As surprising as it may seem, this is my first CaV despite being on this site for almost two years now. This CaV will be comprised of two physically impressive combatants and I and Hulkage will display our debating skills to the best of our abilities through them.
This'll be one too keep an eye on... Sadly I don't think I can be T4Vd due too being very busy with Voting, tournaments, CaVs etc. But perhaps, I'll end up asking for a tag anyways LOL.
@unbreakable_fs4 Here we go. A lot of this opener is going to be from my other CAV with stuff added to it. No point in doing the same work twice.
Rock Lee
Rock Lee is a shinobi (fancy word for ninja) from the popular anime/manga, Naruto. Don't let the word ninja fool you though, even the weakest ninjas have physical attributes comparable to Captain America. Oh and did I mention that they can also do a ton of other things like breathe fire, walk on water, and summon giant two hundred feet amphibians (the last one wasn't a joke). But Rock Lee is a very unique ninja. He can't do things like breathe fire or summon amphibious creatures, he doesn't have any ninjutsu (just the fancy name for all of those abilities), and he can't use genjutsu either (basically a form of telepathy/mindrape). So he had to work at it each day: sweating, crying, and bleeding. And when he finished, long after everyone else had tucked into bed, he would go home, go to sleep, and do it all over again the next morning. He kept at it until he became a master of taijutsu, which is basically H2H combat that utilizes ones chakra (nature and spiritual energy that allows these "ninja" to to extraordinary things) in order to maximize ones speed, agility, durability, and striking. He becomes one of the best H2H combatants in the whole series at the ripe age of 13. In fact in just H2H skill alone, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone from any publishing company that could best him.
Speed:
Most Shinobi are fast (I'll get into more depth later on) but Lee isn't most Shinobi. He's way faster. In his very first story arc he was shown to have at combat/reaction speed at Mach 1 at the very least.
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Here he moves to fast for these Sound Ninja to keep up with. He is even able to react to and dodge and attack that was stated to be as fast as sound (Mach 1) on panel. Oh and by the way, this is after all of his muscles go torn to shreds due to using the Initial Lotus. Keep in mind that this is Lee at one of his earliest showings.
Durability:
Go view the scene above and you'll see that he is still capable of fighting after all of his muscles are torn to shreds. He already has above peak human durability, but his ability to fight through pain is what makes him so tough to put down. It gets better, but where's the fun in giving everything away all at once?
Striking:
He has great striking feats. I mean he can really pack a punch.
Here we have him sending Kimimaro flying.
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Well whats so special about Kimimaro?
He could easily no sell a bunch of KNO Naruto clones.
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Who in turn could do this...
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Size of Snake:
Strength:
He has superhuman level strength. For example, he constantly wears ankle weights during training, fights and everyday life. That may not sound impressive, until you realize that his weights are this heavy:
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Oh and not to mention the Mach 1 feat you saw earlier was performed with these absurdly heavy weights on.
Gates:
Lee, through mastery of taijutsu, became able to open the gates. The gates are chakra restrictors that keep the chakra flow limited to a set amount in order to not do too much strain on the body. By opening or unleashing a gate, the brains natural limitations set on the body are released and allows the chakra to flow more freely. Each gate that is released gives the body a physical amp, a serious physical amp, but also has negative affects on the body.
As you can see in the scan, ones power and stats are increased "tens of times more than usual". Lee can open up to the fifth gate at this point. And when he opens the gates, which will be shown later on in this CaV, the results are jawdropping.
This should be a good starting point for Lee's abilities. The ball is in your court.
Touta Kanoe is the grandson of Negi Springfield. Touta is an outspoken cheerful character and the main protagonist in the manga, UQ Holder. After his parent's death two years ago in a car accident, Touta was granted immortality by his current guardian and mentor Evangeline A.K. McDowell. He is a member of the immortal organization UQ Holder (Eternal Holder).
Before I begin I'd like to note that if you're unfamiliar with the reading format of Mangas (Japanese comics), the panels are read from right to left rather than left to right, like in traditional comics. The scans will be posted moving the usual left to right but the panels in the scans should be read right to left.
Speed
Touta is incredibly fast. While already being fast due to his training with his guardian, Touta can increase his speed by focusing ki to his feet in a technique called “Instant Movement”
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Touta attacks Evangeline and even with little sword training he is skilled. He displays his combat speed by delivering seven full swings and counters before touching the ground.
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Strength
Touta possesses an enormous degree of physical strength. He easily trains with huge masses of metal weights, swinging them effortlessly
He has displayed the capacity to easily lift a semi truck without its cargo. Standard cargo-less semi trucks usually weigh in at around 20,000 lbs (10 tons)
Durability
Tanks a pressurized air blast that sends him flying thousands of feet into the scrap filled forest and returns completely unharmed
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I'm sure you may be thinkig; "It's just pressurized air," but before Touta was hit with this attack, the attack was shown to pack such a punch that it could literally tear half of a large church building clean off.
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Skills
Touta is someone that could be regarded as a genius when it comes to fighting. His skills are unparalleled when the amount of training is taken into consideration. Throughout his entire life, he has only trained for two years, yet is extremely capable in combat
Touta displays his H2H skills against Evangeline. He attacks and evades leaving afterimages. He hits her hard enough that when she blocks the strike, the ground falls apart below them.
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After taking a hit that sends him flying through solid concrete, he displays his incredible battle sense by reacting and dodging attacks from Kuroumaru, a super human opponent who could move fast enough to literally disappear from Touta's vision. He even goes as far as to parry his opponent's sword strike with his bare hands.
This instinctive advantage will prove useful if Lee opens multiple gate and attempts to overwhelm Touta with speed.
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He displays further battle competence by strategically disarming himself in order to create a distraction for the faster opponent before him. He then displays even more martial arts knowledge, using techniques similar to Capoeira
And all this takes place while they both move at superhuman speed, leaving afterimages
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I'll touch more on skill as we go further into the debate.
Striking
One of the more important aspect of combat, the level damage one can inflict on his/her opponent with each blow
Lucky for Touta, he hits hard...very hard.
Here, Touta moves so fast that just by stopping his forward momentum, the ground below his feet crumble as he hits his opponent so hard that he sends him flying into a van, sending the van into the air as well
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Touta realizes just how hard he hits, so he takes caution when going against regular people. And when I say regular people, I am refering to magic users, who are all peak to super human.
He doesn't even physically hit his opponent here but simply swings his palm and the sheer force and speed of his swing cause enough air pressure to knock a formidable magic user hundreds of feet in the air.
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I'll reserve the more impressive feats for the later portion of our debate :)
Gravity Blade
Touta wields a mystical blade called the Gravity Blade. As its name suggests, it manipulates gravity to alter its weight and the wielder has to be inconceivably strong and very skilled to wield the blade to its full potential. The base weight of the Katana is 2 lbs
A small taste of Touta wielding the blade...
It was stated that to wield the blade at 2000 times its normal weight (2 tons) it would take a whole year but Touta displays his combat proficiency and talent by mastering the blade at 2000 times its weight in only one month. He was able to effortlessly swing the 2 ton blade with one hand
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With a simple casual swing, the speed of Touta's blade alone causes enough air pressure to cut a massive boulder to pieces. He then proceeds to displays some nice striking feats for good measure haha
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I'll touch more on the blade and Touta's capabilities while wielding it, as the debate goes on.
Touta is incredibly fast. While already being fast due to his training with his guardian, Touta can increase his speed by focusing ki to his feet in a technique called “Instant Movement”
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Touta attacks Evangeline and even with little sword training he is skilled. He displays his combat speed by delivering seven full swings and counters before touching the ground.
Being fast isn't going to cut it. Lee has Mach 1 speed/reaction/combat feats with weights that weigh tons after having all of his muscles shredded to bits. Without weights Lee was easily outpacing Gaara's sand which was fast enough to protect against point blank explosions and easily outpace sound.
And when Lee takes off the weights he makes the sand move much to slow to tag him. Lee becomes the first person in history to make contact with Gaara.
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*See how I'm giving the fight in segments instead of just linking the whole thing? Leaves the readers in suspense.
After taking a hit that sends him flying through solid concrete, he displays his incredible battle sense by reacting and dodging attacks from Kuroumaru, a super human opponent who could move fast enough to literally disappear from Touta's vision. He even goes as far as to parry his opponent's sword strike with his bare hands.
This instinctive advantage will prove useful if Lee opens multiple gate and attempts to overwhelm Touta with speed.
Lee replicated Kuroumaru's feat as soon as he took the weights off. Gaara lost sight of him when Gaara was clearly able to react and perceive attacks faster than sound as well. Lee, when he opens gates was proving too fast for the audience to keep up with and no one, except Guy and Kakashi with his Sharingan out could even keep up with him.
He displays further battle competence by strategically disarming himself in order to create a distraction for the faster opponent before him. He then displays even more martial arts knowledge, using techniques similar to Capoeira
And all this takes place while they both move at superhuman speed, leaving afterimages
This is great, but Lee was one of the best H2H fighters at the age of 13. Haku was leaving afterimages as well and Lee far exceeds her in that category.
One of the more important aspect of combat, the level damage one can inflict on his/her opponent with each blow
Lucky for Touta, he hits hard...very hard.
Here, Touta moves so fast that just by stopping his forward momentum, the ground below his feet crumble as he hits his opponent so hard that he sends him flying into a van, sending the van into the air as well.
That is all great, but you see Lee is good at stopping strikes. He uses the chakra in his arms to amp his durability and absorb the force from such blows.
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Here is how powerful Sasuke's kicks are....
Even Sasuke was suprised that Lee could effortlessly block it and cancel out its force.
Gravity Blade
Touta wields a mystical blade called the Gravity Blade. As its name suggests, it manipulates gravity to alter its weight and the wielder has to be inconceivably strong and very skilled to wield the blade to its full potential. The base weight of the Katana is 2 lbs
A small taste of Touta wielding the blade...
It was stated that to wield the blade at 2000 times its normal weight (2 tons) it would take a whole year but Touta displays his combat proficiency and talent by mastering the blade at 2000 times its weight in only one month. He was able to effortlessly swing the 2 ton blade with one hand
I see no reason why it would affect Lee when the weights that he wears on his legs are similar in weight if not greater. But alas, he must tag Lee first for this to even be a factor.
Show far Lee has superior speed, durability, striking, and skill. You're up.
Being fast isn't going to cut it. Lee has Mach 1 speed/reaction/combat feats with weights that weigh tons after having all of his muscles shredded to bits. Without weights Lee was easily outpacing Gaara's sand which was fast enough to protect against point blank explosions and easily outpace sound.
Where exactly does Lee display this Mach 1 speed with weights on and torn muscles?
The showing you're referring to does not display Lee reacting, or fighting at the speed of sound with weights on and torn muscles. The sound Ninja he's facing does not move or fight at the speed of sound. That's a misinterpretation.
When the ninja says his attacks are at the speed of sound, he was referring to the device on his forearm that emits sonic sound waves that attack the inner ear, disrupting an individuals balance. That is why when Lee easily dodged his strike, he was shaken up after getting bombarded with the sonic attack.
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As for Gaara's feat, yes it is quite impressive for the auto-shield to defend against the explosion enacted by his Aunt. Though it is important to note that Gaara was well aware that the explosion was coming after conversing with his aunt as she revealed the bombs to him.
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And when Lee takes off the weights he makes the sand move much to slow to tag him. Lee becomes the first person in history to make contact with Gaara.
The speed in which Lee moves with his weight off is not much different from what Touta has displayed considering he has had entire fights while faster than sound and this is even more evident as each of Touta and his opponent's blows can be seen causing sonic booms and produce shock-waves, even when hitting nothing but air.
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And this is not even the peak of his speed...which I will get into as the debate moves along.
*See how I'm giving the fight in segments instead of just linking the whole thing? Leaves the readers in suspense.
I truly appreciate that, and I'm sure the readers will as well :)
Lee replicated Kuroumaru's feat as soon as he took the weights off. Gaara lost sight of him when Gaara was clearly able to react and perceive attacks faster than sound as well. Lee, when he opens gates was proving too fast for the audience to keep up with and no one, except Guy and Kakashi with his Sharingan out could even keep up with him.
Yes, and the fact he replicated the feat done by Kuroumaru (The sword wielding, long haired opponent of Touta's, in case the readers are unaware) and yet Touta was still able to react and evade the attacks on instincts alone, while being unable to see only proves that the tactic will mean little against Touta. Especially bearing in mind that at that early point in Touta's life, he did not have knowledge of how to proficiently manipulate his ki in order to move at high speeds. Unlike then, he currently does have this knowledge.
This is great, but Lee was one of the best H2H fighters at the age of 13. Haku was leaving afterimages as well and Lee far exceeds her in that category.
Impressive but the same can be said for Touta, and this fact gets remarked on numerous times by each of his opponents, as the scan above shows and even as his instructor has comment on as she spared with him (Also posted above in my intro).
That is all great, but you see Lee is good at stopping strikes. He uses the chakra in his arms to amp his durability and absorb the force from such blows
Here is how powerful Sasuke's kicks are....
Even Sasuke was suprised that Lee could effortlessly block it and cancel out its force.
Two very different feats, as Sasuke had quite a bit of forward momentum when he struck the bear as opposed to him being stationary when Lee stopped his kick. Still an impressive feat nonetheless, though nothing compared to what Touta has done
While extremely weakened to the point that he struggled to even stand, as a result of fighting two consecutive battles, he still manages to hit so had that the ground is completely destroyed and the shock-wave alone sends three armored tanks flying into the air.
I highly doubt Lee will be catching these strikes with his bare hands anytime soon.
I see no reason why it would affect Lee when the weights that he wears on his legs are similar in weight if not greater. But alas, he must tag Lee first for this to even be a factor.
They would be similar in weight if the best Touta could wields the Gravity Blade on was only 2 tons. Unfortunately for Lee, this is not even close to being the case.
Touta has shown to be able to wield the blade easily, even at 500 tons
What you see him cutting through is a magic shield that in previous pages, tanked an energy beam from a satellite, stated on panel to be able to destroy the massive port they were on. Do note that I am not implying that Touta has that type of damage output but when all the force is focused on such as small area by a blade, more stress will be undoubtedly exerted on said area.
To get an idea of the damage output from Touta's sword swing, the tower-like object next to the impacted area is called the Orbital Elevator, and the base of the tower is rather large, to the point of dwarfing skyscrapers
Yet, the impact from Touta's Gravity Blade can be seen almost at half the size of the base of the tower.
Show far Lee has superior speed, durability, striking, and skill. You're up.
Sadly, none of this is actually the case, and I'm unsure as to what allowed you to come to the conclusion of Lee having better durability, considering you've shown nothing to suggest as such other than the unsatisfactory catching a kick scan.
Speed is another factor that Touta should eclipse Lee in.
Touta blitzes a guy who could easily move faster than sound, grabbing him by the neck and throwing him through numerous buildings, then covering the massive distance between them both before the guy could even move again. Touta then proceeds to blitz him with punches and each punch can be seen causing sonic booms, and ultimately leveling an entire building.
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If you're in doubt about his opponent's speed...
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With all these factors in Touta's favor, it's clear he holds the advantage over Lee. Not to mention his immense regenerative capabilities, such as reforming a destroyed heart, reattaching limbs, and even his head. Yes, he can be incapacitated but I highly doubt Lee has the damage output to do such a thing based on what you have shown in regards to his striking capabilities.
Where exactly does Lee display this Mach 1 speed with weights on and torn muscles?
The showing you're referring to does not display Lee reacting, or fighting at the speed of sound with weights on and torn muscles. The sound Ninja he's facing does not move or fight at the speed of sound. That's a misinterpretation.
When the ninja says his attacks are at the speed of sound, he was referring to the device on his forearm that emits sonic sound waves that attack the inner ear, disrupting an individuals balance. That is why when Lee easily dodged his strike, he was shaken up after getting bombarded with the sonic attack.
This is a common argument but it is debunked in the manga and anime several times.
Here when Shira starts muffling his movements Neji refers back to that fight in the Hidden Forest. He clearly labels the attacks as Supersonic and states that that's how good taijutsu users counter fast movements: by hearing the attack because of the speed of it. The sound ninja used a trick to trick Rock Lee's ears so he wouldn't be able to hear his movements and counter them.
The speed in which Lee moves with his weight off is not much different from what Touta has displayed considering he has had entire fights while faster than sound and this is even more evident as each of Touta and his opponent's blows can be seen causing sonic booms and produce shock-waves, even when hitting nothing but air.
Faster than sound is great, but Lee did it while weightless and without the use of his muscles. And that wasn't weightless Lee, who fought so fast that many of the ninja, who all have supersonic perception and reaction, found it hard to keep up with him.
And this is not even the peak of his speed...which I will get into as the debate moves along.
I hope not because I haven't even gotten into the gates yet.
Two very different feats, as Sasuke had quite a bit of forward momentum when he struck the bear as opposed to him being stationary when Lee stopped his kick. Still an impressive feat nonetheless, though nothing compared to what Touta has done.
But Sasuke was going for the KO with that kick so there was some uumph behind it.
While extremely weakened to the point that he struggled to even stand, as a result of fighting two consecutive battles, he still manages to hit so had that the ground is completely destroyed and the shock-wave alone sends three armored tanks flying into the air.
And Lee and all of the other ninjas have similar strength feats. But in a particular fight, Kongou who is a extremely quick brick who was oneshotting entire ships and punching through concrete was put down swiftly here by Lee. His punches rival if not out right surpass that of which I have seen.
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Here he takes out Kongou who has taken on direct hits from a bloodlusted KN0 Naruto.
What you see him cutting through is a magic shield that in previous pages, tanked an energy beam from a satellite, stated on panel to be able to destroy the massive port they were on. Do note that I am not implying that Touta has that type of damage output but when all the force is focused on such as small area by a blade, more stress will be undoubtedly exerted on said area.
To get an idea of the damage output from Touta's sword swing, the tower-like object next to the impacted area is called the Orbital Elevator, and the base of the tower is rather large, to the point of dwarfing skyscrapers
Yet, the impact from Touta's Gravity Blade can be seen almost at half the size of the base of the tower.
Yes but he would have to hit him first. How fast has he swung this sword because Lee's reaction time is crazy. Dodging the Mach 1 attack from point blank range put his reaction time in the milliseconds, and that's one of his worst speed showings in the entire series.
Here's me calc'ing his reaction time in another thread:
Average bullets move faster than Mach 1 yes. But the difference is the distance between the bullets and spiderman, and the sound attacks and Lee. Here in an article that mythbusters wrote they explain the distance and needed reaction time to dodge bullets which should help with any other reaction speed calculation.
BULLETS
The average bullet travels at 2,500 feet per second (around 1,700 mph). If you reacted to the sound of the gun going off and required 0.20 seconds (twice that of the fastest Olympic sprinters) to react, then you would need to be at least 500 feet away to successfully dodge a bullet. The problem is that sound travels at 768 miles per hour (1,126 feet per second)—about half the speed of the bullet. In this case, the bullet would hit you before you even heard the gun fire off.
Using a very simple proportion it can be calculated on exactly how fast Lee's combat/reaction speed is, as well as Ben's. Rock Lee dodged a point blank attack that moved at the speed of sound. So for example, lets say Rock Lee was two feet away (he was probably closer but this is speculative so I'm going to lowball it a little bit).
So first calculate how far away you would have to be to react to sound at a reaction time of 0.2
2500 fps(speed of bullet) = 500ft (distance in order to successfully dodge and react to bullet)
1126 fps(speed of sound)= "x" (distance in order to successfully dodge and react to sound)
Now to do the math...
2500(x) = 1126(500)
2500(x) = 563000
563000/2500 = (x)
x(the distance you would have to be to dodge sound at a reaction time of 0.2) = 225.2
So now all you would have to do is do another proportion to find the reaction time required for 2 feet away.
225.2 feet (distance) = 0.2 (reaction time required)
2 feet (distance) = "x" (reaction time required)
Now to do the math...
225.2(x) = 2(0.2)
225.2(x) = 0.4
0.4/225.2 = (x)
x(the reaction time required to 0.0017761989342806
So Rock Lee, in a fairly weakened state (where all of his muscles were torn), has the ability to react and move in 1 millisecond.
At the very least it he has millisecond reaction time, and you'll see later on that he eclipses that quite easily.
Sadly, none of this is actually the case, and I'm unsure as to what allowed you to come to the conclusion of Lee having better durability, considering you've shown nothing to suggest as such other than the unsatisfactory catching a kick scan.
He has taken hits from Might Guy, Kongou, Shira (who can oneshot the giant boulders which protect the sand village with ease) has been hit through cliffs, and has been hit so hard he cause massive craters in the ground. None of which had an affect on him whatsoever. But what makes Lee so scary is that despite his great blunt force durability. He is also the king of pain tolerance.
He has kept fighting even though all of his muscles were torn to pieces. He is able to fight through opening the gates, which literally evaportates ones own blood and sweat within the body. His pain tolerance is so high that even when he looses conciousness due to overexertion, his muscle memory and body allowed him to stand upright in a fighting stance. This is while Lee had every bone in his right leg and right arm shattered by Gaara.
Speed is another factor that Touta should eclipse Lee in.
You haven't proven that to be the case...
Touta blitzes a guy who could easily move faster than sound, grabbing him by the neck and throwing him through numerous buildings, then covering the massive distance between them both before the guy could even move again. Touta then proceeds to blitz him with punches and each punch can be seen causing sonic booms, and ultimately leveling an entire building.
And Lee has easily replicated that feat while weightless by outpacing Gaara's sand which moves much quicker than sound and by outpacing Sasuke easily when Sasuke could keep up with Haku.
With all these factors in Touta's favor, it's clear he holds the advantage over Lee. Not to mention his immense regenerative capabilities, such as reforming a destroyed heart, reattaching limbs, and even his head. Yes, he can be incapacitated but I highly doubt Lee has the damage output to do such a thing based on what you have shown in regards to his striking capabilities.
And how do you figure that to be correct? I haven't even begun to get into all of Lee's moves and skillset. But just a little taste of what Lee could do to Touta:
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And lets not forget. I haven't even started talking about the gates yet (and I have a good reason for doing so).
This is a common argument but it is debunked in the manga and anime several times.
Where in the manga does this take place?
Here when Shira starts muffling his movements Neji refers back to that fight in the Hidden Forest. He clearly labels the attacks as Supersonic and states that that's how good taijutsu users counter fast movements: by hearing the attack because of the speed of it. The sound ninja used a trick to trick Rock Lee's ears so he wouldn't be able to hear his movements and counter them.
Again, you're misinterpreting the showing. Neji did not label the sound ninja's attack as supersonic, in fact he never even brought it up. Tenten is the one who refers to it based on the context of what Neji was talking about. Negi specifically states, taijutsu users can counter supersonic attacks by using all five of their senses. He then goes on to say that hearing is one of them. By this, Neji means that for a taijutsu user to counter a supersonic attack, all his senses have to work in tandem.
Tenten goes on to recall the sound ninja fight as a reference point to Neji's following statement that Lee's current opponent does the opposite form of attack in comparison to the sound ninjas.
This had absolutely nothing to do with the supposed speed of the sound ninjas, as it was canonically stated that their attacks directly attack the inner ear, and disrupt the body's equilibrium.
Faster than sound is great, but Lee did it while weightless and without the use of his muscles. And that wasn't weightless Lee, who fought so fast that many of the ninja, who all have supersonic perception and reaction, found it hard to keep up with him.
Where's the proof that Lee without weights is faster than sound. Sure, he moved fast enough to cause Gaara to lose sight of him on numerous occasions but I can also say that Touta's opponent, Kuroumaru has done the exact same to him, and even when Touta couldn't perceive him and had no knowledge or experience in high speed movement via ki manipulation, he still managed to react and effortlessly dodged just fine.
So where's the evidence that Lee is faster than sound after initially removing his weights? Just because an opponent may move faster than you can perceive, does not mean they are faster than sound.
When Lee opens the five gates, I can definitely acknowledge he's faster than sound due to the fact that the ground is unable to support him and his strikes finally could create visible sonic booms. And the funny thing about 5-Gate Lee's showings, is these are things Touta has replicated while weakened.
And that wasn't weightless Lee, who fought so fast that many of the ninja, who all have supersonic perception and reaction, found it hard to keep up with him.
I'll like to touch on this statement even further. I hope you don't mind me asking who in the group of spectators had "supersonic perception and reaction." You're clearly not referring to Gai or Kakashi since they could see Lee, so who?
What did Tenten, Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Choji, Ino, Shikamaru, Kankuro, and Temari do to make you claim they have supersonic perceptions and reactions?
I hope not because I haven't even gotten into the gates yet.
I'm afraid you just did when you decided to reference Lee moving fast enough to disappear form the spectators vision lol
But Sasuke was going for the KO with that kick so there was some uumph behind it.
Yes, he put force behind the kick, otherwise he wouldn't be surprised when Lee caught it. However, how does that equate to the instance he used his forward momentum to incapacitate a giant bear?
It doesn't.
And Lee and all of the other ninjas have similar strength feats. But in a particular fight, Kongou who is a extremely quick brick who was oneshotting entire ships and punching through concrete was put down swiftly here by Lee. His punches rival if not out right surpass that of which I have seen.
I disagree.
Nothing you showed me in that videos is close to Touta leveling a ten story building with his blows, or comparable to Touta swinging his sword hard enough to cause damage that dwarfs skyscrapers.
Here he takes out Kongou who has taken on direct hits from a bloodlusted KN0 Naruto.
You mean the same hits that had him audibly wailing while crawling away on his elbows and knees?
Yes but he would have to hit him first. How fast has he swung this sword because Lee's reaction time is crazy. Dodging the Mach 1 attack from point blank range put his reaction time in the milliseconds, and that's one of his worst speed showings in the entire series.
He swings the blade fast enough that air pressure alone can cleave a massive boulder to pieces
He has shown to be so adept and swift with the Gravity Blade that he could tag the likes of Fate Averrnucus, who is regarded as the greatest Mage in the solar system, and could fight at the speed of lightning even as a child when fighting Touta's grandfather, Negi Springfield. (Do note that I'm not by any means implying that Touta moves faster than Fate but rather, he has tagged an opponent of such speed with a combination of skillful precision strikes and speed).
Touta shifts the blade from 0 weight for swift control to 10,000 times it's weight (10 tons) for heavy strikes. He then manipulates it again, going from 10,000 times to 1000 times (1 ton), then 500,000 times it's weight (500 tons).
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I hope by you stating Lee has supposedly dodged a Mach 1 attack from point-blank range, you're not referring to that same feat with the sound ninja, because that's not what happened, as I've shown.
At the very least it he has millisecond reaction time, and you'll see later on that he eclipses that quite easily
Irrelevant. Considering the supposed "dodging mach 1 attack from point blank range" is clearly inaccurate.
I'll be looking forward to these secret feats of speed you have
He has taken hits from Might Guy, Kongou, Shira (who can oneshot the giant boulders which protect the sand village with ease) has been hit through cliffs, and has been hit so hard he cause massive craters in the ground. None of which had an affect on him whatsoever. But what makes Lee so scary is that despite his great blunt force durability. He is also the king of pain tolerance.
He has kept fighting even though all of his muscles were torn to pieces. He is able to fight through opening the gates, which literally evaportates ones own blood and sweat within the body. His pain tolerance is so high that even when he looses conciousness due to overexertion, his muscle memory and body allowed him to stand upright in a fighting stance. This is while Lee had every bone in his right leg and right arm shattered by Gaara
And despite all of this, Touta still hits harder. Also if you don't mind, can you cite where Guy hits Lee.
Lee's pain tolerance is nice but it means little, especially when the opponent he'll be facing is wielding a 500 Ton sword that can split him in two.
You haven't proven that to be the case...
Lol and you have?
Allow me to present my case then.
Touta has been shown to move so quickly in his fight with Fate Averrnucus, that time is depicted to have stopped momentarily. Fate does parry Touta's strike but given Fate's speed, this is an expected result. Touta's momentum carries him flying through reinforced concrete and yet he reemerges unharmed.
And what makes this feat even more impressive is the fact that Touta moved this quickly while his Gravity Blade was still set at 500 tons.
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Here he blocks one thousand high speed obsidian swords, shot at him simultaneously from Fate
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After Kuroumaru who can easily move fast enough to disappear from sight got a significant head start, Touta travels the distance of two cities in mere seconds, catching up to Kuroumaru after physically overpowering Ikku with but a single jab, which tears his anchors off the ground and sends him flying. Even Kuroumaru has to comment on the level of speed Touta displayed in catching up despite the head start
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And Lee has easily replicated that feat while weightless by outpacing Gaara's sand which moves much quicker than sound and by outpacing Sasuke easily when Sasuke could keep up with Haku.
You keep saying this and yet you've yet to provide an ounce of proof that Gaara's sand moves faster than the speed of sound. I hope you don't plan on bringing up the explosion blocking feat, since I've already addressed that with proper context.
And how do you figure that to be correct? I haven't even begun to get into all of Lee's moves and skillset. But just a little taste of what Lee could do to Touta
You'd actually have to be faster than your opponent to use the Primary Lotus and even if I were to give Lee the benefit of the doubt and say he initiated the attack, he would not be able to complete it because the cloth restrains used to hold the victim can easily be overcome by Touta's physical strength....and he outclasses Lee in that department by miles.
If I was to even further give Lee the benefit of doubt and assume he actually completed the Lotus, Touta's regenerative capabilities will kick in and he'll be healed literally within seconds, while Lee feels the impact of his torn muscles for enacting the Lotus.
And lets not forget. I haven't even started talking about the gates yet (and I have a good reason for doing so).
Again, you're misinterpreting the showing. Neji did not label the sound ninja's attack as supersonic, in fact he never even brought it up. Tenten is the one who refers to it based on the context of what Neji was talking about. Negi specifically states, taijutsu users can counter supersonic attacks by using all five of their senses. He then goes on to say that hearing is one of them. By this, Neji means that for a taijutsu user to counter a supersonic attack, all his senses have to work in tandem.
He specifically stated that the sound users did this in order for their attacks to be harder to gauge. And if you still want to dispute that feat (even though it was clearly explained), Sasuke moved faster than the actual sound attack in that same fight, and Sasuke had to increase his speed to Lee's level in order to use the Chidori. So Lee being Mach 1 at the very least really isn't arguable.
This had absolutely nothing to do with the supposed speed of the sound ninjas, as it was canonically stated that their attacks directly attack the inner ear, and disrupt the body's equilibrium.
Because the body focuses on sound so much. Once your sound is distorted then it gets harder to dodge attacks, which is exactly what Shira's technique did.
Where's the proof that Lee without weights is faster than sound. Sure, he moved fast enough to cause Gaara to lose sight of him on numerous occasions but I can also say that Touta's opponent, Kuroumaru has done the exact same to him, and even when Touta couldn't perceive him and had no knowledge or experience in high speed movement via ki manipulation, he still managed to react and effortlessly dodged just fine.
So where's the evidence that Lee is faster than sound after initially removing his weights? Just because an opponent may move faster than you can perceive, does not mean they are faster than sound.
This seems to be a reoccurring thing so I'll break it down. Even if you wan't to discount the validity of those scans there are others examples. Here is one.
Those same attacks that move at the speed of sound (because they are sound attacks) were fired at Sasuke. He was quick enough to not only dodge the attacks, but to pick up an unconscious Naruto and a weak Sakura and carry them behind Zaku before he could react. Lets have a look see, shall we...
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Further proof that they were actually sound attacks (therefore moving at Mach 1) is the fact that Choji and Shikamaru were gripping their ears, indicating that they were the same attacks that were used earlier. We know that Sasuke completely dodges this because his ears are not affected, had he been hit with the attack, his equilibrium would have been off as you stated earlier. So here we have Sasuke being much much faster than Mach 1.
Sasuke still had to increase his speed in order to use the Chidori so he copied Rock Lee's movements in order to get the speed boost necessary to tag Gaara and use the Chidori.
So Sasuke, already being much faster than the speed of sound, still had to amp his speed to Lee's level to even be able tag Gaara.
I hope this lays to rest this ridiculous challenge to Rock Lee's speed.
When Lee opens the five gates, I can definitely acknowledge he's faster than sound due to the fact that the ground is unable to support him and his strikes finally could create visible sonic booms. And the funny thing about 5-Gate Lee's showings, is these are things Touta has replicated while weakened.
Hmm, so breaking the ground when you run is a showing of Mach 1 speed? That's funny because a land vehicle, The SCC I believe, has done the same thing and the ground supported it just fine. Also he was moving so fast that when he slowed down to change directions he could bounce off of the sound barrier.
And his strikes weren't just Mach 1, they were just so powerful that the air compression was cracking the whole room. Kishi hardly ever draws in someone faster than sound, Raikage is fast/faster as/than lighting and he has never broken the sound barrier not once so you gauging his speed on whether or not he breaks the barrier is fruitless. Wally West is barely drawn breaking the sound barrier even though he is moving much faster.
He slows down to bounce off of the sound barrier.
He slows down......
And obviously him breaking the ground when he runs is a showing of much greater speed than Mach 1.
What did Tenten, Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Choji, Ino, Shikamaru, Kankuro, and Temari do to make you claim they have supersonic perceptions and reactions?
Naruto- See fight with Haku and fight with Gaara that happened in that same week I believe, he was faster than Gaara's sand as well, and he completely lost track of Lee several times within the fight.
Sasuke- See fight with Haku but Sasuke wasn't even there.
Temari- is fast enough to blow away the flute notes from one of the sound ninja four, even though it is after the exams it wasn't that long afterwards
And in regards to Kakashi once Lee opened the fifth gate he was still as startled as everyone else by Lee's speed (in the manga not anime).
Irrelevant. Considering the supposed "dodging mach 1 attack from point blank range" is clearly inaccurate.
I'll be looking forward to these secret feats of speed you have
He clearly did it.
Touta has been shown to move so quickly in his fight with Fate Averrnucus, that time is depicted to have stopped momentarily. Fate does parry Touta's strike but given Fate's speed, this is an expected result. Touta's momentum carries him flying through reinforced concrete and yet he reemerges unharmed.
Oh he fought so quickly that time is depicted to have stopped momentarily? So has Haku in the very first arc.
Haku was moving so quickly that freefalling water couldn't move at all. Kishimoto even highlights this fact (not the red but the fact that he focuses on it in the panels). Sasuke reacted to and Naruto outsped Haku, Lee completely blitzed Sasuke with weights on so consider me not impressed.
And what makes this feat even more impressive is the fact that Touta moved this quickly while his Gravity Blade was still set at 500 tons.
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Here he blocks one thousand high speed obsidian swords, shot at him simultaneously from Fate
He didn't block all 1000 as you could clearly see he had taken damage. And even in the scan it is shown that it wasn't simultaneous as you could see the differences in location of the swords so they all arrived at different times.
After Kuroumaru who can easily move fast enough to disappear from sight got a significant head start, Touta travels the distance of two cities in mere seconds, catching up to Kuroumaru after physically overpowering Ikku with but a single jab, which tears his anchors off the ground and sends him flying. Even Kuroumaru has to comment on the level of speed Touta displayed in catching up despite the head start
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This is what we would call an unquantifiable feat. You don't know the time that has passed or a distance, so while it is impressive somewhat, it doesn't equate to anything in this battle.
Yes, he put force behind the kick, otherwise he wouldn't be surprised when Lee caught it. However, how does that equate to the instance he used his forward momentum to incapacitate a giant bear?
It doesn't.
He did a flip and kicked it. You act like he built up his speed and whatnot.
You keep saying this and yet you've yet to provide an ounce of proof that Gaara's sand moves faster than the speed of sound. I hope you don't plan on bringing up the explosion blocking feat, since I've already addressed that with proper context.
I saw it and tried to ignore it but you brought it up again for some reason. The argument is null and void because at this point, Gaara had no control over his automatic sand shield. This is evident when he tried to cut himself with a knife. It is automatic and has its own consciousness which we find out later is his mothers will. So the sand moved regardless to whether Gaara was warned or not.
And even if you can say he had prior knowledge, it doesn't matter at all. The sand didn't even move until the explosion happened, its not like it started moving to protect him before the blast went off. And there was still the scene where he clearly said "Let's see whats faster, your sand or my sound" (or something along those lines). The Sand was CLEARLY portrayed as faster than sound.
You'd actually have to be faster than your opponent to use the Primary Lotus and even if I were to give Lee the benefit of the doubt and say he initiated the attack, he would not be able to complete it because the cloth restrains used to hold the victim can easily be overcome by Touta's physical strength....and he outclasses Lee in that department by miles.
Yes he does outclass him in physical strength and hopefully we're out of the speed argument.
If I was to even further give Lee the benefit of doubt and assume he actually completed the Lotus, Touta's regenerative capabilities will kick in and he'll be healed literally within seconds, while Lee feels the impact of his torn muscles for enacting the Lotus.
I don't care if he is alive, prove that he wont get KO'ed.
He has shown to be so adept and swift with the Gravity Blade that he could tag the likes of Fate Averrnucus, who is regarded as the greatest Mage in the solar system, and could fight at the speed of lightning even as a child when fighting Touta's grandfather, Negi Springfield. (Do note that I'm not by any means implying that Touta moves faster than Fate but rather, he has tagged an opponent of such speed with a combination of skillful precision strikes and speed).
If you were tagging lightning speeders then why did you wan't to fight Lee? But whatever the show will go on!
And despite all of this, Touta still hits harder. Also if you don't mind, can you cite where Guy hits Lee.
You gave me anime feats ;)
Lee's pain tolerance is nice but it means little, especially when the opponent he'll be facing is wielding a 500 Ton sword that can split him in two.
He has to tag him first and it seems the heavier the blade gets, the slower the swings even if it is a small amount of speed loss. You will need all of the speed you can get.
He specifically stated that the sound users did this in order for their attacks to be harder to gauge.
I hope you really don't feel like I'm trying to dispute everything you display as a way to suggest you're being deceptive. I however am countering some of the things you are misinterpreting. I'm sure we can agree that the reason for you pointing out what Neji stated while Lee was fighting Shira was to reinforce your claim that Lee moved at the speed of sound while fighting the sound ninja. I rebut this by the simple fact that the sound ninja himself reveals that the form of attack he was referring to that moves at the speed of sound is in fact produced from the device on his forearm, thereby also negating the notion that he himself physically attacks at the speed of sound.
And if you still want to dispute that feat (even though it was clearly explained), Sasuke moved faster than the actual sound attack in that same fight, and Sasuke had to increase his speed to Lee's level in order to use the Chidori. So Lee being Mach 1 at the very least really isn't arguable.
Sasuke fights the sound ninjas after he was significantly amped from curse mark granted by Orichimaru, which allowed him to perform such a feat. I will address the portion of Sasuke using Chidori as I move along.
Because the body focuses on sound so much. Once your sound is distorted then it gets harder to dodge attacks, which is exactly what Shira's technique did.
The distortion or muffling of sound is Shira's technique. The sound ninja does the opposite, using his chakra to direct the sound directly into his opponents inner ear, disrupting the victim's balance.
I'd rather not dwell on this topic for too long, so I'll just let the readers decide...
Here's the instant you were referring to when Neji comments on Lee's fight with Shira.
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As you can see Tenten is the one who brings up the sound ninja fighting Lee as reference to follow up to Neji citing how both instances with Shira and the sound ninja differ from each other.
The sound ninja himself specifically explains how the attack works. It was not him that was moving at supersonic speed but the sound attack (which Tenten referred to) that was.
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This seems to be a reoccurring thing so I'll break it down. Even if you wan't to discount the validity of those scans there are others examples. Here is one.
Those same attacks that move at the speed of sound (because they are sound attacks) were fired at Sasuke. He was quick enough to not only dodge the attacks, but to pick up an unconscious Naruto and a weak Sakura and carry them behind Zaku before he could react. Lets have a look see, shall we...
Further proof that they were actually sound attacks (therefore moving at Mach 1) is the fact that Choji and Shikamaru were gripping their ears, indicating that they were the same attacks that were used earlier. We know that Sasuke completely dodges this because his ears are not affected, had he been hit with the attack, his equilibrium would have been off as you stated earlier. So here we have Sasuke being much much faster than Mach 1.
But you conveniently forget to mention that when Sasuke performed this feat he was massively amped by the curse mark from Orochimaru.
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It was such an amp that Sasuke comments on how he was absolutely engorged with new found power and even the sound ninja was flabbergasted at how much power was flowing through Sasuke due to the curse mark.
Sasuke still had to increase his speed in order to use the Chidori so he copied Rock Lee's movements in order to get the speed boost necessary to tag Gaara and use the Chidori.
So Sasuke, already being much faster than the speed of sound, still had to amp his speed to Lee's level to even be able tag Gaara.
I hope this lays to rest this ridiculous challenge to Rock Lee's speed.
Where this argument crumbles is that you're trying to imply that Sasuke was faster than the sound ninja's attack, thereby making him supersonic, and then you attempt to use that to then claim that Sasuke still had to boost his speed to match that of Lee's.
Unfortunately, this is not how things played out. As I've pointed out above, Sasuke was massively amped when he dodged the sound attack. Sasuke was however not amped when he evaded Gaara's sand after copying Lee's taijutsu. Let's also not forget that Guy outright states that Sasuke was only as fast as Lee without weights even after he copied Lee's taijutsu.
Further proving both of my points that at that point in time, Sasuke is not faster than sound without the amp from Orochimaru, and Gaara's sand is not faster than sound, considering Sasuke could easily tag him even when he had not revved up his speed to equate to Lee's weightless state but still maintaining Lee's base speed
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Hmm, so breaking the ground when you run is a showing of Mach 1 speed? That's funny because a land vehicle, The SCC I believe, has done the same thing and the ground supported it just fine. Also he was moving so fast that when he slowed down to change directions he could bounce off of the sound barrier.
Sorry if I sounded like I was putting fiction against reality here. I said that as a comparison to both Touta and Lee. It is however different from the comparison you just mentioned. Slowly accelerating and building up to the speed of sound is much different that being stationary and instantly hitting the speed of sound. The ground will not be able to support you.
Also, Lee boucing off the air is something both Touta's opponent Kaito (the wolf guy Touta was fighting in the scans above) has done while fighting Touta, and Touta's other opponent Kuroumaru has done. Further proving my point that Touta is faster than 5-Gates Lee considering he blitzed both of them before
Here Touta's opponent, Kaito replicates the same thing Lee did. The process of doing this is called "Void Instant Movement" or "Midair Shundo"
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Here Kuroumaru does the same while even carrying someone
And his strikes weren't just Mach 1, they were just so powerful that the air compression was cracking the whole room. Kishi hardly ever draws in someone faster than sound, Raikage is fast/faster as/than lighting and he has never broken the sound barrier not once so you gauging his speed on whether or not he breaks the barrier is fruitless. Wally West is barely drawn breaking the sound barrier even though he is moving much faster.
He slows down to bounce off of the sound barrier.
He slows down......
Fair enough, I won't fault the artist for depicting speed differently. Also, do note that Wally doesn't break the sound barrier because the Speed Force negates forces such as air friction.
And obviously him breaking the ground when he runs is a showing of much greater speed than Mach 1.
You mean exactly what I've shown Touta do numerous times :)
Naruto- See fight with Haku and fight with Gaara that happened in that same week I believe, he was faster than Gaara's sand as well, and he completely lost track of Lee several times within the fight.
Naruto was astronomically amped up due to being possessed by the Nine Tails when that happened. As Naruto lost sight of Lee, he was at a normal state and not overflowing with Nine Tails charckra.
Can you leave a scan or cite the chapter where Naruto evades Gaara's sand? Not that I don't take your word for it but context is important
Sasuke- See fight with Haku but Sasuke wasn't even there.
He used the sharingan to see Hakku.
Also my mistake, I somehow forgot Sasuke was not watching Lee fight. :)
Temari- is fast enough to blow away the flute notes from one of the sound ninja four, even though it is after the exams it wasn't that long afterwards
The fact it took place after the Chunin exam derails your argument. And no, the distance between the Chunin exam and the feat you cited was long. In fact it was 128 chapter difference.
Also you forgot to mention feats for the other spectators that you claimed had supersonic perceptions as well (Sakura, Choji, Ino, Shikamaru, Kankuro).
And in regards to Kakashi once Lee opened the fifth gate he was still as startled as everyone else by Lee's speed (in the manga not anime).
Well of course, kids of that age and level of classification usually don't move that fast :)
He clearly did it
I'm not touching this point again. I've presented my case above and I'll let the readers decide (If we even have any readers lol. This thread is a ghost town)
Oh he fought so quickly that time is depicted to have stopped momentarily? So has Haku in the very first arc
And this is irrelevant considering Haku is not Lee. Heck, Naruto is moving is slow motion compared to Haku
Haku was moving so quickly that freefalling water couldn't move at all. Kishimoto even highlights this fact (not the red but the fact that he focuses on it in the panels). Sasuke reacted to and Naruto outsped Haku, Lee completely blitzed Sasuke with weights on so consider me not impressed.
Note to the readers: To avoid potential misunderstanding of the feat, Haku was moving via a technique that transfers his body through the reflection of numerous mirrors. He used this technique to blitz Sasuke and Naruto. Haku was not actually moving that fast with his own physical ability/combat speed
Back on topic.
Nice that Sharingan Sasuke reacted to Haku but I can say Touta did the same to a guy (Fate) that even while only 10 years old could move as fast as lightning.
Naruto on the other hand overwhelmed Hakku in the speed department ....BUT.... he was amped via the Nine Tails when it happened
So no, citing Haku does not translate to Lee blitzing a non-sharingan Sasuke.
Also I noticed that while doing your comparison by citing Haku, you forgot to address the fact that I mentioned that Touta moved that quickly against Fate that time appeared frozen, while STILL carrying his sword set to 500 tons. I'll be looking forward to your response to this particular feat
He didn't block all 1000 as you could clearly see he had taken damage. And even in the scan it is shown that it wasn't simultaneous as you could see the differences in location of the swords so they all arrived at different times
Indeed he did not perfectly block them all without a scratch. They are controlled by Fate magically and to simply ward them off and then proceed to destroy them all while only sustaining small cuts is a massive feat.
This is what we would call an unquantifiable feat. You don't know the time that has passed or a distance, so while it is impressive somewhat, it doesn't equate to anything in this battle.
True the feat is not totally quantifiable but to cross such a distance is something that should not be easily brushed aside like you're doing right now. The panels show it taking place in seconds but even if we're to assume it to be minutes --which I highly doubt-- it would still be a great feat of speed.
He did a flip and kicked it. You act like he built up his speed and whatnot.
He was not in the vicinity when the bear attacked Karin, only showing up when the bear was literally a couple of feet away from her and kicking it after doing three flips. This alone should suggest he had momentum when kicking the bear.
I saw it and tried to ignore it but you brought it up again for some reason. The argument is null and void because at this point, Gaara had no control over his automatic sand shield. This is evident when he tried to cut himself with a knife. It is automatic and has its own consciousness which we find out later is his mothers will. So the sand moved regardless to whether Gaara was warned or not.
And even if you can say he had prior knowledge, it doesn't matter at all. The sand didn't even move until the explosion happened, its not like it started moving to protect him before the blast went off.
Fair enough, though I wouldn't tout the feat as you do. It is impressive nonetheless, as I stated before.
And there was still the scene where he clearly said "Let's see whats faster, your sand or my sound" (or something along those lines). The Sand was CLEARLY portrayed as faster than sound.
So what happened after the sound ninja said that?
Because from what I see they never even showed a fight and the sound ninja never retaliated
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Yes he does outclass him in physical strength and hopefully we're out of the speed argument.
Display Lee's supposed superior strength then
I don't care if he is alive, prove that he wont get KO'ed.
Really?
I assumed it would be a given considering you've shown nothing from Lee's striking arsenal that can put down Touta.
As I've previously displayed, he's been hit with pressurized air that was so strong that it tore off and shredded half of a massive church building. The same attack sent him thousands of feet into a forest comprised of trees, metal scraps, and concrete and he reemerged completely without a scratch.
He's been hit so hard that speed in which his body was sent flying causes him to ram into 11 Intermodal Containers, sending them at least 60 feet into the air. These same container weigh in around 3000 - 13,000 lbs each while empty and can weight up to 110,231 lbs when with cargo.
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He's been puched by Fate so hard that his body is rag-dolled fast enough to cause sonic booms
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Plus the regenerative factor to boot.
If you were tagging lightning speeders then why did you wan't to fight Lee? But whatever the show will go on!
As you can see in the scans it's due to his skill and his manipulation of the Gravity Blade. It's the same concept with street levelers tagging people much faster than them
You gave me anime feats ;)
True lol but with your statement I'm assuming what you mean when you say Guy has hit him, you mean in a joking manner and not a serious fight. That is the only point I believe Guy usually hits Lee.
He has to tag him first and it seems the heavier the blade gets, the slower the swings even if it is a small amount of speed loss. You will need all of the speed you can get.
Indeed, though not to a huge degree like you say bearing in mind the previous feat I presented where Touta moved at speeds where time appears frozen, while carrying a 500 ton blade.
He specifically stated that the sound users did this in order for their attacks to be harder to gauge.
I hope you really don't feel like I'm trying to dispute everything you display as a way to suggest you're being deceptive. I however am countering some of the things you are misinterpreting. I'm sure we can agree that the reason for you pointing out what Neji stated while Lee was fighting Shira was to reinforce your claim that Lee moved at the speed of sound while fighting the sound ninja. I rebut this by the simple fact that the sound ninja himself reveals that the form of attack he was referring to that moves at the speed of sound is in fact produced from the device on his forearm, thereby also negating the notion that he himself physically attacks at the speed of sound.
And if you still want to dispute that feat (even though it was clearly explained), Sasuke moved faster than the actual sound attack in that same fight, and Sasuke had to increase his speed to Lee's level in order to use the Chidori. So Lee being Mach 1 at the very least really isn't arguable.
Sasuke fights the sound ninjas after he was significantly amped from curse mark granted by Orichimaru, which allowed him to perform such a feat. I will address the portion of Sasuke using Chidori as I move along.
Because the body focuses on sound so much. Once your sound is distorted then it gets harder to dodge attacks, which is exactly what Shira's technique did.
The distortion or muffling of sound is Shira's technique. The sound ninja does the opposite, using his chakra to direct the sound directly into his opponents inner ear, disrupting the victim's balance.
I'd rather not dwell on this topic for too long, so I'll just let the readers decide...
Here's the instant you were referring to when Neji comments on Lee's fight with Shira.
I guess we just have just have differences in interpretation. We can let the users decide on which interpretation they prefer instead of spending so much time debating on differences of our own interpretation.
But you conveniently forget to mention that when Sasuke performed this feat he was massively amped by the curse mark from Orochimaru.
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It was such an amp that Sasuke comments on how he was absolutely engorged with new found power and even the sound ninja was flabbergasted at how much power was flowing through Sasuke due to the curse mark.
Since when has power been equal to speed? He received a massive power increase and his ruthlessness was massively increased but other than that, nowhere in the manga is a speed boost mentioned at all. In fact Sakan/Ukon was able to keep up with Sasuke CS1, and he was nowhere near as fast as Kimmimaro, the same guy who I posted Lee easily outmaneuvering in my opener.
Sakon/Ukon was even able to keep up with post Chidori training Sasuke:
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And he wasn't even in the ballpark of speed for Kimmimaro.
Where this argument crumbles is that you're trying to imply that Sasuke was faster than the sound ninja's attack, thereby making him supersonic, and then you attempt to use that to then claim that Sasuke still had to boost his speed to match that of Lee's.
You have used two words in this statement that aren't accurate: imply and attempt. I didn't imply that Sasuke was faster than the sound Ninja's attack, I referenced it and then provided the scans of the event. There were no implications required. And I did not attempt to claim that Sasuke had to boost his speed, its a canonical fact that even you acknowledge.
Unfortunately, this is not how things played out. As I've pointed out above, Sasuke was massively amped when he dodged the sound attack. Sasuke was however not amped when he evaded Gaara's sand after copying Lee's taijutsu.
Sasuke had consistently train in order just to MATCH Lee' weighless speed. He used the Sharingan to copy Lee's movements and then use them to boost his own physical attributes. Therefore he was amped, even though the amp was permanent.
Dont forget that they are able to outpace the same sand that was faster than Sound attacks IIRC and quick enough to defend against point blank explosions. That is far above Mach 1 and both Lee and Sasuke are able to supersede it.
Let's also not forget that Guy outright states that Sasuke was only as fast as Lee without weights even after he copied Lee's taijutsu.
Exactly. Sasuke had to train and amp himself just to match Lee's base speed.
Further proving both of my points that at that point in time, Sasuke is not faster than sound without the amp from Orochimaru, and Gaara's sand is not faster than sound, considering Sasuke could easily tag him even when he had not revved up his speed to equate to Lee's weightless state but still maintaining Lee's base speed
You basically just debunked youself with your own scan lol. You say that Gaara's sand is not faster than sound because Sasuke was outpacing the sand using only Base Lee's movements. First of all, I have already provided scans of Base Lee, with weights, outpacing sound speed movements. Second of all, in the scan Gai CLEARLY states that Sasuke is as fast as Lee without weights which is further proven by Gaara saying that Sasuke moves just like Weightless Lee did a few pages later. So I have no clue where you got the idea that Sasuke's post-Chidori training speed is less than that of Weightless Lee's when the scan that YOU provided clearly states otherwise.
Sorry if I sounded like I was putting fiction against reality here. I said that as a comparison to both Touta and Lee. It is however different from the comparison you just mentioned. Slowly accelerating and building up to the speed of sound is much different that being stationary and instantly hitting the speed of sound. The ground will not be able to support you.
Also, Lee boucing off the air is something both Touta's opponent Kaito (the wolf guy Touta was fighting in the scans above) has done while fighting Touta, and Touta's other opponent Kuroumaru has done. Further proving my point that Touta is faster than 5-Gates Lee considering he blitzed both of them before
Here Touta's opponent, Kaito replicates the same thing Lee did. The process of doing this is called "Void Instant Movement" or "Midair Shundo"
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Here Kuroumaru does the same while even carrying someone
Performing a feat with a technique that you have learned is not the same as performing a feat through sheer physical stats.
For example, Human torch can light things on fire when he flies past them, not because of speed but because of the fact that his power set literally allows his to ignite his whole body in a flame. Would you say that is just as impressive as Might Gai, who can ignite the air with just pure speed? I would hope not. You see Human Torch's powerset allows him to perform the same feat as Guy, except you cannot use the argument that he was moving fast enough to ignite objects on fire with friction because his powers allow him to do it much easier than Gai, who did it with pure speed.
Naruto was astronomically amped up due to being possessed by the Nine Tails when that happened. As Naruto lost sight of Lee, he was at a normal state and not overflowing with Nine Tails charckra.
Can you leave a scan or cite the chapter where Naruto evades Gaara's sand? Not that I don't take your word for it but context is important
But Naruto while amped with 9 tails chakra was only able to match Neji's speed. Lee's speed is way better than Neji's (at least when he is going all out). And Naruto evaded Gaara's sand during their fight in the forest, I think it was around Naruto's Ninja Handbook or somewhere around there.
Note to the readers: To avoid potential misunderstanding of the feat, Haku was moving via a technique that transfers his body through the reflection of numerous mirrors. He used this technique to blitz Sasuke and Naruto. Haku was not actually moving that fast with his own physical ability/combat speed
Not entirely accurate...
Haku moved on her own speed in between Mirrors that had nothing to do with reflection. Unless you want to argue that she is reflection speed (which is the speed of light and I don't think you want to do that).
Naruto on the other hand overwhelmed Hakku in the speed department ....BUT.... he was amped via the Nine Tails when it happened
So no, citing Haku does not translate to Lee blitzing a non-sharingan Sasuke.
I don't see your point. This same Sasuke that was perceiving and reacting to Haku got blitzed by Lee with weights on like within the same week.
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He even explains it to him as he blitzes this same Sasuke who was perceiving and reacting to Haku
Also I noticed that while doing your comparison by citing Haku, you forgot to address the fact that I mentioned that Touta moved that quickly against Fate that time appeared frozen, while STILL carrying his sword set to 500 tons. I'll be looking forward to your response to this particular feat
No response needed since I already showed Lee fodderizing someone who can operate in that speed.
Display Lee's supposed superior strength then
Never said that Lee had superior strength. I was actually acknowledging that Touta had superior lifting strength.
Really?
I assumed it would be a given considering you've shown nothing from Lee's striking arsenal that can put down Touta.
As I've previously displayed, he's been hit with pressurized air that was so strong that it tore off and shredded half of a massive church building. The same attack sent him thousands of feet into a forest comprised of trees, metal scraps, and concrete and he reemerged completely without a scratch.
He's been hit so hard that speed in which his body was sent flying causes him to ram into 11 Intermodal Containers, sending them at least 60 feet into the air. These same container weigh in around 3000 - 13,000 lbs each while empty and can weight up to 110,231 lbs when with cargo.
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He's been puched by Fate so hard that his body is rag-dolled fast enough to cause sonic booms
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Plus the regenerative factor to boot.
You seem to be pulling a lot of random numbers from out of thin air. But alas my friend, two can play at this game. Lets talk about gates. When Kakashi is explaining gates he states that they increase users power tens of tens of times. Tens is plural meaning more than one, at least 2. Two tens is 20. 20 times 20 is equal to at least a 400x increase from base stats if you use all gates. But Lee can only use five gates. I have consistantly proven that Lee is at the very least Mach 1 with weights on and easily surpasses it without weights. So lets just say that base, weightless Lee is around Mach 2. IIRC releasing the first gates gives the user a 5x physical stat boost. All of a sudden Lee moves from Supersonic to Hypersonic, and thats just the first of five gates.
So now take all of the feats I have and magnify them by five, for the first gate.
Now there are four more kaokin gates that Lee can access further increasing his speed, striking, etc... exponentially.
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True lol but with your statement I'm assuming what you mean when you say Guy has hit him, you mean in a joking manner and not a serious fight. That is the only point I believe Guy usually hits Lee.
No he actually fights on par with Gai for a prolonged period of time, able to tank his blows and even land a few decisive ones himself. They had been tricked into fighting each other.
I guess we just have just have differences in interpretation. We can let the users decide on which interpretation they prefer instead of spending so much time debating on differences of our own interpretation.
Agreed.
It was such an amp that Sasuke comments on how he was absolutely engorged with new found power and even the sound ninja was flabbergasted at how much power was flowing through Sasuke due to the curse mark.
Since when has power been equal to speed? He received a massive power increase and his ruthlessness was massively increased but other than that, nowhere in the manga is a speed boost mentioned at all. In fact Sakan/Ukon was able to keep up with Sasuke CS1, and he was nowhere near as fast as Kimmimaro, the same guy who I posted Lee easily outmaneuvering in my opener.
Sakon/Ukon was even able to keep up with post Chidori training Sasuke:
I disagree. It's clear the Cursed Seal granted to Sasuke significantly amplified him in every way. It's made even more evident when Sasuke was shocked at the fact that Rock Lee, who was physically superior to him at the time was easily defeated by the same sound ninjas. Suggesting that while amplified by the Cursed Seal, he had an increase in physical capabilities to the point of significantly surpassing what Lee was capable of, to such a degree that he was actually startled to find out that the sound ninjas were actually a threat to their being, since he himself overwhelmed them so effortlessly.
Also, not sure what you're getting at by citing Sakan and Ukon being faster than Sasuke. Of course he'd be able to keep up, considering it was stated by Kabuto and Orochimaru that he and his group were more powerful than Sasuke.
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What's more, him defeating Sasuke when Sasuke implemented the cursed seal, was due to two reasons; 1) Sasuke was still not proficient in the use of the cursed seal, as stated by Sakan/Ukon himself, and 2) He had not overcome the limit of stage one of the cursed seal like Sakan/Ukon had.
And he wasn't even in the ballpark of speed for Kimmimaro.
Lee putting up a fight against Kimminaro, while impressive was still largely due to Lee being extremely unpredictable after becoming drunk, which allow Lee to expertly use to Druken Fist to its full capabilities, which also prevented Kimmimaro from reading his movements. Plus Kimmimaro was very much holding back, only taking on Lee in hand to hand combat. When he got serious and began to actively use more of his abilities, Lee was immediately overwhelmed and Garra had to step in.
Where this argument crumbles is that you're trying to imply that Sasuke was faster than the sound ninja's attack, thereby making him supersonic, and then you attempt to use that to then claim that Sasuke still had to boost his speed to match that of Lee's.
You have used two words in this statement that aren't accurate: imply and attempt. I didn't imply that Sasuke was faster than the sound Ninja's attack, I referenced it and then provided the scans of the event. There were no implications required. And I did not attempt to claim that Sasuke had to boost his speed, its a canonical fact that even you acknowledge.
Playing the game of semantics is rather irrelevant here. You know that when I stated you implied as such, I meant you suggested as such.
My use of the word "attempt" is completely accurate, because you use your statement of Sasuke evading the sound ninja's attacks as to follow-up to conclude that Lee was still faster than Sasuke and Sasuke supposedly had to increase his speed even further to match that of Lee's. Though why I stated this is faulty logic is simply due to the fact you completely disregarded the amplification granted by the curse seal, which was what allowed him to perform such a feat in the first place. You claiming that the curse seal does nothing to his physical statistics but rather only his morals is a blatantly erroneous way of looking at this.
Unfortunately, this is not how things played out. As I've pointed out above, Sasuke was massively amped when he dodged the sound attack. Sasuke was however not amped when he evaded Gaara's sand after copying Lee's taijutsu.
Sasuke had consistently train in order just to MATCH Lee' weighless speed. He used the Sharingan to copy Lee's movements and then use them to boost his own physical attributes. Therefore he was amped, even though the amp was permanent.
Nice, however this does not strengthen you argument at all. The aspect of one training to improve themselves and attaining results does not translate into what we call an amplification. However, the processes of attaining power that is far above your realm of capabilities without the process of fulfilling any prior requirements is what we would refer to as an amplification.
Dont forget that they are able to outpace the same sand that was faster than Sound attacks IIRC and quick enough to defend against point blank explosions. That is far above Mach 1 and both Lee and Sasuke are able to supersede it.
I've addressed this matter in my past response, so I see no reason to restate what I said again.
Let's also not forget that Guy outright states that Sasuke was only as fast as Lee without weights even after he copied Lee's taijutsu.
Exactly. Sasuke had to train and amp himself just to match Lee's base speed.
Well of course, Lee is after all faster than Sasuke. We all know this and I never denied this.
Further proving both of my points that at that point in time, Sasuke is not faster than sound without the amp from Orochimaru, and Gaara's sand is not faster than sound, considering Sasuke could easily tag him even when he had not revved up his speed to equate to Lee's weightless state but still maintaining Lee's base speed
You basically just debunked youself with your own scan lol. You say that Gaara's sand is not faster than sound because Sasuke was outpacing the sand using only Base Lee's movements. First of all, I have already provided scans of Base Lee, with weights, outpacing sound speed movements. Second of all, in the scan Gai CLEARLY states that Sasuke is as fast as Lee without weights which is further proven by Gaara saying that Sasuke moves just like Weightless Lee did a few pages later. So I have no clue where you got the idea that Sasuke's post-Chidori training speed is less than that of Weightless Lee's when the scan that YOU provided clearly states otherwise.
Please show me where I said that Sasuke was slower than Lee after his training. You clearly don't understand the post you quoted. The reason for your misinterpretation is simply due to you failing to acknowledge that Sasuke performed the sound evasion while under the physical amplification granted by the curse seal.
By acknowledging this, it becomes abundantly clear that if base Lee with weights is not faster than the sound attack, Sasuke without the amp is slower than base Lee with weights, after training, he easily tags Gaara while only matching Lee's weighted speed. The increase in Sasuke's speed to match that of weightless Lee results in the Sand of Gaara getting embarrassingly slow and unable to react properly to Sasuke's attacks. Thereby showing that the speed of the sand is not the speed of sound.
Sorry if I sounded like I was putting fiction against reality here. I said that as a comparison to both Touta and Lee. It is however different from the comparison you just mentioned. Slowly accelerating and building up to the speed of sound is much different that being stationary and instantly hitting the speed of sound. The ground will not be able to support you.
Also, Lee boucing off the air is something both Touta's opponent Kaito (the wolf guy Touta was fighting in the scans above) has done while fighting Touta, and Touta's other opponent Kuroumaru has done. Further proving my point that Touta is faster than 5-Gates Lee considering he blitzed both of them before
Here Touta's opponent, Kaito replicates the same thing Lee did. The process of doing this is called "Void Instant Movement" or "Midair Shundo"
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Here Kuroumaru does the same while even carrying someone
Performing a feat with a technique that you have learned is not the same as performing a feat through sheer physical stats.
For example, Human torch can light things on fire when he flies past them, not because of speed but because of the fact that his power set literally allows his to ignite his whole body in a flame. Would you say that is just as impressive as Might Gai, who can ignite the air with just pure speed? I would hope not. You see Human Torch's powerset allows him to perform the same feat as Guy, except you cannot use the argument that he was moving fast enough to ignite objects on fire with friction because his powers allow him to do it much easier than Gai, who did it with pure speed.
I don't want to sound rude, but I hope this response is a joke. You've made it pretty clear you have no idea what you're talking about in regards to the Negima/UQ Holder universe. The act of Shundo/Instant movement is just a name given to the process of moving fast by having the necessary physical speed and limited understanding of ones ki. It is not a technique that anyone without the required physical capabilities can actually do. Touta has limited understanding of ki yet has the required physical speed. Because of this, they can also run on walls. Unlike Naruto characters who can actually stand on walls and water, Touta has never displayed such capabilities but they rather rely on their raw speed to allow them to scale up vertical surfaces.
But Naruto while amped with 9 tails chakra was only able to match Neji's speed. Lee's speed is way better than Neji's (at least when he is going all out). And Naruto evaded Gaara's sand during their fight in the forest, I think it was around Naruto's Ninja Handbook or somewhere around there.
This doesn't change my point at all to be quite honest with you. Lee while releasing gates is obviously faster than Negi, Sasuke and Naruto. However that doesnt mean he's faster than Touta.
Also, I've gone through the whole Naruto vs Gaara fight and not once could I find Naruto actively eluding Gaara's sand. The whole point in you even bringing it up in the first place was to show that even though Naruto showed the ability to evade the supposed "Mach 1" sand, he still couldn't even see Lee when Lee opened the gates. I've went through the cited instance and I could not find it. I hope you don't expect me to just take your word for it especially when there is no evidence for such a statement.
Also I love how you conveniently don't respond to me pointing out the flaw in you citing a feat for Temari that takes place 128 chapters ahead of the point in which our debate is taking place. And the inquire I made on the other spectators in the vicinity when Lee dissipated from their sight. You did claim they supposedly had supersonic perceptions right? So I see no issue with you providing the evidence for said individuals. In this case being Sakura, Choji, Ino, Shikamaru, and Kankuro :)
Note to the readers: To avoid potential misunderstanding of the feat, Haku was moving via a technique that transfers his body through the reflection of numerous mirrors. He used this technique to blitz Sasuke and Naruto. Haku was not actually moving that fast with his own physical ability/combat speed
Not entirely accurate...
Haku moved on her own speed in between Mirrors that had nothing to do with reflection. Unless you want to argue that she is reflection speed (which is the speed of light and I don't think you want to do that).
Fair enough
Naruto on the other hand overwhelmed Hakku in the speed department ....BUT.... he was amped via the Nine Tails when it happened
So no, citing Haku does not translate to Lee blitzing a non-sharingan Sasuke.
I don't see your point. This same Sasuke that was perceiving and reacting to Haku got blitzed by Lee with weights on like within the same week.
He even explains it to him as he blitzes this same Sasuke who was perceiving and reacting to Haku
You make a great point but Lee in the video you posted basically does the arguing for me. The Sharingan allows Sasuke to react quicker, based on this he was able to anticipate/read where Haku was going to strike. The same can't be said for Lee because as he himself states, he is just faster than Sasuke.
I thank you for the correction on Haku's technique, because now it makes for more sense why Sasuke was able to react.
I concede to this point based on my prior misconception on how Haku's technique worked. Lee is indeed faster than Sasuke could anticipate at the time.
Also I noticed that while doing your comparison by citing Haku, you forgot to address the fact that I mentioned that Touta moved that quickly against Fate that time appeared frozen, while STILL carrying his sword set to 500 tons. I'll be looking forward to your response to this particular feat
No response needed since I already showed Lee fodderizing someone who can operate in that speed.
I hope you're not saying Sasuke could operate at the speed of Haku based on him evading Haku's attack once. That argument just wont work. It's exactly like saying Batman can operate at the speed of sound because he anticipates and dodges bullets. I hope you see where I'm coming from with this.
The feat from Touta will not be easily brushed aside. Especially considering the 500 ton weight he was carrying when he did it.
I'll not dwell on this topic and once again, I'll let the readers decide.
Never said that Lee had superior strength. I was actually acknowledging that Touta had superior lifting strength
I apologize. I misread your statement.
You seem to be pulling a lot of random numbers from out of thin air. But alas my friend, two can play at this game. Lets talk about gates. When Kakashi is explaining gates he states that they increase users power tens of tens of times. Tens is plural meaning more than one, at least 2. Two tens is 20. 20 times 20 is equal to at least a 400x increase from base stats if you use all gates. But Lee can only use five gates. I have consistantly proven that Lee is at the very least Mach 1 with weights on and easily surpasses it without weights. So lets just say that base, weightless Lee is around Mach 2. IIRC releasing the first gates gives the user a 5x physical stat boost. All of a sudden Lee moves from Supersonic to Hypersonic, and thats just the first of five gates.
So now take all of the feats I have and magnify them by five, for the first gate.
Now there are four more kaokin gates that Lee can access further increasing his speed, striking, etc... exponentially.
Umm, how exactly are these random numbers???
These are actual average weights of Intermodal Containers, with and without cargo. It makes absolutely no sense to brush this feat aside, deeming it as simply me tossing around random numbers.
While you're more than willing to brush my feat aside, you might want to not forget to actually address the other durability feats I posted along with this one.
No he actually fights on par with Gai for a prolonged period of time, able to tank his blows and even land a few decisive ones himself. They had been tricked into fighting each other.
Nice. I was unaware of this, as I don't watch the show.
Sorry for the delay. Your turn.
No problem man. I am also guilty of taking my time, mainly due to class finals being right around the conner.
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I want to conclude this debate because it seems like we've been going at it for a while now.
It's up in the air as to whether one character is faster than the other. I for one firmly believe Touta to be faster than his opponent. I see him using that to his advantage in this fight. Even if our readers were to be undecided and say both combatants are equal in speed, Touta has many other options than will undoubtedly play a factor in giving him the win in this fight.
One being the durability he brings to the table. Touta, as shown above has immense durability, having only ever been KO'ed only four times in his current life. He has shown to be able to take hits that can send his body flying faster than the speed of sound, leaving sonic boom in his trail, and he has shown to be able to effortlessly take concussive force that on previous occasions has been shown to literally be able to tear half of a massive church building away, leaving little behind.
Second factor that will aid in Touta taking the fight is his regenerative properties. He has been able to reattach severed limbs and even his head, near instantly. He has regrown his destroyed heart in seconds, reabsorbing all the lost blood back into his system. It goes on and on and the only way to defeat him in Lee's case is to rely on large scale concussive force. And given Touta's durability, this is unlikely.
Strength is a third advantage that can be utilized. As I stated in the above debate, this can be used to restrain Lee, or even used to break away from Lee's fabric restrains he typically uses when enacting the Lotus technique. Touta possesses superior strength and there's no disputing that. Able to lift 500 tons easily, pick up Semi trucks and swing around hundreds of tons on one hand, without strain.
Another factor that can play a role here is his striking. This has been shown to be superior to that of Lee's. With just a swing of his sword, the air pressure alone can cleave massive boulders. Swinging his sword against Fate Averrnacus, cause enough damage to dwarf numerous skyscrapers, and even while weakened after fighting multiple fights, a punch by him had enough force to destroy the ground below and send three heavily armored tanks into the air. If Lee were to be struck once by Touta, he will sustain considerable damage.
The main factor that will come into play will be Touta's sword. I've touched on this but I would like to reiterate. It's quite different parrying strikes from hands or feet than it is parrying strikes from a bladed weapon.....Especially a bladed weapon that can weight in excess of 500 Tons. Given the mystical nature of the blade, it has shown to be extremely durable, never chipping or needing repairs. The blade maintains it's sharp edge at all times, even after being shown literally finely slicing through solid ground like butter.
I see Touta relying on each and every one of his advantages to take on Lee. On numerous occasions has he been praised for having exceptional battle sense; even able to evade attacks that were so fast, he could not see. His innate talent for combat will play a role and I see him using that to land hits on Lee, while fully relying on his durability, speed, and regeneration.
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