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#51 Posted by oviouslyjeangrey (400 posts) - - Show Bio

Roddy010 for me I feel like I am being super biased.

#52 Edited by Roddy010 (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks to everyone that voted and gave feed back after tallying up all the votes we are now at:

Veitha-14

Roddy010-6

Please feel free to vote people. This was a really epic thread lol.

#53 Posted by White Mage (18740 posts) - - Show Bio

Regardless of who I think wins as far as teams go and certain points I may or may not disagree with, I think Roddy's veteran ability showed here, but I do feel like @veitha had the overall better argument. Kudos to her and I'm glad to see her getting some solid experiences in the battle forum.

This.

First of all, I love you both for going hard for 2 characters that I find myself falling in love with all over again.

Second, Roddy, I love you for covering Jean's feats without Phoenix. I miss classic Jean way too much. Veitha, I feel that you did a solid job of covering ways that your team would kill Roddy's. But, Roddy, in my opinion, did a better job of covering the ways that Jean could counter Sue's blows....but, after reading the arguments (sorry Roddy, for what I'm about to say), I think that Raven is possibly the most vulnerable person here, because Magik is.....something else.

I left this feeling, once again, that Jean is one of the strongest mutants ever, but is at risk of getting overwhelmed. However, it cannot be overlooked that Jean's Phoenix manifestations were her own, and her powers evolved to such a level that she essentially morphed into the Force. I feel that it would be possible for her to get at Sue, and her fields. However, I did not leave this argument feeling that Raven was blow for blow on Magik's level. So, I've gotta vote for Veitha.................this was REALLY hard to decide..............you guys made me nerd-smile so hard.

#54 Posted by Veitha (2726 posts) - - Show Bio

@white_mage: thanks for voting and thanks for explaining so well the reasons of your vote :)

Veitha 15 - Roddy010 6

And I wanted to say that, even if I've got an Emma Frost's avatar I'm a man lol :P

#55 Edited by Roddy010 (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: @sync1: @chiq: @sovereign91001: @backflip:

@white_mage: Thank You all for the positive feedback. I really appreciate it :)

@veitha said:

@white_mage: thanks for voting and thanks for explaining so well the reasons of your vote :)

Veitha 15 - Roddy010 6

And I wanted to say that, even if I've got an Emma Frost's avatar I'm a man lol :P

Lol well it looks like the better man one this thread. Congrats my friend you are a very notable debater. If you wanna debate against Storm next I'm totally up for it. lol

#56 Posted by Veitha (2726 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010: oh thanks, I loved debating with you :) debating against Storm is going to be harder lol since you're one of the best Storm debaters I've seen on the Vine, when I'll find a character to use against her I'll challenge you :)

#57 Posted by Roddy010 (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha: Oh thanks, I learned from the best and she's my fav character. So you know I have to hold it down for Storm lol. Well I'll be on the look out for you in other voting threads and I'll be sure to vote. ;)

#58 Posted by Veitha (2726 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010: thank you :) I've started a new tournament, if you want to join. I'll tag you :)

#59 Edited by PhoenixoftheTides (3443 posts) - - Show Bio

I am a Jean Grey supporter, but psionics have a lot of trouble dealing with Magik and Invisible Woman's forcefields offers her protection from most psionic attacks. Plus Magik can always just send Jean and/or Raven to Limbo for a BFR or just to slap them around while she and Sue team up against whoever is left. It's a really tough match, but forcefields and time displacement really edge the match in Team Veitha's favor. Bloodlusted Sue kills Jean or Raven with a bubble to the brain while Bloodlusted Magik starts to do the same to the other person. I don't think Raven is mean enough, even bloodlusted, to take out Magik who is already mean but would become even worse when an empath tries playing with her emotions. Good job, Veitha!

#60 Posted by Roddy010 (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

I am a Jean Grey supporter, but psionics have a lot of trouble dealing with Magik and Invisible Woman's forcefields offers her protection from most psionic attacks. Plus Magik can always just send Jean and/or Raven to Limbo for a BFR or just to slap them around while she and Sue team up against whoever is left. It's a really tough match, but forcefields and time displacement really edge the match in Team Veitha's favor. Bloodlusted Sue kills Jean or Raven with a bubble to the brain while Bloodlusted Magik starts to do the same to the other person. I don't think Raven is mean enough, even bloodlusted, to take out Magik who is already mean but would become even worse when an empath tries playing with her emotions. Good job, Veitha!

How so when I've shown other telepaths breaching her shields and Raven resisting teleportation.

#61 Edited by Yasiiii4 (150 posts) - - Show Bio
#62 Posted by Roddy010 (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

@yasiiii4: thanks lol well looks like voting isn't over. Veitha-15 Roddy-7

#63 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (3893 posts) - - Show Bio

Very good debates on both sides, people still seem to overlook the fact that the scan usually used to show Sue being able to block telepath, doesn't really show her doing it. Cable with the TO-virus ravaging his body has been able to use telepathy through her shield, at the time she was using the shield in concert with his to block a psionic storm created by Onslaught.

Magk has high resistance to telepathy, but as it was shown even telepathic immunity, whether natural or magical has been bypassed by Jean, and even Karma has entered her mind to wipe her memories, and she was not immune or resistant to Legions psionic abilities that pulled her into his mind.

My votes goes to Roddy, due to showing that Jean telepathy should be powerful enough to cause trouble for both of them and that Sues shields are not as affective on Jean when Jean is acutally using them to fight Sue, instead of just standing there while Sue sneaks up on her invisible.

@roddy010: Just in case you weren't aware telepathy is very effective against Magiks astral form regardless of her ability to keep telepaths from directly entering her mind, Emma showed this when she kidnapped Kitty and Illyana astral projected to the Mass. Academy to find her.

#64 Posted by BMEZY (1205 posts) - - Show Bio

Magik, being an effective wildcard gives team two the edge and because of that I have to go with Veitha!!

Roddy, you're one of my FAVES
:D:D

#65 Posted by Roddy010 (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

@bmezy: @lordofallhumans: I was actually unaware of this. What issue was it? Also I must say thank you for the information you've been giving me. It's helped me quite a lot :). Thanks a bunch :).

#66 Edited by Roddy010 (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

Veitha-16 Roddy010-8

#67 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (3893 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010:

You're very welcome....it was New Mutant #15. Something else about Magik and her "telepathic immunity", it never actually says she is immune only that her mind is protected by very powerful and sophisticated shields, which means there is a chance to actually get into her mind. Jean went against a horde of N'gari in Limbo and commented on how alien their minds were, but all you needed was the right psychic key and you could get in, add that to the fact that this is around the same time it was stated that a full assault from Jean can get through any shielding and she should be able to mindrape Magik just as easy as she does other powerful telepaths that are actively trying to protect their minds from her. She could potentially unleash this attack and take out both of team two, which would leave Raven standing thus getting a win for team one. I will agree Magik can be a wildcard, but that is usually based on Limbo, as far as we all know unless Magik actively seals it off, Raven can move the battle from Limbo as quick as Magik can move it there. I really don't feel like Raven is a good match for Magik anyway, outside of teleportation and demonic connections, Magik as far as fire power in the magic department is way out of Ravens league, since Magik was always reminding Empath how useless he was against her, Raven actually brings nothing in the way of attack to the battle when it comes to Magik. I'd have Jean go after Magik and let Raven deal with Sue. Even if Jean can't get into Magiks mind, there is still that pesky tk of hers that can manipulate molecules, clot blood, and halt the functions of major organs (just ask Rictor).

#68 Edited by chiq (1899 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: Magik can always teleport blitz people. Like Vethia said she can teledismember opponents with a thought. Another advantage she has over Raven's teleportation is that she does not need to engulf people to teleport them. She can teleport Jean from the safety of Limbo or another galaxy and dump her in a black hole or dump her in time. She can theoretically attack from any plane of existence (like Veitha said she does not need line of sight to teleport people anywhere)

She was able to find Legion who was banished from existence itself and she can see the battle field on earth from the safety of Limbo

Magik can open any number of portals anywhere with her being safely in Limbo while Raven has to engulf the target putting her at greater risk. So let's say Magik dumps Jean in a blackhole Raven would have to physically follow Jean there while Raven dumping Sue in the same location would just require Magik to think her back into the battle field without risk to herself.

Like Veitha countered, Jean mindraping Magik instantly is debatable due to her shields while Magik dumping Jean anywhere she wants is not. (Unless there as scans of Jean resisting teleportation and magic) If there are then I agree it would be a great fight. Even on earth though, Illyana has a lot of attacks besides teleportation like TK or hellfire and magical blasts as well. If the fight ends up in Limbo well, no one on this team is beating her there.

This was a great debate though..props to both of them.

#69 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (3893 posts) - - Show Bio

@chiq:

You are only proven my point that Limbo is what makes her a wildcard, and that as I stated Raven is not a good match.

About the debate with her against Jeans telepathy, it is indeed debatable, but as I have shown Magik is not immune to telepathy just very resistence due to magic, Jean has shown that magical immunity and demon minds are not a problem for her, doesn't seem far fecthed that magical resistence will fare much better. Karma has twice entered Magiks mind, once she was overwhelmed by demons, something that happened to Jean when she entered the minds of two N'gari, but when she did it a second time she was able to mind rape a horde, I say this show that the evil in her mind shouldn't be a problem once she gained access. The second time Karma was able to erase her memories. Jean is many times stronger than Karma and it took Karma no time to establish a link, on top of her track record with psi shields and immunity. Then there is people ignoring that Legion was in possession of Karma and still Magik was effected and her mind was taken from her body and drawn into Karmas. Fact is Xavier never try to do anything other than scan her mind, hit the shields and gave up. Emma proved her astral form can be attack telepathically, teleapaths can launch attacks from the astral plane just as fast as they can from the physical plane. Magik can teleport from a distance with a thought, and Jean can stop her heart at the same speed from a distance as well.

Let's not forget that Magiks mode of teleportation is controlling the stepping discs in limbo, and that you can escape from them. Illyana fell into one, and Kitty caught her, had she not lost her grip she could have pulled Illyana out, seems to me if you can reach in and catch people Jean can simply use her tk to get out, before she sent anywhere.

#70 Edited by chiq (1899 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans said:

@chiq:

You are only proven my point that Limbo is what makes her a wildcard, and that as I stated Raven is not a good match.

About the debate with her against Jeans telepathy, it is indeed debatable, but as I have shown Magik is not immune to telepathy just very resistence due to magic, Jean has shown that magical immunity and demon minds are not a problem for her, doesn't seem far fecthed that magical resistence will fare much better. Karma has twice entered Magiks mind, once she was overwhelmed by demons, something that happened to Jean when she entered the minds of two N'gari, but when she did it a second time she was able to mind rape a horde, I say this show that the evil in her mind shouldn't be a problem once she gained access. The second time Karma was able to erase her memories. Jean is many times stronger than Karma and it took Karma no time to establish a link, on top of her track record with psi shields and immunity. Then there is people ignoring that Legion was in possession of Karma and still Magik was effected and her mind was taken from her body and drawn into Karmas. Fact is Xavier never try to do anything other than scan her mind, hit the shields and gave up. Emma proved her astral form can be attack telepathically, teleapaths can launch attacks from the astral plane just as fast as they can from the physical plane. Magik can teleport from a distance with a thought, and Jean can stop her heart at the same speed from a distance as well.

She was able to kill Legion's personalities when she was in his mind though...Magik has mindwiped people before but of course she's nowhere in the class of Jean when it comes to that. Also Sy'm resisted Xavier's mind blast. Illyana is much more powerful then Sy'm. Can Jean attack Magik in Limbo from earth? Not saying she can't it's just an honest question, since Magik can attack from Limbo.

Never seen anyone escape Magik from porting them, and there are instances where the discs are literally blinks that people don't even see. She can control the length of time those portals are open. They range from blink of an eye to having them opened forever. Like that disc she merged to the attic in the x-mansion.

#71 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (3893 posts) - - Show Bio

@chiq:

She was able to kill them with her soulsword, and that did nothing to prevent her from her mind being hikacked psionically which was the point. No Jean can't attack her in Limbo, but I don't see how that would be relevant in a forum battle. Magik gets to fight from her own realm where she is basically a god, and Jean can't use the Phoenix? Sounds like spite to me, it's bad enough Jean was teamed with the very limited Raven.

Xavier didn't mind blast Illyana he tried to scan her mind, where is the proof that her mind is stronger than Sy'm? Espeically when a psi attack from Emma Frost hurt her astral form, which in Marvel is your mind when it's not in your body. She has powerful shields of unknown origin, this says nothing about the strength of her mind , as far as will power people forget how easily the young Illyana was corrupted.

#72 Edited by chiq (1899 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: It is in character for Illyana to dump her problems into Limbo. So it boils down to Jean mindraping her before she goes to Limbo or not. I never said it was impossible for Jean to mindrape her. All I am saying it's not an automatic win for Jean due to TP.

#73 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (3893 posts) - - Show Bio

@chiq said:

@lordofallhumans: It is in character for Illyana to dump her problems into Limbo. So it boils down to Jean mindraping her before she goes to Limbo or not. I never said it was impossible for Jean to mindrape her. All I am saying it's not an automatic win for Jean due to TP.

In character Jean levitates, stepping discs are not blackholes they can be escaped. Jean doesn't have to mindrape her, there are no morals she can just think stop and Magiks heart stops and I believe Jean can attack psychically before Magik can summon a stepping disc that Jean can avoid.

#74 Edited by chiq (1899 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans said:

@chiq said:

@lordofallhumans: It is in character for Illyana to dump her problems into Limbo. So it boils down to Jean mindraping her before she goes to Limbo or not. I never said it was impossible for Jean to mindrape her. All I am saying it's not an automatic win for Jean due to TP.

In character Jean levitates, stepping discs are not blackholes they can be escaped. Jean doesn't have to mindrape her, there are no morals she can just think stop and Magiks heart stops and I believe Jean can attack psychically before Magik can summon a stepping disc that Jean can avoid.

Magik has caught flyers bullets lasers etc.. with her discs. She can port into Limbo so Jean won;t know where those discs are coming from. Magik can play it like mirror master and attack from a different dimension. Magik teleports her head off or dumps her in a black hole w/o morals. Magik can heal. She can call in lightning and transmute stuff on earth as well. One earth it's a quick draw at the very least.

#75 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (3893 posts) - - Show Bio

@chiq said:

@lordofallhumans said:

@chiq said:

@lordofallhumans: It is in character for Illyana to dump her problems into Limbo. So it boils down to Jean mindraping her before she goes to Limbo or not. I never said it was impossible for Jean to mindrape her. All I am saying it's not an automatic win for Jean due to TP.

In character Jean levitates, stepping discs are not blackholes they can be escaped. Jean doesn't have to mindrape her, there are no morals she can just think stop and Magiks heart stops and I believe Jean can attack psychically before Magik can summon a stepping disc that Jean can avoid.

Magik has caught flyers bullets lasers etc.. with her discs. Show me someone escaping her discs? She can port into Limbo so Jean won;t know where those discs are headed. Magik teleports her head off w/o morals. Magik can heal jean can't.

She nearly escaped a disc when Kitty grabbed on to her, Kitty lost her grip which prevented Illyana from being rescued, she later reopens the disc and an older Illyana is pulled out, as far Kitty was concerned the portal never closed, point is if Kitty can reach into a disc and grab something that fell in and eventually pull something out, there really shouldn't be any reason why a telekinetic can't just levitate to escape a disc appearing beneath them. Prove to me her disc act like blackholes from which nothing can escape. Lasers, and bullets will go straight into to anything in front of them, and some flyers would have the same problem (hope your not talking about New Mutants Cannonball when you say flyers. Magik can heal in Limbo, she is very mortal on Earth it's not like she has a healing factor, so we can safely assume she would die if her heart was stopped, with no chance of healing herself. Once again lending credence to my remark about Limbo making her a wildcard. If she can just go to Limbo and play god from there, then Jean should be able to use the Phoenix, which would decimate Limbo. As shown in Inferno the plan was to merge the entire Earth realm with Limbo, New York was already merged and for all intents and purposes Limbo which is why Magik was so powerful during Inferno during the demon reign and guess what wiped the Earth plane clean of Limbo? the Phoenix reconneting with Jean.

Magik doesn't have any morals to begin with. How often does she actually teleport heads off? More often than not she still summons her sword at the start of any battle, which is plenty of time for a Jean without morals to act. Jean has altered bodily functions, clotted blood, and turned off minds instantly with morals on.

#76 Edited by chiq (1899 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: It doesn't say that Limbo can't be used here. I don't know why you are bringing up the Phoenix when it states that she doesn't have the PF here.

.She can teleport in a blink of an eye.

Magik now isn't operating on normal human level on Earth. She can leap from or levitate (in all new x-men) and slice through a Giant Sentinel the size of a building in one strike.

Angel blitzes Magneto and Illyana is still able to teleport Mags away to safety even if she is a continent away just based on Magneto's signal. She doesn't need to see or even know where her target is.

She teleports Warlock away from Impossible man mid flight. IM couldn't find him after. She can position those discs anywhere she wants.

She can heal on earth. She healed herself from Mercury's stab wound in the Danger room.

Not saying Illyana is as powerful as the Jean PF but Rachel as the PF has trouble w/ Limbo magic. She couldn't undo the soul sword's enchantment and she got transmuted into a mannequin by a lesser demon from Limbo. Which is irrelevant since it clearly states that Jean has no PF here. Illyana also has better one on one battle records then anyone here. She has beaten powerful opponents solo. She knows what Jean is capable off so i don't know why she won't try to bring the battle to Limbo or dimension dump like she did rouge. She does bring powerful opponents to Limbo like Colossus w/ gem or Legion.

#77 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (3893 posts) - - Show Bio

@chiq said:

@lordofallhumans: It doesn't say that Limbo can't be used here. I don't know why you are bringing up the Phoenix when it states that she doesn't have the PF here.

.She can teleport in a blink of an eye.

Magik now isn't operating on normal human level on Earth. She can leap from or levitate (in all new x-men) and slice through a Giant Sentinel the size of a building in one strike.

Angel blitzes Magneto and Illyana is still able to teleport Mags away to safety even if she is a continent away just based on Magneto's signal. She doesn't need to see or even know where her target is.

She teleports Warlock away from Impossible man mid flight. IM couldn't find him after. She can position those discs anywhere she wants.

She can heal on earth. She healed herself from Mercury's stab wound in the Danger room.

Not saying Illyana is as powerful as the Jean PF but Rachel as the PF has trouble w/ Limbo magic. She couldn't undo the soul sword's enchantment and she got transmuted into a mannequin by a lesser demon from Limbo. Which is irrelevant since it clearly states that Jean has no PF here. Illyana also has better one on one battle records then anyone here. She has beaten powerful opponents solo. She knows what Jean is capable off so i don't know why she won't try to bring the battle to Limbo or dimension dump like she did rouge. She does bring powerful opponents to Limbo like Colossus w/ gem or Legion.

Which is why it can considered a spite thread, if you continue to bring up how Illyana in a battle can leave the battle and play god from another dimension allowing her access to her full power, but Jean is not. That is the only reason I brought up Phoenix, and it's pretty clear I am aware Jean can't use it. All she knows is that Jean is a powerful tk/tp and she like many of you believes her psi shields can take anything, so I don't see her taking the battle to limbo, doesn't matter if there is no rule saying she can't use it, the point is the battle is not in Limbo meaning if Illyana does take it there she automatically loses by self BFR.

The question of her being able to teleport with a thought is not in question, I just don't see her being able to so before Jean without morals can attack her a number of ways.

It has never been a secret since New Mutants that Illyana has enhanced physical stats on Earth especially in her darkchilde form, but she does not instantly heal from being hurt even if she did, she will die if her heart is stopped, as I said she is very mortal on Earth. Are you bringing up her slicing a sentinel down the middle in a single strike with an intangible sword? It's not impressive considering anybody could slice through anything with a single strike with an intangible weapon absolutely no strength is required.

So you are saying the very young only really in new mutants in the beggining, dead for several years just back from the dead Illyana has a better battle record than Sue, Jean and Raven combined?

People love to bring up that one incident involving Rachel and the Sword to create some weakness the Phoenix has to magic. Rachel was channeling but a fraction of the Phoenix, and is nowhere as powerful as Jean is with it. The half of the Phoenix Rachel had was obviously weaker than the half Maddie had, as Maddies half proved the Phoenix was more than a match for the entire dimension of Limbo when it wiped Inferno out, something that is overlooked in favor of trying to place a weakness on the Phoenix when it was stated on panel more than once that weaknesses of the Rachel/Phoenix was due to her inexperience and not a lack in power, which was still not as great as Jean/Phoenix.

You are acting like teleportation is some attack that proves she is powerful, so she can teleport Colossus with the gem and Legion, what is that proving actually? I'm pretty sure Blink can teleport them too, they are teleporters, it stands to reason they can teleport anybody. Point is there is nothing suggesting stepping discs are inescapable blackholes, and there is actual proof with the first appearance of the discs that you can escape from them just by grabing hold of something reaching in. As I said before, on panel show her starting off battle by manifesting her sword more often than sending people to Limbo and we can't say she would do that in this battle because morals are off, because she doesn't have morals and hardly does it as much as you are trying to say, she certainly is not more prone to do it than Jean is to attack her instantly, below is what an angry no morals Jean will do, I doubt Magik will find time to heal or even think to teleport while this is happening

#78 Edited by chiq (1899 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: Why are you saying Magik can't bring people to Limbo? Limbo has been used through the entire debate. It is not self BFR since there is no BFR rule in this battle. The battle starts out on earth, it doesn't mean it has to end there. Limbo is just a heartbeat away for Magik, it is a split second away. I didn't start the thread I am just playing by the rules. In this battle Magik can use Limbo and Jean can't use phoenix. If you don't like it take it up with the thread starters. It's like using Mirror Master that can't access the mirror dimension.

When did Maddie wipe out Limbo? Illyana ended Inferno herself while Maddie, Sinister and a splinter group remained after. Are you talking about the what if comic where Sy'm got hold of the soulsword?

The sword isn't intangible in that scan. It is tearing through Sentinel armor. She is basically slicing through an armored building. Even Juggernut Colossus needed a couple of punches to put one down.It is a non magical creature. The cuts are even jagged, so I don't think your ave. teen blonde can do that. Magik can now access more of Limbo's energies on Earth.

Magik w/o morals has no problem killing. That scan of Jean ripping somone apart is no different from the scan Veitha had of Magik ripping mercury apart.

Here are other examples of her having no problems maiming, slashing or killing people. From porting them into volcanoes to killing her own mentor at an early age since there was no other option. There are a lot more examples especially when it comes to demons. She has sent a lot of criminals to Limbo. She even has no problem sending Avengers there to rot. Magik has always been more ruthless then Jean. If you want we can see who has more scans of Magik dumping people into Limbo vs Jean tearing up people with her TK, I am almost sure Magik has sent more people to hell then Jean has of dismembering people. Magik sends more people to Limbo then nightcrawler has teledismembred or flash has imp'ed anyone. Yet people always use these moves when both characters are bloodlusted.

Yes, Magik's teleportation alone by itself being used as an attack is powerful. That is the only thing Blink can do but she can still take out a lot of characters with that single power. She can teledismember she can dump characters in volcanos (which she has done) blackholes, dump them in time, teleport them into solid objects and teleport an entire demon army or even a dimension into attack. She can do what Thanos did with the IG.

You are banking on one showing where kitty is trying to pull a young illyana with no experience with her powers through the portal (she wasn't even succesful) while ignoring all the other instances where these portals have swallowed up their targets. Especially since she has aged and is much better at using he powers now. If illyana can teleport in a blink of an eye and redirect bullets and blasts it means those portals can close in an instant. The portals can close at varying speeds. (They can close instantly or remain opened forever) You are basically saying Jean can avoid being teleported when we haven't seen anyone avoid being teleported by Magik. If there is anyone who can't be teleported into Limbo it's Raven since it has been shown that she can resist being teleported. Although Magik can stop people from teleporting too. If you show me a scan of Jean resisting being teleported then yes you do have a point.

Teleporting Colossus and Legion illustrates that when the threat is big enough she will dump them in Limbo.

#79 Edited by Roddy010 (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: Ok thanks. I've always known her "immunity" was only a high resistance. I actually touched on this in one of my post, but thanks for more clarification. You have been so helpful :)

@lordofallhumans:& @chiq:

Haha looks like this thread sparked some more debates. But unfortunately Raven is being seriously underestimated :/....Honestly Magik is a major threat to Raven solely because of her soulsword's ability to nullify magic so I give her the edge there. However with Jean there to provide enough of a defense/distraction I see this as being unlikely. Also Jean being poted to Limbo is unlikely as well. I've already shown that Raven can resist teleportation so her and her teammate aren't going anywhere. Jean will be in both Sue and Magik's minds before Magik could pull this stunt off anyway. Once their defenses are breached its game over.

Raven can be considered a full psionic just like Jean (which makes this duo so perfect.) possessing empathy, telepathy, precognition, telekinesis and is leaps and bounds out of Empaths league. I have seen nothing that placed him on her level of skill and power.

Empathy/Telepathy

DC Comics Presents #26: Raven invades Dick Grayson’s dreams and shows him a glimpse of his near-future as part of the Teen Titans.

Tales of the Teen Titans Vol 1 56: Raven implants pain and suffering into multiple people. Note that she threaten to implant them with the pain and suffering of all humankind.

Tales of the Teen Titans Vol 1 46: Raven empathically feels Aquagirl's shriek of pain and teleports onto the H.I.V.E. base. The evil influence of Trigon overwhelms her and she slaughters every H.I.V.E. agent in the room.

New Teen Titans Vol 1 #31: The Titans were nearly killed by the Brotherhood. Raven taps into her demonic side and nearly kills everyone had Wonder girl not intervene.

New Teen Titans #34: Mento built a helmet to amplify his psychic abilities, however it also increased Dayton's paranoia and dementia causing a mental illness. Raven was able to cure him of it.

New Teen Titans #2: Ravager was at the brink of death due to burning out his powers. Raven took his rage and distorted it into a mental image before he died.

New Teen Titans #21: Raven senses and dodges a sniper fire shot at her. She also shows that she can multitask using her soulself and empathic abilities simultaneously.

Teen Titans Vol 3 #88: Headcase, a very powerful telepath/telekinetic, had soloed an entire roster of Teen Titans and created machinery that capable of forming black holes all through his imagination. He also buried High School underground using his tk. Raven BFR's him into her soulself and sent him into a coma.

New Teen Titans Vol 1 #18: Redstar had solo'd an entire roster of Teen Titans. Raven sends him to sleep.

New Teen Titans Vol 1 #18: Micheal Sheldon had solo'd an entire roster of Teen Titans. Raven send him into a comatose state.

Teen Titans vol.3 #40: Bombshell, who possess the same abilities as Captain Atom, solo'd an entire roster of Titans. Raven freezes Bombshell with her soulself.

Multiple accounts of Raven subduing Villains and unraveling Mindcontrol.

Multiple accounts of Mind Reading/Alteration

Mutiple Accounts of her healing herself and others

Wonder Woman Vol 2 #173: Darkseid, in a depowered state, had Wonder Woman tap into the minds and souls of the Amazons through the Wonderdome. She asked them to focus their beliefs into one unified energy and then Raven gathered the energy and funneled it into Darkseid so he could regain power.

New Teen Titans Vol 2 #43: Raven travels to the Nexus of All Dimension, where she can tap into every living soul and shape them on a whim.

Telekinesis

Raven's tk is usually manifested by her soulself (much like most of her abilities). It can also be seen as Dark Energy. Raven can use this psionic energy to create concussive blast of force or simply move objects with her mind.

Solstice's appearance cause Raven to unleash a shock wave of energy effecting everyone in the vicinity. Later she unleashed another shockwave of energy that killed 3000+ demons that gave Superboy and Wonder Girl trouble.

Teleportation

Raven's teleportation derive from an extra-dimensional energy source manifesting as her soulself. Her soulself can also be seen as a nexus to all realities. (both known and unknown) Her ports traverse space/time and is done at the speed of thought.

Combat Speed

@veitha: Looks like the debate is still rolling :)

#80 Edited by Veitha (2726 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010: hey, I haven't noticed that this was still going on hahaha

well @chiq and @lordofallhumans are some of the best experts of respectively Magik and Jean, I'm a bit jeaulous of their knowledge :P

Anyway, as I said before, Magik and Sue have both got at least resistance if not immunity, Jean and Raven haven't got any resistance to their attacks, and this is the biggest advantage that my team has because if you will need two seconds to attack us, we will need one, and this will let Sue and Magik kill them in a lot of ways, brain-bubbles, suffucation, head-explosion, teledismemberment, BFR, Soulsword, and the possibility to bring Jean to Limbo, where Magik is omnipotent. And remember that Magik has depowered people more than once, she may be able to depower Raven.

Even if Jean went against Illyana, she's always got defense against TP attacks, and Sue can shield her from TK, so it's more likely that Jean will be sent to Limbo and killed there before she can reach Magik's mind or before she can use her TK in a good way against her(this is quite impossible, thanks to Sue).

Raven is strong, but she's quite a non-factor against Magik. She can block any of her attacks, and her Soulsword negates magic and kills magical beings, so if Raven tries to attack Illyana she will just be killed by her. Sue can stop psionic attacks, after stopping Raven she will just put a force field around and her and suffucate her or stuff like this(she may also use this tactic to negate Raven's concentration).

#81 Edited by Roddy010 (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha: Oh I know you're a busy man with all the Tourney business. Lol still waiting on those guys to get the characters together. And yes I've debated with and against both and they are very credible debators. But back to the debate. >:D

Anyway, as I said before, Magik and Sue have both got at least resistance if not immunity, Jean and Raven haven't got any resistance to their attacks

This is untrue.They both only have resistance, not immunity. Sue's resistance is dependent on the strength her shields just as Magik's resistance is due to her mystic shielding due to her time in Limbo. Neither has the will power feats to say they could fight off an assault against someone of Jean's caliber. As lordofallhumans stated both Sue and Magik have been effected by telepathy so there is not enough evidence to say Jean couldn't bypass their differences. Also add the fact that her tract record of bypassing immunity/resistance completely trumps their resistance feats.

I've already shown you Raven resisting teleportation. She and her teammate are not going anywhere so Limbo is not an option for the Team. I've also shown Jean countering Sue's shield with her telekinesis. Let's not forget Jean has tk on a sub-atomic level. What's stopping her from rearranging both Sue and Magik's insides all while destroying them telepathically.

Raven is strong, but she's quite a non-factor against Magik. She can block any of her attacks, and her Soulsword negates magic and kills magical beings, so if Raven tries to attack Illyana she will just be killed by her. Sue can stop psionic attacks, after stopping Raven she will just put a force field around and her and suffucate her or stuff like this(she may also use this tactic to negate Raven's concentration).

The Soulsword is what gives Magik the edge nothing more. And after doing some research I find that Magik's soulsword can be touched/manipulated by others.

[New Mutants (1st series) #30]-When Illyana was briefly driven mad by the curious omnipotent Beyonder and turned into her evil self – the Darkchylde- the blade turned black corresponding with her soul’s state. Kitty Pryde grabbed the sword (something no other could do) and used it on Illyana returning her to normal.

[New Mutants (1st series) #71-73]Shortly afterwards during InfernoMagik lost control of her sword as she had lost control of her realm. While the blade had been untouchable to others before now suddenly the demon S’ym could tap into its power and took it from her. Following the advice of another demon named Nastir’h Illyana fought S’ym for the blade and unleashed its full power thus turning into the Darkchylde and unwittingly creating a permanent opening between Limbo and Earth. Trying to undo all this Magik cast her final spell and apparently reverted to the six years old, she had been before Belasco had corrupted her.

[Excalibur #37-39]Apparently the nature of the Soulsword had changed – now anyone could touch the blade, but only Kitty could remove it from the stone it was stuck in. At a later point Kitty’s “doctor” Dr. Doom paid her a visit and convinced her to use the sword to pave a way for them to Limbo (an ability the sword hadn’t displayed before, possibly because it wasn’t necessary). Doom claimed the Promethium in that dimension could solve the world’s energy problems. Kitty fell for his ruse, and soon Doom wrested the sword from her thus becoming ruler of Limbo and very soon she, Excalibur, the West Coast Avengers, Doom, and Darkoth, a man whose life Doom had destroyed and who now lived in Limbo, were embroiled in a battle.

[Excalibur #83-85]Amanda Sefton then convinced Kitty to give her the Soulsword, magically severing the link between Kitty and the blade, and turned the weapon over to her mother Margali for safekeeping, a mistake that would come to haunt her.

-UncannyXmen.net

Disarming Magik will be no problem for two telekinetics. Without her soulsword she would have no defense against Raven's soulself, which has effected Gods such as Darkseid and Rhea. Also there's the fact that Raven can effect/manipulate magic enchantments as well. In Teen Titans Vol 3 #46 Raven filtered Neron demonic essence into Kid Devil. Now mind you Neron is a Hell Lord just like Magik and is considered a threat to the Spectre.

Sue is the biggest liability for your Team. Raven can easily phase through her shields and she has absolutely no defense against Raven's soulself and Jean's telepathy. Sue will either be put to sleep, mindraped into a comatose state or turned against her teammate. Pick your poison because she the first to go down.

#82 Posted by dondave (33328 posts) - - Show Bio
#83 Posted by Roddy010 (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: I thought so too but lordofallhumans and chiq ignited the flame again lol. Honestly I had more points to make anyway lol.

#84 Posted by Roddy010 (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

Since the debate is still going. Voting is still open as well so please feel free to vote guys.

#85 Edited by njones5 (234 posts) - - Show Bio

Roddy010 you have myy vote you make great points