Rogue after being weaken with ease.
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Cap KOes Juggy with a Kick to the head.
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Cap KOes this guy with a Shield Strike. As seen Juggernaut (100+ toner) wails on Cap, then a 30 ton Dinosaur knock Juggy down, Cap with Shield and breathing room KOes Juggs with a single hit.
Cap put Ultimate Hulk down! I just posted the whole fight above of how superior Hulk was to Thor, Giant Man, and Iron Man. Cap did this much with a few strikes!
As i stated previously, Cap sure does have some great durability. However, it i great durability in terms of blunt-force. Bullets chew through his skin, he has very little durability against piercing/cutting weapons. Kaine has both. If Kaine shoves a Stinger into Steve's heart. That's it for him. He doesn't have a healing factor sufficient enough to allow him to come back from that.
Here are some other examples of the attacks that Kaine uses on a daily basis, that allow him to drop Cap in one or two hits. Here, he punches through a vulked-out Venom's jaw. Venom spits out bullets like they are nothing, he has arguably better durability feats than Cap.
Or, Slicing Carnage's face off (temporarily). I have already explained how durable Carnage is. Bullets have literally no effect on him. He can take all out blows from class 20+ opponents and not even feel the hit.
In conclusion, Kaine can get into a slugfest with Cap, he can take quite a beating before going down. Steve on the other hand, can't. Kaine has all the advantages he needs to win this fight.
Here it is, the real argument. Web Incap is not really a option as a argument because Kaine used it once and only to get Info it seems. He rather fight straight up and loses his cool in battle like with Wolverine! Its a fact that Kaine gets into a tunnel vision zone in combat.
So he has sharp Bone spikes. I guess that one fight with Wolverine is all the proof one needs. I guess both fights with p!$$ poor fighters (Carnage and Venom) makes this a done deal.
Wrong. This is where Cap easily shines in this fight, he is by far the better fighter.
Cap vs Nuke.
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Nukes background. Nuke was the best train Marine they have and was already peak human before the Operations.
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Cap first battle with Nuke. Cap fights a guy who has been fighting and been around longer than Cap himself, like Cap Nuke was given the best training and been in a constant war zone after war zone. Cap is also mentally defeated here, before fighting Nuke Cap was questioning himself and own purpose being alive, Cap was in a depression when Nuke fought him!
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Cap vs Viet Cong ambush.
After Cap gets taken down by a whole village of Super Soldiers made by Nuke, Cap is tortured for a week straight with no food, water, and Pints of blood drained everyday.
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Then when Nuke made it clear he was through with Cap, cap finds a venomous snake and sucks the poison into his mouth.
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Then he spits it in Nukes eyes and beats him down in this weak as hell condition once his head was in the game and Cap wanted to live!
All examples of Durability, Healing Factor, and Skill.
Cap vs Russian Cap.
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Cap vs a Russian Super Soldier who been fighting a Prison full of monsters for 60+ years. Him and the inmates were all cyborgs made with the super advance Vision body parts. Yet Cap easily beat the most experience and best Russia had!
Cap vs Abdule.
Now the Epic Cap vs Liberation Battle. All this happens within a few hours.
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Cap vs Schizo Man. Schizo Man has Mutiple Mans powers and picks a fight with a Tranquilized Cap.
Then after being freed Abomination tackles him.
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Cap vs Abdul. Cap in pretty rough shape fights a exact copy of himself thanks to Loki's magic. Cap wins. Cap then goes onto fighting Loki's Troll army lol.
This is the greatness of Cap healing factor, durability, and flat out skill! Abdul has a dual Light Saber of all things, Cap beats that with superior skill and it take like 6 Captain Britain suit wearing bad guys to hold Cap down!
Cap Skill is by far superior to Kaine who never has extreme training in any superior fighting art (Like way of the Spider) or possess a Spider Sense which helps Peter with most fights vs Skilled fighters. His whole battle with Logan was base around Wolverine jobbing and a plot device of cutting his heart in two. Cap has proven time and again he has the Super Human stats to keep up with a Spider Man foe, and the top skill in Ultimate Universe as well.
Here is more food for thought. Most people see Spider Man beating Ultimate Cap due to Way of the Spider, Web Incap, and Spider Sense. Kaine has none of that. No Spider Sense, he used Web Incap once and that was to finish a fight without killing the guy for plot, and he has no real High Tier street Cred training or battles with most skill in Marvel. His best is a one off fight with Wolverine who was down by a heart cut (even tho Wolverine has suffered far worse without being KO, PIS perhaps?)
Major Point Here
Also in this "Random" fight Scarlet Spider knows only 616 Cap. He may mistaken Ultimate Cap as near same when Ultimate Cap is by far Superior. Meanwhile Ultimate Cap has already trained Miles (aka Ultimate Spider Man) and locked up with Peter (aka Spider Man) in the Ultimate verse. He knows what he is up against and where Kaines strengths are. Kaine has a stealth suit, so what? Miles does too and Cap trains Miles! What about Stingers? Cap fought skilled fighters with Light Sabers, Adamanitum Claws (Wolverine twice and Saber Tooth once!), and Asgardian Swords!
Nothing Kaine is bringing to the table Cap has not encountered or beaten.
Cap throws a Blunt edge Sewer Cover (Sewer Covers are HEAVY as Hell) and cuts thru a High Grade and Thick Steel Chain that is made to hold 50 tons of Pipping! That Blunt Heavy Sewer Cap is must be moving at extreme speeds for such.
Extreme speeds? Yes. As fast as a bullet? Probably not.
Moving at unbelievable speed to cut through the Rotating blades without being knocked away!
I might have actually believed that this feat was indeed a showing of the shield being thrown as fast as a bullet. However, the shield cuts through the middle of the propeller, It does not cut through the blade of the chopper. it doesn't actually have a good chance of being knocked away, just judging by the place that it hit.
Excellent showing. Cap moves SO FAST with his body and Shield it takes out this Viet Cong Veteran before he could react. Then bounces around while Cap is fighting to take out another guy who is Hidden. Meaning Cap planed that ricochet.
Yeah, he should tag Kaine who has no "Spider Sense" Key word in quotes.
Despite Kaine's lack of a spider sense, he is able to easily make up for it due to his speed and enhanced senses. Here, he catches an arrow that was fired at him behind within inches of his face. Catching an arrow is much harder than dodging a shield.
Scarlet Spider #4
The soft sound of a firing arrow makes a lot less noise in comparison to a loud metal shield bouncing off of an object. It is fair to say that Cap won't be hitting Kaine with any ricochet's either.
Cap has INCREDIBLE Awarness and knows in advance where a attack may likely come from. This is a combination of Super Human senses (Everything about Ultimate Cap is Super from a normal human) and his brilliance in combat (Combination of Skill and Tactics) which is display here.
They are "hiding" in plain sight. he is being followed by two men that haven't bothered to actually visually hide themselves. On top of that, the gunman is lying in a tree, completely exposed, completely visible. Im almost certain that the likes of Hellen Keller would be able to spot this attack coming.
He Ambushes all of them. His awareness and use of "How I would attack me" approach is second to none.
Impressive, but irrelevant, Kaine will be moving around with an invisible suit on, how on earth is Cap going to ambush him?
Stealth works great on less aware foes. Cap Feats of Awareness, Knowing already Kaines next move, and use of Smoke Grenades is a good, no, Excellent counter to Kaine's stealth. Add to this the perfect defense, Caps shield, and Kaine has less options of attack avenues. As soon as Kaine attacks he de stealths anyway, it is in all his battles. So Cap avoids the first swing and then Kaine is all his. With Smoke and the feats I showed it is likely Cap can counter any stealth attack.
No, he can't it doesn't matter if he has enhanced senses, or a great tactical mind, there is still no way he can anticipate an attack from Kaine. Let me explain. The stealth suit is made out of omni-harmonic mesh, designed to bed waves of light and sound. That means, while wearing the suit, Kaine is completely invisible, completely silent, and impervious to sonic attacks (irrelevant but still).
Amazing Spider Man #650
So, Cap can't use his sense of sight to find Kaine. Cap can't use his sense of hearing to find Kaine. What is he going to use? Smell? Unless he has the worlds most powerful nose, there is no way that he is ever going to spot Kaine once he pops into stealth mode to cloak himself.
He can, and will cloak himself in fight if he needs to. He does it here, after he realizes that he stands no chance against the telepathic alien on the Rangers. It's not like he will always exit stealth mode once the fight commences.
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Scarlet Spider #8
He does it here against the Assassins Guild.
So much for never cloaking himself in fight.
Cap may not tag him. What is the purpose to fire a gun? In this case to FORCE Scarlet Spider into defense. Into Dodging and moving where Cap wants him.
Since I been in the military, it is a common thing to force a enemy into a direction with Gunfire whether you hit them or not. As Kaine shows when being fired at he is force to dodge.
Cap can use this. Cap would use this to his advantage. Since by the feats shown Cap is proven to think and move faster than AK 47 Rounds, near Mach 2, Cap can easily keep up with Kaine and predict where to force Kaine to by Gunfire.
That simply won't work. Kaine doesn't back away from a target shooting a gun at him, nor does he move out of the way of the firing (besides dodging the bullet). Cap won't be able to set anything up on Kaine using a gun. That tactic really didn't work when the assassins guild sniper tried it.
Scarlet Spider #3
The 3 machine guns the the Roxxon security guards wielded didn't do a very good job at both killing Kaine, and making him move in a beneficial direction. Didn't do a good job at all.
Scarlet Spider #7
That tactic simply won't work on Kaine.
I think it is standard, my grandmother has a Taser, why not Cap? He used it as proof to lock up Silver Herald. Batman once use a Magnetic Batarang, yet in Standard gear he is considered to have it. There is no reason why Cap should not be able to have and carry a everyday Taser. I see Cap using it on a Spider Man(ish) foe.
Remember our Deathstroke vs Ultimate Cap debate? (good one) Slade's blast staff was ruled out due to the fact that it was only used one time. I don't see why the same logic wouldn't apply here.
Show me valid feats those Guild guys are even HALF as good as the feats I posted for Steve above. Or have the tactics to no where to pop one. Also Cap carries more than one grenade as shown. He has a huge belt with pouches and in the photo above my top post, he has many Grenades. He also uses more than one Grenade before as well.
So how about 2-3 Smokes all Around?
They got the drop on classic Kaine, who had a spider sense that bordered on complete precog. Kaine isn't dumb. It is easy to less the smoke diffuse into the rest of the air and then move in for an attack.
Electricity is nowhere near light speed. looking at maybe best 1/50th lightspeed. Hardly close to calling it sketchy.
Also your scan looks flat put that the Electric Guy miss. Kaine is faster than that guys perception, not faster than Electricity.
Big difference.
Actually, in the panel before that, he goes wide eyed because he sees the attack coming. Then he dodges it. Seems like a valid speed feat to me, just as Cap's are.
Scarlet Spider #8
He can actually see the attack coming and get out the way.
Cap dodges and weaves thru a ENTIRE AK 47 Assault Rifle fired by Tony Starks targeting computer. Clearly faster than the bullets.
The problem I have with this feat, is that it is not confirmed bullet timing. You really can't tell if he is actually dodging the bullets, or dodging the computer shooting the bullets. it is roughly comparable to this feat here, where it is shown that Kaine is aim dodging an entire machine gun clip while midair.
Scarlet Spider #5
Both of these feats are aim dodging, you cannot confidently confirm that Cap or Kaine are confidently dodging the bullets. You can confirm that they are dodging the aim of the gunman. Cap's feat of seemingly aim dodging a computer targeted AK is not comparable to Kaine being able to jump/weave and dodge through a volley of bullets, clearly moving after they have been fired.
Scarlet Spider #1
I really like the Hawkeye feat, it is a very impressive showing of speed. in that scan, he is actually moving as fast/faster than the bullets. Like i said before, however, Kaine does this with 100-200 lbs. men, taking them down, somersaulting and then turning around in the process.
Scarlet Spider #4
Kaine most certainly has better bullet timing feats.
First off how fast is that Speedster? Is he faster than Human Perception? Does not look it. Faster than Quicksilver? Do not see it there.
Faster than human perception, he was able to hit people without them even knowing it, they actually thought it was wind.
Black Pnather in Scan 7 is portrayed using that speed. cap counters and tests BP, yet BP clearly could not land a blow after hours of attacking. Cap then easily finishes the fight.
I don't see it, it looks like he beats the crap out of him in scan 8.
Zarda is equal to Hyperion in all stats, she is a female Hyperion to be blunt. Cap moves so fast to keep her from delivering a intended no hold back kill stroke, she never holds back. Also a Strength/Durability feat here too!
Impressive, but in terms of combat speed, i still believe that Kaine is faster. I have already showed you him moving faster than a speedster. How about Venom? Venom was able to fight Kraven at speeds much faster than the human eye can follow. He was also able to dodge bullets while drugged out of his mind. In Kaine's fight with Flash, he temporarily blitzes him with punches until he is grabbed by the hand.
Scarlet Spider #10
He is simply that fast.
So I guess this is further evidence of Ultimate Cap skill and tactics? Cap is clearly the superior fighter here in skill and tactics to win.
Alright, so its impressive. However, it will not really help him in this fight. He is not going to find any magic weaknesses to exploit on Kaine, he has none. He certainly won't find a fighter jet or Thor's hammer. In reality, being a tactician is only beneficial when it is on Deathstroke's level or higher. Being able to know your opponents moves before you make them is what makes tactical minds so great in a fight. Unfortunately for cap, he simply isn't there yet.
Im going to Ignore those strength feats, i have already admitted that Cap is no doubt a beast. Also, how Kaine is the one that uses piercing weapons that can easily put Cap down, as he has no piercing/cutting durability.
Here it is, the real argument. Web Incap is not really a option as a argument because Kaine used it once and only to get Info it seems. He rather fight straight up and loses his cool in battle like with Wolverine! Its a fact that Kaine gets into a tunnel vision zone in combat.
He uses web incap here, not to get info, to KO a strong opponent. Like i said before, how will Cap throw punches when he is getting webbed up and beaten at the same time?
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Scarlet Spider #2
Web incap is a perfectly reasonable option for Kaine, and something that is very hard to block, even with a shield. What will Cap do if Kaine webs up his eyes? If Steve can't see, Kaine can happily beat the hiving hell out of him without the stealth suit on. Here he uses webs to cut off the vision of both beast and iceman, an omega level mutant.
Scarlet Spider #17
Like I have previously stated, Web incap is completely feasible.
So he has sharp Bone spikes. I guess that one fight with Wolverine is all the proof one needs. I guess both fights with p!$$ poor fighters (Carnage and Venom) makes this a done deal.
Seems like a rather poor claim in my opinion. They are far from being piss poor fighters. Carnage is a killing machine, easily able to take one Peter Parker and Eddie Brock Venom at the same time. People all the way from the micro verse have stated that he kills like no one else they have ever seen. Flash Thompson has years of high-level military experience and combat training. So much so, that he has been able to Fight opponents as skilled a Kraven the hunter, while moving faster than the human eye can follow.
Venom #2 (I think)
I don't see how you can call either a piss poor fighter.
Cap Skill is by far superior to Kaine who never has extreme training in any superior fighting art (Like way of the Spider) or possess a Spider Sense which helps Peter with most fights vs Skilled fighters. His whole battle with Logan was base around Wolverine jobbing and a plot device of cutting his heart in two. Cap has proven time and again he has the Super Human stats to keep up with a Spider Man foe, and the top skill in Ultimate Universe as well.
To be honest, Cap probably does have superior skill showings to Kaine. Yet Kaine does not lack anything in this department at all. He has developed his own fighting style, which is seemingly a more brutal form of the way of the spider. He uses his superhuman stats so skillfully that he completely dominated Wolverine in their fight, who, actually has better skill showings than the majority of the Ultimate universe.
I haves stated several times by now, skill isn't why Kaine wins this fight. He wins because he has the gear, speed and strength to pull off a majority.
Here is more food for thought. Most people see Spider Man beating Ultimate Cap due to Way of the Spider, Web Incap, and Spider Sense. Kaine has none of that.
This is fairly irrelevant, as Kaine has several other advantages that 616-peter doesn't. For one, he is way more brutal, he is able to cross the line and has no problem killing or not holding back. He has a stealth suit, and doesn't mind sucker punching his opponents, he has stingers, which can be used to stab and cut people (something Peter would basically never do.)
No Spider Sense, he used Web Incap once and that was to finish a fight without killing the guy for plot
Please read the issue before you label something as a plot element. He webbed the guy up to incapacitate him from using his human-torch like powers. He didn't use webs not to kill the guy, Kaine was in the process of killing him when he heard cheering, as it was in the beginning of when people began calling him a hero.
Scarlet Spider #2
I'm not sure how you can label the webbing incap as a plot device at all. He used it as a tactic to beat a powerful opponent, he didn't kill him because of the fact that he was being sheered for.
and he has no real High Tier street Cred training or battles with most skill in Marvel. His best is a one off fight with Wolverine who was down by a heart cut (even tho Wolverine has suffered far worse without being KO, PIS perhaps?)
He beat Wolverine fair and square, who has superior skill showings to a majority of the ultimate crowd. About the Wolverine incident. Let me tell you this, it is a known fact that Logan needs oxygen to survive, despite his healing factor.
Uncanny X-Force #33
Do you study human anatomy? Oxygen is delivered to the cells via. the bloodstream, the heart pumps the blood all through out the body through powerful arteries. Kaine cut his heart in two, that means he cut Logan's Pulmonary arteries and Aorta, not to mention the atrium and ventricles. If you cut the two largest arteries in the body, located in the heart, Oxygen has now way of diffusing through the capillaries in to your cells, therefore, you can't survive. Logan can heal from this, yes, but is in no way PIS that he was dropped from that attack.
Also in this "Random" fight Scarlet Spider knows only 616 Cap. He may mistaken Ultimate Cap as near same when Ultimate Cap is by far Superior. Meanwhile Ultimate Cap has already trained Miles (aka Ultimate Spider Man) and locked up with Peter (aka Spider Man) in the Ultimate verse. He knows what he is up against and where Kaines strengths are. Kaine has a stealth suit, so what? Miles does too and Cap trains Miles! What about Stingers? Cap fought skilled fighters with Light Sabers, Adamanitum Claws (Wolverine twice and Saber Tooth once!), and Asgardian Swords!
you admitted it yourself in your last argument, Kaine is nothing like the normal Spidermen, and does not share their strengths. I take it you don't want to contradict yourself. From what i know, Steve has never fought anyone like Kaine, nor will he, unless they face off in a 616/Ultimate crossover (which would be amazing to be honest.)
I'm sticking with my original post here, i have still seen little to suggest that Kaine can't sneak up on Cap, and sucker punch him in one strike. Plain and simple, i think that if Kaine takes this fight seriously, Cap ends up like this Assassin/Ninja.
@cadencev2 Anyways man, thats about the best you'll get from me argument wise, if you want to make a closer, cool, but I'm ready to start voting whenever you are. It's been fun, thanks for a great debate!
Extreme speeds? Yes. As fast as a bullet? Probably not.
Lets see how fast and powerful a Shield Throw is.
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This is Assemble. He is a Super Cyborg with the Powers of Hulk, Thor, Cap, and Giant Man. Made by Magneto.
Cap cuts his head off with his Shield. This guy beaten down Iceman, Jean, and Juggernaut empowered Rogue. Cap Shield toss cuts Assembles Head off.
That is Speed. You need mass Speed for such a feat.
You can see in the scan the cut through Rotary Blade, showing its speed was enough to cut the swinging Rotary Blade without being knocked away. Also to cut through the Engine... a engine!
look at your Car Engine and make it twice as large. Cap Shield was so fast in momentum to cut that through!
Despite Kaine's lack of a spider sense, he is able to easily make up for it due to his speed and enhanced senses. Here, he catches an arrow that was fired at him behind within inches of his face. Catching an arrow is much harder than dodging a shield.
The soft sound of a firing arrow makes a lot less noise in comparison to a loud metal shield bouncing off of an object. It is fair to say that Cap won't be hitting Kaine with any ricochet's either.
However unlike that scan, the Shield is faster and Cap is firing bullets or H2H with Kaine giving him no time to react to the swish sound of the Shield.
They are "hiding" in plain sight. he is being followed by two men that haven't bothered to actually visually hide themselves. On top of that, the gunman is lying in a tree, completely exposed, completely visible. Im almost certain that the likes of Hellen Keller would be able to spot this attack coming.
So the guy under ground and the guy in a camo fox hole is plain sight? If they are so easy to spot, then why ole why America lost thousands of Marines in Vietnam to Ambushes?
Impressive, but irrelevant, Kaine will be moving around with an invisible suit on, how on earth is Cap going to ambush him?
No, he in turn is not being ambushed.
No, he can't it doesn't matter if he has enhanced senses, or a great tactical mind, there is still no way he can anticipate an attack from Kaine. Let me explain. The stealth suit is made out of omni-harmonic mesh, designed to bed waves of light and sound. That means, while wearing the suit, Kaine is completely invisible, completely silent, and impervious to sonic attacks (irrelevant but still).
So, Cap can't use his sense of sight to find Kaine. Cap can't use his sense of hearing to find Kaine. What is he going to use? Smell? Unless he has the worlds most powerful nose, there is no way that he is ever going to spot Kaine once he pops into stealth mode to cloak himself.
So says you. I showed all the proof for Cap why it will not work. Also once Kaine decloaks, it is over.
He can, and will cloak himself in fight if he needs to. He does it here, after he realizes that he stands no chance against the telepathic alien on the Rangers. It's not like he will always exit stealth mode once the fight commences.
He does it here against the Assassins Guild.
So much for never cloaking himself in fight.
So much for it does not matter when Cap has Smoke popped everywhere, shield to protect a whole side of his body, super tactical mind to predict attacks, and still has superhuman awareness and senses.
Also ANY of those guys have awareness feats of any kind? No? Cap does.
That simply won't work. Kaine doesn't back away from a target shooting a gun at him, nor does he move out of the way of the firing (besides dodging the bullet). Cap won't be able to set anything up on Kaine using a gun. That tactic really didn't work when the assassins guild sniper tried it.
The 3 machine guns the the Roxxon security guards wielded didn't do a very good job at both killing Kaine, and making him move in a beneficial direction. Didn't do a good job at all.
That tactic simply won't work on Kaine.
LOL all these showings are from canon fodder with no feats. Cap been using guns forever and all the feats prove exactly what I been saying, it forces Kaine to dodge and avoid the shots. Cap also has waaaaay faster reaction time and combat speed.
He can aim and predict better than any of those scans you showed.
Remember our Deathstroke vs Ultimate Cap debate? (good one) Slade's blast staff was ruled out due to the fact that it was only used one time. I don't see why the same logic wouldn't apply here.
sorry, nice try, the Blast staff is a unique piece of gear that is not real. It was a one time showing. Caps Taser can be bought at a pawn shop, standar gear in the military and law enforcement, and he has used it.
It is standard for sure.
They got the drop on classic Kaine, who had a spider sense that bordered on complete precog. Kaine isn't dumb. It is easy to less the smoke diffuse into the rest of the air and then move in for an attack.
So Kaine is avoiding all this smoke and hiding like a little girl? He hides like a little girl now?
I see Kaine proving time and again to go for the attack, even when stealth. He seems to attack, attack, attack in every scan you show. seems out of character to hide like a little girl. Plus he is not very well known for tactics since his Classic and Current days.
Does not really matter either way. Cap has more than one Grenade and one smoke Grenade can light a whole 100 feet square feet up. So Cap pops one and after 5 minuets it is fading pops another. Kaine is not hiding for half a hour, he never showed that in any battle, so not in character.
Actually, in the panel before that, he goes wide eyed because he sees the attack coming. Then he dodges it. Seems like a valid speed feat to me, just as Cap's are.
He can actually see the attack coming and get out the way.
So that makes them roughly even, however the guy firing lightning is still not same in speed of Cap at all.
Speed of Cap + Accuracy = Harder to dodge for Kaine. That is simple math.
Cap dodges and weaves thru a ENTIRE AK 47 Assault Rifle fired by Tony Starks targeting computer. Clearly faster than the bullets.
The problem I have with this feat, is that it is not confirmed bullet timing. You really can't tell if he is actually dodging the bullets, or dodging the computer shooting the bullets. it is roughly comparable to this feat here, where it is shown that Kaine is aim dodging an entire machine gun clip while midair.
Both of these feats are aim dodging, you cannot confidently confirm that Cap or Kaine are confidently dodging the bullets. You can confirm that they are dodging the aim of the gunman. Cap's feat of seemingly aim dodging a computer targeted AK is not comparable to Kaine being able to jump/weave and dodge through a volley of bullets, clearly moving after they have been fired.
I really like the Hawkeye feat, it is a very impressive showing of speed. in that scan, he is actually moving as fast/faster than the bullets. Like i said before, however, Kaine does this with 100-200 lbs. men, taking them down, somersaulting and then turning around in the process.
Kaine most certainly has better bullet timing feats.
And Cap has better Electricity Dodging Feats as well people like Zarda, Hawkeye, and other Cap level Super Soldiers who ALL have Super speed.
Your feats are all Khain dodging Bullets from slow reaction Peak Humans!
Faster than human perception, he was able to hit people without them even knowing it, they actually thought it was wind.
That is Mach 1.5 near Mach 2 at best. Cap perceives and moves at those speeds.
Black Pnather in Scan 7 is portrayed using that speed. cap counters and tests BP, yet BP clearly could not land a blow after hours of attacking. Cap then easily finishes the fight.
I don't see it, it looks like he beats the crap out of him in scan 8.
Yes Cap does beat the crap out of Panther while Panther does not do anything to Cap who was holding back the entire time testing BP out for Avengers.
Also this does not look like speed?
BP has serious speed equal to Caps.
That is clearly blitzing.
Impressive, but in terms of combat speed, i still believe that Kaine is faster. I have already showed you him moving faster than a speedster. How about Venom? Venom was able to fight Kraven at speeds much faster than the human eye can follow. He was also able to dodge bullets while drugged out of his mind. In Kaine's fight with Flash, he temporarily blitzes him with punches until he is grabbed by the hand.
He is simply that fast.
Human Eye can Follow <<<<<< Ultimate Hawkeye Speed and Twitch Factor!
Alright, so its impressive. However, it will not really help him in this fight. He is not going to find any magic weaknesses to exploit on Kaine, he has none. He certainly won't find a fighter jet or Thor's hammer. In reality, being a tactician is only beneficial when it is on Deathstroke's level or higher. Being able to know your opponents moves before you make them is what makes tactical minds so great in a fight. Unfortunately for cap, he simply isn't there yet.
Im going to Ignore those strength feats, i have already admitted that Cap is no doubt a beast. Also, how Kaine is the one that uses piercing weapons that can easily put Cap down, as he has no piercing/cutting durability.
No he has SUPERIOR Skills and Tactics. As well a Healing Factor!
He uses web incap here, not to get info, to KO a strong opponent. Like i said before, how will Cap throw punches when he is getting webbed up and beaten at the same time?
Web incap is a perfectly reasonable option for Kaine, and something that is very hard to block, even with a shield. What will Cap do if Kaine webs up his eyes? If Steve can't see, Kaine can happily beat the hiving hell out of him without the stealth suit on. Here he uses webs to cut off the vision of both beast and iceman, an omega level mutant.
Like I have previously stated, Web incap is completely feasible.
That whole feat of Beating Iceman who EASILY beats Kaine 20 times over is a severe PIS scan.
As for Web Incap, Khain rarely uses it at all. Cap also has Knives on him and a sharp Shield that cuts thru steel. Not to mention Cap has fought 2 Spider Men before and knows all about the Webbing, which by the way has weakness to Kaine.
Webbing is not stealth, it reveals Khain location.
Webbing is not faster than what Cap has dodged.
Cap already knows about.
Cap has carried small knives as a tool. The shield as well can cut through.
Cap tends to move alot in a fight.
Seems like a rather poor claim in my opinion. They are far from being piss poor fighters. Carnage is a killing machine, easily able to take one Peter Parker and Eddie Brock Venom at the same time. People all the way from the micro verse have stated that he kills like no one else they have ever seen. Flash Thompson has years of high-level military experience and combat training. So much so, that he has been able to Fight opponents as skilled a Kraven the hunter, while moving faster than the human eye can follow.
I don't see how you can call either a piss poor fighter.
Easy, Flash Venom has lost many battles against foes and was force to Vulk out for wins. His Skills does not save the day and Flash is only a special Forces equal in skill. Carnage is a sh*ty fighter period. No skill or form of patterns in a fight.
Cap has beaten skilled fighters and establish skilled fighter time and again. Hell he beaten foes 4 times his own stats where Kaine cannot even beat Carnage, the guy Spider Man has beaten. Spider Man even koed Toxin once! Khain cannot handle Carnage! Uh huh....
To be honest, Cap probably does have superior skill showings to Kaine. Yet Kaine does not lack anything in this department at all. He has developed his own fighting style, which is seemingly a more brutal form of the way of the spider. He uses his superhuman stats so skillfully that he completely dominated Wolverine in their fight, who, actually has better skill showings than the majority of the Ultimate universe.
I haves stated several times by now, skill isn't why Kaine wins this fight. He wins because he has the gear, speed and strength to pull off a majority.
Yet the point is Caps Skill, Gear load out, and feats have beaten foes with superior stats and powers to Kaine time and time again!
This is fairly irrelevant, as Kaine has several other advantages that 616-peter doesn't. For one, he is way more brutal, he is able to cross the line and has no problem killing or not holding back. He has a stealth suit, and doesn't mind sucker punching his opponents, he has stingers, which can be used to stab and cut people (something Peter would basically never do.)
And all those things have been beaten by Ultimate Cap already in fights. Many times.
Please read the issue before you label something as a plot element. He webbed the guy up to incapacitate him from using his human-torch like powers. He didn't use webs not to kill the guy, Kaine was in the process of killing him when he heard cheering, as it was in the beginning of when people began calling him a hero.
I'm not sure how you can label the webbing incap as a plot device at all. He used it as a tactic to beat a powerful opponent, he didn't kill him because of the fact that he was being sheered for.
He used Webbing to beat a guy on fire he could not beat with physical might. Sounds like Web Incap is used only against foes he has to use it on and cannot engae in a straight brawl.
He beat Wolverine fair and square, who has superior skill showings to a majority of the ultimate crowd. About the Wolverine incident. Let me tell you this, it is a known fact that Logan needs oxygen to survive, despite his healing factor.
Do you study human anatomy? Oxygen is delivered to the cells via. the bloodstream, the heart pumps the blood all through out the body through powerful arteries. Kaine cut his heart in two, that means he cut Logan's Pulmonary arteries and Aorta, not to mention the atrium and ventricles. If you cut the two largest arteries in the body, located in the heart, Oxygen has now way of diffusing through the capillaries in to your cells, therefore, you can't survive. Logan can heal from this, yes, but is in no way PIS that he was dropped from that attack.
The Point is Wolverine suffered far worse with out being KO.
Look at that. Kaine heart cut is PIS!
you admitted it yourself in your last argument, Kaine is nothing like the normal Spidermen, and does not share their strengths. I take it you don't want to contradict yourself. From what i know, Steve has never fought anyone like Kaine, nor will he, unless they face off in a 616/Ultimate crossover (which would be amazing to be honest.)
How am I contradicting myself.
Stealth? Miles has it.
Webbing? All Spider Mans have it.
Spider stats? Peter and Miles have it too.
The ONLY thing Kaine has that Cap does not know is the Stingers, and big whoop those are.
Meanwhile EVERYTHING about Ultimate Cap is leagues superior to 616 Cap. Facts.
I'm sticking with my original post here, i have still seen little to suggest that Kaine can't sneak up on Cap, and sucker punch him in one strike. Plain and simple, i think that if Kaine takes this fight seriously, Cap ends up like this Assassin/Ninja.
Or, Carnage.
Or Wolverine, but yeah, you get the point :)
Oh no Kaine somehwat harm Carnage, and Wolverine (which was PIS).
What has Cap shown that is 10 times better? Oh wait, I know :)
Cap vs Hulk
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Cap vs Hulk. Caps first real battle. He fights and nearly beats Hulk by himself. Then forms the plan to beat Hulk after getting beaten by blood lusted Hulk.
Cap vs Kleiser
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Cap vs Kleiser. This guy has double digit ton strength and insane healing factor.
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How tough is Kleiser? Here is fighting Hulk! Cap took this guy and cut him in two.
Cap vs Juggernaut and Brother Hood
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Cap vs Brotherhood of Mutants! Cap actually takes out Juggernaut, the one kicked through the wall, with a kick to his face in this.
Cap vs SHIELD
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Cap vs SHIELD. This is a great battle as Cap is Tranqed up, fights off Captain Britain suit SHIELD agents, and then takes a Iron Man Suit tackle from hell!
How Tough are these Captain Britain SHIELD Agents.
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These SHIELD and Liberation Captain Britain Suit knock offs are 100+ toners!
Cap vs Abdule!
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Cap vs Schizo Man. Schizo Man has Mutiple Mans powers and picks a fight with a Tranquilized Cap.
Then after being freed Abomination tackles him.
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Cap vs Abdul. Cap in pretty rough shape fights a exact copy of himself thanks to Loki's magic. Cap wins. Cap then goes onto fighting Loki's Troll army lol.
Cap vs Russian Cap
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Cap vs a Russian Super Soldier who been fighting a Prison full of monsters for 60+ years. Him and the inmates were all cyborgs made with the super advance Vision body parts.
Cap vs Silver Heralds
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Both battles with Silver Heralds. Silver Heralds are capable of (and did) tearing Iron Man and Captain Marvel to shreds.
Cap vs Juggernaut
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Cap vs Juggernaut. Juggs trash Cap tlll Cap gets his Shield and KOs the 100 toner.
Cap vs Hela's Army!
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Cap dies from the Tidal Wave in New York and helps Thor beat Hela's Undead Asgardian Army!
Cap vs Nuke
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Nukes background.
After Cap gets taken down by a whole village of Super Soldiers made by Nuke, Cap is tortured for a week straight with no food, water, and Pints of blood drained everyday.
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Then when Nuke made it clear he was through with Cap, cap finds a venomous snake and sucks the poison into his mouth.
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Then he spits it in Nukes eyes and beats him down in this weak condition!
Cap vs Avengers!
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Cap vs Avengers! He pretty much by himself beats the Avengers. This includes Nerd Hulk, War Machine, Black Widow 2, Red Wasp, and Hawkeye!
Let me know when Kaine does this for feats and showings of skill.
Ultimate Cap has a good chance of KOing Kaine with a single hit to the face!
or...
Ultimate Caps skill, Gear load out, experience fighting all of Kaines power set, and Stats is just too much for the not Peter Parker clone Kaine.
I'll probably sound like a tool, but I'm going Dead heat here. I thought it was a real nice sweet debate, and I enjoyed reading about some of my favorite characters. A few Points though
I think Calebhara could made a bit more of a point of Kaine's Stingers and the Potion they emit. While Ult Cap does have a strong immunity to toxins, I think the point was there to be made at least. I also think you missed out on a trick concerning Kaine's strength. He should have a considerable Strength edge on Ult Cap, due to having Spider-Man stats enhanced by the Other. If we are generous to Cap, and use his top end Strength Feat (Stalemating Ult Pete in a pushing match, he a 9-10 tonner). Kaine is at least twice as strong, which would be important, if came to grappling or submissions.
Also Concerning Venom, when he Vulks out, he does tend to lose alot of his Speed in return for gaining Strength and Durability. Taskmaster utilizing Spider-Man's move set was able to outmaneuver Flash rather easily. Likewise, a near Bloodlusted, Spider-Senseless Peter Parker (so a Peter utilizing his strength and durability rather than speed) was still landing more hits on a Vulked out Flash than vice versa (Though Flash was weakened due to fighting Kraven earlier). So Kaine Speed-blitzing him isn't as impressive as Blitzing a Non-Vulked Flash.
As for CadenceV2, Wolverine's does have some high end showing concerning healing, but the act of a 20-25 tonner + completely slicing his heart in two is consistent with with Ko'ing him, especially when you consider the Venom Kaine's stingers exude as well (enough to down 30 tonner meta's with a scratch). Wolverine has been Ko'ed by having his heart explode in his chest before. Concerning the three Healing feats, in two of them, Wolverine should still have his heart intact, and in the infamous nitro scene, I believed Wolverine survived only due to a Angel of death or something (@super_soldierxii could you clear that up, and vote while your at it >:P). If anything, I guess you could partially discredit the fact by saying the battle didn't portray Wolverine at his best skill wise.
I'm also of the OP that Kaine is faster than Ult Cap due to the Other, but I think you missed a trick. Kaine has a habit of tanking Damage, and rather than getting into an arguement about who is faster, you could have brought that into play. Also when Spider-Man knock out Toxin? I don't recall Spider-Man meeting Jobber Brock yet, and if he K.O'ed Pat Toxin, then that smell likes WIS to me. The similarity between Miles and Kaine, is also a good point, but Miles has never attacked Cap TMK (he's too nice to), plus his strong moral concept is at odds with Kaine (Miles has hesitated multiple time to sting people, something Kaine has not).
But overall, a sweet Debate, and seeing some of these scans saves me the pain of having to Upload them myself >:DDD
I don't I've even been in a tourney debate or CaV where things get heated. If I blow my top, its usually in some arbitrary public debate. Dunno why, maybe I subconsciously leave all my trolling, satire and insults at the door when it comes to these things......
@laflux: Spider Man Koed Pat Mulligan Toxin with one punch to the face when Toxin was stealing a DVD player for Pat cause Toxin broke Pats.
Also everyone is playing the same vote it seems of Kaine wins cause he is Spider Man rather than the totally consistent showings of Cap beating everyone and anyone in Ultimate Verse.
Oh well, knew that was coming as it was stated before the debate it would be a "Up hill battle".
The Ult. Cap vs Hulk scan was repeated a bit too often in my opinion.
But I guess I did a fine job with Juggernaut, Captain Britain suit SHIELD, Warmachine, and Silver Herald scans. All 100+ toners. Well that is good to know.
@laflux: Spider Man Koed Pat Mulligan Toxin with one punch to the face when Toxin was stealing a DVD player for Pat cause Toxin broke Pats.
O_O
Do you have scans? Hearing that makes me want to start a jobber collection for Different Comic Characters. We can have Taskmaster's Sudan, Wolverine Throat Chop, Spider-Man and the Russian, Thanos vs Avengers, New Avengers, FF in Avengers Assemble, Celestial vs Random Asgardian, Captain America and the Infinity Gauntlet, The Whole of AvX...........................
@laflux: Spider Man Koed Pat Mulligan Toxin with one punch to the face when Toxin was stealing a DVD player for Pat cause Toxin broke Pats.
O_O
Do you have scans? Hearing that makes me want to start a jobber collection for Different Comic Characters. We can have Taskmaster's Sudan, Wolverine Throat Chop, Spider-Man and the Russian, Thanos vs Avengers, New Avengers, FF in Avengers Assemble, Celestial vs Random Asgardian, Captain America and the Infinity Gauntlet, The Whole of AvX...........................
@laflux: Wolverine survived the original Nitro explosion because of the Angel of Death thing, but that story was quickly ignored and never mentioned again. Wolverine's been completely incinerated down to a skeleton a couple of times now so honestly it's consistent that he will eventually hell, but it is something that knocks him out.
@laflux: Wolverine survived the original Nitro explosion because of the Angel of Death thing, but that story was quickly ignored and never mentioned again. Wolverine's been completely incinerated down to a skeleton a couple of times now so honestly it's consistent that he will eventually heal, but it is something that knocks him out.
Wow, you and Super_Soldier are telepathically linked!!! Thanks
@cadencev2: Wolverine needs oxygen :) If you render somones heart in two, there is no way for oxygen to transfer to the body cells, therefore, Wolverine will be knocked out within a very short period of time. Even when he heals, his heart will take time to pump blood through the arteries into the capillaries so, it doesn't matter how fast he heals from it, he will still be momentarily KO'ed :)
There was no PIS there, just Science doing it's thing.
@laflux: Just like Kaine beating Wolverine with a heart stab. Here is the PIS of Spider Man one shotting Toxin Pat.
Spider Man and Spider man esque characters are so full of Plot Power it is sickening!
The symbiotes power can vary depending on the state of the host. Angelo for example was twice as strong as spider-man but because he was afraid of Peter, his connection with the symbiote was shook apart. Pat was a fan of spider-man IIRC so I would assume something similar happened here. His emotions were different then what the symbiote wanted so he was "shaking symbiote apart" and weakened the connection with the symbiote, thus weakening himself to the point spider-man punched him out.
@laflux: Calebhara has 4 votes to nil. And you gave it a draw
Who cares? I knew everyone would vote for Scarlet Spider anyway no matter what I pointed out for Cap. It happens every time of Ultimate Cap vs (Insert 616 Spider Manish Character Here) battles.
Cap really does win this pretty handily.
Also Wolverine is huge PIS for 3 reasons.
1) Iceman would have soloed Kaine.
2) Wolverine has FAR GREATER skill than Kaine.
3) Wolverine has been pierced by 20+ swords in the body as well suffered attacks like I showed above and never was KOed.
@laflux: Calebhara has 4 votes to nil. And you gave it a draw
Who cares? I knew everyone would vote for Scarlet Spider anyway no matter what I pointed out for Cap. It happens every time of Ultimate Cap vs (Insert 616 Spider Manish Character Here) battles.
Cap really does win this pretty handily.
Also Wolverine is huge PIS for 3 reasons.
1) Iceman would have soloed Kaine.
2) Wolverine has FAR GREATER skill than Kaine.
3) Wolverine has been pierced by 20+ swords in the body as well suffered attacks like I showed above and never was KOed.
It was all BS.
Honestly, I think your connection to the Symbiote does matter. Probably explains why Gargan is such a jobber as well, and why Flashes feats has got better, the more connected he's got with the Symbiote.
Also I gave it a draw. Forgetting about me makes me a sad panda :(
As for your points
1. Iceman hasn't done anything worthwhile like ever. I think its a mixture of CIS, and writers not being able to use him properly
2. That was the main thing wrong with the fight. Its sad when Wolverine has fights in which he leaves his brain at the door.
3. Wolverine has been stabbed multiple times yes, but when his heart gets rendered or exploded, it should be enough to K.O him
If you want to count it as a high end feat, it just gives me more ammo to use to counter balance spider-mans low showings. I would rather chalk feats that are PIS to additional factors when possible rather then use PIS all the time.
Who cares? I knew everyone would vote for Scarlet Spider anyway no matter what I pointed out for Cap. It happens every time of Ultimate Cap vs (Insert 616 Spider Manish Character Here) battles.
Cap really does win this pretty handily.
Also Wolverine is huge PIS for 3 reasons.
1) Iceman would have soloed Kaine.
2) Wolverine has FAR GREATER skill than Kaine.
3) Wolverine has been pierced by 20+ swords in the body as well suffered attacks like I showed above and never was KOed.
It was all BS.
Let me just start out by saying I haven't actually voted yet. I haven't read the whole thing yet but I think the problem is the stealth suit. I can get back to you when I read the whole thing (I haven't read your counter for it yet but I do see the scans being brought up) but the stealth suit is something that is really difficult to counter.
1. Kaine never beat iceman. He just dodged him. I don't think iceman wanted to use an area of effect attack because he didn't want to accidentally tag beast and from what I have seen iceman isn't a serious combatant and doesn't do that in character. I think its more CIS on icemans part then anything. I wont deny iceman would stomp Kaine in a fight but in this scenario it was just dragged out because of his character and a little jobbing admittedly.
2. I can kind of agree with this but Kaine does have better physicals.
3. This is true however the 2 times his heart has been destroyed he has been temporarily knocked out. I think this is the first time Wolverine was stabbed in the heart....
@cadencev2: For the record I don't think the fight with wolverine is PIS all though I do sort of think wolverine should have did better. I think Kaine got a bit of a lucky hit (I mean wolverine doesn't get stabbed in the heart often so he probably didn't consider Kaine was going to stab him in the heart). Personally I think its a decent showing for both characters (Kaine performing well against a skilled fighter and wolverine showed some good durability with Kaine nearly breaking his hand punching him).
Ahh, this is tricky. First off, let me get this out of the way: I think Kaine wins. However, that does not mean I am voting for him. The fact that Cadence could put up such a good argument, and counter so many points, when his character was so vastly outclassed, is a testament to his debating skill. Not to say Caleb didn't do an impressive job himself.
I hate when people call Ultimate Cap a 5 tonner. Realistically, he's a 10 tonner plus. His best feat is of course holding back Ultimate Spider-Man; Pete was visibly freaking out there whereas Cap was just holding him in place, so I might even say Steve is stronger based off that. Ultimate Spider-Man of course wielded a semi-truck like a baseball bat after losing several pints of blood, and singlehandedly taking out the entire Sinister 6. Ultimate Cap could also match Kleiser blow for blow, who had a similar semi truck feat, only difference being he tossed it at the Hulk. Speaking of Hulk, Ultimate Cap momentarily KOd him with his bare hands. Do these sound like 5 tonner feats?
This looks like a very impressive bullet time feat because of the way the art portrays it, but realistically, Cap is doing the exact same thing as Kaine in these scans.
All that said, Kaine is still stronger and faster. I just wanted to point out a few things I noticed.
I think I'll vote for @cadencev2 just because I think he deserves it. He came up with a clever counter for Kaine's invisibility, something that I myself did not think of. Cap has displayed more than enough skill, awareness, and tactical ability to land a smoke bomb on Kaine, so one of his main advantages is now out. I also think Cap is a LOT more skilled than Kaine. Neither have much in the way of morals, but there's a difference between that, and actually brutality. Cap is known for not fighting fair, going for the groin, biting his opponent's ear off, taking cheap shots, etc. His fight with the Russian Cap is a good example of this. However I would like to point out,
This was freakin' hilarious xD
I don't think Cap will be tagging Kaine with his shield, but I should point out that is definitely moves MUCH faster than a bullet.
So cadence gets my vote, even though I think Kaine wins.
Only Captain Britain Super Soldiers are 100+ tonners, those SHIELD Super Soldiers have Class 3 strength just like their Liberator counterparts who needed dozens of Super Soldiers to intercept and capture the Air Force One.
Only Captain Britain Super Soldiers are 100+ tonners, those SHIELD Super Soldiers have Class 3 strength just like their Liberator counterparts who needed dozens of Super Soldiers to intercept and capture the Air Force One.
I think the feat is actually more impressive this way. I couldn't take it seriously before when I thought they were class 100, but if they're only class 3 than it becomes a very impressive endurance and skill feat for Cap.
@cadencev2 I think you two have argued about this before. I must say, the characters lifting the missiles do in fact look a lot different than the ones beating on Cap.
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