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#1 Edited by Veitha (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Roddy010:

Team Veitha:

No preparation;

Morals off;

Each team is willing to kill the other team with any means(bloodlusted);

No Phoenix Force for Jean Grey;

Winning by KO or death.

Location: Genosha

They start at 500 metres from each other.

#2 Posted by Veitha (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 here's the thread... this has got the potential to be an epic battle lol

#3 Posted by Roddy010 (4931 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha: Awesome :) I will post my opening argument when I get home.

#4 Edited by Roddy010 (4931 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha: What's the starting distance and location?

#5 Posted by Veitha (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010: Oh, I forgot to chose them. I'll edit the OP

#6 Posted by Roddy010 (4931 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha: Sorry for the late response been pretty busy :)

500 meters is a lot of ground for Magik and Sue to cover and they are not speedster so it will be a matter of finding Jean and Raven.

These two have quite an advantage over Magik and Sue being highly talented psionics. They have a better system of communication as well as a better sense of their surroundings. Plus adding to the fact that both can attack from this range with no problem I say they have the first strike. Their best tactic is to attack Sue first. Jean's telepathy amplyfing Raven's empathic power will be more than enough for Sue to handle. Raven can implant blinding anger within Sue causing her to attack her own team mate much like she did Starfire and Flash in New Teen Titans.

Magik will be forced to either end her teammate there or send her to Limbo. Either way this then will turn into a 2 versus 1 match. Magik will still have to locate Raven and Jean in order to attack them so they still have the advantage there. Raven will then port them to Magik where they will gang up on her using their psychic prowess.

#7 Edited by BlackDove (375 posts) - - Show Bio

I pretty much agree with everything Roddy has stated and exemplified. However, it is important to remember that Magik is Raven's biggest threat seeing that her Soul Sword is deadly to persons of magic. That being said, if Jean and Raven can maintain a safe distance and attack them together or individually team 1 should overcome team 2.

#8 Edited by Veitha (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010: ok, here we go. I have to thank @chiq for Magik's scans

Being far from your team won't be an issue for mine. Magik has got the ability to sense the environment to teleport exactly where she needs, so she will be able to understand where your team is and to teleport exactly in the most usefull position to harm them.

She could telepor Magneto and Scott at very far distance without knowing their right position, and she is able to teleport people exactly where they're needed

Susan's shields are telepathy proof, she was able to resist against Psy-lord telepathy untill he got her put these shields down, so no way Jean and Raven are going to break through her invisible shields.

Magik has got psionic immunity, her mind can't be read or manipulated. Her defenses have worked on both Professor X and Empath, so she is shielded against both telepathy and empathy.

So my team is going to teleport behind your team at the start of the battle, while Susan keeps my team invisible and she protects it with a force field.

The first tactic would be to bring your team and my team to Limbo, where Magik is pretty much omnipotent. Here she will send her demons against your team and she will order them to attack your team to distract them, while Susan uses her force fields to stop Jean's TK. She's already done this, so she should just put a force field around her to make her powerless and then she could put a force field inside her lungs to suffucate her or just use a force field to make her head explode.

While Sue and Jean fight, Magik is going to attack Raven. She's got empathic immunity so part of Raven's powerset is already useless. Then the souldsword is able to harm and to kill any magical being, and Illyana has used it to steal souls, so Raven's soulsef wouldn't hurt Magik, because she should be able to absorb or to destroy it using the sword. Then Illyana can hurt and stop intangible beings, so Raven's intangibility won't help her. So Illyana could just use her sword to hurt her and to kill or she could BFR her in another dimension or somewhere else.

Strange didn't stand a chance against her
She could easily beat Dormammu
She can hurt Kitty....
..and she can't prevent her form phasing
Here she steals souls.

So if Jean was able to stand against Susan(I don't think so, Sue could stop most of her attacks while Jean can't stop all of hers), Magik could always back up her and Sue and Illyana together are strong enough to beat Jean(Illyana could easily make her explode or depower her).

this is outside Limbo, where she is weaker, and against Mercury who is resistant to magic

#9 Posted by dondave (26917 posts) - - Show Bio

This is looking good

#10 Edited by Roddy010 (4931 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha: Very nice post my friend :)

Being far from your team won't be an issue for mine. Magik has got the ability to sense the environment to teleport exactly where she needs, so she will be able to understand where your team is and to teleport exactly in the most usefull position to harm them.

So my team is going to teleport behind your team at the start of the battle, while Susan keeps my team invisible and she protects it with a force field.

The first tactic would be to bring your team and my team to Limbo, where Magik is pretty much omnipotent. Here she will send her demons against your team and she will order them to attack your team to distract them, while Susan uses her force fields to stop Jean's TK. She's already done this, so she should just put a force field around her to make her powerless and then she could put a force field inside her lungs to suffocate her or just use a force field to make her head explode.

Magik may be able to clear the 500 meters but this still doesn't take away Team 1's advantages. They still will be able to locate Team 1 first. Raven can sense the evil that resides within Magik as easily as Jean could sense Susan's thoughts. Once they show up it will be a quick draw from there.

Bringing them to Limbo will be next to impossible. Raven has resisted teleportation before from the Monks of Azar when they tried to banish her from Azarath, also considering the fact that Raven's teleportation is nearly limiteless. She can cross between dimensions as easily as you would walk across the street. So bfr is not an option for Team 2.

Susan's shields are telepathy proof, she was able to resist against Psy-lord telepathy untill he got her put these shields down, so no way Jean and Raven are going to break through her invisible shields.

"Under certain conditions, Sue's psionic energy can counteract or interact with other forms of energy, specifically psionic energy - for instance, a micro-thin force field generated around her head can shield her mind from some forms of telepathic intrusion or influence. By allowing her own psionic energy field to interact with other psionic energy fields, she can sometimes track psionic energy sources over great distances or snare and redirect psionic energies active in her general vicinity." -Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe

Her defense against telepathy/empathy is not an automatic immunity. Her micro-thin force field around her head will take some concentration and this only helps her with "some" forms of telepathic intrusions. Allowing her own psionic energy to interact with Team 1's will leave her wide open for these two to attack. I've seen the scans of her fight with Psy-Lord and honestly this was the only instance that she "blocked" telepathy. I hate to call it PIS but canon has shown telepaths easily bypassing her shield. In Cable #35, Cable able to pull her into the astral plane through her shield. Even with his TO virus ravaging his body. In Fantastic Four #415, Onslaught easily toys with her mind despite her efforts to shield herself and Bishop. In X-Men/Fantastic Four (X4) #1, despite being on the other side of her shield Sue was still greatly effected by Emma's psychic scream. So there you have it, three instances of skilled telepaths bypassing Sue's supposed resistance. If Sue had more resistance feats I would gladly concede but the odds are definitely against her.

Magik has got psionic immunity, her mind can't be read or manipulated. Her defenses have worked on both Professor X and Empath, so she is shielded against both telepathy and empathy.

Nothing in those scan indicate that Magik is immune to telepathy only that she has a very high resistance. Much like the Invisible Woman she has to put a powerful barrier around her mind. She won't have to concentrate like Susan does (which is why it will be easier to attack her first) but her barrier can be breached and when it does she will have to battle for her mind and soul.

Magik and Sue have great defenses however these are no ordinary psychics they are facing. Jean has done feats deemed telepathically impossible and has even bypass immunity on occasion. It's been said time and again that no shield, artificial or natural, can defend against Jean's telepathy.

She's bypass Immunity and High level resistance before.

Emma Frost- Her diamond form makes her completely immune to bot telepathic and Empathic manipulation. Heck she doesn't even need to eat or breath but Jean was still able to bypass her defense on three occasions all taking place in New X-men. After Genosha had been destroyed (with Emma underneath the rubble in her diamond form) Jean was still able to sense her essence. After finding out about Emma and Scott's psychic affair, Jean invaded Emma's mind despite her efforts to resist using her diamond form. Later in this arc, Emma is shot with a diamond bullet and is shattered across the X-mansion floor. Jean was still able to collect her conscouisness and telekinetically put her pieces back together on a molecular level.

*Note Jean didn't possess the Phoenix Force in these scans

Juggernaut- Cain is highly resistant to telepathy and actually has two lines of defense. His helmet (which protects its wearer from any psychic properties) as well as a forcefield composed of mystic energy. Jean was able to bypass his defenses on two seperate occasions.

In X-men #46 A classic showing of Jean bypassing his defenses.
X-men Unlimited #44 Jean carried the minds of Juggernaut and a few children to the astral plane

Magneto- It's a well known fact that Magneto's helmet block telepathic influences. His will power also plays a pivotal role in his high resistance, to the point where he could battle Xavier on the astral plane. In X-men (2nd Series) Jean was able to bypass his defenses and implant illusions of an entire encounter that even included him using his powers to kill Dazzler.

Cipher-She was also able to detect Cipher, whose mutant ability allows her to become completely undetectable both psychically or physically. New X-Men vol.

So as you can see Jean has multiple accounts of bypassing different forms of telepathic resistance/immunity so Magik and Invisible Woman don't really have much of a defense against Jean. I have faith that Jean could breach their defenses. Once those breaches are made they will be open. Raven could implant the pain and suffering of humankind into these two if she chose to, but turning Sue against Magik will be a much easier strategy.

So if Jean was able to stand against Susan(I don't think so, Sue could stop most of her attacks while Jean can't stop all of hers)

Not true. Jean has an excellent offense and defense. Her Tk was strong enough to shield her from Binary's onslaught in space all while telepathically freeing her from possession. So her tk could handle anything Sue throws at her all while reaching into her mind.

#11 Edited by Veitha (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010: this battle is getting good hahaha

Bringing them to Limbo will be next to impossible. Raven has resisted teleportation before from the Monks of Azar when they tried to banish her from Azarath, also considering the fact that Raven's teleportation is nearly limiteless. She can cross between dimensions as easily as you would walk across the street. So bfr is not an option for Team 2.

I may argue that Magik's teleportation skills are better than those of Raven. She is able to teleport through dimensions and she is one of the few teleporters I know that is able to teleport through time, too. So Magik could also BFR Raven and bring her in the past or in the future and she couldn't escape(she has never shown to be able to move through time, right?).

Then she is able to lock Limbo and to make impossible for everyone to move from it, so when your team is getting there Raven's teleporting skills would be useless since Magik can stop her. She was able to stop Doctor Strange during AvX and she has that more than once.

So it's likely that Raven and Jean will be brought inside Limbo very soon and here Illyana will depower Raven and she will make demons go against Jean.

As for Magik's telepathic resistance, she's strong enough to keep Xavier out of her mind and Emma Frost couldn't go inside her mind without permission(I'm looking for the scan of this), and we've seen that Empath's powers don't work on her, so Raven or Jean will at least require time to go through her shields, if they can. And I don't know if they'd like to know that is inside Magik's mind lol.

Now about Sue's shields and Jean's ability to go through psionic shields...

First of all, Emma Frost invading her shield with TP isn't canonic, then in that scan you posted Onsalught didn't seem to be using his TP on her, and she was just using a force field to sound out the environment, so the only issue where her TP shields were bypassed is the one with Cable in it, and even the Marvel Handbook states that she is able to stop telepathic assaults, so it's more likely that occasion was PIS than the one when she used it to stop Psy-Lord. In that scan we can clearly see that she was able to resist his TP powers without effort, so it won't be able to bypass her telepathic defenses for Jean, and it will at least require a bit of time.

Then, when Jean penetrated Emma's diamond form she had the Phoenix Force. I argued about this tons of times but I'm sure she had the Phoenix Force, and I'm going to explain why.

New X-Men 128: Charles Xavier asks Jean is he can talk to the Phoenix Force, after Jean says yes the Phoenix takes controll of her body and she talks stating that Jean is just her avatar and stuff like that, and while she talked her words were inside a black baloon and there was a lot of fire around her. So her connection with the Phoenix already existed.

New X-Men 138: ten issues later Jean attacks Emma and she tells Emma something like "Let's talk, me, you and the Phoenix"(all this in a black baloon again and with the Phoenix Raptor surrounding her).

So I don't understand why people say that Jean didn't have the Phoenix Force, maybe she didn't have the full Force but she had a connection with it and the Phoenix itself stated that Jean was her avatar and that she lived inside her, so that battle happened under the influence of the Phoenix Force. Then when Emma first discovered her diamond mutation she didn't have the telepathic immunity she has now, so when Emma was found back in Genosha it was likely that she didn't have the full immunity she has today.

Then the cases with Juggernaut and Magneto's helmet seem like PIS to me, Juggernaut itself says that Xavier could do the same to him while it's not true, so it looks more like PIS to me than true ability to break through their shields.

Anyway, she will require time to bypass her psionic defenses, while Sue wasn't shown to be slow during her battle with Psy-Lord, and she was skilled enough to multy-taks too, so she will be able to fight against Jean while defending herself from her TP.

Not true. Jean has an excellent offense and defense. Her Tk was strong enough to shield her from Binary's onslaught in space all while telepathically freeing her from possession. So her tk could handle anything Sue throws at her all while reaching into her mind

Shielding herself from Binary's attacks is good and all(I think that some of Sue's attacks are stronger than Binary's) but she has no defense against a bubble inside her lungs or inside her head, and this is a morals off battle so it'l likely that Sue will use this attack on her and she will need less than a moment to finish her.

Another example of Force Field inside someone's body

So, Sue will create a shield around herself and Illyana at the start of the battle, so they'll be resistant if not immune to your team's psionic attacks, then Illyana will teleport near them. She should be able to slain Raven very soon using her sword(she can hurt Dormammu and depower the Juggernaut with it, and she can also threaten Mephisto in his own realm, where he is the strongest being, so it would easily work against Raven), and then Magik and Sue could attack Jean and Sue could always kill her using a force field inside her body or Magik could BFR her somewhere else or use a spell to make her explode. Then Magik could always bring the battle in Limbo where she could depower your team or use demons against them.

Against Mephisto
Depowering an army of Dire Wraiths
Depowering and beating Amora

And teledismembering is always a available for Magik...

#12 Posted by Roddy010 (4931 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha: Yes It Is ...:)

I may argue that Magik's teleportation skills are better than those of Raven. She is able to teleport through dimensions and she is one of the few teleporters I know that is able to teleport through time, too. So Magik could also BFR Raven and bring her in the past or in the future and she couldn't escape(she has never shown to be able to move through time, right?).

That's definitely up for debate and I wouldn't place Magik higher than Raven. They both have the same amount of range and potential in the teleportation department. Raven's teleportation derive from extra-dimensional energy and can traverse time/space. Her soul also inhabits the space that separates Earth-1 from every other dimension and is completely undetectable when she is teleporting. Not even Monitor could locate her in the multiverse. Take note that Monitor is capable of sensing occurances throughout the multiverse and has even destroyed Flash (who had just broken the time stream) from another universe.

This won't matter anyway since Raven has already shown the ability to resist teleportation from multiple Monks on Azarath, so BFR is not an option for Team 2.

As for Magik's telepathic resistance, she's strong enough to keep Xavier out of her mind and Emma Frost couldn't go inside her mind without permission(I'm looking for the scan of this), and we've seen that Empath's powers don't work on her, so Raven or Jean will at least require time to go through her shields, if they can. And I don't know if they'd like to know that is inside Magik's mind lol

Yes they will. There has been no concrete evidence to prove that Jean couldn't breach Magik's defenses. Jean has shown on multiple accounts to bypass resistance/immunity of different forms.

Now about Sue's shields and Jean's ability to go through psionic shields...

First of all, Emma Frost invading her shield with TP isn't canonic,

Not Sure where you got this from, but X-men/Fantatstic Four is indeed canon. The arc referenced many events that took place within continuity including Xavier leaving the school, Cyclops and Emma Frost becoming Headmaster/Headmistress, Jean Grey's death in New X-men as well as Sue and Namor's "close" relationship. There was also no indication that the arc took place in a different universe than 616, so it is definitely applicable here.

then in that scan you posted Onsalught didn't seem to be using his TP on her, and she was just using a force field to sound out the environment

Sue used her force field to probe the room of psionic intrusions and failed. Onslaught was able to bypass her supposed resitant shields and plant illusions in her mind. This also wasn't the only instance Onslaught bypassed her shields. Later in this same arc, Sue along with Cable and Apocolypse tried to confront Onslaught, but he just creates psionic projections of Hulk,Magneto and Post within their minds. So twice has Onslaught bypass her shields.

so the only issue where her TP shields were bypassed is the one with Cable in it, and even the Marvel Handbook states that she is able to stop telepathic assaults, so it's more likely that occasion was PIS than the one when she used it to stop Psy-Lord. In that scan we can clearly see that she was able to resist his TP powers without effort, so it won't be able to bypass her telepathic defenses for Jean, and it will at least require a bit of time.

Hardly PIS at all. We have multiple showings of powerful telepaths bypassing her shields (None of them required any time to do so.) and only one instance of her supposedly "blocking" telepathy. I'd call the Psy-Lord scan PIS since this is the ONLY instance her telepathic resistance is even mentioned. If Sue had more feats to back up her defenses I'd more than likely concede, however canon has shown that Sue's defense can be breached so she is still vulnerable to both Jean and Raven.

Then, when Jean penetrated Emma's diamond form she had the Phoenix Force. I argued about this tons of times but I'm sure she had the Phoenix Force

I believe you and I had this debate before and my point still stands.

@Veitha: You are seriously misinterpreting those scans. Jean only used her tk to move Emma and her chair to face her. In fact Emma was still on the ground (in diamond form) when Jean invaded her mind. I'd also like to point out that Jean didn't have any of the Phoenix during this run. It wasn't until NXM #148 did she gain the force. All of the Phoenix manifestations were her powers performing at their peak thus creating the Phoenix raptor which she has done many times on the astral plane.

Jean was at the height of her mutation, which manifested itself as the Phoenix. Jean has often referred to herself as well as her power manifesting at it's peak to this same force. (She even adopted the codename "Phoenix" for years after DPS). So don't get confused with writer's play on words. If you read this arc you would know Jean didn't actually obtain the force until NXM #148. The actual force was waiting for her in the sun.

Jean is an omega lvl mutant. That is why she got through Emma's diamond form.

Then when Emma first discovered her diamond mutation she didn't have the telepathic immunity she has now, so when Emma was found back in Genosha it was likely that she didn't have the full immunity she has today.

Emma's telepathic immunity was not something that was developed. It was discovered meaning that she always had but was unaware of it. Immunity is not something you develop, you either have it or not. In Emma's case her diamond form blocks out all forms of psionic energy yet Jean bypassed this immunity.

Then the cases with Juggernaut and Magneto's helmet seem like PIS to me, Juggernaut itself says that Xavier could do the same to him while it's not true, so it looks more like PIS to me than true ability to break through their shields.

Calling instances that have happened on more than one occasion is a little asinine. None of these are examples of PIS. Jean has consistent showings of bypassing psychic defense of a variety of sources, be it mystic, energy or tech. She's broken through both their shields on two seperate occasions so PIS is not applicable here.

Shielding herself from Binary's attacks is good and all(I think that some of Sue's attacks are stronger than Binary's) but she has no defense against a bubble inside her lungs or inside her head, and this is a morals off battle so it'l likely that Sue will use this attack on her and she will need less than a moment to finish her.

The FF #286 scan is brought up in nearly every battle involving Sue and Jean but people often over look X-men Annual # 14.

Note that Jean didn't possess telepathy at this time, but her telekinesis has withstood and countered Sue's shields.

#13 Posted by Veitha (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010: I won't be able to answer very soon, sorry but I'm a bit busy these days :)

#14 Posted by Roddy010 (4931 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha: Its okay I understand lol The thread will always be here and I am ready to reply when you are. " Have fun with those errands!"

#15 Posted by Roddy010 (4931 posts) - - Show Bio

And why aren't people voting? Lol

#16 Edited by Veitha (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010: sorry for the long waiting :)

That's definitely up for debate and I wouldn't place Magik higher than Raven. They both have the same amount of range and potential in the teleportation department. Raven's teleportation derive from extra-dimensional energy and can traverse time/space. Her soul also inhabits the space that separates Earth-1 from every other dimension and is completely undetectable when she is teleporting. Not even Monitor could locate her in the multiverse. Take note that Monitor is capable of sensing occurances throughout the multiverse and has even destroyed Flash (who had just broken the time stream) from another universe.

This won't matter anyway since Raven has already shown the ability to resist teleportation from multiple Monks on Azarath, so BFR is not an option for Team 2.

I have never seen Raven travelling across time, while Magik is able to teleport through time, space, dimensions and also travel inside someone's mind. And she could even kill Raven and Jean the moment when they born lol

Anyway, Magik is going to kill Raven at the very start of the battle without her knowing this is happening. She's got telepathic resistance and empathic immunity, so she will be able to teleport behind Raven before Jean could reach her mind, and then she will slain Raven with the Soulsword, and I have already shown you scans of her defeating Dormammu and threating Mephisto in his own dimension with it, so Raven isn't going to be able to resist to it. Magik has got a way to counter most of her powers(she can absorb souls, prevent teleporting and also phasing, and she's immune to empathic powers), so Raven is going to be killed very soon, in a matter of seconds.

This will leave Jean against my entire team.

Not Sure where you got this from, but X-men/Fantatstic Four is indeed canon. The arc referenced many events that took place within continuity including Xavier leaving the school, Cyclops and Emma Frost becoming Headmaster/Headmistress, Jean Grey's death in New X-men as well as Sue and Namor's "close" relationship. There was also no indication that the arc took place in a different universe than 616, so it is definitely applicable here

Well every time someone used it in the battle board it was stated to be not canhonical, I'll find the thread were it was proved(I think it's the Emma Frost vs Invisible Woman thread).

About Emma and Jean, I've got only one thing to say: Jean had the Phoenix Force ten issues before she used her telepathy against Emma, so why shouldn't she have it when she fought against her? And the baloon when she says "I, you and The Phoenix" is black, and the black ballon indicates that she's linked with the Phoenix Force.

And yes, Emma's immunity was improved through the years. She had only resistance when she first developed her mutations(Martha Johanson could bypas her psionic defenses, and she's not nearly as strong as Emma or Jean), while now she is full immune to it(she has resisted to an army of Sinister clones without showing effort, she's shown to be completely immune).

Sue used her force field to probe the room of psionic intrusions and failed. Onslaught was able to bypass her supposed resitant shields and plant illusions in her mind. This also wasn't the only instance Onslaught bypassed her shields. Later in this same arc, Sue along with Cable and Apocolypse tried to confront Onslaught, but he just creates psionic projections of Hulk,Magneto and Post within their minds. So twice has Onslaught bypass her shields.

Well, to me it seemed like she was using her shields to detect Onlsaught physically in case he was cloacked. And then I don't think that Onslaught should be used as a point of reference, he has shown to be stronger than Jean Grey(hasn't he owned her, too, and bypassed her psionic resistance with ease?) and most of Marvel Telepaths.

The about all the "that is PIS and tha's not" stuff, in the first scan of Juggernaut you showed, Marko says that Professor X could do the same thing to him, so it' more likely the writer had forgot about his telepathic immunity, and so Jean has bypassed his shields only once, and it looks like PIS.

Invisible Woman can block telepathic attacks, she's done that and the Marvel Handbooks state so, so the only times she's been bypassed(in that scan of Onslaught it doesn't seem so) it was against Cable(PIS or bad writing, writers often forget about her powers) and against Onslaught(could you post the scans of her second battle against him, just to see them) who has also shown to be stronger than Jean.

In the battle against Jean and Invisible Woman(she was possessed by Malice, wasn't she?) Jean was able to react against an invisible beam of energy, while Sue won't do this in the battle. She will create force fields inside her body and she will kill her instantly. Remember that while Sue has got a defense against her powers and it will require at least some moments to Jean to bypass them, Jean has got no defences against that kind of attack. And she has got no defence against BFR, while Magik has got resistance to Telepathic assaults, so, as for Invisible Woman, Jean will require some moments to bypass them whereas Magik will need less than a second to teleport her away.

To sum up, Raven will be slain at the very start of the battle by Magik will Sue and Jean fight. As I said, my main advantage is my team has got resistance against the powers of yours, while your team has no resistance, so I've got a big advantage because my team won't have to lose time bypassing shields or stuff like this, while your team will. And so Jean will be BFRed or killed using a force field inside her body very soon, she has no way to react to something like this.

I think we're running circles lol, should we start voting?

#17 Edited by Roddy010 (4931 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha: yes we should definitely start voting. I'll respond once I'm home :)

#18 Posted by Roddy010 (4931 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha: Ok back to the debate.

I have never seen Raven travelling across time, while Magik is able to teleport through time, space, dimensions and also travel inside someone's mind. And she could even kill Raven and Jean the moment when they born lol

Raven's ports traverse time and space due to her source being extra-dimensional energy. This means her ports travel beyond time and space and into the realms of the known and unknown. The proof is in the Monitor scan. Monitor has omniscience on a multiversal scale. He's able to find anyone no matter the time period or dimension they reside, and yet he was unable to find even a trace of Raven. No matter where Magik ports her she will be able to return or resist her ports in the first place.

Anyway, Magik is going to kill Raven at the very start of the battle without her knowing this is happening. She's got telepathic resistance and empathic immunity, so she will be able to teleport behind Raven before Jean could reach her mind, and then she will slain Raven with the Soulsword, and I have already shown you scans of her defeating Dormammu and threating Mephisto in his own dimension with it, so Raven isn't going to be able to resist to it. Magik has got a way to counter most of her powers(she can absorb souls, prevent teleporting and also phasing, and she's immune to empathic powers), so Raven is going to be killed very soon, in a matter of seconds.

While I agree that Magik is a definite threat to Raven with her soul sword, I doubt Jean will let her teammate (whose she's psionically linked to) get close enough for Magik to use it. Jean is no amateur and she knows what Magik is capable of so she won't leave Raven in the dark about the soul sword. Also Raven ports just as fast as Magik and will have no problem dodging. She's been able to dodge lightning and energy beams, Magik with her sword should be no problem.

Well every time someone used it in the battle board it was stated to be not canhonical, I'll find the thread were it was proved(I think it's the Emma Frost vs Invisible Woman thread).

Lol yeah I think I read that thread. SoS was just trolling but the scan is definitely canon.

About Emma and Jean, I've got only one thing to say: Jean had the Phoenix Force ten issues before she used her telepathy against Emma, so why shouldn't she have it when she fought against her? And the baloon when she says "I, you and The Phoenix" is black, and the black ballon indicates that she's linked with the Phoenix Force.

Jean didn't get the Phoenix Force until NXM #150. She had to die in order to gain the force. Before that it was established that her powers formed the Phoenix raptor as a by-product of tk/tp working at their peak. Beast explained this as a secondary mutation in the New X-men Arc.

And yes, Emma's immunity was improved through the years. She had only resistance when she first developed her mutations(Martha Johanson could bypas her psionic defenses, and she's not nearly as strong as Emma or Jean), while now she is full immune to it(she has resisted to an army of Sinister clones without showing effort, she's shown to be completely immune).

Cassandra Nova wasn't able to bypass her diamond form in New X-men and her telepathy is at least on par with Xavier himself. So her resistance was established at that time.

Well, to me it seemed like she was using her shields to detect Onlsaught physically in case he was cloacked. And then I don't think that Onslaught should be used as a point of reference, he has shown to be stronger than Jean Grey(hasn't he owned her, too, and bypassed her psionic resistance with ease?) and most of Marvel Telepaths. Invisible Woman can block telepathic attacks, she's done that and the Marvel Handbooks state so, so the only times she's been bypassed(in that scan of Onslaught it doesn't seem so) it was against Cable(PIS or bad writing, writers often forget about her powers) and against Onslaught(could you post the scans of her second battle against him, just to see them) who has also shown to be stronger than Jean.

The handbook clearly states Sue can block some telepathic intrusion, not all. Meaning that a powerful enough telepath could bypass her defenses with no problem. I don't have all the scans but it took place in Fantastic Four #415 if you want to check it out.

Going into battle against a powerful telepath without some sort of shield would be completely asinine on Sue's part. And why shouldn't Onslaught be referenced? Psi-Lord is an omega lvl mutant and he was referenced to show her impenetrable resistance, however four instances have proven otherwise. If a telepath is powerful enough they could breach Sue's defenses.

The about all the "that is PIS and tha's not" stuff, in the first scan of Juggernaut you showed, Marko says that Professor X could do the same thing to him, so it' more likely the writer had forgot about his telepathic immunity, and so Jean has bypassed his shields only once, and it looks like PIS.

I showed two instances of Jean bypassing Juggernaut's defenses. Those two instances showed that Jean is powerful enough to breach his defenses. I wouldn't call that PIS.

In the battle against Jean and Invisible Woman(she was possessed by Malice, wasn't she?) Jean was able to react against an invisible beam of energy, while Sue won't do this in the battle. She will create force fields inside her body and she will kill her instantly.

No the scans show that Jean is able to counter and block any force field Sue throws at her. Let's also not forget that Jean Grey has telekinesis on the atomic level.

Remember that while Sue has got a defense against her powers and it will require at least some moments to Jean to bypass them, Jean has got no defences against that kind of attack. And she has got no defence against BFR, while Magik has got resistance to Telepathic assaults, so, as for Invisible Woman, Jean will require some moments to bypass them whereas Magik will need less than a second to teleport her away.

Jean Grey has a defense against Sue's shield just as Raven has a defense against Magik's stepping disc. Plus they have a better sense communication. I don't see Team 2 with the advantage. Neither one of these ladies have the actual feats to put their defenses beyond Jean Grey's mental prowess. Jean on the other hand has numerous feats bypassing telepathic resistance and immunity. Each feat required little to no time at all to accomplished so I don't see Magik and/or Sue's defenses being any trouble.

LET THE VOTING BEGIN DAMMIT! Lol

#19 Posted by Veitha (2332 posts) - - Show Bio
#20 Edited by dondave (26917 posts) - - Show Bio
#21 Posted by Roddy010 (4931 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Posted by Roddy010 (4931 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright we got one vote :)

Veitha- 1

Roddy010- 0

#23 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay -- read through this twice - great points -- I am going with Veitha although it was painful for me to considering how much I love Jean, lol. But I am basing my vote on the arguments presented, trust me. :)

I am surprised you didn't present Sue's ability to create air bubbles inside a person (ala, Wolverine when she immobilized him) -- that could have taken care of Jean instantly.

k - I will shut up now - again @veitha

#24 Posted by Pokergeist (22329 posts) - - Show Bio

Veitha has my vote.

#25 Edited by Blacharrt1 (751 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Roddy, solely because of Jean. Magik is highly resistant to telepathy but it's mostly because of her training with Belasco, and Limbo Storm. Also the stuff in her head is very disturbing which is why Emma doesn't want to go in there. You have shown great counters for Sue's forcefield. But I have no doubt that Magik would beat Raven. But you have proven that Raven could sense her and magik couldn't sneak up on her, which is invaluable or teleport them to Limbo, which would make this a much harder fight for Team 2.

#26 Posted by Veitha (2332 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: thanks for the vote :) well, about the air bubles I've shown some feats of her creating a buble inside somebody, and Jean's head exploding would be as effective ;)

@blacharrt1: @cadencev2: @dondave: thanks for voting, guys :)

Veitha 4 - Roddy010 1

#27 Posted by YoungJustice (6388 posts) - - Show Bio

Veitha for me, gg.

Online
#28 Edited by Outside_85 (7120 posts) - - Show Bio

I am fairly non-experienced with threads like these, but here what I think;

Veitha makes greats points for the strengths of his/her team, but I don't think the team has near enough to cope with the fight at hand. So I give it to Roddy010.

#29 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha said:

@lykopis: thanks for the vote :) well, about the air bubles I've shown some feats of her creating a buble inside somebody, and Jean's head exploding would be as effective ;)

LOL -- yes. true that.

#30 Posted by Veitha (2332 posts) - - Show Bio
#31 Posted by Roddy010 (4931 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks to everyone for voting hopefully we can get some more votes. This was a well put together battle. :)

#32 Posted by time (4576 posts) - - Show Bio

Roddy010 team would win, cause of Jean Grey, Jean Grey is a very powerful telepah even without the Pheonix Force. I don't think Magik or Susan could beat her.

#33 Edited by Veitha (2332 posts) - - Show Bio
#34 Posted by Juiceboks (5984 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote goes to Veitha. One of the reasons being while Roddy seemed to focus more on Jean's offensive capabilities rather than Raven's, Veitha effectively covered both Magik and Sue's ways of killing the others.

#35 Posted by oceanmaster21 (6337 posts) - - Show Bio

veitha has my vote

#36 Posted by Angryprune (606 posts) - - Show Bio

Veitha

#37 Edited by Backflip (2251 posts) - - Show Bio

To make it almost final, I'm backing Veitha. Roddy made a good case, but Sue is in many way, the anthithesis of his psychics and will effectively dismantle them as Veitha pointed out.

#38 Posted by ComicStooge (9741 posts) - - Show Bio
#39 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio
#40 Edited by Roddy010 (4931 posts) - - Show Bio
#41 Posted by Avenger85 (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

Gotto go with team Roddy here :P

Sorry Veitha, but would have gone with you had you had someone more powerful than Susan Storm on your team ;)

#42 Edited by God_Spawn (35985 posts) - - Show Bio

Regardless of who I think wins as far as teams go and certain points I may or may not disagree with, I think Roddy's veteran ability showed here, but I do feel like @veitha had the overall better argument. Kudos to her and I'm glad to see her getting some solid experiences in the battle forum.

Moderator
#43 Edited by PowerHerc (78172 posts) - - Show Bio

Invisible Woman wins.

#44 Posted by sync1 (2154 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha gets my vote. Good debate though, Roddy.

#45 Posted by sync1 (2154 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha gets my vote. Good debate though, Roddy.

#46 Edited by Crimsonlord53 (1213 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry too close to call imo.

Great debate.

#47 Posted by Veitha (2332 posts) - - Show Bio
#48 Edited by chiq (1788 posts) - - Show Bio

@veitha: Im going with Veitha, his/her team seemed to have more options available to them. Good debate on both sides though...

#49 Posted by Son Of Storm (11251 posts) - - Show Bio

http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/151463-1/Head_explodes.gif

Tis too close to call. All four woman are complete and utter badasses and both debaters are top notch.

#50 Posted by Sovereign91001 (3368 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010: @veitha: Sorry forgot to vote ^_^;

Anywho this is an interesting debate on the one hand I feel Jean has the advantage in this conflict on paper however on the argument side of things I believe @veitha has the edge. That said argument always has to trump opinion on character so my vote is going to @veitha.

@roddy010 You put up a solid case as well so you have nothing to be ashamed of.

Good job both of you.